I like that your assertion that 1st-Person direct “acting” role playing is not in some mystical way superior to the other forms. I had a party of players who each really engaged in each of these styles, and I remember how the group’s wizard always got annoyed with the Druid, simply because she talked about herself and her polar bear companion very remotely. She didn’t use a voice. She didn’t get into a deep emotional act every time she did something. It was “melody does this.” The wizard player would get so upset and say that I, the DM, needed to sit down with [druid] and ask if she was actually committed to the game. I refused. She was deeply attached to her character, just in a more private and reserved way, which matched her personality. And she was a better player than many others I’ve had.
The best experience I ever had was the whole table was very descriptive 3rd person. No voices and accents but the story we all built together was amazing. so much for first person being better for emergency, when I think back on that campaign, I hardly remember actually being at the table. When I think back on that campaign, despite nobody explicitly acting out their character as if there were an Oscar on the line, I remember it almost as if it was a lived experience. My own brain has long since filled in all the other details and I didn't have to rely on the others at the table for that. It was much like reading a book. Nobody is acting and I'm immersed enough hours fly by without my notice but I think back on the story, I don't remember flipping pages, I just remember the story. So definitely use a lot of detail, Dean Koontz style lol, but forgive me if I don't think Playacting is at all necessary for Role-playing.
My first DM (over 20 years ago) forced us to speak in first person for everything, and if you didn't personally have the same knowledge that your character would have in their world, then neither did your character. He also didn't want us reading the Players' Guide, nor any other books on the game/world, cuz he was convinced we only wanted to min-max our characters. The whole experience was quite demotivating. I think this video has been the first time I’ve felt assured that I could relax and speak/describe in whatever way feels natural for the moment.
Spot on. I find that I rush dialogue when talking in an NPC’s voice and just fall victim to agreeing to ludicrous demands or becoming a pain in the backside. Using third person dialogue and then finishing with that one line to ‘summarise’ helps slow down your thought process and really engage with that NPC’s intent and current goals - helping actually increase the immersion of the game with more believable characters! Golden!
My nerves of not being able to quick as a wipe improv has been a big factor in why i haven't dipped my toe into D&D, I am no Sam Riegel! Your explanation of know thy self, know your strengths hit home for me. I can describe scenarios and feelings so much better than i can write or improv dialog! This has opened up new doors for me.
I recently started DMing about 2 months ago. This video has reaffirmed my storytelling style. I use indirect 3rd person constantly because it makes it easier for me to convey what information the party needs to move forward. Thank you for making this video and I look forward to your future videos.
Great!! So many DMs need to hear that voices don't make you a better storyteller. I know Matt Mercer says it all the time, but for some reason nobody else does!
Zipperon Disney My players describe my campaign as lightning in a bottle and I didn’t understand why. I was nothing like what I understood DMs to be. Sure voiced NPC could make any campaign better if they are deliverers by an actor who understands what he needs to convey to the party. But not everybody is that kind of person. Thanks again for the video and I plan on watching the rest of your videos in an effort to see what I can pick up.
Damn, this is one hell of a video. Good advice for us both as players, GMs, and gets us to reflect a lot about our own styles and other players. Bravo!
I needed that video so much ! I keep knocking myself on the head because I can't speak in character.. what happens is that my NPCs become so bland because I don't want to make them speak. I used to play 3 Rd person indirect but most gm channels tells that first person direct makes all the difference in immersion, but I just can't. Thank you for your perspective and video!
Third person direct/indirect also exist within “third person limited” and “third person omniscient”. (Search these terms if unknown) The PC can only realistically use third person limited(direct or indirect) or first person(direct or indirect). 4 total. But the DM/GM can actually use 6 including sub-categories. Third limited(D/I), Third omniscient(D/I) and Second person(D/I)
Ever thought of writing a book or a blog? You pack so many ideas and bits of information in these videos, it would be so useful to be able to reference while planning out scenes and encounters
Using the DMG chase rules for certain social interactions is actually a cracking shout. Found this a really helpful video in general as I have been struggling with social.stuff lately nicely done 😀
This is a very good, very fundamental and, moreover, very original video, which can be underlined in the actual context where several different DM's have competing channels. Kudos.
I’ve been an actor in plays and musicals my entire life so direct dialogue has always been easy for me. Nevertheless, indirect dialogue is a cool unique idea that I’ve never thought about before, so imma give it a try!
Love your videos. I just watched three of your videos in a row and there hasn't been a minute in which i haven't learned anything or seen an area in which i might improove. Thanks
Fun story. This is an issue more between character acting and book storytelling. D&D blurs the lines between the two. The DM works as a book storyteller, where the characters are working as improv actors. However, they will switch back on occasion as the DM continues to play in 3rd. In a book, the third person is what we normally read, she and he. 3rd person carries most books because switching between characters is easily identifiable. In other words, Chapter 1 can be Hary ran. Chapter 2 can be Sally sat. Each chapter is easily identifiable to the audience on the character you are reading about. Versus Chapter 1 I ran. Chapter 2 I sat. -- sometimes you need to get into two paragraphs of the book to understand whom the narrator is talking about when written in the first person. The 3rd person for storytelling is the best version for me because everybody knows who is doing what without the DM looking up at you. Emotionally, it distances the person from the character. When you distance yourself you realize it's a story, not your personal issue with the DM. I do 3rd person because I find that characters tend to take the game less personal and it speeds the game along a bit in combat and in town. In the game, I want everybody to understand that the game is a fun fantasy game, nothing else, nothing more. -- I'm a bit bias.
Necro-ing here, but this is a really fascinating video. Me personally? I play mostly online these days and without cameras. To me body language is important so I need to describe that, and I do so in third person. But I find it really fun to do voices while DMing even if I flub lines (helps that I run a less serious game). So I end up usually delivering lines directly then quickly stepping back to describe their intent and body language indirectly. I might be wasting some value able time here actually, but I like the feel it gives (at least on my side i have fun haha) to breathe a presence into the character with ego then refine and clarify the character with narration.
This is one of the best primers on ROLE playing. I have watched it several times (whenever it comes up in my queue). Alot more could be said about this. A book could be written on this subject
Great breakdown of the different styles! Developing a million NPC voices bogs me down all the time so I started using a mixture of direct and indirect 3rd person without giving it much thought. Practiced voices and dialog for big NPCs and descriptive conversation for gaurd 2 and barkeep 3.
Thank you for putting this together in a clear and informative manner. I disagree that while DMing that I use the 3rd person for RP. I use the 3rd for narration, as you mentioned, but for RP I almost exclusively use the 1st or 2nd person. "I reckon I ought to keep these drinks coming." "You look like a fellow who needs a few drinks." Of course followed by the aforementioned 'the barkeep looks up at you from behind a stack of grimy tankards'.
I'm a primarily 1st person player, but my PC is never an extension of my ego. I tend to try to create a PC that is very, very different than myself, with a very different psychology...but I tend to operate from a space of empathy. I want to empathize with this character who is so different than me. So I tend to use 1st Person.
Happy to have found the channel! Great video! I just want to express my disagreement at 6:53. I, for example, just think I can relate more to my character if I speak in first person, and that helps me figure out what they would do. Even more so if they're not similar to me.
I tend to always use 3rd person or indirect dialogue as a player, mainly because I am TERRIBLE at thinking on the spot. The only time I tend to do direct dialogue is if I have something pre-planned and written out, which usually is never going to happen in a D&D session.
There is a lot of psychology in D&D. When one takes the time to break it down and allow themselves to be intuitive to the game in session you will pick up on these nuances in character development and creation. In many of the game sessions I participated in I found that many players speak in first person while in character and action. To me this shows a more personalized and empathetic aspect to the PC they play. It becomes a more higher expression of their moral, or amoral self. They create a cord or connection to their entity taking to heart its failures, or victories. I myself tend to play in third person because I find it more liberating. It frees me up to allow myself to understand the view points of another's perspective on the world they live in, which is not like my own. I see through their eyes and not mine. It is not to say I feel less empathy for them. It is that I learn to know them in their intimate moments and world view perspective. If I personalize the character I will lose the chance of truly understanding them as individual entities. It will cause me take to heart their failures as if it were my own, and in doing so the game becomes less enjoyable. There have been a few times where I witness players becoming very upset when a character they play dies, or makes a fatal mistake during session because they see the PC as themselves. To me it is best to disassociate yourself from the character you create, because you will lose the value of learned perspective. The joy of D&D is its diversity of characters and creatures that are entrenched in their own history and beliefs. You can step into the shoes of an Elvish Rogue, a Gnomish bard, a Goblin druid, or female Barbarian warrior. There are myriad characters you have the opportunity to help give life too. But in the end they are individuals whose origins are different from our own. And because of that they teach us to become something that we are not in our own lives. To understand the humanity of others through their trails and tribulation of hero ascension. We come to recognize our own aspirations to striving toward our better selves. That is the beauty of this game.
This is a really well thought out comment. Thanks for sharing! I agree that seeing things from different eyes and stepping into others shoes can be good for you too :)
I appreciate you bringing this up, and broadly speaking, you're right. But there are nuances and outliers that make this question even deeper than you suggest. For example: even Players who RP deeply might switch to third-person when describing something particularly cinematic, something that uses a trope from movies or TV. This is because some of us (and some games, or even some *moments* in game play) speak more through "genre simulation" than "ontological simulation." Other variables include "Bleed-in" and its freaky cousin "Bleed-out," both of which different people have different propensities for (or defenses against). It would be interesting to take this conversation to another level, is what I'm sayin'. :-) Rock on.
Great video! It really makes me feel better about not always speaking in a character's voice as a dm. I do think you can make "bad dialogue" into something fun though. At a more relaxed and casual table leaning into bad and silly dialogue can create some very humorous moments.
I find it's a very interesting topic, because I tend to "lose" dialog to my players, just because I'm not such good in acting as sometimes they can be. Or because of lack of proper words. But with indirect speech, descriptions you can really create proper attitude. Also, and this can be really useful, you can prepare such dialogues before the game. Just because you don't need to respond to some concrete words, but rather give the idea of what a conversation was about. That means, if you're better writer than an actor, this could really enrich gaming experience for everybody
11k views and 600 likes? Come on people... Dude your content is awesome and so different from the most mainstream sources, you helped me answer so many questions about DMing, thanks! Great channel, keep it up! Greetings From Argentina
Great vid on something very near and dear to me! I’ve been frustrated by the rhetoric in the community that acting and doing character voices is the only “real” RP for years. I really like the use of the chase rules as well.
Zipperon Disney I agree! Streaming has definitely changed expectations, especially Critical Role (which is great!). I think acting is great and my best friend who plays in my games and runs my favorite games to play in is a great actor with theater background and his voices and mannerisms bring a lot to the game! But it’s not the be all end all and I personally felt very inadequate in comparison for a long time and that was always reinforced by the community that would say things like “we are REAL role players, we play for 4 hours and never even touch the dice” and just the gate keeping implications that if you don’t want to do first person direct role play with character voices and everything then you are at best a neophyte basic player and maybe someday you’ll grow up and be a real role player and that just never sat well with me. I’m ecstatic that people have a great time with their fantastic acting skills and if they barely touch the dice and that’s fun for them, that’s awesome! But please don’t invalidate me and people like me because our fun looks different from yours. Anyways, I’m off my rant box and I did really like the video, it definitely is good for people to learn about all their options!
Interesting insights! Sometimes I'm pretty good at dming dialog, other times not so much. When I was playing last, I remember I wanted to basically play Link, and use this kind of method so that he would never speak. The campaign never took off, unfortunately...
I think some times players mode-switch to 3rd person when they otherwise would generally default to 1st person, because in that particular instant they don't want to switch the focus of the entire table to themselves. (I later edited my comment for grammar.)
Great vid btw. The bit about speaking naturally has lots of subtexts that got me thinking about some of my games. I speak with lots of subtexts and many players feel I'm hiding something. This is true because PEOPLE DONT REVEAL EVERY MOTIVE in real life. But there is an expectation in RPGs unfortunately. I think it's a wrong expectation as well. Sure when running a D&D adventure game you need to make people a little more one dimensional to move things along because players aren't interested in delving into character motivations or seeking the truth behind subtext. However, in my deeper games where it is all PC/character-driven than normal speech is the default and is a MAJOR hurdler for many players that aren't used to speaking like a normal human in an RPG. Thanks for pointing that out and revealing why it's difficult for many players to "act like a normal person" in RPGs.
Glad you liked it! And thanks for the thoughtful comment - you're right you need to remember that moving the game along is also an important function of talking w NPCs!
@@ZipperonDisney I agree but only with plot driven games. They are quest givers, info centers, obstacles, and ego strokers. In player driven sandbox where there is no plot and the world moves with or without them, NPCs have deeper motivations, as deep as any PC or human on Earth. Subtext comes with that. And speaking only in character PCs need to discern the subtext and delve deeper. In the past I would use words such as "act like a normal person" but what I really meant was "NPCs will talk with subtext." Great vid!
I switch between direct and indirect often depending, basically, on how much time I have to think about my actions. When I have time, I use indirect, but in the moment, especially during roleplay, I go into 1st person.
@@ZipperonDisney I have a bit of disappointing experiences with dms who doesn't have the sensitivity to embrace when a player shift to 3r person, this helps me understand the process that go's behind. Thanks!
While I agree with all that you said, ego is not the only reason a player might use the first person in their role-playing, but it could come from humility as well. Think of it out of game; when an unfavorable situation happens, we can often alleviate blame by speaking in the third person, but there is no way to avoid ownership of your part when you address someone in the first. "We went out and someone put my girlfriend in a compromising position, forcing me to man up" is a lot more passive than "I beat him up for groping my girl" So in that intense moment when Grog the Impailer kills the princesses cat, your player might use the first person indirect to convey that, despite hating the action, they are owning it.
Half my players for my game fall victim to the "character is an extension of their ego" trap and get upset at me when their characters mess up or get hurt
I might bounce around these depending on the situation and what is true to the character, but I never do character voices or accents. I'm not comfortable with it and often find it *cheesy* as Hell.
It's mad cringe. I find 3rd person way better. I like narrating my character more than living them because I can give a lot more nuance I couldn't compete with in first person unless I was walking around and really working for that Emmy.
I think indirect is going to be my new go to. I've thought about using it before but I enjoy speaking in character so much that I'm afraid when I do use indirect role-playing that my players will think the NPC is unimportant. I think I may just try indirect role-playing majority of NPCs, but do direct role-playing to make certain NPCs special or make what they do say directly to be something special. I'm also going to try to use indirect as a player, since I think I may have some annoying that guy tendencies and the amount of direct role-playing I do might be one of them. Lol
I usually use 1st person perspective but in very tense or uncomfortable situation I do shift to 3rd person. Sometimes it is a conscious decision (f.ex. I'm not comfortable with flirting with my DM for example, so I will intentionally *not*) sometimes it isn't. And sometimes - player or dm doesn't matter - I'm lazy and don't want to play out the whole scene so I just go "and then they tell you about this and that. done"
Great video. I totally default to the third person all the time like you! When you play instead of DM do your habits change at all? Mine dont. So I DM a lot, play a lot of GMless games, and just play a crap ton of games in general (and always looking for more!). I never thought of the empathy and ego component before (so thanks for that) but I'd say I'm definitely guilty of just treating any character as distanced from my own ego. Not in an attempt to really get in another headspace or empathize, but more like I'm permanently in director/cinematography mode as player or DM. I may throw in 1st person indirect, but it's generally 3rd person.
I have to try and hold myself back when I play. As a DM, you get so used to driving the story that it takes a conscious effort to lean back and watch. As far as RP, I'll do whatever the majority of the table is doing - including doing a voice the whole session :)
I don’t want to sound weird, but you have a really nice voice. Your videos are easy to follow with how you speak and explain things and your general tone. Great vid, thanks for helping my DM skills.🤛
I appreciate the commentary on this subject. I prefer the 3rd person style and using direct dialog only sparingly. In watching some of the various play sessions that can be found on RUclips, I find, to my dismay, most younger players tend toward the 1st person and direct dialog. I know this is how some people enjoy the game, but i personally find it irritating especially when it begins to resemble LARPing. If you want to play that sort of game, go with "How to Host a Murder" or other mystery party games. Maybe i'm just too much of a curmudgeon.
I’ve been meaning to ask, where did you read about how people relate to their character through the use of 1st and 2nd person? I would like to site that idea.
6:49 *The more characters you can identify with in first person the better roleplayer/actor you are. IMO it's one of primary DM skills to be able to impersonate NPCs.*
I've seen people get angry when i mention that you can play on just 3rd person, like they say "that is wrong, or that you need to improve or you can have more fun if try acting on 1st person" And i will say: they are wrong, because i like playong sometimes on.1st and others on 3rd and i see no difference, and i dm for neurodivergent people and some of them literally cant play on 'direct 1st person', and even so, they get angry if you ask them to do it and they have told me bad experiences with that for people who just keep trying to push them and force them to play on 1st person sayong they are 'playing wrong' Also, playing on 3rd person helps people with not so high charisma to play High charisma characters, since they maybe dont knoe how to act like a 18-20 charisma character, but thats ok, because is the character's charisma, not theirs
I realize that this is a year old and I missed out on the conversation (but so what, I just stumbled upon this now.). That was a great intro, the "show, don't tell style narration" really sucked me in... by the time you were done I had forgotten that I was watching a video about D&D and was instead imagining the early days of Rome. 😃 - *Yes!* 😆 I love seeing this degree of thought put into Roleplaying!!! - I've tried having this level of contemplative and introspective discussion with Larpers & Roleplayers... they just don't get it (many of them clearly identify with their Characters, but always claim that they don't - like; choosing to play as a villainous character who acts like a dick towards other players, but always excusing it away by proclaiming "that's just how my character is."). - Here's one for you to think about: You say DMs can only speak using one of two perspectives; (what you're calling Direct and Indirect; so 1st person Narration as an NPC 'acting' and true "3rd person Narration" 'descriptive.' But what about the Meta of "who" you are talking to?). *Example* *3rd person Indirect; as narration* DM Narrating: As you approach the graveyard you see the Dwarf you were told to meet with, the light from his torch illuminates the darkness. You take notice of the ring of keys he is firmly gripping at his side. *3rd person Direct; as 1st person acting* GM acting as NPC: 'With one hand on your side and motioning with the other; you say;' "Come Adventures, this way to the Crypt." *3rd person Indirect; as narration* GM Narrating: He beckons you over with the flick of his wrist, His torch whooshing back and forth. - Either way It's Narrative Storytelling for an "audience" who is meant to take part in the collaborative process of discovering/ crafting the story "together." But who is your audience? (Are you addressing the Players, or their Characters? - or Both at the same time?). Who is the "You" so commonly referred to by DMs? DMs typically use "You" interchangeably to refer to both a Player and their Character (assuming them one and the same). Isn’t this an omissions of the reality that no matter what Players may try and conceptualize; they are innately their Character (the Character is always tied to some aspect of the Player's psyche.). - "True" DM Narration is vary rare; because it would take Character "Agency" away from their creator "the Player" (otherwise it would be a "choose the Characters' adventure" - as apposed to the "choose your own adventure" format that all RPGs tend to be. It's not just Collaborative Storytelling, it's a step up from "Immersive" Collaborative Storytelling. It's "your story/ fantasy" even if you can't/ won't admit that to yourself. "It's escapeism" and there's nothing bad/ wrong with that; accept and embrace it.). *Example of "Indirect" 3rd person DM "Narration" directed solely at the Players* *3rd person Indirect; as narration* DM Narration: The Party of Adventurers enters the dimly lit graveyard. They see a vague figure holding a torch, that must be the Dwarf they were instructed to meet with. DM prompts the Players by asking them: "So, what do your Characters do?" (Referring to Characters and Players separately. It's just not as enjoyable: you might as well just go read a book. It completely breaks the concept of "acting" 'roleplaying' for the Player's sake/ for their sense of "suspended disbelief."). Why would a GM "act out" the NPC "with" the Players if the Players are not themselves the Characters. The whole point of 'roleplaying' is to interact with eachother! Even if you're bad at acting or feel too self conscious to do so, the least you can do is "inhabit" the consciousness of your Character "take ownership" even if you are rationalizing the experience as "exploring other was of being" - as in "playing" at being/ doing things you wouldn't normally do. "1st and 3rd person" roleplaying is only one small step removed from one another (Players who identify with/ as their Character conceptualize their Character as some degree of an extension of themselves - Players who claim to not identify with/ as their Character conceptualize their Character as some form of "puppet" they themselves still possess all the Agency; if that Character has any restrictions, it's because their creator deemed it so. If they have any strengths; it's because their creator decided it should be... etc. etc.). - This video made me hopeful with anticipation for more great content: hopefully worth my subscription.
I like your point about *who* the DM is narrating for. There is a lot to unpack there, and you shared some good stuff. I hope other folks scroll down to read your comment
@@ZipperonDisney Thanks. - So far I'm enjoying your content, very few in the "gaming community" put in as much thought as you have "or at the least; very few take the time to share their thoughts and musings." 🙂🤝 - "Storytelling" and thus 'writing' are much older mediums of expression then "Roleplaying games" so we have a lot more "philosophic/ academic contemplations" to interact with in the form of Narratology then we do for RPGs... even Ludology in general hasn't received the same degree of "love"/ attention. I think it's becoming more prominent in people's thoughts though - especially with a greater/ increasing awareness of the profits generated by the gaming industry.
Playing in 1st person properly requires the player identify with and become the character. It does not mean that the character is like the player. The Greeks called this process "mimesis" - imitation. It is the core of acting. Mads Mikkelsen is not a sociopathic serial killer, but he became one in Hannibal; at least he appeared to. For me, mimesis is the aspiration in role-playing, third-person description or indirect speech just distract from this and are not to be encouraged.
Is it awkward to reply to a PC in third person that is talking to you in first person? I see what you mean about not wanting to discourage people from their preferred style but I feel that I can be more spontaneous in third person than first person dialogue.
I don't find it awkward. In practice, I usually switch between the two. If I feel like I have a good line, I'll reply in 1st person, but if I'm just trying to make my point known, it's almost always 3rd person.
I think that indirect or direct roleplay are indifferently superior for players to use. Nobody is really doing direct roleplay when they take actions, they describe them rather than act them out in just about every case. Describing their speech is just a natural extension of that. However, I think that third-person roleplay distances the player from characterization and removes immersion from the table.
The best experience I ever had was the whole table was very descriptive 3rd person. No voices and accents but the story we all built together was amazing. so much for first person being better for emergency, when I think back on that campaign, I hardly remember actually being at the table. When I think back on that campaign, despite nobody explicitly acting out their character as if there were an Oscar on the line, I remember it almost as if it was a lived experience. My own brain has long since filled in all the other details and I didn't have to rely on the others at the table for that. It was much like reading a book. Nobody is acting and I'm immersed enough hours fly by without my notice but I think back on the story, I don't remember flipping pages, I just remember the story.
Hey, man, I’ve loved everyone of your videos so far, but I disagree pretty strongly with this one. Before I go any further let me say that it’s perfectly cool to disagree about playing and DMing styles - one of the things that’s great about this game is how it accommodates so many different styles. I’m one of those DMs/players who lives in 1st and 3rd person direct. I do the dialogue for all my PCs and NPCs. For me it’s one of the best parts of the game. My main reason for loving direct dialogue is that every single one of the best moments in my games, as DM or player, has resulted from direct dialogue/RP. For perfect examples just watch any episode of The Chain. Remember episode 1? “I don’t take orders from dead men.” Killer line! Or how about in that later episode when Tom said, “I dreamed I was a god.” Or what about that cool thing that Copper said… no, wait, there aren’t any. He never speaks in first person. There was a legendary moment from one of my old games where, after a plan goes terribly wrong, the player who had come up with the plan turned to another player and declared, in their character’s voice, “I told you this was a bad idea!” Everyone broke out in peals of laughter. It’s been years since that session and we still talk about it. To say that a player only uses first person direct when they’re playing a version of themselves is pretty much proven wrong by every DM who uses direct language when playing an evil NPC, not to mention by every actor who’s ever lived. Many times I’ve DM’d conversations where NPCs argued with each other and I’ve spoken both sides, the good guy and the bad guy. Now, as a player, whenever I switch to 3rd person it’s never anything to do with my character’s motivation, it’s always because I feel it provides a clearer, or more objective explanation - or sometimes just because it feels more cinematic and descriptive: Sometimes I’ll say this: DM: Verus, what are you going to do? Me: I think I’ll search through the books on this book shelf. Or sometimes I’ll say it like this: Player: I’ll look over to see what Verus is doing? Me: Verus is pulling each book off the shelf, rifling through the pages, and then tossing the book on the floor. Player: “Verus, what are you looking for?” Me: “Nothing.” (And sometimes using third person language just works better when you’re playing voice-only online games and there could be some confusion over who is speaking.) I *always* encourage my players to use 1st or 3rd person direct. Especially when they’re debating in character about something. That’s when the game really comes alive! When it comes down to it, I use it and I encourage my players to use it, because I just have more *fun* when first person is the practice. But I also want to say that a DM should *always* play to their strengths - I absolutely agree with you there. Oh, and I loved the history lessons. Many is the time I’ve used a third person narration to cover a lot of ground, or a span of time, or a “cinematic” story moment. But as soon as a PC interacts with an NPC, I’ll switch to direct language. Anyway, great video - good food for thought. I upvoted!
WOW! This is super thoughtful. And I totally agree that disagreement != disrespect. Usually, a disagreement can just mean you've found a different perspective on something. Your points about actors and your reason (cinematic) for switching from 1st to 3rd are really good. And both things I hadn't considered. I'm glad that this has generated some discussion, because there really isn't much about this topic. And in the absence of other's knowledge/opinions, I just have to go on my own.
@@ZipperonDisney I know that a lot of players who don't like using first person direct avoid it because they're afraid that they will say the wrong thing and be laughed at. Not everyone feels that way, certainly, but I think many do. I have a policy when I run a game that I always play off a player's RP *intention*. Whenever a player uses the wrong word, mispronounces something, or stumbles through a speech when they're RPing, we always know what they were intending to say -- so I just go with that. Sometimes other players do laugh, but I don't pay any attention to the laughter and just carry on RPing as if the player had spoken perfectly. If a laughing player makes mention of the flub, I usually just respond, "I know what they meant," and go on RPing. Everyone usually catches on pretty quick and after that the laughter becomes much more good-natured, because everyone, at one point or another, is going to be the one making funny flub. So, yeah, if you speak as your character you're gonna make a funny flub at some point -- it's just unavoidable. But the benefits far outweigh the risks. To me -- and this is just my opinion -- playing an RPG and being afraid of making a flub is like taking up boxing and being afraid of getting hit. It's just part of the game.
I like that your assertion that 1st-Person direct “acting” role playing is not in some mystical way superior to the other forms. I had a party of players who each really engaged in each of these styles, and I remember how the group’s wizard always got annoyed with the Druid, simply because she talked about herself and her polar bear companion very remotely. She didn’t use a voice. She didn’t get into a deep emotional act every time she did something. It was “melody does this.” The wizard player would get so upset and say that I, the DM, needed to sit down with [druid] and ask if she was actually committed to the game. I refused. She was deeply attached to her character, just in a more private and reserved way, which matched her personality. And she was a better player than many others I’ve had.
Exactly! Investment isn't acting or voices. Investment is the emotional bond formed with a character, and how that gets expressed and developed!
The best experience I ever had was the whole table was very descriptive 3rd person. No voices and accents but the story we all built together was amazing.
so much for first person being better for emergency, when I think back on that campaign, I hardly remember actually being at the table. When I think back on that campaign, despite nobody explicitly acting out their character as if there were an Oscar on the line, I remember it almost as if it was a lived experience.
My own brain has long since filled in all the other details and I didn't have to rely on the others at the table for that. It was much like reading a book. Nobody is acting and I'm immersed enough hours fly by without my notice but I think back on the story, I don't remember flipping pages, I just remember the story.
So definitely use a lot of detail, Dean Koontz style lol, but forgive me if I don't think Playacting is at all necessary for Role-playing.
Thanks for the awesome comment! I read the whole thing, and it sounds like a great memory of a great game!
This channel is so perceptive, keep at it.
Thanks mate! I'll make these as long as folks keep watching :)
My first DM (over 20 years ago) forced us to speak in first person for everything, and if you didn't personally have the same knowledge that your character would have in their world, then neither did your character. He also didn't want us reading the Players' Guide, nor any other books on the game/world, cuz he was convinced we only wanted to min-max our characters. The whole experience was quite demotivating. I think this video has been the first time I’ve felt assured that I could relax and speak/describe in whatever way feels natural for the moment.
Spot on.
I find that I rush dialogue when talking in an NPC’s voice and just fall victim to agreeing to ludicrous demands or becoming a pain in the backside.
Using third person dialogue and then finishing with that one line to ‘summarise’ helps slow down your thought process and really engage with that NPC’s intent and current goals - helping actually increase the immersion of the game with more believable characters!
Golden!
Glad you appreciate it! 🙏
As a newer DM that struggles with first person dialog and voices this video has helped me immensely.
Glad I could help you out! My vid 'Role play Tips are Wrong' might be useful too :)
My nerves of not being able to quick as a wipe improv has been a big factor in why i haven't dipped my toe into D&D, I am no Sam Riegel! Your explanation of know thy self, know your strengths hit home for me. I can describe scenarios and feelings so much better than i can write or improv dialog! This has opened up new doors for me.
Fantastic!! Jump in and let me know how it goes!!!
The chase rules you talked about are incredible! Really creative and well-considered. I'll definitely try it out in my campaign.
I put a link in the description of a write up of them. Please let me know how it goes for you!
You totally missed the clip of Vader "Pray I don't alter it any further" moment, during the Roman story.
Great video, thanks for sharing
Ha! That's what we said in the Marines when Uncle Sam changed things *after we enlisted
This is one of, if not, the most important lesson to learn as a DM.
"Bad writing lacks subtext" that is extremely succinct and yet such accurate writing advice. Also, thank you so much for this video in general!
Glad it was helpful!
I recently started DMing about 2 months ago. This video has reaffirmed my storytelling style. I use indirect 3rd person constantly because it makes it easier for me to convey what information the party needs to move forward. Thank you for making this video and I look forward to your future videos.
Great!! So many DMs need to hear that voices don't make you a better storyteller. I know Matt Mercer says it all the time, but for some reason nobody else does!
Zipperon Disney My players describe my campaign as lightning in a bottle and I didn’t understand why. I was nothing like what I understood DMs to be. Sure voiced NPC could make any campaign better if they are deliverers by an actor who understands what he needs to convey to the party. But not everybody is that kind of person. Thanks again for the video and I plan on watching the rest of your videos in an effort to see what I can pick up.
Severely underrated channel. You have much better advice than the average "how to improve as a DM/player" channels.
Thank you very much! I try really hard to only put out content atypical of what you find on DnD youtube
Damn, this is one hell of a video. Good advice for us both as players, GMs, and gets us to reflect a lot about our own styles and other players. Bravo!
Glad you liked it - it's one of my favorites! You might also like the 3 Axes vid too :)
You've just convinced me that indirect dialogue could be a real boon in my own GM toolbox. I'll make a real effort at it.
I needed that video so much ! I keep knocking myself on the head because I can't speak in character.. what happens is that my NPCs become so bland because I don't want to make them speak. I used to play 3 Rd person indirect but most gm channels tells that first person direct makes all the difference in immersion, but I just can't. Thank you for your perspective and video!
Yup! I try really hard to make cogent arguments *different than what other DnD Talking Heads say :)
Third person direct/indirect also exist within “third person limited” and “third person omniscient”. (Search these terms if unknown)
The PC can only realistically use third person limited(direct or indirect) or first person(direct or indirect). 4 total.
But the DM/GM can actually use 6 including sub-categories. Third limited(D/I), Third omniscient(D/I) and Second person(D/I)
I'm not gonna fault you at all for adding to the semantics!!
I love digging through your older videos. Lot of great content:)
Awesome, thank you! Glad you're digging them :)
Ever thought of writing a book or a blog? You pack so many ideas and bits of information in these videos, it would be so useful to be able to reference while planning out scenes and encounters
Most of the video scripts are on my $1 patreon. I have a book (linked in description), but it's game options not tips
Using the DMG chase rules for certain social interactions is actually a cracking shout. Found this a really helpful video in general as I have been struggling with social.stuff lately nicely done 😀
This is a very good, very fundamental and, moreover, very original video, which can be underlined in the actual context where several different DM's have competing channels. Kudos.
I’ve been an actor in plays and musicals my entire life so direct dialogue has always been easy for me. Nevertheless, indirect dialogue is a cool unique idea that I’ve never thought about before, so imma give it a try!
It lets you be the narrator while you're also a player!
Laughed out loud at the blue paw-print reference. Really dig your role playing philosophy.
This is a pretty interesting perspective that is not often brought up.
Thanks!! As far as I know, this vid is probably the definitive source on the subject ;)
Love your videos. I just watched three of your videos in a row and there hasn't been a minute in which i haven't learned anything or seen an area in which i might improove. Thanks
Glad you like them! I do it for folks like you :)
Fun story. This is an issue more between character acting and book storytelling. D&D blurs the lines between the two. The DM works as a book storyteller, where the characters are working as improv actors. However, they will switch back on occasion as the DM continues to play in 3rd. In a book, the third person is what we normally read, she and he. 3rd person carries most books because switching between characters is easily identifiable. In other words, Chapter 1 can be Hary ran. Chapter 2 can be Sally sat. Each chapter is easily identifiable to the audience on the character you are reading about. Versus Chapter 1 I ran. Chapter 2 I sat. -- sometimes you need to get into two paragraphs of the book to understand whom the narrator is talking about when written in the first person. The 3rd person for storytelling is the best version for me because everybody knows who is doing what without the DM looking up at you. Emotionally, it distances the person from the character. When you distance yourself you realize it's a story, not your personal issue with the DM. I do 3rd person because I find that characters tend to take the game less personal and it speeds the game along a bit in combat and in town. In the game, I want everybody to understand that the game is a fun fantasy game, nothing else, nothing more. -- I'm a bit bias.
That's an interesting point about 3rd person RP and how it can help you realize it's not the DM out to get *you*. Thanks for sharing!
You should totally start a DMing podcast. I would love listening to these while travelling
Agreed - this channel is awesome
Necro-ing here, but this is a really fascinating video.
Me personally? I play mostly online these days and without cameras. To me body language is important so I need to describe that, and I do so in third person. But I find it really fun to do voices while DMing even if I flub lines (helps that I run a less serious game). So I end up usually delivering lines directly then quickly stepping back to describe their intent and body language indirectly. I might be wasting some value able time here actually, but I like the feel it gives (at least on my side i have fun haha) to breathe a presence into the character with ego then refine and clarify the character with narration.
This is a great comment - thanks for sharing! I've never actually played online, so your perspective is really insightful
I'm really loving your channel, you are very insightful and have a lot of good ideas. Thanks!
This is one of the best primers on ROLE playing. I have watched it several times (whenever it comes up in my queue). Alot more could be said about this. A book could be written on this subject
Great breakdown of the different styles! Developing a million NPC voices bogs me down all the time so I started using a mixture of direct and indirect 3rd person without giving it much thought. Practiced voices and dialog for big NPCs and descriptive conversation for gaurd 2 and barkeep 3.
Thank you for putting this together in a clear and informative manner. I disagree that while DMing that I use the 3rd person for RP. I use the 3rd for narration, as you mentioned, but for RP I almost exclusively use the 1st or 2nd person. "I reckon I ought to keep these drinks coming." "You look like a fellow who needs a few drinks." Of course followed by the aforementioned 'the barkeep looks up at you from behind a stack of grimy tankards'.
Ah, that is an interesting semantic point. Thanks for brining it up
I'm a primarily 1st person player, but my PC is never an extension of my ego. I tend to try to create a PC that is very, very different than myself, with a very different psychology...but I tend to operate from a space of empathy. I want to empathize with this character who is so different than me. So I tend to use 1st Person.
Well put! I didn't consider that angle - thanks for sharing :)
Indeed, that's my go to.
Yeah, it is more about being immersed to me. I may fall into third party for situations I do not wish to be that immersed in.
Happy to have found the channel! Great video!
I just want to express my disagreement at 6:53. I, for example, just think I can relate more to my character if I speak in first person, and that helps me figure out what they would do. Even more so if they're not similar to me.
That is a great point! Thanks for the input and sharing your perspective!
Nice work. Love the speaking voice distinction, and I’ll give the chase rule back a try! Thanks
Let me know who it goes!!
I tend to always use 3rd person or indirect dialogue as a player, mainly because I am TERRIBLE at thinking on the spot. The only time I tend to do direct dialogue is if I have something pre-planned and written out, which usually is never going to happen in a D&D session.
EXACTLY!!
Man, you give me a brand new look at role games
There is a lot of psychology in D&D. When one takes the time to break it down and allow themselves to be intuitive to the game in session you will pick up on these nuances in character development and creation. In many of the game sessions I participated in I found that many players speak in first person while in character and action. To me this shows a more personalized and empathetic aspect to the PC they play. It becomes a more higher expression of their moral, or amoral self. They create a cord or connection to their entity taking to heart its failures, or victories. I myself tend to play in third person because I find it more liberating. It frees me up to allow myself to understand the view points of another's perspective on the world they live in, which is not like my own. I see through their eyes and not mine. It is not to say I feel less empathy for them. It is that I learn to know them in their intimate moments and world view perspective. If I personalize the character I will lose the chance of truly understanding them as individual entities. It will cause me take to heart their failures as if it were my own, and in doing so the game becomes less enjoyable. There have been a few times where I witness players becoming very upset when a character they play dies, or makes a fatal mistake during session because they see the PC as themselves. To me it is best to disassociate yourself from the character you create, because you will lose the value of learned perspective. The joy of D&D is its diversity of characters and creatures that are entrenched in their own history and beliefs. You can step into the shoes of an Elvish Rogue, a Gnomish bard, a Goblin druid, or female Barbarian warrior. There are myriad characters you have the opportunity to help give life too. But in the end they are individuals whose origins are different from our own. And because of that they teach us to become something that we are not in our own lives. To understand the humanity of others through their trails and tribulation of hero ascension. We come to recognize our own aspirations to striving toward our better selves. That is the beauty of this game.
This is a really well thought out comment. Thanks for sharing! I agree that seeing things from different eyes and stepping into others shoes can be good for you too :)
Incredibly useful video, thanks for making this!
Thanks for your service
check out my vid that's out just for veterans day
I appreciate you bringing this up, and broadly speaking, you're right. But there are nuances and outliers that make this question even deeper than you suggest. For example: even Players who RP deeply might switch to third-person when describing something particularly cinematic, something that uses a trope from movies or TV. This is because some of us (and some games, or even some *moments* in game play) speak more through "genre simulation" than "ontological simulation." Other variables include "Bleed-in" and its freaky cousin "Bleed-out," both of which different people have different propensities for (or defenses against). It would be interesting to take this conversation to another level, is what I'm sayin'. :-) Rock on.
Yeah the cinematic/overhead camera idea is something I didn't think of - and I totally agree! Thanks for brining it up!
Great video! It really makes me feel better about not always speaking in a character's voice as a dm.
I do think you can make "bad dialogue" into something fun though. At a more relaxed and casual table leaning into bad and silly dialogue can create some very humorous moments.
Totally!! Great point - thanks for sharing!
I find it's a very interesting topic, because I tend to "lose" dialog to my players, just because I'm not such good in acting as sometimes they can be. Or because of lack of proper words.
But with indirect speech, descriptions you can really create proper attitude. Also, and this can be really useful, you can prepare such dialogues before the game. Just because you don't need to respond to some concrete words, but rather give the idea of what a conversation was about.
That means, if you're better writer than an actor, this could really enrich gaming experience for everybody
Good point about writers and actors!
11k views and 600 likes? Come on people... Dude your content is awesome and so different from the most mainstream sources, you helped me answer so many questions about DMing, thanks!
Great channel, keep it up! Greetings From Argentina
I really appreciate that! I try to make my content distinct, and I'm happy you think it is :)
Great vid on something very near and dear to me! I’ve been frustrated by the rhetoric in the community that acting and doing character voices is the only “real” RP for years. I really like the use of the chase rules as well.
I think streaming has really shifted the expectation. Don't get me wrong, I love acting-as-roleplay, but it's important to hear a variety of options.
Zipperon Disney I agree! Streaming has definitely changed expectations, especially Critical Role (which is great!). I think acting is great and my best friend who plays in my games and runs my favorite games to play in is a great actor with theater background and his voices and mannerisms bring a lot to the game! But it’s not the be all end all and I personally felt very inadequate in comparison for a long time and that was always reinforced by the community that would say things like “we are REAL role players, we play for 4 hours and never even touch the dice” and just the gate keeping implications that if you don’t want to do first person direct role play with character voices and everything then you are at best a neophyte basic player and maybe someday you’ll grow up and be a real role player and that just never sat well with me. I’m ecstatic that people have a great time with their fantastic acting skills and if they barely touch the dice and that’s fun for them, that’s awesome! But please don’t invalidate me and people like me because our fun looks different from yours. Anyways, I’m off my rant box and I did really like the video, it definitely is good for people to learn about all their options!
Thanks for a really great video, a lot of great tips. Think is much easier to RP like this 👍
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching :)
Your hack is actually kinda cool and I'm probably gonna steal it! I shall share your video with the homies
THANK YOU! Instead of getting stacks on stacks, I need them shares on shares yo!
this video has helped me a lot, thank you.
Glad you found it helpful! :)
Interesting insights! Sometimes I'm pretty good at dming dialog, other times not so much.
When I was playing last, I remember I wanted to basically play Link, and use this kind of method so that he would never speak. The campaign never took off, unfortunately...
Thanks again for the tip. I'm no good at doing voice this will help me out a lot
I promise your players will have a joyful, memorable time even if you're not an actor. That can't be said enough!
In my current campaign, I've been trying to stay in third person because it's less stressful because I don't want to be immersed to the same degree.
I think some times players mode-switch to 3rd person when they otherwise would generally default to 1st person, because in that particular instant they don't want to switch the focus of the entire table to themselves. (I later edited my comment for grammar.)
That's a keen insight! Thanks for sharing!
Great vid btw. The bit about speaking naturally has lots of subtexts that got me thinking about some of my games. I speak with lots of subtexts and many players feel I'm hiding something. This is true because PEOPLE DONT REVEAL EVERY MOTIVE in real life. But there is an expectation in RPGs unfortunately. I think it's a wrong expectation as well. Sure when running a D&D adventure game you need to make people a little more one dimensional to move things along because players aren't interested in delving into character motivations or seeking the truth behind subtext. However, in my deeper games where it is all PC/character-driven than normal speech is the default and is a MAJOR hurdler for many players that aren't used to speaking like a normal human in an RPG.
Thanks for pointing that out and revealing why it's difficult for many players to "act like a normal person" in RPGs.
Glad you liked it! And thanks for the thoughtful comment - you're right you need to remember that moving the game along is also an important function of talking w NPCs!
@@ZipperonDisney I agree but only with plot driven games. They are quest givers, info centers, obstacles, and ego strokers.
In player driven sandbox where there is no plot and the world moves with or without them, NPCs have deeper motivations, as deep as any PC or human on Earth.
Subtext comes with that. And speaking only in character PCs need to discern the subtext and delve deeper. In the past I would use words such as "act like a normal person" but what I really meant was "NPCs will talk with subtext."
Great vid!
I am not gonna agree with you just yet, but you have opened my mind to this subject. And I will try it out for a bit in my games.
Disagree away! I often disagree with myself too ;) I'm just happy I gave you something to think about
@@ZipperonDisney Well shit yeah, you just got yourself a new subscriber
I switch between direct and indirect often depending, basically, on how much time I have to think about my actions. When I have time, I use indirect, but in the moment, especially during roleplay, I go into 1st person.
That's interesting! I usefully do the opposite!
I do the oposite xD"
This is a fantastic channel. I'm glad I found it.
This is so incredibly helpful
rare subject, not a lot of other sources of info on this topic
@@ZipperonDisney
I have a bit of disappointing experiences with dms who doesn't have the sensitivity to embrace when a player shift to 3r person, this helps me understand the process that go's behind. Thanks!
i paused the video at the best possible time by accident. at 10:00 exactly is the most "dear-in-headlights" look i've ever seen. 🤣
Amazing video! Maybe I don't think quite like you, but you inspire a mechanic for an RPG about negotiation. So... Thanks!
And really make me think about the reasons to choose indirect RP. This video was helpful.
Glad to hear it! You might also like my Interrogations video, there is a cool system in that one two for social interaction
@@ZipperonDisney Alrighty, then! I'm going there. Thank you!
While I agree with all that you said, ego is not the only reason a player might use the first person in their role-playing, but it could come from humility as well.
Think of it out of game; when an unfavorable situation happens, we can often alleviate blame by speaking in the third person, but there is no way to avoid ownership of your part when you address someone in the first. "We went out and someone put my girlfriend in a compromising position, forcing me to man up" is a lot more passive than "I beat him up for groping my girl"
So in that intense moment when Grog the Impailer kills the princesses cat, your player might use the first person indirect to convey that, despite hating the action, they are owning it.
Such sensible advice. Great video.
Thanks a bunch! I've been digging some of your older stuff too!
@@ZipperonDisney Cool.
I really enjoyed your content. Thanks!
I'm glad you enjoy it!
Half my players for my game fall victim to the "character is an extension of their ego" trap and get upset at me when their characters mess up or get hurt
Well it's natural the player isn't happy when their character dies.
Anyone else get the blue pawprint reference?
11:36
Also great video; very helpful. Thanks! 👍
9:04
Funny you do indeed use indirect here but not third person... you are specifically using “second person indirect with present tense”.
:)
I might bounce around these depending on the situation and what is true to the character, but I never do character voices or accents. I'm not comfortable with it and often find it *cheesy* as Hell.
It's mad cringe. I find 3rd person way better. I like narrating my character more than living them because I can give a lot more nuance I couldn't compete with in first person unless I was walking around and really working for that Emmy.
awesome. just awesome.
Glad you enjoyed it
@@ZipperonDisney I do enjoy it lots! Most of all your attitude and positivity, but the content is just on point as well. Hope to see more :)
Thank you
Nobody talk about this topic! But they should!
I think indirect is going to be my new go to. I've thought about using it before but I enjoy speaking in character so much that I'm afraid when I do use indirect role-playing that my players will think the NPC is unimportant. I think I may just try indirect role-playing majority of NPCs, but do direct role-playing to make certain NPCs special or make what they do say directly to be something special. I'm also going to try to use indirect as a player, since I think I may have some annoying that guy tendencies and the amount of direct role-playing I do might be one of them. Lol
aye, good shit dude
Happy to provide some insight :)
I usually use 1st person perspective but in very tense or uncomfortable situation I do shift to 3rd person. Sometimes it is a conscious decision (f.ex. I'm not comfortable with flirting with my DM for example, so I will intentionally *not*) sometimes it isn't. And sometimes - player or dm doesn't matter - I'm lazy and don't want to play out the whole scene so I just go "and then they tell you about this and that. done"
Great video. I totally default to the third person all the time like you! When you play instead of DM do your habits change at all? Mine dont.
So I DM a lot, play a lot of GMless games, and just play a crap ton of games in general (and always looking for more!). I never thought of the empathy and ego component before (so thanks for that) but I'd say I'm definitely guilty of just treating any character as distanced from my own ego. Not in an attempt to really get in another headspace or empathize, but more like I'm permanently in director/cinematography mode as player or DM. I may throw in 1st person indirect, but it's generally 3rd person.
I have to try and hold myself back when I play. As a DM, you get so used to driving the story that it takes a conscious effort to lean back and watch. As far as RP, I'll do whatever the majority of the table is doing - including doing a voice the whole session :)
I don’t want to sound weird, but you have a really nice voice. Your videos are easy to follow with how you speak and explain things and your general tone.
Great vid, thanks for helping my DM skills.🤛
I come from a family of preachers, does it show? ;)
I do both indirect dialogue and I also roleplay NPC's every now and then. I do find it hard to balance those two.
I appreciate the commentary on this subject. I prefer the 3rd person style and using direct dialog only sparingly. In watching some of the various play sessions that can be found on RUclips, I find, to my dismay, most younger players tend toward the 1st person and direct dialog. I know this is how some people enjoy the game, but i personally find it irritating especially when it begins to resemble LARPing. If you want to play that sort of game, go with "How to Host a Murder" or other mystery party games. Maybe i'm just too much of a curmudgeon.
I’ve been meaning to ask, where did you read about how people relate to their character through the use of 1st and 2nd person? I would like to site that idea.
Hmm...I dunno. It may have been my own idea
6:49 *The more characters you can identify with in first person the better roleplayer/actor you are. IMO it's one of primary DM skills to be able to impersonate NPCs.*
Nope
I've seen people get angry when i mention that you can play on just 3rd person, like they say "that is wrong, or that you need to improve or you can have more fun if try acting on 1st person"
And i will say: they are wrong, because i like playong sometimes on.1st and others on 3rd and i see no difference, and i dm for neurodivergent people and some of them literally cant play on 'direct 1st person', and even so, they get angry if you ask them to do it and they have told me bad experiences with that for people who just keep trying to push them and force them to play on 1st person sayong they are 'playing wrong'
Also, playing on 3rd person helps people with not so high charisma to play High charisma characters, since they maybe dont knoe how to act like a 18-20 charisma character, but thats ok, because is the character's charisma, not theirs
I realize that this is a year old and I missed out on the conversation (but so what, I just stumbled upon this now.).
That was a great intro, the "show, don't tell style narration" really sucked me in... by the time you were done I had forgotten that I was watching a video about D&D and was instead imagining the early days of Rome. 😃
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*Yes!* 😆 I love seeing this degree of thought put into Roleplaying!!!
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I've tried having this level of contemplative and introspective discussion with Larpers & Roleplayers... they just don't get it (many of them clearly identify with their Characters, but always claim that they don't - like; choosing to play as a villainous character who acts like a dick towards other players, but always excusing it away by proclaiming "that's just how my character is.").
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Here's one for you to think about:
You say DMs can only speak using one of two perspectives; (what you're calling Direct and Indirect; so 1st person Narration as an NPC 'acting' and true "3rd person Narration" 'descriptive.' But what about the Meta of "who" you are talking to?).
*Example*
*3rd person Indirect; as narration*
DM Narrating: As you approach the graveyard you see the Dwarf you were told to meet with, the light from his torch illuminates the darkness. You take notice of the ring of keys he is firmly gripping at his side.
*3rd person Direct; as 1st person acting*
GM acting as NPC: 'With one hand on your side and motioning with the other; you say;' "Come Adventures, this way to the Crypt."
*3rd person Indirect; as narration*
GM Narrating: He beckons you over with the flick of his wrist, His torch whooshing back and forth.
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Either way It's Narrative Storytelling for an "audience" who is meant to take part in the collaborative process of discovering/ crafting the story "together."
But who is your audience?
(Are you addressing the Players, or their Characters? - or Both at the same time?).
Who is the "You" so commonly referred to by DMs? DMs typically use "You" interchangeably to refer to both a Player and their Character (assuming them one and the same). Isn’t this an omissions of the reality that no matter what Players may try and conceptualize; they are innately their Character (the Character is always tied to some aspect of the Player's psyche.).
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"True" DM Narration is vary rare; because it would take Character "Agency" away from their creator "the Player" (otherwise it would be a "choose the Characters' adventure" - as apposed to the "choose your own adventure" format that all RPGs tend to be. It's not just Collaborative Storytelling, it's a step up from "Immersive" Collaborative Storytelling. It's "your story/ fantasy" even if you can't/ won't admit that to yourself. "It's escapeism" and there's nothing bad/ wrong with that; accept and embrace it.).
*Example of "Indirect" 3rd person DM "Narration" directed solely at the Players*
*3rd person Indirect; as narration*
DM Narration: The Party of Adventurers enters the dimly lit graveyard. They see a vague figure holding a torch, that must be the Dwarf they were instructed to meet with.
DM prompts the Players by asking them: "So, what do your Characters do?"
(Referring to Characters and Players separately. It's just not as enjoyable: you might as well just go read a book. It completely breaks the concept of "acting" 'roleplaying' for the Player's sake/ for their sense of "suspended disbelief.").
Why would a GM "act out" the NPC "with" the Players if the Players are not themselves the Characters. The whole point of 'roleplaying' is to interact with eachother! Even if you're bad at acting or feel too self conscious to do so, the least you can do is "inhabit" the consciousness of your Character "take ownership" even if you are rationalizing the experience as "exploring other was of being" - as in "playing" at being/ doing things you wouldn't normally do.
"1st and 3rd person" roleplaying is only one small step removed from one another (Players who identify with/ as their Character conceptualize their Character as some degree of an extension of themselves - Players who claim to not identify with/ as their Character conceptualize their Character as some form of "puppet" they themselves still possess all the Agency; if that Character has any restrictions, it's because their creator deemed it so. If they have any strengths; it's because their creator decided it should be... etc. etc.).
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This video made me hopeful with anticipation for more great content: hopefully worth my subscription.
I like your point about *who* the DM is narrating for. There is a lot to unpack there, and you shared some good stuff. I hope other folks scroll down to read your comment
@@ZipperonDisney Thanks.
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So far I'm enjoying your content, very few in the "gaming community" put in as much thought as you have "or at the least; very few take the time to share their thoughts and musings."
🙂🤝
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"Storytelling" and thus 'writing' are much older mediums of expression then "Roleplaying games" so we have a lot more "philosophic/ academic contemplations" to interact with in the form of Narratology then we do for RPGs... even Ludology in general hasn't received the same degree of "love"/ attention. I think it's becoming more prominent in people's thoughts though - especially with a greater/ increasing awareness of the profits generated by the gaming industry.
I use 2nd person as opposed to 3rd person. So "You walk to up the dragon and...blah blah blah"
You're 100% right about DMs using 2nd person...Totally slipped my mind when making this!!
Playing in 1st person properly requires the player identify with and become the character. It does not mean that the character is like the player. The Greeks called this process "mimesis" - imitation. It is the core of acting. Mads Mikkelsen is not a sociopathic serial killer, but he became one in Hannibal; at least he appeared to. For me, mimesis is the aspiration in role-playing, third-person description or indirect speech just distract from this and are not to be encouraged.
Porque no los dos
Is it awkward to reply to a PC in third person that is talking to you in first person?
I see what you mean about not wanting to discourage people from their preferred style but I feel that I can be more spontaneous in third person than first person dialogue.
I don't find it awkward. In practice, I usually switch between the two. If I feel like I have a good line, I'll reply in 1st person, but if I'm just trying to make my point known, it's almost always 3rd person.
I think that indirect or direct roleplay are indifferently superior for players to use. Nobody is really doing direct roleplay when they take actions, they describe them rather than act them out in just about every case. Describing their speech is just a natural extension of that. However, I think that third-person roleplay distances the player from characterization and removes immersion from the table.
The best experience I ever had was the whole table was very descriptive 3rd person. No voices and accents but the story we all built together was amazing.
so much for first person being better for emergency, when I think back on that campaign, I hardly remember actually being at the table. When I think back on that campaign, despite nobody explicitly acting out their character as if there were an Oscar on the line, I remember it almost as if it was a lived experience.
My own brain has long since filled in all the other details and I didn't have to rely on the others at the table for that. It was much like reading a book. Nobody is acting and I'm immersed enough hours fly by without my notice but I think back on the story, I don't remember flipping pages, I just remember the story.
Hey, man, I’ve loved everyone of your videos so far, but I disagree pretty strongly with this one. Before I go any further let me say that it’s perfectly cool to disagree about playing and DMing styles - one of the things that’s great about this game is how it accommodates so many different styles.
I’m one of those DMs/players who lives in 1st and 3rd person direct. I do the dialogue for all my PCs and NPCs. For me it’s one of the best parts of the game.
My main reason for loving direct dialogue is that every single one of the best moments in my games, as DM or player, has resulted from direct dialogue/RP.
For perfect examples just watch any episode of The Chain. Remember episode 1? “I don’t take orders from dead men.” Killer line!
Or how about in that later episode when Tom said, “I dreamed I was a god.”
Or what about that cool thing that Copper said… no, wait, there aren’t any. He never speaks in first person.
There was a legendary moment from one of my old games where, after a plan goes terribly wrong, the player who had come up with the plan turned to another player and declared, in their character’s voice, “I told you this was a bad idea!” Everyone broke out in peals of laughter. It’s been years since that session and we still talk about it.
To say that a player only uses first person direct when they’re playing a version of themselves is pretty much proven wrong by every DM who uses direct language when playing an evil NPC, not to mention by every actor who’s ever lived.
Many times I’ve DM’d conversations where NPCs argued with each other and I’ve spoken both sides, the good guy and the bad guy.
Now, as a player, whenever I switch to 3rd person it’s never anything to do with my character’s motivation, it’s always because I feel it provides a clearer, or more objective explanation - or sometimes just because it feels more cinematic and descriptive:
Sometimes I’ll say this:
DM: Verus, what are you going to do?
Me: I think I’ll search through the books on this book shelf.
Or sometimes I’ll say it like this:
Player: I’ll look over to see what Verus is doing?
Me: Verus is pulling each book off the shelf, rifling through the pages, and then tossing the book on the floor.
Player: “Verus, what are you looking for?”
Me: “Nothing.”
(And sometimes using third person language just works better when you’re playing voice-only online games and there could be some confusion over who is speaking.)
I *always* encourage my players to use 1st or 3rd person direct. Especially when they’re debating in character about something. That’s when the game really comes alive!
When it comes down to it, I use it and I encourage my players to use it, because I just have more *fun* when first person is the practice.
But I also want to say that a DM should *always* play to their strengths - I absolutely agree with you there.
Oh, and I loved the history lessons. Many is the time I’ve used a third person narration to cover a lot of ground, or a span of time, or a “cinematic” story moment. But as soon as a PC interacts with an NPC, I’ll switch to direct language.
Anyway, great video - good food for thought. I upvoted!
WOW! This is super thoughtful. And I totally agree that disagreement != disrespect. Usually, a disagreement can just mean you've found a different perspective on something.
Your points about actors and your reason (cinematic) for switching from 1st to 3rd are really good. And both things I hadn't considered. I'm glad that this has generated some discussion, because there really isn't much about this topic. And in the absence of other's knowledge/opinions, I just have to go on my own.
@@ZipperonDisney I know that a lot of players who don't like using first person direct avoid it because they're afraid that they will say the wrong thing and be laughed at. Not everyone feels that way, certainly, but I think many do. I have a policy when I run a game that I always play off a player's RP *intention*. Whenever a player uses the wrong word, mispronounces something, or stumbles through a speech when they're RPing, we always know what they were intending to say -- so I just go with that. Sometimes other players do laugh, but I don't pay any attention to the laughter and just carry on RPing as if the player had spoken perfectly. If a laughing player makes mention of the flub, I usually just respond, "I know what they meant," and go on RPing. Everyone usually catches on pretty quick and after that the laughter becomes much more good-natured, because everyone, at one point or another, is going to be the one making funny flub.
So, yeah, if you speak as your character you're gonna make a funny flub at some point -- it's just unavoidable. But the benefits far outweigh the risks. To me -- and this is just my opinion -- playing an RPG and being afraid of making a flub is like taking up boxing and being afraid of getting hit. It's just part of the game.
But i like making funny voices :(
Go for it! Just saying it's not necessary :)
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