We take it for granted, but amazing how Kyle shoots a video like that in one freaking take without a drop of hesitation. That was crystal clear. Kudos!
@@SonaEnergy_CK after watching many OOS videos, I can assure that Kyle is a beast! I sometimes picture him as the calculating Hangover Zach with all this EV stuff flying around!
This charging limitation seems like a good table / Google sheet would help clarify it. List of the cars and their voltages and their internal dc-dc converter limiting factors (in combination with Teslas v3 supercharger limit voltage of course)
Maybe I missed a cut, but your delivery of fairly complicated material for 20 minutes in a single take is amazing! Not gonna shed too many tears for Taycan and Lucid owners getting only 50KW at Superchargers. They'll survive (and drive amazing cars).
Thank you! I was watching other videos of people testing out Tesla charging and not knowing why they were charging slow and I didn't know either. I think I learned more in this video than I have all week (which is saying a lot for me :D)!
Excellent explanation. I was not aware there were so many approaches to battery pack arrangement affecting charging. I have an Ioniq 5 and live in North Dakota. Access to the Tesla Superchargers will still be a massive improvement since the most capable chargers are rated at 62 kW here and they may be 200 miles apart. Not sure I can go that far at 80-85 mph. First world problems. Again, thank you.
@@andrewr3362 According to Tesla, the Bismarck Superchargers have not been upgraded to Magic Docks. I will visit the site to be certain. (Just checked. None of the chargers appear to have Magic Docks.)
Yes, it’s a problem for Teslas. The main thing that will become an issue is that when an EV with a port on the “wrong” side tries to charge, it not only blocks two of our charging spaces, but it doesn’t give an accurate estimate of available charging stalls in our onboard route planner. I will show there are twice as many stalls available. Our cars also automatically adjust charging stops based on the availability of stalls. If these aren’t accurate, it’s a big problem that will result in waits. I honestly hope they don’t put longer cords. Our short cords are clean, neat, and don’t get run over and damaged like those long cords on other stations (Even Tesla destination cords are never coiled and hung up, and I’ve seen them damaged from being run over). If anything, maybe you guys can carry an extension cord.
@@KatAdair Other than my charging port being on the wrong side, I do not expect to need a longer cable. Depriving Tesla owners of space will not be an issue in my area, either. There are so few EVs that the public chargers, including Tesla's, are seldom used. Maybe someday but not soon here will there be crowds at the chargers. I am haunting the internet hoping that Hyundai will announce an update so that the Ioniq 5 can utilize the Tesla chargers. Their chargers here are the v3 model. Oh, and from what I have read, the v4 chargers have longer cords. It comes down to the cord management system on any charger.
@@leslarson2642 on my road trips between Colorado and Austin, the Tesla superchargers are very much in use, so that’s the basis of my concern. Where I live now, in the mountains in Colorado, we do have two supercharger “stations,” an older 150 kW one with 12 chargers, and a newer 250 kW with 8. I wouldn’t have any problem with opening up the 150 kW to other EVs; it’s also closer to I-70. There is an EA (I believe) at Walmart a few miles away with four chargers, which I’m happy to say has been pretty busy. I charge at home, so it’s not an issue. But if I head down to Denver, the stations I use there are always full with Teslas. If I showed up there to see a non-Tesla taking up two spaces or spending two hours charging, that would be a big issue for the users of that station. I heard somebody say that Tesla might not open the busier stations to non-Teslas, and that might be a solution for now. I do want EVs to become prevalent, so I struggle with this. I really want to embrace it. I’m just baffled by how EV companies have botched their rollouts. A good friend has a Mustang Mach-E that she’s afraid to drive because she has no idea how to find charging stations. She’s charging 110v at home.
Volts are a lot more similar to pressure than pipe size. Amps are what goes with size and how bigger pipes / thicker cables allow more flow with lower losses. You need twice as much "pressure" to get power into a 900V pack as you do on a 450V one, kind of like trying to fill a 200psi tank with a 100psi compressor. Not going to work beyond 100psi.
You are wicked smart! It's very complicated, and you actually made it understandable. Thanks. And it is no wonder it has taken EVs many, many years to get to where they are - this electrical stuff is complex!
In case you missed it last night, the head of charging said V4 chargers are being installed in Europe now, and the ones coming to US will have longer cables to better accommodate CCS cars. Your dad will be happy! Looking forward to them upgrading those V2 chargers!
Not a fan of longer cables that people won’t wrap back up and that get damaged by being run over. Plus they’re dirty, and your hands get gross…I have a white interior and would prefer to keep it that way.
@@KatAdair the problem is that shorter cables will be damaged if they are not lengthened at lest 2 more feet specially when the cyber truck will ever come . I know you have a real issue since there’s no place to clean your hand specially since the white interior is a magnet for dirt and grime .
I run a small public 500V DC station in Sweden, here are the limitations for E-GMP and Taycan/E-tron gt at low voltage charger. E-GPM: 230A @ 455V to ≈ 80% SoC Taycan: 350A @ 360-396V to ≈ 54% SoC.
In Europe (France in fact), I checked several recent superchargers: they are marked on the inward side for 1000V & 425A. And forgot to check if they indeed output the advertised 250kW but they did provide more than 200kW.
I'll try to have a look at a Supercharger site here in Wavre, Belgium, there are V2's and V3's - I'll comment here right after (might be in a couple of days).
I actually think this is GREAT NEWS for all Tesla owners that are worried about Tesla Charging sites getting busy (which I actually think is ridiculous). My belief is that most (well informed) CCS vehicle owners will favor the available CCS charging infrastructure that is available. First, CCS is probably going to be FREE for them given all the (really dumb) programs that give away free KWHs or at a minimum, cheaper that going to a Tesla site, but it now seems like the CCS will be the faster way to charge a vehicle. If I personally owned a CCS vehicle, Tesla would be "break glass in the event of an emergency only" sort of usage situation.
The problem is even if most well informed CCS vehicle owners will favor the available CCS charging infrastructure, they are an ever decreasing minority of CCS vehicle owners. Majority will go wherever it is most convenient. For many that is going to be EA right now because of the free programs, but after those expire for many it may become Superchargers. I don't believe at all that the number of CCS cars which will go to a different station because it is faster will at all offset the added traffic cause by CCS cars charging slower, especially when many of those CCS cars will have to block a second stall to charge due to the cable length. Just looking at the stations nearest to me, the EA station is farther away and doesn't have many businesses near it that I might want to stop into while charging. There is a pet store, a couple furniture stores, and a pizza place. The supercharger though is closer and has a Starbucks, bakery, pharmacy, gym, and a couple lunch spots in the same parking lot. Even if the Supercharger might be 10 to 15 minutes slower for my car, If I were to use DC fast charging on a regular basis, I might pick the supercharger since I could better make use of my time (and I'm saving almost 10 minutes on driving anyway).
@@OmairArif The lack of basic EV knowledge by some recent EV buyers is concerning. In a group on FB, someone posted a picture of a new F-150 Lightening owner at a Tesla Supercharger expecting to charge their truck. They were told (lied to or the salesperson was equally mis-informed?) that the entire Tesla network was now open. Their next closest CCS station is like another 10-15 miles away or something like that and they were very upset. It is the BUYERS responsibility to know all this, but still.
As an electrical engineer your analogy of pipe sizes representing voltage is bewildering. 'pipe' size is more akin to current. Voltage is like pressure to push the current into the battery.
Well, until this, there really hasn't been much reason for it in the US. And if they start rolling out V4s there may not be a reason for it for too long. We'll just have to see. If I were filling out my order sheet today though I'd probably spec it for that reason.
Thanks for doing this. The explanations of the communication between car and charger is really helpful to those of us who are a little challenged in their understanding of electrical theory and technology.
The 150kW DC inverter option on the Taycan was $460 in 2020. I think it’s $550 now. Not that expensive given the price of the car and a worthwhile upgrade if you road-trip imho.
Awesome detailed Video Kyle 👍🎉 Synchronistically, I was just reading some articles about the first V4 Supercharger, which is supposed to be built in Dateland, AZ ....Just off I-8, on the way to (East of) Yuma, AZ. It's supposed to have a Megapack and a 4500 sqft solar array, with 40 covered stalls, and 350Kw chargers! ...It's only 183 miles West of me, and I pass Dateland every time I drive to San Diego. I'll definitely be taking a ride out there, when they build it....
If the V3 superchargers cannot communicate with non-Tesla vehicles about their thermal state, then I would doubt that Tesla would take on the liability of exceeding the labeled current rating of the connectors.
Love the nerd out, Tesla may limit the CCS adapter as they are also dealing with the connection between their NACS and the CCS in the same body (cables get hot but plugs/sockets with wear over time gets hotter, two pug/sockets in close proximity may generate too much heat, only time will tell). Current does not flow unless there is a potential difference in voltage. In other words if a battery is at 500v and the charger matches it with 500v no current will flow. If the charger steps to 510v current will flow and if it steps to 520v more current will flow. If the battery exceeds the charger then you have the basis of vehicle to grid. Circuity within the chargers raise the charging voltage to match the current demand from the battery within the charger operating parameters of maximum voltage and current. All charging uses ISO 15118 which includes comms which will limit the charger output and all done by simplistic electronics therefore charger adaptors can be recognised by incorporating the same electronics, I believe its a resister that is the discreet component that sets the upper limit, simple to include an an adaptor.
Thanks so much for this detailed maybe too nerdy but very helpful explanation of charging a non-Tesla on a Tesla SC. I just finished Tom Moloughney's video in Brewster NY where he was checking out the Magic Dock on his Lightning and there was an R1T and a Lucid Air as well as 2 Tesla model 3s (I think) and the Lucid owner was only getting 45kW. Your deep dive explains that. Tom's big issue was, as you mention, the cable length. Tesla V4 SCs should be built with the longer cable but the existing V3s also need to get a longer cable with their Magic Dock upgrade. Anyway great video and some interesting questions with the Hummer split pack. Cheers and drive safely.
I have noticed, over my years of driving an ICE Vehicle, that different Branded Gas Pumps, have different length hoses. Only a few people try to stretch the hose across their car, to Refuel! The rest of us just pay attention to which side we fuel on, and park appropriately at the pumps! I suppose it will take some time for this new idea to get worked out, between Drivers seeking to Try the Tesla Experience and their vehicles fit.
@@robertweekley5926 Right! It seems Tesla forgot the old obvious ways. I wish all Tesla stalls were "pull through" like gas pumps. It takes up more room but even a pull in forward and then back out when done model would work better than the current back in style. Imagine a big CyberTruck maneuvering back-and-fill style! They'll likely just drive in from the other side, curbs, trees and parking bumpers beware. Cheers.
Yes, the Tesla network will be an excellent backup for CCS folks. However, in states with a limited charging network...this new capability will be a lifesaver for CCS cars.
The charger actually controls the voltage and the voltage difference makes the current flow. The greater the voltage difference the greater the current flow The common water analogy for electric is height difference for voltage. Flows from high to low And current flow in pipes. The larger pipe the larger the wire the more amps (water) can flow Always easier to use extremes to demonstrate
Good explanation. 95% of time I need a reliable 75kw near good food, coffee and toilets. When I get that I have a 30-60 minute break and get all the charge I need for another 3 hours driving, while looking after the battery pack better. I get some people want more, I just think it’s a little overstated for the average trip.
A bit of a clarification on the charging process Volts and Amps: Initially the charger will match the pack voltage. But when the charge power ramps up gradually, that is actually done by increasing the voltage a bit further, usually 10-20V depending on the charge power. I confirmed this through CarScanner. So in order to have current flowing through the pack in the charge direction, the charger has to first match the pack voltage and then add some to have the current flow. The pack itself also has some internal resistance (not sure if it is the same when charging and discharging, but it is there). As P=U*I, but also I=U/R, we get P=U^2/R. The charger will regulate power and current simply by changing the output voltage based on that formula (while in fact it's the car requesting that, charger just complies). As the pack voltage increases, to keep the same charging power, the charger output will too have to increase to keep the same "overvoltage" over the stationary pack voltage. Of course the pack resistance changes slightly on different SoC%, which also needs to be compensated for. When decreasing power, it would just get closer to the pack voltage, but keep above it unless ramping down to zero. It has another aspect to it: P=U^2/R works for the total charging power when you look at the total voltage. But it also denotes the heat losses in the battery when you plug in only the "overvoltage", so P_heat=(U_charge - U_pack)^2/R. It works out to few hundred watts of battery heating losses at ~85kW in my e-208, which seems about right given how much the pack warms up.
Indeed the diameter size of the pipe is the flow and current, hence conductors need to be thicker. Voltage is the pressure meaning how strong the pipe wall is (ie thick insulation in electrical.)
@@travellover3373 Voltage is NOT relatable to the diameter of the pipe. Voltage is pressure. A current flow requires a difference of electrical potential ( voltage difference). Fluid flow requires a pressure differential. I can have 1000 volts or a 1000 psi through a small or large "tube". The size of the tube relates to the resistance, and governs the flow in relation to the electrical or pressure differential
@@damp_squid Voltage is not pressure. Voltage is electromotive force way different than pressure. A 100 psi pressure in a 1-inch diameter water pipe will not give you the same cfm as a 100 psi pressure in a 2-inch diameter pipe.
If I had a wager, I'd bet the hummer EV gets about 120kW max. 350V @ 350A. My understanding is the series conversion happens on charging plugin during CCS negotiation. If the charger doesn't offer 800V, it won't put the batts in series. No DC step up/down necessary. But I don't know and I'd love to find out.
I get that people like to logic their own way through physics but the “pipe size” to represent voltage is a horrible analogy. If your going to simplify it down please use pressure = voltage, flow rate = current, and pipe size = resistance. There are still flaws with this analogy but it works rather than whatever was expressed above.
Glad I had my dad select the 150kW 400v option on his Taycan. You mentioned in the video it's a $1200-1500 option, but at least here in Canada it was only $520 (I wonder if you were thinking of the cost for the 19.2kW AC charging option which is more expensive)
Those plates should have a UL stamp on it. Tesla would have to have their equipment retested by Underwriter's Laboratories, to have the ratings on the plates changed.
One thought I keep having is I understand Tesla's network is mean't to be more of a "backup" for the cars that can't take full advantage of the charging speeds, however, will some people simply choose to use Tesla's network for reliability/consistency? Say someone with an E-GMP (without free EA charging) car has an option of an EA station with 4 stalls (2x 350's and 2x 150's) and a Tesla supercharger with 6+ stalls. Would you rather get ≈ 100kW quick, easy, and guaranteed OR take your chance at EA with faster speeds but maybe 50% of stations offline, a clunky handshake process that takes greater than a minute to activate, the possibility of only get marginally better speeds because both 350's are taken, etc etc. It will be interesting to see as time goes by what people choose to use and if the CCS stations can become more efficient and reliable. Cable-gate is an issue for the time being for sure.
Remember also that Teslas optimize battery temperature when navigating to a supercharger, this does not happen in other EVs. This can also be a limiting factor for other EVs, since the supercharger is extremely careful about battery temperature safety.
@@achilles-live Doesn't happen for other EV's going to Tesla Superchargers? In the E-GMP vehicles you can trick the system by inputting a different, nearby DCFC and still get all the benefits. In other EV's it might be more difficult or not possible I am not sure.
@@CarsMadeSimple It does not, that's the issue. I know some EVs can preheat manually, but that's about it for automatic routing. Otherwise, they only preheat to some specific chargers. Some EVs can't preheat, such as the VW iD series, that have no heatpump anymore.
Kyle, for those of us who are also Tesla owners and are really concerned that this will cause problems with wait times and vehicles taking up two stalls to charge…what can you say to reassure us that this was a good decision on Tesla’s part? I see some people excited, but I’m not feeling it. I don’t want to see longer charging cords because the Destination Chargers are always not coiled back up and sometimes damaged because they are run over, and I can only imagine the same if our beloved Superchargers had longer cords. I’m also VERY concerned about the two-stall issue…it seems like the onboard route planner will not be able to accurately gauge the number of available stalls if most of the non-Tesla vehicles take up two spaces. Just looking for a ray of sunshine…as a diehard Tesla fan, I don’t want to share, but I also want our country to wean itself off fossil fuels. But the minute I have to wait 30 minutes or more to charge because of a non-Tesla taking up two spaces and charging at a fifth of the speed I’m accustomed to, I’m not going to be happy about it!
Thanks Kyle. As an EE, I love these nerdy details far more than the average EV driver. I believe Tesla is playing it very safe for now using the test of time approach. We may see more charging power months down the road. Remember, the primary reason they are doing it is to capture charger funds from the Biden Admin. It will also generate some additional profit. Grants will not be tied to how many amps are pumped into a Hummer or Lightning.
Actually, the grants do require a minimum of 150 KW. It’s debatable whether these upgraded V3 shared units actually qualify. I hope so. In any case V4 superchargers should be fine.
What should the charging etiquette be between tesla-nontesla charging stalls given the need to block a second stall when a nontesla port is on the opposite side of vehicle?
Tesla needed the "public network" title to fund expansion through government money. They will develop more "friendly" architecture. While some Tesla elements lack, charging is not one of them. Their product and field teams are the absolute best, no competition, hands down.
The average user isn't going to care. All day in some areas I see supercharger stations full during peak times at 55 cents per kwh. Most don't care what they are paying and probably won't care about how long they sit their either. But at any rate, there should be a time limitation charging to keep station spots available.
I think the actual way it works is easier to understand. The charger has to output a higher voltage than your battery pack, and it regulates current (Amps) by raising and lowering the charger voltage. The amount of voltage (potential) difference between the battery pack and charger is directly proportional. Large difference, fast charge rate. Little difference, slow charge rate. The voltage of a fully charged Model S battery pack is ~400 Volts, and a fully discharged one is ~292 Volts.
For Li-on batteries charging profile is constant current up to the max cell voltage eg 4.2V per cell ( actually any voltage below 4.2V will have the same effect) once that terminal voltage has been reached the charging profile changes to constant voltage and it is the current that starts to reduce to the point at which the battery is considered full when the current drops to around 1% of capacity (if i remember correctly). Once charge starts if the charger voltage can be set to 1000v this will have no affect because the internal resistance of the battery alone with the set current will pull the charger voltage down to the pack voltage. while in constant current mode the voltage is in affect floating and just rises up as the charge state increases in the battery. this is how the BMS works.
State of Charge just posted a video that includes a chat with a Lucid owner who charged at about 45kW at the Brewster NT Supercharger location. This confirms what you are saying.
@@73av8r5 Right - Out of Spec Reviews has discussed this, and it probably has to do with the way they have to charge their ~800V packs. Other brands do this differently and have different charging rates.
Thanks, very informative and also a bit confusing as lots of technical details. I saw a Marques Brownlee (Auto Focus) video from his experience with his Rivian in NY state at a new Tesla Magic Dock location. Really simple and laid out the current issues with the system both the pros and some of the negatives such as port on side/front of the car, etc. Overall, a good start as I sold my Telsa after 3 years and looking forward to a new and more interesting EV, and now with the potential for all the supercharger network stations opening up, this will seal the deal on placing an order.
An idea I have for a video, that no one may even want to watch, is a road trip test between a Chevy Bolt and a Hyundai Ionic 5. I know the Bolt charges slower but what effect would it have during a normal drive, stopping to charge during lunch and bathroom breaks.
I’m more worried about charge port locations on vehicles and cord lengths. If a Rivian for example, plugs into a supercharger, technically they are now blocking 2 spots because of where their port is. At busy superchargers, this will SUCK! Long cables could solve this? Maybe V4?
Current Ratings! There are 2 limitations for current in a wire. Temperature AND Voltage Drop (IR Drop). Either one can be a limit to current. Smaller wires have more resistance and more drop.
Great video and explanation. I have the Ioniq 5 and it's nice to know that I can get 100 Kwh in an emergency from Tesla, but that it will still be faster and cheaper at an Electrify America at least until more technology becomes available.
You can certainly get more than only 100kWh from Tesla. I guess you meant your vehicle is limited to 100 kilowatt. I certainly do not know why, Tesla chargers are rated for 1000V. At least in Europe. Must be a software limitation.
@@volcalstone In Europe there is no limitation. Its only in the US. If someone could look at the fine print on a charging station? In Europe it ha sto state type, Max Voltage and Max. Ampere. I don‘t know if it has to do the same in the US. I say its a Software limitation and not intentional.
@@volcalstone In europe you can charge your non tesla no issue at your car's limit obviously. It then depends on your car's battery temperature, considering Teslas optimize that automatically when navigating to a superchargers, which is something no other EV does.
@@achilles-liveThats no longer the case. Certainly Porsche has added SuCs to their Nav/Planner in Europe. Once the charging provider is in the Nav and the unit is 50kW+ then the car will preheat just as it does for Ionity etc.
23:40 Don’t worry bro, anyone who watches your videos knows brevity is not your strong suit. If it can be said in 20 words, 100 must be better right? 😂. That said, you know your stuff, and that’s what counts. 👍
Interesting details. Thanks for doing this. I wonder if Tesla is just being conservative now because V3 is their top end to ensure that they don't experience failures by pushing too many limits. And then when the v4 Superchargers they will have the confidence to send as much power as the car can take.
Hummer EV has a stop sale. They have to change all batteries on them. There is an issue with the gasket around the battery pack leaking water. Apparently at least one has already caught fire
Maximum input for supercharger v3 transformers is 387 kVA, shared on 4 stalls (A,B,C and D). Each stall can deliver 250 kW under 0 to 500V, with a current of 631A. Based on a transformer sticker installed in France. That means that power is also shared on v3 superchargers, but this is less noticeable, as it is rare that all 4 terminals require maximum power at the same time.
I think the superchargers are sharing the DC bus between even between transformers, and not only on charging stalls. That mean 2-3 cars can charge at 250 kW on the same transformer, let’s say 1A, B and C, if let’s say the 2A,B,C and D are not occupied.
Now that Tesla is opening up their network can we get the manufacturers to switch their charge ports to NACS and make sure they are at the correct location on the vehicle (that would be on the drivers side in the rear or passenger side in the front, alternatively you could put it in the middle of the rear or front like Aptera does). Why do I want this, we need to save copper and make the charge cables shorter and liquid cooled.
It doesn't split the pack, it doubles the voltage. Instead of 700V it asks the charger for 350V and then the booster doubles the voltage to meet the battery pack requirement. Really not that relevant though, only the old 50kW chargers (though a few deliver up to 75kW or so) are 450V or 500V chargers. Tesla Superchargers are also 1000V here in Europe, and I doubt they make different hardware for USA. All Teslas except very few very early cars that didn't get the CCS upgrade are CCS in Europe. Everything complies with the regular CCS2 standard and no adapter is required, because all Superchargers already have CCS cables and 800V cars can charge at 800V. The only reason I can think of why that would be different in the US is different charger software.
Even with solid-state batteries, charge times might not get down to under thirty minutes on all types of chargers . Reminds me of the different flow rates of fossil fuel pumps . The flow rate of most diesel pumps are much higher than regular gas pumps .
I suppose if they added a longer cable that loops within the center and has a hook to hold it in the middle, Tesla drivers would not need to unravel the extra cord, and if someone is using the CCS and need the extra length, Tesla could have a sensor on the hook to make sure users put it back nicely. I don't think adding one of those retractable pullies would work if the associated metal cable were dragged across a vehicle. Maybe we could all just get manufacturers to place it in the same spot as Tesla as a new standard, not because it would be better for Tesla to not have this added expense, but because it would facilitate better use of raw materials in these cables and thus mean more stations in general. Let's remember, Tesla built their network to be efficient and economical with their resources for a reason. I bet manufacturers would gladly advertise that their charge ports and charging experience like preconditioning are optimized for the nation's largest and most reliable network. That would be a big competitive advantage and good marketing.
I have heard that the reason that most Tesla superchargers didn’t work with CCS cars is not really the plug, it’s the communication language between car and supercharger. The reason that Tesla cars can talk to CCS charging stations with an adapter is because they made the cars bi-lingual. I wonder if these superchargers with magic docks are bilingual or if they has changed the communication to CCS for those stations. It will be interesting to see if they come out with/allow some kind of dongle for cars that can’t reach the cable. It is probably cheaper/ faster to allow people to buy an adapter rather than retrofit all stations.
18:02 non-Teslas can charge more the 150 kw on V3 in Euorpe. Saw some cars at 190kw on V3. Maybe they don't deliver on the US because of the adapter...
Comparing the nacs2ccs with the ccs2nacs adapter there could be a big differences that implies that the nacs2ccs adapter has to be conservative with temperatures, thus the decision from Tesla to cap the current at 350A. The ccs2nacs adapter is simply a geometrical adapter, it converts the ccs plug into a nacs2ccs plug and reroutes the cables, not much in it besides a plastic enclosing with the correct form some signal wires and 2 power cables, this is so because Tesla cars also speak CCS and therefore no electronics are needed to translate communication protocols. On the other side on the nacs2ccs adapter the cars don’t speak the Tesla protocol and V3 shouldn’t speak ccs(at least not the US version). So the question is, is the protocol translator in the adapter, meaning some electronics that have a low thermal envelope, or is Tesla also updating the electronics on the SuC V3, so the adapter is also a passive one? Tesla won’t tell anybody and no one will break one adaptor apart to find out, but this could be the reason why non-Teslas will be restrained to 350A for now.
The nameplate rating for current is really only for continuous load. Some cables already have an additional “boost” rating that can be achieved for a short time. Tesla has a reputation for flying as close to the sun as possible (for better or for worse) and that’s what they’re doing with their superchargers and going well beyond their ratings for a short period. I suspect that Tesla will probably stick to the 350A limit for a while until they can figure out the “boost” limit for their chargers with the CCS adapter, since there are plenty of 400V CCS vehicles that could pull more than 350A (or even 500A) for a long time while charging.
Thank you for taking the time to try and simplify all this. However, if someone very smart like you spends so much time and energy trying to figure this out, how can the rest of us that work at other jobs 40 hours a week and don’t know what the difference between a watt and volt is (and frankly don’t care) figure out how to simply charge up a car and how long to plan for? I see a real problem here.
Your explanation of volts and amps at chargers is not correct. Voltage is pressure. To push amps into a battery you have to have a source voltage higher than the battery. All chargers use dc/dc converters to control the voltage which ultimately controls the amps. If the car is not close to full charge it will just max the voltage and only control the amps via that voltage to what the car wants as max amps. But as it gets to the last 10-15% it will match voltage which will have the side effect of lowering the amps. If it doesn’t the extra pressure will damage the battery. In the case of 800v they’re just asking for max and the. Using an onboard boost converter to then boost the already boosted voltage from the Tesla. It then takes over controlling the amps itself at whatever their booster can handle which is WAY less than those in the PFC at the charger that converts 3 phase ac to dc. The gen 4 must support 1000v because of the cyber truck being 800v which will end this issue. (Expect all Tesla to go to 800v)
typical as soon as I type my question, you sort of answer the question - now I am thinking is the issues of low voltage due to the USA setup (the dongle or Telsa power cord and/or head or the type of CCS they using? or Telsa being *****
They will accommodate other vehicles makes as time goes on. This is essentially a beta program to evaluate known and unknown unknowns regarding parking logistics and vehicle port locations. Ultimately, other manufacturers need to step it up and create their own network instead of leaning on a competitor to provide a solution. I would hope the consumers of these cars will make that well known.
Nothing more fits in the V2/V3 internal loop design. The V4 charger will have an external loop allowing for a longer cable.. What will be interesting is if Tesla eventually replaces some of the V2/V3 stalls with an equivalent V4 stall and longer cable, but still the older electronics.
Shorter cables mean lower cost-not only the conductor, but the whole liquid cooling process for the cable. Superchargers are famously less expensive to install than CCS chargers. Longer cables will mean more cost but will be welcomed when and if made available to us CCSers on the V4 superchargers.
We take it for granted, but amazing how Kyle shoots a video like that in one freaking take without a drop of hesitation. That was crystal clear. Kudos!
Ha. I was thinking the same thing. I was wondering if he had any technical notes or if it was all off the top of the dome.
@@SonaEnergy_CK after watching many OOS videos, I can assure that Kyle is a beast! I sometimes picture him as the calculating Hangover Zach with all this EV stuff flying around!
Better thumbnail in the works - thanks for watching!
Be sure to stand there with your hands in the air like an idiot.
Get some sleep, homes.... you look exhausted, Kyle. Thanks for the in-depth information 🎉
great explanation .. someone should make this into a simplified infographical video for the average joe
Kyle, will you please use a super charger to charge a VW ID4? Please, Thank you.
This charging limitation seems like a good table / Google sheet would help clarify it. List of the cars and their voltages and their internal dc-dc converter limiting factors (in combination with Teslas v3 supercharger limit voltage of course)
Maybe I missed a cut, but your delivery of fairly complicated material for 20 minutes in a single take is amazing! Not gonna shed too many tears for Taycan and Lucid owners getting only 50KW at Superchargers. They'll survive (and drive amazing cars).
Yeah, but then they’re blocking Teslas that can charge at five times that speed.
Thank you! I was watching other videos of people testing out Tesla charging and not knowing why they were charging slow and I didn't know either. I think I learned more in this video than I have all week (which is saying a lot for me :D)!
Excellent explanation. I was not aware there were so many approaches to battery pack arrangement affecting charging. I have an Ioniq 5 and live in North Dakota. Access to the Tesla Superchargers will still be a massive improvement since the most capable chargers are rated at 62 kW here and they may be 200 miles apart. Not sure I can go that far at 80-85 mph. First world problems. Again, thank you.
Have you been to the Tesla chargers in Bismarck? Not sure if they are already upgraded with Magic Dock yet.
@@andrewr3362 According to Tesla, the Bismarck Superchargers have not been upgraded to Magic Docks. I will visit the site to be certain. (Just checked. None of the chargers appear to have Magic Docks.)
Yes, it’s a problem for Teslas. The main thing that will become an issue is that when an EV with a port on the “wrong” side tries to charge, it not only blocks two of our charging spaces, but it doesn’t give an accurate estimate of available charging stalls in our onboard route planner. I will show there are twice as many stalls available. Our cars also automatically adjust charging stops based on the availability of stalls. If these aren’t accurate, it’s a big problem that will result in waits.
I honestly hope they don’t put longer cords. Our short cords are clean, neat, and don’t get run over and damaged like those long cords on other stations (Even Tesla destination cords are never coiled and hung up, and I’ve seen them damaged from being run over). If anything, maybe you guys can carry an extension cord.
@@KatAdair Other than my charging port being on the wrong side, I do not expect to need a longer cable. Depriving Tesla owners of space will not be an issue in my area, either. There are so few EVs that the public chargers, including Tesla's, are seldom used. Maybe someday but not soon here will there be crowds at the chargers. I am haunting the internet hoping that Hyundai will announce an update so that the Ioniq 5 can utilize the Tesla chargers. Their chargers here are the v3 model. Oh, and from what I have read, the v4 chargers have longer cords. It comes down to the cord management system on any charger.
@@leslarson2642 on my road trips between Colorado and Austin, the Tesla superchargers are very much in use, so that’s the basis of my concern. Where I live now, in the mountains in Colorado, we do have two supercharger “stations,” an older 150 kW one with 12 chargers, and a newer 250 kW with 8. I wouldn’t have any problem with opening up the 150 kW to other EVs; it’s also closer to I-70. There is an EA (I believe) at Walmart a few miles away with four chargers, which I’m happy to say has been pretty busy. I charge at home, so it’s not an issue. But if I head down to Denver, the stations I use there are always full with Teslas. If I showed up there to see a non-Tesla taking up two spaces or spending two hours charging, that would be a big issue for the users of that station.
I heard somebody say that Tesla might not open the busier stations to non-Teslas, and that might be a solution for now.
I do want EVs to become prevalent, so I struggle with this. I really want to embrace it. I’m just baffled by how EV companies have botched their rollouts. A good friend has a Mustang Mach-E that she’s afraid to drive because she has no idea how to find charging stations. She’s charging 110v at home.
Volts are a lot more similar to pressure than pipe size. Amps are what goes with size and how bigger pipes / thicker cables allow more flow with lower losses. You need twice as much "pressure" to get power into a 900V pack as you do on a 450V one, kind of like trying to fill a 200psi tank with a 100psi compressor. Not going to work beyond 100psi.
Was just coming in to say exactly this.
You are wicked smart! It's very complicated, and you actually made it understandable. Thanks. And it is no wonder it has taken EVs many, many years to get to where they are - this electrical stuff is complex!
In case you missed it last night, the head of charging said V4 chargers are being installed in Europe now, and the ones coming to US will have longer cables to better accommodate CCS cars. Your dad will be happy!
Looking forward to them upgrading those V2 chargers!
MKBHD, and State of charge will love this
20:44 yea was at end of video
Not a fan of longer cables that people won’t wrap back up and that get damaged by being run over. Plus they’re dirty, and your hands get gross…I have a white interior and would prefer to keep it that way.
@@KatAdair the problem is that shorter cables will be damaged if they are not lengthened at lest 2 more feet specially when the cyber truck will ever come . I know you have a real issue since there’s no place to clean your hand specially since the white interior is a magnet for dirt and grime .
As always I appreciate all that you do for the EV world.
I run a small public 500V DC station in Sweden, here are the limitations for E-GMP and Taycan/E-tron gt at low voltage charger.
E-GPM: 230A @ 455V to ≈ 80% SoC
Taycan: 350A @ 360-396V to ≈ 54% SoC.
In Europe (France in fact), I checked several recent superchargers: they are marked on the inward side for 1000V & 425A. And forgot to check if they indeed output the advertised 250kW but they did provide more than 200kW.
I'll try to have a look at a Supercharger site here in Wavre, Belgium, there are V2's and V3's - I'll comment here right after (might be in a couple of days).
European v3 Supercharger deliver 250kW. Tested several times now with my Model Y LR (also in France 🙂)
I actually think this is GREAT NEWS for all Tesla owners that are worried about Tesla Charging sites getting busy (which I actually think is ridiculous). My belief is that most (well informed) CCS vehicle owners will favor the available CCS charging infrastructure that is available. First, CCS is probably going to be FREE for them given all the (really dumb) programs that give away free KWHs or at a minimum, cheaper that going to a Tesla site, but it now seems like the CCS will be the faster way to charge a vehicle. If I personally owned a CCS vehicle, Tesla would be "break glass in the event of an emergency only" sort of usage situation.
The problem is even if most well informed CCS vehicle owners will favor the available CCS charging infrastructure, they are an ever decreasing minority of CCS vehicle owners. Majority will go wherever it is most convenient. For many that is going to be EA right now because of the free programs, but after those expire for many it may become Superchargers. I don't believe at all that the number of CCS cars which will go to a different station because it is faster will at all offset the added traffic cause by CCS cars charging slower, especially when many of those CCS cars will have to block a second stall to charge due to the cable length.
Just looking at the stations nearest to me, the EA station is farther away and doesn't have many businesses near it that I might want to stop into while charging. There is a pet store, a couple furniture stores, and a pizza place. The supercharger though is closer and has a Starbucks, bakery, pharmacy, gym, and a couple lunch spots in the same parking lot. Even if the Supercharger might be 10 to 15 minutes slower for my car, If I were to use DC fast charging on a regular basis, I might pick the supercharger since I could better make use of my time (and I'm saving almost 10 minutes on driving anyway).
@@OmairArif The lack of basic EV knowledge by some recent EV buyers is concerning. In a group on FB, someone posted a picture of a new F-150 Lightening owner at a Tesla Supercharger expecting to charge their truck. They were told (lied to or the salesperson was equally mis-informed?) that the entire Tesla network was now open. Their next closest CCS station is like another 10-15 miles away or something like that and they were very upset. It is the BUYERS responsibility to know all this, but still.
As an electrical engineer your analogy of pipe sizes representing voltage is bewildering. 'pipe' size is more akin to current. Voltage is like pressure to push the current into the battery.
The Taycan 150kw/400V booster option is like $460. relatively cheap in the Porsche world.
That is likely a fraction of what they charge for a "service"
Well, until this, there really hasn't been much reason for it in the US. And if they start rolling out V4s there may not be a reason for it for too long. We'll just have to see. If I were filling out my order sheet today though I'd probably spec it for that reason.
Actually that's cheap for pretty much any car upgrade (assuming it doesn't require you to add some unrelated package for $1600 first)
I didn't spec it on my Taycan but I think it can be retrofitted now, I could be wrong.
wow that’s cheap! it’s probably more just to have different or no badges in the car.
Thanks for the explanation. I never could make sense of the necessity for the onboard upgrade on the Taycan until now.
Thanks for doing this. The explanations of the communication between car and charger is really helpful to those of us who are a little challenged in their understanding of electrical theory and technology.
Kyle, I always appreciate the nerdy details! 👍🏻
The 150kW DC inverter option on the Taycan was $460 in 2020. I think it’s $550 now. Not that expensive given the price of the car and a worthwhile upgrade if you road-trip imho.
For Porsche option pricing, that is cheap! 😀 I can’t imagine buying a Taycan without it.
It’s still $460 on the 2023 MY cars.
I for one don’t want them opened to other manufacturers. Those dealers should build their own fast reliable charging network.
Awesome detailed Video Kyle 👍🎉 Synchronistically, I was just reading some articles about the first V4 Supercharger, which is supposed to be built in Dateland, AZ ....Just off I-8, on the way to (East of) Yuma, AZ. It's supposed to have a Megapack and a 4500 sqft solar array, with 40 covered stalls, and 350Kw chargers! ...It's only 183 miles West of me, and I pass Dateland every time I drive to San Diego. I'll definitely be taking a ride out there, when they build it....
If the V3 superchargers cannot communicate with non-Tesla vehicles about their thermal state, then I would doubt that Tesla would take on the liability of exceeding the labeled current rating of the connectors.
Agreed. I'm sure the limits are based on liability. Tesla doesnt want to EVGO fry your battery.
Love the nerd out, Tesla may limit the CCS adapter as they are also dealing with the connection between their NACS and the CCS in the same body (cables get hot but plugs/sockets with wear over time gets hotter, two pug/sockets in close proximity may generate too much heat, only time will tell). Current does not flow unless there is a potential difference in voltage. In other words if a battery is at 500v and the charger matches it with 500v no current will flow. If the charger steps to 510v current will flow and if it steps to 520v more current will flow. If the battery exceeds the charger then you have the basis of vehicle to grid. Circuity within the chargers raise the charging voltage to match the current demand from the battery within the charger operating parameters of maximum voltage and current. All charging uses ISO 15118 which includes comms which will limit the charger output and all done by simplistic electronics therefore charger adaptors can be recognised by incorporating the same electronics, I believe its a resister that is the discreet component that sets the upper limit, simple to include an an adaptor.
Tak!
Thanks so much for this detailed maybe too nerdy but very helpful explanation of charging a non-Tesla on a Tesla SC. I just finished Tom Moloughney's video in Brewster NY where he was checking out the Magic Dock on his Lightning and there was an R1T and a Lucid Air as well as 2 Tesla model 3s (I think) and the Lucid owner was only getting 45kW. Your deep dive explains that. Tom's big issue was, as you mention, the cable length. Tesla V4 SCs should be built with the longer cable but the existing V3s also need to get a longer cable with their Magic Dock upgrade. Anyway great video and some interesting questions with the Hummer split pack. Cheers and drive safely.
I have noticed, over my years of driving an ICE Vehicle, that different Branded Gas Pumps, have different length hoses. Only a few people try to stretch the hose across their car, to Refuel! The rest of us just pay attention to which side we fuel on, and park appropriately at the pumps! I suppose it will take some time for this new idea to get worked out, between Drivers seeking to Try the Tesla Experience and their vehicles fit.
@@robertweekley5926 Right! It seems Tesla forgot the old obvious ways. I wish all Tesla stalls were "pull through" like gas pumps. It takes up more room but even a pull in forward and then back out when done model would work better than the current back in style. Imagine a big CyberTruck maneuvering back-and-fill style! They'll likely just drive in from the other side, curbs, trees and parking bumpers beware. Cheers.
Yes, the Tesla network will be an excellent backup for CCS folks. However, in states with a limited charging network...this new capability will be a lifesaver for CCS cars.
Very detailed and simple explanation.
The charger actually controls the voltage and the voltage difference makes the current flow.
The greater the voltage difference the greater the current flow
The common water analogy for electric is height difference for voltage. Flows from high to low
And current flow in pipes. The larger pipe the larger the wire the more amps (water) can flow
Always easier to use extremes to demonstrate
Good explanation.
95% of time I need a reliable 75kw near good food, coffee and toilets. When I get that I have a 30-60 minute break and get all the charge I need for another 3 hours driving, while looking after the battery pack better.
I get some people want more, I just think it’s a little overstated for the average trip.
A bit of a clarification on the charging process Volts and Amps:
Initially the charger will match the pack voltage. But when the charge power ramps up gradually, that is actually done by increasing the voltage a bit further, usually 10-20V depending on the charge power. I confirmed this through CarScanner.
So in order to have current flowing through the pack in the charge direction, the charger has to first match the pack voltage and then add some to have the current flow. The pack itself also has some internal resistance (not sure if it is the same when charging and discharging, but it is there). As P=U*I, but also I=U/R, we get P=U^2/R. The charger will regulate power and current simply by changing the output voltage based on that formula (while in fact it's the car requesting that, charger just complies).
As the pack voltage increases, to keep the same charging power, the charger output will too have to increase to keep the same "overvoltage" over the stationary pack voltage. Of course the pack resistance changes slightly on different SoC%, which also needs to be compensated for. When decreasing power, it would just get closer to the pack voltage, but keep above it unless ramping down to zero.
It has another aspect to it: P=U^2/R works for the total charging power when you look at the total voltage. But it also denotes the heat losses in the battery when you plug in only the "overvoltage", so P_heat=(U_charge - U_pack)^2/R. It works out to few hundred watts of battery heating losses at ~85kW in my e-208, which seems about right given how much the pack warms up.
The best way to view voltage is relating it to pressure. Amps would be flow rate. That allows you to view power like water flowing in a pipe.
The voltage would be the size (diameter) of the pipe, amps would be the rate of flow, power is the volume delivered per unit of time.
Is Ohm’s Law taught in school these days? It’s not really rocket science.
Indeed the diameter size of the pipe is the flow and current, hence conductors need to be thicker. Voltage is the pressure meaning how strong the pipe wall is (ie thick insulation in electrical.)
@@travellover3373
Voltage is NOT relatable to the diameter of the pipe. Voltage is pressure. A current flow requires a difference of electrical potential ( voltage difference). Fluid flow requires a pressure differential.
I can have 1000 volts or a 1000 psi through a small or large "tube". The size of the tube relates to the resistance, and governs the flow in relation to the electrical or pressure differential
@@damp_squid Voltage is not pressure. Voltage is electromotive force way different than pressure. A 100 psi pressure in a 1-inch diameter water pipe will not give you the same cfm as a 100 psi pressure in a 2-inch diameter pipe.
Excellent -- comprehensive and comprehensible -- thank you!
Great explanation on it. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
If I had a wager, I'd bet the hummer EV gets about 120kW max. 350V @ 350A. My understanding is the series conversion happens on charging plugin during CCS negotiation. If the charger doesn't offer 800V, it won't put the batts in series. No DC step up/down necessary. But I don't know and I'd love to find out.
I get that people like to logic their own way through physics but the “pipe size” to represent voltage is a horrible analogy.
If your going to simplify it down please use pressure = voltage, flow rate = current, and pipe size = resistance. There are still flaws with this analogy but it works rather than whatever was expressed above.
Wonder how they will charge cyber truck
Best explanation of a difficult issue. Thanks, I will need to watch again...
Glad I had my dad select the 150kW 400v option on his Taycan. You mentioned in the video it's a $1200-1500 option, but at least here in Canada it was only $520 (I wonder if you were thinking of the cost for the 19.2kW AC charging option which is more expensive)
Nobody explains the nerdy stuff as well as Kyle. I look forward to each new video.
What a superb explanation Kyle. Hi from Europe 👋👍👍
Always enjoy it Kyle 🤓
Thanks for nerding out out with us today! Love this stuff.
Thanks for a super clear explanation!
Perfect explanation! Thanks, Kyle!!
Thanks for nerding out out with us today! 😄
I'm going to take a ioniq 5 to the Brewster ny charger tomorrow. I'll tell you how it goes might make a video about it too
Excellent Explanation! But in Europe we don’t need adapters therefore no artificial de-rating or throttling needed
Those plates should have a UL stamp on it. Tesla would have to have their equipment retested by Underwriter's Laboratories, to have the ratings on the plates changed.
One thought I keep having is I understand Tesla's network is mean't to be more of a "backup" for the cars that can't take full advantage of the charging speeds, however, will some people simply choose to use Tesla's network for reliability/consistency? Say someone with an E-GMP (without free EA charging) car has an option of an EA station with 4 stalls (2x 350's and 2x 150's) and a Tesla supercharger with 6+ stalls. Would you rather get ≈ 100kW quick, easy, and guaranteed OR take your chance at EA with faster speeds but maybe 50% of stations offline, a clunky handshake process that takes greater than a minute to activate, the possibility of only get marginally better speeds because both 350's are taken, etc etc. It will be interesting to see as time goes by what people choose to use and if the CCS stations can become more efficient and reliable. Cable-gate is an issue for the time being for sure.
Remember also that Teslas optimize battery temperature when navigating to a supercharger, this does not happen in other EVs. This can also be a limiting factor for other EVs, since the supercharger is extremely careful about battery temperature safety.
@@achilles-live Doesn't happen for other EV's going to Tesla Superchargers? In the E-GMP vehicles you can trick the system by inputting a different, nearby DCFC and still get all the benefits. In other EV's it might be more difficult or not possible I am not sure.
@@CarsMadeSimple It does not, that's the issue. I know some EVs can preheat manually, but that's about it for automatic routing. Otherwise, they only preheat to some specific chargers. Some EVs can't preheat, such as the VW iD series, that have no heatpump anymore.
Great vid! I definitely understand it all a bit better now.
Kyle, for those of us who are also Tesla owners and are really concerned that this will cause problems with wait times and vehicles taking up two stalls to charge…what can you say to reassure us that this was a good decision on Tesla’s part? I see some people excited, but I’m not feeling it.
I don’t want to see longer charging cords because the Destination Chargers are always not coiled back up and sometimes damaged because they are run over, and I can only imagine the same if our beloved Superchargers had longer cords. I’m also VERY concerned about the two-stall issue…it seems like the onboard route planner will not be able to accurately gauge the number of available stalls if most of the non-Tesla vehicles take up two spaces. Just looking for a ray of sunshine…as a diehard Tesla fan, I don’t want to share, but I also want our country to wean itself off fossil fuels. But the minute I have to wait 30 minutes or more to charge because of a non-Tesla taking up two spaces and charging at a fifth of the speed I’m accustomed to, I’m not going to be happy about it!
What do you think about a Ford Lightning on the Tesla network?
Great explanation Kyle. My background has me understanding the charger side but now I understand a lot more of the vehicle side.
Best technical source on the system, nerds rule.
Thanks Kyle. As an EE, I love these nerdy details far more than the average EV driver. I believe Tesla is playing it very safe for now using the test of time approach. We may see more charging power months down the road.
Remember, the primary reason they are doing it is to capture charger funds from the Biden Admin. It will also generate some additional profit. Grants will not be tied to how many amps are pumped into a Hummer or Lightning.
Actually, the grants do require a minimum of 150 KW. It’s debatable whether these upgraded V3 shared units actually qualify. I hope so. In any case V4 superchargers should be fine.
What should the charging etiquette be between tesla-nontesla charging stalls given the need to block a second stall when a nontesla port is on the opposite side of vehicle?
The etiquette should by "go somewhere else!" ;) Same as vehicles that can't charge fast enough. Both will block more cars, faster charging cars.
Tesla needed the "public network" title to fund expansion through government money. They will develop more "friendly" architecture. While some Tesla elements lack, charging is not one of them. Their product and field teams are the absolute best, no competition, hands down.
Liquid cooling can’t get to the pins on the far side (relative to the charge post) of the adapter.
Increasing amperage is actually done by increasing the voltage. The volts don't always match or stay the same.
The analogy I usually use is Amps = Pipe size, Voltage = Water pressure.
The average user isn't going to care. All day in some areas I see supercharger stations full during peak times at 55 cents per kwh. Most don't care what they are paying and probably won't care about how long they sit their either. But at any rate, there should be a time limitation charging to keep station spots available.
I think the actual way it works is easier to understand.
The charger has to output a higher voltage than your battery pack, and it regulates current (Amps) by raising and lowering the charger voltage. The amount of voltage (potential) difference between the battery pack and charger is directly proportional. Large difference, fast charge rate. Little difference, slow charge rate. The voltage of a fully charged Model S battery pack is ~400 Volts, and a fully discharged one is ~292 Volts.
For Li-on batteries charging profile is constant current up to the max cell voltage eg 4.2V per cell ( actually any voltage below 4.2V will have the same effect) once that terminal voltage has been reached the charging profile changes to constant voltage and it is the current that starts to reduce to the point at which the battery is considered full when the current drops to around 1% of capacity (if i remember correctly). Once charge starts if the charger voltage can be set to 1000v this will have no affect because the internal resistance of the battery alone with the set current will pull the charger voltage down to the pack voltage. while in constant current mode the voltage is in affect floating and just rises up as the charge state increases in the battery. this is how the BMS works.
State of Charge just posted a video that includes a chat with a Lucid owner who charged at about 45kW at the Brewster NT Supercharger location. This confirms what you are saying.
Tom also said Elon doesn’t like the Lucid CEO so he slows their charge down on purpose. 😂
@@73av8r5 Right - Out of Spec Reviews has discussed this, and it probably has to do with the way they have to charge their ~800V packs. Other brands do this differently and have different charging rates.
His videos work great at 2x speed
Thanks, very informative and also a bit confusing as lots of technical details. I saw a Marques Brownlee (Auto Focus) video from his experience with his Rivian in NY state at a new Tesla Magic Dock location. Really simple and laid out the current issues with the system both the pros and some of the negatives such as port on side/front of the car, etc. Overall, a good start as I sold my Telsa after 3 years and looking forward to a new and more interesting EV, and now with the potential for all the supercharger network stations opening up, this will seal the deal on placing an order.
An idea I have for a video, that no one may even want to watch, is a road trip test between a Chevy Bolt and a Hyundai Ionic 5. I know the Bolt charges slower but what effect would it have during a normal drive, stopping to charge during lunch and bathroom breaks.
Great explanation!
I’m more worried about charge port locations on vehicles and cord lengths. If a Rivian for example, plugs into a supercharger, technically they are now blocking 2 spots because of where their port is. At busy superchargers, this will SUCK! Long cables could solve this? Maybe V4?
Current Ratings!
There are 2 limitations for current in a wire. Temperature AND Voltage Drop (IR Drop). Either one can be a limit to current. Smaller wires have more resistance and more drop.
Great video and explanation. I have the Ioniq 5 and it's nice to know that I can get 100 Kwh in an emergency from Tesla, but that it will still be faster and cheaper at an Electrify America at least until more technology becomes available.
You can certainly get more than only 100kWh from Tesla. I guess you meant your vehicle is limited to 100 kilowatt. I certainly do not know why, Tesla chargers are rated for 1000V. At least in Europe. Must be a software limitation.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 more like a brand limitation if we're being honesty here. I'm sure Telsa is holding back for anything non-telsa.
@@volcalstone In Europe there is no limitation. Its only in the US. If someone could look at the fine print on a charging station? In Europe it ha sto state type, Max Voltage and Max. Ampere. I don‘t know if it has to do the same in the US. I say its a Software limitation and not intentional.
@@volcalstone In europe you can charge your non tesla no issue at your car's limit obviously. It then depends on your car's battery temperature, considering Teslas optimize that automatically when navigating to a superchargers, which is something no other EV does.
@@achilles-liveThats no longer the case. Certainly Porsche has added SuCs to their Nav/Planner in Europe. Once the charging provider is in the Nav and the unit is 50kW+ then the car will preheat just as it does for Ionity etc.
House painting party at Kyle's house! Bring a can of your favorite color and pick a wall.
23:40 Don’t worry bro, anyone who watches your videos knows brevity is not your strong suit. If it can be said in 20 words, 100 must be better right? 😂. That said, you know your stuff, and that’s what counts. 👍
Kyle, we need a business card with a QR code that liks to a lineup of your videos we could leave on cars to help explain charging and etiquette.
The onboard 150 kW converter on my Taycan was a $460 option. I’m not sure if the price depends on the having the performance battery plus, though.
Interesting details. Thanks for doing this. I wonder if Tesla is just being conservative now because V3 is their top end to ensure that they don't experience failures by pushing too many limits. And then when the v4 Superchargers they will have the confidence to send as much power as the car can take.
Another well researched helpful review! Thx Kyle.
Amazing explanation
Hummer EV has a stop sale. They have to change all batteries on them. There is an issue with the gasket around the battery pack leaking water. Apparently at least one has already caught fire
Maximum input for supercharger v3 transformers is 387 kVA, shared on 4 stalls (A,B,C and D). Each stall can deliver 250 kW under 0 to 500V, with a current of 631A. Based on a transformer sticker installed in France. That means that power is also shared on v3 superchargers, but this is less noticeable, as it is rare that all 4 terminals require maximum power at the same time.
I think the superchargers are sharing the DC bus between even between transformers, and not only on charging stalls. That mean 2-3 cars can charge at 250 kW on the same transformer, let’s say 1A, B and C, if let’s say the 2A,B,C and D are not occupied.
Very helpful thank you!
Wow, that was really educational, thank you.
Hey Kyle--the 400V charger option for the Taycan is $460.
Now that Tesla is opening up their network can we get the manufacturers to switch their charge ports to NACS and make sure they are at the correct location on the vehicle (that would be on the drivers side in the rear or passenger side in the front, alternatively you could put it in the middle of the rear or front like Aptera does). Why do I want this, we need to save copper and make the charge cables shorter and liquid cooled.
No, what the Taycan is doing is *not* splitting the pack. If it did that it wouldn't need a voltage booster, and wouldn't be limited to 50/150kW.
It doesn't split the pack, it doubles the voltage. Instead of 700V it asks the charger for 350V and then the booster doubles the voltage to meet the battery pack requirement. Really not that relevant though, only the old 50kW chargers (though a few deliver up to 75kW or so) are 450V or 500V chargers. Tesla Superchargers are also 1000V here in Europe, and I doubt they make different hardware for USA. All Teslas except very few very early cars that didn't get the CCS upgrade are CCS in Europe. Everything complies with the regular CCS2 standard and no adapter is required, because all Superchargers already have CCS cables and 800V cars can charge at 800V. The only reason I can think of why that would be different in the US is different charger software.
Fantastic discussion, Kyle.
A very informative video
Even with solid-state batteries, charge times might not get down to under thirty minutes on all types of chargers .
Reminds me of the different flow rates of fossil fuel pumps .
The flow rate of most diesel pumps are much higher than regular gas pumps .
Trimmed up the beard! Looking good brother!
I suppose if they added a longer cable that loops within the center and has a hook to hold it in the middle, Tesla drivers would not need to unravel the extra cord, and if someone is using the CCS and need the extra length, Tesla could have a sensor on the hook to make sure users put it back nicely. I don't think adding one of those retractable pullies would work if the associated metal cable were dragged across a vehicle. Maybe we could all just get manufacturers to place it in the same spot as Tesla as a new standard, not because it would be better for Tesla to not have this added expense, but because it would facilitate better use of raw materials in these cables and thus mean more stations in general. Let's remember, Tesla built their network to be efficient and economical with their resources for a reason. I bet manufacturers would gladly advertise that their charge ports and charging experience like preconditioning are optimized for the nation's largest and most reliable network. That would be a big competitive advantage and good marketing.
I have heard that the reason that most Tesla superchargers didn’t work with CCS cars is not really the plug, it’s the communication language between car and supercharger. The reason that Tesla cars can talk to CCS charging stations with an adapter is because they made the cars bi-lingual. I wonder if these superchargers with magic docks are bilingual or if they has changed the communication to CCS for those stations. It will be interesting to see if they come out with/allow some kind of dongle for cars that can’t reach the cable. It is probably cheaper/ faster to allow people to buy an adapter rather than retrofit all stations.
In theory the Kia and Hyundai could max out the 175kW by adjusting to 500V in their variable converter.
18:02 non-Teslas can charge more the 150 kw on V3 in Euorpe. Saw some cars at 190kw on V3.
Maybe they don't deliver on the US because of the adapter...
I say its the software. Not the hardware. But its only a guess of course.
Correct, in EU they cab do that because it is CCS plug and CCS socket. No adapter inbetween.
Comparing the nacs2ccs with the ccs2nacs adapter there could be a big differences that implies that the nacs2ccs adapter has to be conservative with temperatures, thus the decision from Tesla to cap the current at 350A.
The ccs2nacs adapter is simply a geometrical adapter, it converts the ccs plug into a nacs2ccs plug and reroutes the cables, not much in it besides a plastic enclosing with the correct form some signal wires and 2 power cables, this is so because Tesla cars also speak CCS and therefore no electronics are needed to translate communication protocols. On the other side on the nacs2ccs adapter the cars don’t speak the Tesla protocol and V3 shouldn’t speak ccs(at least not the US version). So the question is, is the protocol translator in the adapter, meaning some electronics that have a low thermal envelope, or is Tesla also updating the electronics on the SuC V3, so the adapter is also a passive one?
Tesla won’t tell anybody and no one will break one adaptor apart to find out, but this could be the reason why non-Teslas will be restrained to 350A for now.
Nice! Thank you.
Unfortunately, I think Tesla has to worry about potential bad press, should a competitor's car self ignite while charging.
The nameplate rating for current is really only for continuous load. Some cables already have an additional “boost” rating that can be achieved for a short time. Tesla has a reputation for flying as close to the sun as possible (for better or for worse) and that’s what they’re doing with their superchargers and going well beyond their ratings for a short period. I suspect that Tesla will probably stick to the 350A limit for a while until they can figure out the “boost” limit for their chargers with the CCS adapter, since there are plenty of 400V CCS vehicles that could pull more than 350A (or even 500A) for a long time while charging.
Thank you for taking the time to try and simplify all this. However, if someone very smart like you spends so much time and energy trying to figure this out, how can the rest of us that work at other jobs 40 hours a week and don’t know what the difference between a watt and volt is (and frankly don’t care) figure out how to simply charge up a car and how long to plan for? I see a real problem here.
Your explanation of volts and amps at chargers is not correct.
Voltage is pressure. To push amps into a battery you have to have a source voltage higher than the battery. All chargers use dc/dc converters to control the voltage which ultimately controls the amps. If the car is not close to full charge it will just max the voltage and only control the amps via that voltage to what the car wants as max amps. But as it gets to the last 10-15% it will match voltage which will have the side effect of lowering the amps. If it doesn’t the extra pressure will damage the battery.
In the case of 800v they’re just asking for max and the. Using an onboard boost converter to then boost the already boosted voltage from the Tesla. It then takes over controlling the amps itself at whatever their booster can handle which is WAY less than those in the PFC at the charger that converts 3 phase ac to dc.
The gen 4 must support 1000v because of the cyber truck being 800v which will end this issue. (Expect all Tesla to go to 800v)
So a Bolt will charge at the same rate as a Taycan on the magic dock? 😲
have you looked at this in Europe?
typical as soon as I type my question, you sort of answer the question - now I am thinking is the issues of low voltage due to the USA setup (the dongle or Telsa power cord and/or head or the type of CCS they using? or Telsa being *****
The cable length on the magic dock has me scratching my head.
They will accommodate other vehicles makes as time goes on. This is essentially a beta program to evaluate known and unknown unknowns regarding parking logistics and vehicle port locations. Ultimately, other manufacturers need to step it up and create their own network instead of leaning on a competitor to provide a solution. I would hope the consumers of these cars will make that well known.
Nothing more fits in the V2/V3 internal loop design.
The V4 charger will have an external loop allowing for a longer cable..
What will be interesting is if Tesla eventually replaces some of the V2/V3 stalls with an equivalent V4 stall and longer cable, but still the older electronics.
Nothing wrong with the cable length, the problem is the stupid location of the charging port on some vehicles (Taycan, eTron, F150 lighting.....)
Shorter cables mean lower cost-not only the conductor, but the whole liquid cooling process for the cable. Superchargers are famously less expensive to install than CCS chargers. Longer cables will mean more cost but will be welcomed when and if made available to us CCSers on the V4 superchargers.