I chose 3rd person limited because I needed two character POVs and found it awkward in 1st. Not sure if that's a good enough reason, but I haven't seen multiple POVs in 1st done well. Except for romance, of course. I'm writing urban fantasy, so I'm still second guessing myself 🙄
Nice if you to bring up limited. Understanding main character is key, even more so with multiple main characters. I always use limited with my story when I shift setting to the antagonist. Always gives the book a movie feel. One of my faves is "Rendezvous with Rama" by Arthur Clarke.
Some characters do not make for good first person narrators: that is a useful way of looking at the writer's choice of form. In my 17th year I read Mailer's *The Armies of the Night* and was staggered by his chutzpah, turning himself into a 3rd Person narrator and participant in a demo against the Vietnam War. It was a ruthless demolition job on himself. Mailer's more sympathetic contemporary Irwin Shaw used 3rd Person Limited in many short stories and in his Cold War novel *The Troubled Air*. Perhaps my favourite 3rd Person is Dr. Dick Diver in *Tender is the Night* because Fitzgerald through Diver is looking into a future in which he would no longer have any real role or meaning. In ending with Diver fading into insignificance, Fitzgerald was saying farewell to his hopes of a fulfilled life.
This is what I need. I'm writing in it, but I'm not sure how good I am. My first chapter was edited by an amazing editor, and she often said "remember, he wouldn't see or know this." which helped me. When I do edits I can say, "Would he see this?" And improve my craft. :)
Always helpful and informative. I wonder why you almost never see Third Person Objective? I guess it isn't very common but an interesting way to write. As always, thanks for what you do.
In third person limited, can you use italics to express thoughts from the perspective character? I’ve heard contradicting rules and wonder if it’s perspective that dictates this solution.
Lots of good ideas here, thank you! Just one bit of grammar, however-- it's "points of view", not "point of views". Otherwise really good and constructive advice!
I have a character living in a castle and she is the only witness to certain events that the reader must be aware of. So I had to do a chapter from this person's POV.
"I've heard how to do this before," he said, ending the video. Not difficult, but good for short stories. Personally, I prefer omniscient because I am an absolute writing god, naturally.
Depending on the story one is trying to tell, that could be a significant deciding factor between those two choices. I love dramatic irony. Makes me feel like I’m one of the cool kids at the popular lunch table because I’m in on the”joke”. Dramatic irony is a good tool to use for suspense too. When we the readers know the character is walking into a trap 😂😂😂😂 it’s so good! Good call out.
POV might just get its very own dedicated edit/ review. 😂😂😂. As a beginner, I can see it being way too easy to forget the rule about head-hopping (presumably she means within the same scene) but what about within the same chapter? When writing in third person limited, is there an exception for the romance genre where you probably by definition have two main characters’ POV’s?
Personally I wouldn't do that in one single chapter, because it can be confusing. But I really like switching character pov throughout the whole story in several chapters. It's beneficial for stories in which the characters are many kilometers away from each other, but all of them happen to see / experience important stuff. In romance it can give insides into the heads of the respective love interests. But I would be careful with that. It can ruin the thrill of emotions easily, but also happen to bring the story up to new levels on the other hand.
@@blackharmonics4518 Thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading it. I have recently watched other channels and considered POV in the larger scheme of things. I’m learning to make narrator considerations apart from and in addition to POV. For example, should I make the narrator of the story a character in the story or not? Also, I started rethinking whether I really want to do third person or should I do first person - with the answer relating to if I want the reader walking around “on stage” inside a character, or do I want them floating above the stage looking down on the events as they unfold or something in between? Writing first person POV for the male love interest would be super weird for me; but exciting to try, since I have a good handle on the characterization I’d enact on the page for him. I know this character. I think it would be fun to plot out which scenes and chapters would be best told from the male vs female love interest’s POV. I like the idea of switching character povs throughout the story as you’ve said you like to do. That said, I just read the first two chapters of a book with a male and female love interest narrated in first person. You know, I found it a bit jarring! The chapters were labeled by character POV even though it was evident whose head I was in anyway. I can’t decide if it would continue to be jarring or if it’s just that I’m not used to dueling first person POVs. I have a feeling that might be the prevailing trend for the genre and for a certain segment of the market. Such trends do fall in and out of favor. I believe it used to be that third person omniscient was prevalent a long time ago but not so much now? In addition, I’m sure there are genre considerations too as far as how immersive you want the reader’s experience to be. Maybe you want them up close and personal for romance but not as much for horror, for instance. I’m planning to write a romantic thriller so there might be some gore involved. I feel like I can tweak the distance more in third than I can in first - when I might need to pull back a little instead of putting the reader “smack dab in the middle of a ‘horrific’ situation”. Lots of considerations to make around POV. It’s all new to me so I’m excited. Ultimately, I think I will let my wish for the reader’s experience be my guide. I might write a couple of scenes both ways and see how I feel about it as well… Take care and thanks again for your input.
@@nikkinewbie6014 In the end you should always do, what you find the most interesting and fun to write. For me I wouldn't choose first person pov. It's maybe the most immersive pov, but somehow it doesn't feel immersive at all for me. Like every time I read something like "I felt terrible for doing X" or "I shivered when I hear Y" I oftentimes think "No, I don't". So it breaks the immersion for me. Maybe I'm just a weirdo with that.
I’m working on first ever project other than just random individual scenes but trying to learn more craft first. This is the video I do needed. I started out planning to write in third person omniscient until I gleaned that it is more or less passé. 😂😂. It’s a relief to not only get this guidance but to be reassured that third person limited is widely used “nowadays”. I don’t like the idea of writing in first person and the idea of writing in second person is a nonstarter. As a reader I never considered the craft involved in writing from a specific pov. There are Rules! ☺️😂. It’s really interesting to look at it like an author would / should. It will take a deeper understanding of pov and vigilance for me to stay on the right side of those Rules. Suffice it to say that I’ve got some re-writing to do.
OK, but "She turned" only tells me that she turned, nothing else? The next sentence tells me " two snakes were fighting amongst the rocks" There is no indication in the second example that "She" saw the snakes fighting!?
I’m new to this but I think I see your point. Are you saying the sentences don’t work though? Because I think they do. The snakes have been observed by either the character or the third person narrator - or else it could not be described. Those are the only two options. But you’re right. It’s not clear which one (character or narrator) has made the observation - especially since the narrator is allowed to know things the character doesn’t. So the next sentence or two would have to clarify that. The point is that in the example, the reader is now able to put themselves in the scene and imagine it is THEIR senses that are in play - not the characters’. The example just focuses on removing the filter. As a matter of fact I think the whole idea about removing filters is that the reader is EXPECTED to assume they are experiencing whatever is being described - right along with the character. That should be the authors’s intention in writing it this way. This is more me “talking it out” to understand it better myself rather than trying to “answer” you. Am I on the right track?
Better example could be as simple as the difference between “She heard a thunder clap. Seconds later, she watched as lightning lit up the night sky. Changed to: “Thunder clapped. Seconds later, lightning lit up the sky.” In the second iteration, there’s no indication if a character is aware of what’s happened. Could be a character or the narrator. But it’s implied that a character IS witnessing it or else why even mention it unless it’s important for some other reason. Either way, and most importantly, the reader is most likely experiencing it more easily the second way, because it’s not being filtered through the character first. We the readers don’t get the leftovers 😂😂 It’s such a powerful concept! This is basic craft to everyone else I’m sure but it’s a revelation to me! 😂😂.
Willa C Richards wrote a first person thriller *The Comfort of Monsters* (2021) which could only have been written in this form.. Examining the abhorrent crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer, Richards never exploits the subject and approaches the case with moral imagination. *Memory, of course, is also a story* she begins, reminding us that without our flawed memories we could not write coherently. As for 3rd person stories that work: Two dystopian novels *One* by David Karp (1953) and *This Perfect Day* Ira Levin (1970). An exceptional 3rd person thriller: Yiyun Li's *Kinder Than Solitude* which she sets in her native Beijing - she now lives in California. Liz Moore's *The Unseen World* (2016) deals with Artificial Intelligence, and employs limited 3rd person POV with a shock ending. Ms Moore's mesmerising tale left me with a desire for human company: Machines can never replace our flawed and mortal humanity.
Your point on filters was very helpful. I'm editing with it in mind now. It is really helping to trim the story of unnecessary words.
I chose 3rd person limited because I needed two character POVs and found it awkward in 1st. Not sure if that's a good enough reason, but I haven't seen multiple POVs in 1st done well. Except for romance, of course. I'm writing urban fantasy, so I'm still second guessing myself 🙄
Rick Riordan does it pretty well :)
I'll take a look, thanks!
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Nice if you to bring up limited. Understanding main character is key, even more so with multiple main characters. I always use limited with my story when I shift setting to the antagonist. Always gives the book a movie feel. One of my faves is "Rendezvous with Rama" by Arthur Clarke.
Some characters do not make for good first person narrators: that is a useful way of looking at the writer's choice of form.
In my 17th year I read Mailer's *The Armies of the Night* and was staggered by his chutzpah, turning himself into a 3rd Person narrator and participant in a demo against the Vietnam War. It was a ruthless demolition job on himself.
Mailer's more sympathetic contemporary Irwin Shaw used 3rd Person Limited in many short stories and in his Cold War novel *The Troubled Air*.
Perhaps my favourite 3rd Person is Dr. Dick Diver in *Tender is the Night* because Fitzgerald through Diver is looking into a future in which he would no longer have any real role or meaning. In ending with Diver fading into insignificance, Fitzgerald was saying farewell to his hopes of a fulfilled life.
This is what I need. I'm writing in it, but I'm not sure how good I am. My first chapter was edited by an amazing editor, and she often said "remember, he wouldn't see or know this." which helped me. When I do edits I can say, "Would he see this?" And improve my craft. :)
Always helpful and informative. I wonder why you almost never see Third Person Objective? I guess it isn't very common but an interesting way to write. As always, thanks for what you do.
My novel will start with "I literally died. I am writing this inside of my grave."
Excellent job, Shaelin. Explained beautifully, as usual. 👌
crier's war is in third person limited i believe, and it's very excellent.
You are so underrated ❤😊. This is pure gold!!
In third person limited, can you use italics to express thoughts from the perspective character? I’ve heard contradicting rules and wonder if it’s perspective that dictates this solution.
Works best in romance novels---3rd person.
Can't quite figure out any differences between limited and extended 3rd person.
Lots of good ideas here, thank you! Just one bit of grammar, however-- it's "points of view", not "point of views". Otherwise really good and constructive advice!
Third person limited is hard for me to watch. I kinda default to first person. But I think third person limited would be better. God bless 🙏 🙏 🙏
Thx for the tips
I use third person limited present tense.
I have a character living in a castle and she is the only witness to certain events that the reader must be aware of. So I had to do a chapter from this person's POV.
Very helpful. Thank you!
"I've heard how to do this before," he said, ending the video. Not difficult, but good for short stories. Personally, I prefer omniscient because I am an absolute writing god, naturally.
could you perhaps consider doing a video on how to novelize a film in the future?
3rd person POV also allows for dramatic irony. Can't do that with 1st person.
Depending on the story one is trying to tell, that could be a significant deciding factor between those two choices. I love dramatic irony. Makes me feel like I’m one of the cool kids at the popular lunch table because I’m in on the”joke”.
Dramatic irony is a good tool to use for suspense too. When we the readers know the character is walking into a trap 😂😂😂😂 it’s so good!
Good call out.
POV might just get its very own dedicated edit/ review. 😂😂😂. As a beginner, I can see it being way too easy to forget the rule about head-hopping (presumably she means within the same scene) but what about within the same chapter?
When writing in third person limited, is there an exception for the romance genre where you probably by definition have two main characters’ POV’s?
Personally I wouldn't do that in one single chapter, because it can be confusing. But I really like switching character pov throughout the whole story in several chapters. It's beneficial for stories in which the characters are many kilometers away from each other, but all of them happen to see / experience important stuff.
In romance it can give insides into the heads of the respective love interests. But I would be careful with that. It can ruin the thrill of emotions easily, but also happen to bring the story up to new levels on the other hand.
@@blackharmonics4518 Thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading it.
I have recently watched other channels and considered POV in the larger scheme of things. I’m learning to make narrator considerations apart from and in addition to POV. For example, should I make the narrator of the story a character in the story or not?
Also, I started rethinking whether I really want to do third person or should I do first person - with the answer relating to if I want the reader walking around “on stage” inside a character, or do I want them floating above the stage looking down on the events as they unfold or something in between?
Writing first person POV for the male love interest would be super weird for me; but exciting to try, since I have a good handle on the characterization I’d enact on the page for him. I know this character. I think it would be fun to plot out which scenes and chapters would be best told from the male vs female love interest’s POV.
I like the idea of switching character povs throughout the story as you’ve said you like to do. That said, I just read the first two chapters of a book with a male and female love interest narrated in first person.
You know, I found it a bit jarring! The chapters were labeled by character POV even though it was evident whose head I was in anyway. I can’t decide if it would continue to be jarring or if it’s just that I’m not used to dueling first person POVs.
I have a feeling that might be the prevailing trend for the genre and for a certain segment of the market. Such trends do fall in and out of favor. I believe it used to be that third person omniscient was prevalent a long time ago but not so much now?
In addition, I’m sure there are genre considerations too as far as how immersive you want the reader’s experience to be. Maybe you want them up close and personal for romance but not as much for horror, for instance.
I’m planning to write a romantic thriller so there might be some gore involved. I feel like I can tweak the distance more in third than I can in first - when I might need to pull back a little instead of putting the reader “smack dab in the middle of a ‘horrific’ situation”.
Lots of considerations to make around POV. It’s all new to me so I’m excited. Ultimately, I think I will let my wish for the reader’s experience be my guide. I might write a couple of scenes both ways and see how I feel about it as well…
Take care and thanks again for your input.
@@nikkinewbie6014 In the end you should always do, what you find the most interesting and fun to write.
For me I wouldn't choose first person pov. It's maybe the most immersive pov, but somehow it doesn't feel immersive at all for me. Like every time I read something like "I felt terrible for doing X" or "I shivered when I hear Y" I oftentimes think "No, I don't". So it breaks the immersion for me. Maybe I'm just a weirdo with that.
What kind of third person POV is Harry Potter ? The limited part confuses me
I write first person POV so my people can be guaranteed not to die
Most of the book is written in third person limited, but a couple of the chapters are written in third person Omniscient.
Always awesome.
Insightful
I choose third person because it is easier
I’m working on first ever project other than just random individual scenes but trying to learn more craft first. This is the video I do needed.
I started out planning to write in third person omniscient until I gleaned that it is more or less passé. 😂😂. It’s a relief to not only get this guidance but to be reassured that third person limited is widely used “nowadays”. I don’t like the idea of writing in first person and the idea of writing in second person is a nonstarter.
As a reader I never considered the craft involved in writing from a specific pov. There are Rules! ☺️😂. It’s really interesting to look at it like an author would / should.
It will take a deeper understanding of pov and vigilance for me to stay on the right side of those Rules. Suffice it to say that I’ve got some re-writing to do.
Can third person narrator be biased to one character
Put the cameras on me while I go and eat breakfast.
OK, but "She turned" only tells me that she turned, nothing else? The next sentence tells me " two snakes were fighting amongst the rocks" There is no indication in the second example that "She" saw the snakes fighting!?
I’m new to this but I think I see your point. Are you saying the sentences don’t work though? Because I think they do. The snakes have been observed by either the character or the third person narrator - or else it could not be described. Those are the only two options.
But you’re right. It’s not clear which one (character or narrator) has made the observation - especially since the narrator is allowed to know things the character doesn’t. So the next sentence or two would have to clarify that.
The point is that in the example, the reader is now able to put themselves in the scene and imagine it is THEIR senses that are in play - not the characters’.
The example just focuses on removing the filter. As a matter of fact I think the whole idea about removing filters is that the reader is EXPECTED to assume they are experiencing whatever is being described - right along with the character. That should be the authors’s intention in writing it this way.
This is more me “talking it out” to understand it better myself rather than trying to “answer” you. Am I on the right track?
Better example could be as simple as the difference between “She heard a thunder clap. Seconds later, she watched as lightning lit up the night sky. Changed to: “Thunder clapped. Seconds later, lightning lit up the sky.”
In the second iteration, there’s no indication if a character is aware of what’s happened. Could be a character or the narrator. But it’s implied that a character IS witnessing it or else why even mention it unless it’s important for some other reason.
Either way, and most importantly, the reader is most likely experiencing it more easily the second way, because it’s not being filtered through the character first. We the readers don’t get the leftovers 😂😂
It’s such a powerful concept! This is basic craft to everyone else I’m sure but it’s a revelation to me! 😂😂.
You don’t get enough views.
I hate 3rd person stories. Mary Jane maffini crime books are horrible to read. It looked interesting but I will never buy another one.
Willa C Richards wrote a first person thriller *The Comfort of Monsters* (2021) which could only have been written in this form..
Examining the abhorrent crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer, Richards never exploits the subject and approaches the case with moral imagination.
*Memory, of course, is also a story* she begins, reminding us that without our flawed memories we could not write coherently.
As for 3rd person stories that work: Two dystopian novels *One* by David Karp (1953) and *This Perfect Day* Ira Levin (1970).
An exceptional 3rd person thriller: Yiyun Li's *Kinder Than Solitude* which she sets in her native Beijing - she now lives in California.
Liz Moore's *The Unseen World* (2016) deals with Artificial Intelligence, and employs limited 3rd person POV with a shock ending.
Ms Moore's mesmerising tale left me with a desire for human company: Machines can never replace our flawed and mortal humanity.
Exactly how I feel about first person lol
This is not how to write it, it's more of a 'what' or explanation of what it is. Wrong video for me.
The sound in these videos is awful
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Question? Why do you advertise your site as being a community when your management literally excludes people with out 5 years experience. WTF.
Multiple points of view, not multiple point of views.