Thirteen Reasons Why Has A Problem With Consent | video essay | full book analysis
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- Thirteen Reasons Why by Jay Asher is a work of childrens literature that is often credited with "starting a conversation" that the author himself had no actual place in. As a result, the plot of the story is at times confused, at times ignorant, and almost straight through just nearly incoherent. I've been wanting to talk about this for, like, seven years, so I finally did.
SOURCES: docs.google.co...
RESOURCES:
988lifeline.org/
www.nimh.nih.g...
www.rainn.org/
As a therapist, I hate that the message being sent is that everyone should talk about their trauma. They’re actively sending a message that goes against many best practices in treatment! You do NOT have to talk about your trauma to heal it and many studies show that this can lead to worsening symptoms in some people. ESPECIALLY if you are talking to unsafe people!
Hey. Sorry for replying to an oldish comment. I'm curious though, does this also apply to during therapy? I've been to therapists who expect a full account of an experience as to adequately help. I don't really like doing that but assumed it was necessary or standard practice. Is it?
Are you able to respond and clarity about Francis’s question? I have the same question. Most of my therapists have wanted a full account of my trauma in detail except for my last one. Because my last one didn’t ask for that, I felt like she wasn’t interested in knowing my issues on a deeper level and everything felt too surface level. I felt like a made a little progress, but very little for the amount of appointments we had. So was my last therapist actually following best practice and my others weren’t?
@@frances9975 sorry I missed this question. A lot of this is honestly dependent on the situation and the therapist. It is absolutely not necessary to go into detail about traumatic experiences. While more information can be helpful for clinician to better understand what is going on, it’s definitely not something that is required. Now I may need to know whether certain things have happened I.e. sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc, and like how old a client was and maybe like who was the perpetrator. It also depends on what the client is struggling with too. I’ve had some clients that were kind of stuck in their trauma and couldn’t stop talking about it so the first thing we did was to focus on the present and not think of the trauma. I’ve had other clients to completely ignored their trauma, and pretended like it didn’t exist, so maybe they acknowledged it..
@@bunnylacy2097 if you felt like you weren’t making progress, then it’s possible that she wasn’t interested and maybe not that great of a therapist or that the report wasn’t there. when treating trauma, The first step is to establish trust, safety, and stability in both the therapeutic relationship and the client’s life. Then, if everything is stable and safe, we can usually start working on how the trauma affects you today without necessarily rehashing all the details. I do a lot of somatic/polyvagal/mindfulness work with my clients so basically learning how to feel safe and present again. When we focus on talking about our trauma and the details, often times, it can be re-triggering, and only serve to reinforce those memories in some cases. I’ve had clients that I’ve had to bar from being able to talk about their trauma because that’s all they could think or talk about and they couldn’t move forward from that. I’ve had other clients who felt catharsis from finally being able to talk about things that they had never talked about before. But everyone is so different, it’s very individualized.
"I have a question. That PSA was bad"
"That wasn't really a question"
"That wasn't really a PSA"
I am an adult who was hurt as a child by adults. I won't go into details here, but my Autism diagnosis and Special Ed. status enabled them. While I agree that there needs to be a release valve, I was less irritated by the school counselor failing Hannah than by all of Hannah's other reasons being children. In the same way that many men and boys have to learn there's more to SA than the stranger in the bushes with a weapon, many adults don't seem to recognize that there's more to teenage misery than bullying by peers. They can recognize when child abuse is portrayed cartoonishly as unrealistic, but instead thinking "the way adults most commonly hurt children is more nuanced and subtle than that and less likely to be recognized", they conclude something more like "child being hurt by adults is overdone and unrealistic and pretty much never happens." This means that the villains of the 'realistic teen novels' I read growing up were almost always other teenagers. It made me distrustful of my peers. It also left me feeling unseen, like the things that happened to me weren't worth talking about. If they couldn't be possible because adults don't hurt kids, then there's no point trying to tell someone, because no one will believe the impossible. And if no one is going to recognize them happening to me in the first place, no one is going to stop them from happening.
taking a moment midway through to say how much i appreciate the short pauses between your thoughts being left in. those few seconds that people tend to cut out of "dead air" allows thoughts to sink in and for some introspection, instead of rushing through the whole thing, leaving little room for the viewer to process in-time.
i really appreciate this video because i've seen countless videos about how the show is "bad", but none that really confront the ideas that make it harmful in a meaningful way. i never read the book, so i appreciated that insight as well. also thank you for the content warnings!
It's Kind of a Funny Story was also a book that mattered so much to me as a kid since the topics it covered were very personal to me. I think I first read it in late middle to early high school (I remember being around 13-14). And it would be a few years later that Ned Vizzini would take his own life. At the time, I was saddened in the distant way you would be as someone who loves certain pieces of art only to learn the artist in question is no longer with us. As an adult who is now a little older than Ned was when he took his life, the memory of his passing hits even harder. Continuing to survive has really just hammered home to me how young Ned was when he felt he couldn't anymore.
Sorry for the ramble. I really loved this video and your thoughtfulness toward the subject matter. I hope your channel gets way more attention, as you really deserve it!
its so refreshing seeing someone actually getting mad at a man who crosses boundaries like that. a lot of ink is spilled, rightfully, on those who truly violate consent in obvious ways. but these 'sub criminal' cases are the ones that people are generally happy to forgive and dismiss as not being very serious or dangerous when theyre probably the most common form of sexual harassment (and a pretty common form of workplace harassment in general). jay ashers not a criminal but i also dont think it matters. hes got no business writing about these extremely delicate issues to vulnerable audiences.
as an aside, the removed/re-edited scene in the show is by far the most triggering thing i have ever seen on a tv show. i could not BELIEVE that was allowed to air like that. i didnt think they would show the actual event itself, a HUGE no-no in portraying these mental health topics. well, its a no-no if you want to PREVENT harm, anyway. to end positively, ive been slowly going through your videos and im so glad i randomly found your channel a few weeks ago!
7:12 Something about an actor casually reading “Watching this show tests my strength as a survivor” without protesting is strange and vaguely upsetting. How many people’s hands did that comment have to go through, and not one of them picked up on how dark that is?
I’m only a few minutes in but so far this is an excellent analysis, I assumed this was a much larger channel! Thanks for the video!
I totally agree!!!! I didn't really get into in this version of the video my big thing about the show I had where they brag about talking to professionals but I think that they didn't listen to them about anything important or other than how to truly upset because I can't imagine a therapist telling them those promotions were a good idea!! it's so so weird. Thank you so much for watching!!
TW abuse history
My context with this show is that my abuser talked about liking the show to me after I'd already escaped her, but still talked to her because I have issues. This same abuser who isolated me for 4 years and guilted me into staying with threats of suicide. Really says more about her now too how she sees things with me i guess.
CONTENT WARNINGS:
standing context for the entire series
-mentions of suicide
-mentions of sexual assault/harassment
more specific things you can skip if you don't want details:
27:49-28:53 - more discussion of the portrayal of the death scene, leads up to me revealing that I did not finish watching the show and decided to read the book instead.
36:13-37:40 mentions of Ned Vizinni's death
Thank you so much for this!
This is a super long video so I’m not sure if you get to it later (I’m 20 min in at this point) but Jay Asher, the author of the book, has been blacklisted from several writing conferences due to allegations of sexual misconduct. At the very least, not a great dude
Holy wow you are so much smaller than I thought - your videos are soo high quality I thought that you were a Much bigger channel!
As i was hearing the summary of the book, it seemed to me that the writing is very victim-blamey towards hanna baker and i wondered if maybe the author himself was some sort of bully (and did not realise it, because his definition of bullying was as he said "too narrow")
AAA I love listening to your videos while knitting! just starting this one and very excited to hear what you have to say. this came out when i was in middle school, i remember there was a push to get it banned? i never watched the series but vaguely remember how absolutely awful it made me feel lol.
I love all your suggestions (omg HOLES, such a fantastic read it still holds up) could you also do Ella Enchanted? I really loved the book and I feel like the movie missed the point of the book’s message
THANK YOU!!! I LOVED Ella Enchanted, I definitely want to reread it and do a video about it! I think it probably will be part of a larger video where I talk about other GCL books too because, and this is potentially amazing news for you if you haven't seen it/found Laura Crone yet because this is one of a bunch of videos I directly can point to and say "she made me want to make video essays and mine pale in comparison" I remember loving from just before I decided to start making videos, Laura did a full hour about this that felt like sitting in a room with my 12 year old self just crying in agreement the entire time lol
ruclips.net/video/F5VZSQQVwyU/видео.htmlsi=Uw58JG34ykWxFg6c
@@ophie-dokie the way this suggestion just made little girl me absolutely squeal! I knew finding your channel was exactly what my heart needed. Thank you for all the time and work you put into your videos, they are so entertaining and I’m very much looking forward to seeing you and your channel grow💜
ooo i loved its kind of a funny story, so cool seeing that here! i went to a few psychiatric hospitals as a teenager and i really felt like i connected with that movie a lot, it was one of my favorites.
i had no idea the author committed suicide. thats so fucking heartbreaking man.
I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this show and the comparison to some other writers that cover similar topics. I am someone who was an adult when I watched 13 reasons why. And I actually never read the book. I enjoyed the show for the most part and appreciated some elements of it. It did make me think a little deeper about certain perspectives and how we, as humans, often only see one side of people. But with that said, I feel like there were many flaws, and when comparing to those that do it better with sensitive topics it is only more evident! But I think one of the things that bothered me the most was how they tried to give us different perspectives of Bryce, Justin, Tyler, etc. The whole showing that people are more than just one thing or whatever. But instead of that, they tried to make it like you can be a r*pist and still be redeemable. Like I'm okay with seeing back story. With seeing how someone ended up being a certain way. But it felt like we were supposed to forgive these people and even feel sorry for them and forget what they did without them having to do any work to change or be better? That's not a good thing to show people. Let us see real accountability and change if you're going to go that route.
To add to that, I HATED how they made it seem like Clay was in the wrong for actually listening to Hannah and leaving when she asked. Clay, as a teenage boy, was doing so good with consent and checking in the entire series, so it really bothered me that they tried to make it seem like it was actually a flaw and he should have pushed.
Can we please normalize hearing people and doing what is asked instead of assuming or reading between the lines? Like, PLEASE. No one is a mind reader. And had they worded it differently even, like "clay, I wish I had done things different, I shouldn't have told you to go. But thank you for being one of the people who actually did listen to me"
And also, HUGELY problematic to have a revenge su*cide plot entirely. And some argue that's not what this was. That she made up her mind and only wanted everyone else to just think more on what they've done and how they act going forward. And sure, some of them did need to thibk about their actions and do better/be better. But this AINT how that should have happened. Plus maybe it doesn't matter to some people. But I always go back to the fact that they are playing young teenagers. These are undeveloped minds that are prone to making mistakes as they grow and learn to be better people. I thibk most of us dealt with some form of hell in school, and I've seen a lot of those people grow and become really good humans that were not so nice. Not excusing the bullying, as much as I am just trying to say a revenge plot is never the right answer.
After listening to this whole video, obviously, I have a lot of other thoughts. But those were some at the top of my head that I thought I'd share!
Again. I don't hate this show, I've watched it twice. Once when it first came out, and then again, when the last season came out (I wanted to refresh). It's not one of my favorites or even necessarily good. But it did hold my attention to at least finish it.
But I will say it didn't make me want to read the book. I love a lot of young adult authors that I've been reading since I was young. As an almost 31 year old. And it's wild how some probably shouldn't be writing young adult. Thankful for the ones that really seek to not only understand teenage minds but also write in an unproblematic way that better shares postive ways to handle these awful things that can and do happen.
Anyway, I'm a newer follower, but I've really enjoyed the videos I've seen you post! I have to watch your fosters video next because it is so problematic, but I've loved it and rewatched it many times 🤣🤣
I think Netflix should remove these and I don't generally think removing content is always the answer but it seems correct for this show.
I haven't read 13 reasons why nor watched the series; at the height of the hype I figured I was mentally ill enough without needing the additional stress of anything that wasn't an escape from my own head, and then all the video essays about the series came out. That being said...
Based on how the story is framed to the audience, through Clay as a narrative framing device, it feels like it's being used to tell the audience how they're meant to feel? Rather than trusting the audience to form their own opinions based on the events on the page? And idk. That just. Feels both condescending to the audience but also insecure in the messaging and direction of their own work. When you need to tell.someone how they're meant to perceive or react to a piece of writing, that sort of defeats the purpose. Stop gaps any chance for the audience to have any genuine reaction at all, and in a work like this that's meant to "start a discussion", it reduces the conversation to a few scripted lines that don't actually delve into the topic or help anyone struggling outside of the rigorous confines of the situation presented. Nothing in 13 reasons even begins to speak to why I began experiencing suicidal ideation, and would probably just make me feel further invalidated and discourage me from getting help more than I already was.
I subscribed after watching your Swoop video, & now am so happy that I’ve started watching your older videos. ❤ I know somehow that it was the author of Speak, when you started talking about her. She is a person with strong integrity & a very skilled writer, it makes me furious that her work is not more famous than Jay. Who frankly failed upward. And just wow I didn’t know all those things about him from the way he speaks about his writing & fans who send him such personal letters. Then the reveal toward the end that he’s a sex pest just blew me away but yet also made complete sense based on how you detail how unempathetic his writing is & lack of understanding consent.
I look forward to listening & watching more of your videos! You’ll see more comments from me!
Thank you so much!!! I completely agree, Jay Asher failed upwards and Laurie Halse Anderson deserves every bit of credit that man ever sucked up for starting conversations and engaging thoughtfully with children! I'm planning on rereading a few of her books and doing another video just about her without having to talk about this sex pest also because I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed rereading Speak. especially because I did it right around the same time as reading 13 Reasons Why and 13RW took me so much longer to slog through
I can kinda understand counselor reacting badly and uselessly because it's not infrequent experience and it also feels validating. Need for trusted adult or not. But yeah maybe lampshading that there're understanding adults would be helpful. Idk. I faced only betrayal from adult figures and was forced to dig out myself on my own with occasional support of the peers
*sees the runtime is the length of a feature film* LFGGG
Omg the book Speek helped me so much
All I'll say is that im glad I was already out of high school when this show came out because it would have been really unhealthy to view- also I'll watch any length of these videos!
Where are the video essays you mention linking? I really love this video essay, but you keep mentioning links I can't find :( I might just be missing them, but I don't see the video essays explaining why having Hallucination!Hannah becoming the main character after her death is a bad thing to convey? I'm excited to have a 'further reading' section, if you will, but I can't find it, the sources doc doesn't seem to link them?
(I've been trying to get into your essays for a while now since seeing you on my recommended and subscribing a bit ago and starting here was honestly not a bad choice!)
omg thank you!! you're so right. I swore when I was researching i had made a whole playlist and then I forgot to link it and now I can't find the playlist!!!! am going to recreate it today and add to the source but the specific video that was talking about hallucination Hannah being a bad idea I believe was Amanda the Jedi, possibly this one? ruclips.net/video/FX6v82SGulU/видео.htmlsi=u3BxPp2sqH5I0-VZ - my other favorite 13 Reasons video essay series is from Taylor J Williams -- though be warned I'm pretty sure he does use imagery from the bathtub scene in the first of his videos, I think that one might require you to click yes on a content warning before it plays but I could be wrong.
@@ophie-dokie Thank you for the reply!! I love Amanda the Jedi and I didn't realize she did a 13 Reasons Why video?? that's so cool. I'll keep that in mind about the other one. Thank you!
36:38 i never knew this about ned...
This feels like a cynical take and nothing I can prove
But the timeline of the book is right when my adult cohort on LJ had way too many people defending upskirting. Or if not outright defending it then excusing it in contexts of that one Reddit board.
I’m not shocked they changed it, I don’t think nearly as many people in its intended audience could excuse that now.
This book/series is a poor example of mental health