Danaher - What's wrong with BJJ Takedowns?
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2020
- John Danaher goes over the main problems he sees in the current Jiu Jitsu standing game.
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Hey John, whats the meaning of life?
-I have identified 8 particular issues in the meaning of being alive.
🤣🤣
to love others and accomplish over challenges in life
- Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of their women.
- John, that’s only 3.
- Yes, I’ll get to the others later.
Rumor is Danaher doesn’t own a single t-shirt.
Problem 1: "If I don't need them, why should I wear them?"
I bet he wears a rash guard to the grocery store.
@@diablohashcraft8040 they said he wore a rash guard to a wedding. true story
he is ALWAYS ready to roll!! NO excuses
@@diablohashcraft8040 a couple of years ago I walked past Danaher (which I was surprised to how big he was compared to videos) and he was rocking a brown rash guard out in the street.
I don’t even practice BJJ, I just like the way John Danaher breaks things down.
I feel you, I've been listening to him talk for a while, but started jiu jitsu like 5 days from now
Ago*
Dude literally has a PhD in philosphy
Haha me too
You are who John Danaher is working so hard towards getting a total grip, no pun intended, to elevate BJJ to the next phase, as a spectator sport.
I'm sure you may have heard him discuss, the majority of spectators at bjj events, are participants.
Bjj culture is so close to expanding its base, to more than just the participants.
This Teacher is playing such a big role in this process.
I'm in the same boat as you pal. I'm looking forward to becoming a participant, as soon as the lockdown shit will allow gyms to open.
As a green belt in Judo and a no-stripe white belt in BJJ, my Judo takedowns have helped me out so much. Higher belts are like, "WTF just happen?"...it's a great feeling, and then I get choked out on the ground, but it's the small victories that matter the most.
Judo sucks in USA
Understanding Kuzushi from practicing judo and sambo has helped my jiu jitsu as a whole. It def helps you understand sweeping from the bottom position much better.
Freaking relatable! Lol only an orange here, but a handful of people in my last gym had that same reaction. One or two wanted to pick up some judo after the fact. It's beautiful ☺️
My morning class does Judo/wrestling in gi for the first 20-30 min with warmup.. 15-25 min of ground game.. then 5-15 min 2-3 roll rounds... I love Judo.. I'm just not that good at it wrestling no gi but Judo I can over power many guys 200+ lbs and I'm 155lbs wet.. Thank god for my professor who has done Judo
You got what they don't. And they got what you don't! Once you get what they got, everyone else in trouble lol.
Sith Emperor of modern jiu-jitsu
he is the senate
@@hhattonaom9729 he is the senate
😂😂
More like Yoda
Something something darksideeee
The seating arrangement makes me feel uncomfortable
@Jiu-Jitsu 4 Odin Do tell what?
@Jiu-Jitsu 4 Odin Uh, how many people do you sit that close to that you aren't related to or attracted to.
@Jiu-Jitsu 4 Odin John is in a chair which is comically massive, their chairs are literally touching and Bernardo is sitting in spread eagle
@@stephensmall3148 It's a result of room size, distance of camera from the subjects and the need to get both people in frame at the same time. No need to project a game of gay chicken on them.
Damn I wish I read this comment after I saw the video, now I can't think of anything else
Problem is putting takedowns aside has a huge impact in JiuJitsu effectiveness as a combat system. In real life situations, on concrete or hard surfaces, takedowns are game changers
Bjj ppl think they have it all figured out the holy grail. Reality its greatly watered down judo as a base. With zero stand up fighting. Worst for self defense.
Before Brazilians had strong stand up from judo combined with advanced ground fighting from their bjj. Such as Jacare for one.
I always thought that not having takedowns in Bjj was a serious issue. How can a martial art be complete absent takedowns?
The bigger problem is the MASSIVE amount of the BJJ community that is in denial about this. They think that this isn't an issue, doesn;t matter, BJJ will just be as good as when Royce used it to kick ass in UFC 1 bla bla bla....It's obvious the sport is heading further and further from resembling a functional fighting system. Sure, it's a slow creep but it is happening.
I don't mind if people say "Hey you know what I don;t care I just do BJJ because I love the sport". That's fair enough. It's when people deny it's happening and there's no possible way BJJ could ever get watered down that it gets frustrating
@Kevin Pope makes no sense there's a wrong a right bjj now?
@Kevin Pope Right but if I have 5 BJJ academies within 100km of me, and none of them train that way (which is a problem many people face), what option do people have? Soon clubs like you describe will end up being a very small minority in BJJ I fear. It will be like Karate: 90% of karate is watered down light contact kickboxing in strip malls. 10% is legit, like Kyokushin or the old school Okinanwan, but it's very hard to find.
Being a wrestler for 6 years. I'm used to starting and going for a takedown and it sucks basically taking all that experience away with everyone pulling guard
Do a cartwheel while theyre pulling guard. Its very effective
go home and cry alone
lol just kidding, i love wrestling takedows, just beautifull
Slam them
Im the same but I still do it for mma and self defense you cannot pull guard there.
1st problem is most school start on the knees
This is a problem usually related to mat size and number of people on the mat.
@@kjuarez29 that’s why I always rolled after class and insisted to start standing. I destroyed my shoulder playing football, I’m finally cleared again. Before I sign back up at a gym, I’m gonna do a wrestling season
well that's basically what Professor Danaher said, only he mentioned it as problem number two.
Not here in Brazil
Not really. My club starts most rolling rounds on the knees, but all my students can wrestle. The problem is just simply training time and training methodology. You need to make time for it, and you need to train it systematically.
People need to be switched on to how BJJ is changing. It's drifting further away from how a real fight looks. Like Danaher said before, takedowns are critical for self defense.
Maybe people don't care about fighting proficiency anymore in BJJ, they just want to do the sport. That's fine, but BJJ is no doubt heading down the same slippery slope Karate and TKD went down. People can stick their head in the sand about it, but it's clear that BJJ is heading down that same well trodden road.
100 yrs ago Jack Dempsey said the same thing about boxing, instead of teaching kids how to beat up a mugger, boxing gyms were teaching kids how to run around the ring. There's a big difference
The pussification and watering down of the old school, tough, and more traditional schools (and their hardline technical teachings) is a big part of the problem. I'm happy to say that my professor doesn't teach half ass techniques, and he doesnt allow half ass students (he actually refers guys like that to the dojo up the street). My coach is a Higan Machado black belt that came from old school traditional gyms and teachers. He conveys the same message and teaching to all of his students equally. So there are some good gyms left, just sadly very few.....
@HenryDavidT Khabibb is also a BJJ and Judo blackbelt. He's the most rounded grappler we've seen in mma.
@@ula17404 Khabib is not a BJJ black belt.
@@rhinobridge u're right, i thought i read it few years ago somewhere, but cant find that info. But still bbest grappler we've seen.
Its funny because Bernardo doesn't look like an absolute killer. I Didn't even know he was jiu jitsu champion until I looked him up.
Same. Saw him doing explanations on YT so I guessed he was big, but I had no idea
Which is why we never underestimate no one.
Yaaaaa, he's a bit of a monster
Looks like you can take him in bjj and there you are a pretzel
Bruh, "Four-time World Jiu-Jitsu Champion, European Champion, Pan-American Champion and Brazilian National Champion."
Summary:
1) Lack of motivation. The motivation isn't there: many grapplers become world champions without a good TD game, and practicing TD's is not a good time investment when your opponent will simply pull guard if you're known to have a good TD game.
2) Fragmented teaching. TD techniques are taught in an isolated way (TD's are often trained briefly just as a warmup) without contextualization into the bigger picture or prerequisite skills. TD techniques are added from wrestling and judo with little thought as to how well they translate into the BJJ rule set.
3) Training time. Training time is usually dedicated to ground work instead of standing. (I would add that for many schools, this is due to crowded mats making standing sparring/training dangerous and therefore rare).
Spot on. Today, you can go from white belt to black belt in BJJ without having any proficiency in takedowns.
I think if people want to learn takedowns for BJJ, a better approach is for a BJJ class to have dedicated Judo or Wrestling classes, rather than, as you say, trying to learn something as technical as a takedown by practicing it for 10 minutes at the start of a BJJ class. Once they get some takedown proficiency, they can develop BJJ specific approaches to those Takedowns.
I think the biggest contributor is the first one: the fact that the person butt scooting is considered the "active" one, while the standing fighter is "stalling". If you switch that rule set, I think takedowns will be much more significant in bjj
thanks for the synopsis
Danaher is spot on as (nearly?) always. I went to Judo because in BJJ people don't properly teach takedowns, nor value them in the ruleset in the least. I'm of the unpopular opinion (in bjj) that you should *not* be forced to engage a grounded opponent who pulls guard, it should be his burden to entangle you properly - if he cannot, then his technique failed, and I should have the option of stepping back and requesting him to stand up.
Sadly, Judo has similar problems for groundwork: they teach groundwork as isolated, fragmented moves. But most importantly, I cannot stand how their one and only defense is turning on their back (which is suicide both in BJJ and in real life).
or you could pass his guard relentlessly and make him regret his guard pull decisions instead of being a pussy and asking him to stand up. no matter how you feel, the guard is an essential part of jiu jitsu
@@scarysun15 or I could not. Why does he get to decide? Why does he get to prevent me from doing standup in BJJ without properly binding me?
Why do we even start on the feet in the first place, if you can bypass the phase by gaming the rules?
Learn to actually entangle people when you pull guard, or stand up instead of running away from fighting on your feet, i.e. in your words "instead of being a pussy".
No decent judoka is going to be on the bottom in self degense.Turtling is purely a stalling strategy for sport judo.
@@scarysun15 guard pulling is different, they forced you down legitimately not butt scooting without grips,thats what should be banned.
@@scarred10 no decent anyone is aiming to be on the bottom in self defense, what has that to do with anything? You said it right: turtling is purely a stalling strategy for sport judo. But the problem is that while in Bjj you train to get to the top from it, in judo you don't train anything because the ref will save you. So that if the time comes you need your training, you might find you didn't actually train the crucial part of getting up from bottom....
as a judoka who does some BJJ, it's incredibly frustrating, it's almost impossible to even practice standing game in BJJ, no matter your skill level. as soon as someone starts putting real effort into the standing game, the other guy just pulls guard. if I want to practice any of these moves, the opponent just sits on their ass and pulls guard, that's the only thing most of them practice. and especially as a judoka who takes pride in the standing game, it's annoying to see people decide to pull guard before we even start the round, because they all know "hey that guy does judo, let me just fall back" I only have 1-2 guys who actually put effort into the standing game during classes.
You gotta find the other wrestlers or judokas in the gym. There’s always a few guys who are up for all the smoke.
The confort zone is a problem for BJJers. I'm a judoka trying to get better on ground game. I want to be submitted by the best guys at the gym because I know that's how you get better. That's not the mindset of many BJJers. They run away from any judo...
If Danaher didn't do jiu jitsu he would 100% be some sort of super villain
Lex in DC
Or a super gay
Would announce his evil plans to the world from the top of the Empire State Building
So... Jiu jitsu saved us all?
No he would probably be a rugby union coach in New Zealand 🇳🇿
my old gym started an hour rolling class. we did 20 minutes positional rolling, 20 minutes of stand up, and 20 free rolling. our stand up game as a whole got so much better
Completely true. My friend is a BJJ national champ and I'm a good wrestler/good striker/bad bjj. He could not take me down once even when I gave him my back. They're just not used to taking people down. He just gets lit up eternally.
Yet he murders me on the ground 10/5x
John takes the title of professor to the fullest degree of its literal meaning.
He was in school to be a philosophy professor so, he knows how to convey information very well. Along with having a very deep level of understanding
I had a bit of a different introduction to BJJ because one of my instructors was a D1 college wrestler and BJJ black belt, and my other instructor was a Judo BB before he did BJJ. Every class we started with takedown setups, and pulling guard was highly discouraged. My instructor (the wrestler) always used to say “Every competition match is eventually going to go to the ground, so why not get points for it with a takedown?”
that coach is a wonderful example of someone who treats it as a sport, a competition with winners and losers, and not something else.
One of the most comprehensive analysis of the takedown conundrum in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Bernardo:
Danaher: Thank you for asking Bernardo, let me take you on a long-winded journey for the next 20 minutes
Only people with little patience think like you.
I did Judo for 25 years before getting into Bjj (just got to old to take the falls) and a funny story for you on drop knee seoi nage. When I was a kid all the old farts on the mat would complain that the only reason that throw even existed is a rule change taking away standing chokes. Before the change anyone even trying it would get there necks ringed out. So, spot on seeing how some throws are only in a sport is because the rules allow it.
Now a days you'll find the old farts teaching it to children as a way to game an easy win. At the higher levels you'll see Koreans engage in drop seoi's the most. They'll start with great fighting but once things get tough they default to drops. It's really annoying to see as it detracts from the beauty of the sport.
Dropping then becomes a crutch in a tight bind instead of working hard and figuring out how to drive up and throw. It'll also re-enforces bad habits in Judo. :|
Drop is like a sacrifice throw last resort when forced out of place it detracts from the beauty of judo
I think it all depends what your goals are for the sport.
If you're looking to win tournaments, you have to play to the strengths of the rules. In bjj the rules don't truly reward a takedown.
For self defense purposes, takedowns are a must because almost all fights start standing up.
Either way, I love takedowns and I love his knowledge of judo throws and wrestling takedowns.
This is my answer to the motivation problem, I'm motivated to learn takedowns because I'm studying martial arts and science for specifically for unplanned altercations.
Me too. I train BJJ but always have an interest in developing nice Judo take downs. So i have been training 2 times bjj n 2 times Judo a week since 3 years ago. Which helps progressing both arts very well.
Shodan here also does BJJ, frankly the instant gratification era also contributes to this. You will see a lot of new whitebelt coming into the gym first day and after maybe 5 mins of warmup, 10 mins of drill and then start rolling. And since a lot them have watched UFC, they know how to mimic a choke or arm lock on other new comers. Where as if you go to any serious Judo school, you'll be learn how to fall in the first 6 months...and in randori, most higher belt would just dance with white belts, so the satisfaction is just not there for new students. As a result, many people find it more satisfying to do BJJ than Judo. If you take the time to learn break fall seriously, taking a lot of falls with a skilled partner isn't a problem. I'd rather get thrown hard by other blackbelt with control than a few throws by a white belt who just drop me like a sandbag. To learn one throw it may take maybe 6 months to get your body to remember the movement, then another 6 to develop the muscle so that it works in one unit, then however long to learn how to apply it your own way since the execution is different depending on your partner. but if you only pull guard, it's like you only know how to drive one way because it is only half of the picture. Hence you'll see Judoka can adapt to BJJ much quicker than the other way around
They should give 5 points in competition for take downs. That would help at least in part with this problem.
Also, they should deduct two points to competitor forcing guard pulling.
That would help at least in part with this problem, I don't see any other way to fix this.
No buddy, less rules is always better than more rules imho
@@accadueoaccadueo945 In general I agree but it's not really an additional rule to award more points for a TD.
@@shanecarlson7488 if you add more points for a TD that's fine, but if you penalize guard pulling it's not.
You can't penalise guard pulling and then add more points for takedowns. Then it's just wrestling with submissions.
Disagree with this and this is coming from a wrestler could you also imagine In the gi how cheesy judokas would be being able to get 5 point td Lmfaoo ! There is just no logic behind a 5 point takedown that is not balanced at all
This makes so much sense as a wrestler. I’m our sport the fragmentation fallacy is often used when teaching wrestling on the mat, but takedowns on the feet are always taught alongside setups and finishes to complete the move.
Glad they are bringing this up. I see RUclips videos of jiujitsu world Champions that have the worst instructional videos on standing clinch and take-downs. I go to wrestlers for those skills
The problem is in order to apply it in the real world, you need to be able to take the fight there. A person with fast skilled hands and good takedown defense will equal or best someone with more submission experience.
For example, Gaethje vs Ferguson. However, Khabib could take him down and use his skill gap to sleep him.
Ferguson was a college wrestler so that’s not a good example. The better example would be Galvao vs Woodley. But there are instances out there of BJJ guys taking down really good wrestlers hence Maia vs Fitch or Oliveira vs Ferguson. There are many BJJ schools out there that teach takedowns. However, certain competitions kind of discourages it.
@@wayne47able yeah looking back that’s not the best example, but it still works. Gaethje could neutralize his takedowns and absolutely diced him in stand up. If Tony could’ve taken the fight to the ground I think he’d submit Justin, especially after seeing how easily khabib transitioned to his submissions.
@@wayne47able those guys worked very hard outside bjj to develop their wrestling, it didn't come from their bjj.
Laughed at "you're wearing a god damn jacket.". Great content as always.
This is why I think submission wrestling is a more complete system for control. I love BJJ. I trained it for years. However, it's awful if you have to rely on the opponent willingly going to the ground with you....
Wait where do I find out more about submission or catch wrestling? RUclips isn’t even pulling anything up
@@bradvincent2586 its No gi bjj
Easy solution: Force fighters to begin exchanges from a stand up position. If you try to pull guard and fail, or someone escapes your guard and stands up, you get stood up too.
I wishhh this would happen. Or at the very minimum, don’t punish the standing guy for stalling if he keeps backing away
We are back training in limited capacity. One of the blessings of this is that we have plenty of room to start every round standing. :)
My thoughts exactly- I can actually go hard now.
ive never seen john danaher so happy
Danaher should do ASMR or meditation videos. He has the most soothing voice.
Just put on his instructional
Sambo may actually be one of the best sports to take techniques from for us practicing bjj and I think Danaher knows it . A Ukrainian dude came to my Bjj gym and started taking everybody down WHILE WEARING A GI. He said he practiced Sambo for many years before coming to Germany. It basically about trying to take your opponent down while avoiding submissions
As someone else here said, it's normal for rolling to start on the knees. This is largely to do with space. Judo facilities tend to be large; bjj facilities are typically very cramped.
Not true j
Not so in general, most bjj coaches cannot throw or wrestle in addition to John's points.
The ruleset favoured ignoring takedowns. Its hard to see World Champion level BJJ Player blackbelts that can't execute a basic Judo throw with actual technique. It just takes 2 hours a week of your bjj training shedule to go to a Judo Club and learn and practice Judo. in 3 years a high level athlete would master the basics and even develop his own Tokui Waza.
On our school we have a designated day to train our wrestling, and we keep rolling to almost zero. If we do get a takedown we establish control, then stand up to ensure we get the reps and training in. And Ofcourse that is the class with the least amount of people because people don’t like how much harder it is than just grappling
Yea I train at a mma gym which is awesome because we have designated wrestling and bjj days in both gi and no gi which is awesome plus being a high school state qualifier I already know a bit on my feet
Thanks for the video, very insightful, I hope all the best.
These gaurd pullers better not get in a street fight.
His analysis is really on-point and brilliant.
I much prefer the grappling-focused MMA classes for takedowns. The quality of takedown training as it is done by most "pure" BJJ players is not good. Now BJJ coaches who also do MMA or coach MMA - those guys, at least in my experience, run much better takedown classes.
Imagine how many clubs there are in the world. And then think bout how many.clubs you been at.
Then you draw the conclusion that you might not me right.
@@guest0046 Right, that's why I said things like,
"I much prefer",
"by most",
"at least in my experience"
Rather than using absolute terms like,
"MMA classes are better",
"All BJJ players' takedown teaching is bad",
"It is universally a fact that.."
I was already being subjective and recognizing my subjectivity.
@@tzaeru That is the same as my experience. It's better if a BJJ club has a Judo or Wrestling coach who takes dedicated take down sessions, rather than trying to get a BJJ black belt who only half knows what they are doing with takedowns trying to teach anyone.
@Taylor ward ...?
5th problem: BJJ classes are in tiny gyms that always have a load bearing column in the middle of the mat...
This guy is smart afff, just hearing him speak at length for the first time and he's so spot on. Beautiful mind
I think another part of the coaching problem is that lack of break fall training. In judo, we spent quite a few classes just doing break falling before going into randori. In BJJ classes, if you make it to the position randori you’re done.
Very interesting conversation.
I adore John's systematic approaching.
I remember in my last competition, as soon as my opponent and I slapped hands, he immediately pulled guard. I just lost it and laughed hysterically at him then walked away. I said “what are you doing? Nah we don’t do that. Cmon, get up”. He obliged and we did stand up for about 2 min. Brought him down to Turtle, then D’arced him
Did everyone clap?
@@stupidandboot4507 can confirm his story. i was the turtle
I have a sinking feeling that if all BJJ schools enforced, say 50% of its practice and sparring time as "takedowns/throws" time, BJJ membership would plummet over night. Stand-up grappling is HARD, grueling, and dangerous. Part of the draw of BJJ nowadays is that its "chill." I'm not sure a lot of Gym owners could afford the risk of alienating their clients by turning up the intensity.
I did 8 years of judo and now everyone pulls guard in me in class and I can't use my judo. I'm going for the throw, oh you're just going to take the fall and flop on the ground?
Story of my grappling life. Hahaha
This coaching problem is honestly present in even lots of judo clubs. They teach you the throw then say, "Aight now go seoi nage that black belt"
Huge honor to see this video
Always impressed with Prof John's clarity... thanks for sharing!
The brilliance of Danaher is that he has the ability to explain Catch wrestling to Jiu-jitsu practitioners without them feeling belittled. Succeeds communicating in ways that so many others have failed.
Nice to see John seem really happy in this interview. Of course Bernardo positivity is contagious.
Simple solution in practice. Tell your partner “let’s start standing. I need to get better on my feet”
I wrestled 8 years. I hate pulling guard. Almost always tell my partner to stand up
This teacher is great, the kind of man who adds substance to martial traditions, very interesting talk.
You will address this teacher as the emperor and nothing less
well, the observation of bjj takedowns, or the lack thereof, is not a new observation lol
I'm a Judo BB.... I used a variation of sumi-gaeshi that John taught during his afternoon class to take 1st place in a regional tournament. He's a grappling genius!!!
@NK I dont get your point. Helio Gracie got grappling from judo guys, then he modified it for himself and made some improvements. If Danaher "got leglocks from Dean Lister" does that lessen his and his students accomplishments? What was the point of your comment?
I have been thinking about this exact question and this is surely a big cause why BJJ will never be a big spectator sport. But as soon as striking comes into play it all makes sense. So it works MMA and real life is seems.
The main problem in the BJJ standing game is that people start training BJJ at an age where they are no longer able/willing to get thrown to the ground a few thousand times at full speed to get good. Our kids classes seem to drill take downs a lot and most roll sessions start standing. As older damaged adults the best we can do with out serious risk of injury is that 1/2 speed 5-10 minute stand up session and then when we go live start from a position. Training reflects that and as a result it is hard to get good.
Make guard pulling illegal. Fixed
And think through whether a throw would be good self defense (videos of Helio teaching self defense include standard judo throws). Maybe two ippon throws = submission, like the pre-Olympic judo rules.
@@GoDaveGo I think having them be submissions is a little far but for sure make takedowns and throws worth more points. Maybe 4 points like a back take it mount.
@@DavidMedic447 That’s definitely a way to do it. Rationalizing the rules is essential, one way or another. What are we modeling? What would be effective in the reality of the situation we’re modeling? I would say that if a person could fight through a well-executed throw (and that is possible), we have to acknowledge that armbars are not fight ending moves, either, even if it were to fully hyper extend the elbow. A motivated person can and has continued to fight in both situations. BJJ, however, doesn’t seem to be trying to think through these issues. It’s a sport, so it doesn’t need to model reality.
@@GoDaveGo true but not every takedown is a fight ender. So you’d have to be able to differentiate between types of throws and have some be worth more than others.
@@DavidMedic447 I totally agree with you
This is beyond crucial!
This is Gold , Thank You
How about incorporating a overtime period in tied matches where first takedown wins instead of going straight to a referees decision that would change the motivation to have a takedown game.
That's actually a great idea.
They should score for hard takedowns and big throws. Also allow the standing person to just not engage in the guard. The guard player has to capture the guard.
Bjj ppl don't know the big throws
If you want a "MARTIAL" art, you need to keep the rulesets of the sport elements in line with realistic martial settings -- to the extent safely possible.
The number one thing about the motivation problem is that there needs to be some discouragement from pulling guard. Maybe its just that if you pull guard you have to sweep in a minute or your opponent get a point. Maybe pulling guard gives your opponent an advantage or two. However, you want to be really careful about this. Jiujitsu is about submissions on the ground. I don't think you want to stress the standing game too much.
Truthfully, I think it would be better to split every match into two "periods" and have one guy start on the bottom and then have the other guy start at the bottom or have some sort of other mechanism to take the standup out of the game.
Points should be taken if they pull guard. Then they are stood back up.
if you pull guard and you've pulled the other person down with you then you're good, but if the other person can walk away then you need to get back up.
Finally somebody that trains smart and doesnt jut repeat the same thing without a study.
The very simplest solution to this problem is to develop the immense grip strength of Greco Roman. It is not only directly applicable (standing, grounded, no gi, mma) it in and of itself is dangerous
What if the point system punished guard pulling? Maybe give 2 points to the opponent if one pulls guard?
Honestly, for pure sport BJJ I don't particularly see the problem some people not prioritizing takedowns.
If you have two guys who want to play top, they battle for the takedown. Two guys who want to play guard, they buttscoot battle. One of each, well then they should both be happy. As a wrestler, the only reason I'd be annoyed at someone for pulling guard is if I was planning to throw or footsweep them straight to side control.
For mma or self-defense, guard pulling is ridiculous because being on bottom is a definite disadvantage unless you have a massive skill gap, but I believe guard pullers know that.
Really interesting Review some great points.
I remember prepping for my first comp as a blue belt. I trained hard for takedowns and when it came day of competition, every single one of my opponents pulled guard… 😑
This guy's talking a lot of good sense: that third point in particular is something I recognize (I never did competition, so the first two don't apply to me).
When I did club Jiu-Jitsu I was thrown by black belts and you could feel who had the best technique -- but the first time a veteran judoka threw me I felt the difference: let's just say I was slower getting up. Coming to the sport relatively late in life, in my early 30s, I struggled with applying the throws I had learned as a training exercise into a sparring situation. I could execute a half-decent throw when drilling the moves, but having to do that in a sparring situation was a whole different story.
UPDATE: He actually nails what I was trying to see in this part of another video: ruclips.net/video/Swoni-e1CFg/видео.html
Not that I regret a minute of my training -- and the school I was lucky enough to go to took the standing game seriously, incorporating throws into moves that naturally ended on the ground. I only wish I'd started younger and gone deeper.
Bjj ppl don't understand the judo pain
The fragment fallacy applies to how I'm being taught BJJ too, ground skills as well. It always feels random.
Might help if you got more points for a take down. Two point for a take down, but also two points for a sweep. Makes more sense for a jits guy to pull guard and sweep them possibly give up two points wrestling. Maybe 3 points for take down?
It's all about the rules. Guard pulling nullifies all the takedown skills of the opponent.
Also, in most weight categories, bottom position is more desirable than top position except for heavy weights. It's easier to get submissions and easier to score from bottom for most lightweights and middle weights.
The reality is, BJJ rules are designed to encourage "boring" ground work, not "exciting" stand up, as groundwork is the focus of the sport. Wrestling and judo have tons of rules and referee guidelines (stalling penalties, gripping penalties, etc) to ensure safety and promote action. A referee might penalize you within seconds after seeing you repeatedly taking defensive actions, like blocking, finger grabbing, hunching over, pulling on the head, etc. If you don't do wrestling, you probably would have no idea which person is stalling or why one guy got penalized. Same with judo. It takes a lot of experience to notice these things, and it is also quite subjective. There is no way BJJ is going to double the size of its rule book and also require referees to attend extra week-long training sessions on how to issue penalties and warnings for stalling and safety on the feet just so we can see more takedowns.
It's not enough just to penalize the guard puller. You also need tons of rules on stalling. ADCC issues a 1 point penalty for the guard puller, and the skill level of takedowns is actually okay for most competitors (way better than IBJJF). But without stalling penalties and out-of-bounds rules, a lot of ADCC matches end up having long stretches of really boring and passive wrestling.
I think one thing that might work is to have a 2 minute takedown period where guard pulling is illegal. If there is no takedown in that 2 minute period, the referee decides who was more active and rewards them by allowing them to choose which position they would like to assume on the ground (ie, top of guard, or bottom of guard). Even if you wanted to play guard, you still have an incentive to be active on your feet in those 2 minutes and try to get a takedown. It would also incentivize everyone to have a good top game and bottom game, because you never know when your opponent will force you to play the position you don't want.
This idea is modeled after Greco Roman wrestling, where scoring from the feet is very difficult if two guys are similar level and both don't want to risk losing. After a few exchanges, the referee will decide which wrestler is more active, and reward him/her with the top of parterre. Unlike on the feet, the chances of scoring from the top of parterre are reasonably high.
It's pretty much universally better to be on top. Gravity is helping you.
This is why I think Judo is so important it can help you learn how to offbalance and set up other takedowns my judo isn't the biggest part of my game but it's the key to the main parts of it
Yes starting learning throws after 20, 30 is not easy. So starting after this age should we give up standing game ? or can we train just a few ? if yes which ones and which conditions ? note training in a swimming pool is also an option (ask the Fox 😉)
I started mma at 25 with a lot of focus on takedowns. Works very well for me, 27 now.
@@Oscarhagsjo 27 is very young,I'm 50 but started grappling at 25 and I find all my injuries came from judo and wrestling, very little from bjj or kickboxing. These injuries now restrict how much throwing I practice but it's still my favourite.
Going from stand up to ground is the highest risk area.
No matter how you plan it several hundred pounds are coming down all at once and it's up to instinct.
Protecting the neck and shoulders working with the partner to avoid injury are crucial.
Any gym owner knows where the liability is and that could lead to less standing work.
How about a double thick padded floor for throwing.
It's fun to roll in an inflatable kids jumpy jump.
What I do not like about Jiu-Jutsu. 1. It is a martial art, not just a sport. 2. Too many gyms focus on the Sport. They do not put enough emphasis on the fundamentals and self-defense. 3. Too many gyms do not take the time to allow their students to learn a technique. It takes time to learn and reps to understand how to pull off something in Jiu-Jutsu. Then a person needs to come back to it repeatedly to really know the technique. Most people can not do that in a day. A lot of gyms use the throw everything at the wall and see what sticks technique. When it comes to teaching 4. Too much emphasis is put on the competition. yes. it is a good way to test your skills and is a great thing to work for but a lot of the time it takes away from the martial art at the same time. BJJ/GJJ needs to have a balance. How many times do you see a high-level technique in a self-defense scenario? I am not saying that high-level techniques are bad. High-level techniques are what you see in competition. 5. Being afraid to use gloves in some gyms; you need to work on hitting and kicking to be proficient at defending them. Once more Jiu-jitsu is a self-defense martial art, not just a sport. 6. This is an opinion but mastery is a problem. A lot of people try to learn as many new techniques to win. I feel that is wrong you should Master the fundamentals before trying to learn everything. I would prefer to Master the 1-15 techniques that I could hit 80-90% of the time. Then training 10,000 that I kind of have an understanding of. That I may hit 1-10% of the time. 6. I could go on but it will be more on the teaching techniques and philosophy of BJJ/GJJ. Thank You
Drop seoi nage is an innovation that doesnt even exist in the gokyo, presisely, because you have to be very good at it not too get your back taken as danaher points out. However, the ref in judo wont save you. Ive seen lots of fights where the guy misses the throw and gets his/her back taken. The referee will only intervein if there s no progress
So what are the best ”safe” takedowns for older people?
What standup game? The rules favor sitting down so that entire section of the grappling art will just be an afterthought until a better ruleset comes along if it ever does.
1 rulechange needed. Stop penalising people for not contesting when an opponent pulls guard. Make them stand up. If they do it again penalise them for not engaging the attacking fighter
Are these two what peak physical performance looks like?
Is it an advantage knowing your opponent will pull guard
Don’t think the ref will save you in judo , if they’re going for the choke and still working the ref will continue to let you work. I got choked out as a whitebelt in a judo tournament going for the drop saio nage. However that’s because it’s almost never done correctly/ safely. When you turn and drop you should be uppercutting underneath ukis armpit where your bicep meets your forearm. Too many people do drop saio Nage while gripping ukis arm close to /around their neck to complete the throw. Resulting in the rear naked as a counter.
Yeah, I assumed (for simplicity sake) that he meant that when they drop and fail they would likely turtle and can be saved by the ref if nothing happens. But obviously, if you mess up a drop when the opponent has a good hold of your collar and they are able to stuff you then they can easily choke the living shit out of you.
I wonder what Danaher thinks about BJJ being newaza of Judo and No-gi grappling is just submission wrestling that focuses mainly on Judo newaza and catch wrestling moves, lmao.
Bjjers won't reply on this one.
@@channi58 yeah I usually don't get a response but when I do its brazilian trolls or gracie fanboys who love to praise their cult family for "revolutionizing" the grappling bullshit.
Does it honestly matter, though?😂 who cares what you call a martial art as long as it is effective and practical
bro you're beating a dead horse with this topic. of course danaher would know this lol
I like this video and agree with a lot of the concepts, but how is hand/grip fighting not effective for BJJ although you wear a gi? We have hands, wrists and arms to grab, no matter what a person's wearing. So, I don't see how wrestling grips aren't effective for a BJJ person.
It's not that you can't take those grips offensively, but that there are so many other grips your opponent can take to defend.
Case in point, lapel grips.
Gripping and hand placement/exchange is different with gi and no-gi. Of course it's not to say that one cannot do an arm drag in the gi and be affective it's just with gi you have a plethora of options available to you including breaks, maneuverability and control.
"Let's start borrowing from Judo then"
Uh, how to put this... that is what bjj does. Since, ever.
And don't get me wrong, I love how newaza is alive, well and prospering because of bjj, but it won't start at stand up game.
i wonder what his views on no gi standup is? I know he likes Judo throws in the gi but does he adapt them for no gi? Or does he rely on singles and doubles which seem to make up the majority of takedowns at ADCC?
"That makes completely sense John."
Gotta love Bernardo lol
i spent 3 and a half years in a bjj gym where the rolling starts in a sitting position. i wasted time not learning takedowns
History shows that Danaher has never, and never will he own a plain T-Shirt
I grew up with him, and even in primary school he always had a rash guard on. He used to get beat up for that all the time. Maybe that’s why he got into grappling....
9:47 why does bernardo look so nervous with john stroking his arm o.O
Nice background!
We don't call it wrestling, we call it "standing takedowns game", because it sounds longer. Danaher needs to fill his 20 minutes quota on every video.
Pretty scatterbrained
danaher nails it. people who grew wrestling or doing judo dont fear the flight or the scramble. there are so many opportunities that come from take downs and take down attempts. also there are tons of take down opportunities in defense. i think take downs and scrambles are a missing skill in bjj and mma.
He always identifies things in 3s. 😂
The 4 steps of grappling - Danaher
@@giriprasadkotte9876 no, it was his mistake. He's renamed it... The 3 steps of Grappling 😜
If takedowns are being taught as a fragment, does that make Jiu-jitsu a fragment of Judo, and Judo a fragment of its former self? 🤔