'Remember guys. Most people buy an amp and a cable, but actually if you add another cable and a pedal you can drastically change your sound!' - Parallel Dan continues to tell a story about how he tried and bought an amp once and was disappointed when he got home and found he couldn't get the compression he had got while trying it. Better go back and also buy that compression pedal.
You know it's funny, after over 25 years of reading guitar magazines and watching RUclips videos how little attention is given to the bloody speakers in a cab. People obsess over string gauge, picks, the type of transistors in a pedal, pickup choice, wiring, fretboard wood, body type, valve types in an amp etc..........but rarely do people ever discuss the type of speaker or the construction materials of a cabinet. Thanks for this.
RickP2012 I guess it’s hard to lust over a speaker hidden inside an amp, compared to a sexy rosewood neck, an overwound Josefina pickup, a Dumble-inspired cascaded gain amp etc...But you’re right - the speaker is just critical to tone
Dan is always so blown-away thrilled by guitar sounds. Pretty much any guitar sounds. I'd vote for him for President of the World. That is a good dude.
Hey guys! I really love that you‘re changing the content a little bit (but not too much) away from pedals. I love learning new things about this kind of stuff and you are the best teachers! Thanks a thousand times!
Loving this video......and I have to say, there is a WORLD of difference between sitting at home / studio and playing live! For me (almost all my focus is live gigging) the 1x12" open back cab is just about perfect! I don't need loads of bottom end.....in fact, playing Vox amps as I do, there isn't a lot there anyway. What I need is to be able to cut through in the right frequencies above kick drum, very solid bass player, and a heavy handed keys player (so LOTS of bottom end there!) and yet not collide with the singers or sax player! The guitar sits perfectly in the same range as the vocals / sax, so I need to be there, and trying to compete with the low end instruments, so I find the 1x12" or even 1x10" in some cases, to be the perfect cab for doing this.
The 1x12's sounded better to me by an absolute mile! Each time you went through the 1x12's sounded amazing. I've always thought that for strictly recording purposes, a 1x12 makes so much more sense than a cab with multiple speakers. Would love to hear a comparison of the exact same speaker, but in a 1x12, a 2x12 and a 4x12. Great episode
You have attempted an impossible task. As you said, there are an almost infinite number of variables and translating that through RUclips multiplies it even more. Your reactions and opinions as to what is happening in the room and "the players loop" is priceless to this video. Lots of great info. Good on ya!
I feel like this show is exactly what I’ve wanted for years. And even when I get worried about what topics they’re going to talk about net they bring something new and it’s always great! I’ve learned so much from the show. Keep it going guys!
That Pedal Show I’m sure software is blasphemy to most guitar enthusiasts but an episode demonstrating plugins will definitely interest a new demographic 🤘🏻 love your videos, thanks for making such informative and entertaining content
@@ReidStefanMusic for me, that's just not what TPS about... They remind us of a better time when we were allowed to crank our amps loud 😂 Although they did do an episode on going direct into the desk... It quite literally didn't resonate with them.
@@ReidStefanMusic No, if you know about electronics you would know that a circuit can be analog or digital. Computers now can process the parameters of that circuit to give a true representation of what it was designed for. All amp, pedals, and whatever use a voicing set by the circuit design. All this can now be replicated digitally. People who are educated do have an advantage. Here it's not wasting money on 10 amps, 200 pedals, and 5 guitars by getting a quality multi effect IR processor especially if its connected to a PC. Flounder about life, I'm all set.
That open/closed back comparison blew my mind. I was perfectly aware that everything in the chain matters... but that sound difference to me is THE difference between "british and american sound" more than any tonestack... Thanks, guys! :)
Guys I loved this video! I enjoy seeing you guys mess around with various pedals, but there really is nothing better than you two imparting your vast knowledge to all of us. Fantastic!
Great show guys. I used open back cabs for years, but when I got my Mark 5:25 I got a closed back 1x12 Mesa Recto slant cab with UK made Celestion Vintage 30. And I was sold. What a HUGE sound from a small cab.
Great show guys! I think you perfectly hit the variables... and hopefully left viewers with the knowledge that you just have to go play variations and always consider the room. Mid show I was reminded of a very lucky purchase in my youth: I bought an Ampeg V7 head... a loud thing that wasn't in great demand, so I got it very cheap. Being young and broke, I bought the cheapest cab I could find which happened to be an extremely beat up, beer soaked 2X12 open back cabinet. Well, in short, it was a magic combination that in some ways I have been chasing ever since. [I sold it out of necessity about a year later] :( Anyhow, thanks for all that you do! For everyone who has read this far: Skip the speaker comparison videos and go plug into as much as you can until you find your sweet spot.
27:07 Dan has a trouser malfunction 🙈 excellent show guys, I know speakers are just one link in the chain as you've stressed here but the Creamback sounds consistently awesome to my ears.
I gig with a 1x10 Marshall cab a lot and love it. My amp’s a Quilter 101 that I keep on my board. Bigger gigs I use an old Marshall 4x10. But the 1x10 really kills it at smaller gigs.
Best cab i ever had was a late 60s Sound City 412 with Fane 122190 speakers. With SC head it was massive, suggest thatto pair with your Hiwatt Head chaps! now im just recording in a small flat in my old age so its either a 1X12 or IRs .
The cabinet is the "mastering section" of your guitar rig. It decides the overall dynamics and eq of your sound. It always baffles me how much time, energy and money people are willing to spend on tiny amp modifications and guitar upgrades... when they afterwards run it all through a random- or the same old "wrong for the job"-cabinet.
I really think that we don't consider it much because of how little we understand about it. If I have no idea what to expect from a particular cab choice, than I'm likely to focus on the things I, at least think, I understand. Which is exactly the case with me. We really need more shows like this to help us delve into all this so we can begin to grow our understanding of it. Also if there was more focus by the industry on speakers and cabs we would all appreciate them so much more. Right now it's mostly the pedals that are so much fun to play with, and the amps second. Then we get around to the vast topics associated with the guitars themselves, followed by picks and such last, and NEVER even get to the speakers. It's the fault of all of us.
Thank you guys for this episode. I have been an EV 12L user for the past 10 years in my Fender and Perkins Amps and Celestion V30 speakers in my Marshall and Soldano amps. I love the way that sounds live. In the studio I use 12L speakers most of the time in the studio though. And you guys have already covered all the “why’s” of it all. Great episode. I’m really stoked by this. Great stuff!!!!
Added comment from below-- In my home studio I have a variety of amps similar to you guys = AC30, Friedman Small Box head, 68 Custom Deluxe RI, /13 head with 2-EL84/2-6V6 switchable. So, except for high gain, most flavors. I recently got my 3rd 2x12. This one matches my Smallbox. A Friedman 2x12 closed back with V30's. Never cared for V30's but took a gamble on having to return if I didn't like em. ....I like em! When paired with the Smallbox it sounds very nice, even the cleanish Plexi Channel. Other 2x12's I own and love: /13 2x12 with greenbacks...Avatar 2x12 with G12H30 and Alnico Blue... However, if I wanted to record, the Friedman 1x12 Celestion M65 would be first choice. BUT to take to a gig the 2x12 with closed back IMO, would will fill the room better. Just a subjective note; in a small studio room, say 25 feet by 14 feet, a 1x12 seems best for me. For larger and with band 2x12 and for a club 2x12 or 4x12. These days it's hard to justify using up car/van space for 4x12.
Since you guys haven't heard the recordings when you're making them, you might consider doing a bit of commentary after you hear the playback and including that in the video.
That would be cool. A production delaying nightmare, but cool. It might make a reasonable podcast. Getting us all in the same room is harder than it might seem. We should work on that!
I thought of the logistic difficulties while I was typing the comment, but I thought I'd make the suggestion anyway. Even if it was only the occasional video, it could be quite revealing, comparing what you hear in the room and what the microphones record.
It wouldn't necessarily have to be immediate for it to be interesting, either. If you were to record 5 minutes of your thoughts on hearing something recorded from a past episode the next time you were together to record a set of shows, that too would be cool. Especially since you talk all the time about tones that work in a band. (And rightfully so). Any tone that works in a band isn't likely heard by the audience the way you are hearing them in the room you record in. They're more likely hearing it through mics, the way your youtube audience does.
Thank you guys so much for the content. I normally don't comment, but after watching this episode I made what I thought was a really fascinating discovery (I've been trying unsuccessfully to convince my wife of the true value of this discovery). Lately I have been playing a '63 Fender Bandmaster through a Z-Best closed-back cabinet. I'm a big fan of Hendrix, SRV & KWS, and I've been loving the tones I was getting with a strat and a Fulltone OCD pedal through this amp + cab, which surprised me because the OCD is not the first pedal I would normally think of to pair with a strat. I have not been as enamored of the tones I was getting with my tube-screamer style pedals, on the other hand (I have an Ibanez TS-808 & Fulltone PlimSoul at the moment). I happen to also have a Baltic birch open-back cabinet made by 65 amps that I haven't played in a long while. After watching this episode, I pulled it out and plugged it in. Before any pedals were applied, the sound was already drastically different. I immediately perceived more highs, quite a bit more crunch and bite on the top end, less bass (to my ear) and less compression under my fingers. After making a few EQ adjustments, I turned on the OCD - and hated it! The bass seemed out of control, and way too brash. I lowered the drive, tweaked the EQ, but still wasn't feeling it. Then I tried the PlimSoul, and it sounded incredible. Maybe that should have been obvious: SRV, who famously employed a tube screamer, used a lot of Fender combos that were open backed. To me, it was a huge eye opener, so thank you.
The best cabinet I have played through, and own, is the Matchless ESD 212. I have put many speakers in it, played many amps through it, and it allways sounds great. I also own many different cabs, open and closed, and none of them has that 'give me any amp'. Second favorite is the Two-Rock 2x12 open back. That cab sounds huuuuge, and the bass is thundering. But not all amps work as well with that cab. What I do know from experience, is that cheaper cabs, just don't stand up to higher priced cabs.
I have some "many" points to share, I'll do it one by one, some in one day, some in other day, other comments: 1- Yes, we would admit the speaker is the very last and most important tone filter in guitar (sometimes not just in the guitar, but in the audio: MiC and Speakers; Pickup and Speakers, in the Guitar World; 2-I really apreciate when you say the context of the volume X environment, as the variants acting on the same speaker. Since each speaker has it's own sweetspot. that's absolutely true. I feel very happy when you say you can take any nice sound with any of those speakers, since you just need to match everything to the context; 3- Sometimes isn't the tone, but the reliability. 1 x 12 is nice, but in the real world, it's safer go with a 2 X 12 to the road. if, by some reason one speaker fails, you can make it win the remaining speaker, just like you're using a spare speaker. Just check the right output impendance of your head to the (damaged speaker) cabinet. A couple of 16 ohms use to be wired to 8 Ohms. If one speaker is down, you must connect the cabinet in the 16 ohms output of the head, instead of the 8 Ohms. 4- The 8 ohms speakers work well in open cabinets, and 16 ohms in closed speakers, instead. I was using a 16 ohms Celestion GT-12-75 16 ohms in an open cabinet and it sounded like a tragedy, very harsh. It sounds amazing tight on closed backs. 16 ohms are great on Tube Amps. 5-Some close cabinets - as much I use to prefer them than the open back ones - tend to be too much straight forward sounding, The open back use to spread the sound wide on the environment (with the pros and cons you can get of it: great on some rooms, bad on open stages). So, if you like to walk in the stage, the open back will cover a wider area, but, if the the closed cabinet is miked, you can ask the sound technicians to spread a little bit of your guitar in the stage monitors, to cover the "deaf spots".
To me as far as speakers go I believe the ceramic vs alnico magnets and actual speaker size make a big difference in how it sounds to me. I also think "tone" aside I like Pine>Ply>MDF for my cabs mainly for looks tbh. I like a nice bare oiled up wood speaker cab. Kind of how I like a nice transparent finish on guitars with nice looking wood. It just looks good to me.
Speakers and cabinet sizes are two huge tone variables that a lot of people don't understand. My 1x12 Swart has a Celestion Creamback in a very narrow combo cab. A lot of people think it sounds "boxy" but when I mic it in a band setting, the narrow, cutting midrange sits perfectly with the drums.
I love education episodes like these. Keep them up, boys! I am also curious what you guys think after listening to the audio of the amps in the recording, vs. being in the room. I know that on several tests I felt that the 2x12 sounded best (this could be due to bias as my amp is a Reeves Custom 50 PS 2x12). Cheers!
This was a timely show! Historically I have used 4X10's cos just love the punch, but I've been trying to reduce the weight of carrying equipment so went and bought the Orange Rocker 15 which has a 1X10 open back. Sounds great but can get boxy in the wrong room. Last night I added a 1X12 closed back extension cab because of an upcoming gig. OMG the difference was astounding. Yes its louder but with a tele bridge pick up all the gaps in frequencies were filled. Bass was strong but not overpowering, highs were there without being grating and the midrange full. Interestingly though the neck pick up sounded dull compared to the 1X10 on its own. By the way first gig with a new singest tomorrow so wish us luck :-)
I use a cab with Celestion 15 inch with three 4 inch speakers with my Fender EC Tremolux. Sounds full with incredible low end without losing the high frequencies.
I have an Avatar 2 x 10 combo cab(can either be closed or partially open) with one Celestion Alnico Blue and one Alnico Gold. I don't know why... but it sounds awesome!
Loved this episode for a number of reasons, not the least of which because I've just started getting into impulse responses. As a gigging guitar player that also does some front of house work I've found that bad speakers/cabs sound bad no matter what you do to it, but a cheap amp into a good cab can sound pretty good. And that much of the sound is in pushing the speaker the way it wants to be pushed and getting the mic in the right spot. All the fancy guitars and 100 watt Marshall heads and mogami cables in the world won't help if you're using the wrong speakers/cab or if your mic position is wack. what I take home from this episode it's that 1 - different speakers sound different 2 - different cab designs sound different 3 - small cabs and big cabs can both sound great 4 - there's no real "magic combination" beyond finding the right cab that works for you and for the venue you're playing in
We would agree Sven - thanks for sharing that. Everything matters - we keep saying it and one by one people are getting it! (It’s not just us, but y’know...) Thanks for watching!
Cheers from across the pond! I play in a 70's/80's cover band (classic/hard rock) and we proudly still perform with Marshall stacks, ours have the G12T-75's (granted we only run them all live where it makes sense to do so). In our area we see a lot of backline disappear to become small combos and DI load boxes, which makes easy load in load out, but there's an intangible, palpable feeling that comes with playing in front of the Marshall wall (not to mention how awesome a wall of cabs looks). It's well worth the extra setup to my ears, it does take a bit of restraint not to crank them and blast the front row into oblivion, but with effort they can be dialed in at lower volumes..
In a band context, IMO a 1x12 is a bit boxy...leads are okay but overall, especially if you are the only guitar player in a 4 piece, 2x12 is the best starting point IMO.
17:33 that is without a doubt, one of the best sounds you guys have ever had. For me, it's tied with the Harmonic trem + drive as well as when you played a fender, vox and marshall at the same time. You guys kick ass!
I learnt so much about speakers, cabs and mics from using different impulse responses. Needless today it has opened my eyes to speakers that I had written off and helped me branch out from the good old V30
Look up Eric Haugen on RUclips , he is in my opinion the best guitar teacher out there on RUclips, his lessons are aimed at intermediate and above level of player, linking chord shapes (different inversions, extended chords etc) to scales and the caged system with the emphasis on helping you think for yourself. Look Eric up, I'm sure that you won't be disappointed .
Grant Dickey, your welcome, hope you enjoy, Eric is the man .I'm just learning a Hendrix version of Mack the knife, I never would have thought that I would be interested in Mack the knife, but hey when it's done like Hendrix it takes on a new life. All the best Karl
Hi from Jan 2022. 4x12 all day :) I'm 54 this year, with a busted shoulder and back. We have wheels on ours, no lifting, it slides out of the car and back in, just push it, too easy. And the Aussies won the Cricket 3-0...
My setup Two open back 1 X 12" cabs in Stereo with different speakers and powered by 2 Amps. For example a bright Jensen on the left and a darker Celestion (Creamback or something like this) on the right. Great !!!! If I got more space on the stage I use two 2x12" cabs in stereo or sometimes, if I go crazy: in the middle a 2x12" with mixed speakers Jensen C12N and a Celestion Vintage 30 and on the right and left a 1x12" with different speakers (mostly an Creamback and a Jensen Blackbird 40, powered by 3 Amps 🙂 I got many different cabs, in different sizes. From Mini 35x35c25 cm to oversized cabs. Depending on the music and band I play with. For Jazz I use the min cabs, for modern stiles like Jazz-Rock-Fusion I use the bigger cabs, mostly, like I said two 1x12" open back. This works great for me.
Gotta add something in response to the 9:00 minute mark. For years Infinite baffle usually meant there is no back to the cabinet at all. Some very high end home stereo speakers use this design with the rooms walls essentially completing the “cabinet”, as do car stereo speakers out of boxes, where the trunk or door becomes the cabinet . A Marshall 4x12 is a full sealed, or acoustic suspension design, which is definitely different. The third design is a ported enclosure, which can come in a variety of styles, but is typical for bass cabs, and some guitar cabinets like the Dr.Z and Mesa Boogie, which use a larger, elongated port designed around the specs of the particular driver. Referring to both no-back and completely sealed enclosures with the same term seems needlessly prone to further confusion.
18:37 - To Dan "it's like having a bass guitar" - you should try my 135 watt vibrosonic with the 15 inch speaker =D that thing can kick out octave down like nobody's business
SOME INFO FOR THOSE LOOKING FOR CABS: I'm watching this video because I wanted to check out 2x10 cabinets. What I found in your testing is that the 1x12 with the Celestion Creamback sounds incredible, the 2x12 with V30s sounds great, too. The 1x12 with the Warehouse speaker didn't have as much detail, but I'm sure it's a great speaker for mid range, overdriven sounds. I think the 2x10 cab didn't sound very good, which is surprising. I think 2x10 cabs sound great with clean Strat or Tele sounds, or country. You get a lot of detail and punchy lows, very tight sound. And you have to get the right speakers. I had a Fender Vibroverb reissue with 2x10s - a Celestion V10 paired with a Jensen P10R. It sounded amazing. The V10 provided a tight bass response and the Jensen got the Fender tone in the high end. They both provided variations on mid range that combined together, sounded very strong, not overbalanced to mids but filled out evenly from top to bottom. I now have a 1x12 open back with a UK Celestion V30 that's a great all around speaker, with lots of detail. I can play heavy rock with it or country, or clean, and the V30 handles all the styles well. The cab it's in is a TT Cab, made in Germany, convertible to closed back. Very punchy, perfect cab. I had a Marshall 2x12 cab that looks like the one under your Marshall, with Heritage reissues in the 2061c cabinet and it did not sound good. I changed the speakers to Celestion gold alnico and the cab still didn't sound good. Very boxy. You can check out Johan Segeborn's reviews on these types of Marshall cabs. They just don't sound good. I've had a Mesa 2x12 Rectifier cab loaded with Celestion V30s and that was very bassy. I now have a Dr Z Z-Best 2x12 that can sound really huge, or if I load up the port with sound foam, it sounds a little tighter and great too. This cabinet is way better than any 2x12 configuration I've ever had. I have a Z12 (eminence designed speaker) in the bottom and a Celestion G12 H30 on the top. Hope this helps. Has anyone found a great 2x10 cab? And what speakers do you prefer?
2x10 cuts live imo ,sometimes that low frequency isnt always needed in a band and its more immediate attack,2x12 has more squish. ,Megadeth or Albert Lee,I will take both :)
I ran two Zilla 2x12 Fatboys with V30's and Jensen Mods. That's a massive trouser shaking sound but the bass is a bit hard to tame! I've down sized to 1 Zilla 1x12 ported cab with a creamback. That with a Mesa Electradyne and a King of Tone is just the most amazing rock crunch. Gotta love Paul and the guys at Zilla. Just the most amazing work and lovely people to buy from.
It is!! Sadly overlooked by Mesa enthusiasts as it just doesnt have enough knobs and dials - but it's an awesome amp, and that reduced tweakability makes it perfect for pedals!
Thanks, guys! Great show as always! Please do a show on amps with power tube switching - 6L6 vs. EL34, pentode/triode/single-ended modes, preamp tubes swap and how all that affect your tone.
This is fascinating! The constant reminder about variables rings true. How a closely-placed mic picks up a speaker versus how the speaker/s sound and feel in the room makes it difficult to parse what exactly is being heard from one cab to the next. That said, y'all did a great job explaining what you heard and felt, as always. I did a blind cabinet comparison on the SpectreSoundStudios channel, and with an amplifier that shares almost no characteristics with my own amp, the cabinet I ended up liking best was the V30 Mesa 2x12 - the same one I've owned (though only had the opportunity to play through on and off) for ten years. The one I ended up disliking the most was the oversized Mesa 4x12 (though speaking of variables, I don't know whether it had the same speakers as the 2x12). And I bet that 4x12 is fun to be in the room with, but the mic told a completely different story to my ears. As for this video, I think my favorite was the Creamback 1x12, but it's not as though there was a bad choice in the 12" speaker category. I'm finally moving into a house soon and look forward to testing cabinets more...thoroughly (loudly). And I like digital recording rigs and IRs and all that, but I've missed that *fun* of plugging into an amp and being in the room with it. (Here is the cabinet video I mentioned. It's metal, so it probably isn't for everyone, but it does illustrate the difference the cabinets and construction make.) ruclips.net/video/ORX8PzQTi5A/видео.html
I use a Marshall 1960b and I love it to death, never owned a different 4x12 but yeah, I had a moment yesterday when nobody was home and I cranked up the orange micro dark through it and it sounded glorious, that bass like he talks about in the video is just so satisfying. I’m about to build my own ported 212 in the next month or two. Wish me luck!
Great Video. very informative. I put a G12-H 75 Creamback into my Marshall DSL401 (2008) a few years back and it changed it so much for the better, sounds lovely and has that heavy magnet oomf that sounds so great for classic rock. Also very articulate.
Great episode. I run a '68 plexi into a matching '68 4x12 with greenbacks, and a Hayden mini mofo into a 2x12 loaded with '76 G12H. All set up wet/dry thanks to that pedal show! I mostly play pub gigs... and drummers hate me :D Thanks guys!
I LOVE my 4 x 12 cabs. I have a V30 loaded one , a G12T-75 loaded one and another G12M-25 Greenbacks loaded one. But I hate carting them around so I have a few 2X12 cabs too homemade ones with V30's and a greenback loaded one. Plus a 6 x 10 Fender cab that I love too.
Hendrix used a 4x10 to record Voodoo Child - saw it in an interview with Eddie Kramer. I prefer a 2x12 to play live; the Traynor Dark Horse cab has tilted Celestion greenbacks. Use a Marshall head tho.
Hendrix used a 4x10 for everything. Hes pretty famous for it.... After all he did have 2 people holding his 4x12 cab for him at Monterey. People dont understand that back then they didnt have 5000watt PA systems. That front line was it! Thats all they had.
'Ph-Ase makes a Mick think things over....' One of your best for sure. Lots of useful explanation and self explanatory demo evidence. Great job gents👍👍👍👏👏👏.
I use a Marshall 1960A cab with a JCM 2000 100 w head @ 4ohms. Sounds great ! I also have a 1990's Mesa Boogie 4 x 12 half open with Celestion G12H speakers and half closed with Altec 12's. Best of both worlds !!!
Mick - what’s the smallest cab I can get away with that will sound ok... Me - how many 412s and Amps can I run at the same time in a standard bedroom 🤔
I’ve gone through a ton of 2x12 cabs and, surprisingly, settled on an EVH with one 70th anniversary speaker and a heritage large magnet Greenback with the 55hz cone. It works for everything I’ve thrown at it.
I love you too Mark and Don ;) I don't play it too loud very often. I don't want to end up with tinnitus. I use a dB meter and a table with amount/exposure time and when it becomes damaging. But when I crank it for a bit, it feels amazing.
Great episode. Two things I noticed: 1. Smaller cabs can actually have more bass when close micd than when just listening to the room sound. A 2x12 can sound fatter than a 4x12 that way. 2. Careful when handling the massive magnets on speakers while wearing a mechanical watch.
How drastically does the impedance change from closed to open? Im just asking because yesterday I temporarily modified the rear panel of my 112 Orange cab (60w @ 16ohms) from closed to open (after removing the original rear panel I added two separate less-wide panels top and bottom with a space in the centre. I modified it so i could get the celestion vintage 30 to 'breathe' and try and see if it made it sound smoother as an open back - before considering buying an alternative to try. The amp is an old Vadis 60watt tube head, its really loud and clean and has a lot of headroom.
Going in, we all know different speakers will sound different. However, the closed back vs open back demo was eye opening, it made just as big a difference! Great show as usual.
Theoretically, whenever you double the speakers - you are getting a 3 dB increase in volume, mostly in the low end. There are variables that will eat away at this figure. But as you go from 1 speaker to 2 speakers, you have a 3 dB increase in volume, double that again and you have another 3 dB. So by the time you have a two 4x12 speaker cabs on top of each other - you have a total of 9 dB increase in volume, theoretical maximum, over the single speaker. Again this is mostly happening in the lower frequencies like 500 Hz and below. But this also improves the efficiency of your amp, you can dial out more and more bass frequencies and shift more of that energy in the power section over to mids and highs. If you don't believe this is true - try your little favorite 15 watt combo amp and use it as a head to a stack of two 4x12 speaker cabs - and it will be a monster in volume!
You get a 3db increase no matter the efficiency of the speakers? I do love that natural chorusing sound of 2 or more speakers in a cab but it keeps getting louder and heavier.
Hi Guys. Another superb and thought provoking show. Proud to wear TPS tee shirts here in Northern California, a bike ride away from the birthplace of Mick's Mesa Boogie. The tees do spark conversations. I sometimes wish I could deeply study each topic before squeezing the trigger on purchases. Easier to A-B some things than others, especially cabs. I can A-B my guitars, for example, and some pedals. But for amp and cab I studied as much as feasible and leapt faithfully for Morgan AC20 Deluxe and his Chameleon, which you heard at NAMM in 2016, I believe. It's a 1 X 12 cream-back in a cabinet built with great attention to air channeling. (iso cab I use mostly without the isolation clam shell.) Guitars are Heritage 335-style with Lollar P90s. Stunning. Heritage Les Paul-style with ThroBak KZ115s and bumble bee capacitors. Differently stunning. Really amazing. Pedals to fool around with or leave off, depending on mood and need for variety (one of the reasons we play, right?) are D&M Drive, Hudson Broadcast, MXR Carbon Copy Deluxe, Strymon Blue Sky and Morgan OD and MkII Fuzz in the beginning. Again, just for fun. All in the loft of my barn. Yanks will understand this to be a "fort". No one can possibly match Dan for rapturous enthusiasm but these set me on the same path. But the point here is, while not being able to A-B cabs once purchase decisions have been made, we hear a sound for inspiration and then tweak what we've got and adapt our playing and pots to produce the tone we're chasing. It's even down to pick selection. Thanks Peter for Prime Tone 88s. So I've got a perhaps wacky combination of elements but still find something to chase. And with unbridled joy in the process. This program was immensely educational. I wonder how feasible it would be to compare pickups. Knucklehead, ThroBak, Lollar, Seymour Duncan... Thomas Gray and your friend Graham Coxon seem extremely impressed with the Knuckleheads. Thanks again, guys. Sorry for length of this post. -Greg
1:04:10 Yes... I know all the theory about impedance, the way the amp react, etc...however, I generally always used 8 Ohms cabs because it was convenient. Generally most amp head have 8 Ohms speaker out, so it's easier to mix match heads and cabs. However, the more I dig into it, the more it seems like for a lot of people, 16 Ohms cabs seem to sound "better"... Unfortunately, there's so many variables that it's difficult to even be able to find a place in store, etc... to even compare two identical cab with the same speaker where only the impedance would be different. Since you have two Zilla Custom cabs here, it would be interesting to do a follow up video to have a 8 ohms an a 16 ohms in each cab and compare them to hear the sound difference and then the feel difference by the impedance difference only.
I think you can split hairs infinitely Phil. In theory. For us it’s more about the broader brush strokes. If you’re down to worrryjg about whether a 16 or 8 ohm cab sounds better, you’ve reached a level of consistency and other gear harmony that we’ve never even seen. For example, a quarter turn on one EQ knob on one pedal will have a 5x effect of that speaker difference. On the other hand, it all matters. So try it!
Thanks, you pretty just confirmed what I thought so far and why I never bothered much about it and why I preferred to stick to 8 Ohms so far (since it was the most convenient... well, at least for me). But somehow, I was still wondering because, for instance, every time I hear some V30 (2x12" or 4x12") and I like the sound, it happens to be 16 Ohms... but there's always so many other variables that I couldn't really A/B compare them properly.
If the amplifier has multiple output impedances the 16ohm would likely be using the entire secondary of the output transformer where the 8 ohm output would be a tap in the transformer so you wouldn’t be using the entire winding even if you do have an impedance match. I recently had a 1965 Bassman on the bench which has 4ohms output and I had it plugged into an 8ohm speaker load. After troubleshooting the leaky caps etc I then put a 4 ohm 25w resistor in parallel with the speaker and the amp sounded different and much better. The moral to my point? Not sure really, other than having an impedance match sounds better than going 8 ohm output to 16 ohm cab or 4 ohm output to 8 ohm cabinet.
Yes, matching impedance makes sense... but regarding the transformer winding use, I'm not really convinced to be honest. I can understand how it can have an impact (and it surely does), but I think we're spliting hairs here too. But I might be wrong thought, as said, that's the whole reason for asking a compare between 8 and 16 ohm. If somehow can come with a proper A/B compare that could change my mind, I'm open to change it.
Phil Smith I would agree about tonal differences in the whole winding version tapped winding. I was really surprised when I simply put the resistor on my 8 ohm speaker load when working on the Bassman and how dramatically better it sounded. I think (opinion) the actual impedance the transformer sees is more important than how much of the winding is being used. I’d love to hear from tech’s and amp builders to see what they think on the topic.
Wow! Thank you so much for this episode. What you talk about here is why I recently went for combos over head and using venue cabs for gigs, and then STILL needing and eq pedal because the sound isn’t consistent across rooms.I guess i would love more advice on how to achieve a consistent sound across rooms and venues - to the extent possible. I know “get a smaller amp” trick already so the volume is more of a constant.
Another mega show guys. After 30 years in the business, I still learn heaps each week. One note about speakers. When I was gear editor at Guitar One, Eminence sent us two 4x12 cabs filled with four different model speakers each for a total of eight models. They coupled it with a switching system that looked like something our of a cyberpunk movie. I played the same head and guitar through each of the eight models in rapid succession and I was gob-smacked by how different each made the amp sound. Lesson learned. It is too bad that music stores don’t have guitar speaker rooms, like their recording monitor rooms where customers can bring their amp and plug into a variety of speakers. Of course, as I just learned from you, placing it in their cabinet will further alter the sound, but it might be better than buying totally blind.
Thanks Michael - assuming it’s Michael?! /0) There a great shop in Germany - Musik Productiv - that has just such a switcher. It’s utterly amazing. Any cab, any amp! Hope you’re well man. :0)
Yeah it's me. Doing great thanks. Loved the "just for the halibut" line. There is a shop in Nashville that has a few different speakers in different cabs that you can try, but even better, they will install the speaker in your combo while you wait and let you decide.
![Let’s Talk About Fender Strats [Sounds, Bridge Setup, Pickups & More] - That Pedal Show](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-ndkUzSGKNA/mqdefault.jpg)
In a parallel universe this is the "thoughts on pedals for guitar amps" episode of "That Speaker Show"
What about in a series universe?
'Remember guys. Most people buy an amp and a cable, but actually if you add another cable and a pedal you can drastically change your sound!' - Parallel Dan continues to tell a story about how he tried and bought an amp once and was disappointed when he got home and found he couldn't get the compression he had got while trying it. Better go back and also buy that compression pedal.
Would the added gain be worth the loss of clarity?
Would that make the show 2 hours long or 30 minutes?
lolll that was a really clever comment, took a few seconds for me to get it lol
You know it's funny, after over 25 years of reading guitar magazines and watching RUclips videos how little attention is given to the bloody speakers in a cab. People obsess over string gauge, picks, the type of transistors in a pedal, pickup choice, wiring, fretboard wood, body type, valve types in an amp etc..........but rarely do people ever discuss the type of speaker or the construction materials of a cabinet. Thanks for this.
Speakers are perhaps the most important variable. Perhaps.
Absolutely, and it's so obvious when you come to think about it. But it's probably the area I've paid least attention to.
And yet the speakers are the only part that MAKE SOUND. Go figure.
RickP2012 I guess it’s hard to lust over a speaker hidden inside an amp, compared to a sexy rosewood neck, an overwound Josefina pickup, a Dumble-inspired cascaded gain amp etc...But you’re right - the speaker is just critical to tone
full video ruclips.net/video/hYbgeTbLmfA/видео.html
Dan is always so blown-away thrilled by guitar sounds. Pretty much any guitar sounds. I'd vote for him for President of the World. That is a good dude.
Me too! Mick here. He’d need a bloody good secretary though. Not me.
Hey guys!
I really love that you‘re changing the content a little bit (but not too much) away from pedals. I love learning new things about this kind of stuff and you are the best teachers!
Thanks a thousand times!
Loving this video......and I have to say, there is a WORLD of difference between sitting at home / studio and playing live! For me (almost all my focus is live gigging) the 1x12" open back cab is just about perfect! I don't need loads of bottom end.....in fact, playing Vox amps as I do, there isn't a lot there anyway. What I need is to be able to cut through in the right frequencies above kick drum, very solid bass player, and a heavy handed keys player (so LOTS of bottom end there!) and yet not collide with the singers or sax player! The guitar sits perfectly in the same range as the vocals / sax, so I need to be there, and trying to compete with the low end instruments, so I find the 1x12" or even 1x10" in some cases, to be the perfect cab for doing this.
The 1x12's sounded better to me by an absolute mile! Each time you went through the 1x12's sounded amazing. I've always thought that for strictly recording purposes, a 1x12 makes so much more sense than a cab with multiple speakers. Would love to hear a comparison of the exact same speaker, but in a 1x12, a 2x12 and a 4x12. Great episode
You have attempted an impossible task. As you said, there are an almost infinite number of variables and translating that through RUclips multiplies it even more. Your reactions and opinions as to what is happening in the room and "the players loop" is priceless to this video. Lots of great info. Good on ya!
Cheers Ed - glad you get it!
I use a closed back 2x12", with different speakers in it (WGS Reaper HD and ET65). Works perfectly in virtually any situation.
57:00 "I'm lookin California and feelin Minnesota"
Love that song and especially that line! Thanks for another great show gentlemen!
I feel like this show is exactly what I’ve wanted for years. And even when I get worried about what topics they’re going to talk about net they bring something new and it’s always great! I’ve learned so much from the show. Keep it going guys!
I plug my guitar into a closed back laptop
You pesky kids.
That Pedal Show I’m sure software is blasphemy to most guitar enthusiasts but an episode demonstrating plugins will definitely interest a new demographic 🤘🏻 love your videos, thanks for making such informative and entertaining content
@@ReidStefanMusic for me, that's just not what TPS about... They remind us of a better time when we were allowed to crank our amps loud 😂
Although they did do an episode on going direct into the desk... It quite literally didn't resonate with them.
@@ReidStefanMusic No, if you know about electronics you would know that a circuit can be analog or digital. Computers now can process the parameters of that circuit to give a true representation of what it was designed for. All amp, pedals, and whatever use a voicing set by the circuit design. All this can now be replicated digitally. People who are educated do have an advantage. Here it's not wasting money on 10 amps, 200 pedals, and 5 guitars by getting a quality multi effect IR processor especially if its connected to a PC. Flounder about life, I'm all set.
@@kingfisher7960 uh huh lol, I own a Kemper. Doesn’t hold a candle to my real Friedmans. It might sound similar but the feel is night and day.
The Victory with the 1x12 and the slight OD @29:00 was to die for. This is the second time I have heard a Victory on this channel and been floored.
That open/closed back comparison blew my mind. I was perfectly aware that everything in the chain matters... but that sound difference to me is THE difference between "british and american sound" more than any tonestack... Thanks, guys! :)
Today i picked up a Marshall 1960A from Exeter services, probably one of the best days of my life.
Guys I loved this video! I enjoy seeing you guys mess around with various pedals, but there really is nothing better than you two imparting your vast knowledge to all of us. Fantastic!
Great show guys. I used open back cabs for years, but when I got my Mark 5:25 I got a closed back 1x12 Mesa Recto slant cab with UK made Celestion Vintage 30. And I was sold. What a HUGE sound from a small cab.
Mesa cabs are always exceptional. Mick here. Been there, watched them being made. Those guys go to the nth degree with cabs. Cheers!
The 112 cab sounds great,is the 112 at 24 mins an open back or closed back cab?
I've only played combos and modelers all my life, so this was really interesting and informative for me. Thanks!
Great show guys! I think you perfectly hit the variables... and hopefully left viewers with the knowledge that you just have to go play variations and always consider the room. Mid show I was reminded of a very lucky purchase in my youth: I bought an Ampeg V7 head... a loud thing that wasn't in great demand, so I got it very cheap. Being young and broke, I bought the cheapest cab I could find which happened to be an extremely beat up, beer soaked 2X12 open back cabinet. Well, in short, it was a magic combination that in some ways I have been chasing ever since. [I sold it out of necessity about a year later] :( Anyhow, thanks for all that you do! For everyone who has read this far: Skip the speaker comparison videos and go plug into as much as you can until you find your sweet spot.
27:07 Dan has a trouser malfunction 🙈 excellent show guys, I know speakers are just one link in the chain as you've stressed here but the Creamback sounds consistently awesome to my ears.
Hello Sam. I like it much - Mick here. The 65 and 75 are very different. Both good in different environments. Nice.
I gig with a 1x10 Marshall cab a lot and love it. My amp’s a Quilter 101 that I keep on my board. Bigger gigs I use an old Marshall 4x10. But the 1x10 really kills it at smaller gigs.
As a closed back user for years... that open back blew my mind; I absolutely loved the sound of that open back!
Time for a change I think!
Wow!!! That Tele Dan!!I cannot believe how glorious the wgs12 sounded!!! Holy sound waves Bat man!!!
Best cab i ever had was a late 60s Sound City 412 with Fane 122190 speakers. With SC head it was massive, suggest thatto pair with your Hiwatt Head chaps! now im just recording in a small flat in my old age so its either a 1X12 or IRs .
The cabinet is the "mastering section" of your guitar rig. It decides the overall dynamics and eq of your sound. It always baffles me how much time, energy and money people are willing to spend on tiny amp modifications and guitar upgrades... when they afterwards run it all through a random- or the same old "wrong for the job"-cabinet.
Hooray!
Ha! It always baffles me, too! But seriously, yes it is the final say in my sound (other than my girlfriend at home, or the sound guy on stage)
Rasmus Olesen Well stated!
I really think that we don't consider it much because of how little we understand about it. If I have no idea what to expect from a particular cab choice, than I'm likely to focus on the things I, at least think, I understand. Which is exactly the case with me. We really need more shows like this to help us delve into all this so we can begin to grow our understanding of it. Also if there was more focus by the industry on speakers and cabs we would all appreciate them so much more. Right now it's mostly the pedals that are so much fun to play with, and the amps second. Then we get around to the vast topics associated with the guitars themselves, followed by picks and such last, and NEVER even get to the speakers. It's the fault of all of us.
Lol baffle. I get it
Thank you guys for this episode.
I have been an EV 12L user for the past 10 years in my Fender and Perkins Amps and
Celestion V30 speakers in my Marshall and Soldano amps. I love the way that sounds live.
In the studio I use 12L speakers most of the time in the studio though. And you guys have already covered all the “why’s” of it all. Great episode. I’m really stoked by this. Great stuff!!!!
Lots of experience gained and no money spent. Thanks boys!
More info than any human being can thoroughly process in a single viewing. Thanks, now I won't feel guilty watching this one repeatedly! Great video.
Stuck in Florida at my in laws... episode much appreciated
Go down in your underwear and shout “I’m changing and I need your support”
That could help. :0)
Before you judge too harshly , remember the Allman Brothers sprang from the loins of Daytona. You might call it our one silver lining.
He'll be buggered if his father in law decides to get in on the moment! Stranger things have happened...
...sounds like a line from Police Academy
I feel for ya. My mother in law lives in Sebring, FL. Nothing to do there except whittling sticks and reading gun magazines
Added comment from below-- In my home studio I have a variety of amps similar to you guys = AC30, Friedman Small Box head, 68 Custom Deluxe RI, /13 head with 2-EL84/2-6V6 switchable. So, except for high gain, most flavors. I recently got my 3rd 2x12. This one matches my Smallbox. A Friedman 2x12 closed back with V30's. Never cared for V30's but took a gamble on having to return if I didn't like em. ....I like em! When paired with the Smallbox it sounds very nice, even the cleanish Plexi Channel. Other 2x12's I own and love:
/13 2x12 with greenbacks...Avatar 2x12 with G12H30 and Alnico Blue...
However, if I wanted to record, the Friedman 1x12 Celestion M65 would be first choice. BUT to take to a gig the 2x12 with closed back IMO, would will fill the room better. Just a subjective note; in a small studio room, say 25 feet by 14 feet, a 1x12 seems best for me. For larger and with band 2x12 and for a club 2x12 or 4x12. These days it's hard to justify using up car/van space for 4x12.
Since you guys haven't heard the recordings when you're making them, you might consider doing a bit of commentary after you hear the playback and including that in the video.
That would be cool. A production delaying nightmare, but cool. It might make a reasonable podcast. Getting us all in the same room is harder than it might seem. We should work on that!
I thought of the logistic difficulties while I was typing the comment, but I thought I'd make the suggestion anyway. Even if it was only the occasional video, it could be quite revealing, comparing what you hear in the room and what the microphones record.
Yes definitely!!! ...and add mic position on the cab... that's another show!
totally. I thought the 1x12 recorded the best. It sounded amazing to me. also the 4x12, lol
It wouldn't necessarily have to be immediate for it to be interesting, either. If you were to record 5 minutes of your thoughts on hearing something recorded from a past episode the next time you were together to record a set of shows, that too would be cool.
Especially since you talk all the time about tones that work in a band. (And rightfully so). Any tone that works in a band isn't likely heard by the audience the way you are hearing them in the room you record in. They're more likely hearing it through mics, the way your youtube audience does.
Thank you guys so much for the content. I normally don't comment, but after watching this episode I made what I thought was a really fascinating discovery (I've been trying unsuccessfully to convince my wife of the true value of this discovery). Lately I have been playing a '63 Fender Bandmaster through a Z-Best closed-back cabinet. I'm a big fan of Hendrix, SRV & KWS, and I've been loving the tones I was getting with a strat and a Fulltone OCD pedal through this amp + cab, which surprised me because the OCD is not the first pedal I would normally think of to pair with a strat. I have not been as enamored of the tones I was getting with my tube-screamer style pedals, on the other hand (I have an Ibanez TS-808 & Fulltone PlimSoul at the moment). I happen to also have a Baltic birch open-back cabinet made by 65 amps that I haven't played in a long while. After watching this episode, I pulled it out and plugged it in. Before any pedals were applied, the sound was already drastically different. I immediately perceived more highs, quite a bit more crunch and bite on the top end, less bass (to my ear) and less compression under my fingers. After making a few EQ adjustments, I turned on the OCD - and hated it! The bass seemed out of control, and way too brash. I lowered the drive, tweaked the EQ, but still wasn't feeling it. Then I tried the PlimSoul, and it sounded incredible. Maybe that should have been obvious: SRV, who famously employed a tube screamer, used a lot of Fender combos that were open backed. To me, it was a huge eye opener, so thank you.
The best cabinet I have played through, and own, is the Matchless ESD 212. I have put many speakers in it, played many amps through it, and it allways sounds great. I also own many different cabs, open and closed, and none of them has that 'give me any amp'. Second favorite is the Two-Rock 2x12 open back. That cab sounds huuuuge, and the bass is thundering. But not all amps work as well with that cab.
What I do know from experience, is that cheaper cabs, just don't stand up to higher priced cabs.
Awesome, thanks for sharing - so much variation!
I have some "many" points to share, I'll do it one by one, some in one day, some in other day, other comments:
1- Yes, we would admit the speaker is the very last and most important tone filter in guitar (sometimes not just in the guitar, but in the audio: MiC and Speakers; Pickup and Speakers, in the Guitar World;
2-I really apreciate when you say the context of the volume X environment, as the variants acting on the same speaker. Since each speaker has it's own sweetspot. that's absolutely true. I feel very happy when you say you can take any nice sound with any of those speakers, since you just need to match everything to the context;
3- Sometimes isn't the tone, but the reliability.
1 x 12 is nice, but in the real world, it's safer go with a 2 X 12 to the road. if, by some reason one speaker fails, you can make it win the remaining speaker, just like you're using a spare speaker. Just check the right output impendance of your head to the (damaged speaker) cabinet. A couple of 16 ohms use to be wired to 8 Ohms. If one speaker is down, you must connect the cabinet in the 16 ohms output of the head, instead of the 8 Ohms.
4- The 8 ohms speakers work well in open cabinets, and 16 ohms in closed speakers, instead. I was using a 16 ohms Celestion GT-12-75 16 ohms in an open cabinet and it sounded like a tragedy, very harsh. It sounds amazing tight on closed backs. 16 ohms are great on Tube Amps.
5-Some close cabinets - as much I use to prefer them than the open back ones - tend to be too much straight forward sounding, The open back use to spread the sound wide on the environment (with the pros and cons you can get of it: great on some rooms, bad on open stages). So, if you like to walk in the stage, the open back will cover a wider area, but, if the the closed cabinet is miked, you can ask the sound technicians to spread a little bit of your guitar in the stage monitors, to cover the "deaf spots".
To me as far as speakers go I believe the ceramic vs alnico magnets and actual speaker size make a big difference in how it sounds to me. I also think "tone" aside I like Pine>Ply>MDF for my cabs mainly for looks tbh. I like a nice bare oiled up wood speaker cab. Kind of how I like a nice transparent finish on guitars with nice looking wood. It just looks good to me.
4x12 for life 🤘
Have learned so much watching your show over the last few months.
Love it!!!
Great show. I loved hearing the speaker swap in the 1x12. A speaker swap in one or two combos would be interesting too, just to hear the differences.
Speakers and cabinet sizes are two huge tone variables that a lot of people don't understand.
My 1x12 Swart has a Celestion Creamback in a very narrow combo cab. A lot of people think it sounds "boxy" but when I mic it in a band setting, the narrow, cutting midrange sits perfectly with the drums.
1 speaker manufacturer i didnt hear mentioned, 1 of the old british greats and still making amazing speakers is FANE.
Yep... The heart and soul of Hiwatt.
Fane has Amazing reviews by a major guitar mag!
Happy your initial reluctance to tackle this subject didn’t prevent you from making the vid. Thanks for a great episode, guys!
I love education episodes like these. Keep them up, boys! I am also curious what you guys think after listening to the audio of the amps in the recording, vs. being in the room. I know that on several tests I felt that the 2x12 sounded best (this could be due to bias as my amp is a Reeves Custom 50 PS 2x12). Cheers!
I'm addicted to this channel. You have saved me a LOT of time and a good amount of money.
This was a timely show! Historically I have used 4X10's cos just love the punch, but I've been trying to reduce the weight of carrying equipment so went and bought the Orange Rocker 15 which has a 1X10 open back. Sounds great but can get boxy in the wrong room. Last night I added a 1X12 closed back extension cab because of an upcoming gig. OMG the difference was astounding. Yes its louder but with a tele bridge pick up all the gaps in frequencies were filled. Bass was strong but not overpowering, highs were there without being grating and the midrange full. Interestingly though the neck pick up sounded dull compared to the 1X10 on its own.
By the way first gig with a new singest tomorrow so wish us luck :-)
I use a cab with Celestion 15 inch with three 4 inch speakers with my Fender EC Tremolux. Sounds full with incredible low end without losing the high frequencies.
I feel validated after being sickeningly reluctant to traipse down this rabbit hole too far. Really great video this week. Thank you much.
Glad you enjoyed it Bruce!
Glad you enjoyed it Bruce!
That's why I love the g10 greenback. I can get really nice tones while playing at bedroom volume.
I have an Avatar 2 x 10 combo cab(can either be closed or partially open) with one Celestion Alnico Blue and one Alnico Gold. I don't know why... but it sounds awesome!
Cause it cost 600$
Loved this episode for a number of reasons, not the least of which because I've just started getting into impulse responses. As a gigging guitar player that also does some front of house work I've found that bad speakers/cabs sound bad no matter what you do to it, but a cheap amp into a good cab can sound pretty good. And that much of the sound is in pushing the speaker the way it wants to be pushed and getting the mic in the right spot. All the fancy guitars and 100 watt Marshall heads and mogami cables in the world won't help if you're using the wrong speakers/cab or if your mic position is wack.
what I take home from this episode it's that
1 - different speakers sound different
2 - different cab designs sound different
3 - small cabs and big cabs can both sound great
4 - there's no real "magic combination" beyond finding the right cab that works for you and for the venue you're playing in
We would agree Sven - thanks for sharing that. Everything matters - we keep saying it and one by one people are getting it! (It’s not just us, but y’know...)
Thanks for watching!
Great, now I have to go try every cab in every room in the world. Better get started!
Cheers from across the pond! I play in a 70's/80's cover band (classic/hard rock) and we proudly still perform with Marshall stacks, ours have the G12T-75's (granted we only run them all live where it makes sense to do so). In our area we see a lot of backline disappear to become small combos and DI load boxes, which makes easy load in load out, but there's an intangible, palpable feeling that comes with playing in front of the Marshall wall (not to mention how awesome a wall of cabs looks). It's well worth the extra setup to my ears, it does take a bit of restraint not to crank them and blast the front row into oblivion, but with effort they can be dialed in at lower volumes..
100 per cent agreement. Nothing sounds like proper speakers. Thanks for watching and commenting!
In a band context, IMO a 1x12 is a bit boxy...leads are okay but overall, especially if you are the only guitar player in a 4 piece, 2x12 is the best starting point IMO.
17:33 that is without a doubt, one of the best sounds you guys have ever had. For me, it's tied with the Harmonic trem + drive as well as when you played a fender, vox and marshall at the same time. You guys kick ass!
What about angles of speakers? Like cabinet tilted. Does this help with better sound projection?
Yes, if the speaker is nearby. I have tilt-back legs on my tweed so I, too, can hear what I am playing.
I learnt so much about speakers, cabs and mics from using different impulse responses. Needless today it has opened my eyes to speakers that I had written off and helped me branch out from the good old V30
+aidan stanley nice :)
How about an episode called That Chord Show and you talk about chord selection and your thought process? #Nashville needs you!!!
Eeee, that would be a Dan only show. He knows expensive chords. I only know idiot chords. :0)
That Pedal Show thank you for the reply! Yes that's my problem too😘 Uhh it just happens.
Look up Eric Haugen on RUclips , he is in my opinion the best guitar teacher out there on RUclips, his lessons are aimed at intermediate and above level of player, linking chord shapes (different inversions, extended chords etc) to scales and the caged system with the emphasis on helping you think for yourself. Look Eric up, I'm sure that you won't be disappointed .
Karl Longbottom Dude thank you very much! Cheers😘
Grant Dickey, your welcome, hope you enjoy, Eric is the man .I'm just learning a Hendrix version of Mack the knife, I never would have thought that I would be interested in Mack the knife, but hey when it's done like Hendrix it takes on a new life. All the best Karl
Hi from Jan 2022. 4x12 all day :) I'm 54 this year, with a busted shoulder and back. We have wheels on ours, no lifting, it slides out of the car and back in, just push it, too easy. And the Aussies won the Cricket 3-0...
I preferred the 1x12 creamback over the wgs 12”
My setup Two open back 1 X 12" cabs in Stereo with different speakers and powered by 2 Amps. For example a bright Jensen on the left and a darker Celestion (Creamback or something like this) on the right. Great !!!! If I got more space on the stage I use two 2x12" cabs in stereo or sometimes, if I go crazy: in the middle a 2x12" with mixed speakers Jensen C12N and a Celestion Vintage 30 and on the right and left a 1x12" with different speakers (mostly an Creamback and a Jensen Blackbird 40, powered by 3 Amps 🙂 I got many different cabs, in different sizes. From Mini 35x35c25 cm to oversized cabs. Depending on the music and band I play with. For Jazz I use the min cabs, for modern stiles like Jazz-Rock-Fusion I use the bigger cabs, mostly, like I said two 1x12" open back. This works great for me.
If you guys had Danish Pete on the show, I would watch it 10,000x.
We’ll hold you to that when he’s on. :0)
If you dont have time, i can watch half of them👍🏼
Everybody has a crush on Danish Pete!
Is this Danish Pete
Purple vs. Red Tele !!!!
Gotta add something in response to the 9:00 minute mark. For years Infinite baffle usually meant there is no back to the cabinet at all. Some very high end home stereo speakers use this design with the rooms walls essentially completing the “cabinet”, as do car stereo speakers out of boxes, where the trunk or door becomes the cabinet . A Marshall 4x12 is a full sealed, or acoustic suspension design, which is definitely different. The third design is a ported enclosure, which can come in a variety of styles, but is typical for bass cabs, and some guitar cabinets like the Dr.Z and Mesa Boogie, which use a larger, elongated port designed around the specs of the particular driver. Referring to both no-back and completely sealed enclosures with the same term seems needlessly prone to further confusion.
18:37 - To Dan "it's like having a bass guitar" - you should try my 135 watt vibrosonic with the 15 inch speaker =D that thing can kick out octave down like nobody's business
I play a 2x15 with old Fane speakers and just love their slow, warm, dark sound. And of course that they rip your head off in that charming way.
Wow, can't believe the difference between the open and closed back cabs at the end. That's nuts. Great show as always!
Miced!
Holy, thanks for playing Outshined!
SOME INFO FOR THOSE LOOKING FOR CABS: I'm watching this video because I wanted to check out 2x10 cabinets. What I found in your testing is that the 1x12 with the Celestion Creamback sounds incredible, the 2x12 with V30s sounds great, too. The 1x12 with the Warehouse speaker didn't have as much detail, but I'm sure it's a great speaker for mid range, overdriven sounds. I think the 2x10 cab didn't sound very good, which is surprising. I think 2x10 cabs sound great with clean Strat or Tele sounds, or country. You get a lot of detail and punchy lows, very tight sound. And you have to get the right speakers. I had a Fender Vibroverb reissue with 2x10s - a Celestion V10 paired with a Jensen P10R. It sounded amazing. The V10 provided a tight bass response and the Jensen got the Fender tone in the high end. They both provided variations on mid range that combined together, sounded very strong, not overbalanced to mids but filled out evenly from top to bottom.
I now have a 1x12 open back with a UK Celestion V30 that's a great all around speaker, with lots of detail. I can play heavy rock with it or country, or clean, and the V30 handles all the styles well. The cab it's in is a TT Cab, made in Germany, convertible to closed back. Very punchy, perfect cab.
I had a Marshall 2x12 cab that looks like the one under your Marshall, with Heritage reissues in the 2061c cabinet and it did not sound good. I changed the speakers to Celestion gold alnico and the cab still didn't sound good. Very boxy. You can check out Johan Segeborn's reviews on these types of Marshall cabs. They just don't sound good. I've had a Mesa 2x12 Rectifier cab loaded with Celestion V30s and that was very bassy.
I now have a Dr Z Z-Best 2x12 that can sound really huge, or if I load up the port with sound foam, it sounds a little tighter and great too. This cabinet is way better than any 2x12 configuration I've ever had. I have a Z12 (eminence designed speaker) in the bottom and a Celestion G12 H30 on the top. Hope this helps.
Has anyone found a great 2x10 cab? And what speakers do you prefer?
2x10 cuts live imo ,sometimes that low frequency isnt always needed in a band and its more immediate attack,2x12 has more squish. ,Megadeth or Albert Lee,I will take both :)
I ran two Zilla 2x12 Fatboys with V30's and Jensen Mods. That's a massive trouser shaking sound but the bass is a bit hard to tame! I've down sized to 1 Zilla 1x12 ported cab with a creamback. That with a Mesa Electradyne and a King of Tone is just the most amazing rock crunch. Gotta love Paul and the guys at Zilla. Just the most amazing work and lovely people to buy from.
Electradyne. What a KILLER amp! :0)
It is!! Sadly overlooked by Mesa enthusiasts as it just doesnt have enough knobs and dials - but it's an awesome amp, and that reduced tweakability makes it perfect for pedals!
Needs some more Earthquaker, OBNE & Wren & Cuff love :))))
Thanks, guys! Great show as always! Please do a show on amps with power tube switching - 6L6 vs. EL34, pentode/triode/single-ended modes, preamp tubes swap and how all that affect your tone.
Yes! Outshined!!!
This is fascinating! The constant reminder about variables rings true. How a closely-placed mic picks up a speaker versus how the speaker/s sound and feel in the room makes it difficult to parse what exactly is being heard from one cab to the next. That said, y'all did a great job explaining what you heard and felt, as always. I did a blind cabinet comparison on the SpectreSoundStudios channel, and with an amplifier that shares almost no characteristics with my own amp, the cabinet I ended up liking best was the V30 Mesa 2x12 - the same one I've owned (though only had the opportunity to play through on and off) for ten years. The one I ended up disliking the most was the oversized Mesa 4x12 (though speaking of variables, I don't know whether it had the same speakers as the 2x12). And I bet that 4x12 is fun to be in the room with, but the mic told a completely different story to my ears. As for this video, I think my favorite was the Creamback 1x12, but it's not as though there was a bad choice in the 12" speaker category.
I'm finally moving into a house soon and look forward to testing cabinets more...thoroughly (loudly). And I like digital recording rigs and IRs and all that, but I've missed that *fun* of plugging into an amp and being in the room with it.
(Here is the cabinet video I mentioned. It's metal, so it probably isn't for everyone, but it does illustrate the difference the cabinets and construction make.)
ruclips.net/video/ORX8PzQTi5A/видео.html
Please try the new Fane Ascension A60 Alnico Speakers!
I use a Marshall 1960b and I love it to death, never owned a different 4x12 but yeah, I had a moment yesterday when nobody was home and I cranked up the orange micro dark through it and it sounded glorious, that bass like he talks about in the video is just so satisfying.
I’m about to build my own ported 212 in the next month or two. Wish me luck!
Good luck!
"The pine was petrified" "Must have been terrified" I'm thinking more like torified. ;)
'torrefied' (which refers to alteration by heat, not age).
I have some 1x12 pine that's been bookshelves since 1965. Lots, fortunately, as I want several boxes.
Great Video. very informative.
I put a G12-H 75 Creamback into my Marshall DSL401 (2008) a few years back and it changed it so much for the better, sounds lovely and has that heavy magnet oomf that sounds so great for classic rock. Also very articulate.
It’s my fave Celestion speaker for my tastes. Mick here. Had no idea it would work in a Marshall... nice.
It's funny that Dan's favorite cabinet combination is a 1x12 open back, but he can't remember 'Blues Jr.' to save his life.
Great episode. I run a '68 plexi into a matching '68 4x12 with greenbacks, and a Hayden mini mofo into a 2x12 loaded with '76 G12H. All set up wet/dry thanks to that pedal show! I mostly play pub gigs... and drummers hate me :D Thanks guys!
But we LOVE you! 68 Plexi. Oh Lordy!
Thought something other than 'fffffffundamentally' was coming out when you were on about crap cabs, Mick.
Had to think about. Quick, turn left!
I LOVE my 4 x 12 cabs. I have a V30 loaded one , a G12T-75 loaded one and another G12M-25 Greenbacks loaded one. But I hate carting them around so I have a few 2X12 cabs too homemade ones with V30's and a greenback loaded one. Plus a 6 x 10 Fender cab that I love too.
Hendrix used a 4x10 to record Voodoo Child - saw it in an interview with Eddie Kramer.
I prefer a 2x12 to play live; the Traynor Dark Horse cab has tilted Celestion greenbacks. Use a Marshall head tho.
Voodoo chile was recorded with a bassman right.
Hendrix used a 4x10 for everything. Hes pretty famous for it.... After all he did have 2 people holding his 4x12 cab for him at Monterey. People dont understand that back then they didnt have 5000watt PA systems. That front line was it! Thats all they had.
@@kingfisher7960 200 Watt Marshall Majors!
'Ph-Ase makes a Mick think things over....' One of your best for sure. Lots of useful explanation and self explanatory demo evidence. Great job gents👍👍👍👏👏👏.
It ain't ball tampering, it's relicing.
YES!
I use a Marshall 1960A cab with a JCM 2000 100 w head @ 4ohms. Sounds great ! I also have a 1990's Mesa Boogie 4 x 12 half open with Celestion G12H speakers and half closed with Altec 12's. Best of both worlds !!!
I use 2 4x12's. Just because i can!
YES!
Savage! Do the walls and windows rattle, or do you have a soundproof studio too?
Alright, calm down Jimi 😀
I have a new Marshall DSL40CR with its stock 1x12. And it has so much bass at like 3 or 4 on the master volume its rattling multiple walls. Crazy. :)
You are an absolute hero!! Not having to worry about potential deafness must be wonderful :P
This episode and the episode where you discussed properly powering your pedalboard have been the most useful for me, thanks for this!
Hooray!
Mick - what’s the smallest cab I can get away with that will sound ok...
Me - how many 412s and Amps can I run at the same time in a standard bedroom 🤔
Your neighbours should think about earthquake insurance...
I’ve gone through a ton of 2x12 cabs and, surprisingly, settled on an EVH with one 70th anniversary speaker and a heritage large magnet Greenback with the 55hz cone. It works for everything I’ve thrown at it.
I have a 4x12 and I don't gig. I use it in a 36 square meter room with a Laney IRT60H.
We love you Roy!
I love you too Mark and Don ;)
I don't play it too loud very often. I don't want to end up with tinnitus. I use a dB meter and a table with amount/exposure time and when it becomes damaging.
But when I crank it for a bit, it feels amazing.
Ray Torvalds lmao the first sentence of that comment made my day :'D
Great episode. Two things I noticed:
1. Smaller cabs can actually have more bass when close micd than when just listening to the room sound. A 2x12 can sound fatter than a 4x12 that way.
2. Careful when handling the massive magnets on speakers while wearing a mechanical watch.
Lessons to be learned at TPS:
- Tape delays NEED a Tape
- Leslies NEED a rotating speaker
- Guitar cabs NEED four chassis
How drastically does the impedance change from closed to open? Im just asking because yesterday I temporarily modified the rear panel of my 112 Orange cab (60w @ 16ohms) from closed to open (after removing the original rear panel I added two separate less-wide panels top and bottom with a space in the centre. I modified it so i could get the celestion vintage 30 to 'breathe' and try and see if it made it sound smoother as an open back - before considering buying an alternative to try.
The amp is an old Vadis 60watt tube head, its really loud and clean and has a lot of headroom.
That Pedal Show aka That Rabbit Hole 🐇
Going in, we all know different speakers will sound different. However, the closed back vs open back demo was eye opening, it made just as big a difference! Great show as usual.
Theoretically, whenever you double the speakers - you are getting a 3 dB increase in volume, mostly in the low end. There are variables that will eat away at this figure. But as you go from 1 speaker to 2 speakers, you have a 3 dB increase in volume, double that again and you have another 3 dB. So by the time you have a two 4x12 speaker cabs on top of each other - you have a total of 9 dB increase in volume, theoretical maximum, over the single speaker. Again this is mostly happening in the lower frequencies like 500 Hz and below. But this also improves the efficiency of your amp, you can dial out more and more bass frequencies and shift more of that energy in the power section over to mids and highs. If you don't believe this is true - try your little favorite 15 watt combo amp and use it as a head to a stack of two 4x12 speaker cabs - and it will be a monster in volume!
You get a 3db increase no matter the efficiency of the speakers? I do love that natural chorusing sound of 2 or more speakers in a cab but it keeps getting louder and heavier.
@@thesjkexperience yes 3dB increase with identical efficiency speakers
Hi Guys. Another superb and thought provoking show. Proud to wear TPS tee shirts here in Northern California, a bike ride away from the birthplace of Mick's Mesa Boogie. The tees do spark conversations. I sometimes wish I could deeply study each topic before squeezing the trigger on purchases. Easier to A-B some things than others, especially cabs. I can A-B my guitars, for example, and some pedals. But for amp and cab I studied as much as feasible and leapt faithfully for Morgan AC20 Deluxe and his Chameleon, which you heard at NAMM in 2016, I believe. It's a 1 X 12 cream-back in a cabinet built with great attention to air channeling. (iso cab I use mostly without the isolation clam shell.) Guitars are Heritage 335-style with Lollar P90s. Stunning. Heritage Les Paul-style with ThroBak KZ115s and bumble bee capacitors. Differently stunning. Really amazing. Pedals to fool around with or leave off, depending on mood and need for variety (one of the reasons we play, right?) are D&M Drive, Hudson Broadcast, MXR Carbon Copy Deluxe, Strymon Blue Sky and Morgan OD and MkII Fuzz in the beginning. Again, just for fun. All in the loft of my barn. Yanks will understand this to be a "fort". No one can possibly match Dan for rapturous enthusiasm but these set me on the same path. But the point here is, while not being able to A-B cabs once purchase decisions have been made, we hear a sound for inspiration and then tweak what we've got and adapt our playing and pots to produce the tone we're chasing. It's even down to pick selection. Thanks Peter for Prime Tone 88s. So I've got a perhaps wacky combination of elements but still find something to chase. And with unbridled joy in the process. This program was immensely educational. I wonder how feasible it would be to compare pickups. Knucklehead, ThroBak, Lollar, Seymour Duncan... Thomas Gray and your friend Graham Coxon seem extremely impressed with the Knuckleheads. Thanks again, guys. Sorry for length of this post. -Greg
I sold my 4x12, like an idiot, and now i have a 2x12 on a stand that takes up more space on stage....
That’s pretty hilarious
1:04:10 Yes... I know all the theory about impedance, the way the amp react, etc...however, I generally always used 8 Ohms cabs because it was convenient. Generally most amp head have 8 Ohms speaker out, so it's easier to mix match heads and cabs. However, the more I dig into it, the more it seems like for a lot of people, 16 Ohms cabs seem to sound "better"...
Unfortunately, there's so many variables that it's difficult to even be able to find a place in store, etc... to even compare two identical cab with the same speaker where only the impedance would be different. Since you have two Zilla Custom cabs here, it would be interesting to do a follow up video to have a 8 ohms an a 16 ohms in each cab and compare them to hear the sound difference and then the feel difference by the impedance difference only.
I think you can split hairs infinitely Phil. In theory. For us it’s more about the broader brush strokes. If you’re down to worrryjg about whether a 16 or 8 ohm cab sounds better, you’ve reached a level of consistency and other gear harmony that we’ve never even seen. For example, a quarter turn on one EQ knob on one pedal will have a 5x effect of that speaker difference. On the other hand, it all matters. So try it!
Thanks, you pretty just confirmed what I thought so far and why I never bothered much about it and why I preferred to stick to 8 Ohms so far (since it was the most convenient... well, at least for me). But somehow, I was still wondering because, for instance, every time I hear some V30 (2x12" or 4x12") and I like the sound, it happens to be 16 Ohms... but there's always so many other variables that I couldn't really A/B compare them properly.
If the amplifier has multiple output impedances the 16ohm would likely be using the entire secondary of the output transformer where the 8 ohm output would be a tap in the transformer so you wouldn’t be using the entire winding even if you do have an impedance match.
I recently had a 1965 Bassman on the bench which has 4ohms output and I had it plugged into an 8ohm speaker load. After troubleshooting the leaky caps etc I then put a 4 ohm 25w resistor in parallel with the speaker and the amp sounded different and much better.
The moral to my point? Not sure really, other than having an impedance match sounds better than going 8 ohm output to 16 ohm cab or 4 ohm output to 8 ohm cabinet.
Yes, matching impedance makes sense... but regarding the transformer winding use, I'm not really convinced to be honest. I can understand how it can have an impact (and it surely does), but I think we're spliting hairs here too. But I might be wrong thought, as said, that's the whole reason for asking a compare between 8 and 16 ohm. If somehow can come with a proper A/B compare that could change my mind, I'm open to change it.
Phil Smith I would agree about tonal differences in the whole winding version tapped winding.
I was really surprised when I simply put the resistor on my 8 ohm speaker load when working on the Bassman and how dramatically better it sounded.
I think (opinion) the actual impedance the transformer sees is more important than how much of the winding is being used. I’d love to hear from tech’s and amp builders to see what they think on the topic.
Just for once, I challenge you guys to open the show with a non-pentatonic riff. C'mon you can do it!
Not me - impossible! I literally don’t know anything else. Mick here. Maybe Dan can open the shows. Cheers!
matthallmusic The pentatonic just sounds good man. Go play some jazz man 😉✌🏼
Ha ha. Good on you Mick. Thanks for all the vids 😄
Wow! Thank you so much for this episode. What you talk about here is why I recently went for combos over head and using venue cabs for gigs, and then STILL needing and eq pedal because the sound isn’t consistent across rooms.I guess i would love more advice on how to achieve a consistent sound across rooms and venues - to the extent possible. I know “get a smaller amp” trick already so the volume is more of a constant.
The best speaker on all events is MICK himself!
Dan too. I love to listen to him explain what is going on within a circuit of a pedal. He always makes it relatable for me.
Another mega show guys. After 30 years in the business, I still learn heaps each week. One note about speakers. When I was gear editor at Guitar One, Eminence sent us two 4x12 cabs filled with four different model speakers each for a total of eight models. They coupled it with a switching system that looked like something our of a cyberpunk movie. I played the same head and guitar through each of the eight models in rapid succession and I was gob-smacked by how different each made the amp sound. Lesson learned. It is too bad that music stores don’t have guitar speaker rooms, like their recording monitor rooms where customers can bring their amp and plug into a variety of speakers. Of course, as I just learned from you, placing it in their cabinet will further alter the sound, but it might be better than buying totally blind.
Thanks Michael - assuming it’s Michael?! /0) There a great shop in Germany - Musik Productiv - that has just such a switcher. It’s utterly amazing. Any cab, any amp! Hope you’re well man. :0)
Yeah it's me. Doing great thanks. Loved the "just for the halibut" line. There is a shop in Nashville that has a few different speakers in different cabs that you can try, but even better, they will install the speaker in your combo while you wait and let you decide.