It was great collaborating with you on this review Kane. Great job covering the sword from all angles. Looking forward to our Balaur Arms Alexandria collab as well!
Amazingly made sword for the price! So many kriegsmessers (and similar swords) are too expensive for most of us to afford, so having one that we can (even if the quality isn't quite as good as the really expensive ones) is a game changer. Great review by the both of you! Was quite lengthy, but the details you guys went over were seemed necessary for potential buyers who are interested. 👍
Many thanks! It was a lot of fun to collaborate on this review as well as analyzing this sword and cutting with it. It’s an incredible offering of a kriegsmesser. Maybe not perfect, but it got pretty close!
I placed a back order on this sword immediately after watching your review and alientude’s. Can’t wait for it to be back in stock again. Thanks for this review.
I couldn’t help but notice that your other Messer that you’re comparing to the video looks a lot like the Gustav From Landskenct Emporium. I have one similar to that one, I got to say it works pretty well.
Indeed. I love Landsknecht Emporium’s work including the Gustav! I’m glad that there’s another reliable maker of messers on the market and the prices are reasonable.
Stand-off? You mean between Peter Johnsson, the designer or Albion and the designer of Balaur Arms at Kult of Athena? I think they've already reached an amicable agreement that this model is no longer produced and another model of kriegsmesser will be designed and offered in the future. It's probably for the best.
Awesome review brother 🤘 a little uneven sharpening is no big deal, like you guys said its basically universal for non Japanese swords to have inconsistent sharpness.(unfortunately, oh well) I couldn't help but notice you didn't mention the hot spot on the guard. Did you or Kyle have that issue? Or is it just because Jensen has big old bear mitts he had that issue? They also mentioned it on unsheathed sword reviews, they just said "don't choke up so high and it's a nonissue." Just curious to know if you also had the same problem and you thought the same thing?
Thanks a lot! The inconsistent sharpening is even more tragic on this sword and others coming from LK Chen. Imagine you sharpen 95% of the edge to a razor with a continuous singular bevel without even a micro bevel but then leave 5% dull… I didn’t notice any hot spot on the crossguard like Jensen did. But I don’t doubt the problem exists on at least some of the swords. The Ribaldo that I reviewed had a bit of this problem so I didn’t finger the guard as much. It still worked wonderfully but makers should pay more attention to this. Granted the hotspots on LK Chen swords are not as egregious as the ones on VA and Lockwood, which actually can cut and stab users.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold yeah that's a head scratcher alright. Especially on Kyles sword. The sweet spots dull, lol wft? I get what you're saying its extra frustrating in this case. It probably wouldn't take long to at least check the cutting portion. I sometimes wonder if the reason katana are always sharpener is because there are more companies and competitors. If you can buy a 60$ musashi and it comes sharp out of box then a 500-1000$ definitely has to be sharp. Maybe its just expected that people who buy katana are going to do test cutting. Where as European style blades are 'usually' used for reenactment or cos-play or whatever. I got a tinker viking sword, terrible sharpening. Burr left all over some spots are razor sharp some are dull. My Raptor nanbokucho on the other hand is not razor sharp but almost, and the edge is dead even throughout the blade. Same company, about the same price but night and day sharpening job. I paid 500$ cad for the Raptor and 440$ for the tinker. As for the hot spot that's another inconsistency I guess.
Yeah I think the expectation of the sword and the most common purposes are important factors. Things are changing though, as more and more people are getting into HEMA and competition cutting or at least practice cutting in their backyards. Hopefully LK Chen fan look at their sharpening processes as it is a shame that their swords are not sharpened in its entirety as the part that comes sharp are way sharper than any other maker of European swords.
I would like to add 5" POB on a 3l2 handed sword can be good IF it had good distal taper or good profile taper on thin thrusting blades. If it has little to no distal taper the 5" out can be horrible! To be fair no or little distal taper in and of itself is generally pretty horrible regardless.
Indeed. The point of balance is an important factor of the sword's handling, but no matter how it's tinkered, it will never remedy the lack of distal taper. Think about your arm, it is tapered from where it meets the shoulder to the wrist, in both the width and thickness. The arm near the wrist carries exponentially less material than the arm near the deltoid. Therefore you can move your arm naturally without much straining over the shoulder. Imagine the wrist having the same circumference as the shoulder, it will move so horribly that you might as well be crippled. Attaching a large chunk of solid mass on your shoulder to forcibly move the point of balance of your arm back simply will not address that.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold true & good analogy! I have some old swords from the mid 90s up to the early 2000s that have essentially no distal taper. Most have balance points that reflect that fact but a couple have balance points that seem good but the mass distribution if still off g they can feel sluggish.
@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 That is exactly right. Have a reasonable point of balance will make the sword feel alright you when hold it statically. You moment you start moving the sword, especially when you rotate it along your wrist, or elbow, you immediately can spot the differences. It is the reason that we have yet to find any archeological evidence that swords made without any distal taper ever existed in history. Some didn't have tons of distal taper, but they all had some noticeable amount.
And you can buy it from Kult of Athena, www.kultofathena.com/product/balaur-arms-german-kriegsmesser/ Provided they haven't sold out and discontinued it.
You two are very convincing in this review. But when I try to buy this sword, I can't find a place this is available at. It says "back ordered" at Kult of Athena. Does this mean that is it now made to order?
The first batch of this model sold out in the first week after pre-order began. I don't know if KoA is bringing it back, now that there's some accusation of lack of originality of the design. There's some indication of KoA releasing another kriegsmesser model in the future.
I am lucky enough to purchase one second-handed. It’s a pity that the owner discontinue this under pressure. It’s one of the best thing ever came out Kult Of Athena in years.
Given how many times & how hard Matthew Jensen hit the nagel I think it certainly it would hold up for test cutting. And I assume to would be ok in regular intended use, but as hopefully one will use it in an actual life & death sword fight its not likely to be an issue for most owners. That being said I still think using a square or rectangular tang on the nagel & a good peen would be an easy plus to the sword g shouldn't effect cost significantly.
So were the changes in design made before or after Peter Johnsson voiced his complaints against the Balaur Arms design? I want the BA messer & prefer it over the newer Cold Steel version for a few reasons, but after reading Mr. Johnsson's reply to a post I made on Alientudes's video Im inclined to not try to get one until the design isn't in contention out of respect for Mr Johnsson. This is partly because his explanation of why he felt the intmitial design was an infringement was satisfactory in my opinion. However this doesn't change my desire for a better kriegsmesser. I do own an older Cold Steel version but its not as nice or accurate looking as I'd prefer; it is a good cutter & not horrible feeling to me but is a bit sluggish & just too modern mooking in my opinion. If I get a better messer I may try to re-do the old version's hilt to make it more if a 2-handed falchion.
The deviation between the current BA model and the Albion Knecht happened at the design, as I showcased in the video, there is significant transformation on every aspect. However as Peter Johnsson protested, this is too close to his original design, as this was entirely dreamt up by him after studying multiple historical piece, rather than after one or two antiques. It may not be IP right infringement, but it shows a lack of originality on Kult of Athena's front. This dialog happened right before we released the reviews. KoA immediately responded and promised the release a replacement model of kriegsmesser after the second batch (allegedly 10 pieces) are shipped this August (BTW pre-order has sold out, so you can't even go out to buy one of this model now). I think this is for the best, and Peter Johnsson found this response and solution satisfactory as well. My recommendation is to wait until they release the new model of kriegsmesser, which will be exciting, as they prepare to consult from some single-edged sword experts. Alternatively you can also get two kriegsmesser models from Landsknecht Emporium, and their quality is roughly on par as LK Chen's Balaur Arms, albeit at a much higher price--with the scabbard included, likely 3 times the cost.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold well as I didn't have the $ for one yet any way it's kind of a mute point but good information. I saw some of where PJ & KoA had replied g such just didn't know the timeline of events & if KoA had made the changes yet or if it was an earlier version PJ was referring to. I do like the looks of the ones you reviewed but I respect Peter enough that I'd rather wait & get a version that doesn't essentially steal from him. I'm just hoping the redesign will be aesthetically pleasing to me as the quality LK Chen pits out is already up to par.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold generally my sword funds seldom get up to $500 but is generally the most I can ever manage to save up. So while I will always hope to get Albion's, Landsknecht Emporium & other more pricy swords I don't count on it happening.
I think this sword is perfect for your budget of under 500 dollars. So are the other two models--the Knights Templar and the Alexandria in the new Balaur Arms line made by LK Chen. The quality these 3 models demonstrated is simply not met anywhere else with swords under $1000, and that's the price excluding the scabbard (which at least would add another 500 dollars).
It is highly probably that bowie knives are direct descendants of Germanic hunting messers which are descendants of medieval langemesser, grosse messers and bauernwehr, so in a sense you are correct.
Regenyei is not a bad place to start. Being a major supplier of HEMA fencing swords, he understands handling. However, sometimes his sharp swords could be a little bit thicker at the base.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Well I'd like your opinion on Regenyei's Kriegsmesser and if the blade should be thicker then how much thicker? And if the blade would be thicker then how would that affect the other specifications of the sword? Weight: 2200 g (±20 g) Full length: 143 cm Blade length: 107,5 cm - from crossguard to tip Blade width at the cross: 40 mm Blade base thickness: 6 mm Blade material: 51CrV4 spring steel Blade hardness: 49-51 HRC Fullers: 43 cm Crossguard: custom ringed - 29 cm; polished Grip length: 34,5 cm - including pommel Grip cover: riveted wenge wood Point of balance: ~10 cm - from crossguard
@@raphaelhanna8345 yes, I think for a blade that long, it should have a beefier base thickness. 6mm would be fine for a 75-80cm blade length, but not for this long. My guess is that it has some distal taper but not a lot, around 50%, so to prevent the sword from becoming overweight they use thinner stock. For a blade of this size, ideally it should start at 8mm or so.
Unfortunately, that was the case. We had recorded over 90 minutes of our conversation, and encountered many technical difficulties on both ends. Kyle's camera crashed multiple times due to overheating, and mine stopped recording at one point when it was out of storage. Only 15 minutes or so of the footage made into the final cut. Sadly the last clip I received from Kyle for some strange reason had video and audio on a slightly different speed (maybe only 1% difference, but it was over 30 minutes long), and in the last part of the video, the difference started to accumulate and show. For our next collab, we plan to record smaller sections just to be safe.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold it happens even when working with far less footage. I just wasn't sure as I was watching while getting ready for bed and was very tired
now dats a knoife!
That, is the a knife alright!
Fellow swordsmen commenting on a sword, there's nothing more entertaining than that kind of camaraderie!
Glad that you see it that way!
It was great collaborating with you on this review Kane. Great job covering the sword from all angles. Looking forward to our Balaur Arms Alexandria collab as well!
Indeed. It has been great fun filming the collaboration discussions and editing everything. Look forward to the next one!
Amazingly made sword for the price! So many kriegsmessers (and similar swords) are too expensive for most of us to afford, so having one that we can (even if the quality isn't quite as good as the really expensive ones) is a game changer. Great review by the both of you! Was quite lengthy, but the details you guys went over were seemed necessary for potential buyers who are interested. 👍
Many thanks! It was a lot of fun to collaborate on this review as well as analyzing this sword and cutting with it. It’s an incredible offering of a kriegsmesser. Maybe not perfect, but it got pretty close!
Most informative channel!
Thank you dearly!
Great review Kane. I really want one of those.
Go for it!
thanks for the video
Gladly!
Excellent review, excellent collab!
Thanks a bunch, brother!
I placed a back order on this sword immediately after watching your review and alientude’s. Can’t wait for it to be back in stock again. Thanks for this review.
I don’t know if this model is coming back. Another kriegsmesser model is in the work for the Balaur Arms brand.
I couldn’t help but notice that your other Messer that you’re comparing to the video looks a lot like the Gustav From Landskenct Emporium. I have one similar to that one, I got to say it works pretty well.
Indeed. I love Landsknecht Emporium’s work including the Gustav! I’m glad that there’s another reliable maker of messers on the market and the prices are reasonable.
looking buff
Haha, thanks!
I’m just here to see how the stand-off is resolved between two generations of sword designers.
Stand-off? You mean between Peter Johnsson, the designer or Albion and the designer of Balaur Arms at Kult of Athena? I think they've already reached an amicable agreement that this model is no longer produced and another model of kriegsmesser will be designed and offered in the future. It's probably for the best.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold They have? Is there an official statement about it?
@@daemon_I_blackfyre I think it's through an exchange in private emails.
Awesome review brother 🤘 a little uneven sharpening is no big deal, like you guys said its basically universal for non Japanese swords to have inconsistent sharpness.(unfortunately, oh well) I couldn't help but notice you didn't mention the hot spot on the guard. Did you or Kyle have that issue? Or is it just because Jensen has big old bear mitts he had that issue? They also mentioned it on unsheathed sword reviews, they just said "don't choke up so high and it's a nonissue." Just curious to know if you also had the same problem and you thought the same thing?
Thanks a lot! The inconsistent sharpening is even more tragic on this sword and others coming from LK Chen. Imagine you sharpen 95% of the edge to a razor with a continuous singular bevel without even a micro bevel but then leave 5% dull…
I didn’t notice any hot spot on the crossguard like Jensen did. But I don’t doubt the problem exists on at least some of the swords. The Ribaldo that I reviewed had a bit of this problem so I didn’t finger the guard as much. It still worked wonderfully but makers should pay more attention to this. Granted the hotspots on LK Chen swords are not as egregious as the ones on VA and Lockwood, which actually can cut and stab users.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold yeah that's a head scratcher alright. Especially on Kyles sword. The sweet spots dull, lol wft? I get what you're saying its extra frustrating in this case. It probably wouldn't take long to at least check the cutting portion. I sometimes wonder if the reason katana are always sharpener is because there are more companies and competitors. If you can buy a 60$ musashi and it comes sharp out of box then a 500-1000$ definitely has to be sharp. Maybe its just expected that people who buy katana are going to do test cutting. Where as European style blades are 'usually' used for reenactment or cos-play or whatever. I got a tinker viking sword, terrible sharpening. Burr left all over some spots are razor sharp some are dull. My Raptor nanbokucho on the other hand is not razor sharp but almost, and the edge is dead even throughout the blade. Same company, about the same price but night and day sharpening job. I paid 500$ cad for the Raptor and 440$ for the tinker.
As for the hot spot that's another inconsistency I guess.
Yeah I think the expectation of the sword and the most common purposes are important factors. Things are changing though, as more and more people are getting into HEMA and competition cutting or at least practice cutting in their backyards. Hopefully LK Chen fan look at their sharpening processes as it is a shame that their swords are not sharpened in its entirety as the part that comes sharp are way sharper than any other maker of European swords.
I would like to add 5" POB on a 3l2 handed sword can be good IF it had good distal taper or good profile taper on thin thrusting blades. If it has little to no distal taper the 5" out can be horrible! To be fair no or little distal taper in and of itself is generally pretty horrible regardless.
Indeed. The point of balance is an important factor of the sword's handling, but no matter how it's tinkered, it will never remedy the lack of distal taper. Think about your arm, it is tapered from where it meets the shoulder to the wrist, in both the width and thickness. The arm near the wrist carries exponentially less material than the arm near the deltoid. Therefore you can move your arm naturally without much straining over the shoulder. Imagine the wrist having the same circumference as the shoulder, it will move so horribly that you might as well be crippled. Attaching a large chunk of solid mass on your shoulder to forcibly move the point of balance of your arm back simply will not address that.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold true & good analogy! I have some old swords from the mid 90s up to the early 2000s that have essentially no distal taper. Most have balance points that reflect that fact but a couple have balance points that seem good but the mass distribution if still off g they can feel sluggish.
@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 That is exactly right. Have a reasonable point of balance will make the sword feel alright you when hold it statically. You moment you start moving the sword, especially when you rotate it along your wrist, or elbow, you immediately can spot the differences. It is the reason that we have yet to find any archeological evidence that swords made without any distal taper ever existed in history. Some didn't have tons of distal taper, but they all had some noticeable amount.
That's a knife I would buy and carry in a heartbeat.
And you can buy it from Kult of Athena, www.kultofathena.com/product/balaur-arms-german-kriegsmesser/
Provided they haven't sold out and discontinued it.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Thank you, sir!
A sword would be in my EDC if I lived in texas.
@@Psycho-Ssnake carry a sword in the street?
Oh crap. I'm gonna need one
You definitely can use one. Next batch will be in stock in October at Kult of Athena.
You two are very convincing in this review. But when I try to buy this sword, I can't find a place this is available at. It says "back ordered" at Kult of Athena. Does this mean that is it now made to order?
The first batch of this model sold out in the first week after pre-order began. I don't know if KoA is bringing it back, now that there's some accusation of lack of originality of the design. There's some indication of KoA releasing another kriegsmesser model in the future.
I am lucky enough to purchase one second-handed. It’s a pity that the owner discontinue this under pressure. It’s one of the best thing ever came out Kult Of Athena in years.
Good for you. It's one of the best kriegsmesser reproduction on the market, an the cost efficiency is extremely high.
Given how many times & how hard Matthew Jensen hit the nagel I think it certainly it would hold up for test cutting. And I assume to would be ok in regular intended use, but as hopefully one will use it in an actual life & death sword fight its not likely to be an issue for most owners.
That being said I still think using a square or rectangular tang on the nagel & a good peen would be an easy plus to the sword g shouldn't effect cost significantly.
Indeed. A keyed tang should address the issue soundly. The steel they use seems to be durable enough.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold good to know you agree since you have handled it & I have yet to do so
Gotta give it to the Germans, they know how to making a sword that cuts.
Yeah, even if it means making an enlarged knife to sword proportions.
Shame that such an amazing kriegsmesser at such an affordable price is discontinued.
Indeed! Hope Balaur Arms can work with messer experts to come up with unique new models.
So were the changes in design made before or after Peter Johnsson voiced his complaints against the Balaur Arms design? I want the BA messer & prefer it over the newer Cold Steel version for a few reasons, but after reading Mr. Johnsson's reply to a post I made on Alientudes's video Im inclined to not try to get one until the design isn't in contention out of respect for Mr Johnsson. This is partly because his explanation of why he felt the intmitial design was an infringement was satisfactory in my opinion.
However this doesn't change my desire for a better kriegsmesser. I do own an older Cold Steel version but its not as nice or accurate looking as I'd prefer; it is a good cutter & not horrible feeling to me but is a bit sluggish & just too modern mooking in my opinion. If I get a better messer I may try to re-do the old version's hilt to make it more if a 2-handed falchion.
The deviation between the current BA model and the Albion Knecht happened at the design, as I showcased in the video, there is significant transformation on every aspect. However as Peter Johnsson protested, this is too close to his original design, as this was entirely dreamt up by him after studying multiple historical piece, rather than after one or two antiques. It may not be IP right infringement, but it shows a lack of originality on Kult of Athena's front. This dialog happened right before we released the reviews. KoA immediately responded and promised the release a replacement model of kriegsmesser after the second batch (allegedly 10 pieces) are shipped this August (BTW pre-order has sold out, so you can't even go out to buy one of this model now). I think this is for the best, and Peter Johnsson found this response and solution satisfactory as well.
My recommendation is to wait until they release the new model of kriegsmesser, which will be exciting, as they prepare to consult from some single-edged sword experts. Alternatively you can also get two kriegsmesser models from Landsknecht Emporium, and their quality is roughly on par as LK Chen's Balaur Arms, albeit at a much higher price--with the scabbard included, likely 3 times the cost.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold well as I didn't have the $ for one yet any way it's kind of a mute point but good information. I saw some of where PJ & KoA had replied g such just didn't know the timeline of events & if KoA had made the changes yet or if it was an earlier version PJ was referring to.
I do like the looks of the ones you reviewed but I respect Peter enough that I'd rather wait & get a version that doesn't essentially steal from him.
I'm just hoping the redesign will be aesthetically pleasing to me as the quality LK Chen pits out is already up to par.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold generally my sword funds seldom get up to $500 but is generally the most I can ever manage to save up. So while I will always hope to get Albion's, Landsknecht Emporium & other more pricy swords I don't count on it happening.
I think this sword is perfect for your budget of under 500 dollars. So are the other two models--the Knights Templar and the Alexandria in the new Balaur Arms line made by LK Chen. The quality these 3 models demonstrated is simply not met anywhere else with swords under $1000, and that's the price excluding the scabbard (which at least would add another 500 dollars).
I just received mine after more came in stock. I consider it a steal for this price.
I think so, too!
I almost wonder if the bowie knife was desighned off of a gross messer. the blade looks very similar, just bigger
It is highly probably that bowie knives are direct descendants of Germanic hunting messers which are descendants of medieval langemesser, grosse messers and bauernwehr, so in a sense you are correct.
Do you think a sword like that of the Wallace Collection A474 could have succeeded in the same type of stabbing test at 21:36?
It should definitely be possible to go through gambeson or any textile protection with a two-handed sword like that.
Can the kriegsmesser cut better than a katana?
Absolutely! The mass distribution ensures easy acceleration of the blade that reaches its terminal velocity with ease, unlike Japanese swords.
Do you know if the Regenyei Kriegsmesser is a good sword or not?
Regenyei is not a bad place to start. Being a major supplier of HEMA fencing swords, he understands handling. However, sometimes his sharp swords could be a little bit thicker at the base.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Well I'd like your opinion on Regenyei's Kriegsmesser and if the blade should be thicker then how much thicker? And if the blade would be thicker then how would that affect the other specifications of the sword?
Weight: 2200 g (±20 g)
Full length: 143 cm
Blade length: 107,5 cm - from crossguard to tip
Blade width at the cross: 40 mm
Blade base thickness: 6 mm
Blade material: 51CrV4 spring steel
Blade hardness: 49-51 HRC
Fullers: 43 cm
Crossguard: custom ringed - 29 cm; polished
Grip length: 34,5 cm - including pommel
Grip cover: riveted wenge wood
Point of balance: ~10 cm - from crossguard
@@raphaelhanna8345 yes, I think for a blade that long, it should have a beefier base thickness. 6mm would be fine for a 75-80cm blade length, but not for this long. My guess is that it has some distal taper but not a lot, around 50%, so to prevent the sword from becoming overweight they use thinner stock. For a blade of this size, ideally it should start at 8mm or so.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Okay but in that case would that change the weight? If so what might the weight be if the base thickness were 8mm?
They will be heavier but feel lighter in the hand due to the better mass distribution.
Is it just me or did Alientude's audio g video go out of sync around the 27 minute mark?
Unfortunately, that was the case. We had recorded over 90 minutes of our conversation, and encountered many technical difficulties on both ends. Kyle's camera crashed multiple times due to overheating, and mine stopped recording at one point when it was out of storage. Only 15 minutes or so of the footage made into the final cut. Sadly the last clip I received from Kyle for some strange reason had video and audio on a slightly different speed (maybe only 1% difference, but it was over 30 minutes long), and in the last part of the video, the difference started to accumulate and show. For our next collab, we plan to record smaller sections just to be safe.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold it happens even when working with far less footage. I just wasn't sure as I was watching while getting ready for bed and was very tired
I never get the obsession with the messers the HEMA community has. But after watching this video, I get some ideas.
Oh? What ideas have you got, care to elaborate?
That OTC / eric steelcraft seems to be a pretty scummy business to have any dealings with.
Sad, but true.
thanks for the video
Thank you for viewing!