John MacArthur on the charismatic movement
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- Опубликовано: 15 янв 2012
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John is not denying miracles, or that they can (and do) take place, however the pursuit of miracles, healings, tongues and the prophetic has been grossly misinterpreted and misapplied by the charismatic church. God is sovereign, and HIS will, not ours, will be done. You are correct, our focus should be on the cross, life, love and power that flows from it, and the revelation of God through holy scripture, NOT through the pursuit of the supernatural in an of itself.
The problem is not the use of spiritual gifts, the problem is the current DEMONIC use of spiritual gifts.
Thanks. I recently went to a Charismatic church and I wasn't used to it, so I studied intensly. A lot of us have a phase where we want to see signs and wonders, but "faith is the evidence of things not seen." Not miraclulous gifts.
"You can go to the end of the book of Acts and you see healings disappear completely. People get sick and there's no one around to make them well." Uhhh. Totally inaccurate. Acts 28:8-9
I'm sorry you think this way, my experiences have taught me that God is the same God yesterday, today and forever, that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead also lives inside of me (and every other believer). While there are certainly abuses and cases of people getting carried away (much like in the church in Corinth in Paul's day), the Holy Spirit is very much active and working in the world, and signs and wonders are still performed where Christ's name is preached.. God bless,
Mark 16:17-18
And (A)these signs will accompany those who believe: (B)in my name they will cast out demons; (C)they will speak in new tongues; 18 (D)they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; (E)they will lay their hands (F)on the sick, and they will recover.”
And these signs will accompany who? Those who believe. Do you believe?
I also agree with what he says about how there are "manifestations" of the Holy Spirit that really aren't from the Holy Spirit. This is definitely true. There is some weird stuff out there. But to disregard everything and say that it's all from the devil is not accurate. I'm not putting MacArthur down, I think we need more preachers and teachers that speak about things he speaks on.
Well, the Bible says,
'“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.'
Acts 19:2,5-6
At 2:02 Mr MacArthur makes quotes in the air when he says "Baptism of the Holy Spirit, like it's not a real thing.... I disagree with him, on biblical grounds. "For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:5, Jesus speaking. There are some problems with Charismatic Christianity, but the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is clearly biblical, as any web search will prove.
Irenaeus (a.d. 120-200) bears witness to the presence of the gifts of the Spirit. He writes:
"We have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions, and prophetic utterances; others, by laying-on of hands, heal the sick and restore them to health" (Against Heresies, 2:32,4). If the gifts have ceased then what was Irenaeus referring to?
At about 6:20 he says there is no miracles, healings at the end of Acts. But there is healings in the last chapter of Acts "28". Did I misunderstand him?
Of course demons are here today, the bible says they are.
I have attended a Vineyard (John's Wimber's Vineyard) for the last 18 years and while I have seen a few things that might be considered charismatic, it seemed pretty much to me like a Baptist church where people wear jeans and have worship bands.
I been healed by God and a number of people I know have also been healed of some physical conditions. Not ever one in the New Testament got healed though (outside of the gospels).
No my argument is based on the whole of scripture taken in context, not just one event in one passage. The baptism of the holy spirit happens at conversion and nowhere else (I Cor 12:13). Tongues is always speaking a known language and was a sign to the unbelieving Jewish nation (1 Cor 14:22) and nothing else. It is not evidence of having been baptized in the holy spirit at a later date as the charismatics claim.
I don't know about you but I want to walk just like Jesus walked. He's my everything. Wanna be like Him in every way (so help me God). He is so amazing.
I like John MacArthur. I like how he stands firm on the Bible, what it says, having good sound biblical doctrine, standing up for the word of God, and his teachings. But I have to disagree with what he says here about tongues, gifts of the Spirit, apostolic gifts, etc. The bible does say that those things will cease but it never said that it was now.
1 Jn 4:1 "Do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but TEST them to see if the spirit they have comes from God, for many false prophets have gone out everywhere". 1 Cor 14:29 "Of the prophets, two or three may speak, while the rest exercise their judgement upon what is said. 1 Cor 4:6 "Do not go beyond what is written...". Clearly we are to judge, especially those who teach false doctrines.
thanks for responding. I think your argument depends on hypothesis; mine is based on the text of the Bible. I know tongues make many uncomfortable, and there are "Charismatics" that do some unbiblical things; But, tongues are in the word of God. If Paul's words in 1st Corinthians 14 were heeded, this would be less of an issue. Also, MacArthur says here that tongues will pass away. Does he also beleive knowledge will pass away (I cor 13:8)? I expect better hermeneutics from him.
It really irks me hearing this stuff while people are DYING and going straight to hell, demon possessed and full of sickness and disease and "some" don't care less. "Some" care more about defending their own "theology" rather than getting on their faces and getting the heart of GOD for these people and letting GOD operate through them to do what no man can do. These things are not just for "signs". I WAS dead on the side of the road 20 mins but was raised from the dead ...now I PREACH...
The arguments on this comment thread is exactly what the enemy wants.
I've learned that what I think I know today...tomorrow I find out I was wrong. We are all growing and making mistakes together. I find that these arguments on what we think we know only make us bitter. There is no Spirit of thankfulness and rejoicing in it. And that is how we are to make ourselves known, by our humbleness, thankfulness, and our joyess praises.
Bro, I love your videos... Keep uploading them. Also, find Christian Hedonism on FB. That's part of my web ministry. God bless!!!!! Also, what video is this from? I want to watch the whole conference.
Brother, I've looked up John 14:12 and Mark 16:15, and it does not say 'the apostles' specifically, it says 'anyone' who believes will do the greater works (meaning you & I should be doing).. Of course, salvation is the greatest miracle of all.. But God can also use and has used healing, miracles, sign & wonders to advance the gospel today.. It doesn't you have to believe report you hear, that's why you have the Holy Spirit, to discern what is and what isn't God..
I became a Christian out of the Bible with no Christians around. I asked for word of knowledge and got it. He has guided me for over four decades now. When I got off my ship I was appalled at how little of the Bible these church goers followed. I have never been a member of a charismatic church. But I have seen Christians try asking -- and get! That's gifts of healings, discernment, prophecy, word of knowledge and word of wisdom. Without these, how can you say you are spirit led?
1 Corinthians 13 - says when perfection comes? so has perfection come? cause one one was perfect and has HE come back?
Believers today do not drive out demons etc., but they could if they exercised full authority in Christ. The promise is there.In an age where Satan rules the earth with his devilish tools of New Age, where people are claiming miracles of all sorts, never were signs and wonders from God more needed, to draw people back to the power of God's Word, than today.
No problem. Glad you liked it.
If Cessationism is true, what does that mean? That miracles can't happen today? That miracle workings only took place in the apostolic generation? How is this consistent with Christianity?
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known
Aside from the charismatic theology they believe I don't have a problem with those preachers at all. They are very well grounded.
From Glory to Glory. Praise Jesus forever!!
"The 'perfect' is not the completion of Scripture . . . the 'perfect' is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ . . . the 'perfect' must be the eternal state, when we in glory see God face to face (Rev. 22:4)." - John MacArthur in the MacArthur study Bible.
This is the kind of discussion and of Q&A session where you do not rely on making appeal to authority in order to get the right answer, but actually study the Bible and see what is it the Bible has to say about a certain topic. Of course there will be differences of interpretation in regards to certain passages of the Bible and how doctrine is or is not biblically supported. That is why we have a different Pentecostal doctrine from Baptist and so on. So the Word is the final authority.
JOHN YOU ARE A MIGHTY MAN OF GOD! THIS IS THE TEACHINGS THAT PLEASES THE LORD!GOD BLESS YOU FOR ALWAYS SPREADING TRUTH!
I didnt agree with everything. HOWEVER his last statement was awesome! If those who are gifted in the apostolic giftings are real they will be biblically sound
And i echo the words of Paul...
Acts 7:51 NASB
"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Question: Who was he talking to in those passages?
Answer: The apostles.
Biblical context is a good thing.
Having said that, I never once said that God could not or does not "use healing, miracles, sign & wonders to advance the gospel today" as you say. Of course he does, on occasion. I just don't believe that people are gifted to do it themselves at will. And secondly, these things do not happen in the same frequency as they did in biblical times. That is a simple fact.
Pleeez tell me there's more of this!
Read Exodus 4 (kjv). Sign gifts were NEVER given to us GENTILES! Sign gifts were given only to benefit unbelieving JEWS! That's why every time in the Bible when you see healing, tongues, ect, there's ALWAYS an unbelieving JEW present. If you don't learn how to Rightly Divide (II Tim 2:15) God's words, you'll fall head first into that Charismatic crap
This fella sounds like he's full of unbelief
8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
It doesn't say they would continue until today either
I have many friends, who are very biblically and theologically sound and yet operate in the gifts of the Spirit described in 1st Corinthians 12, some people have abused the gifts, just as in Paul's day in Corinth, but if you notice the text, Paul does not tell them to stop operating in them altogether, but he lays down guidelines for orderly worship. Paul actually commands in 14:1 "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." God Bless
I'm confident I can speak to you as a brother in the Lord, but I am curious, where in the Bible do you find even one verse that supports cessationistic theology? Church History is a secondary argument, although I think church history throughout 2,000 years would also refute what you're claiming.. Scripture is primary. What does Jesus mean when he says "ANYONE who believes in me will do what I'm doing, even greater things than these" (John 14:12). Was our Lord lying or was he telling the truth?
The most theologically correct leaders of jesus day were the scribes and pharisees and they certainly did not perform miracles. In fact they orchestrated Jesus' crucifixion! it was the often theologically 'incorrect" disciples (to start with at least) who performed the miracles.
Just a thought: pious religionists quench the Spirit.
Go ahead, censor me, too! Great is my reward in heaven.
And like I said before You will not find any movement in the history of the church that is responsible for more blasphemy, heresy, apostasy, bad theology, scandal and perversion than the modern charismatic movement. NONE of those things can be attributed to cessationist thinking or John MacArthur. So go ahead and believe all you want. Just because you believe you can fly doesn't mean you can.
They may not disappear completely, but they do decrease in frequency.
Job 1:1 "Job was perfect and upright"
Genesis 6:9 "Noah was a just man and perfect"
Genesis 17:1 "The Almighty God told Abram to walk before him and be perfect"
II Kings 20:3 "Hezekiah told The Most High that he walked before him in truth and with a perfect heart"
John 17:23 Christ prayer to the Most High "that they MAY Be MADE Perfect in one"
II Cor. 13:9 "We wish your perfection"
Romans 12:2
Phillippians 3:15 "Let US therefore, as many as be perfect"
James 1:4
1 Peter 5:10 "make you perfect"
Cessationism is a dying position as miracles continue to multiply on the earth. Just as Christ promised, "These signs will follow ALL who believe in me..." (Mark 16:15) Miracles accompany the gospel, for the salvation of the lost, there is way more evidence both from Scripture, Church History, and personal testimonies of thousands that support the contrary to John MacArthur's position.
No miraculous signs at the end of Acts? Read Acts 28:1-5. Just because the narrative shifted directions doesn't mean there were less miracles or healings. Also, While I do agree that Benny Hinn has bad theology; it almost seems like MacArthur is saying that because signs and wonders are not validating his ministry, as a "pure and true teacher of God's Word," then signs and wonders must not be real. This guy is way off base. You can be Pentecostal and have good, solid evangelical theology.
Live broadcast every saturday at my church of healing testimonies. Fresh evidence & signs to confirm the Word for non-believers. Its sad many christian preachers choose to disbelieve Jesus in this area & millions of lost souls are going to hell because the gospel is being preached with human wisdom , instead of with miraculous power of the Holy Spirit.
MacArthur does believe in the baptism of the holy spirit. But he believes (as do I) that is happens at conversion when a person is born again. It is not a later second experience that people have to seek and than prove they have it by doing all sorts of crazy things like speaking in tongues.
There is plenty of reason to conclude that when you read this in context in ALL the gospels and see what the mission of the apostles was. I've been in church for 30 years and in a wide variety of denominations including the fruity charismatic ones. Not in a single one of those churches did anyone ever do anything in closely related to what the apostles did. So I guess according to your poor understanding of scripture everyone of those people aren't Christians?
1 Cor 5:12 "Those outside the church it is not my business to judge, but surely it is your business to judge those who are inside the church...are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you". Mat 7:15-16 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruits you will recognise them."
Sharing the gospel has also not been a normal part of the majority of Christians, but that doesn't make it unbiblical, for almost 1900 years, the church has done many things Christ commanded them not to do, and has neglected to do things Christ commanded them to do, a few of them is heal the sick, drive out evil spirits and to preach the good news where we go. Being open to the Spirit does not mean throwing away your brain or intellect, it means allowing Him to transform your mindset.
So tell us , do you think demons are around today or did the Apostles and early church kick them all out for good.
MacArthur can't receive the Kingdom like a little child - he's too intelligent for his own good. The glory departed from the Church just as the Scriptures foretold, so part of me can't blame MacArthur for looking at a Christian swinging from a chandelier, claiming to do so under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and saying this is corrupt theology. Both parties are wrong.
For some certainly and truly drive out devils...others have foreknowledge of things to come; they see visions, they speak prophetically. Others still heal the sick by laying hands on them, and are made whole. Yea, moreover as I have said, the dead are raised up and remain among us for many years. And what more shall I say? It is not possible to name the number of gifts which the church has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ...-Irenaeus, A.D. 180
Good question!
I think the reason it doesn't occur as much is because, as I had mentioned earlier, we simply do not ask enough. Instead, just accept that if someone is dying of cancer as the will of God. I see sickness and disease not merely as an opportunity for God's Kingdom to advance through divine healing, but also as an expression of His character, that is God is Healer. Even though there are false teachers and false miracles, I also have no doubt that true ones are multiplying at the same time..
I'm beginning to come to some conclusions of my own regarding the Charismatic movement. I think the sign gifts have ceased, like miraculous healing and tongues. But I will NEVER assume any signs or wonders are false or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit simply because it happened. In fact, if the signs and wonders point to God, I give Him praise for them and move on! But if signs and wonders point to any MAN, I cannot say that I'd be in agreement with that...
The Spiritual gifts active during the ago of the Apostolic Church, which God used to bring unbelievers to himself.
Peter told the crowd why d 120 disciples look drunk is because they are filled with HS, seeing visions, speaking in tongues coz it is now the last days according to Prophet Joel.(Acts2:14-20). So how can tongues ceased if we are still in last days? How bad can John's theology be? The truth is tongues ceased in 600AD to 1500AD during dark age of catholic church - many wrong teachings eg. pray to Mary & angels & corruption. When Martin Luther came,he had not understood Mark16:15-20&Acts 2:14-20.
I'm so glad you asked! NEVER FORGET 2 Corin 11:14 (kjv). Judas performed all those "miracles" and he was a devil the whole time. That's why context is so important. Let's take the "healing and casting out demons" you just mention. In the Bible, there's only ONE purpose for signs, wonders, and miracles such as these (Exodus 4 kjv). It's ONLY done for the Nation of Israel (Jews seek a sign). That's why EVERYTIME you see these signs performed in the Bible, there's ALWAYS unbelieving Jews present.
Whoa!!! Careful there sir!
Hmm you should try Mark Driscoll. He's a theologically sound Charismatic and he is wonderful! I, being nearly a cessationist, go to Pastor Mark often! I have his book "Doctrine".
A good book on how the Roman empire hijacked the church, destroyed the house churches, banned the gifts, banned deliverance and even banned the Bible is:
The Healing Reawakening by Francis MacNutt. Francis had been a Catholic priest before he married, so writing this historical account was painful to him. It is a thorough indictment of the Roman church.
Make sure you check out the "Charismatic Chaos" sermon series at gty.org. It's a free download and well worth it!
MacArhur has taken the scripture out of context. Study out my last post in the Bible instead of some man's commentary. The best interpreter of scripture is scripture. The best commentary on scripture is scripture.
Nobody today has the power to do what the apostles did in the early church. Period. Nobody is commanding people to be healed with instant and perfect results, nobody is raising people from the dead. It is not a normal church experience and anytime anything miraculous does happen today is ONLY when God does it himself according to HIS own good pleasure, and not ours. Charismatics needs to stop denying it and be honest with themselves for once.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I have no problem with that at all. God still heals. I just don’t believe that people have the ability to heal sick people themselves. Miracles do still happen when God himself intervenes directly, but nobody goes around turning water into wine at their own will. This is the problem with charismatics. They don’t really understand what’s going on.
What he is not saying is that those churches were a'dying, the young were leaving in droves.
The evangelical could not deny the the word of God..but they didn't like the manifestation of it.
Not to say there are no problems, there were problems with the older churches.
It does not say anything clearly about being the current church age. Study shows that this passage as originally prophesied by Joel is in reference to the millennial kingdom right before the Day of the Lord, and this event in Acts is a pre-fulfillment of that. You forget that verses 19-21 clearly indicate events that are certainly not of the church age but of the Day of the Lord. This passage does not support charismatic claims.
I agree with you that gift does not come from within a person, it comes from God (through the Holy Spirit). Even the Apostles did not do miracles in of themselves, it came through the Spirit of God who lived inside of them. I never would want to claim that any human could heal a fly or even so as much as plant a seed in someone's life, but I think the whole point is that it's God who does miracles and choosing to do it through fallen, sinful, yet redeemed people like you and me.
I think John McCarthur was referring to 2 Timothy 4:20 where Paul was talking about Trophimus, whom he "left in Miletus sick." But anyway, we can agree that the greatest healing will be after God's children die and go to Heaven and all sin and sickness will be gone.
yes Order the book "Charismatic Chaos" from John MacArthur's web-site grace to you. or order it on Amazon
"12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then FACE TO FACE. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." (1Co 13:12) Tells me that Paul is talking about when we shall we with the Lord. Paul is also mentioning himself ([...] then I SHALL know him [...]) which indicates it can't be the bible since he died long before the bible was even completed. Secondly, I don't see how 'knowledge' (v. 8) has passed away along with tongues and prophecies? //God's grace be with you!
@oneandahalf39 True, there is no explicit verse that says “no more gifts, apostles”, ect. But there is plenty of exegetical and historical evidence to prove the apostles and miraculous gifts only existed in the early church. In fact, there is more evidence to suggest this than the opposite. Once you understand who and what the apostles where, and what their mission was, it is easy to understand the rest. The charismatic movement is a modern man made abortion. It has no root in church history.
Sorry about 6:17 min.
Indeed.
I have been listening to John MacArthur's Videos and I like him and, so far, with the exception of the issue of cessationism I agree with what I hear from him. There is no question that the Vineyard went overboard with "Signs and Wonders" at times but I think those of you who attend John's Church would be surprised at how conservative Vineyard preaching and teaching is: It is very close to your own from what I can tell.
What exactly does that look like? The only thing I've seen are Bible-believing Christians praying in the name of Jesus and seeing demons cast out and people recovering from illness by the power of the Holy Spirit..
It's worse to blaspheme the holy spirit by attributing things to him that are not of God
accepting Bad theology .....gives way to compromise on all levels
Amen Jasun
We don't know the full extent of what was happening in these two situations. You seem to be making a doctrine based on what the bible does not say. You just don’t know. If anything, these two instances you mentioned above are evidence of these gifts gradually being withdrawn while today they are gone altogether as healings do not simply happen the same way anymore period.
some church preach their experience (lack of healing)instead of preaching God's word,and let experience rise up to His words. In Hosea 4:6 ,God says my people perished because of lack of knowledge. Is there any scriptures that say sometime christians perish because Jehovah Rapha didn't heal them? Lack of knowledge to me can be interpreted as unbelief, ignorance, wrong healing doctrines etc. This explains why full gospel churches who taught healings to their congregation has greater success!
Even though every Christian is given a spiritual gifts, there are no apostles today and normal church experience shows that nobody does spectacular miracles today such as raising the dead or instant healings. It just doesn’t happen. God may still do miracles himself as he pleases, but nobody is gifted to do so themselves.
What charismatics don’t understand is that Jesus is our cornerstone, the apostles the foundation, and the believers in Christ are the stones being built upon the the foundation laid by the apostles. For the charismatics who claim that signs & wonders occur today I ask you this: Why would God need to relay the foundation? There’s a conflict in logic here. You can’t lay a foundation on top of the foundation that has been laid, nor on top of the stones already present within the church.
You bet!
Verse 12 shows us what v 10 means. In both verses we have that which is in part and that which is perfect. BOTH are mentioned and in verse 12 we have the THAT WHICH IS PERFECT explained and it is when we see him face to face. It means what it says and says what it means. God has NOT changed. People have tried to change the gospel and to make "another" gospel that conforms to their unbelief but it doesn't change that GOD Is just as just and loving and kind and still heals saves and delivers.
Let's examine a short list of excuses "continuationists" make for God's failure to keep up what He used to do on the level at which He used to do it.
1. He really is doing it, you Christians are just not looking in the right places.
2. He really is doing it, He's just not doing it here in the First World.
3. He really is doing it; see, I know this lady who was prayed-for and got better.
4. He would really love to do it, but unbelief is stopping Him.
Speaking in Tongues is real... don't let the hardness of heart keep you from ALL God has for you! Your speaking against the Holy Spirit not men... !! I will take Holy Ghost Fire... not John's Strange Fire.
lets now move onto the fruits of the Spirit should go to now because we have now put of childish ways and come into full perfection has come fully and clearly. Or is he saying that only the most sound theology keepers would be able to perform these things and to do so you must be a keeper of perfect theology? And that is made possible because perfection has come? But are we really keeping it if he perfected us?
When it says "For we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face," face to face would mean seeing in the mirror (the Bible) clearly. I'm aware of these verses in 2 Corinthians. In fact I think this supports my argument because it compares the message to Jesus's face 2 Cor 4:6. 2 Tim 4:15-17 Shows Scripture is a clear form of Revalation. Now that we have the full Bible, theres no NEW revalation to be done. It's complete according to Rev 22:18. We can now be "mature in understanding" 1 Cor 14:20
Not to mention they have to argue against 1,900 years of church history where nothing sensational ever happened and only cranks though otherwise. Cessationism IS biblical. If this was happening before 1906, we wouldn’t even be talking about any of this!
Jesus operated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as listed in Isaiah 11:2. Pray for those. You can have them if you are a Christian.