The real reasons why people play zoners
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- #fightinggames #guiltygear #gaming
We talked about why people play grapplers in fighting games. Now, let's explore why people play the zoning archetype in fighting games.
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Glue sniffer is why
Ain't no way you called zoners glue sniffers
@@LordKnightfgc They need space to smell their glue in peace, cant get the good hit in if a silverback gorilla is climbing all over you, keep that disrespectful chap at full screen
@@CaptinSpyke The gorillas hog all the glue if you don’t keep them full screen.
hell naw axl got tha middle school install
@@LordKnightfgc he’s saying the reason they play zoners is BECAUSE of the glue sniffer. Axl beats the glue sniffer.
I simply found the idea of playing tag instead of a fighting game to be very funny
Who would want to play a fighting game when you could play a game of tag? This guy is spittin frfr.
-i play happy chaos
agree, i play peacock and robo fortune in skullgirls and i just love teleporting or flying away when my opponent thinks they were actually able to approach
Thank you exactly the only reason I play Zoners is because it causes my friends to flame and I find that hilarious
Reasons I play zoners:
- I like neutral
- I don't wanna hold mix-ups
- I feed off your suffering
average zoner mindset
To pile on the mtg analogy, I think zoners are more like control players, where they want to slap you down and control the pace of the game until they have a spot they can definitely win from. In this case, I see LK as more of a tempo player, preferring to live on the edge and maneuver around the opponent, using its defense offensively. Grapplers are just out here playing ramp decks so they can just slam a big dino on the table and slap you silly for the crime of walking up. As someone who tends to gravitate towards midrange/control, this is a very interesting way for me to look at how I pick characters lol.
It’s the sense of fulfillment in perfecting the range between you and the enemy so you can force them to play a certain way and thus punish them.
@@Zyzzkxx exactly. so satisfying.
Can definitely confirm that whilst I play every type of character and deck out there, I definitely main predominantly control/combo control and play characters that are more defensively orientated. Blue White player in MTG here ftw
Never really looked at it like that, I main Axl and typically run blue black red, blue white red Kess, Narset looking for control and set up win cons. Blue is in just about every deck I run. Cool way to look at it.
When you gravitate towards rushdown characters and play red black as youre favorite colors and make the connection
**this is fine**
That feeling of CONTROL when you can shape the entire pace of the fight and deny someone at every opportunity... Surviving any offensive onslaught your opponent throws at you and then resetting it back to neutral knowing they failed to make an impact and that their actions have been futile... That feeling of CHECK MATE is why I love playing as defensively orientated, often zoning characters.
It feels like you win with your brain, and not because you flipped a coin with the onga bonga
I get your point but as someone who plays rushdown or unga bunga characters, I don’t see it as flipping a coin sure sometimes it is. But often it’s me conditioning my opponent to think on knockdown I’m always going to go low then when i know that’s what their used to I go overhead. Or constantly throwing and once I’ve conditioned them i go overhead/low or condition with frame traps etc etc. people who truly coin flip with no logic behind their mix ups generally won’t go very far
Meanwhile crushing zoners gives me a hard on because there is nothing like slowly closing in on someone who is trying to keep you out only to obliterate them once you are inside knowing they did everything they could to stop you and failed. The despair nourishes me.
Tbh, reading your reasoning, I'm pretty sure that mindset could be applied to any playstyle.
Also playing baby mode neutral is a good feeling with zoners
I play Ky so I can display a very calm and disciplined neutral to trick them into thinking I’m thinking and then run up grab them
lordknight: * declares that outboxing is zoning *
me: "he's out of line. but he's right."
Man Floyd's infighting is slept on.
@@sylascole5254 basically all of Floyds game is slept on (besides that annoying ass group of mother fuckers who think he is THE goat). His infighting and clinch work is OD, great distance management, phenomenal counter punching, and back when he was pretty boy he actually had some power behind his shots.
Thats kinda what happens when you lean into being a heel though, people want to see you get your asa kicked so you get downplayed.
Mayweather being classified as a zoner has completely rocked my world
I can't speak for everyone but the reason why I picked a zoner is because people play like apes, Apes are dangerous and I would like to not interact with them just like any human.
But going unga is life man!
It's not like you don't want to interact with apes (you are choosing to play the game after all), more like, you enjoy putting them in cages lmfao
@@gallo123 or in chaos’s case, you’re harambe’ing them
@@gallo123 Well the stage is only so big so it’s more like you’re in a cage with a ape, and as a human I would like to have a gun.
You cant lose to masher if he never gets close to you.
When they were developing Dhalsim, they kept making his limbs shorter and longer because the devs were all arguing over how big his attacks should be. Since they were creating one of the first zoners, they didn't have anything to use as a reference point for "how far is too far" for a zoner.
Obviously he ended up fucking busted but at least they still put a lot of thought into it.
Lol that closing statement. I didn’t know this though, thanks for sharing
Busted? He was low tier in every version of SF2 except ST. He was high tier in that one, but in no way busted.
LMAO sim busted!?! Bru has never played against Vega
1. You're a threat at all ranges (except maybe up close, but, you know)
2. You feel like a certifiable genius if you keep rushdown characters out.
3. You feel like certifiable supergenius if you win zoning matchups with flair.¸
4. You get that much better at fighting other zoners with non-zoning characters thanks to experience.
If you lose, it doesnt feel as bad because people who beat you genuinely outplay you
@@piwithatsme I disagree. Losing against someone who is completely out of your range feels terrible. I have a friend and were of similar skill and when we play the same characters its very easy to see were both almost equal but he mains a zoner and i main a rushdown so us going all out is basically me getting bullied untill i get in close for some good dmg before he gets me back out his range and this annoying dance of defence continues
Calling yourself a genius for zoning is absolutely insane lol it is one of the most consistently safe archetypes. Very little risk vs reward and if you do mess up most zoners have many tools to move the fight back into their favor.
The feeling of just keeping someone trapped with long range buttons is crack. I usually play mid-range disjointed chars, but I can definitely sympathize with the zoner pleasure in shutting someone down every time they try and escape corner or get in.
So you like being an annoying POS? Couldn't be me
forcing opponents to play at your pace as opposed to what they want gives you a satisfying advantage and that goes hand in hand with zoners
I never thought zoners were cheap because I'm actually pretty bad at zoning, lol. I think it's usually a lot easier to get in and do mixups or pressure. Throwing out projectiles is easy, but throwing out the exact correct move to keep another player away from you at all times is not. Now I dabble with Axl, but I'm way better with I-no.
Sidenote: People used to talk shit to me for using Baraka's one projectile, even though if they weren't scrubs they'd just duck.
Hearing you say people don't play zoners for fun was weird.
Personaly, poking people from afar, figuring out their patterns and shutting down their approaches is one of the most fun parts about fighting games for me. Especially if I manage to properly defend when they do get in and then get away again, when my opponent seems lost and gives up on approaching, instead just sitting there hoping I will get to them instead is when I feel the most validated. Yuzuriha from UNI is probably my favorite fighting game character, I never had more fun playing any other character in any other game.
On the other hand, destroying opponents with unreactable mixups or bullying them with pressure that always leaves me plus seems rather dull to me.
Since you play Millia, I assume it's the opposite for you.
Would be interesting if you asked on twitter what kind of playstyles and types of interactions people find the most fun in fighting games, and then made a video reading responses and sharing your thoughts.
As a spectator, I like zoners for the same reason I like any other archetype, I love it when a plan comes together. Seeing a zoner consistently put an attack right where the opponent moves themselves to and shutting down any and all approaches is just as satisfying as seeing the grappler getting in and setting up command throw pressure or the glass cannon deftly avoid incoming damage as they rain hell on their opponent.
As a player, I'm a poor zoner. I get impatient and run at the enemy. :p So I also respect the restraint it takes to play one properly.
I really think you nailed it. I play Marth in Melee, and a lot of what I get out of the zoning aspect is a feeling of control. It's fun for me to put my opponent in a situation where if I don't make a mistake, they won't be able to get in. I will continue to beat you bit by bit. Also, having super fast characters like Fox, and Captain Falcon to fight against is exciting. If I become predictable with pre-emptive swinging I will get completely run over. So I have to make all these decisions as fast as my opponent forces me to, and live on a razor edge where on one side I succeed, and on the other I get punished really hard. Interestingly enough, that feeling of losing control over the situation on screen, and being put in a bad position is really fun too. Situations feel like they always circle back to "What could I have done better?". My opponent knows they want to get in, I know I want to keep them at a certain range, and then we fight for control.
There's other parts I like, which are things like having I think the most interesting hitboxes in the game where you can start to learn how to use sour spots, and reverse hitboxes to do some really fun combos. Tipper is also a really interesting mechanic because of how heavily it rewards precise spacing. But that's more character specific, and I think you really are on to something with your description of the archetype.
i dont usually pick zoners, but in strive i just found axl's design super cool; drip, time stop super, tk bomber sauce. so i just gravitated to him. I also appreciate how rare zoner players are (unless the zoners are completely broken like mvc3 moriggan).
Morrigan ain't broken she's strong but only reason why it seems stupid is cause of boom. If it was only Morrigan doing it without any good assist then it's mad easy to get in. Also doing soul loops ain't easy
On the MTG three type classification, I do think zoner characters have a lot of draw to the Timmy archetype as well. I've definitely seen people drawn to someone like Axl just based on seeing the huge buttons. Sure it's not a big and muscular guy but full screen normals do present a lot of clear up front power.
I think it's honestly a lot more accurate to tie fg characters to *deck* archetypes rather than player archetypes. Control decks in mtg also try to win by disrupting their opponent's game plan instead of advancing their own, and they also need to manage their resources to keep rushdown (or aggro in card game terms) off of their faces. Any kind of player can play control or zoners, because drawing a lot of cards as a control deck or hitting a reversal super is just as much a timmy moment as slamming a pot buster or summoning a big mtg monster
As a zoner, there is a sense of achievement in perfecting your range between the enemy and punishing when they try to destroy the perfect balance(range) so you can aggressively switch to punish the enemy and keep on pushing.
Also Za Warudo!!!
I like zoning characters because they're like a test in fundamentals, for both me and the opponent. Also to express my misanthropy in a safe environment.
As a lame style player in almost every game I play you hit the nail pretty close on the head. I thoroughly enjoy zoners as a playstyle, it's hella fun for me to play, it's relaxing playing at your set pace reacting to stuff, and the biggest thing is I love stopping people that just want to enforce their will on you the whole game.
I never played or liked zoners until I picked up Happy Chaos (even tho I don't think he is fully a zoner, but he can definitely do it).
Always annoyed how Chipps or Milias just run and fly around the screen, but as soon as you pull out the gun, they freeze. They HAVE to block. They HAVE to sit still and be patient for 2 seconds.
This feeling is just amazing.
Bro really summarized a skill issue character pick wild
@@pvksupersoniccharacter picks can’t make you better, they just change the skills you need to learn. Hc covered this guys weaknesses while introducing difficulty that he was better at managing.
The reason I play zoners is because I like having ranges that different characters are good at. You get to use more of the screen and extremely varied attacks that cover as many angles as they miss. When you get a long range knockdown, it creates a new situation where you can reposition to set up your next gauntlet of hitboxes for people to navigate. Haters that don't get it call that running away, when from the zoner's perspective, they attack better from that range so it's an offensive movement. The only matchups I really don't like are when you play a midscreen normals zoner vs a full screen projectile zoner (for example ferry vs the bow lady in GBFV). A lot of times, zoners are not given the tools to close the distance against those characters and it feels like ferry is forced to play rushdown with a kit that has zero rushdown moves.
Well said, as someone who plays zoners in some games yes, as an oleander player for example, when someone gets hit with one of my fireballs, i see it as an opportunity to charge magic, and setup orbs to enable me to throw fireballs more easily, as the orbs control space by themselves. I will run to midscreen often and start throwing midrange fireballs and normals, then get a knockdown and if i have enough magic, left right 50/50, if not, start her amazing stagger pressure and can end my string with fireballs when spaced properly to be plus, OR do B retreating teleport at the end of my string and start zoning again. People who complain about zoners simply don't have patience.
Despite what I said, i still agree Ole is very dominant, esPECIALLY with fred install, she is very strong im ok with maining her, cry about it.
Despite us both playing zoners somewhat differently (i typically approach on knockdown, you setup more zoning on knockdown) yes it is both offense. In ykur case they are getting chipped by projectiles and losing health, in my case, i am stagger pressuring and doing a little chip with some fireballs in pressure or orbs, which are always plus, and threatening strike throw, or high low if i scare them, and left right on knockdown. Another example is gia, she's not a hard zoner but can do it well, especially with assists then after she can threaten high lows or left rights.
I find pretty satisfying when ypu figth someone that actually tries to get around your zoning and it becomes a close match because IMO thats what fighting games are, getting to play and have fun with opponents at the same level
It's definitely about aesthetics and Control for me. Knowing that someone at full screen still has to respect your offensive choices, knowing you direct the pace of the match, it just feels so good. Getting a ranged combo feels elegant to me.
You can say cowardice too, that's fine. I play a lot of keep-away because I'm not as mechanically sound as a lot of people, and I can't beat them up close. I don't want to lose there, so I run to where I don't have to get punched in the face.
But I also don't think anyone likes being Genesic Emerald Tager Bustered. That's just universal.
I picked up axl as my first true zoner and I just like his simplicity, the gameplan is very straightforward and it mostly requires me to adapt to my opponent at a safe distance.
Also you get more opportunities to interact with your opponent and see what kind of options they like to pick (will the sol try to ground viper after blocking rensengeki, do they use double jump to mix up their approach and so on), so it feels like even if I have less expirience in fgs I can pick up some of their habits more easily, and it makes the best of three more personal than a match with maybe a nago that exploded me twice and that I exploded thrice (love fighting nago, but it's a different experience).
Edit: also absolutely agree that there's a somewhat zen feeling while playing a zoner, it's uncommon for you not to be in an advantageous situation and all you have to do is mantain it, while making your opponent's life as hard as possible
It’s like experimenting
As someone who primarily gravitates towards zoners and space control characters what you said about a feeling of control was spot on.
I tried SFV recently and went straight to the amazing Menat because of that video (“Thank you, I have a man”). Turns out she’s a weird zoner and it’s been interesting playing the turtle after so much Millia Rage.
Ken (Haha Ken) has seen my punishes to all his very minus specials and jump-ins are clearly not tolerated - no fly zone. Menat deflects fireballs. Jab. Jab. He has nothing and we both know it. Release the orbs. It’s a feeling more powerful than Garuda.
i mainly play zoners because i like keeping people from having fun SLOWLY rather than grapplers keeping people from having fun QUICKLY
How dubious and villainous
I think the main draw for me is that I get to hit people a lot in neutral. I don't mind if I get blocked or my damage is ass, I just love the feeling of stopping my opponent with a bop on the head whenever they try to do something. It's about control, yes, but also saying NOPE to whatever the opponent is going for. I don't mind blocking for days or dealing with mixups, because I know it's not my turn and I still have options to deny them what they want. Even when I play rushdown characters I have way more fun baiting reversals or doing a throw shimmy than going for a high/low or a cross-up.
Playing a Zoner also protects me from what I hate most: Getting counter hit for pressing buttons in neutral.
I've been waiting for this finally my people rise up zoners
Please let me in, I wanna play too
I came to this video again months after i first watched it. I got a tip from a friend that based on my style when trying to learn fighting games, i wanted to play zoner.
At first, i thought I was all rushdown all the time. Then, oddly, when i started playing rushdown characters, i would, against their entire playstyle, back up and get more space. That suggestion brought me to this video to understand the mentality, and then you showed me Nu.
You mentioned you dont like the mech aesthetic, but i do, a lot. The moment i saw her, i knew i had to play her. Took me a while to find what game she was from, but when i found out, i picked up Blazblue and immediately started maining Nu, which made me realize im just a zoner through and through.
As for why...its because i realized i dont like gambling. I dont like to take risks, but i still want to win, or if learning, gather information. My input execution, as a new player, is very low. I can do specials, but many combos are beyond my ability at the moment. So, with that, zoners, at least the ones ive played, played on my strengths of using space and gauging reach of attacks, as well as mitigated my lack of combo skill(not to say zoners have no combos). With this, my hands can still keep up with what im processing. As I'm still learning i still lose, often. Now its because i made the wrong decisions, and made incorrect predictions or assumptions instead of a blanket "i cant do combos in the game and cant convert damage to a win", which feels better to me for some reason
I started playing axl in strive because i enjoyed to always be playing and/or attacking, no matter where both me and the other player are positioned during a match
"There's no way someone who's into big strong muscle mode will play a zoner" and then there's me, who picked Peacock for her grab super and Naoto for her IK's
"People don't generally play zoners for fun"
Wrong. You have no idea how much pleasure seeing your eyes losing their sparkle and your soul slowly leaving your body give me
Axl my beloved
I really like the feeling of frustrating the opponent, and looking calm while doing it. zoners/poking characters provide me this way more than rushdown or setplay.
Also, Millia is way worse than Chipp agains Axl. Every normal is just a bet lol
Also, having weak defense, and having to improvise to scape some situations is fun at times
One comment on the MtG player archetypes:
There's a fourth player type that isn't mentioned here called the Vorthos. These are players who like cards, decks, or playstyles based off of the lore of the cards. This could be extrapolated to those who play characters for the aesthetics and personality. For instance, one person at my locals always plays "bad boy" type characters such as Terumi in BB and Belial in GBVS.
And as a side note, I do think traditional Grapplers in specific are often a hybrid of Timmy (big bodies and fat damage) and Johnny (working towards a singular, powerful win condition) archetypes as opposed to just being Timmies.
EDIT: I forgot that Vorthos has a "sister archetype" in the Melvin, which is the mechanical counterpart.
Saving this for research purposes 🙏🏾
I play zoners because I suck at comboing but I’m good at identifying players weaknesses. Figuring out what my opponent can’t deal with is a fun minigame
Really enjoyed this video! Hope you break down other archetypes!
I like playing Zoners, specifically ones with a lot of projectiles/obstacles, because I like setting up traps more than rushing combos. Yea I only get 1-3 or 15 hit combo with multihit projectile, but it's satisfying to see the whole stage becomes your sandbox.
I see a lot of other people saying this already but I'll add on too for the algorithm. What you said about a feeling of control is 100% spot on. It's why I play Byakuya in Undernight instead of a traditional zoner like phonon or vatista. The webs provide control and security to run my gameplan behind.
When I play zoners, like Hilda from UNICLR or Ivy from SC6, I like the feeling of having options from anywhere on the screen. My opponent isn't "safe" if they are farther away from me so then they get desperate and try to rush in. You let them rush right into your attack. They dig their own graves. So yeah, it's being in control and making accurate reads and responses based on where your opponent is on screen. It adds to the perception of an unassailable opponent.
Fucked up part about ivy is that shes also a grappler lmao
I mostly like them because they force you to learn defense in a new way. You’re limited up close, but your defense IS having your game plan. Guile can scrap up close, but he can set up those situations with a sonic boom that recovers quickly for frame advantage. It’s a ballet of range and opportunity.
I think a couple points point that didn't get covered much is the idea of "All according to keikaku", "I have all the right tools to keep you out and if I am smart/careful/thoughtful enough I can make that happen", and straight up it feels kinda good to be the oppressor and telling your opponent "no" everytime they try to get in.
Going back to card game analogy, zoners are control decks. Magic wise they are blue/white, they force you to play under "fair" rules and make you ask for permission to press buttons. Whereas grapplers would be black/green, big stat blocks with huge power who sacrifice life to do insane damage.
I’d say he got it pretty spot on for me at least, playing zoners helps make myself feel a lot more calm and confident. I know that I can keep them out, I know that I can play patient, and wait for them to slip up. It can be scary when the opponent is up in your face, but being able to escape the situation, reset back to neutral, and regain your footing feels super nice. “Alright, the hard part is over. I’m back in control” that’s what makes me love zoners so much
For me it's the knowing that I have the tools to never let someone touch me if I react quickly and can predict their approaches, nothing feels better than playing perfectly and ending a round without taking damage or ever having to block
I love either projectile zoners or midrange button bullies because both characters excel at winning neutral. They also tend to have aesthetics I love.
Any examples when it comes to midrange button bullies?
@@ayers01 for SFIV I played Dictator, for Strive I play May. Both have really oppressive buttons.
@@barbedwings Thanks that gives me a better idea of what they're about. I usually hear descriptions of the playstyle w/o any good examples from it.
@@ayers01 another amazing button bully in Strive is Giovanna
@@barbedwings Thanks I need to get back into Strive and might give her a try.
I know I’m probably not the target audience for this, but as a total casual I play zoning characters exclusively for fun because every character who’s just Punch and Kick Man makes me want to tear my hair out from boredom. I know people will say “oh but their shit leads into interesting combos” but the fact is I just don’t personally care about game mechanics and block strings and I’m glad there are characters that are made to be immediately interesting in some way
I think my biggest enjoyment from zoners is hard reads. I personally enjoy the axl and dhalism. While they enjoy large attacks, they also have quite a few precise ones and landing those into a nice combo feels good. I really feel this with axl in GGXX.
Honestly, the reason I play Zoners is because I enjoy it and I'm immensely good at it because I'm good at neutral. I almost always know what they are going to do and how to stuff it once I know what kind of player they are. I also use that same ability to play Rushdown as a heart player (As categorized in that one CoreAGaming video) because I'm about all conditioning and reads. I basically started as a Zoner player because I couldn't do combos but I knew what I was good at. Then after I learned combos, I took my skills of knowing what they will do and then stuffing it and turned that into an aggressive playstyle. So for me, it's not about the "not wanting to get hit." It's about the enjoyment of knowing what they are going to do or making them do what I want them to do and the joy of countering it.
Is happy chaos consider a zoner? I found myself like a bit of a hyper between zoner and mix up char I think( I like zato and happy chaos in strive)
@@phamhoangthong4815 I'd certainly call him a Zoner. Though I would also say he's a very unique one since he has so many mechanics stacked on top of that. He doesn't feel as derivative of Dhalsim as someone like Axl does because he has things like the ability to move forward while shooting, his dummy mechanic, his targeting system, ect... So I guess it's fair to say that he's a very advanced kind of Zoner in terms of managing his systems and resources but in contrast you're not nearly as busy trying to predict their exact approach angles and timings as you would be with someone like Axl. It's an interesting trade-off to achieve similar goals through different means.
@@TakumiJoyconBoyz then I think I just like overly complex char then :p
@@phamhoangthong4815 I mean, you did say you also like Zato, lol. You basically picked the two most complex characters currently in the game.
I've been wondering if I enjoy playing zoners or not. Been playing chaos in particular, and while it's pretty fun blasting away from fullscreen and constantly keeping my opponent at bay, the moment someone gets in on me I stop wanting to play that way. Like, as soon as I get them in me I don't want to go back to zoning, I wanna go punch em and mix em up. Sort of like an in and out type of playstyle. But that's not always an easy thing to do, and sometimes I just straight up get bored if my opponents keep letting me zone them forever.
I played Gio and Jack-O before this, and I found both to be a very rewarding learning experience (albeit I almost dropped Jack-O because I just didn't feel like I was making any headway with her, before I eventually got into celestial with her). With Chaos though, even after making it into celestial and climbing the rankings this month I haven't really felt that way at all. It's not like all of my matches have been easy wins mind you. I'm just not getting that same click in my brain that tells me I'm doing a good job that makes me feel good for playing the character.
I don't like playing zoners for the most part but Axl is the exception. Axl has to commit really hard for his choices considering he doesn't use projectiles. Long recovery and the fact that his chains have hitboxes means you get punished harder as Axl than other zoners if you spray and pray. To make up for that, he's actually got some crazy fun "go in" potential. I like that I really have to be careful with my zoning tools and I like having the option to go for wild high-execution run-ins
I very much gravitate towards zoners, and I'm particularly fond of setplay-based zoners, especially if they move (not necessarily attack) quickly or have some form of teleportation. More specifically, Testament is one of my favorite characters of all time purely in terms of how his gameplay feels, but I also love C-Roa, C/F-Nrvnqsr, Carmine, Byakuya, Gordeau, Izanami, Nu/Lambda, Arakune, Nine, Raven, Dormammu, Scharlachrot, Kudlak-Sin, etc. This is all just to paint a picture: if they're an edgelord and they pin the opponent down while making me untouchable, that's who I like to play. And I think you're absolutely spot on about the reasons, including the brazen, shameless cowardice and the desire to control the pace of the match.
It just makes sense. I want to determine where my opponent is coming from and punish them for even trying to get in - in fact, I want to _force_ my opponent into attacking in certain ways, either because they've lost confidence in attacking from a given angle or because I've built an airtight cage between me and them. When my opponent gets punished for daring to try to play the game, I want my okizeme to be ridiculously oppressive so I can continue to limit their options and thus minimize the risk to myself. Ideally, I want my opponent to become so demoralized they choke and let me mix them up while their thoughts are busy racing through how they're going to try to escape, putting them back exactly where they belong: kneeling in the corner, swallowing my blockstring, desperate to avoid getting opened up as their guard meter drains and their life slowly ticks away from the chip damage. Especially if they're a hyper-fast rushdown character: they can fucking eat it all.
The one thing I'd disagree with is I'm not sure what you mean when you say people don't pick zoners to "have fun." I'm having the time of my fucking life here. Maybe the other dude isn't having fun, but nobody is enjoying themselves _that_ much while they're getting a mix run on them - that's just the nature of the beast.
I play zoners because I hate my opponent
Lk: *has an analysis of why someone would like zoning*
Me: hehe, someone's going to be salty because of my Axl.
I honestly started playing axl just because I loved how fluid and cool his close slash combos looked. The zoning element is always sort of an after thought
I'm a zoner main. You're absolutely spot on, defensive, careful, control the space and control the pace. One thing I'd add is that getting beat by a good zoner player is demoralising in a way that's hard to describe. Like you never had a chance in the first place, like there's nothing you can do, like your controller doesn't even work or may as well not. Like you showed up to a fist fight and your opponent has a rifle and starts 200m away. I absolutely love daring you to do something unsafe as you get more and more tilted by my half-screen pokes.
This outro is AMAZING
I never knew I was a Zoner until i started breaking down my chosen characters over the years: Ranger Slayer from BFTG, Hilda from UNI, Vlov in MBTL, Jack from Tekken(I play him like keep out), and finally now JP from SF6. I like keeping people at bay and don't like rushdown, so when I get to control the game Im relaxed and able to take the game at my pace not my opponents
I don’t exactly play a *zoner*, but playing Sin in Xrd definitely gives me a feeling of controlling the match even when I’m not doing anything because my options are just so threatening they always have to consider them. Not to mention, playing a zoner, you gotta have a little villain streak in you when you fight some poor close range character who can’t move well and you just don’t let them have ANY fun at all. It rules, trust me.
I play with zoners because i like to make people mad
it's like picking telekinesis over super strength. waterbending over firebending. mage over knight.
I play Axl and I play him for fun. I love Axl and playing zoners. Controlling space and calling out your opponents movement is great fun.
Also you know your opponent goes on tilt and it feels so good
There's a simplicity of gameplan when being a zoner that I enjoy. If I'm out of their range, I'm doing well. If they're in range, I'm fucked. I can sort of split my learning of the game into 2, which lets me focus on one at a time when I'm trying to improve. I know my state and that helps my brain figure out all the crazy shit happening on screen.
I think Axl is really fun to play. People who like rushdown enjoy pressuring you until you make a mistake. I enjoy predicting how the opponent is gonna approach and placing a sickle there.
I love the comparative to magic. Being a control deck freak myself, zoning in magic is a real thing.
I love the rush of "one mistake and I'm dead."
This video was too short, part 2 please! Also 100% accurate!
Best answer: You can put off learning combos.
Zoners often have some of the hardest combos
@@Cezkarma Yeah but you scrub out matches without knowing any of them.
@@happycamperds9917 lmaaooo calling zoners scrubby is the easiest way to out yourself as a scrub.
@@Cezkarma Bruh, take a breath. They aren't saying that zoners are scrubby, they are saying that their gameplan isn't reliant on learning combos early on. A rushdown character is in a very risky situation where the tables can turn rapidly, and thus needs to leverage every hit for damage and strong oki/positioning. But every hit a zoner does knocks back. They don't have to combo, because even a single hit is a big win for them in terms of positioning and frame advantage.
Getting overly defensive about your chosen character archetype is also a very easy way to out yourself as a scrub.
@@Nofixdahdress the guys second comment says zoners scrub out matches
Why I love playing Zoners
- They can be aggressive while tying in their zoning
- They still have cool ass combos
- Depending on how their kit is designed, they can be very cool to play and even fight against
- They can be fun depending on how you feel about them
I play zoners for fun when they got flashy moves and cool mechanics. Axl in Strive has some of the flashiest looking combos in the game with TK bomber loops and a time stop. Doctor Doom in all his mvc iterations is SO hype, he got so much love. Weirder pick, Duck Hunt in Smash can play ping pong with an exploding tin can and do cool tricks to hit you anywhere on the screen with it.
My favourite thing to do in FGs is to condition jumps and hit anti airs, and zoners are spec'd the most into that style of play
I just like the idea of feeling like a villain that can win without my opponent even getting close to me, makes it really fun to play vs friends at equal level because then it's like you are an obstacle for them to beat, so when they win, i get excited too :]
When I first tried BlazBlue years ago on the PS3 I picked Lambda as my first character because shooting swords everywhere looked really cool.
Really good video, interesting points and fun ideas about why people play zoners. Good content as always. Glad I started watching you cause of strive.
Ps- I think that zoners can be like Timmy because controlling space makes you feel powerful. The feeling of oppressing others through zoning and the self-expression in how you annoy your opponent is fun. But its also why people hate fighting zoners.
You’re right. Watching the video, I assumed power just meant big damage, but it’s just described as wanting a “visceral feeling…” Reading the comments, that seems to be more common a reason to play them.
A Johnny would probably like a character with super well rounded options, so they can carve out some niche tech to win with.
Some zoners do that… but it’s honestly more common that the fgc incarnation of a Johnny is ‘that Potemkin player that wants to condition you to jump into HPB’
Player type is explicitly about _why_ you play the game, not what you play in it. It would probably be more useful to discuss what each Player type can enjoy within an archetype than to try to assign a player to that archetype.
The only zoning like character I play is Samus in Smash Bros, and it's because, outside of feeling very technical, her neutral feels very structured. Breaking from expectations and positioning her for different things is really interesting with her.
Normally though, I like characters where THE MIX is in timing and spacing, more so than a real mix that you can't just wait out. Like Hakumen, or defensive leaning shotos. (Jin/Ky/Ryu).
Very much though, yeah. I'm looking for a feeling of control. A playstyle that's very about smacking my opponent for decisions they're making, more so than overpowering with situation enforcement.
Actually NRS/WB games' Zoning isn't really a super big thing in them as far as MK goes, yes it is a much bigger thing then most games especially in recent years (except maybe SNK games) but it's not the main point of MK as you can see in MKX and MK11, it's only IJ games in which Zoning is indeed the main thing of. And people that play Zoners DO play them for fun, I can tell you that as a Zoning player myself, I find it much more fun to control the pace of the match from full screen and playing a more slow and methodical playstyle than just going ham all the time. In fact that calm feeling for being at full screen and the challenge of controlling a Zoning char just like you mentioned is just that type of fun that you get from playing them.
I’ve watched boxing my entire life so when you brought up Mayweather Jr while talking about zoning I fuckin died laughing😂
I recently started playing Axl cause I suck at doing a lot of things in the actual fighting game. You can call zoning my crutch, I can’t fight you while you’re in my face so I grab tools to keep you away from it so I don’t need to worry about the thing I suck at. Though I am trying to fix them I think I still can’t react to things like getting crossed, I find myself swapping my block just a bit too slow sometimes so unless I fix my reaction time or something I think I can only really keep relying on my crutch. Another thing is that I suck at combos, I always try combos that people consider simple and I can’t organize the inputs I need to keep doing in my head. Sometimes I misinput, sometimes I literally just stop in the middle, other times I just suck. I mean I learned how to do the TK bomber, if the even consider that a combo, but while learning it I realized it’s more of a timing thing than anything. I mean this could mean exactly what I need in other combos, maybe I’m just timing my input wrong or something idk, but honestly I’ve felt pretty comfortable with Axl, I’m still hardstuck floor 8 though Axl is the whole reason why I even got to floor 8, hope I can get somewhere further with it cause I do wanna get better at fighting games
I’m surprised someone said guile before dhalsim. But personally I just play whoever fits me or fits my style, and in GG it’s kinda Axl. It’s generally fun cause I have to actually think about what buttons are moves to throw out at the right time and analyze how they like to approach and stuff it, then on defense I get to show I can actually handle some stuff. But another reason I would want to play a zoner is simply to get people mad tbh. Kinda gets me going knowing people bitch about the playstyle so heavily and it’s great😌
*casually sipping coffee while scrolling through the war in the comments*
I really do think "control" is the key word. Zoners, by virtue of having ludicrous amounts of space control, also control the pace and win conditions of the match itself. The game centers around you, like a mini boss-battle. I especially like zoners that have an offensive tone to them as well. Characters like Rachel and Vatista that have significant potential up close as long as they've set themselves up properly are just a blast, as you can snap from one extreme to the other as situations demand and throw people off. In fact, somewhat counterintuitively, those cases that have a foot in both camps are what draw me to the archetype far more than traditional zoners do.
you were really consistent this round, LK
you covered everything before time ran out
PERFECT job, you just cannot be touched.
The Potemkin hate makes me smile every time. The glue must be getting to my brain.
The classic dichotomy of "my character takes skill" and "your character is braindead" will never not make me laugh lol
Def wrong about zoning not being fun. And we're not the only ones out here trying to not get hit (pixie players) lol.
I am curious to what you all think regarding this question, is Dizzy a "Zoner"? While she has certain options which are great for space control, she doesn't quite play like a traditional Zoner, such as Axl. Her focus is a bit more setplay and oki based.
I would say that maybe with the exception of Axl, there are no true zoners in Xrd, unlike BB. This is because characters who have tools for zoning, like Venom and Dizzy, also have strong offensive tools, and their zoning requires setup which can leave them vulnerable. Basically, they're conditional zoners based on the matchup and how the flow of the match is going. Venom and Dizzy might zone for a couple seconds at a time, but that zoning is always done with the goal of getting another reward in mind, unlike someone like Nu where the zoning IS the reward. Hell, even Axl goes in from time to time just to remind his opponent that his close range offense is still GG offense.
@@NeoBoneGirl Yeah, I agree with that. Every character in GG has their own flavor of rush down. Its just a matter of how much rush down you want in your character.
She's set play. She doesn't want to keep you out, she wants you locked in.
She's both.
I’d say she’s a set-up character with a lot of okizeme options
That feeling you described at the end I get in the opposite direction. Playing Pot vs Axl and slowly working my way in, looking for the right opportunity to act on a read, score a knockdown and then blow them up is very satisfying.
Also I think there's something to be said that in anime games grapplers go against the grain quite a bit, thus appealing to Johnny players as well. The lack of speed in a subgenre defined by it is pretty different. Also anime grapplers often have a lot of depth to dive into and optimize once you get passed the surface.
I was never a zoner player until Strive Axl, dude is just too cool in looks, animation and personality.
"Your main is a reflection of yourself". It do be like that, I have gravitated towards "balanced" characters since I got into fighting games back in '07. I want the ability to zone if I have to, to rush down if I have to, good normals, and a reversal is a must for mind games and disrespect.
So Jin in BB, Yuel in GBVS, and while I currently main Anji in GG, I'm thinking of eventually maining Ky or Chipp because I feel like Anji needs to be polished up some more in Strive, that and no DP is pain. I personally could never play a pure zoner or grappler, zoning is just unfun to me and grapplers are usually slow and have god awful match ups against true zoners (Tager vs Nu/Lambda is big yikes).
Timmy likes a full screen normal, Johnny likes the time stop sets, and spike wants to not get hit - axl is E for everyone
A part of why people choose their character comes down to how much they like to react and how much they like to pre-empt.
Potemkin's moves are generally too slow to allow meaningful responses on reaction to the opponent's moves. Potemkin players end up gambling with reads and throw life away as a resource.
Millia being the opposite. She is fast enough to meaningfully respond to opponent's inputs on reaction. Millia players enjoy taking action when they have confidence in the situation the opponent presented for them.
Axl uses a relatively neutral balance of reactions and reads, but is unique in his ability to directly challenge anything the opponent does from anywhere. The zoner always sets the pace of the match and their opponent must play to the beat of their drum in order to win.
Love these talks.
I've played rush down my whole life and recently picked up axl and Its kinda fun to relish in my opponents' suffering
I play vlov in mbtl, but it wasnt because hes a zoner, i like the beeg button and simple combo/gameplan kind of characters. considering that i play nago in strive and labrys/hyde in bbtag gravitating towards the zoner in a game like melty felt kinda weird when i realized that i switched archetypes like that.
I play zoners and grapplers because i can't do combos
But also, covering half the screen with one normal just gives me so much dopamine
Great video
Just a thought since you compared fighting game styles with Magic the Gathering playstyles. Zoners are more of on the Control decks end of Magic the Gathering. Whereas, grapplers and rushdown players are more Midrange and Aggro decks respectively.
Grapplers: Build up their gameplan to unleash major damage. Might be slow at the start but always ready to leave a huge impact. (like a big creature)
Rushdowns: Deal as much damage as you can before your opponent can set anything up until it's too late. (aggro weenies)
Zoners: Saying no to any and all of your opponent's attacks. (counterspells)
I'm guessing all the other archetypes could be shotos are the Tempo decks and puppet characters are the pure Combo decks.
I like mid-range zoning characters that zone using mid-range pokes and punishes. I find it fun to play that way.
That’s why I play: Blue Beetle, Faust, D’vorah, Trunks, Kohaku, etc.
Typically characters like this have slower frames and may have trouble up close but that challenge of keeping people in the sweets pot is fun for me.
I just gain satisfaction in watching my opponents repeatedly fail to engage on offense because I’m on the other side of the screen