Traditional vs Charismatic
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- Welcome to episode seven of season two of Fr. Jake's video series "Faith in Life". In this episode, Fr. Jake delves into the notion of traditional vs. charismatic Christianity.
For more videos from Fr. Jake, visit umncatholic.org/resources
As one who needed the charismatic movement to find his way into the heart of the church, meaning that I am now a deacon, this was a blessing to listen to. “Both and” Amen!!!
So long as you revere the Eucharist and push for altar rails and Gregorian chant!
Great explanation, Father! The tightrope analogy was really helpful. Thanks for putting this out there.
Thank you for this Father 🙏🏾🙏🏾
L O V E this!!!thanks father I have always felt the same.Why can not you be both!!!❤
So beautiful! Perfect reflection!
great guidance Fr balance is so improtant
Well said, Father. Thank you.
Lovely balance. Very nice.
Excellent guidance, thank you! I like listening to the trad Catholic teachings, although I go to the English speaking Mass, and I've always loved my participation in a charismatic Mass.
Thank you Father. This is very helpful. I have always had this internal struggle between the two. I feel like I am both. There are time where I feel the Holy Spirit so strongely at the old Mass that is hard not see how someone can't be both. Of course we should pray at the old Mass respectfully and in private in our own "upper room," to pray in the Spirit. Both, have a focus on our Lord which should be the focus on all prayer. God Bless you Father!
I grew up in a charismatic catholic family. Recently I feel drawn to tradition, but sometimes I like the happy worship of the charismatic movement. Nowadays it a bit difficult in my family.
"il culto felice" ? Cosa intendi con questa definizione ? Un culto basato solo sull'emotività e il sentimentalismo ? Caro fratello nella fede, il vero culto cattolico non deve essere ne felice, ne triste ma quello che è sempre stato da venti secoli per tutte le generazioni di credenti nella chiesa !
I love this! God is the God of AND!!
Very balanced Fr. The good thing about your advice it, allows us to get on with being what we are supposed to be which is Catholic. In other word to concentrate on loving God with all our heart and loving our neighbour as ourselves.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:19 🚫 Avoid false dichotomies in the Church; being traditional or charismatic is not an either-or, but a both-and.
01:00 🌐 To be Catholic is to embrace Tradition and be open to the Holy Spirit; it's a harmonious combination, not a separation.
02:38 🤔 When leaning too much towards tradition, beware of becoming fixated on external elements, losing sight of the living tradition.
03:19 😵 Leaning excessively towards charismatic elements can lead to becoming disconnected from the traditional roots; balance is crucial.
03:46 🤝 Aim for a balanced and harmonious Catholic identity, avoiding divisive adjectives and embracing the unity of the Church.
04:55 ⚖️ Personal preferences should not turn into pitfalls; maintain flexibility, respect, and unity within the diversity of Catholic expressions.
Until about 20 years ago, you just never heard any of this "taking sides" stuff. There were a few "trads" and a few "charismatics" but the overwhelming majority were not either. The trads and the charismatics were waaaay out at the fringes. But you know what happened since then? So much of that "overwhelming majority" simply left, for a variety of reasons... and it makes those fringes much more noticeable than they used to be, and sadly much more noticeable by the clergy. So many parishes get yanked to one extreme or the other. And we that used to be the majority, who don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other... we have to parish-hop to find moderate parishes which are getting harder and harder to find.
I went to charismatic mass and trad mass nothing wrong with both.
Finally commen sense
What is the Holy Spirit?
It's educational but that's about all.
No problem with me being traditional and charismatic. My understanding of being Catholic is being universal or all-embracing in our expression of our faith and love for the Lord just as his love for us is boundless and eternal. So we should tread every avenue that would lead us to Christ whether it's in the left, right, center, above, below, front, behind or within.
Traditions aren't just an "external." I think of it this way - if there are things our forebearers did for a thousand years, one can say they were "workshopped" enough to know that they are an objective good. And perhaps our chaotic seeking for new music and ritual expressions of the last 50 years (leading to unplayed organs collecting dust and well meaning volunteers who have no guidance on what they should be doing) has not been as fruitful as we'd like.
If that is indeed so, then maybe some of the wild experimentation of the last 50 years has done some damage to the "interior" things of the faith. It is this, more than external trappings, that you'll hear as fears from people who are wont to use the "Traditional" label.
Bring back Altar rails
I feel stuck in the middle of this debate a lot..., with no interest in debating...
All that Fr Jake said is correct, but IMHO a bit theoretical - i.e. in reality, it's not gonna happen. Background - I've done all 3. Convert at a time when there was ONLY N.O., TLM totally non-existent. Later when family member severely ill, I went Charismatic - they seemed to be the only ones praying specifically and aloud for healing and deliverance. Then later I discovered TLM (different country).
So while what Fr says is true, i.e. we should not use / fossilise ourselves with labels. But here's the reality. The person who enjoys Gregorian chant, will cringe at guitar kumbaya folk songs, and short cuts (Eucharistic Prayer #2). Conversely, the N.O. folksy song loving type, will cringe at Gregorian chant and Latin. I'm not talking laity only. I know NO priests who roll eyes and say "THOSE Latin Mass types" (not realising I was one of them). So while we can all hope of some convergence, I don't think it will happen.
Having been born well before Vatican 2, I am more than a bit amused when speaking with a Traditionalist who was born well after it, about how fantastic the Mass was prior to it. They seem to have no clue that much of the "fantastic" had to do with the pastor specifically. It is also my observation (having attended a Maronite Divine Liturgy a number of times, with a pastor who was moving toward becoming a monk) and attending Mass both at a Benedictine abbey and a Trappist abbey numerous times that what many traditionalists want is a pastor/priest who is steeped in the tradition of contemplation - and the vast majority are not now, and were not prior to V2. Even comparing between the Benedictines and the Trappists is apparent. Attending a Vietnamese Mass or Hispanic Mass reminds me of following the Mass witha missal back in 1958 - I far prefer to hear and participate in the Mass in my language.
The charismatic movement is built on ‘emotionalism’, much like many Protestant denominations. The Eucharist is overshadowed by antics and histrionics.
The first church was charismatic. Charisms are not about emotion, they are gifts.
Not many young men will enjoy the charismatic sing song stuff that I remember my parents getting into. So glad I found a trad parish after a decade out of the church. I’ll admit it, its just the aesthetics of the NO/Charismatic stuff that I was exposed to that drove me out, and the dogma is what really matters. Maybe my experience was not typical of charismatic faith but its all I knew.
I think you were ignorant of the charismatics.. they in fact study more scripture than the traditionalists. less rituals
@@stevostevozz1168 I will readily admit my ignorance. The cringe songs and singing as well as the silly praying in tongues as well as other things turned me away immediately. I was only about 12 and someone asked me if I could pray in tongues. I did that gibberish sound just like them and they said ‘wow you can do it’. That really hurt my faith for years and I didn’t investigate further.
Also you are using the same arguments against tradition that protestants use.
@@AWSKAR there is always fake and real...if someone had explained to you using scripture and reasons for speaking in tongues then you would enjoy that gift from God as a Catholic. Most of us wre told they were from the devil without no explanation. It's a beautiful language your spirit pray to God alone and not for showing off
Are there more traditional Catholics than charismatic in places like Iran or China?
@@donaldkeith139 the Catholic Church in the book of Acts and Corinthians was charismatic then traditionalist took over a d the charismatic fire was quenched..we remained with a ritualist liturgical church but no spiritual vibrancy... basically we don't allow or we fight all charismatic influences...like the way we recognize miracle just the process of investigation is crazy and unnecessary..we are afraid that we can't control our charismatic brethren
We should read "The Book of Truth". It show all the events now happening in the Catholic Church and the world. It's true. Particularly heresies.
The church in the book of acts was Charismatic catholic then traditions took over we became traditional Catholics but we lost power and gifts of the Holy Spirit Beautiful thing is the Lord is baptizing his church again !! We shall once again be known as the Church of the Holy Spirit.
That's right!
Sorry I disagree.The Charismatic Movement has zero history in the Catholic Church.Using Pentecost is like saying the Mass should look like it did in the year 150.
Esatto ! Viene dai pentecostali ed è una pseudospiritualità che ha poco o niente di cattolico. Noi abbiamo avuto delle sante come Elena Guerra che hanno parlato molto dello Spirito Santo ma si tratta di cosa completamente diversa.
That is the whole problem, “Tradition”. We have tradition and we have the Commandments/Commands of God and of Christ. Jesus spoke about tradition, and the same problem that was taking place in the religious system of His day is taking place in the religious system of our day. Here is what Jesus said…
Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
This is also what Jesus said,
Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
So you see here, once again in our day we do reject the Commandment of God for the sake of our own “tradition”.
We have no obligation to keep tradition, especially when it makes void the direct Commandment of God. But according to Scripture we are obligated to keep the Commandments of God and of Christ.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And there is more that could be said. But I will leave it at this for now.
JESUS gave us both the Echarist and the Holy Spirit and we need both just as we were given 2. Parents in,order to,come into existence and to,live and thrive we need both,and if God wants us to have the holy spirit we must welcome him,and his gifts not just,a little something extra for those who like that sort of,thing but for all
Mi dispiace padre ma le due cose sono incompatibili. Prendete la corona del rosario in mano, inginocchiatevi umilmente davanti a una immagine della Santa Vergine e pregate in questo modo piuttosto. Lei in tutte le apparizione ha sempre insistito sulla spiritualità e culto tradizionali e MAI ha nominato il movimento carismatico. Perció la mia avversione per i gruppi di questo tipo è quasi totale. Io non sono tradizionalista ma sono d'accordo con chi dice che l'inganno pentecostale è pentrato nella chiesa cattolica e vi ha portato molte cose negative. Abbiamo 2000 anni di storia e spiritualità e non abbiamo bisogno di tutto questo. Nel movimento carismatico cattolico il cui gruppo più grande quì in Italia si chiama : Rinnovamento nello Spirito, ci sono alcuni aspetti CHE NON VENGONO DA DIO, o falsi carismi, oltre ad errori di vario tipo.
Thank you Father. This is very helpful. I have always had this internal struggle between the two. I feel like I am both. There are time where I feel the Holy Spirit so strongely at the old Mass that is hard not see how someone can't be both. Of course we should pray at the old Mass respectfully and in private in our own "upper room," to pray in the Spirit. Both, have a focus on our Lord which should be the focus on all prayer. God Bless you Father!