Admech player since 9th. Been playing throughout 10th and there's a number of problems that other factions don't have to deal with. 1. Our detachments just suck. Skitarii Hunter Cohort is practically the only viable detachment/playstyle because spamming 4+/5++ [STEALTH] bodies is good. However it leads to movement blocking lists that are expensive $-wise and extremely annoying to transport to events. Doesn't feel good. Other detachments, we either jump through too many hoops to get meh buffs (Explorator), the detachment only really helps very specific expensive unit(s) (Cybernetica Cohort & Data-psalm), or doesn't do anything/actively buffs opponents with certain armies/detachments (Rad-zone into Sisters, Dark Angels, etc.) 2. Internal balance is non-existent. Kataphron Breachers are both way too expensive and way too offensively strong stat-wise to balance properly. I rarely take them nowadays because it's 320pts for 6 3+/6++ T7 bodies (and you want to include a 60+ point character on their unit with enhancements). Into lists with Redemptor Dreadnought equivalents Breachers evaporate instantly. Into lists where there's a lot of vehicles, they just auto-win the game if you know what you're doing. There's more to say about their offensive capabilities and other datasheets, but generally everything needs a rewrite/rebalance. 3. Complexity is kinda the theme of Admech? We only really see "pre-programming" in Cybernetica with all 6 strats being in your Command Phase. Honestly we are less complex now than in 9th which is a real pain point for me. There's extremely few targeted buffs from Tech Priests, very few rerolls outside of the Skitarii Marshal (which only goes on the low-damage dealing Skitarii Vanguard/Rangers), we went from having a table of one time use Canticles and 4 one time use Doctrinas to 2 re-useable Doctrinas (and you generally build a list around 1 or the other). All you have to really do in Admech atm is keep a bunch of Battleline in range of your other models to give out the extra Doctrina buff or to proc their unit's improved ability. There's probably more but it comes down to bad internal balance, too many hoops to jump thru, too expensive $-wise (caused partially by bad balance).
Wow very in depth thanks for sharing and expanding our knowledge. Top notch. Its too bad they took some complexity away. I remember they did that for a few factions in 7th edition and it was a huge disappointment.
I also just hate how most weapon profiles are only good for clearing chaff. A majority of the army feels like they use wet noodles and not the esoteric weaponry of the imperium that the AdMech hoard for themselves.
@@reginlief1 I would agree. The closest we get is Breachers with Arc Weapons, and the Onager Dunecrawler with the Eradication Beamer/Neutron Laser. One is a casino cannon which is pretty fun when it hits, the other is just a pretty strong Lascannon. The Heavy Grav cannons and Torsion cannons are mathematically a big downgrade in 98% of games. But again, these are tied to the Kataphron units. Most other weapons feel pretty normal, or at most they are gear for better equipped Guardsmen.
Hey Steve I read on play on that you are educator. Does that mean you are a public school teacher? If so I would love to know what subject. But I am a teacher and just started a warhammer club at my school and love your content on playon and hyperspace. I have been playing warhammer for about 8 months and played several dozen games and you inspired me to play the imperial fist (I took a successor) but you inspired me to play and now I am branching out into other armies and just wanted to say thanks for everything you do.
It's a bit frustrating that Ultramarines get access arguably the best character rules, the most character choices and a primarch. If you pick a different chapter you are stuck playing the worst subfaction of the worst performing army. Feels bad.
Happy New Year to my two favorite RUclipsrs. All the best in 2025! PS, would love a video breaking down Steve's Dark Angels list he used against Michael 💪
I'm an Imperial Fists player who started at the beginning of 10th. I knew what I was getting into, basically choosing the worst army but the one I liked the best. It is equally disheartening and reassuring to see that the Codex Compliant SM are just statistically the worst. I don't play in tournaments, just kitchen table games, and I am 2-10 lifetime with Anvil Siege Force. 2 of those losses were attributed to the best player at my LGS telling me that the Avatar of Khaine moved 12" and had Precision. Nevertheless, I learned to trust but verify and that I wasn't turtly enough for the turtle club. Love the content, please make more!
The main issue I have with the winrate discussion is needing to further look at what playstyle or list/s comprises that number. Like for example the Orks. Their winrate is in the lower end of the acceptable end, but that's basically propped up by War Horde, and maybe Dread Mob plus Bully Boyz in the wings. Doesn't always feel the same way for Da Big Hunt or especially Kult of Speed, I think.
I'm an Ork player and that doesn't surprise me, Orks take a lot of strategy and luck to win. They are so squishy, you have to play them just right or your horse gets shredded. I have had the most success with beast Snaggas because of that one strategem that gives them stealth and boys just lack the punch to hurt anything below medium infantry.
I learned last week that knights can walk through ruins. I basically lost in the deployment step. But also, i went 3-1 at that tournament, with imperial fists. Anvil siege. But i definitely agree with steve. I have to he super creative and steategize everythomg before my turns even start to have a fair chance of winning
I think space marines struggle a bit because a ton of people build a competitive list with killing the space marine defensive profile in mind. Every list I build, I make sure it can kill space marine bodies because they are the median target I fight against
It is not just that. When non marine players think marines , of the non divergent type, they think ultramarines. But peopke want to play their White Scars, Raven Guard or self created chapters. And marines without ultramarine special characters aren't very fun to play.
do you have a link to this info? I tried looking on Goonhammer but couldn't find anything was just curious it seemed so different to like the metamondays
Hmmm … these rankings are VERY different than the data I see from Auspex Tactics! (Except SM at the bottom and SW in the top 5). I’m curious if that’s just a data source issue or if the rankings are shifting that quickly! Hoping to see both of you back on Playon when either of you have the chance! Hopefully finals and grading will be done soon and you both can abandon your families during the holidays to get us some battle report content!
Goonhammer uses stats from tournaments all over the world and compile information very often. GW does the same thing but I feel they lag behind. Goon hammer updates all the time.
I really dont see codex SM getting off of the bottom as long as they keep the chapters in that codex seperated. Its either gonna be Ultramarines get really good enough or even outright broken to carry the faction up in win% or they stay on the bottom as everyone whos trying to make Salamanders and Imperial fist work at all competitively continue to do poorly. That notwithstanding it also means things like the release of Titus's rules today have no bearing on my army. Like cool Ultramarines get another guy to play with. Can i get my chapter master finally? I cant really think of anything else that wont require either nerfing the divergent chapters or making incredibly difficult to balance seperated points cost for units between the codex and divergent chapters like with Imperial Agents.
This. They sell us on the fluff but make it feel like it's Ultramarines or nothing with how they handle the rules. I'm sick of paying for the interactions they get to utilize while I'm just trying to get by. Not to mention they get to have units like Calgar and Ventris while I'm here wondering if Tor Garadon formerly having Lethal Hits was really that bad while also eating +15 points on the Biologis and +5 on eradicators and playing Anvil Siege Force.
I thought Black Templars were even lower still than compliant chapters - I saw a stat somewhere but for the life of me I can't find it but they were also sub 45%
And here we see that winrates really dont paint an accurate picture. Knights are NOT the best army in the game. In fact, they're in the competition for worst army in the game. They're squishy, they don't hit that hard, and they have 0 tricks. This winrate is propped up by noobs who havent learned to include anti tank in their armies yet.
All they would nee to do is just make more data sheets for the chapter specific codexes instead of being lazy and have them all use normal space marine codex. They used to do it by the way. It just seems like such a poor excuse for space marines being so bad.
Possibly unpopular opinion: I think the Space Marine codex is way too big and would benefit from having some (probably several) units moved to legends or squatted entirely. There’s so much overlap in role, function, or ability where one choice of unit is just clearly better. This is especially true when you add in the SM supplement codexes.
how would squatting/moving units to legends exactly help space marines have a larger choice pool of units as opposed to simply reworking the existing datasheets…
@ there would be fewer things to try to balance. We’ve seen units that are not overpowered by themselves get nerfed because they are part of combos across multiple other models, detachments, and supplement codexes. Because there are so many combos that can be created, it’s a nightmare to balance and creates a situation where there is clearly a best choice to take until it gets nerfed, rather than having fewer but viable options. I understand that’s a very generalized thought and maybe not as simple as I’m making it to sound. But even just in recent history and covered in previous Hyperspace Hobbies videos, the Aggressors + Biologis + Fire Discipline combo, and the… Stormraven gunship(?) + Dark Angel detachment combo was so powerful that nerfs were applied to places that weren’t the actual problem and made the units worse for everything that wasn’t a part of that combo. Long story short, more options doesn’t always result in more options.
@@TheEmperorsLeftBabytoe i think i understand what youre saying, but you have the wrong approach to it because its not taking into account the casual side of the game or the painting hobby for that matter. what if instead of removing the models, space marines simply got the imperial agents treatement ; units taken by imperial agents might be cheaper/more expensive then if they were taken by other armies. So if an S tier unit rose in one of the many many space marine codexes, instead of nerfing it across the board, it would only be adjusted for that one problematic codex instead, creating a healthier balance of variety and a less anxious fanbase who doesnt want to see their favourite B tier unit get nerfed into the ground because it was being exploited in another codex without cutting support for a bunch of datasheets for the sake of ‘balance’
@ Like I said, it’s probably an unpopular opinion. And I think your idea is as good as mine and there’s no perfect solution. I think your approach there may lead to a whack-a-mole situation with every new supplement codex and/or new model (lol new SM Lt) that comes out with even more points changes and balancing for the general codex points costs and your proposed Imperial Agents style points costs? I’m not sure I fully understand your idea there in how it would ease the points adjustment and nerfing issues with the sheer volume of combinations that create the clear meta choices leagues above other choices. And everything that I’m saying is coming from someone who’s favorite SM unit are Reivers. I love the models and the deepstrike, shoot, move ability that an attached Phobos Lt allows. But they just don’t do anything better than alternatives like jump pack Intercessors or Scouts. Part of that problem is that they can’t make a combat knife better than a chainsword. And they can’t make a chainsword better than a power weapon. So I do understand and empathize with your feelings from the casual side of things and having favorite units that could be at risk of being removed. It would suck. But my unpopular opinion is purely from a gameplay balance perspective. Though I do disagree with your argument about the painting side of the hobby, there’s an infinite variety of miniatures that people can paint.
@@TheEmperorsLeftBabytoesimple the idea to share point costs across all marines was a stupid one, and made so GW could sell two codex to a marine player. We could avoid stuff like a sudden increase in points of venguard veterans for ALL marines, because in the index they were a strong option for BA because of jump pack sang priest. To make it more fun the nerf came after GW removed the jp sang priest from the BA codex.
I wonder a question. I am totally in accord that this is the best times ever to play warhammer 40k. You were saying when Imperial Knight and/or T'au is the best faction the game is unbalance. But do you think this would be true to say when Space Marine are the lowest is a sign the game is healthy ?
40kstats.goonhammer.com/#GbF
they update stats from GT's all the time so there will be slight differences
I liked, I subscribed, I praised the Omnissiah, I burned incense and chanted the litany of the algorithm. Thanks for the entertainment gentlemen.
Your contribution has been recognized, Imperial rations sanctioned.
Me too brother
Codex compliant Space Marines should get the OG Oath of Moment back
Dude. I couldn’t agree more. Or reroll ones on the wound if the OG is too powerful.
💯
I can lose oath, l just want my bikes, biker characters and land speeders back.
Admech player since 9th. Been playing throughout 10th and there's a number of problems that other factions don't have to deal with.
1. Our detachments just suck. Skitarii Hunter Cohort is practically the only viable detachment/playstyle because spamming 4+/5++ [STEALTH] bodies is good. However it leads to movement blocking lists that are expensive $-wise and extremely annoying to transport to events. Doesn't feel good.
Other detachments, we either jump through too many hoops to get meh buffs (Explorator), the detachment only really helps very specific expensive unit(s) (Cybernetica Cohort & Data-psalm), or doesn't do anything/actively buffs opponents with certain armies/detachments (Rad-zone into Sisters, Dark Angels, etc.)
2. Internal balance is non-existent. Kataphron Breachers are both way too expensive and way too offensively strong stat-wise to balance properly. I rarely take them nowadays because it's 320pts for 6 3+/6++ T7 bodies (and you want to include a 60+ point character on their unit with enhancements). Into lists with Redemptor Dreadnought equivalents Breachers evaporate instantly. Into lists where there's a lot of vehicles, they just auto-win the game if you know what you're doing. There's more to say about their offensive capabilities and other datasheets, but generally everything needs a rewrite/rebalance.
3. Complexity is kinda the theme of Admech? We only really see "pre-programming" in Cybernetica with all 6 strats being in your Command Phase. Honestly we are less complex now than in 9th which is a real pain point for me. There's extremely few targeted buffs from Tech Priests, very few rerolls outside of the Skitarii Marshal (which only goes on the low-damage dealing Skitarii Vanguard/Rangers), we went from having a table of one time use Canticles and 4 one time use Doctrinas to 2 re-useable Doctrinas (and you generally build a list around 1 or the other). All you have to really do in Admech atm is keep a bunch of Battleline in range of your other models to give out the extra Doctrina buff or to proc their unit's improved ability.
There's probably more but it comes down to bad internal balance, too many hoops to jump thru, too expensive $-wise (caused partially by bad balance).
Wow very in depth thanks for sharing and expanding our knowledge. Top notch. Its too bad they took some complexity away. I remember they did that for a few factions in 7th edition and it was a huge disappointment.
I also just hate how most weapon profiles are only good for clearing chaff. A majority of the army feels like they use wet noodles and not the esoteric weaponry of the imperium that the AdMech hoard for themselves.
@@reginlief1 I would agree. The closest we get is Breachers with Arc Weapons, and the Onager Dunecrawler with the Eradication Beamer/Neutron Laser. One is a casino cannon which is pretty fun when it hits, the other is just a pretty strong Lascannon.
The Heavy Grav cannons and Torsion cannons are mathematically a big downgrade in 98% of games. But again, these are tied to the Kataphron units.
Most other weapons feel pretty normal, or at most they are gear for better equipped Guardsmen.
Always a pleasure to see a video put out by you gentlemen!
They should bring back old oath of moment for space marines instead of changing points
Hey Steve I read on play on that you are educator. Does that mean you are a public school teacher? If so I would love to know what subject. But I am a teacher and just started a warhammer club at my school and love your content on playon and hyperspace. I have been playing warhammer for about 8 months and played several dozen games and you inspired me to play the imperial fist (I took a successor) but you inspired me to play and now I am branching out into other armies and just wanted to say thanks for everything you do.
It's a bit frustrating that Ultramarines get access arguably the best character rules, the most character choices and a primarch. If you pick a different chapter you are stuck playing the worst subfaction of the worst performing army. Feels bad.
Looking forward to see how all these new detachments shake things up!
No kidding! only a few have dropped so far!
Happy New Year to my two favorite RUclipsrs. All the best in 2025! PS, would love a video breaking down Steve's Dark Angels list he used against Michael 💪
Guard player here! Liked, subscribed and +1 comment for the algorithm!
9:30 as a knights player who gets very little content i would love to hear an eps on why you think this if possible!
You guy's are quite entertaining
Thank yall!!
As codex marine player. I’m really tired of getting nerfed for something a dark angel did. Because it always hits my army harder then it does them.
Like what?
Show me my Guard at the top spot!
Hey you get a codex REAL soon!
@@hyperspacehobbies Thats true and I'll bet our Grotmas detachment will be a Scions one which cant complain about.
That was an interesting video. I hope they will make codex marines a bit better this December, they had promised...
I'm an Imperial Fists player who started at the beginning of 10th. I knew what I was getting into, basically choosing the worst army but the one I liked the best. It is equally disheartening and reassuring to see that the Codex Compliant SM are just statistically the worst. I don't play in tournaments, just kitchen table games, and I am 2-10 lifetime with Anvil Siege Force. 2 of those losses were attributed to the best player at my LGS telling me that the Avatar of Khaine moved 12" and had Precision. Nevertheless, I learned to trust but verify and that I wasn't turtly enough for the turtle club. Love the content, please make more!
Be happy that you at least have an army to play . Imagine being a white scar player in 10th.
The main issue I have with the winrate discussion is needing to further look at what playstyle or list/s comprises that number. Like for example the Orks. Their winrate is in the lower end of the acceptable end, but that's basically propped up by War Horde, and maybe Dread Mob plus Bully Boyz in the wings. Doesn't always feel the same way for Da Big Hunt or especially Kult of Speed, I think.
I'm an Ork player and that doesn't surprise me, Orks take a lot of strategy and luck to win. They are so squishy, you have to play them just right or your horse gets shredded. I have had the most success with beast Snaggas because of that one strategem that gives them stealth and boys just lack the punch to hurt anything below medium infantry.
I learned last week that knights can walk through ruins. I basically lost in the deployment step.
But also, i went 3-1 at that tournament, with imperial fists. Anvil siege. But i definitely agree with steve. I have to he super creative and steategize everythomg before my turns even start to have a fair chance of winning
Grotmas necrons look real good or do I not know bugs?
I think space marines struggle a bit because a ton of people build a competitive list with killing the space marine defensive profile in mind. Every list I build, I make sure it can kill space marine bodies because they are the median target I fight against
It is not just that. When non marine players think marines , of the non divergent type, they think ultramarines. But peopke want to play their White Scars, Raven Guard or self created chapters. And marines without ultramarine special characters aren't very fun to play.
do you have a link to this info? I tried looking on Goonhammer but couldn't find anything was just curious it seemed so different to like the metamondays
40kstats.goonhammer.com/#GbF
Hmmm … these rankings are VERY different than the data I see from Auspex Tactics! (Except SM at the bottom and SW in the top 5). I’m curious if that’s just a data source issue or if the rankings are shifting that quickly!
Hoping to see both of you back on Playon when either of you have the chance! Hopefully finals and grading will be done soon and you both can abandon your families during the holidays to get us some battle report content!
Goonhammer uses stats from tournaments all over the world and compile information very often. GW does the same thing but I feel they lag behind. Goon hammer updates all the time.
I believe Auspex gets his data from Stat Check and that website only does big tournaments if I remember right.
Still waiting to play my first game after recently coming back to the hobby after a 20y break. Can't wait to get roling again :)
Also, new Ironstorm Smurf deathball idea. Big Bob, Techmarine, 2 redemptors and a brutalis. Use Bob to double up ancient fury.
oooohhhh...
I really dont see codex SM getting off of the bottom as long as they keep the chapters in that codex seperated. Its either gonna be Ultramarines get really good enough or even outright broken to carry the faction up in win% or they stay on the bottom as everyone whos trying to make Salamanders and Imperial fist work at all competitively continue to do poorly. That notwithstanding it also means things like the release of Titus's rules today have no bearing on my army. Like cool Ultramarines get another guy to play with. Can i get my chapter master finally?
I cant really think of anything else that wont require either nerfing the divergent chapters or making incredibly difficult to balance seperated points cost for units between the codex and divergent chapters like with Imperial Agents.
This. They sell us on the fluff but make it feel like it's Ultramarines or nothing with how they handle the rules. I'm sick of paying for the interactions they get to utilize while I'm just trying to get by.
Not to mention they get to have units like Calgar and Ventris while I'm here wondering if Tor Garadon formerly having Lethal Hits was really that bad while also eating +15 points on the Biologis and +5 on eradicators and playing Anvil Siege Force.
Yeah, give each chapter a spicy special unit and at least 3 characters.
Thanks
I thought Black Templars were even lower still than compliant chapters - I saw a stat somewhere but for the life of me I can't find it but they were also sub 45%
I don't think White Scars or Raven Guard have a win rate above 40%.
Hey nice shirt
Im starting to think your just showing up for the shirts...😊
I only show up for the shirts if you both start showing up shirtless 😂😂😂
@jprovorse4159 Hey, Christmas is coming. Maybe that's what Santa got you...
Comment
And here we see that winrates really dont paint an accurate picture. Knights are NOT the best army in the game. In fact, they're in the competition for worst army in the game. They're squishy, they don't hit that hard, and they have 0 tricks. This winrate is propped up by noobs who havent learned to include anti tank in their armies yet.
All they would nee to do is just make more data sheets for the chapter specific codexes instead of being lazy and have them all use normal space marine codex. They used to do it by the way. It just seems like such a poor excuse for space marines being so bad.
Possibly unpopular opinion: I think the Space Marine codex is way too big and would benefit from having some (probably several) units moved to legends or squatted entirely. There’s so much overlap in role, function, or ability where one choice of unit is just clearly better. This is especially true when you add in the SM supplement codexes.
how would squatting/moving units to legends exactly help space marines have a larger choice pool of units as opposed to simply reworking the existing datasheets…
@ there would be fewer things to try to balance. We’ve seen units that are not overpowered by themselves get nerfed because they are part of combos across multiple other models, detachments, and supplement codexes. Because there are so many combos that can be created, it’s a nightmare to balance and creates a situation where there is clearly a best choice to take until it gets nerfed, rather than having fewer but viable options. I understand that’s a very generalized thought and maybe not as simple as I’m making it to sound. But even just in recent history and covered in previous Hyperspace Hobbies videos, the Aggressors + Biologis + Fire Discipline combo, and the… Stormraven gunship(?) + Dark Angel detachment combo was so powerful that nerfs were applied to places that weren’t the actual problem and made the units worse for everything that wasn’t a part of that combo.
Long story short, more options doesn’t always result in more options.
@@TheEmperorsLeftBabytoe i think i understand what youre saying, but you have the wrong approach to it because its not taking into account the casual side of the game or the painting hobby for that matter. what if instead of removing the models, space marines simply got the imperial agents treatement ; units taken by imperial agents might be cheaper/more expensive then if they were taken by other armies. So if an S tier unit rose in one of the many many space marine codexes, instead of nerfing it across the board, it would only be adjusted for that one problematic codex instead, creating a healthier balance of variety and a less anxious fanbase who doesnt want to see their favourite B tier unit get nerfed into the ground because it was being exploited in another codex without cutting support for a bunch of datasheets for the sake of ‘balance’
@ Like I said, it’s probably an unpopular opinion. And I think your idea is as good as mine and there’s no perfect solution. I think your approach there may lead to a whack-a-mole situation with every new supplement codex and/or new model (lol new SM Lt) that comes out with even more points changes and balancing for the general codex points costs and your proposed Imperial Agents style points costs? I’m not sure I fully understand your idea there in how it would ease the points adjustment and nerfing issues with the sheer volume of combinations that create the clear meta choices leagues above other choices.
And everything that I’m saying is coming from someone who’s favorite SM unit are Reivers. I love the models and the deepstrike, shoot, move ability that an attached Phobos Lt allows. But they just don’t do anything better than alternatives like jump pack Intercessors or Scouts. Part of that problem is that they can’t make a combat knife better than a chainsword. And they can’t make a chainsword better than a power weapon. So I do understand and empathize with your feelings from the casual side of things and having favorite units that could be at risk of being removed. It would suck. But my unpopular opinion is purely from a gameplay balance perspective.
Though I do disagree with your argument about the painting side of the hobby, there’s an infinite variety of miniatures that people can paint.
@@TheEmperorsLeftBabytoesimple the idea to share point costs across all marines was a stupid one, and made so GW could sell two codex to a marine player. We could avoid stuff like a sudden increase in points of venguard veterans for ALL marines, because in the index they were a strong option for BA because of jump pack sang priest. To make it more fun the nerf came after GW removed the jp sang priest from the BA codex.
I wonder a question. I am totally in accord that this is the best times ever to play warhammer 40k. You were saying when Imperial Knight and/or T'au is the best faction the game is unbalance. But do you think this would be true to say when Space Marine are the lowest is a sign the game is healthy ?
First 🎉