A slight improvement for sure. Though I think everyone's more concerned with the new avatar art style; personally I don't think it fits your vibe, your last few were much better, but that's just me. I know there are some that are all for it.
A big issue with Vivvians writing is she gives too much of the actual world/character building in podcasts, and then chooses to not to write it into the show
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
yeah I felt like going in that I was "supposed to" know a lot more abt the characters than I rlly did. like how she said charlie and alastor apparently have similar senses of humor. would've been nice to see that... so many times I see ppl pass around canon info abt this show and I'm like "where'd that come from tho??"
I’m gonna say it, but inserting the war on heaven in the first season would be the equivalent of having Weirdmaggedon in the first season of Gravity Falls.
Half of the major plot points in this show could’ve been way more impactful if they were built up throughout S1, and THEN having a payoff for S2, instead of being shoved in all at once in the first 8 episodes. Ex: the dead angel mystery, Vaggie being an angel, visiting heaven for the first time, hell vs heaven war, etc, etc, etc.
"Great concept, poor execution" is pretty much Viv's brand now. They desperately need a strict story editor who can keep things tightly focused (especially important given the limited number of episodes).
I agree cause I think giving Viv either you give Viv too much freedom she will completely change the premise of her shows in a matter of seconds or too much restrictions and she will cram everything single plot point and sacrifice what the premise of a show is about.
That, has been the go to for cartoons since 2010, as every random project from anyone got the Green light! Rather than people who know what their doing, and have reasonable ambitions. Canada was pretty mutch the exception!
@@erikbihari3625 The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to appreciate Adult Swim for being what it is. They always take risks when it comes to greenlighting such projects, and that's why they typically pick up surrealist avant-garde humor cartoons and straight-up experimental animated shows like Superjail! and Xavier Renegade Angel. From its very inception, it was meant to be a playground for artistic expression by allowing creators with ideas their own voice that wasn’t on most network television. Vivziepop's style of humor and animation are far too polished and edgy for a cool network like Adult Swim.
@@no_0riginality937 You know, I see people defending the author with a simple narrative of independent pure artists vs big bad corporations, but writers are ALWAYS going to be under some constraints. Sure there are more and fewer cases of creative freedom, but all of them have to change and adapt to the screentime that is given to them (or rarely, chosen beforehand). Vivziepop failed at this because she had this story macerating in her head for years on end and couldn't bring herself to change this precious child. No matter what, you have to let go of the things that you love the most.
@@erikbihari3625 The more I think about it, the more I appreciate Adult Swim for being what it is. The difference was that Adult Swim is known for taking actual risks and doesn't care about marketability, which is why they pick up surreal Dadaist anti-humor comedy cartoons, and straight-up avant-garde animated shows like Superjail, Xavier: Renegade Angel, and King Star King. From its very inception, it was always meant to give odd creative artists and animators with ideas their own voice that couldn't exist on any other network television. Vivziepop's style of humor and animation are far too polished and edgy for a cool network like Adult Swim.
Charlie is a perfect example of the show, she is so committed to the plot and such that she has no time to spend with any of the characters and their growth. She barely spends time with Vaggie, and only has a second chat with Alastor in the SEVENTH episode!
She and the whole crew have no idea what their doing in the story department. The plot holes are so annoying, like how is Vaggie's opinion about the extermination being a secret to most heaven never addressed? As an ex exterminator she should have a notion, but we never see her contemplating telling her girlfriend or not since that could compromise her status as an angel (which could have been interesting but no, we needed that stupid poorly written trial ). Or how the angels didn't knew their steel could harm them when Lute used it to cut Vaggie's eye and wings. Or why the exterminators didn't just focus on Carmilla and her daughters? She only killed ONE of the FIVE they encountered, did the other four just... forgot who killed their comrade? If they cared so much for their secret then why not just make Carmilla and her daughters disappear and keep things as they were? And then they call people who see the flaws "Unfair" or "Too judgy", as if there are no rules nor proper ways to write a story.
I’m going to just say it, making the angels evil jerks is a stupid decision and bad story telling. If Vivzie wanted to make them the antagonists, she should’ve had them not be blatantly evil, but prideful and stuck in their ways. It would make way more sense and be more interesting if the angels weren’t straight evil but simply didn’t believe demons could be redeemed, becuase they are prideful in their service to God, but despite that they are good and kind beings. But having half of the angels we see be murderous lunatics is ridiculous, if an angel were actually like that they would’ve fallen and gone straight to hell already.
God doesn’t even rule Heaven here. A councile does, which is incorrect. Adam is an angel, something that is just also incorrect. Humans do not become angels. Angels are a different type of being created by God to serve other purposes (man was made to be the Steward who tends Creation, as relayed in Genesis with Adam in Eden). I could go on longer. The whole setting is a mush of half baked gnosticism that doesn’t make any sense.
@@surprisedchar2458HH isn’t supposed to be accurate to Christianity if that’s the correct way to say it. It’s just very loosely based on it, and it has its own rules. Treat it as an Alternate Universe if you will.
It's insanely obvious that the show was just meant to appeal to reddit atheists. Like Adam being an ass. You can't change Adam because his whole point is for people who hate Christianity to go "Look at how funny it is that the first human is an ass!" Even as a person who has bad experiences with Christianity, having a show basically only there to shit on it doesn't feel right.
My main problem is the show became a Heaven vs Hell story, rather than focusing on the characters actually redeeming. I honestly didn’t know the characters were dead humans and not naturally born demons until I read it online. There’s basically no way to tell the two types apart, because the characters’ lives as humans is never even mentioned in the show. Really weird that this is treated like just a fantasy world rather than the afterlife.
I thought they were just all anthropomorphic animals. I had no idea any of them were EVER human. I feel like that's a major design failure due to the art style.
@@billtree52 Yeah, combining people with different objects and animals related to their deaths and personalities makes sense, but also dehumanizes them too much.
bc she dont want us to jugde if they really deserves to be in heaven, look at angel dust, former mafia member, serial killer and drug addict, and the shows reasoning for him to be accepted in heaven is that he has shown one act of selflessness
yeah but i’d argue that the heaven vs hell thing needed to happen first in order for them to focus more on redeeming people. i think it’s best to get it out of the way first so we actually know that her plan is plausible and so that it can keep moving forward. although i do agree that it’s annoying how much lore of the show and general setting + characters is just said on some random live stream and not actually in the show lmao
"Erm if you look on the wiki it actually tells you what the sinners were like before they died 🤓🤓🤓". Someone in these comments have absolutely said this, and I hope they read this, and I hope they get mad.
That makes it EVEN MORE FRUSTRATING!! Like, they were able to piece together that lore, write it, announce it, and yet they STILL didn't put it in the damn show! They could've stretched out the whole Heaven v Hell battle for at least 2 seasons to keep it interesting while showing more depth for their characters, but they decided to rush it and pack it all into one confusing pile of mess
@@Ramsey276one You could instead watch it. It doesn't throw in details you can't understand without outside info bro. Just admit you hate gays or something lol
The funniest thing about Adam’s characterisation is that they had a perfect way for him to parallel Charlie. He could’ve started off as being a really nice, well-intentioned Angel who did the genocides as a last resort, but over time he grew more and more corrupted and cynical. Whereas Charlie still believes redemption is possible, Adam could’ve deluded himself that it’s impossible due to his own failings in his attempts, and the death of the Angel would’ve sent him over the edge. Hell, if they wanted to keep the “first human arrogance” angle they were going for, have it so Adam blames the failed redemptions on the demons rather than his own failed methods. Sure his hatred wouldn’t be wholly unfounded since the majority of demons act like that, but it could’ve been made clear that even with nicer demons he did a horrible job.
To add to this, and so my main post doesn’t become TOO big The arrogance could also be used to explain why he blames others for his own flaws. He’s the FIRST human; all other humans come from him so, in his eyes, he would “know” how all other humans behave. He’d try out methods that only work on himself rather than trying to reach out and learn about other people
I’ve said this and I’ll say it again, they should’ve used Adam Caedmon instead of Human Adam. Playing a far more logical and calm character, but he’s too set in his ways to fix it. Human Adam could’ve been a demon that became desperate to return to Heaven, but he was desperate that when he thought the first purge occurred, he would’ve been killed by it. Eve or someone else could tell them about this, it still shows Heaven hypocrisy that even the first human couldn’t even make it in. Having Adam being an actual foil to Charlie’s hopeful and fun loving side with Caedmon’s calm, analytical, and rule bound ways.
When I see Adam's character he doesn't give off the feeling of being the first man no instead he feels like a douchebag roommate who does nothing all day but gets high and just does sex jokes everytime you talk to him That's probably really specific but that's what Adam character feels like to me
@@Perdix64or if you want it to be biblically accurate, have it be Michael instead. He was the one partially responsible for taking Lucifer down and he’s often seen as Heaven’s prime soldier
Hazbin Hotel really opened my eyes to how genuinely screwed up the pacing for serialized cartoons are nowadays. It's like they're afraid that if they don't get every plot point in a single season, their show will immediately get cancelled. Which while that's a pretty sad possibility in this day and age, it makes the experience way less satisfying because we're blowing past important, emotional events that could have hit harder if more time was given to them.
My advice for any showrunner is to start by plotting out only Season 1. Treat that like it’s the only one you’ll ever get, but don’t cover ALL your bases. Look at SpongeBob Season 1- it establishes every major character and dynamic while still leaving a lot of room open for future misadventures. Heck, look at Steven Universe Season 1 and its slow burn approach to getting the show set up for later seasons.
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
@@eatatjoes6751 it kinda confuses me, cause like wouldn't you WANT to give people more content to watch so they stay on your platform longer??? So they have fun binging stuff? And then streaming services wanna complain that no one's watching new stuff like my guy, how are we going to get invested in characters where we either don't have enough to learn to love them or their show could get dropped at the snap of a greedy exec's fingers 🙄 never forgiving Netflix for Inside Job
Making Heaven a corrupt system was very cliche. I wish that they did something else with it in order to make it more of an incentive that most of the cast of characters would want to achieve.
I think it could have been worse. What we see of Heaven makes it seem like a genuinely nice afterlife, despite the problems with the higher ups. We also see that most angels aren't as bad as Adam and that most of the angels are unaware of the extermination. While Sera might not have much sympathy for Hell's denizens, she seems like she genuinely thinks that Hell is a potential threat to Heaven while Adam seems to want to kill demons solely out of spite.
Right, if Heaven is just as bad as hell or corrupt then what's the point of the plot? What's the purpose of the premise of the story? Especially in the show hell doesn't seem all that horrid of a place. It's not really an eternal pit of punishment more like a night club for furries
Technically, Heaven’s system isn’t corrupt. It’s just misguided in some way because the Elder Angels just don’t think it’s possible for a Sinner to be redeemed, and Charlie barely having any evidence as to why they can be definitely didn’t help either. However, the Exterminators are definitely corrupt assholes.
If you told Vivziepop to write the SpongeBob pilot, Help Wanted, she’d find a way to have plankton, Sandy, boating school, and Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy included in just the first episode.
Something that is really hard to accept when making a show is that you can’t do everything you want to. If you’re making the show yourself then you can but in most cases you’re not gonna be doing that. You’re gonna have to sacrifice some things. Hazbin only had 8 episodes and way too much was shoved into those episodes, which made it suffer immensely. Viv needed to realize that she couldn’t do everything she wanted and that she needed to cut some stuff
I totally agree. Especially because some things were still left open ended in the finale (wtf is Alastor, Charlie's mom, etc). So I wouldn't be bothered if they had chosen to cut more stuff or leave more things open ended
Probably would help if she just decided to make a book or graphic novel to fill in the details or do storylines that couldn't make it. That's what manga writers do with light novels. Was even shocked to learn even a hated series like sword art online is apparently FAR better in the light novel.
Cut some stuff and prioritize others. Why have whole episode on eating people town? Why introduce the v’s and give them big villain songs only to have them sit out at the moment of action? I heard she wanted to make a spin off show about the v’s, and it really shows. Since she didn’t let them be characters in this show.
Realistically the angel vs demon war should’ve been a season two thing and the first season should’ve been more about the hotel and character growth between characters just so that it doesn’t make it feel like a rushed character arc (aka Angel Dust)
I’ve watched hundreds of Hazbin rants and reviews and you’re the first one to point out how odd it is that Cherry Bomb just inexplicably sticks with the hotel at the end
@@DrawciaGleam02 that is a very good possibility, I also figured it was for Sir Pentious. But it’s still odd having her act like she’s hotel staff now, unless she dips after the hotel is rebuilt.
@@cordyceps7531 Honestly, I'm fine if she stays. I think it's a nice idea for sinners to initially join the hotel for different reasons other than redemption. THEN they warm up to going to heaven as time passes.
@@cordyceps7531 I think it's best you just not think about it and move on, Viv's shows are not supposed to make sense, dont expect the show to explain why..
There a reason why the term "kill your darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
yeah i legit root for angels to end hell because in the big fight the "opressed underdogs" literally lost nobody while evil opressing angels lost entire legion
I suspect Viv not doing this is a big reason why her work tends to be contentious. "Helluva Boss" gets criticism for seeming to jump from one plot point to the next while "Hazbin Hotel" got flak for trying to fit too many characters and plotlines into eight episodes.
I think Hazbin Hotel having such a big fandom this early is part of what's so detrimental to it. I think a big part of the "slice of life" content of HH *is* understood to be "canon" as Vivzie is so happy to declare so anytime she finds fanart/fanfic/fanwork she likes... It's like... like it's not actually a series but rather a multimedia franchise relying on the fans making up funny interactions between the cast while the cartoon gives big situations to shake things up.
Especially when a lot of fan theories are in the show. Vaggie being an angel instead of a sinner who took her own life. Alastor and Vox having beef with each other because they were possibly friends instead of just a petty rivalry between a boomer and someone who is electronically progressive. Alastor manipulating Charlie because he's plotting against the hotel... I agree with that take with how fans are carrying the show and HH is fanfic/fanart fodder because even they sometimes along with webcomics have more compelling plots. It's like the creator went on social media to find material to write Hazbin
@@blackchickiedee7 There is a fancomic where Lucifer tells Charlie "So you're into girls? Nice. Me too." And then he ended up having a pretty similar line of dialogue in the actual show. There's also a comic where Valentino says something like "I've killed people for doing less than half of the shit you pulled" and in the show he says "I've killed bitches for less than this attitude you're giving me!" It does make me wonder if some of the show's interactions were drawn from fan material.
@@Corrector1 wow... and also, someone said that there was a comic on YT where the main cast's outfits looked very similar to how they are in the show, especially Charlie's and Vaggie's. 😬😬😬If it's true, that the creator took ideas from people online I'm like, y'all deserve some coins lol you should be getting paid at this point
Perfect use of Steven Universe and the unfair "filler episode" complaint as an example of people not understanding the importance of building up characters and a sense of status quo before you do big moments or large shifts. You need this connective tissue or else nothing feels earned.
I love Steven universe filler episodes. It makes you understand the characters more while giving little clues of the diamond authority. There was so many foreshadowing and alot of people just ignored it
I watched SU without being too involved in the fandom and let me tell you, I was super unaware that "fans" were complaining about the "filler" episodes. I super enjoyed SU’s pacing cuz I treated it as a TV show (back when its shown weekly) and took it in piece by piece and appreciate the minute, little details. This is the right way to get attached. Nowadays its all for the sake of consuming it really fast or for binge watching. Its all a blur. Its all Cocomelon in 2× speed. Nothing makes sense while they convince us that it does. The Steven Universe bandwagon hate it got was so unfair that it genuinely hurt.
I think what didn’t help those complaints was the shitty schedule that CN put SU through (especially since SU was airing around the time the TTG takeover was happening)
@@WheeinpaintAgreed; at first, I really wasn’t a huge fan of how the show constantly had the “2 slice of life/episodic episodes for every 1 plot-focused/serious episode” formula all the way to the end. But seeing some of the episodes have made me rethink that position. It really bugs me how Viv is trying to force in so much stuff with varying tones for each episode, and it really showed in the latest episode of HB, while Rebecca Sugar in comparison, acknowledges wanting to bring justice to each of the writers’ ideas by having episodes about them while using foreshadowing.
@@nitsuga_but_not_really I think what really peeved me about Hazbin Hotel is how desperate it is to show big ass moments and character developments as soon as they imply it rather than building up their characters to become more likeable so that the big moment's aren't interpreted as a crutch. The fact that they showed Angel Dust's trauma in EPISODE FOUR of the first season is a lot to me, and something that Sugar would've saved for the second season, or even beyond for more emotional impact. Not a watcher of HH, but I find it super suspicious. That's like showing the dark shit from Season 3 of Moral Orel in Season 1. It has to _earn_ it. Vivziepop has gone on record saying that she wants to be like BoJack Horseman, but the thing about is that it deepened the dark themes of the show over time; we have BoJack not understanding that he was at fault for destroying a friendship in Season 1: dark stuff, but pretty normal and relatable, and then his misdeeds get worse and worse every season. Viv really needs to take it slow and leave some room for ideas to grow and be fitted over time.
Ever since Zoophobia Viv likes to do those kinds of stories I call "an OC showcase" You got an environment full of bizarre characters You got the kinda main one but mostly introductory to the cast, so you have reasons to know the bizarre cast better You dig into their backstories The backstory takes more place than actual story
it's funny because there ARE plenty of shows that do this and do it well. Mostly shonen anime. One Piece is notorious for having a huge cast of characters but people still love it. Naruto, Fairy Tail, Soul Easter, My Hero, the list goes on and on. The problem becomes being unable to utilize your huge cast to amplify/show different sides of your main cast, because *that's what they should be doing*. Not to mention the fact that a show that has a 2.5 hour watch time doesn't lend itself to a big cast of characters at all. The anime I named has at least 50 episodes, with some even going into the couple of hundreds.
Literally I just described HH (and Vivziepop media in general) as feeling more like an "OC parade" rather than actual stories, because it's what they are. Look, I get it, love for your OC's can be a powerful thing, but when telling a story, OC's are tools, actors, to tell a narrative. If you care more about your OC's than telling a story then stick to posting about them online, nothing wrong with that, but when you want to tell a compelling story, your characters need to work FOR the narrative in order for the narrative to work for them.
Considering the show's literally about redeeming sinners their backstory actually matters. So you just kinda have a problem with the show existing, I can see it as you seethe through your teeth. Chillax, bro.
@Helll your comment got deleted. Btw the show is about redeeming sinners and you didn't watch the show because the "war" is a skirmish in the final episode of the pilot, you talk like the plot can't go both ways or have a b-plot, you're picking at nothing and you didn't watch the show.
Honestly, the more I see the slightest overreaction to the slightest bit of criticism, the more I realise just how immature the fandom is. I’m a fan of Hazbin, and as long as the criticism is fair, I’m all here for it.
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 No it usaully IS But guess what, that stuff does not get covered The defenders , Take every little bit of dumb criticism super seriously but then when there is actually well constructed criticism you just lump it in with the bad and ignore it so they can live in a fantasy world where Viv is perfect
@@mkgaming5823 There is only one criticism I agree with and that the show needs to work on it's pacing. But other than that, I feel that the rest of the criticism even when it's legit is flawed. But whenever I offer up a counterargument you all throw a bitch fit like I'm supposed to just shut up and accept your word as the gospel. You wanna give criticism? you better be prepared to defend your stance as with any debate. Viv isn't perfect, but you know what? Her shows are perfect for me and that's enough.
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 There's nothing wrong with criticism and no matter how much you like the show, you cannot pretend as if no one should criticize Vivziepop. She isn't perfect, her shows aren't perfect, and her writing isn't perfect. There's a mountain of legitimate flaws that you can bring up which would make these shows much better and I see no reason as to why we shouldn't be trying to make her work better.
I remember Vaggie was originally in Hell because she took her own life. Imagine if Charlie tried to redeem/convince Heaven that someone like that deserved a second chance. How would Charlie react if she Vaggie was so desperate to escape her old life, only to end up in Hell. How depressed was Vaggie on Earth? Why was she depressed? Had Vaggie self-harmed or isolated herself during depressive episodes? Was Charlie aware of any of this? How would Charlie react if Vaggie got redeemed? Could Charlie visit or would they break up? All that potential, but nope. Vaggie’s an angel now. And I genuinely doubt we’ll ever get another sinner who unsubscribes from life.
And also this whole angel thing not only makes little sense with how Vaggie acts (Yeah. I wonder what kind of weapon can possibly hurt an angel, I can't possibly know and for some reason my back and empty eyesocket itch whenever I think about it), but also it provides nothing to the plot as her being an angel and having wings is redundant detail and in the final fight it barely mattered as I don't even think she flew on her wings even once.
She should've stayed a former human because it makes things way more compelling and have impact as Vaggie is the conduit to what Charlie should consider with the kind that makes her up, plus being half Sinner and Angel does more stuff. Angel and Demon isnt even a good pairing, we see the difference with the two Dante's and why Classic Dante is better vs Reboot Dante.
Not to mention, it makes sense why she would even define herself through being Charlie's protective girlfriend, because Charlie hazbin (laugh you cretins) her only source of positivity and genuine love if she were someone who self-deleted, espescially if it were because of a lack of positive influences on her life. Like seriously, the potential!
@@ajakakakakback when she had that backstory, her design was WAY dif iirc, but when her official design we see in the pilot came out it looked so similar to the shot in the intro of the angels we saw ig it was changed to her being a former angel bc of the connection
I think the way they portrayed Sir Pentious's sacrifice for the Hotel was also really bad. The fact he just gets backhandedly oneshot by Adam who then drops a one-liner is so anticlimactic, I don't even know how they thought this would be appropriate.
yeah I don't get why they didn't make it an actual dramatic moment; I thought for sure sir pentious was gonna fire his attack, adam would get the classic anime moment where he was totally unscathed, and we'd get 1 last look at sir p's face (maybe he'd be horrified, maybe a tear would roll down his cheek, maybe he'd just give his egg bois a comforting smile, smth like that) before adam kills him. adam just obliterating him before he even fired the attack felt like a joke / like we weren't supposed to care abt sir pentious
Ryan Johnson levels of subversion. Oh, you thought the comic relief character would have a satisfying arc by standing up for his friends. Wouldn't it be fucking hilarious if we reduced him to atoms in a single frame before he could earn his development?
It was so bad i genuinely found it so funny how the rest of the cast just dropped to the ground crying without taking a second to process anything, then after 5 seconds stood up and went on with the fight
Biggest problem is the show basically bends over backwards to try and justifiy Charlie's whole Redemption thing and makes it look easy when it's not. You can't just take someone whose a murderer, rapist, or some other horrible thing, have them apologize and shit and just magically redeem themselves to where they can get into Heaven.
According to most biblical sources you literally can. As long as you repent for your sins before death, which is basically a religious form of an apology to the almighty, you’re automatically forgiven for all of it. Robot chicken even did a whole skit about that dynamic.
@@thefanwithoutaface8105 except that isn’t the premise. Charlie’s ideas of redemption are intentionally painted as an oversimplification of the issue, bordering on childish, due to her overly optimistic view of the world due to her ‘Disney princess persona’. Especially in episode 2, which is why nobody takes her plan seriously in the slightest. Angel is only there for free room and board, Sir Pentious came because she was the only one to give him the approval she so desperately craved, Alastor tells her to her face that her plan is stupid, and Vaggie clearly as a sense of underlying doubt. It’s not a story about sinners trying to obtain redemption, it’s a story about Charlie trying to prove that her ideas have merit and stand up against all the naysayers who claim she’s a dreamer with her head in the clouds. From Heaven who acts as a bigoted group believing sinners are always beyond saving (a lot like you actually) to the overlords in Hell who actively benefit from the broken systems. And speaking of the overlords, Vivizepop went on record saying that while the hotel residents are good people trying to be better the Vees (Vox, Velvette, and Valentino) are bad people trying to be worse. So the creator of the show literally said that not everyone is capable of redemption and not everyone can be saved, so I don’t think the show is ‘bending over backwards’ to try and justify Charlie’s redemption plan when it presents it as a complex issue torn between various social structures. Do you actually watch the show or just get your information from isolated, out of context clips that are viewed through a negative mindset?
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 Yeah I did watch the show, from episode 1 to 8. Also Bigoted? Sinners are literal murderers and rapists, they are scumbags and assholes who are being punished for doing evil things. And don't give me that "not all are" bullshit excuse. Like just Stop Pointed out in this very video the show never shows us any individuals who are in Hell that aren't demeneted blood hungry psychos who'd immediately murder you or me if they saw us on the street.
@@thefanwithoutaface8105 angel dust, husk, sir Pentious, Carmilla Carmine, and Cherri bomb immediately spring to mind. All of them have redeeming characteristics, all of them have virtues accompanying their vices. You’re acting exactly like the close minded bigots that were lambasted in the song ‘Hell is forever’. Believing that nobody can change and see the entire world in a strict black and white binary.
I had a big problem with Adam's personality. I dont know...i feel like he should've gotten a "holier than thou but secretly evil" prim and posh vibe just like Claude Frollo from hunchback of notre dame, instead of the surfer dude douchebag that somehow got into heaven Nonetheless, Alex Brightman was the only reason i found the character tolerable
honestly I think a few things could have been done that would have improved Adam as a character, such as giving him actual depth and, well, *not* having the character be Adam. Ironically enough, the Bible has a character that fits Hazbin Adam's description almost to a T. Anyone here remember Samson?
I feel like Hazbin Hotel is one of those shows that would actually BENEFIT from having filler episodes, it just needs to slow the hell down and dedicate episodes to the characters, their relationships with other characters, etc etc.
tbf helluva boss is abt killing humans so it makes sense the human world is more involved. but I agree it shouldn't be ignored in hazbin hotel, both the hotel and IMP cater to sinners after all. I hope the lives of angel, alastor, etc are factored in someway
@@Ismazure a sad yaoi fanfic for 2 losers who cant express their feelings Yeah Tbh its fucking boring Helluva boss would've been better if it was like a monster of the week episodic show
@@mdalos0624 yeah, And on top of that, some of the episodes are not even salvageable, for example the one in the cabin, where they show how useless Moxi is not only doing absolutly anything, and they show how superior Milly is in everything, tell me, when Moxy has had an episode where he shows that he doesn't need anyone? And the songs in that episode were horrible too
I’d say HH’s biggest problem was it’s fumbling of it’s core concept: REDEMPTION. The entire point of the hotel was to redeem sinners, but Charlie had, and still has, no evidence that redemption is even possible, so there was no reason for the Angels to listen to her. On top of that, people like Adam and Lute show that things that are considered sinful can still be done in Heaven, so what’s the incentive to actually REDEEM yourself? Edit: I believe this video will help as it articulates my opinion better I have. ruclips.net/video/8J9LDJsbWdk/видео.htmlfeature=shared
well heaven is shown to be a cool place even tho the ppl running it are pricks. better to spend ur afterlife in a safe, cheery utopia than a craphole city where u gotta worry abt gang wars and cannibals and w'ever else on a daily basis, right? but as lucifer said, heaven isn't as great as charlie thinks and I hope they keep expanding on that beyond the higher-ups being jerks. like showing more dark spots in heaven as there are more bright spots in hell (not the most original idea but)
I don’t want that! The whole point of the show is redeeming sinners to get to Heaven. If Heaven is as bad, if not worse, then Hell… then what’s the point of trying to redeem yourself?
@@duncanharrell5009 it rlly depends on the direction ig, but I saw someone give the idea that charlie's focus would shift from helping sinners get redeemed, to generally making hell a better place, once she becomes disillusioned w/ heaven. still helping ppl, but no longer trying to impress heaven. but again, idk if they'll go that route; they'll prolly stick w/ the idea of heaven being a utopia and hell being a craphole for at least some time
@@duncanharrell5009 To be honest, Heaven looks like a preppy town for snobs. Like, it's way better than Hell, but beside that it acts like Earth: it have restaurants, its own economy, politicians, war criminals, brands. Heaven is just better version of Earth, while Hell is worser version of Earth in this universe.
genuinely what is it with animated tv shows not even maxxing 10 episodes runtime for a full season nowadays? like... hazbin hotel, fionna and cake, scott pilgrim takes off, arcane, invincible; except the last two were at least given 40 minutes per episode instead of 24. is giving writers in the animation industry like two seconds to establish their story a new trend or something? i swear they used to be much more generous.
The angels are the most wasted in terms of potential I think. They could’ve been characters that snapped Charlie down to reality. The reason for declining Charlie’s idea could’ve been because of her not having proof that the hotel could work. Adam could’ve revealed more details about him and Lilith’s relationship; making Charlie realize that her mom wasn’t as good as she thought she was. Maybe the angels could’ve even taken over the hotel and actually start making it better and help Charlie realize what it takes to redeem people.
Yeah, Charlie REALLY needed more evidence about the hotel's success before doing that court case..... If she hadn't been so foolhardy then, maybe the hotel could've been used as a place for sinners to hide during the exterminations. And eventually, a few sinners might have joined the hotel just because they liked the vibe there. Just saying, most likely sinners are going to join the hotel for reasons OTHER than getting a spot in heaven.....
@@DrawciaGleam02 Why would they even want to go to heaven? From the looks of it the place is just as immoral as hell, just it's better at hiding it. It feels like the idea of heaven in this show was completely fumbled
@@redwithcoffee619 Yeah I wish we knew more about heaven..... Right now it's basically like people dreaming about going to Disneyland, but when they go it's a bad travel experience. 😆
@@DrawciaGleam02 The entire point of heaven is redemption and becoming what a human should aspire to be. The topic is up for debate as to the details but the general sense is virtue, honor, kindness, justice, discipline, ect. Angels should be honest even if the truth may hurt, believing in her cause but making it very clear she has no idea what she's doing. But instead this.. "interpretation" completely drops the ball. She gets no support or guiding hand, no wisdom, not even protection in such a hostile environment when again Heaven would be in full support of what she's trying to to achieve. Looking at the Hunchback of Notre Dame, the main villain claims to be a man of God and yet this couldn't be further from the truth. In the end, he's not rewarded simply because he cheered for the right team, he was met with fire and visions of demons before his terrible end. In this show however, I get the feeling the writer doesn't understand that God would hate more than half the angels seen in this show.
And then she banks on crude language and edgy humor. Like, its meant to be a mature show, but its only 'mature' in the sense that an edgy 14 year old thinks is mature. Its surface level at best.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 Even The Amazing World of Gumball, despite being a Cartoon Network show that was rated PG, not only had way better humor than this supposedly "adult" show but also managed to be way more clever and edgier than the entire first season of Hazbin Hotel. Some jokes are adult too and have good shock value, like that cutaway gag involving the Watterson family destroying their computer after Nicole looks up Darwin's browser history, or that one scene where Gumball opens a door only for him to accidentally catch Banana Joe watching "fruit porn" on his laptop (which is just a video of a man peeling a fruit). And what makes it better is that since TAWOG is a kids' show, you are thrilled to see how many inappropriate adult jokes they somehow can get away with. Of course, there are boundaries so it doesn’t get too explicit to the point that it's repetitive and gross. That's the difference between these two shows. TAWOG has an actually good writing team and the comedy happens very organically because the characters are all goofballs living in a wacky world, while Hazbin Hotel tries way too hard to be funny to adults by relying on forced swearing and edgy jokes 24/7, but doesn't have good writers to execute them properly and clashes badly with its emotional moments.
I KNOW RIGHT? Despite him always being my favourite Hazbin character you can completely remove him and the show is exactly the same. Which to me just says I would have loved for him to have his own show instead lol.
@@RJS2003Well, I love Alastor but he does have his problems. It is so inconsistent that it is clear that the team does not know what route it is going to take; whether the pasifist, neutral or genocidal. We know he's hiding things, but his behavior changes from scene to scene. But its inconsistency is the only consistent thing about the series.
alastor reminds me of villainous' black hat- super powerful evil entity supplying power to the main cast, and the most recognizable character of the cast irl. but instead of doing what villainous did- recognizing that black hat was best as a background driving force- they just...kept alastor in the main cast, doing nothing. they desperately want us to think he's super cool and powerful when he's basically a glorified lamp. i don't even like black hat and i can admit he was done ten times better than alastor. it feels really insecure, like the writers (or producers) were worried people wouldn't stick around if the fan favorite wasn't front and center 24/7.
@@geet9830but Al isn’t shown as powerful in the show. He lose to Adam and metaphorically lose to Lucifer. You don’t usually have your super cool powerful character look like that
I do actually miss the trend in cartoons for season 1's being dedicated to "A Day In The Life" plots because those types of episodes made me care enough about the characters to root for them and understand their emotions in the big battles later on. Steven Universe's original ending actually worked for me because I knew beforehand how the corrupted gems and the crystal gems themselves felt about corruption. Seeing centipeedle get to interact with Steven for that brief moment warmed my heart.
It's not a bad way to do things, but I feel a lot of shows that develop from episodic plots to ongoing plots end up taking too long to get to the point. "Steven Universe", "Amphibia" and "Star Vs The Forces of Evil" are all shows where I've had this problem. Given the set up of the pilot, "Hazbin Hotel" does feel like a show that would have been better off starting off as character-focused before building up a bigger plot.
The first season did not need an antagonist at all. It should have just stuck with its own characters and let the bigger plots happen in the next season.
One thing that constantly bugged me about hazbin hotel that nobody else has seemed to address or feel the same about it just how underwhelming the characters are veiwed as by other characters, i'm not exactly sure how to describe it but such as Rosie falling to recognise THE princess of hell, how easy it was for Vaggie to get into the angel killers place, Alastor having a petty fight with literal lucifer, it just feel like these characters should have more weight to them -- this is more looking at it aswell as looking at in the the context of Helluva Boss but Stolas is seen as more royalty then literally the princess and king of hell, just annoyed me more then anything.
I completely agree with you! Like, for example, Charlie is the princess of Hell but get disrespected like she’s a commoner or low rank demon. Even though she’s obviously shelter, she shouldn’t be that naive. In episode 7, she didn’t recognize that Alastor took her to Cannibal Town but she should had because she’s the princess! It would had made much more sense if she had been an angel who came to hell to help the sinners redeem themselves.
watching Charlie, the princess of hell, get disrespected by Valentino, who is way below her in caste, absolutely broke the immersion for me. Like girl, YOUR FRIEND IS BEING RAPED BY HIM!!! DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN CRY ABOUT IT
I agree especially with Lucifer and Alastor. But I think it's why people are saying fans are carrying the show. Just for example, even before HH came out, people shipped the two and the joke of "haha, Charlie calls Alastor daddy too" was being played around with. So, it's possible that the creator felt like she didn't need to build upon characters interacting or meeting each other because fans already did that with their work. It's not an excuse or anything, it's still bad, just maybe that's what could have happened which I wouldn't be surprised
To the people who say that Vivziepop explains lore in her podcasts in response to others complaining that it isn't in the show, let me put this in perspective for you. Imagine if Rebecca Sugar did this with Steven Universe. Imagine if she never explained the concept of fusion in the show but did in an interview or something. Wouldn"t that SUCK? You shouldn't have to rely on outside sources to explain important lore thats apart of a show. That should already be explained. I excuse Helluva Boss for this since its still a web series, but HH is now held at the same standard as every other animated show. It's not excusable.
I feel like Adam's reasoning could have been so much easier and better justified if it was simply as revenge for Lucifer getting both of his wives (Lilith and Eve) in the sack. "Lucifer stole not one, but BOTH of my wives... so I'm going to systematically slaughter his people every year in retribution" would have probably played a LOT better than "I just do it cause I can and it's fun." It would at least have given him proper motivation for his actions. I also would have liked to have seen Lute fleshed out more. Most of the exorcists just go along with it because "Well, our boss is telling us to do this, so... we do it." because who are they, low-level angels, to decline/deny an order from someone who's basically 2nd only to God in a lot of eyes or such. But Lute is different... clearly... but we never get a good sense as to why.
I get people whine about "sympathetic villains" but Adam could have that motivation of revenge and still be a villain. People conflate understandable motive with automatic sympathy which isn't true.
@@haveagoodday7021 I think people don't have a problem with sympathetic villains so much as shows/movies/novels acting like a sad backstory is a replacement for a redemption arc
From what I heard from Viv’s livestream, podcasts, or QnA Whenever is Sinner is killed via angelic weapons their souls and essences becomes embedded into hell, which explains the eyes all over hell However take that with how you will since this information has not been officially confirmed in the show.
@@no_0riginality937 I hate how out of show sources are being used to explain away unexplained stuff that NEEDS to be explained in the show. It just shows either bad writing, or very bad pacing that they couldn't explain necessary world details in the show itself
It's like you read my mind. My friend and I both watched this show and she didn't notice any of this stuff while I noticed a lot of it. I went to the Internet to see if anyone else shared my criticisms but a good number of the talking points I saw were as shallow as "Viv put a lot of gay people in hell: therefore she thinks gay people belong in hell". It made me feel like I was taking crazy pills.
@@DrawciaGleam02 Even if characters did go to hell for being gay that wouldn't be a point against the show because A: a big theme of the show is how some people are in hell unfairly and B: it's Christian hell so it would make sense that gay people would be in hell.
One idea that I wrote up for Adam's motivation is that since his days as the first human in heaven, he's lost the esteem and special privileges that came with it. With heaven gaining more rules and becoming more and more boring for his eternal existence, he decides to implant the idea that the demons in hell may uprise and that he should go down to kill them once a year. However, it's all just a mask to go spend time in a place with no rules where he can commit all the sin, indulge in all his vices, and kill whoever he pleases annually. Essentially playing god amongst being far weaker than he is to enjoy the lawlessness of hell without consequence. (Also, adding this, the reason he hates sinners so much in this version is because both of his wives gave into sin before they could ascend to heaven, leaving him alone in paradise with nobody to spend it with which lead to his spiral into boredom.)
Especially when you consider that the last thing he says before his death was that because mankind from him, people (including everyone else in hell) should be worshipping Adam. I’m guessing that because he kills the sinners in hell, which are meant to be bad people, he probably sees it as a opportunity that if he’s killing bad people and with the fear that the residents of hell could potentially uprise against heaven, he wants to be seen as a hero and believes that he should be worshipped as such. But I’m not sure if Season 2 will explore that idea or not, if Adam does end up being in hell after dying in the S1 finale.
With Sir Pentious, he was already on track to be a good person. He just needed to give up the whole "I need to be a big villain" delusion. He wasn't a bad guy to begin with. Based on what's in the show, we don't even know why he would be in hell to begin with. He's nice with few negatives, as he seems to be the only one who wanted to be "a good guy".
Apparently when Sir P was alive, he was an industrial tycoon, who owned several factories and sweatshops in Victorian England. Like what Just Stop said, the show would’ve benefited if they’d dived into the characters back stories of when they were alive.
short reply: I think the issue is redemption is such a complex issue but the show so far has treated it like such a simple one longer reply: what u said was basically part of the problem---we don't know why sir p is in hell. does he deserve it? based on what we see, not rlly. but we see so little. to us he's "nice w/ a few negatives" but was he always like that? if he was a baby murderer when he was alive would u still say "he's not bad, he just needed to chill out and be himself"? see what I mean? I didn't take as much issue w/ the whole thing as just stop did, but I had similar thoughts
@@tiablue9106I mean it the mystery of the show so it’s not a writing flaw. I do wanna add that things like Just not believing in god can deem you to be a sinner in some religions
@@Yami-mugoni613 But this obviously doesn't follow the Christian faith too closely, otherwise we wouldn't have Lilith at all. So the point of saying "the smallest thing sends you to hell" while Adam gets to be in heaven for no reason is moot.
@@Yami-mugoni613in a show abt redeeming sinners, what the sinners did to end up in hell shouldn't rly be a mystery. that should be like a major part of their development, shouldn't it? like u said, did they do smth as minor as not believe in god, or did they nuke an orphanage? I doubt the series is done unraveling the rules of this universe, hence why I don't think it's that big a problem now. but given that sir pentious has already gone to heaven, I was just surprised the series was cool w/ "eh he wasn't a bad guy to begin with so he didn't have to do much to redeem himself" and I hope the rest of the show doesn't brush that under the rug--how many others are in hell who seemingly don't deserve it?
The problem with Charlie is that she's clearly an expression of Vivziepop. When she says, "the hotel isn't working," she doesn't mean "the hotel isn't redeeming anyone," but rather, "nobody is believing in the hotel." And that's because Vivziepop's response to criticism or failure of her shows is not "my show is flawed and needs improvement" but rather "people need to recognize how great my ideas are." It's the same problem all these self-insert characters have. They are static, and all the dynamic characters change to validate them. Once upon a time, editors would make sure this kind of character never got a budget, and it was restricted to fanfiction, but it seems like a lot of big money is going into shows with this kind of main character. Some people call every main character a Mary Sue, but sometimes it's actually true, and it's been happening a lot more the last decade.
It's funny because Vivi even wrote daddy issues into Charlie (like she does with literally every protagonist she writes) as if the self-insert allegations weren't bad enough with the MC for Hazbin Hotel. The show is almost a meta-commentary on itself, with Charlie's struggle to get the hotel seen as a legitimate venture being representative of Viv's own struggle to get her shown to be a success.
By the way, a really important detail you missed that literally contradicts the entire premise of the show is when Charlie tells Lucifer's tale during the intro of the first episode. Keep in mind she is the one telling the story, she is reading it out and even Vaggie heard her. She states in the story that the exterminations are made with the intention to prevent Hell from rising up against Heaven... Like, she KNOWS the real intention of the exterminations, she KNOWS they don't actually give a shit about overpopulation and that it's all about a corrupted system deliberately oppressing them. So how come she later on still thinks Redemption is the only way to save his people and somehow convience the angels??? As small as this moment is, that small line throws away the entire premise.
Not really, her goal was to create a pipeline to heaven that sinners could take to redeem themselves. Which would simultaneously weaken Hell’s pool of foot-soldiers while also strengthening heaven’s own numbers. But more than that, it would end the exterminations outright which bred resentment towards heaven and turned them into a common enemy that could unify all the warring gangs and factions in hell. Thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy
The interesting thing about Charlie's "daddy issues" for me is that it was a facet of her character that was established so differently in the pilot. She just leaves her mom, who is too busy to answer, an awkward phone message. And in that message full of self-doubt, she wonders if "Dad was right about me." It's a heavy moment that says a lot about her relationship with both parents without outright spelling it out. It is also more dramatic than I think the final show wanted, or rather, needed to do with Charlie and Alastor's relationship. The show clearly wanted that swift resolution in order to make the Heaven stuff in the next episode happen, so for better or worse, playing it for laughs from the start with blunt "haha, daddy issues" jokes makes it easier to swallow the idea that they can solve the bulk of their problems in a single episode. That's just my guess though; it could have been a choice made separately from the desire to cram so much into eight episodes.
Yeah but if they made Lucifer a looming sinister presence in Charlie's life, then he wouldn't be a wholesome adorkable Tumblr sexyman, now would he? And that would break the viviziepop writing creed.
yeah if the pilot's supposed to be canon then I hope they address at some point what this "dad was right about me" means in the series' context. bc the worst I can see the lucifer we met saying abt charlie is "you're wasting your time with this hotel thing" (ignoring how in the series lucifer seemingly didn't know abt the hotel at all before his visit). I can't see him calling her a failure to her face or smth... they built up charlie's daddy issues like that and as much as I love lucifer, he feels disconnected from the idea of him we got based on what charlie had said--not just in the pilot but in the series. she said she and lucifer have never been close but then sings w/ him abt how they love each other more than anything. this dude who seems to adore his daughter rlly ignored her for like 7 yrs bc he was depressed? basically I'm saying I hope they don't act like charlie and lucifer just have a perfect relationship now, and expand on the mistakes lucifer has made
Lucifer feels like he was being built up as a much more flawed character. It feels like they changed his personality without changing his relationship with Charlie and the end result is that I'm not even sure why there's any conflict between them to begin with.
It was another wasted potential in the show. The creator stated that Lucifer doesn't really support Charlie nor the hotel, heck he didn't really even care about the residents all because he enjoyed his status as King and had to keep a status quo for the exterminations to happen. When I read that, to me, I thought he was a sinister, crafty tyrant in cahoots with Heaven or something but nope we were just left with generic 'it's all better in a matter of seconds' because we sang about it
It also doesn't help that we've never shown 'why' Charlie has Daddy Issues. Like was it due to the separation? That flasback where Lillith takes an infant Charlie from Lucifer? That doesn't work since when we're introduced to Lucifer he's just screwing around with rubber ducks, when he gets the call from Charlie he drops everything to go visit her without a moment's notice. So where is this estrangement coming from? Charlie could have called Lucifier at any moment and he would have been there near-instantaneously.
I am so glad you brought up how overlooked it is that we never really go over what sinners did when they were alive. Critics rarely bring this topic up, which I find baffling since you'd think that'd be an easy avenue to better explore characters like Angel Pentious. It would give the audience a better gauge of where they sit as well in terms of if they can be redeemed or not.
The best way I can articulate my thoughts on this show is as follows: If I have to rely on fan material (fics, comics, etc) to get more enjoyment out of these worlds and characters that genuinely interest me because the ACTUAL SHOW left me feeling so underwhelmed - rather than enjoy it as supplimentary side content on top of the world as it is, something is seriously wrong.
A lot of the great parts of Hazbin Hotel are concepts that are done infinitely better in The Good Place which dives into the reasons the characters got where they got and how they could be redeemed. And what redemption even means.
I think pacing and coherence is Viv's biggest issue with writing, not just for Hazbin, but for Helluva as well. As you said in your video, she has way too many ideas she wants to include into her show that nothing really follows a coherent and reasonable timeline of development, and even the individuals feel really jarbled because it's jumping between so many ideas. I watched Hazbin with a few friends in a call, and we could barely keep up with all the new additional information it kept piling onto itself, and we were left not feeling dissatisfied, but just confused on what even happened
My other issue I have with Hazbin is kind of... I hate to say it, but the fact its overly-edgy? I'm not sure any other way to word it, but everything the characters do feel so hyperbolically evil or angelic or way too much of something (especially in Hell, where everyone is constantly just killing people and acting evil and mean 100% of the time) that we can barely process them as characters or people
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
With Angel Dust, I think it would have been better if he was still struggling with his vices, and just before they stop spying, he tries to take care of Nifty and keep her safe. It would show improvement, not someone instantly fixed, but he's trying and on the path to being clean.
Did you not see the whole bit with Valentino? The issue with him is his unwillingness to stand up for himself, it was pretty well established. The drugs are an accessory to that, the main problem is the pimp. That's the point of the "hell is other people" theme the show's trying to tell. Did you not get that?
One thing that I always wonder is: did they knew they’re getting two seasons. Or was they told they’ll get two seasons after the production for season 1. Cause the main rebuttals to the pacing is “oh they didn’t knew if they’re getting any more eps” Great video and keep up the amazing work.
They knew partway through S1 that they'd get S2, but we don't know how many episodes, so whatever story they wrote across both seasons could still be affected by not knowing if they'll be given more time, especially if S2 is revealed to be just as short as S1.
I whole heartedly believe this show would’ve killed it with 16 episodes. Just give each of these characters one more episode and they’d have more breathing room. It feels like it’s being strangled by the scope of the writers and constraints of 8 episodes, gotta take that writing noose off or at least loosen it a bit.
@@47ratsinahoodie tbf, a good writter should be able to handle constraints in a creative way. Sure, more time would be great, but sometimes you gotta work with the cards you are dealt with, you know? Vivzie should've worked within the constraints she had. Cut plot threads, foreshadow future events of future seasons, etc.
@@47ratsinahoodieTbf there’s a lot of evidence that Vivzie would’ve probably just added more characters and storylines in that timeframe instead of using it to flesh out the existing characters. Just look at Helluva Boss. There’s some great glimmers of character depth in there, but it’s been going on for 2 seasons now and we still hardly know anything about most of the characters. We keep getting new characters and dramatic plot lines instead of focusing on the core cast of characters (Blitz and his team). Also writing a story to fit the amount of episodes you’re given is a skill most TV writers learn. You’ll never be able to request the perfect amount of episodes you need unless you’re a mega hit show. It’s common to cut content and rewrite plot lines to fit the episodes you have. It’s the writers responsibility to figure out how to convey their story in the timeframe they’re given.
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
@@blade8741 A writer should also be given a reasonable time to work with. Hazbin Hotel was pitched as a show that needed a lot of time show off the world and characters. It's difficult to introduce characters and plot points we need to care about in 8 episodes with a world with SO much going on. There would've had to be almost nothing going on for 8 episodes to work well, and then the story both sucks and long time fans are left unsatisfied :/ also, nowadays I don't understand the idea of 'foreshadowing future seasons' events' because next seasons aren't a promise. If you spread out the story over a stupid small amount of episodes too thin, you risk the show getting cut off in the worst spot, leaving too many things unanswered. I'd see the 'a good writer should be able to blah blah blah' point if they were at least given a reasonable amount of time for this kind of story. Either a slightly longer season or longer episodes. Not saying they need 20eps to prove they can write (iirc Viv was only asking for 10-15), but at least give them time they can actually work with. A24 basically gave the Hazbin team brownie ingredients when they proposed the idea of making a cake and said "Okay now make the cake." You can if you really try, but if you're proposing a cake, shouldn't you get the ingredients for a cake? It seems like both a waste of time and money to try and get a cake from brownie ingredients and leave it a toss up as to whether it's a good cake or not. Why not just do it right the first time?? Sorry, I'm just REALLY fucking tired of studios disrespecting animation and creatives in general. They either don't give them time, executives fuck with the writing, or they don't advertise the shit, and then they act like they had no hand in the outcomes unless the product ends up a hit.
The pacing, as I've been describing it, is like a group chat RP session going on, where everyone wants to get their characters developed and aren't the best at the pacing of a story, especially when everyone's tryna get in there and do their thing.
I will say with Adam, you can't give a character a mask for the whole show, then on the final episode, reveal their true face, and then just kill them off with no more character development.
Korra did this as well. Why would people in heaven need to hide behind masks anyways? Adam eventually learned he was naked and hid from God to hide his shame. So this mask is another version of his shame? So how does this tie into slaughtering people? See, basic understanding of Adams story and you could have such a better plot.
I think it's kind of absurd when people defend the show's pace and half baked nature by bringing up the number of episodes. Shows like Infinity Train and Over The Garden Wall have 10 episodes per season/series (Infinity Train does have 4 seasons but each season is focused on a different cast/story and mostly stand on their own while still including overarching plot points or recurring characters) AND their episodes are half the length, so they actually have significantly less run time, yet their stories are significantly more impactful and cohesive due to being much more focused. The people making Hazbin Hotel didn't adapt and use their time effectively. If they didn't know what to prioritize given their circumstances, I really doubt a longer run time would have fixed all of it's problems. I do understand why it happened though. The future of animation in the industry seems really shaky right now, I totally understand why someone would rush to cram in all of their ideas if they're unsure if they'll get renewed or not, but I don't think it was the right move, quality wise. Personally, I think a show that's well written but got cancelled before it finished will always be more fondly remembered by fans, and the blame of it being unfinished will mostly be pinned on higher up forces, while a show that's rushed and poorly written will be less revered and easier to forget about or dislike in the long run, and the blame will get put on the writers, but that's just my preference.
They seriously could've done more if they cut out unnecessary things including moments with Carmilla and Heavan, Hazbin is already so big of an IP and just focusing on S1 as if it's the last but still do alot with those in Hell and mainly the cast with atleast few hints of say the 3 V's which get built up would have very likely meant a Season 2 would be given. However Viv and her team do not understand any of this simple logic, I just came up with what I did on the fly.
That's because these shows work on condensed episodic plots with throwaway leads, or one off stories. Infinity Train was planned to have multiple protags over the course of different seasons so of course it was paced correctly, it was planned to. And it literally took place on a bunch of self contained train cars with their own little worlds, making it episodic, ridiculously easy to keep pacing with that, nothing wrong with it either. Over the Garden Wall is a self contained story that ends. Ongoing plots with worldbuilding focus tend to need to keep the pacing up if it isn't more then 10 episodes. You don't really know much about writing constraints or working on a limit. Also, Infinity Train got canceled (still actually mad that it did), and shows like this have to shoot their shot, so don't you DARE act like that when you're clearly some AI generated bad actor.
@@Gayintheback Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Carmilla wasn't even wearing Angelic weapons. Her shoes were white not silver. Angelic weapons are silver. It should be a light grayish color but with special effects like in HB...
The fact that Hazbin hotel just released, it's on its first season, and people can already see that it needs a reboot is.... yikes. (I agree with your point I'm just saying that for a show this is really bad)
@@Gayinthebackthe only explanation I can find for that is "Vaggie thought she was fallen and the fallen CAN be harmed by angelic weapons" or "she meant she didn't know angelic weapons can kill the angels, not harm them, you misread the scene"
@@X-SPONGED No, the point is that Vaggie would have died by the angelic weapon which led everyone to confusion since she didnt die. Plus her eye would have been recovered along with her wings due to the power of love, I guess. Whatever, Vivziepop.
Something I wanted to bring up from Schafrillas' review also sticks here (regarding Angel's trauma). They really don't know how to handle it with tact. On one hand, it subtly tries to say that his trauma and Husk's gambling addiction are comparable in "Loser Baby" even if another interpretation could simply be that they recognize their self-destructive tendencies and want to heal like JS offers. On the other hand, to try and have a serious convo about this sexual trauma in the same episode as Sir Pentious being dragged against his will into a side room at the bar after nervously proclaiming he's having "sex with everybody" as a joke isn't a good look.
It's similar to how "Helluva Boss" was criticized because one episode shows Stella almost hitting Stolas and it's meant to show that she's a bad person, but Loona attacking Blitzo in the very next episode just for asking that she be nicer to the clients is played entirely for laughs.
It doesn't help that Viv said that's her favourite joke in the show. It's almost like she doesn't 'actually' think rape is a bad thing if she can add a rape joke into a show that 'also' wants to tackle it as a serious issue. If Viv actually cared to portray rape as this horrible, monstrous thing, the thought of making a joke scene with rape as the punchline would never have crossed her mind.
That wasn't the same episode loser baby is episode 4. The bar was more episode 6. Its hell making inappropriate jokes is fine. Loser baby i think wasnt even about changing their self destruction it was more about accepting and laughing at their circumstances together.
One of, if not the greatest, and most important rules in all of storytelling is this: _Show, don't tell._ Hazbin Hotel often *told* us that things happened, and that characters developed. It never *showed* us _how_ these things happened. Being *shown* these things, allows us to experience the sensation of an actual story. _Words, actions, emotions;_ not mere descriptions of what already came to pass. The closest we ever got to that, was the interaction between Angel Dust & Husk. It's incredibly disappointing to see genuinely interesting story beats being thrown into the trash.
I rly noticed it in ep 3 when they said being in the warzone actually helped angel, husk and sir pentious bond. I guess I can see them bonding over going thru such a dangerous experience (as they showed thru them laughing and reminiscing on it) but I felt a bit cheated that all the focus was on vaggie for that whole time. I would've liked to see those 3 get closer and protect each other during the battle
@@bloodyidit4506no they didn’t hazbin hotel goes on the telling you what happened with the bare minimum of showing us that to the point it’s forgetful and underwhelming
It's the way Vivziepop keeps throwing away interesting ideas all the time. Like, Vaggie being an ex-angel should be a HUGE deal. It has massive implications for what Charlie's trying to accomplish, because if people who were born in heaven can be thrown out (and for fairly petty reasons), shouldn't it be a hugely demoralising blow to the sinners? Shouldn't they shun Vaggie for killing so many demons before she became one herself, and for not telling anyone until she was forced to? Shouldn't it put pressure of Charlie's relationship with her because she's dating a woman who used to kill her own people? But no, Charlie's mad about it for like half an episode, then it's "Let's go home" and everybody is just fine with it - like the person who has most beef with Vaggie is Lute for some reason. It's like Vivzie just can't have something disrupt her OTP so she ignores any potential conflict so she can back to them going "Omg I must protect you! I support you! You're so important to me!" over and over.
Also when we're talking about populations, the main character is a Child of Lucifer. So he's fertile? You can be fertile in hell? Do you know how many doors that opens up? Apparently sex is a huge thing everyone is up to but there aren't babies? Is God providing abortion services in his eternal punishment zone? Yeah, I'm sending you to burn in hellfire, but heaven forbid an unwanted pregnancy! If babies can be conceived, are they also getting killed?
28:30 im so glad someone said this, I always see people say pentious' redemption was one of the best parts about the show but them getting into heaven despite barely showing any character improvement to earn it, really made me scratch my head
Your rant on Adam made me think about how raw a line it would’ve been if Charlie asked him why he wants the exterminations so badly, only for Adam to say: “Why does anyone do anything? Sheer, absolute, boredom”
that could have also played into the edgy-athiest type conception of heaven and hell. The idea that heaven is this sterile boring world where you're not even allowed to feel negative emotions, while hell may be a bit rough, but at least you keep your freedoms.
This show really feels like it gaslights Vaggie with that whole song about her needing to fight for love. She's so underused but she's always doing her best.
The Hotel getting destroyed after eight episodes is so insane. Ngl I expected the entirety of season 1 being about Angel’s redemption arc and then slowly gathering new patrons to the hotel at the end. Idk the fight for the hotel feels like such a several seasons in moment because it’s so massive. :/ This show has so much potential but it’s a shame they fumbled this. Could’ve been way worse but also could’ve been so much better.
I have an idea for how to give two of the other characters some more development: It was showcased to us that Sir Pentious had a thing for Cherri Bomb, so keeping in line with that, why not turn their relationship into an enemies-to-lovers story? Like after Sir Pentious joins the hotel and meets up with Cherri again, he's so hell-bent on getting his revenge on her, but after the two spend more time together, he starts to realize that she's just really amazing to be around, and he even starts to develop feelings for her, and on Cherri's side, she first starts out as seeing Pentious as nothing but an annoying nuisance not worth her time, but she also gets to see how beneath his try-hard, villainous exterior, he's actually really sweet and caring, that would make Pentious' confession of love for her a whole lot more satisfying, because we would have seen them cultivate an actual relationship.
The main problem with Hazbin Hotel is its creator. Vivziepop can't handle criticism, and so after 10 years of refusing to improve, the disappointment of this show was inevitable.
Get over your hate boner. The show is great. I loved it just because you don't and you don't like The creator doesn't mean you gotta shout it to the world.
It doesn't help that her content gets endlessly praised and touted as some ground-breaking thing when really it isn't. Like okay, she got her indie show picked up by a big studio? But she had tons of help given to her by her rich family too. Out of just "making a cartoon" this show is really vastly overhyped. The way the fanbase will attack people for pointing that out is sickening. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a toxic fanbase for anything ever.
@@blacksesamecandies disagree Binge watch modern fg to know how to make a boring slug The only thing toxic is people who shit on this show for no reason Sure it has flaws no show is perfect but come on
@@blacksesamecandiesYeah and honestly it's not even a milestone anymore, for starters the Touhou indie game franchise manage to spawn various music groups and the fans even made their own anime....TRICE with incredibly professional quality and sold them on dvds and everything, all of this for a franchise with barely any publicity (if at all) outside of some conventions in japan) and with the chillest creator i've ever seen; literally he just drinks beer, spends time with his family and makes the games, no pointless fights, no announcing himself as the next god of games or nothing, just a chill and talented dude. And that's not the only example, let's not forget about Don't hug me i'm scared another indie project that was so good that made it to tv and again with really chill and talented creators. And all of this is without mentioning the amount of people who made it into the industry like various animators and the crew behind smiling friends. Tl:dr the whole Indie to mainstream thing....has already been done... AND MUCH BETTER
Watching a highly critical and negative video on _Hazbin_ after JUST watching a video praising it (schnee's "Hazbin Hotel's MASTERY of tone") is whiplash.
@@ern1609 Literally....I get negatively is big but genuinely? It feels off putting compared to the positively at this point even though I know most people don`t hate the show.
@@ern1609 I will say though that like wtih Cartoonshi going through snipbits of this video while I disagree with parts of it (like Adam) it honestly isn`t that unfair, maybe even more fair then his Helluva Boss video in some areas which felt more negative. Hell they both called it a mess but it being a mess doesn`t even necessarily mean that it`s bad.
hazbin is a great case study for why you need filler episodes. if you barely know the characters, what they go through doesn't matter. think of it this way, would you feel more impacted hearing a random person you've never met got killed, or hearing that your next door neighbour who you talked to every morning got killed?
Beautiful points! One of my main gripes with the show was how they handle death. What does dying ACTUALLY mean in this universe??? Because it's so contradictory with adam saying "A man only lives once. Did you forget that hell is forever?" Like, THEN IF HELL IS WHY DO PEOPLE IN HELL DIE???? It's so stupid.
apparently there were lore explanations given (prolly on twitter) how dying in the afterlife works but I forget them tbh. and it's not like they were in the show. I think it's basically that if anything angelic hits u then ur gone forever, but anything else u can recover or smth
@@Ramsey276one That's fine but it should've been explained in the shown itself, given that it is important information for the setting. Also wouldn't "you cease to exist" kind of death still be a form of freeing yourself from your supposed to be eternal punishment? Logically there should be at least some sinners, who try to get killed by the angels so they can escape hell.
Right? I wish they could've gotten into what exactly happens when they "die" a second time. Do they get placed elsewhere? Purgatory? Do they just disappear? Even in just a little sentence or something like "Did you forget that hell is forever?... wellll except for those who get sent to the darkness of course-" and then he could've explained the killings. Fucking SOMETHING
It would of made more sense if Adam’s hatred for demons came from Lilith leaving him for lucifer and then lucifer telling eve to bite into the apple and possible seducing her, so he slaughters countless demons every year out of spite against lucifer for stealing his first wife and getting his second wife banished from the garden of Eden. It would of made the final fight scene were Adam fights lucifer so much more dramatic instead of being treated as a joke and it would of made Adam a much more interesting and somewhat sympathetic character instead of the clown he turned out to be.
Damn. How come i see so many people coming up with better ideas for this series than Vivziepop herself? The same you can see in fanfics, many of them are much better written than the canon.
Fr. Doesn’t mean he can’t be a sadistic piece of shit, who shows 0 care for demons and enjoys the extermination, but a little bit of depth like this would go a long way
And why not have Adam rebuke Lucifer seemingly rizzing up both his wives. It's like we're supposed to see Lucifer is some Casanova chad whom Adam's wives "didn't seem to hate what he had to offer bow-chika-bow-wow.". The exchange is treated like it's supposed to be a "take that" moment from Lucifer to Adam. Except, both ended in failure. We're now told that Lucifer and Lilith split since Charlie was little in episode 5 IIRC. Adam could've mockingly asked Lucifer "Hey "Casanova" didn't you and Lilith split? Did you drive her away too, or did she just grow tired of you?" Eve accepting Lucifer's fruit resulted in both Lucifer and Lilith being banished to Hell, which resulted in Lucifer falling into depression. "Didn't you curl yourself into a ball after the whole fruit fall fiasco? Yikes, after seeing that disaster it's no wonder Heaven never listened to you." These momentarily stun Lucifer, and allow Adam to get a hit in with his blast, sending Lucifer into the ground. This would've made Adam more intelligent and threatening, but we can't have the villain be competent now can we?
The main issue with the story is she is using Jewish-Christian mythology without understanding the very basics of their philosophy. Why is sex outside of marriage wrong, why is doing drugs wrong etc. no instead she made Adam a jerk and made the Devil sympathetic. She doesn’t understand why eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was wrong. She made heaven hypocritical without knowing why. Jewish and Christian morality is not about just following rules and being “nice”. There’s more to it.
whats REALLY funny is that bc of this (not understanding the underlying philiosophy) what charlie wants (redeeming sinners) isnt even anti-christian. the idea of people changing and repenting is like...half the point of christianity, to my understanding. its not even a controversial or anti-christian take, its just dressed up in controversial aesthetics
I'll say it Lucifer being an "avid dreamer whos ambitions where crushed" makes absolutely no sense I am absolutely sure that the "roo" character because vivzie needed to shift Lucifer blame to someone else Since he's kinda to blame for literally everything that happens in the show
that's probably my biggest criticism with this show. I have long held the belief that it is difficult if not impossible for people who are neither Christians nor Jews to understand the Word of God, and this show is only further evidence of that.
@@asmodeus304 the issue is that even in Christianity, Hell is the absolute end for those who rejected God's offer of mercy. Once you're there, that's it. You're done for good. If Charlie did what that one priest did and attempted to rehabilitate sinners *before* they went to Hell, then yeah. That'd be perfectly in-line with Christian teachings. instead she's trying to redeem people who have already had their chance and chosen to squander it.
I really hate how the show's plot took a running start and went from "let's redeem and help sinners and try to survive in this hellish world" into "WE NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD IN 6 MONTHS" like the whole reason I got into this show in the first place was because the idea of one gentle and loving soul trying to help others in a hellish and dark place like hell is a cool concept. It would've been nicer to move into it during later seasons but it feels like we get the best moments of a 3 seasoned show into 8 20 minute episodes
This advice is going to be really useful to me. Whenever I write something for my webcomic, I focus too much on hitting plot points, and not enough on what those moments mean for the characters.
The term "kill you darlings" exist for a reason, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
I just hate how it's bad writing in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, that isn't strictly that it's bad, but how it has the same persistent flaws that keep getting ignored and never really fixed. A lot of these, I've noticed, seem to revolve around sex and sexual relationships, and I kind of wish they would stop doing that. They clearly don't have the aptitude or maturity to handle the subject matter. For one thing, Angel Dust singing about being a "loser, baby!" and trying to laugh it off that he's a victim of Valentino, comes across as unintentionally disgusting. It's multiple examples like that.
I didn’t interpret loser baby like that.. I thought it was about knowing that you’re not alone, and that yes, you’re in a shitty situation with your soul being owned, so am I. We are losers, we’re in the same shit sandwich, so maybe if we stick together things will end up differently. But that’s the thing with songs, it’ll be interpreted in different ways.
@@A_C_E1537 I respect your point, but I would say that I would not have said my point on "Loser, Baby" if I didn't have reasonable grounds to believe it. It's like how "Summer Nights" from Grease goes "Tell me more, tell me more, was it love at first sight?/ Tell me more, tell me more, did she put up a fight?" and how I think that one is extremely sus depending on how you interpret that one also, if you want another example. I'll give "Loser, Baby" credit that Keith David and Blake Roman do sing it really well, and it's a very well composed song. But I hate it in context.
@@Keurgui1 I'm saying how I'm feeling, but I never said it matters more than how others feel, or you have to agree. I think Hazbin and Helluva have a unique problem in that when their writing is bad, it is unintentionally horrific and disgusting. Though this is the whole point- the person who originally replied said they didn't see it that way. Some of it is down to how you interpret it. In my defence, I do not think I was wielding emotions like a weapon, though. I never said "You should feel the same way as me because I will feel sad". I thought I was perfectly civil and polite with the original replier.
Honestly? I can respect the show for what it WANTED to do. If I had the opportunity to make a show with the characters I’ve worked on for the past decade, but got told “you have 8 for the first season, then you’ll see what we can do for the second” I’d be going buck fucking wild too. It’s a deeply flawed show, but I respect the attempt. It’s like watching someone trying to do a kick flip and face planting after landing it. Respect for the attempt, but more practice is needed for that.
Yeah. But at some point writers must learn restraint. RARELY there is perfect production and total freedom in any show. I learned a lot from recent shows this lesson, sacrifices is necessary.
@@flowerbloom5782 I agree, and if I was just handed the premise, cutting down is the first thing that I would do. BUT- as someone with a couple passion projects in the background of my shorter stuff- if I’d finally been greenlit to show off something I’d been thinking about since middle or high school, I would have been devastated by the episode count they wound up with and can see a world where I might’ve crammed in as much as I could, lol. Wouldn’t be the right thing to do, but (and I’m not necessarily talking about you) I see a lot of comments really tearing into the creator for overindulging herself or ‘not thinking about it more than five seconds’, when in reality, I think it’s a pretty understandable action I can sympathize with. Maybe if so much of the planning HADN’T been posted online before hand, and she hadn’t had a decade to stew in everything and confuse what is ESSENTIAL to keep (because again: passion project. If she’s anything like me, she gets really attached to ideas and can’t let them go), it would have been easier to cut the cord? But I think the added pressure of everyone expecting to see certain characters and a more complicated story (minus the Heaven stuff, which was the most confusing choice to me) encouraged the team to make something, well, complicated, and they overfilled their plate. Again, not the right choice, but I understand why it happened. It made for some terrible groundwork and a whole mess of problems, but given all that, I’m actually surprised the show is as fun as it is, even if it falls apart under a microscope.
One plot-hole that pissed me off in particular was that the Exorcists had no idea that their own weapons can kill them. Tell me this then- how was Vaggie's eye cut out? What did Lute use to do that? Hmmm? How did Vaggie not figure that out and tell Charlie in the first place (aside from the fact that it would reveal she was an angel). And how Adam reacted in the finale too- Rather than ,,Oh shit, they figured out our weakness" it was ,,Shit, our weapons can kill us?" HOW DID YOU NOT KNOW THAT!?
This is a good example of a show I wanted to like because of its expressive animation and good concepts... But the writing is frankly terrible. The obvious choice for serializing this show would be to make it a "demon of the week" redemption story. Showcase Charlie learning about each new person and helping them successfully ascend into Heaven. You could eventually lead up to a villain who tries to destroy the hotel of course, but I think the choice of Adam as the villain was poor.
These points are quite similar to mine. In the first season, we get to know about the main cast. And the faults/issues of each new patron (for that episode) connects back with one of our cast members, and there troubles. This works to both flesh out characters like Husk and Angel. While also sticking with the main premise. Maybe not have the new guest ascend right away. But, still have them leave the hotel, much better then when they arrived. Not to mention that the V's would have worked well as antagonist for the first season. Since if Charlies plan succeeds, then they have something to lose (ergo, their control/power). Thus, it would stand to reason that they would try everything in their power to destroy the hotel. And if Viv did want to shift the focus to a grander narrative. Then save that for either a season 2, or 3.
The Angel Beats anime did this plot. People are stuck in the afterlife which seems like it should be a punishment, but there is a limit of sorts, not even a time limit persay. But eventually thigns happen so you get to see the options of getting out, and the show's final arc is an admittedly quick blitz through the solution. It doesn't have to be episodic, but the core mechanics should be ENGAGED with and not left out entirely.
I'm glad a lot of people agree that hazbin needed more episodes and/or more focus on the origional concept cuz like JS said its so annoying when people call anything that doesn't advance the deeper story filler. Great example if you only wat he'd the episodes of gravity falls that tie into the overarching story you'd miss 2/3rds of the show and wouldn't care about the characters or their relationships to be invested in it anyway
I've just had an idea that could have been interesting to explore. Why not make Jesus, who died and became the bridge between humans and the afterlife, act as the doorman between Heaven, Hell and Earth (Akin to Hiemdall in his role in the first Thor movie)? I feel like that could be genuinely interesting to see what could come of a character that gave both their life and their afterlife to help humans, only to have to send them through the Hell door time and time again. What would their views on redemption be like? Would he believe redemption to be still be possible after all that time?
This is something I need to say is that Hazbim Hotel doesn't understand how to use swearing in writing, swearing can be a GREAT tool to highlight moments, the word fuck can be genuinely great to make things more emotional, more angry, more intense. And frankly Hazbin Hotel just doesn't understand how to use it, the word fuck is said too much and it makes the word meaningless, fuck loses impact and purpose, it loses the emotional punch it can have, a trailed off quiet under the breath "Fuck..." can add to a moment, it can be a moment of shock, a moment of failure, but if fuck is said 15 times minutes before that moment that fuck LOSES all its punch and reason to exist
Yea even when watching the show originally I didn't notice the plot holes or bad pacing. But I did notice how Angel Dust's redemption was speedran and he suddenly was already a better person just in time for Charlie to show Heaven her program works. But Angel Dust's been under Val's control and has been addicted to drugs and sex for so long so his redemption should NOT have been that fast
You said it all, tbh this show feels like it was written for children, shallow writing, songs that explain the episode's moral, 1 dimensional charachters, like who wrote this, Whats worse is that there actual better written kid shows out there to watch
Something I hated is when Alastor started using modern insults like “clout chasing,” to Vox. Vox should be the one saying that, not Alastor, especially considering how set in his ways Alastor is.
Yeah, I don't like how Alastor shifted into a sassy swearing edge lord as opposed to a shady yet charming radio host how he was in the pilot. It's like they tried to make him progressive in a way, modernized him when he's someone who believes his time period was the best
@@A_C_E1537 well, I can say that just me, because of his mixed background he would understand shady AAVE remarks, maybe even think some are funny. But also, Alastor is from the South where people throw shade or make underhanded comments - I wish we could have seen that with Alastor. I feel like not only would it tie in with his personality but also where he grew up
Your point on how the perspective of the concept of Hell would change if sinners went there for only minor offenses really made think of how great The Good Place handled this sort of concept. Seriously, it does a lot of what Hazbin attempts to do SO MUCH BETTER.
I think the whole setup for the Angels Vs Devils/Sinners thing had become too predictable for me. Maybe it's because I've been playing one too many Shin Megami Tensei games, but it just feels clichéd when it ends up with "Heaven bad, Devils are rebels against The System™" yadda yadda yadda. It would've been more interesting to see Hazbin Hotel actually carry out its task of reforming sinners and see each one ascend to Heaven. Maybe instead of focusing on reforming one, we could see a variety of characters in each episode. Each one coming in as a sinner, Charlie figures out what sin they've commited in life, gets to the root of it, confronts them with it, they have a heart-to-heart and by the end of the episode we see them take on a more angelic form. Perhaps it's too simple and may get a tad repetitive, but at least it honours the original pitch of this show. I dunno, just ANYTHING that doesn't devolve to making the angels into dictators and the literal devils as some kinda "misunderstood" underdog.
I was worried it would end up that way, but I think it ended up being more nuanced than that. We see that the other angels aren't as bad as Adam, and in fact most of them are unaware of the exterminations. Sera might not care much about Hell's inhabitants, but she comes off as someone who's genuinely afraid that demons could become a threat to Heaven while Adam seems like he's just making excuses to kill them. With Hell, it is true that the show whitewashes Lucifer and the higher up demons seem overly compassionate from what we've seen of them, but we also see that many demons are pretty brutal and Angel Dust and Sir Pentious are portrayed as people who are genuinely trying to be better, instead of just being misunderstood. After all, there's no reason for redemption if someone hasn't done anything that they need to be redeemed for. There are criticisms you can make of how the show handled the conflict, but I still feel it managed to be a little better than "Angels are oppressive asswipes, demons are cool rebels".
This version of Hazbin Hotel is a slightly more competent High Guardian Spice. Thank you for being a sane voice in the discourse. I wish we would have had you on the production team.
This show needs a therapist. Like seriously, they need somebody with some kind of therapy background to consult on the script writing. It feels like they want to do therapy speak but don't know the words they need in any situation.
1:02:21 I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed this. Don Bluth and Viv are amazing animators. But it’s blatantly obvious that they work best with restrictions instead of free rein; their art and animation style do a lot of heavy lifting for the subpar writing. Being a good animator doesn’t make someone a good writer just like being a food critic doesn’t make someone a good cook; writing a script and drawing a storyboard are two completely different mediums; it’s why my animation and graphic design professors recommend that all animation majors minored in creative writing. Hell, Bojack Horseman is the perfect example of how the writing matters more than the visuals. Hazbin and Helluva are the antithesis of this; if the visuals for either show dips in quality, the fans are going to leave in droves.
Oh man hell no it didn't lol, that show and all the netflix original content stuff is nihilistic trash made by underpaid interns and actors who get mistreated to hell and back. Don't defend the big streaming services and their anti-employee and consumer practices.
Кино
I got a new microphone starting with this video, so let me know what you guys think of it!
It's good. Keep it.
Didn’t notice a difference
It certainly records sound
A slight improvement for sure. Though I think everyone's more concerned with the new avatar art style; personally I don't think it fits your vibe, your last few were much better, but that's just me. I know there are some that are all for it.
50K Mic? W.
A big issue with Vivvians writing is she gives too much of the actual world/character building in podcasts, and then chooses to not to write it into the show
THIS. New viewers should not have to watch a bunch of podcasts and read a bunch of tweets for the basic world building.
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
yeah I felt like going in that I was "supposed to" know a lot more abt the characters than I rlly did. like how she said charlie and alastor apparently have similar senses of humor. would've been nice to see that...
so many times I see ppl pass around canon info abt this show and I'm like "where'd that come from tho??"
I agree she has the ideas but it gets too mashed together its not well executed.
It is never a good sign for an audience if the writer expects all the writing to be filled by "supplementary material".
Just ask RWBY...
I’m gonna say it, but inserting the war on heaven in the first season would be the equivalent of having Weirdmaggedon in the first season of Gravity Falls.
Stanford appearing in like episode 6
Half of the major plot points in this show could’ve been way more impactful if they were built up throughout S1, and THEN having a payoff for S2, instead of being shoved in all at once in the first 8 episodes. Ex: the dead angel mystery, Vaggie being an angel, visiting heaven for the first time, hell vs heaven war, etc, etc, etc.
Holy shit this is a perfect analogy...
jotaro vs dio on season 1 episode 6
@runningispointliess I mean imagine if they Flew to Dio directly and didn't get their Plane to Egypt crashed 🤣
"Great concept, poor execution" is pretty much Viv's brand now.
They desperately need a strict story editor who can keep things tightly focused (especially important given the limited number of episodes).
I agree cause I think giving Viv either you give Viv too much freedom she will completely change the premise of her shows in a matter of seconds or too much restrictions and she will cram everything single plot point and sacrifice what the premise of a show is about.
That, has been the go to for cartoons since 2010, as every random project from anyone got the Green light! Rather than people who know what their doing, and have reasonable ambitions. Canada was pretty mutch the exception!
@@erikbihari3625 The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to appreciate Adult Swim for being what it is. They always take risks when it comes to greenlighting such projects, and that's why they typically pick up surrealist avant-garde humor cartoons and straight-up experimental animated shows like Superjail! and Xavier Renegade Angel. From its very inception, it was meant to be a playground for artistic expression by allowing creators with ideas their own voice that wasn’t on most network television. Vivziepop's style of humor and animation are far too polished and edgy for a cool network like Adult Swim.
@@no_0riginality937 You know, I see people defending the author with a simple narrative of independent pure artists vs big bad corporations, but writers are ALWAYS going to be under some constraints. Sure there are more and fewer cases of creative freedom, but all of them have to change and adapt to the screentime that is given to them (or rarely, chosen beforehand). Vivziepop failed at this because she had this story macerating in her head for years on end and couldn't bring herself to change this precious child. No matter what, you have to let go of the things that you love the most.
@@erikbihari3625 The more I think about it, the more I appreciate Adult Swim for being what it is. The difference was that Adult Swim is known for taking actual risks and doesn't care about marketability, which is why they pick up surreal Dadaist anti-humor comedy cartoons, and straight-up avant-garde animated shows like Superjail, Xavier: Renegade Angel, and King Star King. From its very inception, it was always meant to give odd creative artists and animators with ideas their own voice that couldn't exist on any other network television. Vivziepop's style of humor and animation are far too polished and edgy for a cool network like Adult Swim.
Charlie not knowing what she's doing is symbolic of Vivzie not knowing what she's doing either.
Charlie is a perfect example of the show, she is so committed to the plot and such that she has no time to spend with any of the characters and their growth. She barely spends time with Vaggie, and only has a second chat with Alastor in the SEVENTH episode!
these kinds of shows always seem to be reflective... in a NON self-aware way, sadly
She and the whole crew have no idea what their doing in the story department. The plot holes are so annoying, like how is Vaggie's opinion about the extermination being a secret to most heaven never addressed? As an ex exterminator she should have a notion, but we never see her contemplating telling her girlfriend or not since that could compromise her status as an angel (which could have been interesting but no, we needed that stupid poorly written trial ). Or how the angels didn't knew their steel could harm them when Lute used it to cut Vaggie's eye and wings. Or why the exterminators didn't just focus on Carmilla and her daughters? She only killed ONE of the FIVE they encountered, did the other four just... forgot who killed their comrade? If they cared so much for their secret then why not just make Carmilla and her daughters disappear and keep things as they were? And then they call people who see the flaws "Unfair" or "Too judgy", as if there are no rules nor proper ways to write a story.
*Bro spent 50K on the thumbnail.*
Honestly the song isn’t bad but it doesn’t fit the music video!
Maybe something like a cutesy chase love song like Jennie Rom’s wuki wuki?
Yep
Edit: nice reference
Me when I’m hiding away
I miss the long-haired avatar
@@hesfallen he’s not hiding, he’s exterminating.
I’m going to just say it, making the angels evil jerks is a stupid decision and bad story telling. If Vivzie wanted to make them the antagonists, she should’ve had them not be blatantly evil, but prideful and stuck in their ways. It would make way more sense and be more interesting if the angels weren’t straight evil but simply didn’t believe demons could be redeemed, becuase they are prideful in their service to God, but despite that they are good and kind beings. But having half of the angels we see be murderous lunatics is ridiculous, if an angel were actually like that they would’ve fallen and gone straight to hell already.
Prideful fits well
God doesn’t even rule Heaven here. A councile does, which is incorrect.
Adam is an angel, something that is just also incorrect. Humans do not become angels. Angels are a different type of being created by God to serve other purposes (man was made to be the Steward who tends Creation, as relayed in Genesis with Adam in Eden).
I could go on longer. The whole setting is a mush of half baked gnosticism that doesn’t make any sense.
@@surprisedchar2458HH isn’t supposed to be accurate to Christianity if that’s the correct way to say it. It’s just very loosely based on it, and it has its own rules. Treat it as an Alternate Universe if you will.
It's insanely obvious that the show was just meant to appeal to reddit atheists. Like Adam being an ass. You can't change Adam because his whole point is for people who hate Christianity to go "Look at how funny it is that the first human is an ass!"
Even as a person who has bad experiences with Christianity, having a show basically only there to shit on it doesn't feel right.
Isn't adam the only jerk? The other angels seemed really reasonable, like Sera wanting to protect Emily from falling like lucifer did.
My main problem is the show became a Heaven vs Hell story, rather than focusing on the characters actually redeeming. I honestly didn’t know the characters were dead humans and not naturally born demons until I read it online. There’s basically no way to tell the two types apart, because the characters’ lives as humans is never even mentioned in the show. Really weird that this is treated like just a fantasy world rather than the afterlife.
Yeah. It would had worked better as a modern fantasy setting.
I thought they were just all anthropomorphic animals. I had no idea any of them were EVER human. I feel like that's a major design failure due to the art style.
@@billtree52 Yeah, combining people with different objects and animals related to their deaths and personalities makes sense, but also dehumanizes them too much.
bc she dont want us to jugde if they really deserves to be in heaven, look at angel dust, former mafia member, serial killer and drug addict, and the shows reasoning for him to be accepted in heaven is that he has shown one act of selflessness
yeah but i’d argue that the heaven vs hell thing needed to happen first in order for them to focus more on redeeming people. i think it’s best to get it out of the way first so we actually know that her plan is plausible and so that it can keep moving forward. although i do agree that it’s annoying how much lore of the show and general setting + characters is just said on some random live stream and not actually in the show lmao
"Erm if you look on the wiki it actually tells you what the sinners were like before they died 🤓🤓🤓". Someone in these comments have absolutely said this, and I hope they read this, and I hope they get mad.
*YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO READ A WIKI TO UNDERSTAND A SHOW*
@@Ramsey276onemy biggest problem is that Vivzie will talk about the world building and lore, but only in podcasts, and not the show
That makes it EVEN MORE FRUSTRATING!! Like, they were able to piece together that lore, write it, announce it, and yet they STILL didn't put it in the damn show! They could've stretched out the whole Heaven v Hell battle for at least 2 seasons to keep it interesting while showing more depth for their characters, but they decided to rush it and pack it all into one confusing pile of mess
@@Ramsey276one You could instead watch it. It doesn't throw in details you can't understand without outside info bro. Just admit you hate gays or something lol
@@thatoneweirdo522 So? If you had never known any of the background lore you'd have never whined.
The funniest thing about Adam’s characterisation is that they had a perfect way for him to parallel Charlie. He could’ve started off as being a really nice, well-intentioned Angel who did the genocides as a last resort, but over time he grew more and more corrupted and cynical. Whereas Charlie still believes redemption is possible, Adam could’ve deluded himself that it’s impossible due to his own failings in his attempts, and the death of the Angel would’ve sent him over the edge. Hell, if they wanted to keep the “first human arrogance” angle they were going for, have it so Adam blames the failed redemptions on the demons rather than his own failed methods. Sure his hatred wouldn’t be wholly unfounded since the majority of demons act like that, but it could’ve been made clear that even with nicer demons he did a horrible job.
To add to this, and so my main post doesn’t become TOO big
The arrogance could also be used to explain why he blames others for his own flaws. He’s the FIRST human; all other humans come from him so, in his eyes, he would “know” how all other humans behave. He’d try out methods that only work on himself rather than trying to reach out and learn about other people
but no, we gotta have "Blitzo again, but worse, and an angel"
I’ve said this and I’ll say it again, they should’ve used Adam Caedmon instead of Human Adam. Playing a far more logical and calm character, but he’s too set in his ways to fix it. Human Adam could’ve been a demon that became desperate to return to Heaven, but he was desperate that when he thought the first purge occurred, he would’ve been killed by it. Eve or someone else could tell them about this, it still shows Heaven hypocrisy that even the first human couldn’t even make it in. Having Adam being an actual foil to Charlie’s hopeful and fun loving side with Caedmon’s calm, analytical, and rule bound ways.
When I see Adam's character he doesn't give off the feeling of being the first man no instead he feels like a douchebag roommate who does nothing all day but gets high and just does sex jokes everytime you talk to him
That's probably really specific but that's what Adam character feels like to me
@@Perdix64or if you want it to be biblically accurate, have it be Michael instead. He was the one partially responsible for taking Lucifer down and he’s often seen as Heaven’s prime soldier
Hazbin Hotel really opened my eyes to how genuinely screwed up the pacing for serialized cartoons are nowadays. It's like they're afraid that if they don't get every plot point in a single season, their show will immediately get cancelled. Which while that's a pretty sad possibility in this day and age, it makes the experience way less satisfying because we're blowing past important, emotional events that could have hit harder if more time was given to them.
My advice for any showrunner is to start by plotting out only Season 1. Treat that like it’s the only one you’ll ever get, but don’t cover ALL your bases. Look at SpongeBob Season 1- it establishes every major character and dynamic while still leaving a lot of room open for future misadventures. Heck, look at Steven Universe Season 1 and its slow burn approach to getting the show set up for later seasons.
Oh my God, this.
Like, the pacing is garbage because streaming has fucked up serialization to the point where cartoons have to rush shit.
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
@@eatatjoes6751 it kinda confuses me, cause like wouldn't you WANT to give people more content to watch so they stay on your platform longer??? So they have fun binging stuff? And then streaming services wanna complain that no one's watching new stuff like my guy, how are we going to get invested in characters where we either don't have enough to learn to love them or their show could get dropped at the snap of a greedy exec's fingers 🙄 never forgiving Netflix for Inside Job
@@47ratsinahoodie I have no fuckin’ clue, man.
Making Heaven a corrupt system was very cliche. I wish that they did something else with it in order to make it more of an incentive that most of the cast of characters would want to achieve.
I think it could have been worse. What we see of Heaven makes it seem like a genuinely nice afterlife, despite the problems with the higher ups. We also see that most angels aren't as bad as Adam and that most of the angels are unaware of the extermination. While Sera might not have much sympathy for Hell's denizens, she seems like she genuinely thinks that Hell is a potential threat to Heaven while Adam seems to want to kill demons solely out of spite.
Right, if Heaven is just as bad as hell or corrupt then what's the point of the plot? What's the purpose of the premise of the story? Especially in the show hell doesn't seem all that horrid of a place. It's not really an eternal pit of punishment more like a night club for furries
Technically, Heaven’s system isn’t corrupt. It’s just misguided in some way because the Elder Angels just don’t think it’s possible for a Sinner to be redeemed, and Charlie barely having any evidence as to why they can be definitely didn’t help either. However, the Exterminators are definitely corrupt assholes.
@@Hedron1027 assholes maybe, but there's no indicator that the majority of their "victims" didn't have it coming.
@blackchickiedee7 it is not a hellscape where you are at risk of death 24/7 and susceptible to random exterminations.
The first half of the season should've been the entire season. Stretch out all the plot points and give them room to breathe.
yes. i love hazbin but oh boy the pacing makes me cry. im living off vibes and twitter lore
That and the war with heaven should never have happened.
If you told Vivziepop to write the SpongeBob pilot, Help Wanted, she’d find a way to have plankton, Sandy, boating school, and Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy included in just the first episode.
That'd be wild to watch tbh.....
@@DrawciaGleam02 actually it would suck, that's the point they're trying to make.
@@nevaehhamilton3493it would wildly suck
it would be wild to watch how much it'd suck@@nevaehhamilton3493
@@nevaehhamilton3493it would suck…but still a wild thing to see. Lol
Something that is really hard to accept when making a show is that you can’t do everything you want to. If you’re making the show yourself then you can but in most cases you’re not gonna be doing that. You’re gonna have to sacrifice some things. Hazbin only had 8 episodes and way too much was shoved into those episodes, which made it suffer immensely. Viv needed to realize that she couldn’t do everything she wanted and that she needed to cut some stuff
I totally agree. Especially because some things were still left open ended in the finale (wtf is Alastor, Charlie's mom, etc). So I wouldn't be bothered if they had chosen to cut more stuff or leave more things open ended
Probably would help if she just decided to make a book or graphic novel to fill in the details or do storylines that couldn't make it. That's what manga writers do with light novels. Was even shocked to learn even a hated series like sword art online is apparently FAR better in the light novel.
i completely agree
Cut some stuff and prioritize others.
Why have whole episode on eating people town?
Why introduce the v’s and give them big villain songs only to have them sit out at the moment of action?
I heard she wanted to make a spin off show about the v’s, and it really shows. Since she didn’t let them be characters in this show.
Realistically the angel vs demon war should’ve been a season two thing and the first season should’ve been more about the hotel and character growth between characters just so that it doesn’t make it feel like a rushed character arc (aka Angel Dust)
I’ve watched hundreds of Hazbin rants and reviews and you’re the first one to point out how odd it is that Cherry Bomb just inexplicably sticks with the hotel at the end
I think it's due to her friendship with Angel Dust.
(Honoring Pentious's memory is also a possibility)
@@DrawciaGleam02 that is a very good possibility, I also figured it was for Sir Pentious. But it’s still odd having her act like she’s hotel staff now, unless she dips after the hotel is rebuilt.
@@cordyceps7531
Honestly, I'm fine if she stays. I think it's a nice idea for sinners to initially join the hotel for different reasons other than redemption.
THEN they warm up to going to heaven as time passes.
@@cordyceps7531 I think it's best you just not think about it and move on, Viv's shows are not supposed to make sense, dont expect the show to explain why..
Replacement for Sir Pent
There a reason why the term "kill your darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
yeah i legit root for angels to end hell
because in the big fight the "opressed underdogs" literally lost nobody
while evil opressing angels lost entire legion
They could have been in spin-off stories unrelated to the main plot not animated but like in comic format
@@ryszakowyno. A lot of the Cannibal army.
I suspect Viv not doing this is a big reason why her work tends to be contentious. "Helluva Boss" gets criticism for seeming to jump from one plot point to the next while "Hazbin Hotel" got flak for trying to fit too many characters and plotlines into eight episodes.
and cut what tho?
I think Hazbin Hotel having such a big fandom this early is part of what's so detrimental to it.
I think a big part of the "slice of life" content of HH *is* understood to be "canon" as Vivzie is so happy to declare so anytime she finds fanart/fanfic/fanwork she likes...
It's like... like it's not actually a series but rather a multimedia franchise relying on the fans making up funny interactions between the cast while the cartoon gives big situations to shake things up.
Interesting take on the situation.
Especially when a lot of fan theories are in the show. Vaggie being an angel instead of a sinner who took her own life. Alastor and Vox having beef with each other because they were possibly friends instead of just a petty rivalry between a boomer and someone who is electronically progressive. Alastor manipulating Charlie because he's plotting against the hotel... I agree with that take with how fans are carrying the show and HH is fanfic/fanart fodder because even they sometimes along with webcomics have more compelling plots. It's like the creator went on social media to find material to write Hazbin
@@blackchickiedee7 There is a fancomic where Lucifer tells Charlie "So you're into girls? Nice. Me too." And then he ended up having a pretty similar line of dialogue in the actual show. There's also a comic where Valentino says something like "I've killed people for doing less than half of the shit you pulled" and in the show he says "I've killed bitches for less than this attitude you're giving me!" It does make me wonder if some of the show's interactions were drawn from fan material.
@@Corrector1 wow... and also, someone said that there was a comic on YT where the main cast's outfits looked very similar to how they are in the show, especially Charlie's and Vaggie's. 😬😬😬If it's true, that the creator took ideas from people online I'm like, y'all deserve some coins lol you should be getting paid at this point
@@Corrector1Yeah I remember that Lucifer comic too 😅
Perfect use of Steven Universe and the unfair "filler episode" complaint as an example of people not understanding the importance of building up characters and a sense of status quo before you do big moments or large shifts. You need this connective tissue or else nothing feels earned.
I love Steven universe filler episodes. It makes you understand the characters more while giving little clues of the diamond authority. There was so many foreshadowing and alot of people just ignored it
I watched SU without being too involved in the fandom and let me tell you, I was super unaware that "fans" were complaining about the "filler" episodes. I super enjoyed SU’s pacing cuz I treated it as a TV show (back when its shown weekly) and took it in piece by piece and appreciate the minute, little details. This is the right way to get attached.
Nowadays its all for the sake of consuming it really fast or for binge watching. Its all a blur. Its all Cocomelon in 2× speed. Nothing makes sense while they convince us that it does.
The Steven Universe bandwagon hate it got was so unfair that it genuinely hurt.
I think what didn’t help those complaints was the shitty schedule that CN put SU through (especially since SU was airing around the time the TTG takeover was happening)
@@WheeinpaintAgreed; at first, I really wasn’t a huge fan of how the show constantly had the “2 slice of life/episodic episodes for every 1 plot-focused/serious episode” formula all the way to the end.
But seeing some of the episodes have made me rethink that position. It really bugs me how Viv is trying to force in so much stuff with varying tones for each episode, and it really showed in the latest episode of HB, while Rebecca Sugar in comparison, acknowledges wanting to bring justice to each of the writers’ ideas by having episodes about them while using foreshadowing.
@@nitsuga_but_not_really I think what really peeved me about Hazbin Hotel is how desperate it is to show big ass moments and character developments as soon as they imply it rather than building up their characters to become more likeable so that the big moment's aren't interpreted as a crutch. The fact that they showed Angel Dust's trauma in EPISODE FOUR of the first season is a lot to me, and something that Sugar would've saved for the second season, or even beyond for more emotional impact. Not a watcher of HH, but I find it super suspicious. That's like showing the dark shit from Season 3 of Moral Orel in Season 1. It has to _earn_ it.
Vivziepop has gone on record saying that she wants to be like BoJack Horseman, but the thing about is that it deepened the dark themes of the show over time; we have BoJack not understanding that he was at fault for destroying a friendship in Season 1: dark stuff, but pretty normal and relatable, and then his misdeeds get worse and worse every season. Viv really needs to take it slow and leave some room for ideas to grow and be fitted over time.
Ever since Zoophobia Viv likes to do those kinds of stories I call "an OC showcase"
You got an environment full of bizarre characters
You got the kinda main one but mostly introductory to the cast, so you have reasons to know the bizarre cast better
You dig into their backstories
The backstory takes more place than actual story
Addison is a prime example of oc that viv obsessed over to the point she can't let go.
it's funny because there ARE plenty of shows that do this and do it well. Mostly shonen anime. One Piece is notorious for having a huge cast of characters but people still love it. Naruto, Fairy Tail, Soul Easter, My Hero, the list goes on and on. The problem becomes being unable to utilize your huge cast to amplify/show different sides of your main cast, because *that's what they should be doing*. Not to mention the fact that a show that has a 2.5 hour watch time doesn't lend itself to a big cast of characters at all. The anime I named has at least 50 episodes, with some even going into the couple of hundreds.
Literally I just described HH (and Vivziepop media in general) as feeling more like an "OC parade" rather than actual stories, because it's what they are.
Look, I get it, love for your OC's can be a powerful thing, but when telling a story, OC's are tools, actors, to tell a narrative. If you care more about your OC's than telling a story then stick to posting about them online, nothing wrong with that, but when you want to tell a compelling story, your characters need to work FOR the narrative in order for the narrative to work for them.
Considering the show's literally about redeeming sinners their backstory actually matters. So you just kinda have a problem with the show existing, I can see it as you seethe through your teeth. Chillax, bro.
@Helll your comment got deleted. Btw the show is about redeeming sinners and you didn't watch the show because the "war" is a skirmish in the final episode of the pilot, you talk like the plot can't go both ways or have a b-plot, you're picking at nothing and you didn't watch the show.
Honestly, the more I see the slightest overreaction to the slightest bit of criticism, the more I realise just how immature the fandom is. I’m a fan of Hazbin, and as long as the criticism is fair, I’m all here for it.
Except it usually isn’t…
The whole SA controversy Just Stop covered demonstrates as much.
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 No it usaully IS
But guess what, that stuff does not get covered
The defenders , Take every little bit of dumb criticism super seriously but then when there is actually well constructed criticism you just lump it in with the bad and ignore it so they can live in a fantasy world where Viv is perfect
@@mkgaming5823 There is only one criticism I agree with and that the show needs to work on it's pacing.
But other than that, I feel that the rest of the criticism even when it's legit is flawed. But whenever I offer up a counterargument you all throw a bitch fit like I'm supposed to just shut up and accept your word as the gospel. You wanna give criticism? you better be prepared to defend your stance as with any debate.
Viv isn't perfect, but you know what? Her shows are perfect for me and that's enough.
@@mkgaming5823 yeah yeah yeah keep living in your bubble
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 There's nothing wrong with criticism and no matter how much you like the show, you cannot pretend as if no one should criticize Vivziepop. She isn't perfect, her shows aren't perfect, and her writing isn't perfect. There's a mountain of legitimate flaws that you can bring up which would make these shows much better and I see no reason as to why we shouldn't be trying to make her work better.
I remember Vaggie was originally in Hell because she took her own life. Imagine if Charlie tried to redeem/convince Heaven that someone like that deserved a second chance. How would Charlie react if she Vaggie was so desperate to escape her old life, only to end up in Hell. How depressed was Vaggie on Earth? Why was she depressed? Had Vaggie self-harmed or isolated herself during depressive episodes? Was Charlie aware of any of this? How would Charlie react if Vaggie got redeemed? Could Charlie visit or would they break up?
All that potential, but nope. Vaggie’s an angel now. And I genuinely doubt we’ll ever get another sinner who unsubscribes from life.
And also this whole angel thing not only makes little sense with how Vaggie acts (Yeah. I wonder what kind of weapon can possibly hurt an angel, I can't possibly know and for some reason my back and empty eyesocket itch whenever I think about it), but also it provides nothing to the plot as her being an angel and having wings is redundant detail and in the final fight it barely mattered as I don't even think she flew on her wings even once.
She should've stayed a former human because it makes things way more compelling and have impact as Vaggie is the conduit to what Charlie should consider with the kind that makes her up, plus being half Sinner and Angel does more stuff. Angel and Demon isnt even a good pairing, we see the difference with the two Dante's and why Classic Dante is better vs Reboot Dante.
Not to mention, it makes sense why she would even define herself through being Charlie's protective girlfriend, because Charlie hazbin (laugh you cretins) her only source of positivity and genuine love if she were someone who self-deleted, espescially if it were because of a lack of positive influences on her life. Like seriously, the potential!
Rly? I thought her design always implied she was a fallen angel?
@@ajakakakakback when she had that backstory, her design was WAY dif iirc, but when her official design we see in the pilot came out it looked so similar to the shot in the intro of the angels we saw ig it was changed to her being a former angel bc of the connection
I think the way they portrayed Sir Pentious's sacrifice for the Hotel was also really bad. The fact he just gets backhandedly oneshot by Adam who then drops a one-liner is so anticlimactic, I don't even know how they thought this would be appropriate.
yeah I don't get why they didn't make it an actual dramatic moment; I thought for sure sir pentious was gonna fire his attack, adam would get the classic anime moment where he was totally unscathed, and we'd get 1 last look at sir p's face (maybe he'd be horrified, maybe a tear would roll down his cheek, maybe he'd just give his egg bois a comforting smile, smth like that) before adam kills him. adam just obliterating him before he even fired the attack felt like a joke / like we weren't supposed to care abt sir pentious
Ryan Johnson levels of subversion. Oh, you thought the comic relief character would have a satisfying arc by standing up for his friends. Wouldn't it be fucking hilarious if we reduced him to atoms in a single frame before he could earn his development?
@@tiablue9106 you expect too much from a progressive liberal like Vivziepop
Whedonism and Roganism ruined an entire generation of writing
It was so bad i genuinely found it so funny how the rest of the cast just dropped to the ground crying without taking a second to process anything, then after 5 seconds stood up and went on with the fight
Biggest problem is the show basically bends over backwards to try and justifiy Charlie's whole Redemption thing and makes it look easy when it's not. You can't just take someone whose a murderer, rapist, or some other horrible thing, have them apologize and shit and just magically redeem themselves to where they can get into Heaven.
According to most biblical sources you literally can. As long as you repent for your sins before death, which is basically a religious form of an apology to the almighty, you’re automatically forgiven for all of it. Robot chicken even did a whole skit about that dynamic.
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 Yeah and it was a 20 second skit, not a TV show centered around the premise.
@@thefanwithoutaface8105 except that isn’t the premise. Charlie’s ideas of redemption are intentionally painted as an oversimplification of the issue, bordering on childish, due to her overly optimistic view of the world due to her ‘Disney princess persona’. Especially in episode 2, which is why nobody takes her plan seriously in the slightest. Angel is only there for free room and board, Sir Pentious came because she was the only one to give him the approval she so desperately craved, Alastor tells her to her face that her plan is stupid, and Vaggie clearly as a sense of underlying doubt.
It’s not a story about sinners trying to obtain redemption, it’s a story about Charlie trying to prove that her ideas have merit and stand up against all the naysayers who claim she’s a dreamer with her head in the clouds. From Heaven who acts as a bigoted group believing sinners are always beyond saving (a lot like you actually) to the overlords in Hell who actively benefit from the broken systems.
And speaking of the overlords, Vivizepop went on record saying that while the hotel residents are good people trying to be better the Vees (Vox, Velvette, and Valentino) are bad people trying to be worse. So the creator of the show literally said that not everyone is capable of redemption and not everyone can be saved, so I don’t think the show is ‘bending over backwards’ to try and justify Charlie’s redemption plan when it presents it as a complex issue torn between various social structures.
Do you actually watch the show or just get your information from isolated, out of context clips that are viewed through a negative mindset?
@@Randomyoutuber-4831 Yeah I did watch the show, from episode 1 to 8.
Also Bigoted? Sinners are literal murderers and rapists, they are scumbags and assholes who are being punished for doing evil things.
And don't give me that "not all are" bullshit excuse. Like just Stop Pointed out in this very video the show never shows us any individuals who are in Hell that aren't demeneted blood hungry psychos who'd immediately murder you or me if they saw us on the street.
@@thefanwithoutaface8105 angel dust, husk, sir Pentious, Carmilla Carmine, and Cherri bomb immediately spring to mind. All of them have redeeming characteristics, all of them have virtues accompanying their vices.
You’re acting exactly like the close minded bigots that were lambasted in the song ‘Hell is forever’. Believing that nobody can change and see the entire world in a strict black and white binary.
I had a big problem with Adam's personality. I dont know...i feel like he should've gotten a "holier than thou but secretly evil" prim and posh vibe just like Claude Frollo from hunchback of notre dame, instead of the surfer dude douchebag that somehow got into heaven
Nonetheless, Alex Brightman was the only reason i found the character tolerable
Alex's voice acting did a lot to make Adam a more entertaining character than he would have been otherwise.
Frollo > Frat bro
honestly I think a few things could have been done that would have improved Adam as a character, such as giving him actual depth and, well, *not* having the character be Adam.
Ironically enough, the Bible has a character that fits Hazbin Adam's description almost to a T.
Anyone here remember Samson?
That was Alex Brightman?! How do they keep roping him into vivzie series like this?(He was the robot clown in helluva).
"And he shall smite the wicked and plunge them into the fiery pit!"
This Hazbin long in the making.
Holy guacamole thats a fucking kneeslapper🤣🤣🤣🤣 am i right fellas?🤫🤣
Feel bad.
@@colt1903Did you have your hopes high or low?
@@scarsch1286 what do you mean?
@@colt1903 Going into the show. Expectations wise.
I feel like Hazbin Hotel is one of those shows that would actually BENEFIT from having filler episodes, it just needs to slow the hell down and dedicate episodes to the characters, their relationships with other characters, etc etc.
6-8 episodes isn't enough, we need more 😭
@ashlxserii I feel they had enough money for 2 or more episodes but Viv pissed it away for Broadway voice actors.
I dissgree having only 8 episodes makes rewatching it in one setting an easy movie like experience. Its only 2 hours and 40 minutes of content.
@@ashlxseriimaybe unpopular opinion but 8 episodes was fine, but they should have split it between season 1 and 2.
It's ironic that we see more of humans on earth going to hell in Helluva Boss, even starting from episode 1.
tbf helluva boss is abt killing humans so it makes sense the human world is more involved. but I agree it shouldn't be ignored in hazbin hotel, both the hotel and IMP cater to sinners after all. I hope the lives of angel, alastor, etc are factored in someway
@@tiablue9106It was about killing humans, now? The drama of Blitzo's life
@@Ismazure a sad yaoi fanfic for 2 losers who cant express their feelings
Yeah
Tbh its fucking boring
Helluva boss would've been better if it was like a monster of the week episodic show
@@mdalos0624 yeah, And on top of that, some of the episodes are not even salvageable, for example the one in the cabin, where they show how useless Moxi is not only doing absolutly anything, and they show how superior Milly is in everything, tell me, when Moxy has had an episode where he shows that he doesn't need anyone? And the songs in that episode were horrible too
charlie would be very appalled if she realized that I.M.P was responsible for overpopulation of hell
I’d say HH’s biggest problem was it’s fumbling of it’s core concept: REDEMPTION.
The entire point of the hotel was to redeem sinners, but Charlie had, and still has, no evidence that redemption is even possible, so there was no reason for the Angels to listen to her.
On top of that, people like Adam and Lute show that things that are considered sinful can still be done in Heaven, so what’s the incentive to actually REDEEM yourself?
Edit: I believe this video will help as it articulates my opinion better I have.
ruclips.net/video/8J9LDJsbWdk/видео.htmlfeature=shared
well heaven is shown to be a cool place even tho the ppl running it are pricks. better to spend ur afterlife in a safe, cheery utopia than a craphole city where u gotta worry abt gang wars and cannibals and w'ever else on a daily basis, right?
but as lucifer said, heaven isn't as great as charlie thinks and I hope they keep expanding on that beyond the higher-ups being jerks. like showing more dark spots in heaven as there are more bright spots in hell (not the most original idea but)
I don’t want that! The whole point of the show is redeeming sinners to get to Heaven. If Heaven is as bad, if not worse, then Hell… then what’s the point of trying to redeem yourself?
@@duncanharrell5009 it rlly depends on the direction ig, but I saw someone give the idea that charlie's focus would shift from helping sinners get redeemed, to generally making hell a better place, once she becomes disillusioned w/ heaven. still helping ppl, but no longer trying to impress heaven.
but again, idk if they'll go that route; they'll prolly stick w/ the idea of heaven being a utopia and hell being a craphole for at least some time
@@duncanharrell5009 To be honest, Heaven looks like a preppy town for snobs. Like, it's way better than Hell, but beside that it acts like Earth: it have restaurants, its own economy, politicians, war criminals, brands. Heaven is just better version of Earth, while Hell is worser version of Earth in this universe.
Heaven is different than hell tho? Emily and Sera aren’t like Adam and they are higher than him
Hazbin Hotel only having 8 episodes in its first season feels insanely rushed.
Edgerunners and Over The Garden Wall have 10 episodes but the creators did far better.
Only feels rushed because they crammed 24 episodes of plot into 8 episodes rather than writing a story fit for 8 episodes
I love the show. But, it did feel rushed . Especially with the songs. Love them! Just kinda didn't tranist smoothly
It was probably the streaming rule one season becomes two
genuinely what is it with animated tv shows not even maxxing 10 episodes runtime for a full season nowadays? like... hazbin hotel, fionna and cake, scott pilgrim takes off, arcane, invincible; except the last two were at least given 40 minutes per episode instead of 24. is giving writers in the animation industry like two seconds to establish their story a new trend or something? i swear they used to be much more generous.
The angels are the most wasted in terms of potential I think. They could’ve been characters that snapped Charlie down to reality. The reason for declining Charlie’s idea could’ve been because of her not having proof that the hotel could work. Adam could’ve revealed more details about him and Lilith’s relationship; making Charlie realize that her mom wasn’t as good as she thought she was. Maybe the angels could’ve even taken over the hotel and actually start making it better and help Charlie realize what it takes to redeem people.
Yeah, Charlie REALLY needed more evidence about the hotel's success before doing that court case.....
If she hadn't been so foolhardy then, maybe the hotel could've been used as a place for sinners to hide during the exterminations. And eventually, a few sinners might have joined the hotel just because they liked the vibe there.
Just saying, most likely sinners are going to join the hotel for reasons OTHER than getting a spot in heaven.....
@@DrawciaGleam02 Why would they even want to go to heaven? From the looks of it the place is just as immoral as hell, just it's better at hiding it. It feels like the idea of heaven in this show was completely fumbled
That's just be a different cartoon. And Lilith plot is a show's mystery, why would it drop so much about her so early.
@@redwithcoffee619
Yeah I wish we knew more about heaven.....
Right now it's basically like people dreaming about going to Disneyland, but when they go it's a bad travel experience. 😆
@@DrawciaGleam02 The entire point of heaven is redemption and becoming what a human should aspire to be. The topic is up for debate as to the details but the general sense is virtue, honor, kindness, justice, discipline, ect. Angels should be honest even if the truth may hurt, believing in her cause but making it very clear she has no idea what she's doing.
But instead this.. "interpretation" completely drops the ball. She gets no support or guiding hand, no wisdom, not even protection in such a hostile environment when again Heaven would be in full support of what she's trying to to achieve. Looking at the Hunchback of Notre Dame, the main villain claims to be a man of God and yet this couldn't be further from the truth. In the end, he's not rewarded simply because he cheered for the right team, he was met with fire and visions of demons before his terrible end. In this show however, I get the feeling the writer doesn't understand that God would hate more than half the angels seen in this show.
It’s Viv and her writing. She doesn’t think about her own story for longer than five minutes and just wings it.
Worst part is she knows this but doesnt care, we have a problem with that? It's just noise to her and misunderstanding of the truth.
It’s weird how she know to show Charlie’s daddy issues in the pilot, but is tell in episode 1
In the pilot, it’s phone call part
And then she banks on crude language and edgy humor. Like, its meant to be a mature show, but its only 'mature' in the sense that an edgy 14 year old thinks is mature. Its surface level at best.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 Even The Amazing World of Gumball, despite being a Cartoon Network show that was rated PG, not only had way better humor than this supposedly "adult" show but also managed to be way more clever and edgier than the entire first season of Hazbin Hotel. Some jokes are adult too and have good shock value, like that cutaway gag involving the Watterson family destroying their computer after Nicole looks up Darwin's browser history, or that one scene where Gumball opens a door only for him to accidentally catch Banana Joe watching "fruit porn" on his laptop (which is just a video of a man peeling a fruit). And what makes it better is that since TAWOG is a kids' show, you are thrilled to see how many inappropriate adult jokes they somehow can get away with. Of course, there are boundaries so it doesn’t get too explicit to the point that it's repetitive and gross.
That's the difference between these two shows. TAWOG has an actually good writing team and the comedy happens very organically because the characters are all goofballs living in a wacky world, while Hazbin Hotel tries way too hard to be funny to adults by relying on forced swearing and edgy jokes 24/7, but doesn't have good writers to execute them properly and clashes badly with its emotional moments.
The most impressive thing is TAWOG's episodes are often made in a really short amount of time. With some even being finished within a bloody week
Something funny I noticed was how Alastor was barely mentioned in this video.
He's literally the best part of this shit show
I KNOW RIGHT? Despite him always being my favourite Hazbin character you can completely remove him and the show is exactly the same.
Which to me just says I would have loved for him to have his own show instead lol.
@@RJS2003Well, I love Alastor but he does have his problems. It is so inconsistent that it is clear that the team does not know what route it is going to take; whether the pasifist, neutral or genocidal. We know he's hiding things, but his behavior changes from scene to scene. But its inconsistency is the only consistent thing about the series.
alastor reminds me of villainous' black hat- super powerful evil entity supplying power to the main cast, and the most recognizable character of the cast irl.
but instead of doing what villainous did- recognizing that black hat was best as a background driving force- they just...kept alastor in the main cast, doing nothing. they desperately want us to think he's super cool and powerful when he's basically a glorified lamp. i don't even like black hat and i can admit he was done ten times better than alastor.
it feels really insecure, like the writers (or producers) were worried people wouldn't stick around if the fan favorite wasn't front and center 24/7.
@@geet9830but Al isn’t shown as powerful in the show. He lose to Adam and metaphorically lose to Lucifer. You don’t usually have your super cool powerful character look like that
I do actually miss the trend in cartoons for season 1's being dedicated to "A Day In The Life" plots because those types of episodes made me care enough about the characters to root for them and understand their emotions in the big battles later on. Steven Universe's original ending actually worked for me because I knew beforehand how the corrupted gems and the crystal gems themselves felt about corruption. Seeing centipeedle get to interact with Steven for that brief moment warmed my heart.
It's not a bad way to do things, but I feel a lot of shows that develop from episodic plots to ongoing plots end up taking too long to get to the point. "Steven Universe", "Amphibia" and "Star Vs The Forces of Evil" are all shows where I've had this problem.
Given the set up of the pilot, "Hazbin Hotel" does feel like a show that would have been better off starting off as character-focused before building up a bigger plot.
@@Corrector1 I'm honestly tried of these cartoons seemingly being the only GOOD type of cartoon for western fans.
Thank god for Smiling Friends
The first season did not need an antagonist at all. It should have just stuck with its own characters and let the bigger plots happen in the next season.
One thing that constantly bugged me about hazbin hotel that nobody else has seemed to address or feel the same about it just how underwhelming the characters are veiwed as by other characters, i'm not exactly sure how to describe it but such as Rosie falling to recognise THE princess of hell, how easy it was for Vaggie to get into the angel killers place, Alastor having a petty fight with literal lucifer, it just feel like these characters should have more weight to them -- this is more looking at it aswell as looking at in the the context of Helluva Boss but Stolas is seen as more royalty then literally the princess and king of hell, just annoyed me more then anything.
I completely agree with you! Like, for example, Charlie is the princess of Hell but get disrespected like she’s a commoner or low rank demon. Even though she’s obviously shelter, she shouldn’t be that naive. In episode 7, she didn’t recognize that Alastor took her to Cannibal Town but she should had because she’s the princess! It would had made much more sense if she had been an angel who came to hell to help the sinners redeem themselves.
@@millsgurl8358 Worse, in episode one she presents the cannival neighborhood in her song.
watching Charlie, the princess of hell, get disrespected by Valentino, who is way below her in caste, absolutely broke the immersion for me. Like girl, YOUR FRIEND IS BEING RAPED BY HIM!!! DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN CRY ABOUT IT
Since Lucifer once told Charlie "You don't take shit from other demons", I'm surprised he didn't make Alastor's head and butt switch places.
I agree especially with Lucifer and Alastor. But I think it's why people are saying fans are carrying the show. Just for example, even before HH came out, people shipped the two and the joke of "haha, Charlie calls Alastor daddy too" was being played around with. So, it's possible that the creator felt like she didn't need to build upon characters interacting or meeting each other because fans already did that with their work. It's not an excuse or anything, it's still bad, just maybe that's what could have happened which I wouldn't be surprised
To the people who say that Vivziepop explains lore in her podcasts in response to others complaining that it isn't in the show, let me put this in perspective for you. Imagine if Rebecca Sugar did this with Steven Universe. Imagine if she never explained the concept of fusion in the show but did in an interview or something.
Wouldn"t that SUCK?
You shouldn't have to rely on outside sources to explain important lore thats apart of a show. That should already be explained.
I excuse Helluva Boss for this since its still a web series, but HH is now held at the same standard as every other animated show. It's not excusable.
As an author, that would be like me writing a book without explaining a huge plot point within the story, but instead in a blog post on my website.
I feel like Adam's reasoning could have been so much easier and better justified if it was simply as revenge for Lucifer getting both of his wives (Lilith and Eve) in the sack. "Lucifer stole not one, but BOTH of my wives... so I'm going to systematically slaughter his people every year in retribution" would have probably played a LOT better than "I just do it cause I can and it's fun." It would at least have given him proper motivation for his actions. I also would have liked to have seen Lute fleshed out more. Most of the exorcists just go along with it because "Well, our boss is telling us to do this, so... we do it." because who are they, low-level angels, to decline/deny an order from someone who's basically 2nd only to God in a lot of eyes or such. But Lute is different... clearly... but we never get a good sense as to why.
THATS LITERALLY THE FIRST THING I THOUGHT TY FOR SAYING IT
I get people whine about "sympathetic villains" but Adam could have that motivation of revenge and still be a villain. People conflate understandable motive with automatic sympathy which isn't true.
Us fans having to do the heavy lifting and make things make sense.
@@haveagoodday7021 I think people don't have a problem with sympathetic villains so much as shows/movies/novels acting like a sad backstory is a replacement for a redemption arc
There is a video talking about the nuance of Adam I watched recently.
when characters die in hell do they go to hell part 2
When they are killed by angelic weapons, it’s a more permanent death. If you say get stabbed by another sinner you will come back after a while.
Respawn queue
layer 2
From what I heard from Viv’s livestream, podcasts, or QnA
Whenever is Sinner is killed via angelic weapons their souls and essences becomes embedded into hell, which explains the eyes all over hell
However take that with how you will since this information has not been officially confirmed in the show.
@@no_0riginality937 I hate how out of show sources are being used to explain away unexplained stuff that NEEDS to be explained in the show. It just shows either bad writing, or very bad pacing that they couldn't explain necessary world details in the show itself
It's like you read my mind. My friend and I both watched this show and she didn't notice any of this stuff while I noticed a lot of it. I went to the Internet to see if anyone else shared my criticisms but a good number of the talking points I saw were as shallow as "Viv put a lot of gay people in hell: therefore she thinks gay people belong in hell". It made me feel like I was taking crazy pills.
Er, showrunners came out and stated that you can't go to Hazbin's hell for being LBGT+.....
For real, there are real points to be made but a lot of people just make stuff up or make total leaps just to shit on the show
@@DrawciaGleam02 Even if characters did go to hell for being gay that wouldn't be a point against the show because A: a big theme of the show is how some people are in hell unfairly and B: it's Christian hell so it would make sense that gay people would be in hell.
@@diurtydantv8061It's vaguely Christian hell but it's definitely a wasted opportunity.
*sigh* Of course
I believe vivziepop has mastered the art of “Fumbling The Bag”
One idea that I wrote up for Adam's motivation is that since his days as the first human in heaven, he's lost the esteem and special privileges that came with it. With heaven gaining more rules and becoming more and more boring for his eternal existence, he decides to implant the idea that the demons in hell may uprise and that he should go down to kill them once a year. However, it's all just a mask to go spend time in a place with no rules where he can commit all the sin, indulge in all his vices, and kill whoever he pleases annually. Essentially playing god amongst being far weaker than he is to enjoy the lawlessness of hell without consequence.
(Also, adding this, the reason he hates sinners so much in this version is because both of his wives gave into sin before they could ascend to heaven, leaving him alone in paradise with nobody to spend it with which lead to his spiral into boredom.)
Especially when you consider that the last thing he says before his death was that because mankind from him, people (including everyone else in hell) should be worshipping Adam. I’m guessing that because he kills the sinners in hell, which are meant to be bad people, he probably sees it as a opportunity that if he’s killing bad people and with the fear that the residents of hell could potentially uprise against heaven, he wants to be seen as a hero and believes that he should be worshipped as such.
But I’m not sure if Season 2 will explore that idea or not, if Adam does end up being in hell after dying in the S1 finale.
With Sir Pentious, he was already on track to be a good person. He just needed to give up the whole "I need to be a big villain" delusion. He wasn't a bad guy to begin with. Based on what's in the show, we don't even know why he would be in hell to begin with. He's nice with few negatives, as he seems to be the only one who wanted to be "a good guy".
Apparently when Sir P was alive, he was an industrial tycoon, who owned several factories and sweatshops in Victorian England. Like what Just Stop said, the show would’ve benefited if they’d dived into the characters back stories of when they were alive.
short reply: I think the issue is redemption is such a complex issue but the show so far has treated it like such a simple one
longer reply: what u said was basically part of the problem---we don't know why sir p is in hell. does he deserve it? based on what we see, not rlly. but we see so little. to us he's "nice w/ a few negatives" but was he always like that? if he was a baby murderer when he was alive would u still say "he's not bad, he just needed to chill out and be himself"? see what I mean? I didn't take as much issue w/ the whole thing as just stop did, but I had similar thoughts
@@tiablue9106I mean it the mystery of the show so it’s not a writing flaw. I do wanna add that things like Just not believing in god can deem you to be a sinner in some religions
@@Yami-mugoni613 But this obviously doesn't follow the Christian faith too closely, otherwise we wouldn't have Lilith at all.
So the point of saying "the smallest thing sends you to hell" while Adam gets to be in heaven for no reason is moot.
@@Yami-mugoni613in a show abt redeeming sinners, what the sinners did to end up in hell shouldn't rly be a mystery. that should be like a major part of their development, shouldn't it? like u said, did they do smth as minor as not believe in god, or did they nuke an orphanage?
I doubt the series is done unraveling the rules of this universe, hence why I don't think it's that big a problem now. but given that sir pentious has already gone to heaven, I was just surprised the series was cool w/ "eh he wasn't a bad guy to begin with so he didn't have to do much to redeem himself" and I hope the rest of the show doesn't brush that under the rug--how many others are in hell who seemingly don't deserve it?
The problem with Charlie is that she's clearly an expression of Vivziepop. When she says, "the hotel isn't working," she doesn't mean "the hotel isn't redeeming anyone," but rather, "nobody is believing in the hotel." And that's because Vivziepop's response to criticism or failure of her shows is not "my show is flawed and needs improvement" but rather "people need to recognize how great my ideas are."
It's the same problem all these self-insert characters have. They are static, and all the dynamic characters change to validate them.
Once upon a time, editors would make sure this kind of character never got a budget, and it was restricted to fanfiction, but it seems like a lot of big money is going into shows with this kind of main character. Some people call every main character a Mary Sue, but sometimes it's actually true, and it's been happening a lot more the last decade.
It's funny because Vivi even wrote daddy issues into Charlie (like she does with literally every protagonist she writes) as if the self-insert allegations weren't bad enough with the MC for Hazbin Hotel.
The show is almost a meta-commentary on itself, with Charlie's struggle to get the hotel seen as a legitimate venture being representative of Viv's own struggle to get her shown to be a success.
By the way, a really important detail you missed that literally contradicts the entire premise of the show is when Charlie tells Lucifer's tale during the intro of the first episode.
Keep in mind she is the one telling the story, she is reading it out and even Vaggie heard her.
She states in the story that the exterminations are made with the intention to prevent Hell from rising up against Heaven... Like, she KNOWS the real intention of the exterminations, she KNOWS they don't actually give a shit about overpopulation and that it's all about a corrupted system deliberately oppressing them. So how come she later on still thinks Redemption is the only way to save his people and somehow convience the angels???
As small as this moment is, that small line throws away the entire premise.
Not really, her goal was to create a pipeline to heaven that sinners could take to redeem themselves. Which would simultaneously weaken Hell’s pool of foot-soldiers while also strengthening heaven’s own numbers.
But more than that, it would end the exterminations outright which bred resentment towards heaven and turned them into a common enemy that could unify all the warring gangs and factions in hell. Thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy
15:15
“It was this girl, Hollow Knight”
I bursted out into laughter lmao
The interesting thing about Charlie's "daddy issues" for me is that it was a facet of her character that was established so differently in the pilot. She just leaves her mom, who is too busy to answer, an awkward phone message. And in that message full of self-doubt, she wonders if "Dad was right about me." It's a heavy moment that says a lot about her relationship with both parents without outright spelling it out. It is also more dramatic than I think the final show wanted, or rather, needed to do with Charlie and Alastor's relationship.
The show clearly wanted that swift resolution in order to make the Heaven stuff in the next episode happen, so for better or worse, playing it for laughs from the start with blunt "haha, daddy issues" jokes makes it easier to swallow the idea that they can solve the bulk of their problems in a single episode. That's just my guess though; it could have been a choice made separately from the desire to cram so much into eight episodes.
Yeah but if they made Lucifer a looming sinister presence in Charlie's life, then he wouldn't be a wholesome adorkable Tumblr sexyman, now would he? And that would break the viviziepop writing creed.
yeah if the pilot's supposed to be canon then I hope they address at some point what this "dad was right about me" means in the series' context. bc the worst I can see the lucifer we met saying abt charlie is "you're wasting your time with this hotel thing" (ignoring how in the series lucifer seemingly didn't know abt the hotel at all before his visit). I can't see him calling her a failure to her face or smth...
they built up charlie's daddy issues like that and as much as I love lucifer, he feels disconnected from the idea of him we got based on what charlie had said--not just in the pilot but in the series. she said she and lucifer have never been close but then sings w/ him abt how they love each other more than anything. this dude who seems to adore his daughter rlly ignored her for like 7 yrs bc he was depressed? basically I'm saying I hope they don't act like charlie and lucifer just have a perfect relationship now, and expand on the mistakes lucifer has made
Lucifer feels like he was being built up as a much more flawed character. It feels like they changed his personality without changing his relationship with Charlie and the end result is that I'm not even sure why there's any conflict between them to begin with.
It was another wasted potential in the show. The creator stated that Lucifer doesn't really support Charlie nor the hotel, heck he didn't really even care about the residents all because he enjoyed his status as King and had to keep a status quo for the exterminations to happen. When I read that, to me, I thought he was a sinister, crafty tyrant in cahoots with Heaven or something but nope we were just left with generic 'it's all better in a matter of seconds' because we sang about it
It also doesn't help that we've never shown 'why' Charlie has Daddy Issues. Like was it due to the separation? That flasback where Lillith takes an infant Charlie from Lucifer?
That doesn't work since when we're introduced to Lucifer he's just screwing around with rubber ducks, when he gets the call from Charlie he drops everything to go visit her without a moment's notice.
So where is this estrangement coming from?
Charlie could have called Lucifier at any moment and he would have been there near-instantaneously.
I am so glad you brought up how overlooked it is that we never really go over what sinners did when they were alive. Critics rarely bring this topic up, which I find baffling since you'd think that'd be an easy avenue to better explore characters like Angel Pentious. It would give the audience a better gauge of where they sit as well in terms of if they can be redeemed or not.
The best way I can articulate my thoughts on this show is as follows:
If I have to rely on fan material (fics, comics, etc) to get more enjoyment out of these worlds and characters that genuinely interest me because the ACTUAL SHOW left me feeling so underwhelmed - rather than enjoy it as supplimentary side content on top of the world as it is, something is seriously wrong.
I totally agree
I've been seeing way too many AUs that are far more interesting than the actual show.
Super agree.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
That goes to RWBY too
A lot of the great parts of Hazbin Hotel are concepts that are done infinitely better in The Good Place which dives into the reasons the characters got where they got and how they could be redeemed. And what redemption even means.
That doesn’t mean anything if the whole show is just an overambitious mess
@@user-en6jw2cc4n well now I know to just watch the good place instead of attempt to sit through 8 episodes of poor writing
i like how literally every show viv makes always decends into Yaoi even when the focus is supposed to be the women
Her reasoning was basically
Helluvaboss is meant to be male focused and hazbin is meant to be female focused
She mightve lost the plot
I think pacing and coherence is Viv's biggest issue with writing, not just for Hazbin, but for Helluva as well. As you said in your video, she has way too many ideas she wants to include into her show that nothing really follows a coherent and reasonable timeline of development, and even the individuals feel really jarbled because it's jumping between so many ideas. I watched Hazbin with a few friends in a call, and we could barely keep up with all the new additional information it kept piling onto itself, and we were left not feeling dissatisfied, but just confused on what even happened
While having only 8 episodes DEFINITELY contributed to this issue, her problem with pacing is an issue she consistently had even outside of this limit
My other issue I have with Hazbin is kind of... I hate to say it, but the fact its overly-edgy? I'm not sure any other way to word it, but everything the characters do feel so hyperbolically evil or angelic or way too much of something (especially in Hell, where everyone is constantly just killing people and acting evil and mean 100% of the time) that we can barely process them as characters or people
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
I think the worst thing to happen to a show isn’t when it’s bad, but when it didn’t need to be bad but it was anyway.
Exactly, so much wasted potential! 😭
With Angel Dust, I think it would have been better if he was still struggling with his vices, and just before they stop spying, he tries to take care of Nifty and keep her safe. It would show improvement, not someone instantly fixed, but he's trying and on the path to being clean.
Did you not see the whole bit with Valentino? The issue with him is his unwillingness to stand up for himself, it was pretty well established. The drugs are an accessory to that, the main problem is the pimp. That's the point of the "hell is other people" theme the show's trying to tell. Did you not get that?
One thing that I always wonder is: did they knew they’re getting two seasons. Or was they told they’ll get two seasons after the production for season 1. Cause the main rebuttals to the pacing is “oh they didn’t knew if they’re getting any more eps”
Great video and keep up the amazing work.
They knew partway through S1 that they'd get S2, but we don't know how many episodes, so whatever story they wrote across both seasons could still be affected by not knowing if they'll be given more time, especially if S2 is revealed to be just as short as S1.
To add we do know it was latter into the production that they learned they had a season 2. How late into production we don't know tho.
They knew. Vivzie acted unprofessional, so Amazon only greenlit two instead of three. She would've gotten even more time had she acted like an adult.
@@gem9535
Wait what. Where did the information came from
@@gem9535 gonna need the proof for that statment you just made.
I whole heartedly believe this show would’ve killed it with 16 episodes. Just give each of these characters one more episode and they’d have more breathing room. It feels like it’s being strangled by the scope of the writers and constraints of 8 episodes, gotta take that writing noose off or at least loosen it a bit.
Agreed, almost 100% of my criticisms with the show are that it needed time to spread things out.
@@47ratsinahoodie tbf, a good writter should be able to handle constraints in a creative way. Sure, more time would be great, but sometimes you gotta work with the cards you are dealt with, you know?
Vivzie should've worked within the constraints she had. Cut plot threads, foreshadow future events of future seasons, etc.
@@47ratsinahoodieTbf there’s a lot of evidence that Vivzie would’ve probably just added more characters and storylines in that timeframe instead of using it to flesh out the existing characters. Just look at Helluva Boss. There’s some great glimmers of character depth in there, but it’s been going on for 2 seasons now and we still hardly know anything about most of the characters. We keep getting new characters and dramatic plot lines instead of focusing on the core cast of characters (Blitz and his team).
Also writing a story to fit the amount of episodes you’re given is a skill most TV writers learn. You’ll never be able to request the perfect amount of episodes you need unless you’re a mega hit show. It’s common to cut content and rewrite plot lines to fit the episodes you have. It’s the writers responsibility to figure out how to convey their story in the timeframe they’re given.
There a reason why the term "kill you darlings" exist, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
@@blade8741 A writer should also be given a reasonable time to work with. Hazbin Hotel was pitched as a show that needed a lot of time show off the world and characters. It's difficult to introduce characters and plot points we need to care about in 8 episodes with a world with SO much going on. There would've had to be almost nothing going on for 8 episodes to work well, and then the story both sucks and long time fans are left unsatisfied :/ also, nowadays I don't understand the idea of 'foreshadowing future seasons' events' because next seasons aren't a promise. If you spread out the story over a stupid small amount of episodes too thin, you risk the show getting cut off in the worst spot, leaving too many things unanswered. I'd see the 'a good writer should be able to blah blah blah' point if they were at least given a reasonable amount of time for this kind of story. Either a slightly longer season or longer episodes. Not saying they need 20eps to prove they can write (iirc Viv was only asking for 10-15), but at least give them time they can actually work with. A24 basically gave the Hazbin team brownie ingredients when they proposed the idea of making a cake and said "Okay now make the cake." You can if you really try, but if you're proposing a cake, shouldn't you get the ingredients for a cake? It seems like both a waste of time and money to try and get a cake from brownie ingredients and leave it a toss up as to whether it's a good cake or not. Why not just do it right the first time?? Sorry, I'm just REALLY fucking tired of studios disrespecting animation and creatives in general. They either don't give them time, executives fuck with the writing, or they don't advertise the shit, and then they act like they had no hand in the outcomes unless the product ends up a hit.
The pacing, as I've been describing it, is like a group chat RP session going on, where everyone wants to get their characters developed and aren't the best at the pacing of a story, especially when everyone's tryna get in there and do their thing.
This is like a group RP session but instead of something like a discord server with multiple channels to talk, it's all one single chat group
thats actually the best way i could ever describe it
I will say with Adam, you can't give a character a mask for the whole show, then on the final episode, reveal their true face, and then just kill them off with no more character development.
You just remind me that Netflix She-Ra did that very same thing with one of its villains, Shadow Weaver.
Korra did this as well. Why would people in heaven need to hide behind masks anyways? Adam eventually learned he was naked and hid from God to hide his shame. So this mask is another version of his shame? So how does this tie into slaughtering people? See, basic understanding of Adams story and you could have such a better plot.
@@Pangora2 Yet another example of Vivziepop knowing nothing about Abrahamic mythology and only relying on pop culture references.
I think it's kind of absurd when people defend the show's pace and half baked nature by bringing up the number of episodes. Shows like Infinity Train and Over The Garden Wall have 10 episodes per season/series (Infinity Train does have 4 seasons but each season is focused on a different cast/story and mostly stand on their own while still including overarching plot points or recurring characters) AND their episodes are half the length, so they actually have significantly less run time, yet their stories are significantly more impactful and cohesive due to being much more focused.
The people making Hazbin Hotel didn't adapt and use their time effectively. If they didn't know what to prioritize given their circumstances, I really doubt a longer run time would have fixed all of it's problems.
I do understand why it happened though. The future of animation in the industry seems really shaky right now, I totally understand why someone would rush to cram in all of their ideas if they're unsure if they'll get renewed or not, but I don't think it was the right move, quality wise.
Personally, I think a show that's well written but got cancelled before it finished will always be more fondly remembered by fans, and the blame of it being unfinished will mostly be pinned on higher up forces, while a show that's rushed and poorly written will be less revered and easier to forget about or dislike in the long run, and the blame will get put on the writers, but that's just my preference.
They seriously could've done more if they cut out unnecessary things including moments with Carmilla and Heavan, Hazbin is already so big of an IP and just focusing on S1 as if it's the last but still do alot with those in Hell and mainly the cast with atleast few hints of say the 3 V's which get built up would have very likely meant a Season 2 would be given. However Viv and her team do not understand any of this simple logic, I just came up with what I did on the fly.
That's because these shows work on condensed episodic plots with throwaway leads, or one off stories. Infinity Train was planned to have multiple protags over the course of different seasons so of course it was paced correctly, it was planned to. And it literally took place on a bunch of self contained train cars with their own little worlds, making it episodic, ridiculously easy to keep pacing with that, nothing wrong with it either. Over the Garden Wall is a self contained story that ends. Ongoing plots with worldbuilding focus tend to need to keep the pacing up if it isn't more then 10 episodes. You don't really know much about writing constraints or working on a limit. Also, Infinity Train got canceled (still actually mad that it did), and shows like this have to shoot their shot, so don't you DARE act like that when you're clearly some AI generated bad actor.
@@bloodyidit4506Hazbin hotel took ten years loo
Not just inconsistencies but plot holes. Inconsistencies can cause plotholes. Lots of plotholes. This series needs a reboot.
the biggest plot hole I noticed was Vaggie not knowing angels could be harmed with angelic weapons when she literally got her eye taken out by one.
@@Gayintheback Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Carmilla wasn't even wearing Angelic weapons. Her shoes were white not silver. Angelic weapons are silver. It should be a light grayish color but with special effects like in HB...
The fact that Hazbin hotel just released, it's on its first season, and people can already see that it needs a reboot is.... yikes. (I agree with your point I'm just saying that for a show this is really bad)
@@Gayinthebackthe only explanation I can find for that is "Vaggie thought she was fallen and the fallen CAN be harmed by angelic weapons" or "she meant she didn't know angelic weapons can kill the angels, not harm them, you misread the scene"
@@X-SPONGED No, the point is that Vaggie would have died by the angelic weapon which led everyone to confusion since she didnt die. Plus her eye would have been recovered along with her wings due to the power of love, I guess. Whatever, Vivziepop.
Something I wanted to bring up from Schafrillas' review also sticks here (regarding Angel's trauma). They really don't know how to handle it with tact. On one hand, it subtly tries to say that his trauma and Husk's gambling addiction are comparable in "Loser Baby" even if another interpretation could simply be that they recognize their self-destructive tendencies and want to heal like JS offers. On the other hand, to try and have a serious convo about this sexual trauma in the same episode as Sir Pentious being dragged against his will into a side room at the bar after nervously proclaiming he's having "sex with everybody" as a joke isn't a good look.
It's similar to how "Helluva Boss" was criticized because one episode shows Stella almost hitting Stolas and it's meant to show that she's a bad person, but Loona attacking Blitzo in the very next episode just for asking that she be nicer to the clients is played entirely for laughs.
Hold on, did Schafrillas actually made a review on Hazbin Hotel?
It doesn't help that Viv said that's her favourite joke in the show.
It's almost like she doesn't 'actually' think rape is a bad thing if she can add a rape joke into a show that 'also' wants to tackle it as a serious issue.
If Viv actually cared to portray rape as this horrible, monstrous thing, the thought of making a joke scene with rape as the punchline would never have crossed her mind.
That wasn't the same episode loser baby is episode 4. The bar was more episode 6. Its hell making inappropriate jokes is fine. Loser baby i think wasnt even about changing their self destruction it was more about accepting and laughing at their circumstances together.
u referring to Dumbsville?
One of, if not the greatest, and most important rules in all of storytelling is this:
_Show, don't tell._
Hazbin Hotel often *told* us that things happened, and that characters developed.
It never *showed* us _how_ these things happened.
Being *shown* these things, allows us to experience the sensation of an actual story. _Words, actions, emotions;_ not mere descriptions of what already came to pass. The closest we ever got to that, was the interaction between Angel Dust & Husk.
It's incredibly disappointing to see genuinely interesting story beats being thrown into the trash.
I rly noticed it in ep 3 when they said being in the warzone actually helped angel, husk and sir pentious bond. I guess I can see them bonding over going thru such a dangerous experience (as they showed thru them laughing and reminiscing on it) but I felt a bit cheated that all the focus was on vaggie for that whole time. I would've liked to see those 3 get closer and protect each other during the battle
Except it did show them develop cause none of yall saw the show, and you're just telling everyone you did lol
@@bloodyidit4506no they didn’t hazbin hotel goes on the telling you what happened with the bare minimum of showing us that to the point it’s forgetful and underwhelming
@@Jly_1945 You're allowed to have shallow opinions and it's clear you didn't watch.
@@bloodyidit4506 it’s clear ur bitter cuz the majority is right lol
The new Just Stop avatar jump scare!!!
Bro, he's gone through like 6 of these
Why does he look like he has a cold lol
He looks like "Stoner Friend" Bryson now
He looks werid
Its like a Pixar character in 2d
It's the way Vivziepop keeps throwing away interesting ideas all the time. Like, Vaggie being an ex-angel should be a HUGE deal. It has massive implications for what Charlie's trying to accomplish, because if people who were born in heaven can be thrown out (and for fairly petty reasons), shouldn't it be a hugely demoralising blow to the sinners? Shouldn't they shun Vaggie for killing so many demons before she became one herself, and for not telling anyone until she was forced to? Shouldn't it put pressure of Charlie's relationship with her because she's dating a woman who used to kill her own people? But no, Charlie's mad about it for like half an episode, then it's "Let's go home" and everybody is just fine with it - like the person who has most beef with Vaggie is Lute for some reason. It's like Vivzie just can't have something disrupt her OTP so she ignores any potential conflict so she can back to them going "Omg I must protect you! I support you! You're so important to me!" over and over.
Also when we're talking about populations, the main character is a Child of Lucifer. So he's fertile? You can be fertile in hell? Do you know how many doors that opens up? Apparently sex is a huge thing everyone is up to but there aren't babies? Is God providing abortion services in his eternal punishment zone? Yeah, I'm sending you to burn in hellfire, but heaven forbid an unwanted pregnancy! If babies can be conceived, are they also getting killed?
28:30 im so glad someone said this, I always see people say pentious' redemption was one of the best parts about the show but them getting into heaven despite barely showing any character improvement to earn it, really made me scratch my head
Your rant on Adam made me think about how raw a line it would’ve been if Charlie asked him why he wants the exterminations so badly, only for Adam to say: “Why does anyone do anything? Sheer, absolute, boredom”
that could have also played into the edgy-athiest type conception of heaven and hell. The idea that heaven is this sterile boring world where you're not even allowed to feel negative emotions, while hell may be a bit rough, but at least you keep your freedoms.
@@redgeoblaze3752I don't think that would be a better option.
@@redpanda6497 Yeah, I never said it would be a better idea. it would just be an idea with a basis behind it. as opposed to just writing off the cuff.
@@redgeoblaze3752 That's true.
This show really feels like it gaslights Vaggie with that whole song about her needing to fight for love. She's so underused but she's always doing her best.
That isn't what gaslighting means.
Let's think about it this way. She's being told this by demons. Demons are liars. She's being led away from Heaven by liars.
The Hotel getting destroyed after eight episodes is so insane. Ngl I expected the entirety of season 1 being about Angel’s redemption arc and then slowly gathering new patrons to the hotel at the end.
Idk the fight for the hotel feels like such a several seasons in moment because it’s so massive. :/
This show has so much potential but it’s a shame they fumbled this. Could’ve been way worse but also could’ve been so much better.
I have an idea for how to give two of the other characters some more development:
It was showcased to us that Sir Pentious had a thing for Cherri Bomb, so keeping in line with that, why not turn their relationship into an enemies-to-lovers story?
Like after Sir Pentious joins the hotel and meets up with Cherri again, he's so hell-bent on getting his revenge on her, but after the two spend more time together, he starts to realize that she's just really amazing to be around, and he even starts to develop feelings for her, and on Cherri's side, she first starts out as seeing Pentious as nothing but an annoying nuisance not worth her time, but she also gets to see how beneath his try-hard, villainous exterior, he's actually really sweet and caring, that would make Pentious' confession of love for her a whole lot more satisfying, because we would have seen them cultivate an actual relationship.
The main problem with Hazbin Hotel is its creator. Vivziepop can't handle criticism, and so after 10 years of refusing to improve, the disappointment of this show was inevitable.
Get over your hate boner. The show is great. I loved it just because you don't and you don't like The creator doesn't mean you gotta shout it to the world.
yea Twitter is trash place cause sometimes they hate on a show for no reason
It doesn't help that her content gets endlessly praised and touted as some ground-breaking thing when really it isn't. Like okay, she got her indie show picked up by a big studio? But she had tons of help given to her by her rich family too. Out of just "making a cartoon" this show is really vastly overhyped. The way the fanbase will attack people for pointing that out is sickening. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a toxic fanbase for anything ever.
@@blacksesamecandies disagree
Binge watch modern fg to know how to make a boring slug
The only thing toxic is people who shit on this show for no reason
Sure it has flaws no show is perfect but come on
@@blacksesamecandiesYeah and honestly it's not even a milestone anymore, for starters the Touhou indie game franchise manage to spawn various music groups and the fans even made their own anime....TRICE with incredibly professional quality and sold them on dvds and everything, all of this for a franchise with barely any publicity (if at all) outside of some conventions in japan) and with the chillest creator i've ever seen; literally he just drinks beer, spends time with his family and makes the games, no pointless fights, no announcing himself as the next god of games or nothing, just a chill and talented dude.
And that's not the only example, let's not forget about Don't hug me i'm scared another indie project that was so good that made it to tv and again with really chill and talented creators.
And all of this is without mentioning the amount of people who made it into the industry like various animators and the crew behind smiling friends.
Tl:dr the whole Indie to mainstream thing....has already been done... AND MUCH BETTER
Watching a highly critical and negative video on _Hazbin_ after JUST watching a video praising it (schnee's "Hazbin Hotel's MASTERY of tone") is whiplash.
Hey, me too! XD
I like that guy
We need more positivity videos in the future. Not just for Hazbin but many other shows.
@@ern1609 Literally....I get negatively is big but genuinely? It feels off putting compared to the positively at this point even though I know most people don`t hate the show.
@@ern1609 I will say though that like wtih Cartoonshi going through snipbits of this video while I disagree with parts of it (like Adam) it honestly isn`t that unfair, maybe even more fair then his Helluva Boss video in some areas which felt more negative. Hell they both called it a mess but it being a mess doesn`t even necessarily mean that it`s bad.
hazbin is a great case study for why you need filler episodes. if you barely know the characters, what they go through doesn't matter. think of it this way, would you feel more impacted hearing a random person you've never met got killed, or hearing that your next door neighbour who you talked to every morning got killed?
Beautiful points! One of my main gripes with the show was how they handle death. What does dying ACTUALLY mean in this universe??? Because it's so contradictory with adam saying "A man only lives once. Did you forget that hell is forever?" Like, THEN IF HELL IS WHY DO PEOPLE IN HELL DIE???? It's so stupid.
apparently there were lore explanations given (prolly on twitter) how dying in the afterlife works but I forget them tbh. and it's not like they were in the show. I think it's basically that if anything angelic hits u then ur gone forever, but anything else u can recover or smth
@@tiablue9106 those dying in hell respawn... *Painfully*
Makes sense because H311
Angel Purge is FINAL DEATH, though!
@@Ramsey276one
That's fine but it should've been explained in the shown itself, given that it is important information for the setting.
Also wouldn't "you cease to exist" kind of death still be a form of freeing yourself from your supposed to be eternal punishment? Logically there should be at least some sinners, who try to get killed by the angels so they can escape hell.
@@regenbogenwolf Good point there!
Right? I wish they could've gotten into what exactly happens when they "die" a second time. Do they get placed elsewhere? Purgatory? Do they just disappear? Even in just a little sentence or something like "Did you forget that hell is forever?... wellll except for those who get sent to the darkness of course-" and then he could've explained the killings. Fucking SOMETHING
It would of made more sense if Adam’s hatred for demons came from Lilith leaving him for lucifer and then lucifer telling eve to bite into the apple and possible seducing her, so he slaughters countless demons every year out of spite against lucifer for stealing his first wife and getting his second wife banished from the garden of Eden. It would of made the final fight scene were Adam fights lucifer so much more dramatic instead of being treated as a joke and it would of made Adam a much more interesting and somewhat sympathetic character instead of the clown he turned out to be.
Damn. How come i see so many people coming up with better ideas for this series than Vivziepop herself? The same you can see in fanfics, many of them are much better written than the canon.
Fr. Doesn’t mean he can’t be a sadistic piece of shit, who shows 0 care for demons and enjoys the extermination, but a little bit of depth like this would go a long way
And why not have Adam rebuke Lucifer seemingly rizzing up both his wives.
It's like we're supposed to see Lucifer is some Casanova chad whom Adam's wives "didn't seem to hate what he had to offer bow-chika-bow-wow.". The exchange is treated like it's supposed to be a "take that" moment from Lucifer to Adam.
Except, both ended in failure.
We're now told that Lucifer and Lilith split since Charlie was little in episode 5 IIRC. Adam could've mockingly asked Lucifer
"Hey "Casanova" didn't you and Lilith split? Did you drive her away too, or did she just grow tired of you?"
Eve accepting Lucifer's fruit resulted in both Lucifer and Lilith being banished to Hell, which resulted in Lucifer falling into depression.
"Didn't you curl yourself into a ball after the whole fruit fall fiasco? Yikes, after seeing that disaster it's no wonder Heaven never listened to you."
These momentarily stun Lucifer, and allow Adam to get a hit in with his blast, sending Lucifer into the ground. This would've made Adam more intelligent and threatening, but we can't have the villain be competent now can we?
@@TOMNICE coming up with better ideas for the show than the showrunner is not that difficult a feat to be honest.
The main issue with the story is she is using Jewish-Christian mythology without understanding the very basics of their philosophy. Why is sex outside of marriage wrong, why is doing drugs wrong etc. no instead she made Adam a jerk and made the Devil sympathetic. She doesn’t understand why eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was wrong. She made heaven hypocritical without knowing why. Jewish and Christian morality is not about just following rules and being “nice”. There’s more to it.
There is another show on RUclips it’s about the devil and the devil is nice
whats REALLY funny is that bc of this (not understanding the underlying philiosophy) what charlie wants (redeeming sinners) isnt even anti-christian. the idea of people changing and repenting is like...half the point of christianity, to my understanding. its not even a controversial or anti-christian take, its just dressed up in controversial aesthetics
I'll say it Lucifer being an "avid dreamer whos ambitions where crushed" makes absolutely no sense
I am absolutely sure that the "roo" character because vivzie needed to shift Lucifer blame to someone else
Since he's kinda to blame for literally everything that happens in the show
that's probably my biggest criticism with this show. I have long held the belief that it is difficult if not impossible for people who are neither Christians nor Jews to understand the Word of God, and this show is only further evidence of that.
@@asmodeus304 the issue is that even in Christianity, Hell is the absolute end for those who rejected God's offer of mercy. Once you're there, that's it. You're done for good. If Charlie did what that one priest did and attempted to rehabilitate sinners *before* they went to Hell, then yeah. That'd be perfectly in-line with Christian teachings. instead she's trying to redeem people who have already had their chance and chosen to squander it.
No way in hell she has been cooking up the idea of Hazbin for 10 years when we got such a mess of a first season.
I really hate how the show's plot took a running start and went from "let's redeem and help sinners and try to survive in this hellish world" into "WE NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD IN 6 MONTHS" like the whole reason I got into this show in the first place was because the idea of one gentle and loving soul trying to help others in a hellish and dark place like hell is a cool concept. It would've been nicer to move into it during later seasons but it feels like we get the best moments of a 3 seasoned show into 8 20 minute episodes
This advice is going to be really useful to me. Whenever I write something for my webcomic, I focus too much on hitting plot points, and not enough on what those moments mean for the characters.
The term "kill you darlings" exist for a reason, because no matter how much you love them if removing them is necessary to make a better show, then so be it.
Yeah I really recommend localscriptman, Abbie emmons, and d&d dm community really helps a lot with writing advice.
You actually do need to hit plot points. Feely writing can just turn people off if it's all you do. Don't be an extremist.
It seems we all learnt from Helluva Boss's mistakes, except her.
I just hate how it's bad writing in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, that isn't strictly that it's bad, but how it has the same persistent flaws that keep getting ignored and never really fixed. A lot of these, I've noticed, seem to revolve around sex and sexual relationships, and I kind of wish they would stop doing that. They clearly don't have the aptitude or maturity to handle the subject matter.
For one thing, Angel Dust singing about being a "loser, baby!" and trying to laugh it off that he's a victim of Valentino, comes across as unintentionally disgusting. It's multiple examples like that.
I didn’t interpret loser baby like that.. I thought it was about knowing that you’re not alone, and that yes, you’re in a shitty situation with your soul being owned, so am I. We are losers, we’re in the same shit sandwich, so maybe if we stick together things will end up differently.
But that’s the thing with songs, it’ll be interpreted in different ways.
@@A_C_E1537 I respect your point, but I would say that I would not have said my point on "Loser, Baby" if I didn't have reasonable grounds to believe it.
It's like how "Summer Nights" from Grease goes "Tell me more, tell me more, was it love at first sight?/ Tell me more, tell me more, did she put up a fight?" and how I think that one is extremely sus depending on how you interpret that one also, if you want another example.
I'll give "Loser, Baby" credit that Keith David and Blake Roman do sing it really well, and it's a very well composed song. But I hate it in context.
@@ZelnyairMoral arguments? Really?
@@Keurgui1 I'm saying how I'm feeling, but I never said it matters more than how others feel, or you have to agree.
I think Hazbin and Helluva have a unique problem in that when their writing is bad, it is unintentionally horrific and disgusting.
Though this is the whole point- the person who originally replied said they didn't see it that way. Some of it is down to how you interpret it.
In my defence, I do not think I was wielding emotions like a weapon, though. I never said "You should feel the same way as me because I will feel sad". I thought I was perfectly civil and polite with the original replier.
23:20 That's because Charlie is a Mary Sue and Viv can't bear to have her protagonist ever be wrong. *_About anything._*
Honestly? I can respect the show for what it WANTED to do. If I had the opportunity to make a show with the characters I’ve worked on for the past decade, but got told “you have 8 for the first season, then you’ll see what we can do for the second” I’d be going buck fucking wild too. It’s a deeply flawed show, but I respect the attempt. It’s like watching someone trying to do a kick flip and face planting after landing it. Respect for the attempt, but more practice is needed for that.
Yeah. But at some point writers must learn restraint. RARELY there is perfect production and total freedom in any show. I learned a lot from recent shows this lesson, sacrifices is necessary.
@@flowerbloom5782 I agree, and if I was just handed the premise, cutting down is the first thing that I would do. BUT- as someone with a couple passion projects in the background of my shorter stuff- if I’d finally been greenlit to show off something I’d been thinking about since middle or high school, I would have been devastated by the episode count they wound up with and can see a world where I might’ve crammed in as much as I could, lol. Wouldn’t be the right thing to do, but (and I’m not necessarily talking about you) I see a lot of comments really tearing into the creator for overindulging herself or ‘not thinking about it more than five seconds’, when in reality, I think it’s a pretty understandable action I can sympathize with. Maybe if so much of the planning HADN’T been posted online before hand, and she hadn’t had a decade to stew in everything and confuse what is ESSENTIAL to keep (because again: passion project. If she’s anything like me, she gets really attached to ideas and can’t let them go), it would have been easier to cut the cord? But I think the added pressure of everyone expecting to see certain characters and a more complicated story (minus the Heaven stuff, which was the most confusing choice to me) encouraged the team to make something, well, complicated, and they overfilled their plate.
Again, not the right choice, but I understand why it happened. It made for some terrible groundwork and a whole mess of problems, but given all that, I’m actually surprised the show is as fun as it is, even if it falls apart under a microscope.
One plot-hole that pissed me off in particular was that the Exorcists had no idea that their own weapons can kill them. Tell me this then- how was Vaggie's eye cut out? What did Lute use to do that? Hmmm? How did Vaggie not figure that out and tell Charlie in the first place (aside from the fact that it would reveal she was an angel). And how Adam reacted in the finale too- Rather than ,,Oh shit, they figured out our weakness" it was ,,Shit, our weapons can kill us?" HOW DID YOU NOT KNOW THAT!?
This is a good example of a show I wanted to like because of its expressive animation and good concepts... But the writing is frankly terrible.
The obvious choice for serializing this show would be to make it a "demon of the week" redemption story. Showcase Charlie learning about each new person and helping them successfully ascend into Heaven. You could eventually lead up to a villain who tries to destroy the hotel of course, but I think the choice of Adam as the villain was poor.
These points are quite similar to mine.
In the first season, we get to know about the main cast. And the faults/issues of each new patron (for that episode) connects back with one of our cast members, and there troubles.
This works to both flesh out characters like Husk and Angel. While also sticking with the main premise.
Maybe not have the new guest ascend right away. But, still have them leave the hotel, much better then when they arrived.
Not to mention that the V's would have worked well as antagonist for the first season. Since if Charlies plan succeeds, then they have something to lose (ergo, their control/power). Thus, it would stand to reason that they would try everything in their power to destroy the hotel.
And if Viv did want to shift the focus to a grander narrative. Then save that for either a season 2, or 3.
The Angel Beats anime did this plot. People are stuck in the afterlife which seems like it should be a punishment, but there is a limit of sorts, not even a time limit persay. But eventually thigns happen so you get to see the options of getting out, and the show's final arc is an admittedly quick blitz through the solution. It doesn't have to be episodic, but the core mechanics should be ENGAGED with and not left out entirely.
The best I can describe the series is that it feels like it's made from a lonely edgy teen that wrote it and never developed
it's babies first edgy comic but with a high budget
I'm glad a lot of people agree that hazbin needed more episodes and/or more focus on the origional concept cuz like JS said its so annoying when people call anything that doesn't advance the deeper story filler.
Great example if you only wat he'd the episodes of gravity falls that tie into the overarching story you'd miss 2/3rds of the show and wouldn't care about the characters or their relationships to be invested in it anyway
I've just had an idea that could have been interesting to explore.
Why not make Jesus, who died and became the bridge between humans and the afterlife, act as the doorman between Heaven, Hell and Earth (Akin to Hiemdall in his role in the first Thor movie)? I feel like that could be genuinely interesting to see what could come of a character that gave both their life and their afterlife to help humans, only to have to send them through the Hell door time and time again. What would their views on redemption be like? Would he believe redemption to be still be possible after all that time?
This is something I need to say is that Hazbim Hotel doesn't understand how to use swearing in writing, swearing can be a GREAT tool to highlight moments, the word fuck can be genuinely great to make things more emotional, more angry, more intense. And frankly Hazbin Hotel just doesn't understand how to use it, the word fuck is said too much and it makes the word meaningless, fuck loses impact and purpose, it loses the emotional punch it can have, a trailed off quiet under the breath "Fuck..." can add to a moment, it can be a moment of shock, a moment of failure, but if fuck is said 15 times minutes before that moment that fuck LOSES all its punch and reason to exist
This is why I wish in episode 8, Alastor either said "I'm about to end your fucking life" or "What just happened? ...Fuck", and not both.
Yea even when watching the show originally I didn't notice the plot holes or bad pacing. But I did notice how Angel Dust's redemption was speedran and he suddenly was already a better person just in time for Charlie to show Heaven her program works. But Angel Dust's been under Val's control and has been addicted to drugs and sex for so long so his redemption should NOT have been that fast
You said it all, tbh this show feels like it was written for children, shallow writing, songs that explain the episode's moral, 1 dimensional charachters, like who wrote this,
Whats worse is that there actual better written kid shows out there to watch
Something I hated is when Alastor started using modern insults like “clout chasing,” to Vox. Vox should be the one saying that, not Alastor, especially considering how set in his ways Alastor is.
Yeah, I don't like how Alastor shifted into a sassy swearing edge lord as opposed to a shady yet charming radio host how he was in the pilot. It's like they tried to make him progressive in a way, modernized him when he's someone who believes his time period was the best
@@blackchickiedee7 I totally get what you mean. But I always thought of it just being Alastor learning the terms to piss Vox off more. 😅
@@A_C_E1537 well, I can say that just me, because of his mixed background he would understand shady AAVE remarks, maybe even think some are funny. But also, Alastor is from the South where people throw shade or make underhanded comments - I wish we could have seen that with Alastor. I feel like not only would it tie in with his personality but also where he grew up
@@blackchickiedee7 Hm, yeah. That would’ve been nice to see.
So many ideas...
So many plot holes...
10 Writers and it shows...
Your point on how the perspective of the concept of Hell would change if sinners went there for only minor offenses really made think of how great The Good Place handled this sort of concept. Seriously, it does a lot of what Hazbin attempts to do SO MUCH BETTER.
Nice to see a fellow good place fan
I miss the long hair avatar
Zame
Same
Same
I think the pilot is more enjoyable than the show
I think the fan fictions are more enjoyable than the actual show.
I think the whole setup for the Angels Vs Devils/Sinners thing had become too predictable for me. Maybe it's because I've been playing one too many Shin Megami Tensei games, but it just feels clichéd when it ends up with "Heaven bad, Devils are rebels against The System™" yadda yadda yadda. It would've been more interesting to see Hazbin Hotel actually carry out its task of reforming sinners and see each one ascend to Heaven. Maybe instead of focusing on reforming one, we could see a variety of characters in each episode. Each one coming in as a sinner, Charlie figures out what sin they've commited in life, gets to the root of it, confronts them with it, they have a heart-to-heart and by the end of the episode we see them take on a more angelic form. Perhaps it's too simple and may get a tad repetitive, but at least it honours the original pitch of this show. I dunno, just ANYTHING that doesn't devolve to making the angels into dictators and the literal devils as some kinda "misunderstood" underdog.
I was worried it would end up that way, but I think it ended up being more nuanced than that. We see that the other angels aren't as bad as Adam, and in fact most of them are unaware of the exterminations. Sera might not care much about Hell's inhabitants, but she comes off as someone who's genuinely afraid that demons could become a threat to Heaven while Adam seems like he's just making excuses to kill them.
With Hell, it is true that the show whitewashes Lucifer and the higher up demons seem overly compassionate from what we've seen of them, but we also see that many demons are pretty brutal and Angel Dust and Sir Pentious are portrayed as people who are genuinely trying to be better, instead of just being misunderstood. After all, there's no reason for redemption if someone hasn't done anything that they need to be redeemed for.
There are criticisms you can make of how the show handled the conflict, but I still feel it managed to be a little better than "Angels are oppressive asswipes, demons are cool rebels".
@@Corrector1 Bot Account detected
seriously, are you guys not able to do anything other than regurgitate the exact same talking points ad infinitum?
Grey Area-isms and GoodBad-BadGood-ism ruined this show
@@angel_of_rust Amen.
This version of Hazbin Hotel is a slightly more competent High Guardian Spice. Thank you for being a sane voice in the discourse. I wish we would have had you on the production team.
The Butch Hartman avatar takes me back
in all honesty, Viv needs a basic writing class.
It doesn't matter how well she writes if she doesn't let some of the stuff go
That's the main issue. Just let some concepts go
Or have someone else who says yes and no to ideas.
This show needs a therapist.
Like seriously, they need somebody with some kind of therapy background to consult on the script writing.
It feels like they want to do therapy speak but don't know the words they need in any situation.
Religious consultants would help too. Would make the show slightly better.
1:02:21 I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed this.
Don Bluth and Viv are amazing animators. But it’s blatantly obvious that they work best with restrictions instead of free rein; their art and animation style do a lot of heavy lifting for the subpar writing.
Being a good animator doesn’t make someone a good writer just like being a food critic doesn’t make someone a good cook; writing a script and drawing a storyboard are two completely different mediums; it’s why my animation and graphic design professors recommend that all animation majors minored in creative writing.
Hell, Bojack Horseman is the perfect example of how the writing matters more than the visuals. Hazbin and Helluva are the antithesis of this; if the visuals for either show dips in quality, the fans are going to leave in droves.
Wait, what happened to Don Bluth??
What happened with Don Bluth? I didn't hear about it.
The Good Place did this concept infinitely better
omg now i know why i hate this show so much
Oh man hell no it didn't lol, that show and all the netflix original content stuff is nihilistic trash made by underpaid interns and actors who get mistreated to hell and back. Don't defend the big streaming services and their anti-employee and consumer practices.