CCS Charging is DEAD, Here's Why
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2023
- Tesla NACS - Buying a Tesla? twobit.link/Tesla
Tesla's recent news with Ford and GM about adopting the NACS charge standard and allowing ford and GM customers to use the Tesla Supercharger network, is really really big news. The dominions have fallen, and we may FINALLY see standardization on charging, and trust me, this matters a whole lot more than you might be thinking!
Let's talking about it! The Future of Electric Cars Just Changed FOREVER, Here's Why
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#Riviannacs #nacs #tesla #ford #gm #fordnacs #chargingport #chargingsolution #chargers #electricvehicles #evs 
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Buying a Tesla? geni.us/GoTesla
why do you refuse to shave ?
Nope. Not interested in Tesla. Perhaps someday when they start making full size pickups. Seriously, I want a Diesel Electric Hybrid and put the motors in the wheels like LeTourneau was doing in the 60s.
I could sell my Tesla stock to buy one but then if I wait a year, I might be able to buy 2 with Tesla stock 🤪
@@Sjrick He shaves far more than I do. lol
Why do you shave every day when most people do not? Only a weirdo actually cries about someone else's facial hair.
The type2 connector used in Europe doesn't have that external latch that can break off, our type2 has the same kind of latch that the NACS connector has. Also, in non-trivial amount of countries in the rest of the world we have 3-phase power, not split-phase as in US, so since NACS only has two leads for power it wouldn't work here. I do agree that from a usability POV NACS is better, and if Tesla had included a third power connector in it then it could have worked here.
Tesla model S/X sold here have a type2 connector that was special, and could do both AC and DC charging. It would have been excellent if this would have become the standard here instead of CCS.
Tesla actually stopped using the type 2 connector for dc fast charging on s/x about a year ago. Also, from what I can gather, that connector is capable of delivering up to 150kw in comparison to 250kw that teslas are doing right now. And while it is nice to have 3 phase charging, for overnight charging, the 3 phase does not give any noticable benefit, as for most cases, the car will replenish the charge used daily any way.
All correct, Mikael. I totally agree. NACS is an improvement in North America. NACS was proprietary but better than the US standards J1772 / TYpe1 and CCS1.
Here in Europe Tesla never used anything proprietary. Type2 AC charging is great - it works with all charging station. Mine even does 3 phase 22 kW charging. Great in cities with 3 hour time limit at public chargers. CCS2 is and will remain EU Standard and is more powerful (1000 Volt 625 Amps) than Model S/X Type2 DC charging was (400-some Volt 325 Amps).
11kW gives meaningful addition to range even when stopped for 2-3 hours somewhere. Doesn't need overnight charging. Good for destination charging.
I also want to charge when electricity is cheap, and when returning from trip it still takes 7 hrs from empty to full.
And yes, they made the new S/X redesign with CCS2 which was a welcome change considering all the older S/X needed an adapter for CCS2 charging.
@@swmikelet's not forget that the European combo plug doesn't have to be very big or heavy. Teslas V3 Supercharger implementation of the plug shows that it can be both light and easy to handle. On three phase, I agree. I have it at home (230V delta) and it allows me to recharge my car in a few hours when needed.
3 phase power is a red herring, not an issue. Home and SuperChargers can themselves take advantage of the 3 phases if they're available and still supply single phase or DC power as is appropriate.
The CCS plug is an unforgivably bad design especially given that Tesla's plug was available for the world to inspect. Committees & camels!
UK/EU already settled on Type 2 CCS for fast charging as a standard, Teslas even come with CCS ports, and Tesla Superchargers have CCS connectors.
Too bad your government doesn't let the consumer decide
Sorry to hear that. CCS is just clunky.
@@SeattlePaulie yeah well they already love big clunky plugs lol
@@SeattlePaulieIt's completely fine and can be very compact, like on the Tesla superchargers. For home charging you just use the type 2 part which is small.
@@jaedogg7836 You don't have 3 phase charing in the UK?
Being allowed to use the Tesla network is a bigger deal than the actual charging connector. The equipment the connector is attached to is what's important.
The most abundant and reliable network in the United States.
Part of what makes CCS charging unreliable is the heavy cable and poor connector. The weight can tug down and cause the communication pins to separate. I have seen posts where EA support has told people to try holding the cable up when starting a charge session and let go after it starts as a way to get around charge sessions that fail to start. This is an inherent design flaw that can only really be solved by redesigning the CCS connector. Europe got lucky with mennekes type 2 which has a different location on the control pins and thicker pins which helps prevent the sagging the US version has.
It’s a combination of both
I think this might actually be a bad idea of Tesla, as Tesla still has issued with build quality, if they keep that up and people see them as such their image will be hurt and competitors will take over more market share.
@@autohmae market share changes continuously, that's just a feature of capitalism, as long as Tesla can maintain _enough_ share to keep their chargers maintained it really doesn't matter to you & me.
In Finland, and some of other European countries, many single family houses have electricity as AC 3 phase 230V 25A. It is really convenient to home charge with 3 phase 230V 16A, 11kW. I really do not see how NACS can connect 3 phase electricity with 2 power pins. Type 2 uses 5 pins, earth, neutral and one for each phase. And if you have better electricity connection and car supports, you can get AC 3 phase 230V 32A 22kW home charging (including Tesla home charger) But generally 11kW is easiest to implement and widely supported.
One phase charging is usually only up to 16A 230V, about 3.7kW. Because of Type 2 is only sane connector here, almost all charging stations are 3 phase and there is no price benefit for having 1 phase charging.
To avoid overloading/blackouts 3 phase is much easier to arrange as most high electricity using devices like stoves in kitchen and sauna use 3 phase too.
In the uk we have single phase at 32amps on our home chargers through type 2 (so 7kw)
In the US it is primarily 2 phase, a standard established long ago when technology was more primitive. It was never changed to 3 phase, should have but that would have created complications.
Not that this would be a very good solution, but if the 3-phase rectifier bridge were moved into the EVSE, then you could present the three-phase juicy goodness through NACS' two pins as an unfiltered, ripple-y quasi DC voltage. There'd be _some_ extra dissipation in the EVSE from the high-current rectifier, but I'd expect it to be tolerable, and the rectifiers don't cost all that much..
@@Chainyanker007The US does not use 2-phase power. The distribution grid itself have high voltage DC like most contries since there are less loss over distance with DC power. Then there are transformation stations near residental areas or several here and there in cities. Low population density areas can have a transformation station and then have a local AC grid as well. In the US those convert the DC power into a 3-phase 480V power so the US already have 3-phase power that goes around to give power to homes. if you look at power lines that goes around residental areas or between properties they usually have 3 or 4 lines for 3-phases and a neutral in the case of the 4 lines poles. They however split of and just one phase goes into each home to balance the grid and not to overpower one phase more then the others. That single phase is acctually 240V but the coils that takes the power into homes are split into two so they are 2 split phase 120V connections. Technological Connection made a video about the split phase thing a while back and that's where I got that info from. So the US have 3-phase though since it's up to the power companies to supply homes with the power they are cheaping out and jsut giving you one phase each instead of the 3/phase that is more common in Europe. Commercial buildings does however have the full 480V 3-phase power since the corporate structure in the states make it so that they can charge so much extra for it instead.
@@DragonitedItaly is set up the same way, albeit 110V 50Hz (mostly for lighting), though 220V is ubiquitous for other appliances as well.
I am happy with my Tesla in Europe having the standardized CCS2, everywhere you use the same plug. And when it's cold the connector just comes on the exact correct angle. No issues here.
Perhaps the Tesla US cable is even easier, but since we have so many chargers already, stick to the good working standard.
And CCS2 has support for 3 phase power... Something important in EU
And Tesla’s connector can’t do 3 phase power which type 2 ac connector can.
CCS in Europe is better than NCAS the lock he talks about is the same on type 2 as ncas, yes dc and ac are through the same pins, but on the DC chargers it’s not that much of an inconvenient
CCS2 also supports 1000V charging and liquid cooling of the actual plug. The Tesla plug is too narrow to support liquid cooling.
You're asking to stick with what you know, not something that is good. The fact is that CCS in any flavor is too big and cumbersome. Your being accustomed to it and unaware of a much easier to use, better alternative doesn't change that fact.
@@spoenk7448 There's a huge difference between "fairly easily usable" and easily usable. CCS is just too large, especially in cold weather, and for anyone smaller than average.
Charging with 3 phase isn't getting you a faster charge, so that's a red herring.
Something else to consider is accessibility for disabled people.
It might just be a coincidence, but before Ford made their announcement there was an episode of Nova called Chasing Carbon Zero.
As part of it their reporter, who had a prosthetic arm, took a road trip in a Rivian. Aside from trouble getting charging started, he also had difficulty plugging in the CCS1 connector.
I can't help but think that someone on Ford's legal and/or regulatory compliance teams saw that and had serious doubts that CCS1 is kosher with the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1991.
Not a good look for a standard that was finalized 20 years after the ADA was signed into law.
As you, and others, have pointed out the NACS plug can be easily inserted one handed. Food for thought.
Thanks for your input friend.😅
So I used to sell commercial EV chargers and I did research on ADA compliance in 2021. At the time (and probably still) there was no standard for the cords, just a standard for accessibility around the EVSE unit itself, which they just copied from the same standard for parking kiosks. Doing further research I found articles from advocacy groups discussing accessibility and there are major issues around the cords. Standard Tesla stations are too hard to access in wheelchairs if there are other cars parked next to you (the extremely rare Tesla EVSE placed for people pulling trailers does work), stations with long, non-retractable cords are difficult for wheel chair users to navigate, CCS cords are heavy and awkward, Tesla 250kW cords are also too heavy, but the plugs are easier to use.
The best option seemed to be a retractable overhead cord. Control Module Inc. makes "3722 EVSE Garage Overhead Charger", which is a good option, but does not come in DCFC yet.
Overall I was very surprised that there isn't a standard yet. Advocates were very clear that if you have any mobility issues and particularly if you have a wheelchair, you just can't buy an EV right now because you can't trust that you'll find enough accessible stations.
@@patrickcorcoran4828 - Some of the newer Tesla stations have one or more disabled parking stalls that are wider and can accommodate a wheelchair. They are signed with a Disable parking sign
@@Chainyanker007 That's great to hear!
The lack of ADA compliance with ccs combo has always been obvious. It is cool to have a source to point to. The amount of stupid people who attack anyone pointing out the ada deficiencies in ccs combo is mind boggling. A real sane person wants the easiest connector, which is NACS. It is crazy how many people argue against their own needs to appease god knows who. Not a single person defending ccs combo has a clue who actually benefits from the connector(but it obviously is not the consumer). From a consumer perspective, ccs combo was designed to sabotage electric cars by being so terrible.
Ricky, you need to research the J-1772 charging system a little more. When you push the button for release the hook at the end stops a switch from being in engaged and thus the charging stops. If the hook at the end gets broken the charging system will not work. So, there is NO chance of 400v arcing. It also is real easy to use and has no alignment problems. My Zero motorcycle uses the J-1772 and the handle is flexible and easy to use. Please look into the J-1772. I do agree that the Tesla standard will be good if used across the board but until that day comes I will use an adapter from Tesla to my J-1772 when needed or use the Chargepoint charging system. Thanks for all your good videos and please look into how the J-1772 works.
If the hook at the end breaks, then you can pull the J1772 plug out without pressing the button that changes the proximity signal.
However, the pins are shielded from arcing, and the proximity and control pilot pins are shorter than the AC pins and the communication will drop and charging will stop before the AC pins pull free. So you're wrong but you're still right. Also, I've been riding Zeros since 2014, on my third one.
Indeed, I noticed quit poor research on this. It's a lot of engineering in that ccs connecter
I've never had a problem aligning my J-1772 connector up. Can easily do it with one hand.
@@GregHassler I think his point was that the charging wouldn't have started in the first place
Personally I think that having two types of connector isn't that much of a problem as CCS is much more spread here in Europe, what charger manufacturers must address is the idiotic need for thousands of different apps to pay, to locate(must be in the car navigation) and validate the charger, it must change to Visa/Mastercard contactless to pay and begin the charging session. Maybe as you said, the Tesla one is superior but there are other problems that need to be addressed immediately before the plug itself.
The European CCS is not the same as CCS in North America. CCS2 used in Europe is far better than CCS1 in use here in North America. Also, the EU basically mandated a standardization on CCS2 in Europe, so you guys already have 'the standard'.
Everyone is hating on the combo plug these days, but nobody's mentioning Teslas elegant take on it in Europe. It's not that big or heavy on Supercharger V3.
Agree 100%
It's not like we haven't had a method to pay for fuel for 100 years that has worked just fine. The separate app things is so dumb...unless you are a company that wants to mine data from your cell phone.
All chargers need credit/debit card contactless payment. I would hate to have the VIN or any other (personal) data held by a charger company. We pay for almost everything contactless, including petrol (aka "gas"), same should hold for EV charging.
I’ll agree 100 %. The past 10 years I was driving Chevy Volts. 2014, 2017 and 2019 w J1772. For the last year been driving my
Tesla M3 LR and love the Tesla plug. I even sold my Charge Point Charger w J1772, and purchased the Tesla Wall connector.
There is as much chance of Europe changing to NACS as North America changing to 3 phase 240 V for mains electricity.
US does have 3 phase 240V. We just split it in half for most small appliances.
@@jamesengland7461 he meant each phase carrying 240v with 415v between phases
Nope you don't you have split phase 240v. The rest of the world is on 3 phase with 400v between pases and can be found in most homes except for UK where they for some reason normaly just does one of the phaes to a private house. I for example have a 22kw ac charger at home.
The tesla plug is just crap since it can't even do 3 phase + quite a big secuirty risk when you do both ac and dc on the same cable, I have to wonder if te even has ben tested what will happen if thers a fault.
@@Iceeeen will, since Tesla is repeatedly demonstrated to be the most reliable charging network by a long shot, I'd say it's not a problem.
@@jamesengland7461 You realy don't get it do you? A standard househould in the rest of the world with CCS2 3 phase can charge up a big 60kwh battery pack in under 6 hour, even a house with just 16A main fuses and some DLM mangement would have no problem. The same pack in a standard NA househould would take double the time or even 24h or more if you are down on a 110v outlet.
What problem is there with any other chargers? I havent had any yet. The brands I tested are Kempower, Abb, Tritium on the DC. Everyone of them worked direktly, not come to a single station that's been down yet even a -30C. The only thing with Tesla network atleast here is they are by far the most expensive to use the times I checked so avoid them.
But, I raerly use any DC due to AC chariging at 11kw is mostly in my case more than enough in my line of work. And if you are an office worker and charger at work even the big battery 70-80kwh cars will be fullly charged after 8hours
The most anyoing thing is the stupid aps you need for everything today, whats wrong with say a QR code or pay with card like everything else
Not to mention that standardization is what made gas vehicles possible.
Early gas cars had all sorts of issues with regards to finding fuel, and you had to bring your own gas can with you and go to a general store and hope that they had some gasoline available. Over time, the gas infrastructure standardized. We now have two different standards for petroleum vehicles, gasoline and diesel. And with those, there is basically one kind of inlet and one kind of pump for each.
Not to mention all the other standards that we’ve had four vehicles along the way. Some standards are broader, for instance, wheels and tires, there are standards, but they are many and varied. Headlights used to be completely standard for a while, but now that has changed.
The bottom line, though, I agree, electric charging needs to be standardized in some way
As long as you keep that connecter on your side of the pond ;)
I would be quite unhappy to give up on my 3 phase, 240v/16A charging at home, for a slightly smaller plug.
That's unrelated to the connector, and 240V is not 3 phase, in EU its 400V.
@@freeculture depends where you stick your meter
Yeah, that is what the dumb US said about SAE. Both are moronic !!
@@freecultureOur grid has ~240V between a phase and Neutral, and ~400 between phases.
240V * 16 Amps = 3840 Watt.
3840 Watt * 3 phases = 11.520 Watt, which translates to around 11 kW charging.
Therefore the plug needs 4 conductors, 5 if you count the ground conductor.
So, one for each of the 3 phases and one for neutral, which the CCS Type 2 plug luckily has.
Europe established the CCS2 as a standard years ago and It works very well
The standard of USB is another EU rule, and Apple will have to change the lightning port soon
In Eu we have to have standards because we are a lot of countries and we have to work together
Greetings to all!👍🏻
It's huge. It was hilarious to watch Mary Barra cringe while surrendering to Tesla's charger.
she led, she really did :)
It was hilarious!
Tesla Killer joining the Tesla way, lol. Beyond funny.
@@Chainyanker007 the way you put it killed me ☠️😭
You have to give her props for doing the right thing. She could have easily dug her heals in with CCS v1. The bottom line is that _all_ the CCS v1 networks suck and the connector is problematic - especially for those with accessibility issues. You are free to debate Tesla on cars, but what they do right is the charging network - no one is even close in the US.
Las Vegas is exploding with huge clusters of Tesla Superchargers all over the city! I’m talking about 24 to 48 charging spots in one location! Bring on Ford and GM!
Don't look now but tesla has a 164 pile ALL v3 megacharging station about to open out in so cal.
I'd love to see the daily electric bill when that thing opens up&starts to get busy. 😀
You said the cable is big because the connector can do both AC and DC, but that wrong. The cable is big usually to include things higher amperage and/or water cooling.
The Tesla V3 cable also does higher amperage and is liquid cooled and it got thinner rather that thicker
Point being that a CCS connection doesn't even have the AC pins populated, it's only the DC wiring, not both at the same time. The connector is a waste of space.
Regarding my Ford might be doing this, I don’t think it’s because they’re not selling enough vehicles. They’re selling so many vehicles that they’re needing to raise prices, or they feel like they can raise prices, because they’ve been selling out of inventory. I suspect the problem isn’t sales, but rather complaints from their users who are telling them that their deal with electrify America isn’t cutting it.
People are tired of broken chargers.
@@AndreAngelantoni 100%
Also the cost savings of nacs5
Jim is being pragmatic.
He's in "what's the best chance of survival?" mode.
.
"Playing nice" with Tesla is their best chance.
.
It's as simple as that.
Ricky, that was a J1772 connector, NOT a CCS1 connector. The CCS1 is MUCH larger than what you showed.
Not sure what you mean, he showed both. Did he call J1772 CCS at some point?
Reminds me of the early days of computing (1950s to 1970s) where register lengths varied all over the place: 12-bit (pdp-8), 36-bit (Univac), 16-bit (pdp-11), 32-bit (IBM 360/370). Now multiples of 32 bits is the standard.
Thank you. You made that simple to understand.
In the EU, most homes are setup with 3 phase AC wiring so they would need a plug with 3 pins just for that. combining the AC into the same pins used for DC fast charging works wherever 1 phase or split phase like in the US exists. I'm sure the EU would be better served with a plug that isn't a tack on, but the NACS plug as configured presents challenges for such territories as the CCS plug is not ideal at all for North America. On a side note, some people seem to think if you have a CCS car they are interchangeable with other CCS chargers around the world, but they are not.
A true middle-ground would have been the (already existing!) "DC-mid" option for Type2. This pairs up the 3 phase + neutral pins in the Type2 plug for DC and could easily support >250kW charging (i.e. enough for most people).
Tesla could have pushed for an extension of this already existing standard to also pair up the pins for split-phase AC - then we would have had a truly universal standard for all around the world.
@@stephanweinbergerit is unfortunate that Tesla was the only company selling to consumers to use the type 2 plug for DC charging without adding two more pins, but other companies decided that making the plug bigger to avoid paying for another set of high-voltage switches.
One more reason the EU stinks.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis
Renault Zoe has 3 input bridge rectifiers. At single phase, it connects L3 with N, and it makes about 300V of rectified DC, which gets boosted though motor windings to 400V when charging. When 3 phase AC, it makes about 500V, and it gets 'chopped' to 400V.
If on the input side there was DC + at L3 and N, and DC - at L1 and L2, they would just pass through the rectifier, only limited by rectifier diodes current capability. And the motor windings would just act as a wire in the DC circuit and current would just pass though.
In European, Tesla is going for the European standard, which is the CCS. Tesla intends to supply an adaptor for owners of old models of Tesla car for charging as the Tesla charging stations are being converted to CCS.
Users of Chargemap can link their account to a Tesla account, which means I can charge my Hyundai ioniq 5 at an Tesla charging station.
Happy days!
A 🏴 living in 🇮🇪
The CCS in Europe is very different (and alot better) than the CCS used in the US. The one in the US is AWFUL. The European CCS is fine. I've used it on trips to Europe.
@@TheRealMartin IMHO CCS type 2 is BETTER then Tesla/NACS as the A/C in 3 phase is FAR higher then the single/split phase of Tesla/NACS
but the USA is the ONLY country where 3 phase is NOT common so for the USA CCS VS NACS NACS wins but for "the rest of the world" LOOSING 3 phase is bigger then a "sleek" handle
Tesla is not ‘going for’ the CCS2 European Standard… The EU is MANDATING the CCS2 standard.
@@jasonriddell This could have easily been solved had Tesla adopted the "DC-mid" option that's already specified in the Type2 standard (where the 3 phase + neutral AC wires are paired up and used for DC). To better support the US system, Tesla could have pushed for an extension to this standard to allow a similar pairing for use in split-phase systems.
The result would have been a truly universal charging standard, that supports AC charging in 3-phase and split-phase grids with up to 43kW, and DC charging.
The standard currently specifies 140kW max for DC (2x 70A @1000V), but given that the surface area of the 4 power pins in a Type2 plug is larger than the surface area of the 2 pins in NACS, it should be absolutely no problem to push that to 250kW or even higher. I.e. more than enough for everyday use for most people.
But now we're again stuck with 2 incompatible connectors, which will just drive up cost for the consumer.
Why would you want to? Here in the UK the Tesla network is rather patchy. I use providers such asd Instavolt and Gridserve wher epayment is contactless by card. I am not constrained by any accounts or apps and can shop around for the cheapest charging. Tesla is just a monopoly.
Well done. Very pleased to have found you.
Fantastic segment as always. Funny you say that about the GM Bolt, would like to hear more of an expanded episode on their future.
Excellent summary of the charger mess! Thank you.
5 years from now I may get an electric vehicle. Tech moves too quick to jump in. This is a good thing to standardized a charging setup.
Not really true. I would not buy anything that’s not a TESLA right now. That’s for damn sure. No one has really scaled production yet other than TESLA.
TESLAs charging port compared to CCS is exactly the thousands upon thousands of decisions in their integrated solution is why every other companies charging solution sucks.
RIVIAN has to go NACS, otherwise, I would never even consider their vehicles for anything.
It's moving too quick and, in the case of the USA, even in some contradicting ways that I don't think are helping many: we've got people claiming CCS is dead (in the USA), and yet, at the same time, they've got automakers claiming more 18 months producing EVs with CCS!
I mean, who's now going to want to buy a dead horse?! And why are they going to produce more dead horses over the next 18 months?! What a mess imho!!
@@you2be839 it can’t move fast enough.
@@you2be839 adapters will prevent any dead horses. Tech will always be moving forward. The only benefit to waiting things out is to see emerging more affordable cars. Thankfully the “beta vs vhs” war looks like it’s over in North America and we can all move on with life with NACS.
Great work. I saw some happy Rivian owners yesterday. They were disconnecting from a Tesla Supercharger in Parish, NY. They left with smiles!
Oh wow! the magic dock chargers?
Great summary regarding charging plugs. THANK YOU!
Hey Ricky, great video as always! I gotta disagree with you on one point. Standardized chargeport locations aren’t what’s needed. What needs to happen is a change in station design to allow pull-thru vehicles so hitch racks and trailers can easily charge.
Good point that too!
@@TwoBitDaVinci Tesla does this already in places like Norway that have a very strong caravan culture towing trailers in the summer so it's certainly within Tesla's wheelhouse of site design. Thanks!
@@anthonyc8499 I live in Australia and we also have a strong caravan towing culture, but there is no way a Tesla would be used to Tow the caravans here, they wouldn't make it to the next charger. Don't worry i'm not having a laugh at Tesla i'm laughing at the idea of EVs towing caravans in Australia. Huge distance between towns and next to no charging infrastructure. Many, many years before it happens in Australia.
But yes they should build drive through charge stations. Have you seen how many people can't reverse park... lol
Just like with petrol pumps.
Never even though of this, but it’s a brilliant point.
In addition to Aptera/Ford/GM commitments have been made for NACS by Freewite, EVGo, ABB, Everharge, Flo, Autel, Blink and XCharge (potentially more I may have missed - most in the last 3 days)
Great video! Very clear and informative....
Another superb overview by Ricky and two-bit DaVinci. Bravo!
I guess my main concern is giving a monopoly standard to a private company, sure the plug is open source right now but does the cable allow for much higher increases in current capacity? The main terminals on the NACS port have much less surface area than a CCS or even CHAdeMo.
Quite right. NACS is just a Tesla dominated oligopoly where a few players will dictate what you pay for your charging. CCS is open and encourages price competition, no apps or accounts required.
Excellent presentation. Topics covered, and visuals were very helpful. Nice work!! Thank you.
Really excellent summary! Thanks, Ricky!
Great overview! Thanks for breaking it down so thoroughly and simply.
So far, Tesla doesn't seem to be talking publicly about how to handle the nearly half million CCS equipped cars already on the road. Tesla has done next to nothing to roll out Magic Dock at their chargers, yet they have announced nothing to sell that adapter either. Is that now open sourced? Will it ever be if not?
Adapters are a quick way to solve the problem, however a NACS plug swap is possible, especially with the cross compatibility in NACS and CCS pins, although a 3D printed shroud to best fit your car will be needed.
I have admit, I have not yet brought a EV because of all the changes being made at the moment. Here in 🇬🇧 we have already gone from having a type 1 and type 2 plug for ac charging. The type 2 won that battle as Europe made this the standard requirement. I believe like a lot of other products like you mentioned usb will eventually be pushed to one type only. Normally it be the safest/ easiest to use that will win
tesla connector dont support 3 phase ac so CCS2 was no brainer tbh
@@TheBogimenbut Teslas first implementation of the Type 2 connector could work, as there's both three phase AC and DC in the plug. It's actually supported in the standard.
@@mariusvalle Model X and S used their proprietary 'modified CCS2 socket'. It's not NACS type 2 or something else, and it offered slower charging than full-blown CC2 and have been abandoned.
@@TheBogimenTesla’s older Type 2 at least supports a simple passive adapter, although in some cases it does require a hardware upgrade to add the communications hardware for CCS.
@@TheBogimen Nobody in the US is charging their cars with 3 phase AC though. If you're at home, there's a 99% chance you don't have 3 phase. In a commercial installation, DC fast charging is more popular anyways.
The best explanation of a complicated topic. Great video! Thank you.
I own a 2020 model 3 which can't use the CCS adapter. I was going to update the power controller this month. Is there any reason to do this now? I can't see any, but would like to hear your opinion.
This might make sense in NA but in other places like europe where most chargers are CSS having a car without that or needing an adapter makes everything worst. In fact Tesla sales in europe took of after 2018 because they started using CSS instead of this plug.
Also our CCS here is different from the NA one, I believe the one used in Europe is called CCS2.
And the Tesla Connector cannot deliver our juicy 3 phase AC.
Just like you said in Europe we do have a standard that even Tesla uses. The problem with the latch breaking cannot happen as the latching is, like in the Tesla system, in the car. Wherever Tesla has opened their chargers to other brands it can happen without the need of any adapters. But what the NACS does not have is the capacity to used 3-ohase electricity which makes even higher charging rates in AC possible and common in many public areas.
I saw in another video regarding the size of the cable in the CCS standard and the explanation given was that it has a much greater service life specification than the Tesla cable and maybe it is not needed. We all know about Tesla's search for reducing costs everywhere, including the length of the cable itself.
I think it was the creator of the "Technology Connections" channel (blanked out on his name; sorry) who pointed out that Tesla's decision to trade away cable longevity to get better ease of use was a good one. So what if the Tesla charging cables need replacing after ten thousand uses? They'll be stock items, quickly changeable by a maintenance organization well accustomed to recycling the old ones.
Great video: you really explained a lot of complex equipment very clearly. You rock!
Excellent presentation. Thank you.
In Europe the CCS2 standard seems a lot better than CCS1. We also have three phase AC charging, so we do need those five prongs. Still room for improvement thou.
//Model X 2016 with CCS2 adaptor.
I think it's short sighted to standardize on a plug that's not 3-phase capable. NA doesn't really have 3-phase in the home, but basically every place outside of the home does.
3 phase is for losers
What a fantastic video. Thanks so much!
IMO this is one of the best videos you have ever created!
Thank you!
If one were to standardize charge port location on the vehicle; it should be considered for apartment dwellers that a front location, and preferably a front passenger side location (for curbside charging) would be preferred, and make it easier for them to adopt EV's.
I understand the left vs. right argument, but why front to back? Just back into a spot. In reality, how much would just adding a second adapter actually cost. Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem?
Quite sure it's remnant of people used to fill car from rear even though port in front would work much better in most cases. I example bought home charger with long cord so it can reach rear of a car from garage wall when i drive into my driveway.
In a house the station is usually on a front side wall. I know of no apartment owner that can afford an 80 grand car but three of my neighbors in their million dollar homes do.
@@mr.wizeguy8995it's easier to back into cramped spots because you have 2 wing mirrors that show you distance to obstacles and a reversing camera to assist with distance to wall.
Not as convenient for unloading, but if you need to charge via the rear you'll need space to walk back there anyway.
@@meateaw There are a lot of people who are afraid to drive reverse at all with their car and quite sure most accidents in parking slot are happening when someone is reversing their car.
For sure it would be best if those charging slot would be drive through and no reversing would needed at all.
CCS2, that we have in Europe (and that can charge at 22Kw/h on AC, that NACS cannot do) is not so bad a design. But CCS1 that North America has seems just dreadful, it's a really awful design. NACS is far superior.
Also ccs2 is capable of three phase power we have in Europe while cc1 in America was two phase max anyway so NACS makes sense there.
But we NEED CCS2 for three phase 11&22kw charging
NACS is limited to 80 amps AC of which I use 72 at home, CCS2 and Type 2 also put the lock on the car vs the charger it's not as bad as CCS1 aside from the bulk
I agree, CCS 2.0 is capable of 1000V 500A (500kW), NACS AFAIK is 350kW. I disagree that NACS is the way to go. 2.0 is designed that way because they didn't want to leave latching to the vehicle manufacturer as it opens a can of worms.
I'd rather have a clip that has to be replaced on a charger than a vehicle that's stuck to a charge station.
@@amateurwizard NACS is limited to 1000 kW (1000 amp at 1000 volts) and the latch override on the vehicle can be reached easily vs waiting on the station operator to come release your vehicle
@@KaceyGreen Thanks for the info on the latch override. However for A & V I should have specified that that is sustained speed without liquid cooling.
Excellent presentation! Thank you for the education.
Fantastic summary-thank you!!!
On the Tesla Plug and if it would establish itself in the EU. Here we have a 3 Phase Grid, so at home you would charge with 3 Phases to get 11 kW. So for that the Tesla Plug would have to be adapted. On that note CCS2 is way better than CCS1. So its not too bad that we are "stuck" with that. Also on that note, the first Model S and X in Europe DC fast charged using the Type 2 plug. Thats also why NACS is such a great and fitting name. Greetings from Germany.
Sidenote, maybe also do a video on the Megawatt Charging System. Because for cars its a done deal. But how will we charge trucks and other stuff (small planes) when we want to transfer 1 MW of power or more?
NACS will do 1 MW, I'm curious when Tesla will convert Semi from MCS2 to NACS or MCS3
@@KaceyGreen True, NACS can do 1 MW, which is just absolute bonkers if you think about it. But yes, for the really big equipment a charging standard like NACS should be decided upon right now. We dont want the CCS1 designed by comitte all over again.
Tesla in Europe used to use a modified version of Type 2 Mennekes plug for DC charging. This plug is backwards compatible and also supports Type 2 AC charging. Then the EU went with a combined port instead.. 🤦
That's correct. And there are many other countries outside of Europe that also have household 400V 3-phase power, including many countries in Asia, Africa, South America, Oceania...
@@Lukas_with_a_K - of course many countries have a hodgepodge of different standards, so whatever standard is adopted in those parts of the world will have to be able to adjust to a wide variety of inputs.
For Americas NACS is definitely better but for rest of the world it isn't so simple because it does not support 3 phase AC charging that is very common in homes, extra prongs are so connector size is not too big for home users. CCS1 connector itself isnt much bigger than NACS only latches are making it bigger because NACS have self aligning shape, CCS2 solves that and is basically the same. In Europe Tesla plugs have to speak CCS 'language' so the difference between it and CCS2 (which is standard here) is 3 phase AC support for home users in exchange for extra 2 prongs when using fast DC charging.
Yup - I have 3 phase, Teslas connector would never work in Europe. The USA is far behind in so many things.
NACS port supports 3 phase power….
@@dogbots159how can it provide 3 phase? You can't put 3 phases on 2 wires.
Always great information!
incredibly clear and compelling presentation. thanks much
I think companies like ABB, ChargePoint, and Kempower should just make combo DC fast charging and Tesla charging stations 🔌 !
⛔️No more Japanese Nissan chargers ⛔️😢
If people are worried about a standard, just rename the NACS to CCS3. USB-A is much different than USB-C specifically from the form factor so it's been done before.
Uses the same signaling and Tesla is already a CharIN member so it can be done
@@KaceyGreen Tesla ADOPTED CCS J1772 signalling
something NOT being "talked about" is Tesla MADE changes for this to happen - likely partly due to EU mandating CCS2/J1772
AND the "magic adaptor" Superchargers have to "talk" J1772
CCS3 is already "a thing"
@@jasonriddell
You mean ISO15118
@@rogerstarkey5390 MCS3? I'm not seeing any references to CCS3 a passing reference to CCS 3.0 that implies it isn't finished but only CCS1 and CCS2 connectors by geography.
Great explanation, thanks.
Is there an adapter I can use to take a tesla charger and plug it into my ccs? (Not just J1772 but both CCS) Where do I get the adapter? Thanks.
Fantastic balanced review!…including why this is good for Tesla owners too!
Much appreciated!
@@TwoBitDaVinci so I don't think the NACS charge port is necessarily better than CCS type 2, in fact its intrinsically less safe as it relies on software and a hardware contactor to keep the AC and DC paths separate from one another. In a fault condition where say the DC contacts get welded together, you have the potential for AC to be applied directly to the Battery. Whilst I agree the NACS handle is smaller I think the safety issue with using the same path to carry AC or DC overrides any preference with regard to connector size. It may be that similar to many other conflicting standards over the years that this never gets resolved worldwide I.e. different plugs / sockets and voltage / frequencies worldwide or Betamax vs VHS.....
To accommodate the existing installed base of Tesla Superchargers, the car's port can be on left driver side, like Tesla, or front passenger side. Either way should let the short cord reach. And front passenger side might be better for charging on the street, with level 2 chargers on lamp posts or dedicated columns (for folks that don't have off street parking.)
"Rear left/front right" is a better description.
"Driver side" is ambiguous depending on location.
@@rogerstarkey5390 The point is that the drivers side is the worst possible location but the front passenger side would work with how the NACS chargers are set up.
@@user-wu3hg9we3y
My point was the "Drivers side (etc) depends where you are.
Excellent and insightful video Ricky. Thank you.
Nice job on the video btw:)
The standard side should be passenger side for the country you are in to accommodate curbside charging. Also does the cable and pin size on the NACS handle as high a DC charge as the J?
At least in the US, curbside parking is not that common.
@@jamesengland7461 maybe not, but it is convenient to have and costs nothing, and is more common other places.
In 2016 on the Daily Kos I wrote a post called "200-mile EV Paradigm (Part 2) - One Charger to Rule them All," where I implored the readers to tell their automakers and their representatives in government to use the Tesla Supercharger system as one system. For some reason I can't put the link to it here, so you are going to have to go there and find the post.
I'm almost convinced but how 'future-proofed' is the NACS plug? Will it be able to handle 1000volt EV architecture and charge at 400A plus? Can the CCS plug do this currently or will we see a change of plug designs for both involving thicker pins within the same design dimensions?
I put a deposit down on the Aptera a few months ago and patiently waiting for the news of production completion and delivery. I'm guessing 2 years. Enough time to save money for Aptera. I gave up my combustion car in 2015 and there are times I wish I hadn't. Ultimately I have save so much money annually by not owning a car and everything that comes with a combustion car to maintain. Now I'm preparing to enter that expensive space again but I follow Aptera News and believe their vision is so different than most American EV alternative vehicle vision. Aptera is about efficiency and so am I.
Munro made the comment on CCS that if you need a handle on a handle your de sign is wrong! They do not like CCS at all.
he is a BIG "Tesla nut" and EVERYTHING is inferior to a Tesla
When first building a charging network, it makes sense to put charging clusters in the most popular places. Can't serve customers or make money anywhere else. But more customers means that charging clusters in between the most popular places become more economical as the total number of clusters is expanded. I'd say Tesla owners should be happy as the distance between charging clusters will drop with a larger customer base (Ford, GM and soon to be Kia and VW). Given Tesla servers already consider charging congestion when routing customers, having a denser charging cluster grid will allow better optimization and hence even more convenient charging.
An example of this effect: Tesla's website now accepts applications to put a supercharger cluster at your business. As the customer base increases, it becomes more economical to have a charger at your favorite gym/superstore/bowling alley etc. Maybe not so useful if you're charging from home, but nice and certainly makes road tripping even more of a fun time.
IMHO a "destination" charger makes more sense at the GYM/ other recreation centers unless there are ENOUGH chargers to LEAVE charged cars on charge OR expect someone to move there car a half hour into a workout / match ETC
but having DC fast charging @ rest stops and motorway services or a "power centre" near the motorway
Dense charging clusters are the worst feature of the Tesla charging network. For example if you are traveling in your Tesla to the third largest metropolitan area in WA state your only option is to charge at the Fred Meyer parking lot in Kennewick WA. We really need about 50 charging locations minimum.
@@user-wu3hg9we3y Definitely. I should have pointed out above that few locations with many chargers have increased detour time compared to many locations. With many locations, rather than having a 10min detour, it might only be a 2 min detour. Of course if you're only going on interstates, those locations are set and your experience won't change much if you only care about minimum time. But if you care what you do on your breaks, more locations is more fun.
Excellent report.
Not related to the topic of the video, but what is the screen drawing app you're using on your tablet?
The importance of standardization is what gives us the same Nuts and Bolts that puts everything together to begin with.
Yes, while most(if not all) vehicles nowadays use the metric standard much of the equipment that is installed on work trucks here in America are still SAE for some damn reason. I'm one of the few Americans that would happy as hell if SAE and the Imperial system would just go away. One tool set to rule them all.
Yes this whole episode of insanity , just like the VHS Vs Beta, HD DVD Vs Blueray etc etc etc , needs to be confined to the dust bin of history !!! , just think for a moment how much extra E waste this has created!!! , 500 different charging stations with screens that aren't necessary & all the extra plastic & wire in the CCS charge cables , all redundant now & were never needed anyway !!!! , what a waste of time, money, materials & frustration !!! all for nothing !!!! complete insanity !
Indeed. Outside the US the nuts and bolts are metric. Inside the US? Maybe some metric but almost certainly a lot of Imperial or whatever you call it.
@@rogerphelps9939 Yeah, It feels like we're slowly moving to metric nuts and bolts. I think because all vehicles now use metric and most of the stuff we buy from China is metric too but you are definitely correct in saying there is still a lot of things that still use Imperial. Frustratingly so.
The NACS connector has already been updated to handle higher voltage from the original 480 to 1000. Also the thin cable will have to be increased in cross-sectional area to reduce voltage drop when a longer cable is added to accommodate different vehicles. Ultimately the CCS connector and cable which is liquid cooled has a much higher power handling capability. As vehicle charging speed increases in the future the NACS connector and uncooled cable system will have to be improved.
NACS can be liquid cooled
@@ogzombieblunt4626they will probably use this for higher-power stations, as it has already been tested years ago.
Connectors are still smaller than CCS and will cause more issues in some point when charging speed are rising and rising.
@@mr.wizeguy8995 I'm not sure, if anything higher than 350 kW might occur. Even with future battery technologies capable of insanely fast charging capabilities three 350 kW charging stations would already need over 1 MW power supply. We are already hitting the point for diminishing returns.
The only thing that even faster charging would make it reasonable are superconductor materials.
AMPERAGE requires wider cables not voltage. Get educated !!
speaking from a country where ccs2 is pretty much the standard with even tesla's using it, it isn't as bad as you make out, I've never had to use two hands for it, and the socket isn't that big.
I will say though it is good on a country level that one standard is picked, even if it will differ from country to country due to differing standards of the electricity grid worldwide, and that ccs1 cable you showed does look like a clunky pain!
Great information
My first reaction when Ricky (spelling?) said there are separate AC and DC power pins was why not use electronic switching between circuits with just two pins? We have the switching elements that can handle the currents and voltages involved. The electronics can talk to each other through the data connections. I am simply an electronics hobbyist. Am I some sort of natural self taught engineer?
Weirdly the J1772 plug actually has a DC mode built into the standard that nobody ever used.
J1772 existed long before even the Tesla Model S. The SAE insisted on J1772 compatibility for CCS. Unfortunately the pins on J1772 are not big enough to carry the current needed for DC fast charging. That's why they had to add extra pins for DC fast charging for CCS. Tesla designed their plug from the start with big pins so that the same pins could be used for AC and DC charging.
J1772 was still in draft form, not finalized, when the Model S was released.
@@GregHassler Um WHAT? "In June 2001, CARB adopted the SAE J1772-2001 standard as the charging interface for electric vehicles in California."
I enjoy your engineering perspective.
You point out the 'heavy' bits are part of the vehicle. 😊
The simplified hand-held and lightweight bits are on the end of a simpler cable.
Question for someone in the know.
If you plug in a CCS or NACS, can these provide both DC for fast charging from the charger and pass through AC to the car's inverter? That would charge the battery even faster.
The naming was genius!
In Australia we have CCS2 almost universally, including Tesla. This has meant there is a far larger network of chargers available as 3rd party charge stations well outnumber Tesla. The CCS2 plugs in the US may have the faults you mentioned, like the external catch, but they don't here, and even the charge port on a Tesla is accessable as it is in the US, open the door & plug in- no other caps need to be removed. As I understand it the NACS plug doesn't allow charging from a 3 phase source whilst the CCS2 does
The other U.S. standard is CCS1, not CCS2.
The electrical systems in North America were developed from a different standard than most of the rest of the world, and that is also reflected in all this. We do have three phase power (120/208 and 277/480) but it is almost exclusively for commercial properties (I've seen a total of _one_ old house that had a three phase connection). Commercial properties would most likely have a grid connection tied to a DC fast charger, so there's no real advantage to having three wires in the charging cable.
The American electrical system was designed for greater safety at a time when most of the world couldn't afford the extra copper and larger number of transformers that it requires.
CCS type 2 supports 3 phase
Amercican TYPE 1 does NOT support 3 phase only single phase
and Tesla/NACS supports only single phase
but like stated below 3 phase is NOT used in the USA outside huge commercial buildings
even in Canada 3 phase is NORMAL for multi unit housing and almost EVERY commercial building is 3 phase
BUT we NEVER were gifted with a standard to use 3 phase AC car charging
@@alanlight7740 in Canada / Mexico 3 phase is common in multi unit housing and even LARGE homes are 3 phase in some areas
@@alanlight7740 Thanks for the explanation, I was more reacting to the suggestion that Europeans (and I guess by extension Australians) should campaign to have their standards changed to NACS - no thanks
Everyone keeps saying that NACS can't handle 3 phase power are incorrect. All USA supercharger clusters run on 3 phase power. The power conversion and rectification is handled inside the charger housing. Home charging on 3 phase would simply require a conversion transformer/rectifier brick in the charging line. That box on your wall serves more than just an aesthetic box with blinking light to look at while connected.
You don't just plug your EV into a power outlet.
Ricky, an absolutely excellent explanation! I couldn’t agree with you more, regarding what an important tipping point this is for EV adoption and, as you pointed out, for the selling features of different car manufacturers. It doesn’t matter how good your vehicle is, without a NACS (Tesla) charging compatibility, it won’t sell.
and as some of these companies are really ramping up... its not too late, and its so important that we get this right!
Tesla will have to work out something with the cable length though, either that or a third party will have to make an adapter/extension until car manufacturers place the sockets closer to the right front or left rear bumper, or else there will be some very interesting parking behaviors at the superchargers.
This an exclusively US centric view. Everywhere else, a true standard (CCS) is used by everybody, including Tesla. A true standard helps adoption and does not hinder it.
Your reply is euro centric and is not correct for many other places in the world.
@@_TbT_the V4 stalls solve this by lengthening the cable to around 10 feet.
What's even more important is that the *user experience* will be much improved.
Nobody else seems to be able to have something behind the charger plug that is worth a [expletive].
No OEMs, no charging networks, no installation parts or processes can compete with *Tesla* for consistent ease of use or uptime.
Exactly.
It's no good having "super duper high speed" if it won't handshake.
"Plug in. Charging in 5 seconds, time for ..... Whatever" is the requirement.
What about my current EV in-home EVSE? When my current EV wears out (5-10 years) will I need buy a new EVSE, or will there be a cord/adapter replacement?
With NACS looking to become the Standard, may make it easier to get more prime locations for chargers. Possibly buy out old gas stations and convert most of the parking to charging and have the store for same reasons gas stations used them.
No question that gas stations will need to retrofit for the growing BEVs. Great opportunity for a charging company.
There are concepts of converting gas stations into EV charging stations... and instead of being a plain store, they would put a cafe or similar establishment instead since they expect you to hang around at least half an hour to charge. A plain store would be a bit plain, so it has to be something that encourages you to hang out there.
@@zeighy yeah that’s kinda what I had envisioned. Maybe small coffee shop waiting area for those 15-30 minute charging sessions. Still would want the typical gas station fare because who doesn’t like overpriced candy and chips.
@@jjj32801 You do not want to use old gas stations because slapping chargers above the tanks in the ground only allows them to avoid removing the tanks which are hazardous. Gas station owners are likely going to abandon the stations and then the epa will have to pay to clean most of them up.
Only in America will it be the standard and I know that Americans think that the USA is the whole world, but the rest of the world ie not America, uses CCS, even Tesla in Europe has Tesla chargers with CCS and Tesla Cars in Europe have CCS sockets in them
The bill of materials difference according to Munro is 30% cheaper for NACS. Smaller and only 2 cables running to the battery instead of 3+. Throw in lighter and it is insane to use any of these other "standards".
Problem with this is you can't use multiphase AC chargers with the NACS right?
Here in Australia I can get 32kw+ home chargers when I have 3 phase power.
I dont see how you can do multiphase AC without more pins.
Terrific video. Thanks.
Best example of standardisation is MIDI standard was formed in 1983 and despite using different connectors and different networks the standard has held good for decades because it was so well thought out
Okay I want to point out that all trucks will always need to have their charge ports in the front for when they are hooked up to a trailer and need to charge, this will be especially common when traveling with a rv trailer. If the charge port is at the back taillight of a truck it will at least need a 25 ft cord to reach back there. You can’t just think about the vehicle itself, and forget about the porpoise of the vehicle, like a truck that is designed to tow trailers.
- just as most truck stops are "pull through" - dual side chargers will work well. (Real trucks don't tend to nose into the curb when hauling).
(fuel bowsers are all pull through too - EV - curbside setup (without overhead cover) needs to change.)
(Putting charge ports IN the primary crumple / strike zone is idiotic...)
The front right corner is equally compatible with Tesla Superchargers as is the left rear corner. But rest assured Tesla will install longer cables.
True. But if they put it on the front right it would still work if they pull in head first. Although, if they have a trailer they can't pull into the spot regardless. Most Tesla stations have the separate guy on the end for trailers so they can pull through.
There are pull through chargers
@@GregHassler (or cars with strange configurations can supply their own extension.)
12:00 - I always liked the placement of the charge port on my early LEAF: front and center just above the front bumper. Backing is easy in Teslas, but if the charging hardware was installed as pull-through, there would be no backing. Where Tesla has the charge port now combined with a pull-through Supercharger station would be ideal.
It is not going to be a pull through.
It would be interesting to make a video about car software and standardization there too. I appreciate what you do and thank you for the great content.
That single frame blink at 1:33 - editor had a coffee break? :D
Lightning absolutely could have taken off as a standard, but unfortunately Apple isn’t too keen on sharing
licencing MONEY $$$ for every cable that "works with apple" is worth nearly what the iPhone is worth to APPLE
That is no big loss to anyone.
This has been an exciting few days, can't wait to see who's next after these four automakers, two station manufacturers (plus Tesla) and two additional charging networks so far, and a boat builder.
You nailed it. I had to watch two times to absorb and to connect the dots.
Thanks!
Ricky, This is one of your best videos ever. Important topic. Thanks.
I think that Tesla made a marketing mistake when they named it NACS. They should have called it SCS for Simple Charging System, which doesn't offput non-North American locations from adopting it.
We don't want it, we already solved our charging needs. Kind thanks /europe. ;)
Nice idea, but from a technical point of view the plug is made for the North American power system only. The european power system needs one more pin for optimal performance. This is the reason why at least Europe couldn’t use the NACS plug, unless they change it.
Thanks,@@06boot. I've been learning about this point in the comments.
Great presentation as usual . The infrastructure has in my opinion been the elephant in the room the media rarely talk about.
If you believe mass media in anything regarding Tesla you probably believe a lie.
Excellent video Ricky