THE PROBLEM WITH TANKS
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- Опубликовано: 9 май 2024
- It's no secret that Overwatch 2 forever changed the way the tank role would be played. Unfortunately, for a lot of veteran tank players the experience has felt inferior. Many have chosen to put blame on the format and offer no other solutions. This video is not that.
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THE PROBLEM: (0:00)
WINSTON: (1:43)
REINHARDT: (2:32)
RAMATTRA: (4:55)
ZARYA: (7:35)
JUNKERQUEEN: (9:29)
D.VA: (10:18)
ROADHOG: (11:54)
WRECKING BALL: (13:31)
MAUGA: (15:39)
SIGMA: (17:17)
ORISA: (17:51)
DOOMFIST: (19:19)
OUTRO: (20:15) 
Игры
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Want a more in-depth explanation? Perhaps even a react to what 6v6 advocates might have to say? Look no further!
Here's a 1-hour long react to a react by the biggest pro 6v6 gamer Samito!
ruclips.net/video/dOwWPmaEoZ0/видео.html
why didnt blizzard give us a poll for 5v5 or 6v6. ow2 "cancelled" pvp such a cash grab, remove a tank buff the rest and slap a 2 on the name
I think Doom should be moved back to DPS and Venture should be moved to Tank. I also think no Ultimate ability should be cancellable with the exception of sleep or EMP (and only EMP not hack ability). I also think, Immortality and Suzu need to be removed from the game. The get out of jail free cards have got to stop. Idc how many times I do or don’t die, but I get closer and closer to having a heart attack everytime I’m robbed of a kill from an ABILITY. Like Lucio has Beat, his ultimate. How do you surpass beat? Just do as much damage as fast as possible. Zen does crazy healing and is near invincible as his ultimate. How do you beat it? Anti healing effect. How do you beat an ability suzu? You don’t. There’s no counter, and its free every 14 seconds. At least you can shoot immortality. Just remove the abilities from the game entirely or make them their ultimates I promise it will be better for everyone.
Finally I think the Devs need to stop releasing Characters who have hyper mobility. We have too many now. Cass is great but at this rate he can’t compete. Rein can’t compete. Ashe can’t really compete. Zen can’t compete, etc.
The goal of a hyper mobile character in every game ever even in OW1, is someone who’s fast, hard to hit, but low health, with average damage. A Glass Cannon. A hit and run. Look at OG Genji and Tracer.
Now Venture gets shields and she has a kill combo that works on practically every hero. Sojourn can snipe across the map better than widow. Doom can die, get back on the largest map and get a pick in 10-15 seconds. Sombra has a kill combo that works on pretty much every hero and an escape. Etc.
Like look at Genji and Tracer. OG hyper mobile heroes. They have to be careful of their play of they will die. These other heroes get away with murder and nobody talks about it. Idk, games busted.
trying to take the footsy battles as a rein vs orisa or roadhog, i think rein should get a little jump like lifeweaver
Simpler solution for Winston: new passive where all damage taken has a flat damage reduction of 2 or so, like old armor but worse. This makes machine guns and shotguns, his omega counters, significantly easier to deal with.
Zarya: clicking right-click gives you a Winston-like hitscan snipe that has a fixed timer on it like Mei, but if you hold down right-click and exceed the timer you get an empowered version of her current right-click instead.
A simple but problematic idea for Ball: take about 15% less dmg while CC'd. Or a much crazier idea: reduce his CC duration, giving him unique interactions and animations vs. every major CC in the game. E.g. he makes a Hamster noise and pops up out of Junkrat trap early, and he has a defensive explosive to pop Cassidy's grenade early, and he starts burning up when frozen by Mei ult, etc. Crowd control like being hit by Doomfist into a wall, will have no change however.
Overall I really dig the solutions in the video though, I think this is the content the game needs to move things in a healthy direction.
Bro just chased a brig around for 45 secs on Winston.
Idk why he didn’t go after the mercy
@@deenmohammad385 *flys away*
@@deenmohammad385gets packed by brig
@@deenmohammad385 because killing mercy is impossible when she has a brig with her, with brig if you have tracer and winston can kill her but not mercy
Well, if you think about it. The other team is left without support, since they’re both focused on one tank. His team SHOULD be able to follow up on that.
Playing tank = playing goalie. You exist for your teammates to make the big plays and they blame you first if the enemy team scores
you are the most important player with the least playmaking potential while constantly getting balls kicked at you
Perfect analogy 😂
Tanks are sooks. You have the most ability to carry and you all suck @@Larg_Man
@@Larg_Mangk’s can have playmaking potential if played in the correct system ie Ter Stegen, Ederson, Neur, Noppert, and other ball playing gk’s
No. That is what supports are for. Do you even play the game?
Yeah with all the problems with tank rn I think nerfing genji would really be the only solution
I think realistically he should be hit with two nerfs just to be sure
*cries in dragonblade getting replaced with a pool noodle*
@@tehgehrmanwalf9765
That pool noodle would do too much DPS. We need to nerf it into a single blade of grass.
I legit stopped playing the game because of this bs
@@Adventist9917a BLADE ??? nah they should nerf that
i STILL can't believe after almost 10 years that FIREstrike does NOT set enemies on fire...
Just sayin...
I also cant believe that hog having one shot with pig pen and hook, they still think it's okay for a slow ass shield tank like rein to not have two shot fire strike
@@mentlegen3887 balance team Just hates rein lol
@@alfred8448well the issue with Rein is that he’s still good, even now, in low ranked games like silver-low plat.
Meanwhile he’s effectively useless in T500 or pro play.
You gotta admit, it’s pretty difficult to balance a hero that’s strong in one rank but weak in another. Idk how I’d go about it.
@@AionicApethat reasoning has always been bull no lie, they buff orisa and mauga every other patch like they aren’t brain dead easy hero’s that bad players struggle against in low ranks
@@yaboibigsmoke2733 this ☝️
Reins ult is not the problem, the problem is that he gets hard countered by half the tank base and gets kited by everyone else.
Is just broken support abilities and inconsistency, why developers thought is a good idea to give new tank a charge with orisa fortify or supports that deny a rein pin (lifeweaver)/cheap instant shatter deny(kiriko). Supports are the main reason the game is unfun because they got too many get out of jail free abilities
Rein is made to be a frontline brawler but in OW2 the frontline is just a single giga-tank that you can’t diff because of the amount of HP and support focus. That, or the enemy tank is a dive style tank so your only play is to aimlessly chase squishies, or as I’ve discovered post S9, just holding a corner without swinging and surviving so your team can win. Far less empowering and fun than landing a 6 man shatter… now you just go for that 1 confirm with shatter but stand the risk of a suzu or lifegrip (let alone a simple petal platform).
@@courier7049 agreed 90% of the reason ow feels so shit is because of support abilities. strongest ults/strongest tacticals and a lot of them require almost 0 thought to use at a passable level. lifeweaver being the most egregious example. literally cannot miss with that hero. at least with mercy u have to be somewhat close and thats all she does
Actuslly he is Countered by every hero and what made him viable was his offtank using cooldowns to give him value and made him fun and interactive
This is why i like open queue with my friend. He plays sigma and I'm a Rein main so we compliment each other and we crush people
Achievement unlocked: "When pigs fly"
Get 3 eliminations in one match while bouncing in air on a Pig Pen trap.
This should already be in a game. When two Roadhogs whole hog each other simultaneously.
Playing tank in OW2 season 9 feels like being an under appreciated and overworked house wife. You have to play perfect and babysit the whole team so they don’t die, for no reward, because the dps and supports get to take all the risks, secure kills and make the big plays. A DPS can die 13 times and no one will notice but if the tank dies once or makes one mistake it’s a tank diff and your whole team will flame.
THIS! Almost every match there is someone typing “tank diff” in the chat. Im tired of this
I've lately switched from tank to dps and even when I play quite poorly I dont get blamed like ever as dps. But as a tank even if I played good I still got blamed so ye this is not fun.
Lmao, this is a good way to describe it. I suppose when the enemy team also joins in on reporting and flaming you as well it's like when disgruntled abusive husbands in the 40s used to tell the neighbours and work colleagues about how awful his wife is 😢
I switched games 2 seasons back. Had enough.
That's what happens when 1 out of the 3 roles has half the players in it
The reason people play tank is because either
1. No one else will
2. The other players are worse at tank.
3. +HP = don't get one-shot
Or 3.:
You like the hero from the lore but get immediately jawpunched by reality
Dang feels like i'm the only one who likes playing tank
@@darkcat6530 yeah. It’s sad cause tank used to be SO much fun but honestly now it feels like you’re just a damage/cc sponge. I miss 6 v 6 TBH.
My playtime on DVA is inspired by the countless other DVAs who filled me with rage by never using their defense matrix. I am the #2 case.
Other tanks: *suggests QoL changes that would make sense and restore flow and keep their identity intact*
Orisa: HELICOPTER HELICOPTER
Tbf, Orisa is baseline more of a tank than any other tank right now, hard to kill, takes attention away from enemies, has cc to prevent death of team/herself. Other tanks don't even come close to her in terms of being a traditional tank thats hard to kill. The only thing I have an issue with is that she has soldiers level of dps if you maintain the overheat mechanic. Like, im not kidding, she's a projectile soldier with 3 get off me buttons with no reloading needed if you cycle buttons right.
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong yea but has the hitbox of death star😂
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong Yeah Orisa's kit may scream tank go brr u cant kill me get away, she still consistently performs poorly across many ranks because she doesnt have that "outplay" factor and her cd cycle isnt all that good. Sigma for example has an actual real shield he can summon wherever he wants on top of suck, plus his high burst damage, which makes him very good at dealing with certain situations. I think the Orisa flying thing while silly would provide her with the last bit of utility she needs to close the gap and actually have an outplayability factor to her gameplay loop
it's nice to see someone actually propose potential ideas and solutions to the tank problem instead of just saying "this is the worst season for tanks" over and over again
Too bad these changes will never actually become a reality
Tf you mean too bad 😭. Bro suggested flying orisa
At this point Blizzard has to bite the bullet and go back to 6v6
I am sorry but these changes are ridiculous. You want tanks that people have been loving and playing for 8 years to get reworked because blizzard can't admit their mistake of dumbing the game down to a worse format ?
instead of the solution of trying to eliminate the weaknesses of all the tanks, they could just allow 2 tanks
The problem with Roadhog: he's not a tank, he's a bruiser that has been forcefully thrust into the tank role.
Roadhog was at his best when there is an actual tank on the team and he is free to roam and pick priority targets, when it's just Roadhog it doesn't work because he was not designed to be an effective tank operating as the backbone in a team fight in the first place. He's a chunky assassin that obtained said chunkiness at the expense of mobility, it's why he has a hook because if he can't go to the enemy, he'll just bring to enemy to him, and why he has a selfheal and a lot of health because if you can't dodge attacks, then you need to be able to survive attacks.
You say that but at the start of OW2 he was broken as shit and right now is in a good spot. He wasn’t really an off-tank, he had a lot more success with D.Va in OW1. Flank hog was more of a meme and more for DPS players that wanted a short queue rather than true hog otps
@@coltonthesultan2994balance and character design are not the same thing dude no shit if he can one shot half the cast he’s gonna be OP that doesn’t make him a good tank like OC said it makes him a good assassin
Idk, i like hog. He punishes anyone they put themselves in a bad position. He's strong at shooting at tanks, he's strong at hooking dps or support. If you dive past him, he WILL just yoink you back to the frontline as winton or doom. The only change I'd like from this is bouncing on pig pen. Lol
my biggest issue with tank is I’m the only one so if I mess up I get put on blast every time without fail
I agree, the DPS can die like 13 times and no one notices, plus they get to have fun securing all the kills…but the tank makes one mistake and everything collapses and it’s a tank diff
Tank feels like a job.
Its always been that way. Tank is in front so the whole enemy can see you fuck up. Meanwhile your Ana that is playing the monitor off challenge that couldnt hit a double decker bus in front him, inting your game away will get off scott free because they are in the back
I get flamed even when I carry. People are obsessed with micromanaging what the tank does, especially when it comes to hero choices. I have 100 hours on Winston, yet my randoms will still tell me to swap when the enemy team has a reaper. You can tell that different language is used for tanks than the other roles. You always get told to swap. It’s usually not about your actual skill, people will just tell you that you aren’t allowed to play your hero. This is a symptom of the tank counter problem of 5v5 and I don’t see a way for blizz to solve this rock paper scissors meta without just going back to 6v6. I can’t imagine a solo tank actually being able to play the hero they want.
I feel like the format is just bad.
@@abudgie6909 With 2 tanks, one tank making a mistake was MUCH less impactful
I wasn't listening I was distracted by yeatle chasing brig and mercy for a minute and a half
This probably wont be read but, I think the idea of removing the ability to fire your primary is awful. Its along the same lines of removing abilities. You are removed the ability to do something because the enemy chose him.
Yeah as a tank player I hate this idea he had for Winston.
I agree! Overwatch has nerfed sombra and (to a lesser extent) CC because the removal of player agency is just not fun. The problem is that OW has a lot of heroes with CC baked in (sombra has the same issue, hack is annoying but baked in to who she is, so they’re stuck). But I feel like they’ve generally done a good job with what they had to work with. Most abilities that remove a players agency have gotten more counterplay baked into their design. If you add that secondary fire to Winston you add the same problem again but worse. The problem isn’t the ability itself, but the lack of a generally available counterplay option.
It could be something like, emptied your entire mag, and you have a forced reload (Inspired by Volgin fight in mgs3)
A weapon disable wouldn't be the worst thing to have in the game, but definitely not something to have on Winston. The point of his alt fire was to give him an option in neutral. Giving him cc like that would just make his kit even more polarized.
Instead he should be able to grab people and throw them a short distance. It'll make for sicker primal juggles and can force people out of position
socrates adam driver pondering the game of overwatch
You mean James Franco
You mean Jaime Jacquez Jr
About Zarya and the contesting snipers thing: how about a right click you can charge for a short time to make it fly faster and further? maybe give it a little damage increase to keep the dps of spammed right clicks and charged right clicks the same.
This is a Better Solution. I wish more Characters had charge shots.
yeah the projectile speed increase with no proposed damage reduction would make Zarya the most broken character to ever touch ow
Yeah...no just delete zarya from the game
how about she doesn't need to contest snipers cause she literally outplays any character that isnt a sniper
or u just swap to sigma if poke is bad for u LOL
About Ramattra: Vortex just fucking sucks. Sometimes you can get a good predict and force the enemy to walk through the entire length of it, but that almost never happens, it just gets spammed out 99% of the time. Make it more engaging, more meaningful, more satisfying and not ''Well I hope they're gonna walk through the hallway I just vortexed''
It's so weak for such a long fkn cooldown; if it was a 7-8 second Cooldown, that'd be one thing, but it's far too weak to be an 11-12 second cooldown
It’s not weak at all that cooldown is really good ur team just farms the person you hit in vortex everytime
as a rein OTP, vortex is really strong if used correctly. It does not need a buff
As a Ramattra main with about 200 hours in him, it’s actually a fairly powerful ability. I most of the time use it in Omnic Mode to slow enemies and can then consistently headshot them. In Nemesis mode, it keeps them from running away and in Annihilation it does the same, able to massively extend your ult. It’s not a lethal ability unless you combo it very well with your other abilities, increasing its lethality A LOT. I think it’s in a decent place where it is now, but the height change in this video would be great.
@@alyssaOW It's too easy to avoid, even for 0 mobility characters, it's insanely inconsistent and that's no fun
I genuinely like almost all the changes but with the Winston one it would make Winston sombra dives miserable to play against not being able to use abilities or primary fire would literally make you unable to play the game
It would be tied to his slower single target secondary fire. In team you would have to decide between consistent multiple target damage or single target disruption. Two seconds is a bit much but I like the general idea of giving Winston some shutdown capabilities
@@toaq1964I despise it lol, the idea was to disable characters that counter him for a bit so he has counterplay, but all it does is enable a worse meta to come around his alt fire. Sombra and Winston combined would deny people from playing and they'd die. And regardless of any idea you may come up with, I'd only allow an ability that disables ability to play the game to be on an Ult and nothing else.
@@toaq1964 the slowness doesn't matter if it's effective
You only need it once per target if the duration was a second that matches a sombra hack that could be applied at the same time so a sombra shooting at you and a winton you're probably died in that second if you aren't a tank and that's assuming no one else is also firing at you
How about half the attack speed for 5 seconds on a around 20 second cool down
@@fergusbarnett2316 idk how good those numbers are but the idea seems frustrating or unnoticeable with an invisible cooldown too
The 'outplayability' is a great insight! Sounds like a great approach to fix the problem!
I think just making the game 5v5 now where the game was 6v6. Kind of messed it up on everyone's playstyle
Bring back 6v6 gang
@gabriel9062100 fr I've been listening to samito talk about the problems with 5v5. And that 1 tank does not work in ow2. because the game started at 6v6 and the problem was bap and brig making the double shield meta op. Suck and tired of pro players defending this 5v5 game I love flats but come on step it up and tell the game director how you really feel about the game. Not once did he say to him did you read up on any feedback on how the players really feel about the 5v5 playstyle and what can you do to fix it other than reworking certain heroes. They need to add more rank modes other than capture the point or push robot,cart. Make something that is hero/villian like. This is a hero game right. Idk gosh this game just feels repetitive.
@@XxDream_CasterxXI love 5v5 because queue times are much shorter now. I play DPS. I hated old overwatch since I would have to sit in queue for like 5-6 minutes. Now queues are 1-2 minutes/
@owen551 bruh alot of my support games are 5 to 6 minutes. Thanks to tank role being instant queues to suffer through counter switching. Gameplay wise its worse than 6v6, if supports aren't giving tank extreme healing you lose. relying on 1 tank to carry is way too much. Especially when people can counter switch, and also have spawn advantage.
The problem with tanks is the fact that they are affected by non tank abilities at the same rate as DPS and support.
Grannies melatonin dart probably shouldn’t affect the 7 ft German man in armor the same way it does a 100 lb teleporting woman
well, it also doesn’t. sleep dart was a pretty bad example imo lol because it actually lasts shorter on tanks
@@charKT-7461it still doesn't matter though, because that little bit of sleep is enough to get a Rein out of his charge and he can't block anti then
@@Shadowical Thats the point of Ana's kit, you punish bad charges and protect your team, plus the sleepdart has a 15 sec cooldown so it isnt that bad.
Imagine Winston alt-fire with a Sombra. Literally unable to do anything
I feel like just generalizing Tanks takes away the charm of playing them in the first place. 6v6 allowed for more unique moments and impact in neutral fights. And I liked playing rein because I could actually kill things and my shatter wasn’t useless.
I don’t want more reworks to tanks to make them feel better and stronger in 5v5 just add back the 6th person to give tank that much needed extra space and distraction that came with it
It’s an unfortunate effect of the 5v5 format. Tanks need to be generalists because they don’t have another tank to cover for them. As a Winston main, I often feel like I’m running into a brick wall whenever I play against a jobless team comp like hog reaper bastion. I have no way of outplaying the counters. As long as 5v5 is around, every tank requires more tools to deal with bad matchups.
Idk man. I used to hate playing Rein into other double shields. Opportunity to shatter a team was slim af. You could normally walk past a barrier but with 2 it’s a whole other ball game.
@@alexander2019. Take away the barriers then. Half the problem is that mitigation without counterplay has always been unhealthy for the game, whether in Support power creep for eight Seasons with 5v5 or the inconsistent Tank synergies in 6v6.
Even if making Tanks more generalist _is_ the answer, 5v5's format and 6v6's original off/main Tank design will inevitably drag down the game by rendering characters with the most stat-check potential the most viable. Giving every Tank this ability won't fix this alone, while they are the only role that has to account for incessant counterpicking and overreliance on team synergy compared to other roles.
6v6 in Overwatch 2 would provide a better spread of damage & health between Tanks as a role, while *the sustain/mitigation design of 5v5 implemented within 6v6* would open up Tank design for better designed characters and reworks in the future, away from OW1's oppressive synergies and OW2's counterpicking and more stoic Tank metas.
@@alexander2019. I agree but 6v6 as a format was better for tanks. Double Shield was a balance issue and orisa doesn't even have her shield anymore so
As a DVA main in high Diamond/low masters…eh…idk if she needs that. Frankly, I think the temptation of enemies being able to kill baby dva is part of the power of her ultimate. I will hide behind my bomb sometimes, and enemies will die, thinking that they can kill me. And it doesn’t really make sense for her as a character. I don’t think her ultimate is as weak as people say, honestly.
It's also SUPER STRONG during overtime on most maps, and contrary to what a lot of the playerbase thinks, ults should not always be a guaranteed kill alone, they should be setups for the kill!
@@mentlegen3887 also, sleeper strat that no one seems to know about: dva bomb is the best counter to wholehog. Place it on the ground (no boosters), and it can tank infinite dmg for you, while at the same time telling the hog to back away
@@josnardstorm matrix is the best counter to whole hog..
@@josnardstorm Except Hog just uses Breather and Tanks the Bomb and barely takes any damage
@@fat2slow yes, hog is able to survive the actual bomb damage. But often he’s not at full health, often you’ve burned some time off of the ult with matrix, and often you’ve gotten him to use hook on you as well. Plus his teammates have to flee, so he often doesn’t have the same level of support. All of these together make it counter wholehog
Wake up babe new ball man vid.
6:50 I’ve always wanted vortex to reach infinite heights
I wanted them to put it in the April Fools update and implement it in game like the dva squish
I'm still not sure why you would make an ability that pulls flyers downward unable to hit flying characters while they're flying...
Dont let this guy give roadhog any rework
I think one of the single biggest problems with Overwatch right now is the acceptance of terrible matchups as unavoidable. Obviously many heroes have very polarizing strengths and huge differences in play styles, but the fact that the balance team's solution to "Winston has a nearly unwinnable matchup against Bastion" is to just swap off Winston is terrible. Heroes are 100% the main reason why people play Overwatch. You can't get the experience of playing Lucio or Winston or Genji anywhere else, not even close. Therefore, it should stand to reason that we should try to minimize polarizing matchups so people can play the heroes they launched the game to play! Glad someone with a voice is finally bringing this concept up.
He almost broke the Ball Rework NDA for this vid!
Shhhh 🤫🫢😆
Never let this dude cook😅
im a diamond tank. i used to play rein and rein only. i would swap if needed, then ow2 came, i played a multitude of tanks up till season 3.. i stopped playing tank entirely. its not fun, i find no joy in being bullied 24/7 by the supports or dps. anytime i do play tank now, im doing it so my friends can have fun, while i suffer in silence
The visual cues for Zarya bubbles, and Dva matrix are very good. In low elo one of the main communication problems I see is that people tend to ignore voice chat. They dont join the channel, and sometimes, language barriers exist especially in Asia Servers. I play tank so most of the time I get to call the shots. Its mostly the tank who tracks the zarya bubbles. Having a visual indicator will further encourage my team to punish zarya who uses her bubbles.
APRIL FOOLS
I disagree that doomfist ult should have a red line indicator cause you can already know where it is by hearing it
Also the landing time is slow as hell compared to all the movement abilities in the game
A literal tank like Rein charging into a puny human dealing 0 impact damage is crazy
EGG BANANA SANDWICH UHHHHH
Omg I was looking for someone to also notice this disgusting abomination lol
I stopped playing tank this season. I had some pretty disasterous placements, but I really wanted to try climbing out of it. Problem was though, even though I felt I was playing well, I still kept losing games. I'm not sure if this is a tank specific thing, or a general matchmaker thing, or just me, but it often felt like I had very little impact. I was getting kills and trying to play smart as to not die, but suddenly my backline would be dead and there was nothing I could do about it. The fight seemed to be happening around me, and me and the enemy tank are just staring at each other holding m1.
I try to play mobile tanks to peel for my team, and within 0.2 seconds, the enemy dps has switched to counter me. Not to sound full of myself, but I can see in the gameplay that I'm better than my opponents, but I'm just unable to do anything about it. At least that's how I feel playing tank. It's like I have to be twice as good just to get a 51% winrate.
Anyone else finding it hard to climb on tank this season? I feel like it used to be easier...
Its cool coming back to this and seeing some of these ideas actually implemented.
Ive been a hardcore tank one trick since ow1 and i like other roles, but the feeling of inability to control feels so bad. The reason i play tank is because i control the game, i own the map. Also the fact that that goes the same for the enemy team makes such a tense rivalry between the 2 of you, its so fun, its like your team are just cheering you on while you are just 1on1 brawling with the enemy tank lmao. Same reason i plau top lane
realistically if you don't got any friends to play with its moreso both your team and the enemy team verbally crapping all over you for any mistake you make
I like Paladin's version of Shatter, where the character Raum crushes shields, destroying them and then still gwts the shatter on everyone behind it. I think a rein ult that at least shreds the shields and then stops there would do him good
Some great suggestions, but I disagree that Rein's problem is a lack of consistency. IMO his problem is his lack of mobility. He can charge in, but can't get out. Increasing his charge damage would do little to solve his problems - he would charge in, maybe get a pick, but then he'd just die.
I think the better change for him is REDUCING his Charge damage to the point it can no longer one-shot (but leave option open to combo primary) in favor of shortening the cooldown, or (my personal favorite) putting charge on a distance-based resource with more speed and control. This would mean you could budget Charge usage, giving you more options. You could use up the entire resource for more distance if you wish to quickly contest point, for example. You could use it partially to get in and skirmish, then use the remainder to get out. This would drastically improve his skill expression and make him heaps more fun to play! I'd love to see what everyone thinks about this!
If it doesn't take half a year to start up, sure. Then I'll take that.
Sounds fun I think it could keep the one shot if it keeps the wind up
It barely one shots now anyway
@@heyyou9903 Or better: Damage on Charge scales upwards with distance travelled. That way he can't just one-shot people back-to-back, but can still one-shot with Charge with the right conditions.
@@afterthought9538 yeah idk where my second reply went but that was the suggestion in it
Why are y'all being so generous with Reinhardt buffs like other people aren't already stupid strong
My thought has always been that tank cooldowns shouldn’t be able to be interrupted. That would give a lot of tanks (doom and ball specifically) counterplay to cc, but also has to be intentional. There’d have to be exceptions though, like cardiac or shout
Pig Pen as trampoline is brilliant, giving hog an ability to contest the high ground would be enough for him. Great idea.
Man, i miss the OW1 days where there were a lot of fun interactions, like mccree flashbanging above or below a rein's shield. It made the game so much more interesting and interactive
The hog change suggestion sounds fuckings horrible. You weren't cooking with that one
All of them are.
i love rein mirrors because there's a palpable feeling of interaction
and like you can make decisions between your tools
An elaboration on your idea for Zarya alt fire--let her charge up alt fire, consuming more ammo for increased speed / decreased gravity. This means a few things:
-she can't pressure snipers as efficiently as ram or orisa (good, she's supposed to be short range)
-trade off between ammo consumption and fire rate / ease and range of hitting a shot builds on dynamics
-original trajectory is intact and skill expression from old zarya players is maintained
Yeah, this feels like a better proposed change
This is just overtuning tanks and promoting powercreep. Trying to make a tank that doesnt suffer from 5v5 is how we get mauga, boring and overpowered. We want cool and unique tanks and tank synergy. no amount of buffs or overtuning is gonna fix what makes tanking suck, COUNTERSWAPPING. I dont know how a ball player of all people doesnt mention 6v6, like bro they took away your whole identity when they took away your second tank like how much ball content do we see nowadays since your second tank isn't drawing the teams attention anymore
They're not going to switch back to 6v6 before trying every option to make 5v5 work, so why not give them some options? Then when they run out of ideas for 5v5, they'll be more open to 6v6
They will never return 6v6 no because they don't want to but for queue times waiting 30+ minutes for a game is never a good situation
Man, it's so tedious hearing people blab about powercreep in a game that doesn't have hundreds of characters, or hundreds of cards.
Dude, it's not a problem tierlist adjusting 12 characters.
Stop trying to borrow problems from other game genres, that literally do not exist in Overwatch.
Much less trying to apply Open Queue logic to Role Queue, when that hasn't been relevant for 5 years. Role vs Role Balancing mostly doesn't exist. DPS/Support characters are not Choices for Tank players. And Balance, is about making sure an individual player has Choices that are Viable and Uniquely Interesting.
Genji and Ana aren't hero Choices for Tank players.
Choices you do not have, are not included in the Choices you do have.
But this is all giving you too much credit, because you probably don't even know what the formal definition of Powercreep and Balance even are in the first place.
You're just throwing around vibes-only echochamber gibberish that some content creator thought sounded good.
@@greyfalconow9467 What are you even saying? Why would you need 100 characters for power creep to even exist?
@@greyfalconow9467this is by far the dumbest thing I’ve read. Power creep can exist in any game that has multiple characters no matter the number of them
What are the best tanks to play solo?
roadhog, zen, roadhog you can heal yourself if your supports are bad, you can one shot combo most of the heroes if your dps are bad, and you have 800 hp
Thing with Ram Sky box vortex would be to code in making sure it does clip through the map geometry if he is under something where a player can be also on top of it like a tunnel under high ground.
This video is the most batshit insane takes and suggestions i ever heard i loved it.
plz dont say egg and banana sandwhich ever again
i cringed hard when i heard it. Glad im not the only one who noticed
What if Ram had to actively parry CC like how the Genji change in the April Fool's patch makes you click to crit when deflecting? Could add more depth to block because, right now, it's really not interactive and makes Ram's CD cycle a little boring.
I think abilities that require precise timing are probably really frustrating
there's inherent ping/polling issues that don't really crop up too often, but every genji main can tell you how maddening it is to hear your deflect come up and DEFLECT THE PROJECTILE and die to that very projectile because of ping
Timing based abilities are very cool but outside of LAN, overwatch can't handle it and i think it'd be overall bad to have an ability that feels like RNG to use
@@NonJohns very true - side note: I feel ow2 I feel is much worse for this general desync issue than ow1
I used to be a main tank player way back in the day pre goats era, it was really fun, having sometimes a buddy playing an offtank was enjoyable and now in ow2 it feels like if you as a tank fail in some point of the match you dont have someone to rely on. And its frustating most of the time when you and the enemy tank are basically playing a paper, rock scissors in order to have a better chance to win
My biggest issue isn’t kits or balance. It’s pushing. As a tank, it is literally your job to lead the charge and gain ground, but for some reason no one will follow you even if there’s a massive opportunity to take a point. I cannot count the amount of times where I’ve started a really good push that could’ve potentially won the game and everyone just stood behind a wall. That’s not saying I don’t make mistakes, because I definitely do. I just feel that other people have no idea how to play as a team
5v5 was a scam
6v6 will return by Halloween i promise
The 5v5 6v6 debate is a scam, just give it up already
@@cousinit1686 OW2 is the biggest failure in video game history. the 5v5 people were wrong. blizzard will be forced to bring back 6v6. you were wrong dude. get over it
My favorite case study is Roadhog - a unique playstyle screwed over by the switch to 1 tank, and then unfairly nerfed to oblivion because Kiriko's existence busted him to meta.
Rather than nerfing their favorite sassy, vacuous OP healer, they destroyed roadhog's one shot alongside all of his appeal.
Your "suggestions" are horrible, completely misunderstanding the entire point of his playstyle. Mobility buffs? Spread narrowing? He needs to be "flexible"? What even is this character anymore? Why is every tank forced to be this generalist hodgepodge? You played Hog to get satisfying one shots, to be a "one man apocalypse". This was fun even when he was far outside the meta. Irreversibly changing him to force his relevance to the detriment of his unique playstyle is everything wrong with overwatch.
Nothing more painful than every tool Hog used to one shot with still being there, but now he only does 150 damage with the combo, and this useless mine thing which just delays his one shot - removing all of the satisfaction but adding nothing - and making it impossible to kill anyone with a teleport ability.
Arguing against limited flexibility is an argument in favor of counter swapping a.k.a. ass cancer.
Lowering hog's damage will make him unable to pressure the enemy tank. He'll lose his main source of map pressure, his kill potential. A hog that can't get picks is pretty useless. He'd just be a slow fat source of ultimate charge that every dive hero will stomp on him every time where even if you get hooked, who cares if it does 150 damage lol? Reaper gonna have a good time with him, Tracers, Zen can get up close, Sojourn is gonna dive his ass every time and walk all over him.
Another small tweak i could see for doomfist is a damage to overhealth conversation after you use power block and meteor strike or increased overhealth gain after using an ability in the charged state since one of doomfist's issues is his squishy-ness during his passives downtime whenever you miss a good slam or you get bursted down when you dive in. This extra boost to his survivability can allow him to stay more active against teams with high bursts, though something like ult duration or power block threshold might need to get slightly changed to compensate for the bonus tanking
The thing is with doomfist at the end, you can hear him hovering above you theres a sound cue. it gets louder or quieter depending how close he is to you when he ults.
Tanks absolutely need to have the ability to more easily overcome their counters. People often say swapping is just "how the game works" and that "if you're good you can outplay them", but because there's only one tank, you're pressured significantly more than any other role by a counter.
If you play Widowmaker and you're popping off, the enemy team might try to counter you. Let's say they go Winston and dive you. That puts pressure on you to switch or outplay him. But you don't HAVE to, since there's another DPS on your team who can switch instead. If your partner goes Reaper, you STILL get a Winston counter without you having to change anything. Meanwhile the Winston gets hard countered and has much fewer options. They lose their advantage, and if they swap they lose the ability to keep the enemy Widow in check. They might be forced to a hero that they're not good at (and worse, they don't find fun), and their entire team will have to work around their composition shuffling while remaining at a disadvantage against the strong Widow. It's such a broken, unbalanced system. You can't balance tanks on a similar level as the other roles because they're already at a massive disadvantage in numbers. It would be okay to design tanks to be overpowered in stats and abilities, because they already have a natural handicap in the game's design, but the dev team seems so afraid to do so and tries to keep the tank role "balanced" stat-wise, only giving them small buffs in their stats, which is no where near enough and only makes the ENTIRE game poorly balanced.
yeatle's youtube content is so good. i really appreciate how well thought out, well explained, and concise his opinions are
I agree with all the changes but I want to ask what do you mean by letting orisa fly? do you mean like last years april fools for her javalin?
Wow. Super well thought out changes, I personally really like the orissa overheat mechanic on ability which makes total sense, adding some sauce back to rein and junker queen making then actually have skill expression.
the funny thing is the things that make tanks more interesting to play also make them harder to play (i.e you have to think more), which i'm not sure blizzard wants.
Since 2016 I have been waiting for a hitscan tank with no spread, it's the only role that just isn't allowed to aim diff
kinda crazy how good you are at these sort of meta analysis and problem solving type videos, they gotta get you in the lab frfr
God have mercy on @gloves_ow3107....
that first clip chasing a brig for 2hrs 💀
Thanks, Yeatle! Your ideas are the best I’ve ever seen. Hope some devs get to this video
Getting rid of tanks weaknesses does not make them fun. Working together with your other tank made it fun, regardless of synergy. Balance < Fun
See, here's the thing... getting rid of weaknesses isn't balanced either.
One of the best tanks in the world and the dude legit says that, in order to fix some of the tank issues, Orisa needs to fly and Doomfist needs to contest while ulting.
This video is the ultimate proof that being good at a game means absolutely nothing when it comes to balancing it or giving solutions.
I feel like those weren't really all that serious, he said his real Orisa changes and said Doom is basically fine
If Doom can't contest while ulting, Reaper, Mei and Venture shouldnt be able to contest with their basic Shift abilities
Love the video, i agree with almost everything, but one thing im really conflicted on is giving ball the ability to grapple out of spawn. I feel like it's partially (or mostly) to prevent people from swapping to ball so they can spin on the payload on the last point. On that note, i do agree that kiriko shouldnt have her jump available when she spawns either. Doom's a maybe in my book but it's hard to tell considering ive never actually played him outside of practice range.
One question bub: do you fry or scramble the egg in that egg/banana sandwich?
its already hard enough getting kills with doomfist ult when the ana you are ulting walks 2 cm to the right and negates 70% of my damage you want to make it so she KNOWS where im going to land??? the ult already does sound and you can tell who is going to get ulted from that, adding an indicator would only make it impossible to get kills without the cast time being lowered.
"ultimates should be cancelled on purpose or not at all" - i really believe ults should only be cancelled by other ults. hack sygma or jq out of ultimate? nah. emp them out of it? sure. an ultimate is supposed to be an all-poweful ability and yet it can be nullified by a cooldown. a basic hack/hinder/doom punch shouldn't cancel any ult, and matrix/grasp/javelin shouldn't absorb things like grav or tracer bomb or illari's solar ball explosion extravaganza. as a dva/sombra player i know how satisfying it is to get in those cheeky little plays, but i also know the frustration on the other end all too well. controversial, i know, but i'm all for an ult4ult economy
Something i thought about the other day is what if Reinhardt had the ability to place his shield while holding it. Like you walk into position and while shielding you can press primary fire to place it down allowing Rein play around the shield how Sig, Ram, and Winton can
idk about weapon jammer but i think a "punch the ground" boop on the secondary fire (with a slight stun) will really help against wintons most effective counters - shotguns
Honestly, all the changes that Yeatle proposed would make every tank immune to their weaknesses, and would eliminate counter swapping issues. However, by doing so, tanks would lose the unique qualities that make Overwatch a great game.
it would also make the game unbearable for dps and support players
I don't personally consider required swapping off one's main a minimum of once per match/round that great
@@denjii9you mean the roles that had a great time for the last 10 seasons? Good
It wont make Winston immune to his weaknesses, but it'll definitely enable another kind of issue to prop up for a more annoying version of dive meta. Rein changes wont make him immune to his issues either.
Or just go back to 6v6.
Seriously. Instead of adding this tedious bs like a 'weapon jammer' to Winston just let him play with a Dva so she can DM him from braindead Bastion spam.
@@Georgian502 yes
I don’t think you realize the devs will never go back to that. It’s not an option.
Just play open queue, you sillyheads. (Or make quickplay "flex queue" where two of any role can be played, so there's still 5 players, but the team can decide to have 1 tank, 1 dps, or 1 support).
I really do not think there will ever be a re-implementation of 6v6 any time soon.
Like flats was saying, we need yo try other options before we could even consider 6v6 to be the be all end all solution
for ram I don't know about not being able to move while blocking. I feel that the fun that comes from being in nemesis form is becoming this intimidating piece of machinery and walking through attacks while blocking makes you feel like an immovable object so I'd rather there be a slight movement slow when hit with cc that wouldn't last long or for when blocking for cc to be converted to damage or something else.
Also hear me out, what if Reinhart when he jumps and activates pin, he can fly at the speed of a normal pin but can also go up and down. And if we want to get really crazy give him a slam like ball so he can crush enemies pinned in the air or crash down to enemies on the ground
WHoa HUGE fan of that idea for zarya to some kind of visual indicator of being out of bubbles, I think it would be best for it to be really subtle tho. Making the voice comms less essential for things like that would honestly be pretty welcome
"imagine if winston bubble and rein's shield didnt have a cracking visual" the amount of flashbacks you just gave me
These are great suggestions. I really wish they would implement them, a couple were added recently but only the most inconsequential ones...
Love the ideas, very well thought out
I also think a cool Reinhardt passive would be: any damage with his swings would regenerate like 75 hp per swing back on his shield. He's so underpowered right now the least he can have is some way to get his shield back faster while remaining in the fight.
I think winston biggest weakness is enemy healing. weapon jammer could maybe work, but personally I think a specific damage buff for when enemy gets heal so monkey can still kill, but with 1 or 2 sec extra to to kill them.
Riffing on your Winston change idea: if you hold right click while holding left click, in addition to doing damage, it significantly slows down any primary fire ability of targets while theyre taking damage. It could come at the cost of draining Winston's ammo faster. The particle effect could look different to indicate. I think this would feel better to play against as it doesn't keep you from shooting entirely and it comes at a cost to the Winston. I think it would be fun to play too since you have to chiose what is best in any moment.
I feel like adding a system where you can choose which maps to play and not to play (like in cs2) would be really helpful. This would solve some issues where certain tanks or characters in general just are worse on some maps (for example zarya doesnt have much counterplay against snipers so banning junkertown would be nice for you as it is a sniper map).
I used to play tank 1/3rd of the time in OW, but since the switch to 5v5 I've played >20 rounds. The lack of playstyle flexibility (counterpick meta) and the increased pressure to perform perfectly (or get flamed, learning new tanks is impossible because of this) has all but killed the role for me, and no amount of rebalancing or reworking will change how inherently unfun tank is now.
Regarding the fun aspect, high skill ceilling and versatile abilities as well as movility are what make OW good,.
Most of the bad, or op characters end up in that spot, just cycle your cooldows in a specific because is the most useful to the team, stand there getting pissed on and you'll eventually win.
I like the dive metas because they're so much more skill dependent.
your winston change actually makes sense too, he literally shoots lighting, it could "overcharge" the weapon yk
I never watch you Yeatle, but after your State Of Ball video I keep an eye out for your takes.
Every single time you mention visual feedback for cooldowns, I got really hyped. To add to your points on DVa and Zarya, if Roadhog could have visual indicator for when he does and does not have hook would be great.
As a Doomfist enjoyer, I agree that more of the Tank roster needs his design philosophy. He is the best at playing into his counters, and unfortunately you're right that he isn't the same hero as OW1. I lament that he is one of the best balanced and fun tanks and that will forever overshadow the loss of his fighting game/combo king/martial arts background.
Winston getting a weapon specific stun on right click is interesting. It's a new effect that makes Overwatch more intertwined and complex.
Roadhog becoming much more consistent outside of Hook sounds perfect.
Orisa, I have separate ideas on, and I don't know if an additional cooldown (or overheat mechanic) for Javelin and spin consecutive uses is what she needs. Her ultimate needs to be spicier, so I agree there.
*I think Orisa would be much more fun and interesting to play, as and against, if the Javelin was her main weapon and didn't stun or Wall-Slam, and the ability was replaced with a vault. Then make Fortify do an AOE body slam when activated mid-air.* She gets mobility, loses her poke, and fortify becomes a more offensive tool.
The biggest problem I have with most of your changes is that the Tank roster is generally buffed, and this directly contradicts the issue you have in the beginning that "losing a Tank is the hardest team fights to win." Tank even in OW1 was the least played roles, and I don't think giving them more strength will make them more fun, just more necessary.
Zarya alt fire will be harder to hit consecutively on high ground enemies if we can't put it at their feet with the arc. Also, I feel like audio cues are enough for tracking bubbles 90% of the time.
I think hog trap should become a circular shield of sorts and be activated by clicking the trap button again. He should also be allowed to reload while healing.
Hiya Yeatle, this was a great video! Thank you for sharing your thoughts :)
I think a much more interesting discussion instead of "if we buff every tank, what would be the most ideal way to do it to help them against their counters" --- what would the discussions be if you aimed to keep them at their current power level, by making tradeoffs. What would you think would be fair tradeoffs that target the current power level of each character, to change them rather than buff them?
Like your ramattra example, where you pitched a fix to his issues but paired it with an interesting tradeoff. With some small numbers tweaks I'm sure it'd be possible to create a version of these changes which has a similar total strength to his current kit - but more evenly against and less affected by counters.
I'm asking this because some of these examples really turned into giant buff lists, like Rein for example - you went through most of his abilities and just suggested a flat buff to each. And I think the conversation of "this tank needs to be stronger" is separate from "all tanks need to be less affected by their current hardest counter matchups".
The visual indication on barriers breaking was a golden example. We need more indication like this to enable punishing windows
ok adding on to orisa ideas - what if ALL her abilities shared the overheat meter? this would change her into a hyper-flexible tank whose flexibility, endurance, and power are limited not only by actual cooldowns but by only being able to use 3 abilities but not shoot or 2 abilities and shoot, changing the way she applies pressure and giving players an extra thing to manage with more rewards for managing it! plus, makes thematic sense!
I think Mirrorwatch gave us a good example for how Ramattra's block should be handled. If you turn it into a small, personal shield, it not only adds thematic consistency between both his right-clicks, but it also helps to differentiate the ability from Doom's block. You can still give him the movement lock like you suggested, and it accomplishes the goal of having an option for CC in Nemesis form. I see it as an absolute win.
Overall I like a lot of the ideas presented in this video. There's room to tweak them, I think, but it's an example of good direction for an obviously difficult problem.
Ok so here are my tank changes in conjunction with the changes from the vid : Rein fire strike two shots if you hit both and let them burn for a sec | D.VA instead of what yeatle said about the ult of respawning she could stop the bomb to get back in the mech with maybe full/half HP and have her ult refined at 50 present and if stops the bomb and jumps back in she cant squish people so D.va can risk it to use the bomb and bunny gun or play safe | Mauga instead of fire and reload speed its low lifesteal like maybe 20 present and a small boost to fire rate no reload speed to make him a bit of both current ver Mauga and yetle ver
Why I play tank: personally, tanks seem to have (mostly) a kit that can be used for many occasions, kinda an hybrid but focused mostly on defence, the can defend allies making them an support or they focus on crowd control making them bit of an offensive protector.
I "just" find out that Soujorn glows bright when she is charged (kinda like zarya), great visual indicator so i dont just stand there getting farmed, they should do this kind of stuff more often as you suggested for dva and zarya bubbles