Throttle Bodies and a Standard ECU.... Will it work?
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- I’m trying to fit my bog standard Shitbox with individual throttle bodies…
Will it be easy? Or even work at all!
If you'd like to support the channel please check out the Patreon...
/ makingformotorsport
0:00 Intro
1:53 Strip down
3:28 How it works currently
6:12 Project Name
7:06 Design
8:30 Trial fit
9:50 Round up 
Авто/Мото
You should always have a 1/4" socket set, my neighbour gave me one for my 21st and I thought what a bit of rubbish, it has been one of the most useful bit of kit I have ever had, under seats, behind the dash, removing custom made radiators and shrouds, still have it, it is well used and I am now 62, every time I use it I apologize to Mr McKewan's long gone spirit,
This is a brilliant project, can't wait to see how the MAP turns out.
Hi there . Can tell you this works. I am running ITB'S on a 2.5 Subaru with stock ECU. Make vacuüm tank for the MAP sensor hooked up to all inlets with 10 mm hose. Also IACV is mounted on this tank.
TPS bracket made of 3mm aluminium plate and fit on 1 ITB. No OBD fault codes and running superb. Boxer engine is running even because split the throttle cable for balance adjustment. Engine is used in a Porsche 356 speedster replica.
glad to see someone else doing this, I did this with stock ecu and swapped to a 2.0 zetec e at the same time on the stock zetec s ecu
Just found the channel ... Love it so far. This is the exact kin of content we enjoy at the WrenchMine while we work on our own project cars. We love Japanese cars but auto-tech is auto-tech and the things you are teaching us apply to just about any car. Heading over to the patreon page now. Thanks for the great content!
Cheers buddy! Just looked at your channel… gotta love an AE86!
So happy I stumbled on your channel. You make this stuff look easy ... which inspires me to experiment and try some stuff on my own. Appreciate it. Subscribed and shared with some friends.
i have been wanting to do this forever! great video!!!!!!
Great project
i'm excited about this one. planning to do this for a while on my vauxhall c16se engine.
Cant wait to see the outcome of this project!
I'm watching with keen interest. You make that modelling and printing look pretty easy
My left ear really enjoyed your commentary!
Got so much respect for this project. Really inspiring me to make the set for my K24 that I’ve been designing in my head for years lol
Cheers bud, it’s nice that it’s just a side project rather than a daily driver… takes the pressure off 😅
Loving this...keep up the good work 👍
Another great and interesting project with the good touch of humor
fantastic work sir
Completely and Absolutely talented Lad, good all round knowledge, and thanks for you explanation, all makes more sense regarding sensors, injectors, and throttle body's, look forward for you next videos
Looking forward to the story unfolding. Got my printer at xmas & speed learned the fundamentals of F360. Working on the two plane balancer project and a replacement intake project (new plenum & single throttle body for old carb engine). Will need to do the hot end upgrade though, so I can print the CF Nylon version. Cheers for the inspiration!
:) big thumbs up for the cleaning of tools.
Great video dude, greetings from Germany!
Love this channel
Cheers buddy
As you have inspired me to get busy modelling a moto-ITB intake for my toyota 4AGE (cheaper than the 20v ones which also dont fit without an adapter) I've been pondering the same issue with the crappy MAP signal I'm bound to run into. If you combine the 4 runner vacuum signals into a plenum you dont change the fact that you are basically combining one decent vacuum signal and a couple of vacuum leaks together, resulting in a poor signal.
I've come across a rather nice looking solution that combines 4 MAP sensors and basically just takes the lowest signal of the 4 and passes this to the ECU. That way you dont get the averaging out of the 4 signals and actually pass on the strongest signal possible. This in theory allows you to run pure speed-density instead of having to mess with blended or pure alpha-n.
Since the cookie-cutter MAP sensor that is used on Speeduino and other DIY ecu's costs about 27 euro a piece these days I've been busy designing a PCB that uses comparable but 20 euro cheaper pressure sensors. I designed it to be able to switch between analog signal conditioning (diodes +opamp) and digital conditioning (with an AVR MCU).
Quite curious to see how far you'll get with the stock sensor and ECU. The map signal can be fixed, but it will still behave radically differently from a single throttle so I'm curious to see what the stock ECU will make of it.
Good content well done
Now I am invested in the this. Hopefully when I get my 1989 civic back up and running, I can start implementing this kind of ideas.
Really cool! Definitely excited for the next episode. I'm sure you are many steps ahead of me, but my thought would be to basically make a balance port connected by four small tubes to each runner. You could obviously incorporate them into the 3D print. You could then attach the MAP sensor as well as the IAC valve to a small standoff reservoir connected to the balance port. Hopefully I'm making sense, but it would give you an average reading for the MAP and would allow all cylinders to take air from the IAC. By keeping the connected passages small, you wouldn't lose the advantages of ITB, would still be able to idle, and would have quick response to the MAP. Good luck have fun!
I've considered doing this for a Lima (Ranger engine)...
Absolutely great and interesting video, can't wait so see if the oem ecu still do the job...and of course to hear that little mouse screaming
thats bad ass man !
1:57 minutes in and you've already won me over. That's an easy sub.
Cheers bud! Welcome along!
Fairly cool
Can't wait for more on this
Working on it now mate 👍
Awsome buddy !! Me and my friend are building a fiat Punto race car for as little as possible
Speeduino is being finished off by my pal and almost ready to go (i do the mechanical stuff )
We liked the home made bushes too were working on that but can't get the mixture to NOT set like concrete 🤣 it seems to dry very brittle
Anyways hope your well and look forward to the next part
I'm interested to see how you take stable vacuum source
But guess il have to wait 🤣🤷👍
‘We’ve come too far now’
I can’t wait for more!
Thanks for this, always thought it should work but not brave enough to try. Now off to EBay and sort out some itbs for my little Aygo!!
My left ear enjoyed your commentary :)
Haha…. And here’s me thinking I was getting better at this making videos malarkey… 🤦♂️ #stillanewb
Great vid. Hope the ITBs work for you. I suspect you'll need that speeduino as the next mod.
Oh, I think your absolutely right!
Now this is interesting!
I’m almost there! Just waiting for a bigger nozzle to arrive as my 0.4mm one is clogging like crazy with this cf nylon
I just found out your channel and I am looking forward to discover your other videos.
I am pretty confident the OEM setup favors low revs torque and your shorter inlet + ITB is gonna boost the higher end of the rev range at the expense of low revs tractability.
Assuming Fore have done their job well you may be right, but the more time I spend with this car the more value and convenience for assembly seem to be the only priorities!
Very interesting. Looking forward to the progress, and hoping you can somehow fool the standard ecu, but if not, I guess a speeduino is on the cards?
Good project. look forward to seeing the results... It would have been an astute move to do a dyno test before the tinkering, and another one after.
Spend money?! Haha…that’s just not me 😂😂… but seriously I probably will get it in a dyno sooner or later, but I did lay down some standard acceleration tests so hopefully we’ll se a difference there!
Great video as always! I found your channel through your videos on the mini and have loved watching them since. You're videos make me hope that one day I will fit a custom ITB setup to my car!
Also, just an FYI, it might be worth checking that you have your mic oriented correctly and that you have the levels set properly. Your audio is super crisp, but its a little inconsistent and difficult to hear at times, and also only was coming out my left headphone, haha!
Yes, I was having the same issue. I thought my cable broke
Yeah, first video with a new mic… and I thought I’d got the hang of this 🤦♂️😂
@@MakingforMotorsport Hey quick tip: In case that happens and you notice it in post, use fake stereo for the parts with bad audio just so there is consistency. Not the ideal solution but way less intrusive. Great video tho. Good luck!
you might need to do a alpha-n tune to get it to feed it more fuel at the same throttle opening...
or go old school and use something like an apex-safc piggyback to modify o2 readings and trick the car into sending more fuel
anyways keep it up! your content and channel is awesome!
Would defeat the purpose of this project of getting ITBs to run on a stock ecu but agreed that there is a good chance that maybe the only way to get it running properly. Any ways super curious to see how this goes.
If I remember correctly most ecu in case of map sensor failure go into a limp mode where they use only TPS (so kind of broken alpha-n map) and overfuel mixture a lot (which is beneficial in our case). I wouldn't be surprised if the engine had a hard time running with map sensor connected and started working nice when you disconnected it.
I have tried the same on a C14SE engine with the factory ECU using just velocity stacks and a MAP sensor. It was not working because it havent got any air resistance. So when i barely touched the throttle the pressure went down behind the throttle bodies and the ECU was sensing full throttle all the time, even when i was barely accelerating. If you have an airbox and a airfilter to have some kind of resistance, it could work.
It should work with al the components on it and a airbox. Dbilas sells throttle body kits for the opel c20xe. It works with the standard ecu, although it should be tweaked a bit to get the promised 25 hp gain.
also free up the exhaust pipe by ‘stream lining’ the catalytic converter with a ‘test pipe’ and higher flow exhaust please!! Great videos!!!!
“…the tiny, cute, my-1st-throttle body.” 🤣😂👍 EPIC!
Its interesting! Itbs with stock. Keep going.
I’m back on it bud 👍
Great content as usual! Hopefully I can help in someway. Long story short I data logged my car several times before adding ITBs and doing so I was able to look back at my Map readings and tailor my ITB vacuum setup with strategically placed vacuum check valves till it produced similar readings and behavior to my stock plenum. Worked so well I was able to drive my car on the same tune as stock but my idle and cruising was certainly more rich as my idle/ cruise kpa was slightly higher. A simple re-tuning of the fuel fixed that.
You could connect a manual vacuum valve and record stock reading and behavior for low tech version of a datalog. Other option that comes to mind is connect a AFR gauge on stock car and log that then with an aftermarket adjustable FPR you can tweak the fuel pressure to hopefully give similar results? Hopefully that helps sparks any ideas.
Cheers bud, plenty of things in there to think about…good to hear you made it work tho! Gives Project Siesta a shot in the arm! 💪👍
@@MakingforMotorsport Anything to hopefully help I really enjoy the type of content you put out. Really gets my imagination going lol.
I think it will work!
Also tell explain us why a air flow meter would me easier to convert into itb's.Tnx!
I did explain, but didnt explain how to do this with a MAF… I’ve got you covered…
When is the next video comming up? I'm eager to see those ITB's on the car and to see the solution with the map sensor. Great work, keep it up
Cheers Brandin, just working on it now, gonna be another week or so but it’s coming! 👍
A wise man once said,
Money can't buy happyness,
but it can buy you a set of ITB'S
You've got a really great chanel here, really loving the content!
For the scanning of the manifold i've used a standard printer scanner with a ruler next to it, fusion or swill even scale the image for you when you import it!
oh just a heads up the most of the voice over audio is only on the left chanel lol
That’s a wise man I can agree with!
I have used the 2D scanner before but this flange had “sticky outy bits” which meant it wouldn’t lie flat, then it’s easy!
And sorry for the audio, a year into making videos and I still manage to mess it up 🤦♂️😩
great video! also to get the right fuel to air ratio just upgrade the injectors to higher CC ones to get the accurate data measure how much air it takes stock by using a stand alone maf sensor and how much it takes modifed then divide the two data points and times that with your injector size to properly uprate your injectors and theoretically should line up with the data sheet from the stock tune
That would be a waste of time if you could set it up.
Besides the ford injectors are big enough as the same set are fitted to 1.4 & 1.6 versions of this engine which he can reuse as stated since they bolt to the head.
Also the bike injectors will already have a high enough flow rate in general due to the higher engine speeds they work with if he decides to use those instead.
@@mrzee1951 Agreed, I don't see injectors being an issue. ITB's are awesome, but ITB's alone won't flow enough air to need a monster injector. I hope David does get this working. I have heard of guys attaching a plenum to ITB's to make them work with a stock ECU, however this car doesn't have a MAF which complicates things...
@@Jason-fp7vi yes a plenum would probably improve things if you had a MAF, it might help with the MAP readings too perhaps? I wonder if the 1.4 ECU swapped in along with a MAF from that model could work - from what I understand the 1.25 had MAP's fitted instead on some models
@@mrzee1951 ho ho, that would be interesting. I would say that still fulfills "stock ECU" assuming it doesn't take a shit load of soldering to swap in the 1.4 ECU itself
Normally with itbs with map you need a vacuum canister and run a vacuum hose from every runner to it. That should make the pressure signal even enough for it to run. The canister you can print of course. Is the intake temp a separate sensor ?
Beat me to it!
Intake temp is part of the map sensor afaik
It's a TMAP sensor.
He could probably break out the IAT signal and add a branch to the signal ground.
I was gonna mention this. I was gonna just use a steel beer can (one of the big sapporo steel cans) and drill it for barbs. My cbr1000rr itb's i plan on using already have a map sensor plumbed to each throttle body, so using the beer can would just smooth it out more so my ECU can read it better. Actually, nice thing about the CBR1000RR itb's, is for my application (a 1990 acura integra) it's almost all plug and play as far as the sensors go. I have to change the plugs, but all the sensors on the itbs are direct matches for what the car already expects. Hell, even the fuel injector sizing is the same as what my engine already runs
Addictive ..... I'm in.
Additive eh? The little “extra” on the thumbnail has done the job! 😉😂
I remember running into this mystery myself when going through the wiring loom and ECU pinouts then comparing to the wiring diagrams in the Haynes manual - turns out the manual is wrong!
It's a quirk on some 1.25 engines that they ran a MAP instead of a MAF apparently, although it may share the signal wire to the ECU. Do you have a Siemens ECU with 60pin plug? Air temp is pin 9 and air flow is pin 50 if that's any use.
Cheers bud… yeah I got the book of lies/Haynes manual specifically for the wiring diagram (planning ahead) and I was amazed to see it only had one O2 sensor.
Naturally it doesn’t, it has 2 to properly monitor the cat, but that’s not what the wiring diagram says! 😂🤷♂️
No really tangled with the ecu yet but as you can guess… it’s on the list!
For modelling closer to the existing geometry i used photogrammetry to get a scan of the enginebay and the major parts (itbs, afm, fuel rail). That way it was very fast to spot collisions and use the space i had more efficiently.
If you have a cuda capable gpu you just need a bunch of pictures and let the computer crunch for a couple of hours ;)
Then its scaled based on a teken measurement. The programm i used is called meshroom. Thia could be a very interesting episode to make, to show other guys how to get scans for practically no money :)
Looking forward to how you solve the map sensor related potential issues.
I think in the end i wont run mine on the stock ecu and afm. But instead go to a kdfi (500€) to make it run right and hopefully get a performance benefit.
Should be relatively simple.
Quick and dirty way to sort TPS out would be to use a throttle cable splitter and keep the OEM throttle body somewhere on the car. A better solution would be to measure the 0-5v curve of the OEM Ford and bike TPS and see if they’re not a million miles away then just use the bike set up, if not adapt the Ford sensor to the bike gig.
Stock ecu will run SD algorithm until a certain throttle and rpm threshold so it will need a decent MAP signal, try a small accumulator with a line from each runner and stick the OEM TMAP sensor on that.
It will probably be on the limit of what the factory long term lambda trim can cope with when it’s done but you can always tweak fuel pressure to help that out
Hope it works dude would love to do same on a little suzuki swift or something
well if it doesn't work well once you connect everything together, just remember the bike carbs you said you have laying around. I'm pretty sure it's a 75 mm center-center gap, so it should fit your new printed manifold
I ran my 106 Rallye on itbs with no MAF or map sensor using the standard GTi Marelli ECU. I believe that the load was picked up by the TPS instead. Chip Wizards did loads of them about 10 years ago.
Some of those early Marelli systems were as good as fully mappable straight out the box… lots of good stuff to be done on them… and a 106 Rallye ? I am jealous!
@@MakingforMotorsport I'd better not tell you it's been replaced by a 106 maxi then no?
Grrrrrr…..
Nice video. If you cant alter the the lookup table maybe you can alter the signal from the sensor to make the ECU think it needs more fuel. Putting some resistors in to lower the signal voltage?
🤔 You've got my attention....
I'd try to put map sensor in chamber that volume is similar to original intake manifold. This chamber then be connected to each runner of itb's via hose. Of course iat sensor must be separated and put in airflow. Or force ecu in alpha-n mode by disconnecting map. Then you have engine fail light lit.
cool buget idea my frend use to have a hunday brio w itvs on stock ecu and he said that the mpg drop by half
Awesome little project! I guess the MAP signal will be quite turbulent and give high values and the stock ecu will shoot too much fuel and engine will run too rich.
Good project this. I have a set of AT power ITBs I picked up for my shitbox and I'm looking to ft them but there's a lack of info compared to turbo installs. Looking forward to this!
Iv fitted itbs to my starlet with good success if you have any questions
I'm really holding out for the speeduino install. That will be a gamechanger.
What ECU are you running?
Hopefully you won’t have long to wait!
AT Power, nice! I will be going through every combo, standard ECU, stand-alone ECU and then in depth tuning… stick around! 👍
For MAP use a vacuum manifold block and tube attach to each runner
Great video
Are you going to fit a wide and to log what’s actually happening with the fueling of the new setup and how subsequent changes effect it? Would be good data to see 👍
Assuming you'll need to do something to have a take off all 4 cylinders for map, im guessing it'll make no difference until resonance of trumpets starts to play. Then onwards it'll be lean in places where table dont know what to do. Good luck, im watching
The factory ecu in that ford CAN be tuned. But it's not near as straight forward as something like a speeduino or megasquirt. It takes a bit more hardware and some extra software, but it is possible. If you are interested I could point you in the right direction.
In my mind If you use a plenum it should work as you can stick the standard MAF and vacuum lines into the plenum... maybe :D
my new favourite channel this!
I’m going to guess that manifold pressure in intake is going to be wildly different than in ITB. not least of which ZX6 has 150cc pistons moving much faster over a much wider rev range - vs 300cc pistons in Siesta moving much slower over a narrower range.
I figure theres going to be a bit less vacuum measured per ITB compared to
full airbox, so I reckon it’ll run - badly, refuse to idle, will need a fair bit of revs and the AFR’s will be all over!
That said - its all academic until you try it!
Can you measure AFR? got a wideband sensor?
Someone can map that ECU I bet - it’ll be a vaguely common CPU arch to something else that has been mapped.
I'm running itbs with map sensor with good success just needs to be well thought out and set up
@@arran951 What ITB's are you running and on what engine? do you have a single map sensor in one of the ITB's - very interested to know how you got this going.
@@nickb2179 I'm using triumph tt 600 bodies on a toyota 1.3 4efe engine. Iv got 4 vaccuum lines one coming from each intake runner. They all go into a vacuum block which feeds a stable vacuum too the fpr the brake vacuum and the map sensor iv got a clean fuel filter in the vac line too the map sensor to smooth the pulses again before the sensor sees it
Dude great vid! Been busy with much the same problems. Curious how it's going to end up 🙂
Looking forward to this project. I’m interested in how you mount the factory TPS to the bike throttles.
So am I! 😂🤞
Wonder if the stock ECU will recognise the bike TPS?
If turning direction of tps is the same it will be no problem to mount a Ford tps for him - he will end up with the crazy 3d adaptor plate 😀 though i hope voltage readings will be the same for bike tps it would save some time
As long as the throttle position sensor on the bike electronically moved the same way as the throttle position sensor from the car, I would just use the one that bolted up OEM for the bike.
@@TravisFabel if it’s different I could just swap over the 5v and earth lines and it’d swap direction from standard… will probably keep the same sensor tho… but maybe not 🤷♂️😂
It will work on standard ecu but you may run into knock or be silly rich I have a 4efe starlet on itbs with stick ecu goes well
Looks like a cool project, but be mindful that the large intake plenum volume created a resonant air ram tuning effect at lower RPMs to make low end torque. Without the plenum, you have lost the resonant tuning, and the car will be very slow on the lower revs. I like your concept but be aware of the outcome might not give you a faster car. ---Doozer
Photographer here, have you ever tried processing your reference photos through lightroom? It has built in lens correction for most lenses that can be applied with one click.
I was thinking about doing something similar on my car! I really hope this does work, wont miss next episodes! By the way how do you know what itbs are right for your car? Just taking them from a bike with same hp?
You will need to chip the ecu or change it is my guess to properly tune it. Your fuel should be fine maybe install a fuel pressure reg and set the pressure.
Maybe you can hack the sensor to give the reading you want to get the right air fuel ratio
One vacuum source from single intake runner is going to be too uneven on low rpm that ecu cant make any sense from it. Need to have some kind of chaber where you can route vacum linenes from each cylinder to make the vacum signland cleaner. Alpha-N control would be best for ITB's
You will struggle to get a good signal for the MAP with ITB’s, might be worth designing an internal link port on each manifold runner behind the throttles to a common port for the MAP sensor on one end.
As someone that works on smaller vehicles alot... I would think YOU would use a 1/4 drive ratchet more often. lol
My 3/8” drive set goes down to 7mm, plus the Mini has been rebuilt from the ground up… it’s amazing how you can remember every single fastener size (but then I have had some practice at taking it to bits 😅)
Hey that ECU looks a lot like a 90's ford falcon E series ECU, maybe it can take a J3 chip as a result to tune it? looks like it even has the little cover on the bottom where it plugs in.
good video!
Cheers bud!
Is it gonna run, yes. Is it gonna be all dandy? Nop, the map sensor is gonna go a little crazy at higher rpm, and the ECU will probably have a hard time, but if it's also correcting stuf based om the TPS, maybe you will be alright 😁
It will work with a map sensor but the ecu will give you a wide open throttle map across 90 percent of the map. Your best bet is to run without the 02 sensor to stop the ecu always trying to get to 14.7:1
Half way through... Bahahaha maybe 10% complete!
Great video, is it that uncommon to have a 1/4 inch drive ratchet? i use them everyday:)
Crazy thought, would it not just work to parallel the bike throttle injectors to the car's injectors to sort out the air/fuel? It's a bit crude, but if you have a lot of air, you need a lot of fuel, and this uses the existing parts you have so not much more money, just more work.
The output (o2 sensors) will adjust the fuel flow, you should be fine.
On closed loop operation that should give me a hand…. But open loop WOT? 🤷♂️
air flow will be divided by 4 as there us is no more common entries so curious on how you will make it work
wanna use that fully? get a Mex or Brazil made 1.6 L zetec 16v, a fueltech cpu, 2 extra injectors(with signal doubling), ethanol NGK plugs, heads machined till 11.5 compression, polished ducts/angles/valves/springs... then you might use that part fully... if done the right way, 185hp is the lowest, 198hp is still possible but will need balancing and flywheel lightning.
First time watcher here. When's the next episode?
Patience my good man! Filming it now! 👍
If it did have a MAF sensor, what would be your approach? Been trying to think about this for a few days and am stumped. Everyone I ask shuts it down and says go standalone ECU with a MAP, but for my application they literally don’t sell any standalones.
Given homebrew installs of ITB's are 50/50 on here, i predict all the issues.
Things just seem to be a pig to get running, but like rotary bridgeporting, people want that sound.
I know i would...
Usually those kind of cars ends up sitting on brics on your bacyard or in the garden.. Like you moms "Garden Gnome")
Hi interested in how your going to do the fuelling 👍👍👍
I put Honda CBR carbs on my Saturn 1.9.
it didn't work because I use rubber elbows.
when I floor it it just sounded like shit.
My prediction: it’ll work, but not perfectly. So….you won’t be happy and will inevitably speeduino it.
💯 the plan…👍
Will you be making up a new system for opening the butterflies as bike throttle bodies aren't exactly smooth for a car engine as they're designed for a snap acceleration
hmmm wonder if this would work on my focus st170