I showed my grandfather this video. He was an electrician his whole life, and his first job(at 15 years old) was working for O'Keefe-Merrit in Philadelphia. They built the generator part of that unit and then connected them to 2 or 4 cylinder engines that they got from Ford(post-war/1945) and Willy's Overland Company(that contracted with Ford, Packard, and a dozen other companies pre 1945). He thinks you should rebuild it because "they don't make that kind of quality anymore." It's quite possible he bolted those units together or secured it in the shipping crate(They would have been OD green from the factory). Dayshift would assemble the engines(he says it should have the same fuel pump as a jeep of that era(the 4 cyl engine was the same engine in the Jeep and most parts should be interchangeable). The second shift would attach the generators, and bench test them and overnights(which ran from 6pm-2am) would crate them. He worked on 2nd and overnights from 1944-1948. There were only 5 other people that would have done that. His "Boss" who was the "old man" on the shift, was 22 and is now 102. They are the only 2 left from that era. Thanks for posting this. I had no clue he would be that closely connected. It made his year!
As a generator mechanic, I am very interested in seeing you guys do a full restoration of that thing. I was always told that the Onans were the best gen set and it looks like what you have there could be something extremely reliable as long as it still makes electricity. No doubt you guys will get the motor running but the true test is if it makes power. But yes, Full Restoration!!
@49:00 You were spot on how the choke works - and the heater was broken, so someone adjusted it to 'off' all the time. Have I ever mentioned I used to work for Onan? ;)
It may have been adjusted to no-choke if the carb was a slight leaker, the level in the float bowl being a bit too rich, and no choke needed. The heater is an assist to insure the choke is turned off quickly after startup. If they adjusted for no-choke, the heater is not needed, and may have had an intermittent short that caused problems. If any of the mounts for the ends of the nichrome(?) wire coils was semi-functional, it could have been a problem.
I worked at a Montgomery Wards auto center in the early 1970's. Their color is, in fact; blue. They were a cut rate version of Sears. Whatever you bought from them on the hardware side came in blue packaging. Just like the blue on your generator. Wrenches, blue roll pouch. .22 rifle, blue box. Sears, Montgomery Ward, and J.C. Penney; all competed for the same customer back in those days.
I remember their riding lawnmowers and garden tiller were a goldish brown color. The tiller’s Briggs and Stratton engine was mounted on an off white plate above the tines. That Onan engine was a powerhouse in its day.
We had one of those at our WI hunting shack in the '70s. I rebuilt it in high school shop class in 1976. I could get some of the parts at that time. I believe that is a 1kW lighting plant. It has terminals to connect a remote start/stop. We only started it while being at the machine since the electric choke coil broke, and we would check oil, etc. The remote stop was nice so we didn't have to leave the warm shack at bedtime. You are correct that the choke is not set correctly. If you can fix the coil, set the choke by turning the htr assy until choke blade is just closed, and tighten base clamp. The fan hub is oil filled as well. Small screw on hub let's you add oil until it leaks out of shaft. The top of the coil housing is missing because those are not original coils. The original high tension leads came out of the cap horizontally. Our coils failed so we replaced them with new ones, 6 V wired in series, just like original. Also, the coil housing is above the exhaust manifold and would cook the coils. I out a sheet metal shield over the manifold. I had to replace head gasket in early 90's and couldn't get parts. Original gasket was copper on two sides, some kind of fiber in the middle. I contacted a gasket company and got a high temp head gasket material sample, approx 8" x 10" or so. Drew up the gasket on ACAD and had it CNC punched at work. Worked fine. Many of the other gaskets, such as base and lower cylinder gaskets were a thick waxed paper type. Check the commutation end of the generator to be sure there is a gap between each copper section. As the copper wears the insulation between each section must be removed. Easily formed with a hacksaw blade if needed. Our valves were very worn, and I was able to replace them. The guides may have been too, but I don't remember replacing them. We ended up discontinue using this generator and switched to using newer portable 5kW generator as it had more power, portable, less maintenance, etc. You may have some luck getting a few parts now since the Web exists. I even called onan in the '70s and they said they didn't support that machine any longer. Ours was green, same as the background behind the lettering on the radiator. We painted ours a deep blue for some reason. Be careful taking the two bolts out that hold the thermosiphon to the radiator as they are through bolts and get rusted in place. We snapped ours, then snapped an easy out, then visited the local machine shop to fix that! It was a fun project though.
If you look at the history of David Onan you will find that he had trouble with the lights going up and down with the running of 1930s Brigs and Stratton engines, he and his son spent many years trying to solve the problem. Finally, he built his own engines with better balance and governor.
Just before WW2 my father was the service manager at Monkey Wards in an Ohio town. Our family name is Sears. MW customers would bring in their complaints and the clerks would say "No problem sir, just go see Sears". The customers would start to cuss out the clerks because they thought that MW was refusing service and directing them to Sears Roebuck. The Sears Roebuck manager tried to hire my father away from MW just to spite their competition, because my dad was known around the town as the best service guy. So my dad put up a sign at MW Service that said "Powered by Sears". He told me that people even brought Sears products to him for repair, and he would repaint them blue over the Sears red. Dad came from the period where "we had to walk 5 miles to school without shoes".
This is the 2KW 2-cylinder single phase model - and it is indeed a re-badged Onan. Perhaps your Onan 7KW 3PH is a V4-cylinder beast - totally different than this little guy, with twice the "cool" factor as well!
I have the 3 KW 12 VDC/ 120VAC Fairbanks Morse version the same generator. I know of others that have the same ones badged as GE and other brands all from the same era.
I’m an engineer, too. Too many engineers are book smart but lack practical experience and don’t value it in others. I greatly respect good craftsmen and technicians, and strive to ensure they know I value their opinions and skills.
I love the way you guys always machine things to better than they ever could have been originally. In that same vein, I’d like to see you guys update as much of this generator as possible
Man I miss Montgomery Wards. They were awesome, like Service Merchandise. And yes, that is the original color. MG always painted everything Hammerite blue or green. I've got an old MG gas powered water pump that's very similar to this that's painted that same battleship blue. Still runs too, my grandpa always said "you get what you pay for, and if you buy smart you'll have a tool for life" It's fun to see this! It takes me back.
I think that plate that isn't full size bore on the carb mounting is an intake restrictor to limit the max air to the carb and so limit the max revs of the engine. Simple but effective.
I had an oil bath air filter on my 1954 Holden FJ ute here in Australia & it worked very well at seperating & capturing dirt & dust. Emergency braking or hard brake tests for rego used to see oil spill out over the hot exhuast manifold resulting in lots of smoke & luckily no fire.
Niice mate! So I guess my brother's FC or FE Holden (I forget which one) likely has an oil bath air filter too? That's funny about the heavy braking splashin oil oil about under heavy braking!😂!
@@nevillegoddard4966 Both the FE and FC Holden had an oil bath airfilter. There were three different styles of oil bath airfilters on Holden's from 1948 to 1958. I think GMH Holden phased them out in favour of paper elements as the risk they posed of fire in the event of a collision or roll over.
You're correct in your assumption of how that choke is adjusted. It's adjustable so you can change the time of how long the choke stays closed to warm the engine up. In really cold weather the housing that the element is in can be adjusted to tighten it up to make it take longer to open the choke. In warm weather when a choke isn't needed, it can be set so the choke is wide open. I've been working on engines since I was 16 and have been through a large number of carbs either rebuilding them or adjusting them. I'm 62 and retired now but still turning wrenches at home. Personally, if I had that generator, I'd clean it up, rebuild the carb, give it a nice paint job, made sure it ran ok and use it as a conversation piece. Why go through the trouble of overhauling the engine, will it be put back in service? I think it'd be better off just cleaned up and painted....just my .02 worth.
I love restoring old machinery! Thanks for this video! Those old gensets would use the generator head as a starter motor if a battery was connected. I've got a few that use that technique.
I want you guys to do whatever you think is fun. You seem to be having a fun time working on this on your own schedule. I'll tune in for whatever happens.
Hey y’all. I work on Farmall and other old engines. Regarding the thermosyphon and the oil bath air cleaner, both work really well when maintained. For the air cleaner, the cup should take the same oil as the engine, and as the air is sucked in by the engine, dirt and dust gets blown into the mesh which is splashed by oil. When the engine shuts off, the oil and debris settles to the bottom of the cup. To clean it, change the oil in the cup and remove the screened filler material and wash in kerosene or heating oil. As for the radiator, the engine uses a thermosyphon system. It will seem to not be working when running for the first few minutes, but this is normal because the system lacks a pump, the water must heat up first before it will move. To use this system, do not use Dexcool or other automotive coolants. Use a standard antifreeze (green) coolant or straight water. Buy pre-mixed or mix before pouring in because with the absence of a water pump, the coolant and water will not mix and will result in inefficient cooling. As the water heats in the engine it rises to the neck where it enters the coil, the fan blows the heat out of the water where it becomes cool and falls with convection, entering the water block again. To clean it of rust and dirt, first drain the system (and remove radiator cap). Then with engine on idle, fill the system with water and baking soda (pre mixed) or for an extreme clean, muriatric acid, or white vinegar and install cap. After an hour of running, turn off the engine, drain it and flush with cold water until water runs clear. Repeat as necessary. A well maintained thermosyphon system is reliable and efficient at cooling an engine but will require you to keep the coolant whether that be water, or antifreeze clean and always filled. My best tip on filling is to avoid under filling, which can be done by filling to the top of the radiator neck and running engine for normal use. Any extra coolant will exit out the overflow pipe and it will level itself off based on heat and pressure. Last tip is to make sure your water (if used) is soft. Hard water that is over chlorinated will damage the cast iron and radiator tubes, and water with excess minerals will calcify the block making cooling inefficient. The best choice for water is leaving a few buckets out during a rainstorm. Rain water is soft and much better for thermosyphon systems. Hope this helps y’all.
For a lot of RUclipsrs out there, I would vote for just getting it running and go from there. You guys are in a really unique spot with a machine shop at hand. In your case, I would vote giving it the 2024 treatment by taking it apart, machine to good tolerances, balancing it and putting it back together with either the factory color for vintage reasons or high tech colors or coating for a vintage-modern look. It would be cool to see what old might look and run like if it was given todays specs. Also (if it hasn't been mentioned), the direction of the spring on the carb dictates that the heat will open the choke. To check the adjustment, put the carb in a fridge and a freezer to see if there's a difference in how open they are. I think fridge should be partially to mostly closed with freezer being all closed. There will be a temperature it's expected to be completely open, maybe in the manual.
Restore it! Preserving history will always benefit the future generations. I'm sharing this with my club members of Power From The Past in Arizona. We will be following for updates. Thanks for rescuing this "old iron".
The grit on the bottom of the oil pan is deposits left over from using leaded gas many years ago and using the oil from long ago that let the lead sink to the bottom of the oil pan unlike todays oil that keeps the dirt suspended in the oil.
As you said, today’s carb cleaner is nothing like what we had up to the mid 80s. The old stuff would strip a carb in 30-45 minutes. When it was used up and dirty, the heavy line mechanic would take it and use it for his engine parts for the next month or 2. Before we knew better, after pulling the carb out of the agitator tank, we would wash it off in the mechanics bathroom sink. A fresh tank of the stuff would strip the top layers of skin off your hands if you had to reach into it. Made sure you never went home with dirty hands. I remember getting angry at the heavy line mechanic when he would put valve covers in it to strip the paint off of them. Would ruin the cleaner. Today, ultrasonic cleaners work better than the chemical cleaners available today.
Now this would be awesome pice of hardware to rebuild and get running just for the nostalgia. Some collector would probably love it. B4 you get too deep into it, you may wanna have the coil, or generator alternator winding check? To make sure the thing can theoretically produce electricity. And pressure test your cooling system
Indeed carb dip is nothing like it used to be. Most of us still doing carb work have switched to using ultrasonic cleaners now. They work incredibly well.
That’s a honeycomb radiator. They were popular in the 40’s. The generator probably also doubles as your starter. The crank should be backup. You should pull the plugs to prime the oil system before cranking it over. The GenSet should be governed to 1800 rpm and have adequate balance to run smoothly. I have a couple Crosley powered 3-phase generators. Fun things to play with.
Dad owned one on the farm in north dakota after ww2,wired the house in 1940,REA WAS DELAYED TILL 48.ALMOST WAS ELECTICUTED CRANKING IT ONCE.SOLD IT IN 70,I BOUGHT SAME THING AT Auction ten years ago.army green was the color.Saw a few of them around here in my lifetime.thanks for the videos. Very interesting content
Looks like an Onan W2C I think they were 2 kilowatt at 0.8 power-factor, and should run at 1800 RPM to make 60 HZ AC. You should really take the cover off the back, clean the slip rings, and make sure the brushes move freely in their holders, They tend to get stuck when they sit for a long time and you get arcing where the brushes ride on the slip rings. It can do a fair amount of damage if it goes on long
Very interesting little engine, get it running and then decide if it needs a full on rebuild. Dodge Brothers cars from 1914 until 1925 bolted the carb directly to the block same as your little Onan. You two guys have a great channel.
I believe these generators were designed with all major components within the footprint of the radiator. This allowed for compact crating and best use of space when shipping. That’s why the tight spacing on the carb bolts.
The little plate is a restrictor plate. They were different ones used depending on altitude and temperature. Fuel pump is an AC pump and easy to get parts for. The pump was used on nearly everything from generators to big tractors. Find one and change our the diaphragm to your shaft. Now, for the big question, rebuild or not? Get it running first, have the generator checked out then if ok do a full restore on it.
The neighbor has one of those badged Fairbanks Morse. They called it an "Electric Plant". Yeats ago, I'd installed a transfer switch so it can be used as standby house power.
I think engineers don’t give one though to the guy who have to fix the stuff they design. As an aircraft mechanic of 45 years, some of the stuff I have seen is VERY difficult to repair
@@jamesberdine8574 more a case of they don't get paid to care, if the one paying your wage doesn't care if you design something to be easily maintained you won't think about it while doing the math for if it'll stay together
In this case, they put the carb so close to the block to narrow the total width so they could fit the whole thing into a shipping crate. Another carb mount that is no fun is the B&S mounted with screws. Not Philips, no hex, but slotted screws, at an angle partially hidden behind the carb.
That generator is a piece of history. I would reach out to Onan and see if they would participate is such a piece of history. I once bought an old paint compressor from my brother-in-law and used it for nearly 10 years. tt was made in the 40's when I was a child. What amazed me it ran when you tried and was so quite. Parts on my body are waring out at the age of 82 and I appreciate that old technology. I always wanted to rebuild an engine so I appreciate your vid's
put the engine back together and send it! that's neat that the generator turns the engine to start it, i'm not sure when ALCO or GE started using this idea on their locomotives I will tell you that modern GE locomotives still use the batteries and traction alternator to start the diesel engine.
Reddish color paint on inside of the oil pan and block is a product called Glyptal and was originally a GE product. Great video and I look forward to seeing more on this great little gen set.
Some restoration fanatics(?) use that on the internals of engines they restore that are not likely to see much run time. It prevents the iron gizzards from rusting due to condensation, etc, and also makes the oil drain out more readily as the oil 'rides on the paint surface' moreso than it does on cast iron, and leaves no residue.
I went thru a mid 70s single cylinder air cooled Onan. Very similar basic construction as this water cooled twin. Had a lot of fun & education going thru the 2.5 KVA Onan I had.
The carb cleaner I remember came in like a 3 gallon metal bucket. In all the years my dad had his service station we never had to buy a new bucket. The liquid inside was, basically, black and depending on what you were cleaning, there might be a light wisp of smoke when you pulled the parts out
I have a vague memory of there being a 'top layer' of oil(?) that kept the cleaner from evaporating too fast. I think our hot tank had one, so maybe I have confused the two, or both had a layer. trichlorethylene - trike - eats your liver form the inside out..... Just like the Carbona home spot remover used on fabric and upholstery to blot spots. Now NLA as it was poison and some did not comply with the instructions. I think prior to EPA cutting back on a lot of other sutff.
My 1936 Cord had a Stromberg carburetor with a choke that had an identical type choke mechanism, a coiled spring and a heating element that was energized when the ignition was started. When the engine was warmed up, the spring was warm enough to keep the choke open even with the ignition switch off. This type of choke control was replaced in later cars with a "heat riser" tube the transferred exhaust manifold heat up to the choke coil, worked better as the electric elements were known to burn out after a few years.
Thanks for another interesting video Jim and Nick. It is very interesting and informative and enjoyable to watch. This old generator system is really an interesting project you both have taken on. So interesting to see how it is put together as you disassemble the unit. I believe it is very well built the way it looks so far. Has had some use but not a tremendous amount of time on it. Sincerely appreciate the way you both explain the parts as you take it apart and how you believe it functions and all that. Dearly love the way you look at parts and analyze things as you go. Most v interesting project. Looking forward to following you on this one. The retired Air Force veteran.
The story I’ve heard many times on the oil bath air cleaners is that they worked very effectively but the manufacturers wised up and figured out they could make quite a bit more money charging for filter canisters. Ironically, sometimes if a farmer was really keen on cleaning out his filter element with compressed air all the time , it could rip the material and let dust get sucked in more easily. The oil bath was pretty fool proof if you kept good clean oil in it. The only thing we’ve ever run in them is regular engine oil.
I have a 49 Farmall C tractor and it uses a oil bath air filter and it works very good . I've had the tractor for a long time and just did a tune up on it the other day and changed the oil for the oil bath air filter on it .
I think most end-users were loathe to get their hands dirty for both auto and other filters, so pleated paper became the filter that would actually maybe get service now and then. An oil bath, caked with collected dirt, was (is) a real mess to keep clean, and it was most common until the mid-1950's. The labyrinth the air passed through above the oil also needed a good slosh in gasoline/solvent and then a dip in oil... who would do all that? If you add in the additional revenue for replacement paper filters, the lowered cost of the filter housing/gizzards, it is a double win for vendor. The army and other industrial purchasers who bought at the Onan level of product specified the minimum of parts to stock, and air filters could be cleaned by motor pool soldiers... tom
I am a retired machinist. Get it running to find out what it needs, then restore to original specifications and brag about how well it runs!!! Love watching you both work so we'll together!!
I too am a boomer, only three years younger than this treasure. I wish that my son would find & buy me stuff like this, but in reality, I have far more projects & stuff than I can ever use, but a welding unit like this would be very handy at times. The thermo siphon system had a couple of advantages. It was cheap [no pump] & it actually worked well, & it worked best at near boiling, which helped the engine to heat & vaporise the poor grade of pre 1950's fuel, ensuring smooth running through good combustion & of course lower running costs when all of the liquid fuel that leaves the carb is vaporised & burned. But wait, there's more. Dodge engines from 1914 till sometime in the early '20's had the carb bolted directly to the cylinder block. The intake passage passed between No. 2 & 3 cylinders to the opposite side of the block, then branched via an internal T section to feed Cylinders 1& 2 on one side of the central cross passage, then 3 & 4 on the other. All of the intake passage from carb flange to valve seat were cast in block. The upside is that the crude fuel of the day [close to Kerosene] needed heat to vaporise it properly, & this system provided the heat that many other engines did not. Particularly in the north with plenty of snowfall & sub zero temperatures. Dodge engines of the period were well known for smooth running & great mechanical reliability & this design was a contributing element. Hmmmm, to rebuild or not to rebuild, this, is the question. Worn guides, suspect valves, worn cam & an implied responsibility to restore it to a fully serviceable standard [ie, like new], so, pull it down & let us all see how it works.
Thanks for this video , interesting challenge you fells have taken on. My dad was a wholesale distributor for standard oil back in 1949, the 12,000 gallon rail cars were filled at hillyard next to Spokane from a pipeline. When they arrived he would pump the gas into storage tanks and then go up to the top and empty a small vial of dye into the gas to brand. Red was regular 87 octane and blue was supreme 89 octane. What came through the pipeline was clear, each company would add different color to brand.
Jim, that choke is very similar to a type made by Holly. They were used on AMC - jeep engines from the 1950 to about 1978. This type of choke is fairly common on stationary engines.
I'm getting near the age that I'd like to head out to the garage/shop and just tinker with things. There is no money in it unless you find find a person that really wants it. What was cool back in the days of 'Monkey Ward' and especially Sears is: Sears: They genuinely carried even the smallest parts for stuff that they sold(Lawn tractors, dish washers, washing machines, etc.). They were sold with manuals that included highly-detailed printed parts blow-up illustrations with part numbers, They were damned nice and responsible manuals...not just a gloss-over. You could get those parts from Sears usually for the next 40 years after the damned gizmo was made. Not in any way true with today's machinery. Sears is sorely missed to me.
The original color was a medium to dark green and the orange/red color inside the pan is a Glyptal type coating. Glyptal, a GE product, was used to seal porous materials such as iron and provide a smooth coating for oils and such to flow over.. It was also used (and may still be) in electrical motors and windings.
That partial intake block off plate was probably to aid carb function and to increase turbulence in the intake stream for better atomization. At least that was their thought in 1940ish I think...
I was thinking a restriction plate as the engine maybe multi horsepower, determined by carb size. Or maybe the carb was multi use to engine horsepower.
I didn't think I'd ever see another one of these onan gensets,we had one of these running an of grid house here in oz until a shed fire a few years ago, it was still used regularly and ran quite well,it was painted dark green
Measure the compression. Measure the oil pressure. If they're both good and it not knocking, don't fix it, it is not broken, don't fix it. Run it at 80% of it's rated electrical load. See if it struggles to keep up. Also check how it handles an electric motor starting surge, maybe a window air conditioner, If it stumbles and sags then it doesn't have enough compression or the cam lift is worn so it is not getting enough charge in the cylinders. That system is overbuilt. It is designed to run for long periods under heavy loads, kind of like marine engines.
That looks like an identical fuel pump to what is used on mid 1930's Chevrolet engines. I had to replace a diaphragm on my 1935 and a replacement is made and sold by Jim Carter's Truck Parts in MO. That was in 2004 that I did that but I think they still sell them. Them two nuts you were removing on top of the pump had flat pieces of formica type material with springs in mine and appeared to be check valves for the pump.
@craigjohnson2122! Great Point! Call in the electrical specialist in to verify the integrity of generator windings & wires; check too see if stator shaft, bearings, bushings are good; check integrity of all connection points; verify if it could be rewound or repaired if ever needed, prior to engine rebuild.
yes I was wondering about that as well. Isn't there a known issue where a generator has sat for years without use will no longer generate power. That sticks in my head so I crank up my back-up generator every year and let it power something for 20-30 minutes. May be one of those old wives' tale though...
The rebuild isn't what's tough, just have to find a rebuilder that can hand wind stators and knows how to fabricate obsolete parts. I spent 20 years of my life rebuilding electric motors/generators/alternators and we specialized in obsolete units.
If you plug a drill into a non working generator and spin it backwards with another drill it'll make it start producing electric. Don't know how it does it but an older guy showed me that trick years ago and it worked
the same generator motors the engine over for starting... and we know that works.... so it is highly likely that it will also generate electricity. If it does not, the problem will likely be in the components that control the electricity, no the components that generate the electricity.
Like you said “ If it ain’t broke don’t fix it “. If it runs fine then get the generator working and it will be golden. I’m fascinated by the design of different engines. This one is truly unique.
Not so; the honda 305 cc motorcycle engine was laid out the same way. Cylinders fired alternately, but travelled together with balance relying on crank weight opposite the rod journals to keep it from vibrating itself to death. 305's were smoothies in terms of running though a bit sluggish on the acceleration side. Equivilant size yamaha 2 stroke engine would bury the honda on the strip but honda would usually put pull at top end, imho.
Okay, this generator should have been built to government specs to be used in all the theaters during the war! A good source of potential advice would be James Condom’s channel where he primarily fixes and knows more about motors and more importantly generator repairs on RUclips! Put a little money into a content generator for the channel, and the value of a generator that’s probably very collectible from WW2 re-enactors, to just collecting! This may be gold for you!
Things were used in viet nam as welll..FSB Ike had three of them powering a bank of radios so the hq company could communicate with the rest of the universe. Things ran very smooth & quiet, sat on the ground and ants would happily den up directly beside them. (Ants don't seem to appreciate vibration.) Never heard of one of these failing unless sumbuddy fergot to change the oil or put the what passed for fuel in them. These were set up to jointly run off a 55 gallon drum of mogas (motor fuel). Dunno how long a 55 would last.
Ha! you betcha. We used to service a random selection of backup generators, one of which was a little Onan air cooled autostart diesel genset. The sparkies we used to team with couldn't get the set up to 50Hz, and we found that sometime in the distant past it had broken/lost a governor spring and adjuster, so one of our predecessors had lashed up something using a too-heavy spring he found in the junk drawer, and there was no way the poor little thing could get to its designed rpm. To our surprise, the OG spring was still available, but the price was just eye watering-something like our hourly charge out rate for a tension spring a couple of inches long and 1/2 inch in diameter with a funky loop on one end and a hook on the other. And we still had to fabricate the unobtainium adjuster to use it.
The even firing setup crank is for the smooth rotation of the generator & electrical output for radios etc. Lighting doesnt need this.Entertained again, Thanks.
Put it back together and test run. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If during the test run you observe more serious problems, then go for the total rebuild. You would be very surprised at how durable and functional old engines and equipment like that are.
These are 'unfussy' designs that can get by with poor quality oil and be repaired by farmers(fixed anything and everything, especially in WWII) who can take a tin can and make it into a thermal reflector, an antenna, or a crock pot, depending.
That part on the carburetor with the "D" opening is because this generator was once used by NASCAR at Talladega so it required a restrictor plate. They thought it would make the electricity better by keeping all the generators bunched up in a pack. It was alright until the "BIG ONE" happened. Then they were in the dark the rest of the night.
"White gas' was the fuel that was used in the 'blow torch' dad used to sweat the copper pipes and tubing in the house he built. Coleman fuel is pretty much the same but with additives. He bought at the 'no-lead' Amoco gas stations. An employee wanted it more than Dad, so he took it w/o permission. I found one, but have yet to fire it up.
It's unfair to blame engineers for tight stuff like that. Any good engineer, given free reign, would make it perfect. Unfortunately, they (we) are usually given a deadline and horrible parameters to work with (make this work with this for $x, and have it done in two days).
Every “Engineer “ should be made to work in a repair facility for at least 5 years before they are allowed to start “engineering “ anything. The repair side of the industry would be so much better for ALL people. Probably a lot less expensive also for everyone.
If it were mine, I’d piece it back together and see how it runs. But it’s yours, and I love watching you guys work, and love seeing unusual machines, and how you make them work right. So of course I want to see you go through it completely 😁
I have a 1948 Tow Motor fork lift with a Continental flat head 6. It has a Zenith updraft carburetor that is a REAL ODBALL. The only one I could find was over 400 bucks about 7-8 years ago. It's cast steel/iron and it's SHOT!!!
You might want to check with tractor parts places that specialize in old versions. Many used updraft carburetors and Continental made a lot of different engines to supply some of the smaller tractor makers.
When I first moved to CFCO radio in Chatham, Ontario, in 1995, they had as a standby generator the "big brother" to that generator. It was a flat head four cylinder that looked like the motor out of my 1956 Ford Anglia in Africa. You started it via the generator windings for the 12 volt battery, while the alternator produced up to 10 kw at 208 volts AC. When the station was combined with CKSY in 1997, the generator was moved to their studio and installed there, where it provided backup power for both station's studios. When the big power outage of the eastern seaboard happened, the generator failed, seized solid, because no one bothered to keep a close check on the engine oil and after running continuously for more than twelve hours it gave up the "smoke" at TCG said. It too was made in 1946 and was also that same blu, but underneath was military drab green suggesting its history was war surplus. I believe its tags said Onan on i, but it's long gone, replaced with a Honda 3 cylinder diesel and now a new Onan unit.
I say run it.. the worst that could happen is a rebuild , these things were build solidly, yes its worn as you've shown but at least you'll have the data, go for it boys😊
I look forward to seeing the generator run again. The ONAN is a nice well built engine made to be rebuilt. It is put together in the typical fashion for the day, but with a few oddball ideas possibly to get around patents. You may even find some parts are still around or standard sized engine more modern, or a different manufactures parts may be a replacement. The Blue color is Monkey Wards color so it's original over the orange primer. Another manufacture was Wisconsin Engine. The Wisconsin vintage engines like THD, TJD (as well as larger vblock engines) were similar in ways to the ONAN engine there. Consisting of a oil sump, a block, and cylinder block and head all bolted together so any part could be replaced if worn out or damaged. Crankshaft on ball bearings, mechanical fuel pump run off the cam etc.. The THD is even firing making smooth power for for generators, and Hobart welders, it's twin the TJD was odd firing. The ONAN engine may also be even firing. That radiator is all brass and any hole in the wall radiator shop (the old one that know what they are doing) can boil, rod, clean and repair any leaks.
This little outfit is a perfect static display project Jim. A great talking point and one i most certainly would look forward to you both working your magic on the engine, solving any 'problems' along the way. Go for it.....please👍🏻👍🏻 🏴🇬🇧
I say go ahead and restore it. Its a basically solid 78 year old generator. You are right about carb cleaners. The chlorinated products i used back in the day were effective cleaners but very nasty. You didnt want to inhale the fumes or get the stuff on your skin. Those old cleaners had to be respected. The oil looks good to me. Considering the poorer quality of earlier oils, you have very little sludge in the pan. You have the skills to make this a practical and useful unit. I say bring it back to useful life.
What would you do? Piece it back together? Or try to fix it right?
I’d fix it make it a bit more modern and restore the paint. 🤓
weld on the cam lobes, regrind it, hone the cylinder, rings are probably fine
Fix it! Looks like a great project.
Paint in oil pan is Glyptol. I believe that's the correct spelling. It's made to seal off porosity in cast iron
fix it right
I showed my grandfather this video. He was an electrician his whole life, and his first job(at 15 years old) was working for O'Keefe-Merrit in Philadelphia. They built the generator part of that unit and then connected them to 2 or 4 cylinder engines that they got from Ford(post-war/1945) and Willy's Overland Company(that contracted with Ford, Packard, and a dozen other companies pre 1945). He thinks you should rebuild it because "they don't make that kind of quality anymore." It's quite possible he bolted those units together or secured it in the shipping crate(They would have been OD green from the factory). Dayshift would assemble the engines(he says it should have the same fuel pump as a jeep of that era(the 4 cyl engine was the same engine in the Jeep and most parts should be interchangeable). The second shift would attach the generators, and bench test them and overnights(which ran from 6pm-2am) would crate them. He worked on 2nd and overnights from 1944-1948. There were only 5 other people that would have done that. His "Boss" who was the "old man" on the shift, was 22 and is now 102. They are the only 2 left from that era. Thanks for posting this. I had no clue he would be that closely connected. It made his year!
You guys have to do a full restoration now.
As a generator mechanic, I am very interested in seeing you guys do a full restoration of that thing. I was always told that the Onans were the best gen set and it looks like what you have there could be something extremely reliable as long as it still makes electricity. No doubt you guys will get the motor running but the true test is if it makes power. But yes, Full Restoration!!
Full restoration!!!
@49:00 You were spot on how the choke works - and the heater was broken, so someone adjusted it to 'off' all the time.
Have I ever mentioned I used to work for Onan? ;)
It may have been adjusted to no-choke if the carb was a slight leaker, the level in the float bowl being a bit too rich, and no choke needed. The heater is an assist to insure the choke is turned off quickly after startup. If they adjusted for no-choke, the heater is not needed, and may have had an intermittent short that caused problems. If any of the mounts for the ends of the nichrome(?) wire coils was semi-functional, it could have been a problem.
I worked at a Montgomery Wards auto center in the early 1970's. Their color is, in fact; blue. They were a cut rate version of Sears. Whatever you bought from them on the hardware side came in blue packaging. Just like the blue on your generator. Wrenches, blue roll pouch. .22 rifle, blue box. Sears, Montgomery Ward, and J.C. Penney; all competed for the same customer back in those days.
I worked for Sears in those days. "Sears has everything" was the TV commercial jingle ...
That is from the 40's and they used orange in that era.
I remember their riding lawnmowers and garden tiller were a goldish brown color. The tiller’s Briggs and Stratton engine was mounted on an off white plate above the tines.
That Onan engine was a powerhouse in its day.
Same here. Mid 70's I worked there also. The blue looks like the "standard" Monkey Ward color scheme.
Sadly, Wards and Sears are no longer, and J.C. Penney doesn't sell medium-duty equipment any more.
We had one of those at our WI hunting shack in the '70s. I rebuilt it in high school shop class in 1976. I could get some of the parts at that time.
I believe that is a 1kW lighting plant. It has terminals to connect a remote start/stop. We only started it while being at the machine since the electric choke coil broke, and we would check oil, etc. The remote stop was nice so we didn't have to leave the warm shack at bedtime.
You are correct that the choke is not set correctly. If you can fix the coil, set the choke by turning the htr assy until choke blade is just closed, and tighten base clamp.
The fan hub is oil filled as well. Small screw on hub let's you add oil until it leaks out of shaft.
The top of the coil housing is missing because those are not original coils. The original high tension leads came out of the cap horizontally. Our coils failed so we replaced them with new ones, 6 V wired in series, just like original. Also, the coil housing is above the exhaust manifold and would cook the coils. I out a sheet metal shield over the manifold.
I had to replace head gasket in early 90's and couldn't get parts. Original gasket was copper on two sides, some kind of fiber in the middle. I contacted a gasket company and got a high temp head gasket material sample, approx 8" x 10" or so. Drew up the gasket on ACAD and had it CNC punched at work. Worked fine.
Many of the other gaskets, such as base and lower cylinder gaskets were a thick waxed paper type.
Check the commutation end of the generator to be sure there is a gap between each copper section. As the copper wears the insulation between each section must be removed. Easily formed with a hacksaw blade if needed.
Our valves were very worn, and I was able to replace them. The guides may have been too, but I don't remember replacing them.
We ended up discontinue using this generator and switched to using newer portable 5kW generator as it had more power, portable, less maintenance, etc.
You may have some luck getting a few parts now since the Web exists. I even called onan in the '70s and they said they didn't support that machine any longer.
Ours was green, same as the background behind the lettering on the radiator. We painted ours a deep blue for some reason.
Be careful taking the two bolts out that hold the thermosiphon to the radiator as they are through bolts and get rusted in place. We snapped ours, then snapped an easy out, then visited the local machine shop to fix that!
It was a fun project though.
If you look at the history of David Onan you will find that he had trouble with the lights going up and down with the running of 1930s Brigs and Stratton engines, he and his son spent many years trying to solve the problem. Finally, he built his own engines with better balance and governor.
Just before WW2 my father was the service manager at Monkey Wards in an Ohio town. Our family name is Sears. MW customers would bring in their complaints and the clerks would say "No problem sir, just go see Sears". The customers would start to cuss out the clerks because they thought that MW was refusing service and directing them to Sears Roebuck. The Sears Roebuck manager tried to hire my father away from MW just to spite their competition, because my dad was known around the town as the best service guy. So my dad put up a sign at MW Service that said "Powered by Sears". He told me that people even brought Sears products to him for repair, and he would repaint them blue over the Sears red. Dad came from the period where "we had to walk 5 miles to school without shoes".
Up hill both ways.....dad talk.
@@wyattdean5658 The Greatest Generation.....
Great family history you have
Yeah, "Uphill both ways!"
No sense wearing out your shoes.😂 Probably saved on polish too. That's funny, he repainted them blue.
I just love the father son love in your videos. I miss my father so much. Keep up the great work together.
I have the Onan version of this it's a 7 kW 3 phase generator and believe me they're about as reliable as a Mormon showing up to church on Sunday
Exmo here and I can vouch for that reliability comparison
This is the 2KW 2-cylinder single phase model - and it is indeed a re-badged Onan. Perhaps your Onan 7KW 3PH is a V4-cylinder beast - totally different than this little guy, with twice the "cool" factor as well!
I have the 3 KW 12 VDC/ 120VAC Fairbanks Morse version the same generator. I know of others that have the same ones badged as GE and other brands all from the same era.
Yes, fix it to be a reliable runner at least. Save the history.....
And paint it army green!
Nooo! The existing colour is part of its history. But “hammered effect” paint is horrible to paint over. Nothing sticks to it.
I’m an engineer, too. Too many engineers are book smart but lack practical experience and don’t value it in others. I greatly respect good craftsmen and technicians, and strive to ensure they know I value their opinions and skills.
I love the way you guys always machine things to better than they ever could have been originally. In that same vein, I’d like to see you guys update as much of this generator as possible
Onan W2C from the looks of it. Well worth saving, those little gensets are bulletproof.
Man I miss Montgomery Wards. They were awesome, like Service Merchandise. And yes, that is the original color. MG always painted everything Hammerite blue or green. I've got an old MG gas powered water pump that's very similar to this that's painted that same battleship blue. Still runs too, my grandpa always said "you get what you pay for, and if you buy smart you'll have a tool for life" It's fun to see this! It takes me back.
You guys need to make this a collaboration with Handtool Rescue. This is right up his alley.
I think that plate that isn't full size bore on the carb mounting is an intake restrictor to limit the max air to the carb and so limit the max revs of the engine. Simple but effective.
I agree it's a restrictor, during an oil crisis in the 70's we had them fitted to our vans.
I had an oil bath air filter on my 1954 Holden FJ ute here in Australia & it worked very well at seperating & capturing dirt & dust. Emergency braking or hard brake tests for rego used to see oil spill out over the hot exhuast manifold resulting in lots of smoke & luckily no fire.
Niice mate! So I guess my brother's FC or FE Holden (I forget which one) likely has an oil bath air filter too? That's funny about the heavy braking splashin oil oil about under heavy braking!😂!
@@nevillegoddard4966 Both the FE and FC Holden had an oil bath airfilter. There were three different styles of oil bath airfilters on Holden's from 1948 to 1958. I think GMH Holden phased them out in favour of paper elements as the risk they posed of fire in the event of a collision or roll over.
@@dustyfarmer Oh right! Thanks for the info mate!
You're correct in your assumption of how that choke is adjusted. It's adjustable so you can change the time of how long the choke stays closed to warm the engine up. In really cold weather the housing that the element is in can be adjusted to tighten it up to make it take longer to open the choke. In warm weather when a choke isn't needed, it can be set so the choke is wide open. I've been working on engines since I was 16 and have been through a large number of carbs either rebuilding them or adjusting them. I'm 62 and retired now but still turning wrenches at home. Personally, if I had that generator, I'd clean it up, rebuild the carb, give it a nice paint job, made sure it ran ok and use it as a conversation piece. Why go through the trouble of overhauling the engine, will it be put back in service? I think it'd be better off just cleaned up and painted....just my .02 worth.
I love restoring old machinery! Thanks for this video! Those old gensets would use the generator head as a starter motor if a battery was connected. I've got a few that use that technique.
I want you guys to do whatever you think is fun. You seem to be having a fun time working on this on your own schedule. I'll tune in for whatever happens.
Please do it. We like to learn more about how the whole assembly operates. How it was done back then is always neat to learn and remember.
Hey y’all. I work on Farmall and other old engines. Regarding the thermosyphon and the oil bath air cleaner, both work really well when maintained. For the air cleaner, the cup should take the same oil as the engine, and as the air is sucked in by the engine, dirt and dust gets blown into the mesh which is splashed by oil. When the engine shuts off, the oil and debris settles to the bottom of the cup. To clean it, change the oil in the cup and remove the screened filler material and wash in kerosene or heating oil. As for the radiator, the engine uses a thermosyphon system. It will seem to not be working when running for the first few minutes, but this is normal because the system lacks a pump, the water must heat up first before it will move. To use this system, do not use Dexcool or other automotive coolants. Use a standard antifreeze (green) coolant or straight water. Buy pre-mixed or mix before pouring in because with the absence of a water pump, the coolant and water will not mix and will result in inefficient cooling. As the water heats in the engine it rises to the neck where it enters the coil, the fan blows the heat out of the water where it becomes cool and falls with convection, entering the water block again. To clean it of rust and dirt, first drain the system (and remove radiator cap). Then with engine on idle, fill the system with water and baking soda (pre mixed) or for an extreme clean, muriatric acid, or white vinegar and install cap. After an hour of running, turn off the engine, drain it and flush with cold water until water runs clear. Repeat as necessary. A well maintained thermosyphon system is reliable and efficient at cooling an engine but will require you to keep the coolant whether that be water, or antifreeze clean and always filled. My best tip on filling is to avoid under filling, which can be done by filling to the top of the radiator neck and running engine for normal use. Any extra coolant will exit out the overflow pipe and it will level itself off based on heat and pressure. Last tip is to make sure your water (if used) is soft. Hard water that is over chlorinated will damage the cast iron and radiator tubes, and water with excess minerals will calcify the block making cooling inefficient. The best choice for water is leaving a few buckets out during a rainstorm. Rain water is soft and much better for thermosyphon systems. Hope this helps y’all.
For a lot of RUclipsrs out there, I would vote for just getting it running and go from there. You guys are in a really unique spot with a machine shop at hand. In your case, I would vote giving it the 2024 treatment by taking it apart, machine to good tolerances, balancing it and putting it back together with either the factory color for vintage reasons or high tech colors or coating for a vintage-modern look. It would be cool to see what old might look and run like if it was given todays specs.
Also (if it hasn't been mentioned), the direction of the spring on the carb dictates that the heat will open the choke. To check the adjustment, put the carb in a fridge and a freezer to see if there's a difference in how open they are. I think fridge should be partially to mostly closed with freezer being all closed. There will be a temperature it's expected to be completely open, maybe in the manual.
Restore it! Preserving history will always benefit the future generations. I'm sharing this with my club members of Power From The Past in Arizona. We will be following for updates. Thanks for rescuing this "old iron".
There is a utuber called Small Engine Mechanic. These generator engines are his speciality.
Mike
His day job is servicing modern gen-sets. Very smart and talented guy!
I haven't seen him post in awhile. Just got married and bought a House.
@@dans_Learning_Curve well that's his shed time over!!!!
Buddy of 305roadking. This is right up Mike's alley
The grit on the bottom of the oil pan is deposits left over from using leaded gas many years ago and using the oil from long ago that let the lead sink to the bottom of the oil pan unlike todays oil that keeps the dirt suspended in the oil.
As you said, today’s carb cleaner is nothing like what we had up to the mid 80s. The old stuff would strip a carb in 30-45 minutes. When it was used up and dirty, the heavy line mechanic would take it and use it for his engine parts for the next month or 2. Before we knew better, after pulling the carb out of the agitator tank, we would wash it off in the mechanics bathroom sink. A fresh tank of the stuff would strip the top layers of skin off your hands if you had to reach into it. Made sure you never went home with dirty hands. I remember getting angry at the heavy line mechanic when he would put valve covers in it to strip the paint off of them. Would ruin the cleaner. Today, ultrasonic cleaners work better than the chemical cleaners available today.
Onan makes amazing generators. Can't wait to see you get into it.
Now this would be awesome pice of hardware to rebuild and get running just for the nostalgia. Some collector would probably love it.
B4 you get too deep into it, you may wanna have the coil, or generator alternator winding check? To make sure the thing can theoretically produce electricity. And pressure test your cooling system
Indeed carb dip is nothing like it used to be. Most of us still doing carb work have switched to using ultrasonic cleaners now. They work incredibly well.
That’s a honeycomb radiator. They were popular in the 40’s.
The generator probably also doubles as your starter. The crank should be backup.
You should pull the plugs to prime the oil system before cranking it over.
The GenSet should be governed to 1800 rpm and have adequate balance to run smoothly.
I have a couple Crosley powered 3-phase generators. Fun things to play with.
Dad owned one on the farm in north dakota after ww2,wired the house in 1940,REA WAS DELAYED TILL 48.ALMOST WAS ELECTICUTED CRANKING IT ONCE.SOLD IT IN 70,I BOUGHT SAME THING AT Auction ten years ago.army green was the color.Saw a few of them around here in my lifetime.thanks for the videos. Very interesting content
Montgomery wards, holy crap. I havent heard that name since the 80s/90s
Looks like an Onan W2C I think they were 2 kilowatt at 0.8 power-factor, and should run at 1800 RPM to make 60 HZ AC. You should really take the cover off the back, clean the slip rings, and make sure the brushes move freely in their holders, They tend to get stuck when they sit for a long time and you get arcing where the brushes ride on the slip rings. It can do a fair amount of damage if it goes on long
Montgomery Wards, Sears and J.C. Penny.......ah, my childhood....
Very interesting little engine, get it running and then decide if it needs a full on rebuild. Dodge Brothers cars from 1914 until 1925 bolted the carb directly to the block same as your little Onan. You two guys have a great channel.
I believe these generators were designed with all major components within the footprint of the radiator. This allowed for compact crating and best use of space when shipping. That’s why the tight spacing on the carb bolts.
The little plate is a restrictor plate. They were different ones used depending on altitude and temperature. Fuel pump is an AC pump and easy to get parts for. The pump was used on nearly everything from generators to big tractors. Find one and change our the diaphragm to your shaft. Now, for the big question, rebuild or not? Get it running first, have the generator checked out then if ok do a full restore on it.
The neighbor has one of those badged Fairbanks Morse.
They called it an "Electric Plant".
Yeats ago, I'd installed a transfer switch so it can be used as standby house power.
Get it runing and then restore it to new, continuing story tor episodes to come. Loved the Willis jeep engine saga!
“So, engineers were always jerks” says the kid with the engineering degree.
yeah , funny , but doesnt mean he is wrong .....
I think engineers don’t give one though to the guy who have to fix the stuff they design. As an aircraft mechanic of 45 years, some of the stuff I have seen is VERY difficult to repair
@@jamesberdine8574 more a case of they don't get paid to care, if the one paying your wage doesn't care if you design something to be easily maintained you won't think about it while doing the math for if it'll stay together
In this case, they put the carb so close to the block to narrow the total width so they could fit the whole thing into a shipping crate. Another carb mount that is no fun is the B&S mounted with screws. Not Philips, no hex, but slotted screws, at an angle partially hidden behind the carb.
@@HITURA you are right. Make it easy to manufacture and out the door. Then it is someone else’s problem.
That generator is a piece of history. I would reach out to Onan and see if they would participate is such a piece of history. I once bought an old paint compressor from my brother-in-law and used it for nearly 10 years. tt was made in the 40's when I was a child. What amazed me it ran when you tried and was so quite. Parts on my body are waring out at the age of 82 and I appreciate that old technology. I always wanted to rebuild an engine so I appreciate your vid's
put the engine back together and send it! that's neat that the generator turns the engine to start it, i'm not sure when ALCO or GE started using this idea on their locomotives I will tell you that modern GE locomotives still use the batteries and traction alternator to start the diesel engine.
Reddish color paint on inside of the oil pan and block is a product called Glyptal and was originally a GE product. Great video and I look forward to seeing more on this great little gen set.
Some restoration fanatics(?) use that on the internals of engines they restore that are not likely to see much run time. It prevents the iron gizzards from rusting due to condensation, etc, and also makes the oil drain out more readily as the oil 'rides on the paint surface' moreso than it does on cast iron, and leaves no residue.
I went thru a mid 70s single cylinder air cooled Onan. Very similar basic construction as this water cooled twin. Had a lot of fun & education going thru the 2.5 KVA Onan I had.
The carb cleaner I remember came in like a 3 gallon metal bucket. In all the years my dad had his service station we never had to buy a new bucket. The liquid inside was, basically, black and depending on what you were cleaning, there might be a light wisp of smoke when you pulled the parts out
I have a vague memory of there being a 'top layer' of oil(?) that kept the cleaner from evaporating too fast. I think our hot tank had one, so maybe I have confused the two, or both had a layer. trichlorethylene - trike - eats your liver form the inside out..... Just like the Carbona home spot remover used on fabric and upholstery to blot spots. Now NLA as it was poison and some did not comply with the instructions. I think prior to EPA cutting back on a lot of other sutff.
My 1936 Cord had a Stromberg carburetor with a choke that had an identical type choke mechanism, a coiled spring and a heating element that was energized when the ignition was started. When the engine was warmed up, the spring was warm enough to keep the choke open even with the ignition switch off. This type of choke control was replaced in later cars with a "heat riser" tube the transferred exhaust manifold heat up to the choke coil, worked better as the electric elements were known to burn out after a few years.
The oil bath air cleaners on the old VW Beetle worked really well, just messy to service.
Thanks for another interesting video Jim and Nick.
It is very interesting and informative and enjoyable to watch.
This old generator system is really an interesting project you both have taken on. So interesting to see how it is put together as you disassemble the unit. I believe it is very well built the way it looks so far.
Has had some use but not a tremendous amount of time on it.
Sincerely appreciate the way you both explain the parts as you take it apart and how you believe it functions and all that. Dearly love the way you look at parts and analyze things as you go. Most v interesting project. Looking forward to following you on this one.
The retired Air Force veteran.
The story I’ve heard many times on the oil bath air cleaners is that they worked very effectively but the manufacturers wised up and figured out they could make quite a bit more money charging for filter canisters. Ironically, sometimes if a farmer was really keen on cleaning out his filter element with compressed air all the time , it could rip the material and let dust get sucked in more easily. The oil bath was pretty fool proof if you kept good clean oil in it. The only thing we’ve ever run in them is regular engine oil.
Same exact thing I was told by a coworker with 40 years into working on our Thermo King Reefer equipment.
I have a 49 Farmall C tractor and it uses a oil bath air filter and it works very good . I've had the tractor for a long time and just did a tune up on it the other day and changed the oil for the oil bath air filter on it .
My 1965 Volkswagen beetle had an oil bath air cleaner on it...🙂
I think most end-users were loathe to get their hands dirty for both auto and other filters, so pleated paper became the filter that would actually maybe get service now and then. An oil bath, caked with collected dirt, was (is) a real mess to keep clean, and it was most common until the mid-1950's. The labyrinth the air passed through above the oil also needed a good slosh in gasoline/solvent and then a dip in oil... who would do all that?
If you add in the additional revenue for replacement paper filters, the lowered cost of the filter housing/gizzards, it is a double win for vendor. The army and other industrial purchasers who bought at the Onan level of product specified the minimum of parts to stock, and air filters could be cleaned by motor pool soldiers...
tom
I am a retired machinist. Get it running to find out what it needs, then restore to original specifications and brag about how well it runs!!!
Love watching you both work so we'll together!!
This video is the reason I like this channel so much. What a great video. We had a Lincoln welder that had an Onan engine in it.
I too am a boomer, only three years younger than this treasure. I wish that my son would find & buy me stuff like this, but in reality, I have far more projects & stuff than I can ever use, but a welding unit like this would be very handy at times.
The thermo siphon system had a couple of advantages. It was cheap [no pump] & it actually worked well, & it worked best at near boiling, which helped the engine to heat & vaporise the poor grade of pre 1950's fuel, ensuring smooth running through good combustion & of course lower running costs when all of the liquid fuel that leaves the carb is vaporised & burned.
But wait, there's more. Dodge engines from 1914 till sometime in the early '20's had the carb bolted directly to the cylinder block. The intake passage passed between No. 2 & 3 cylinders to the opposite side of the block, then branched via an internal T section to feed Cylinders 1& 2 on one side of the central cross passage, then 3 & 4 on the other. All of the intake passage from carb flange to valve seat were cast in block. The upside is that the crude fuel of the day [close to Kerosene] needed heat to vaporise it properly, & this system provided the heat that many other engines did not. Particularly in the north with plenty of snowfall & sub zero temperatures. Dodge engines of the period were well known for smooth running & great mechanical reliability & this design was a contributing element.
Hmmmm, to rebuild or not to rebuild, this, is the question.
Worn guides, suspect valves, worn cam & an implied responsibility to restore it to a fully serviceable standard [ie, like new], so, pull it down & let us all see how it works.
The red colored paint in the oil pan could be a version of Glyptol which is used to seal course cast iron
GE Glyptol electric motor paint... Is what that dull red paint is ..
Used often on the insides of high performance engines to make the internal surfaces more "slick" and speed the return of oil to the pan.
@@AbeFrohman528 a/so stop any porus casting from leaking.
Oil bath air filters are GREAT!
You just have to remember to clean them out and change the oil.
On my Willy's pickup I did it every oil change.
Thanks for this video , interesting challenge you fells have taken on. My dad was a wholesale distributor for standard oil back in 1949, the 12,000 gallon rail cars were filled at hillyard next to Spokane from a pipeline. When they arrived he would pump the gas into storage tanks and then go up to the top and empty a small vial of dye into the gas to brand. Red was regular 87 octane and blue was supreme 89 octane. What came through the pipeline was clear, each company would add different color to brand.
Jim, that choke is very similar to a type made by Holly. They were used on AMC - jeep engines from the 1950 to about 1978. This type of choke is fairly common on stationary engines.
I'm getting near the age that I'd like to head out to the garage/shop and just tinker with things. There is no money in it unless you find find a person that really wants it. What was cool back in the days of 'Monkey Ward' and especially Sears is:
Sears: They genuinely carried even the smallest parts for stuff that they sold(Lawn tractors, dish washers, washing machines, etc.). They were sold with manuals that included highly-detailed printed parts blow-up illustrations with part numbers, They were damned nice and responsible manuals...not just a gloss-over. You could get those parts from Sears usually for the next 40 years after the damned gizmo was made. Not in any way true with today's machinery. Sears is sorely missed to me.
The original color was a medium to dark green and the orange/red color inside the pan is a Glyptal type coating. Glyptal, a GE product, was used to seal porous materials such as iron and provide a smooth coating for oils and such to flow over.. It was also used (and may still be) in electrical motors and windings.
That partial intake block off plate was probably to aid carb function and to increase turbulence in the intake stream for better atomization. At least that was their thought in 1940ish I think...
I was thinking a restriction plate as the engine maybe multi horsepower, determined by carb size. Or maybe the carb was multi use to engine horsepower.
@@M_Phipps0520 could be right... The mil spec stuff is weird like that
@@M_Phipps0520It may have been used to keep the max rpm down to stay within the limits of that particular gen set.
Would an increase in the vacuum on cylinder side be part of what you are saying? Just wondering...
I didn't think I'd ever see another one of these onan gensets,we had one of these running an of grid house here in oz until a shed fire a few years ago, it was still used regularly and ran quite well,it was painted dark green
Measure the compression. Measure the oil pressure. If they're both good and it not knocking, don't fix it, it is not broken, don't fix it.
Run it at 80% of it's rated electrical load. See if it struggles to keep up. Also check how it handles an electric motor starting surge, maybe a window air conditioner, If it stumbles and sags then it doesn't have enough compression or the cam lift is worn so it is not getting enough charge in the cylinders.
That system is overbuilt. It is designed to run for long periods under heavy loads, kind of like marine engines.
That looks like an identical fuel pump to what is used on mid 1930's Chevrolet engines. I had to replace a diaphragm on my 1935 and a replacement is made and sold by Jim Carter's Truck Parts in MO. That was in 2004 that I did that but I think they still sell them. Them two nuts you were removing on top of the pump had flat pieces of formica type material with springs in mine and appeared to be check valves for the pump.
That makes sense that it would be an AC Delco part as the one that I rebuilt is a GM product.
make sure the generator works before digging into thee engine, fixing a bad generator might be very tough.
@craigjohnson2122! Great Point! Call in the electrical specialist in to verify the integrity of generator windings & wires; check too see if stator shaft, bearings, bushings are good; check integrity of all connection points; verify if it could be rewound or repaired if ever needed, prior to engine rebuild.
yes I was wondering about that as well. Isn't there a known issue where a generator has sat for years without use will no longer generate power. That sticks in my head so I crank up my back-up generator every year and let it power something for 20-30 minutes. May be one of those old wives' tale though...
The rebuild isn't what's tough, just have to find a rebuilder that can hand wind stators and knows how to fabricate obsolete parts. I spent 20 years of my life rebuilding electric motors/generators/alternators and we specialized in obsolete units.
If you plug a drill into a non working generator and spin it backwards with another drill it'll make it start producing electric. Don't know how it does it but an older guy showed me that trick years ago and it worked
the same generator motors the engine over for starting... and we know that works.... so it is highly likely that it will also generate electricity. If it does not, the problem will likely be in the components that control the electricity, no the components that generate the electricity.
Like you said “ If it ain’t broke don’t fix it “. If it runs fine then get the generator working and it will be golden. I’m fascinated by the design of different engines. This one is truly unique.
Not so; the honda 305 cc motorcycle engine was laid out the same way. Cylinders fired alternately, but travelled together with balance relying on crank weight opposite the rod journals to keep it from vibrating itself to death. 305's were smoothies in terms of running though a bit sluggish on the acceleration side. Equivilant size yamaha 2 stroke engine would bury the honda on the strip but honda would usually put pull at top end, imho.
Okay, this generator should have been built to government specs to be used in all the theaters during the war! A good source of potential advice would be James Condom’s channel where he primarily fixes and knows more about motors and more importantly generator repairs on RUclips! Put a little money into a content generator for the channel, and the value of a generator that’s probably very collectible from WW2 re-enactors, to just collecting! This may be gold for you!
James Condon, 😂, he might not like " Condom "!
Things were used in viet nam as welll..FSB Ike had three of them powering a bank of radios so the hq company could communicate with the rest of the universe. Things ran very smooth & quiet, sat on the ground and ants would happily den up directly beside them. (Ants don't seem to appreciate vibration.) Never heard of one of these failing unless sumbuddy fergot to change the oil or put the what passed for fuel in them. These were set up to jointly run off a 55 gallon drum of mogas (motor fuel). Dunno how long a 55 would last.
This inspires me to get my little old Onan running.
When you see the price of Onan parts, you'll see why we call them "Onan The Barbarian".
Ha! you betcha.
We used to service a random selection of backup generators, one of which was a little Onan air cooled autostart diesel genset. The sparkies we used to team with couldn't get the set up to 50Hz, and we found that sometime in the distant past it had broken/lost a governor spring and adjuster, so one of our predecessors had lashed up something using a too-heavy spring he found in the junk drawer, and there was no way the poor little thing could get to its designed rpm. To our surprise, the OG spring was still available, but the price was just eye watering-something like our hourly charge out rate for a tension spring a couple of inches long and 1/2 inch in diameter with a funky loop on one end and a hook on the other. And we still had to fabricate the unobtainium adjuster to use it.
Make it run as is..... and go from there.... enjoyed this video.....THANK YOU
Get it running then do the machine work to make it perfect.
The even firing setup crank is for the smooth rotation of the generator & electrical output for radios etc. Lighting doesnt need this.Entertained again, Thanks.
Put it back together and test run. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If during the test run you observe more serious problems, then go for the total rebuild. You would be very surprised at how durable and functional old engines and equipment like that are.
These are 'unfussy' designs that can get by with poor quality oil and be repaired by farmers(fixed anything and everything, especially in WWII) who can take a tin can and make it into a thermal reflector, an antenna, or a crock pot, depending.
I love this! Always loved working on small engines. B&S, Tecumseh, motorcycles, generators. Thanks for doing this video!
That part on the carburetor with the "D" opening is because this generator was once used by NASCAR at Talladega so it required a restrictor plate. They thought it would make the electricity better by keeping all the generators bunched up in a pack. It was alright until the "BIG ONE" happened. Then they were in the dark the rest of the night.
I enjoy your videos. Keep them coming. Thanks
HAZMAT training calls your carb cleaner: “Methyl Ethyl Death”. - wash your hands…you’ll be fine, as my dad would say. 😂
Guys at a metal shop I used to work at would put MEK on cuts. The said it would sting for a minute but quit bleeding and heal faster
I'm definitely voting for a full engine rebuild 😊
"White gas" was what we called the stuff that went in a Coleman lantern/stove. In the 70's anyhow.
Isn't white gas also called naptha? I believe it's sold now as camp stove and pressure lantern fuel by Coleman.
@@ronwilken5219 - Yes! Naptha, that's what I couldn't remember.
@@DrFiero We used to buy White Gas from an Amaco station for our lawn mower. it was the high test they had.
Zippo lighter fluid is also naptha.
"White gas' was the fuel that was used in the 'blow torch' dad used to sweat the copper pipes and tubing in the house he built. Coleman fuel is pretty much the same but with additives. He bought at the 'no-lead' Amoco gas stations. An employee wanted it more than Dad, so he took it w/o permission. I found one, but have yet to fire it up.
This should be a good series
RUclipsr SmallEngineMechanic has a several part series on 1945 version. Highly recommend viewing.
I’d absolutely love to see a full restore on this thing. Such an interesting little engine and genny!
If the compression is decent... press on...
Awosme viedo. Saw this on marketplace and glad it went to a good home!
Tear it down, modernize it, clean/bead-blast everything, paint it original OD Green. 🙂
I love the idea
I agree too!
Its a joy to watch you guys
It's unfair to blame engineers for tight stuff like that. Any good engineer, given free reign, would make it perfect. Unfortunately, they (we) are usually given a deadline and horrible parameters to work with (make this work with this for $x, and have it done in two days).
Agreed!
Still engineers fault.
I have a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering, hence the jokes. I agree lol
No they wouldn’t. They don’t look at repair at all, only basic service.
Every “Engineer “ should be made to work in a repair facility for at least 5 years before they are allowed to start “engineering “ anything. The repair side of the industry would be so much better for ALL people. Probably a lot less expensive also for everyone.
If it were mine, I’d piece it back together and see how it runs. But it’s yours, and I love watching you guys work, and love seeing unusual machines, and how you make them work right. So of course I want to see you go through it completely 😁
Enjoying the content
Go for it! Looks like a fun project.
I have a 1948 Tow Motor fork lift with a Continental flat head 6. It has a Zenith updraft carburetor that is a REAL ODBALL. The only one I could find was over 400 bucks about 7-8 years ago. It's cast steel/iron and it's SHOT!!!
You might want to check with tractor parts places that specialize in old versions. Many used updraft carburetors and Continental made a lot of different engines to supply some of the smaller tractor makers.
I’m looking forward to seeing this next weekend.
When I first moved to CFCO radio in Chatham, Ontario, in 1995, they had as a standby generator the "big brother" to that generator. It was a flat head four cylinder that looked like the motor out of my 1956 Ford Anglia in Africa. You started it via the generator windings for the 12 volt battery, while the alternator produced up to 10 kw at 208 volts AC.
When the station was combined with CKSY in 1997, the generator was moved to their studio and installed there, where it provided backup power for both station's studios. When the big power outage of the eastern seaboard happened, the generator failed, seized solid, because no one bothered to keep a close check on the engine oil and after running continuously for more than twelve hours it gave up the "smoke" at TCG said. It too was made in 1946 and was also that same blu, but underneath was military drab green suggesting its history was war surplus. I believe its tags said Onan on i, but it's long gone, replaced with a Honda 3 cylinder diesel and now a new Onan unit.
As for the reddish-orange coating lining the oil pan - Glyptal, maybe?
Love it. Never seen one, never will see one. Thanks for sharing.
Our Onan was green when we bought it, not sure where dad bought it in Duluth, MN.
I say run it.. the worst that could happen is a rebuild , these things were build solidly, yes its worn as you've shown but at least you'll have the data, go for it boys😊
I look forward to seeing the generator run again.
The ONAN is a nice well built engine made to be rebuilt. It is put together in the typical fashion for the day, but with a few oddball ideas possibly to get around patents. You may even find some parts are still around or standard sized engine more modern, or a different manufactures parts may be a replacement. The Blue color is Monkey Wards color so it's original over the orange primer. Another manufacture was Wisconsin Engine. The Wisconsin vintage engines like THD, TJD (as well as larger vblock engines) were similar in ways to the ONAN engine there. Consisting of a oil sump, a block, and cylinder block and head all bolted together so any part could be replaced if worn out or damaged. Crankshaft on ball bearings, mechanical fuel pump run off the cam etc.. The THD is even firing making smooth power for for generators, and Hobart welders, it's twin the TJD was odd firing. The ONAN engine may also be even firing. That radiator is all brass and any hole in the wall radiator shop (the old one that know what they are doing) can boil, rod, clean and repair any leaks.
This little outfit is a perfect static display project Jim.
A great talking point and one i most certainly would look forward to you both working your magic on the engine, solving any 'problems' along the way.
Go for it.....please👍🏻👍🏻
🏴🇬🇧
I say go ahead and restore it. Its a basically solid 78 year old generator. You are right about carb cleaners. The chlorinated products i used back in the day were effective cleaners but very nasty. You didnt want to inhale the fumes or get the stuff on your skin. Those old cleaners had to be respected. The oil looks good to me. Considering the poorer quality of earlier oils, you have very little sludge in the pan. You have the skills to make this a practical and useful unit. I say bring it back to useful life.