Dealing with Double Hits - Understanding HEMA
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- Опубликовано: 18 июл 2017
- Double hits are not "ties", you're both dead. Being able to deal with double hitters is a vital skill with any weapon set, from the Longsword, to the Rapier.
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Weapons used:
Longswords - Szymon Chlebowski
Messers - Ensifer
Rapiers - Darkwood armory hilt with Del Tin Blade (Nicole's) / Castille custom Thibault (Sean's)
Arming Swords - SGT Blades
Malicious Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
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Very nice video, thank you very much for sharing.
I think that fighting against a doubling fighter is an excelent way to train yourself, many inexperienced fighters are like that, there is a much bigger chance that you will encounter someone doubling rather than a master and this should be reflected in the training of a good swordman.
From a point of self-preservation training, its a great aid, one really can't expect that during a real duel everyone would have the amount of self awareness necessary to protect themselves enough.
Its true that its harder to train with a kamikaze, but you are bound to meet one sooner rather than later, better be prepared. Sometimes though (most of the time ), its better to avoid the engagement altogether and turn tail if you have the ability to do so :)
Yes, my thoughts as well, getting the experience to deal with someone who is inexperienced or in some manuals, "drunk"!
Some manuals explain what to do against an opponent like that. Medieval treatises, not so much, a lot of the German texts assume your opponent will parry, so you have to invent stuff to deal with people who double. The worst thing is that a lot of people are willing to take risks and go at absolute top speed once they perceive an opening, making it both difficult to defend against their strike and completely impossible for them to abort and defend themselves. Then there's the idea of a Nachschlag from German fencing, which basically means you're always aiming to throw several strikes in a sequence, which is also where a lot of the doubles come from. Even if the first strike resulted in a good bind, people just uncross and whack each other as quickly as they can. Thing is, if you try to stay in the bind against a guy who's really quick, he will actually nail you with his reckless but swift strike.
I was a kind of doubley figher until recently, and it does take a lot of effort to remove those tendencies. I made a conscious decision to become a safer fencer about a year ago, and it's been a long and hard journey to fix my problems. So worth it though, I can enjoy my fencing much more now.
I have a few things that I know work well to improve on your own (or others) tendencies to double. One thing is to do "one hit" sparring, where you set it up as a sparring session to "first blood", where one single hit is allowed, and being hit is the one thing to avoid. As soon as one (good) hit is landed, the session is over. If you want to, have a punishment for doubles. 20 pushups in full gear for both fighters, or 20 burpies, or whatever feels suitable.
Since you set it up as the way to "win" is to not get hit, the doubley fighter gets to think a lot more of how to defend, and also to attack in a safer manner since the worst thing that can happen is the double.
I show many of your videos to my Larp group. I think this one will be extremely helpful since many beginners turn into double hitters once they get over the initial fear of taking a hit.
If someone is a known double hitter, we usually just hit them harder until they get the message that if they want to stop getting new bruises every week, they should probably block instead of going all kamikaze.
Ahahah, I sometimes do this as well to be honest. I generally fight newer students at a much lower intensity obviously, and If they completely ignore my attacks just to say they got a hit on me...I just slowly start raising it back up step by step until they realize that defending themselves is pretty good idea ;)
Maybe not the most sophisticated way, but it works. Most of the time I obviously tell them their issue, and they fix it. But when I offer the the feedback and they still don't apply it...a time and a place for everything.
+Julian Schuetze Hey, sometimes the most basic methods work better than anything else. lol
I think attitude is everything. Training with new people who only want to hit you is really important. That is most likely who you would fight so you better know how to deal with them. It is entirely different than dealing with someone trained people miss a really important opportunity when they don't train with people that have annoying Newby mistakes. Grabbing the sword, charging, doubling, learn to deal with them.
Oh boy, this is a huge one for me as I have tended to double a lot. Some comments: it is perhaps natural for a new start before they can condition against that "flinch" reaction. The focus on striking rather than defence is so true.. I call it my "greediness".. I see a possibility no matter how small and want to take it without doing so safely. So working on patience, judgement, working to create a bigger opening, controlling the blade and distance and gaining a tempo..but I am still greedy.
I think for a doubler, it is important to somehow link what is going on inside, in the head, with what fencing is about..so for me at the moment, understanding that a fencing exchange is a bit like a conversation: one fencer says something, I need to listen and defend and respond appropriately. At some point, I will have the opportunity to speak, it is my go. Doubles are when we try to speak at the same time. By allowing the conversation, not doubling I then can appreciate it.. the sword play!
The other thing, being under pressure, or rather outside my comfort zone, tends to bring the doubles back..So trying too hard doesn't help..Slowing things down and reducing the intensity can help to develop the "flow" of the exchange.
..and something I am working after a recent spar. I'm a rather timid fighter, I turtle up, want to go back, to be honest passive-aggressive. I know this, I want some more stoutness, assertiveness in my fencing, to stand my ground sort of thing create pressure, move forwards. So I am giving myself goals,. So, there I am being stout, firm in the bind.. here I am! Wooooh, what is this, I get a strong response back.. a lot of response. Bout continues and we double a fair bit. Lesson learned, it is possible, probable that at the start of the conversation I was showing "LETS SHOUT"..if I want a polite, playful conversation, perhaps I need to tone it down?
your channel provides good vids! keep up the good work and thank you for some concentrated information
Good advice, thanks! 🙏🏼
I have found success in waiting for them to attack me from just inside measure. It tends to make them open up without any effort on my part.
Flogging might be a solution. If you do more then one double at the same day.
Thank you
This is one of the main issues I have always had with Filipino stick fighting, as they treat a stick and a machete in the same fashion. Self preservation is different when the weapon is a small blunt weapon or a heavy blade.
In our club (saber fencing), all double hits in sparring are punished hitting both fighter with a (blunt) saber to the shin :-)
1:31 John Clements lol
My problem with doubling has always been this: I see it as an unavoidable side effect of trying to drill aggression into yourself and others. Personally I have always been excessively cautious and reactive, and in trying to work this out of my system I have started doubling far more then previously. Yes, it's not a good thing and needs to be addressed, but I nevertheless see it as an almost unavoidable part of the training process.
There's lots of reasons for it. We've always had a pushup rule, 10 pushups for the first double, 20 for the second, 40 for the third, etc. The behavior gets weeded out pretty quick and really makes people recognize that something needs to change.
Julian Schuetze Sean looks so strong, I wonder how many times he had to do push ups :P
jk
All I know is that he can do around 105 in a minute ;)
Yes, sanctions can work I guess it may depend on the person and fighter For me, a tired, fatigued fighter...doubles! What works for me, stopping and discussing and analysing.. what did I do, how did I do it, what was the the stuff, or more likely not the the stuff going on in my head. Then do press ups :) We haven't done it but I think a Doubles Log would work...take your mask and gloves off and write it up, then we discuss!
Many doubles are because both parties want to keep the initiative. Often this happens when one goes in with the intend to strike around and then both strike around and hit each other. This often happens because the person with the initial plan to strike around wasn't able to pressure to opponent into a nach situation. For this Martin Fabians Nachschlag video is good. You have to create this pressure to occupy your opponent so you can strike around safely.
I've been fiddling around with more complex and advanced techniques as a way to deal with doubly fighters, but a lot of the techniques I like to attempt require blade contact, and my doubly sparring partners tend not to like blade contact that much.
I found in my experience that the higher the opponent's skill level, the more advanced devices you are able to execute. The lower their skill level, the simpler you have to keep it. Bar aggressively and strike.
@@HEMASimian Great advice. One of my hardest matches was against a less skilled opponent that always went for doubles. In the end I think I stepped back and slashed their exposed forearm whenever they entered range.
Alright, we'll call it a draw.
COME ON, YOU PANSY
what is the sword yall are wielding at 2:42 time stamp
self preservation is key, got it. what's a master cut?
The Good Doctor
Master cuts are 5 one tempo techniques from Lichtennaur lineage Longsword fencing treatises. They are designed to be safe ways to do an opening attack and then probably proceed to follow up actions from the bind.
There effectiveness in the modern HEMA sporting context is diminished slightly due to the fact that most opponents in gear is more concerned about hitting you when they see a blunt sword sword coming at their face as opposed to in a real situation where if a sharp sword was coming full speed in distance at someone's unprotected face, their only options are probably parry or get hit so they are much more likely to defend themselves as opposed to try to hit you back because they don't want to die, especially if their untrained or very minimally trained.
Master cuts still work in Modern HEMA but you have to execute them really well, the defense is built into the technique itself, but typically while you are climbing the hill to learn them you'll experience a lot of doubles due to incorrect distance, timing and less experienced opponent's lack of respect for the weapon.
I fought a tournament at an anime con and EVERYONE was doubling and the judges give points despite that.
ye
Noice.
Everyone makes misnakes :)
may the doubling swordsman be shunned!
Backround music is annoying and distracting.
Can't please everyone unfortunately. When we started, the majority definitely preferred videos with background music, so it's here to stay.
But Maybe if others reply to this (Both negative/positive feedback) maybe I can fine-tune what people like. What about it didn't you like?
I'm in the no-music camp. Being an amateur musician and a sound engineer, music can be quite an attention-catcher for me. But if it's really quiet like here, it's not such a big deal.