Stylistic Prejudice in Geometry Dash (Video Essay)
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- Опубликовано: 26 фев 2021
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Stylistic Prejudice in Geometry Dash is an issue I have wanted to talk about for a long time, and I finally address it in this video. After months of thinking about the current state of the creating community and the issues with it, I have finally produced this essay that discusses the increasing amount of bias both toward and against certain styles in Geometry Dash creating, from both a decoration and gameplay viewpoint. I have deemed this bias ‘Stylistic Prejudice,’ and in this video, I go fully into detail about what it is, examples of its manifestation, and the ideological issues with its prominence. Please make sure to watch the whole video for a good understanding, and I hope you enjoy.
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Pokemon HG/SS Soundtrack - Pewter City Theme:
• Pewter City - Pokémon ...
Pokemon X/Y Soundtrack - Coumarine City Theme:
• Video
Pokemon D/P Soundtrack - Pokemon Center Theme:
• Pokémon Center (Night)...
Pokemon S/M Soundtrack - Lillie’s Encounter Theme:
• Pokemon Sun & Moon - L...
Pokemon D/P Soundtrack - Hearthome City Theme:
• Hearthome City (Night)...
Pokemon D/P Soundtrack - Eterna City Theme:
• Eterna City (Day) - Po...
Pokemon X/Y Soundtrack - How About A Song? // “Jubilife City” Theme:
• How About a Song? "Jub...
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Railblazer - / thegamingmaster999
Zeronium - / @zeronium
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Игры
In my opinion, experimental isn't a style; the whole point of experimental levels are that they do stuff that hasn't been done before, so you can't really call them all one style. The whole point of experimental levels are that they are unique; that's why the community likes them.
imo, the point of experimental levels is to... well, experiment stuff and the community is supposed to give feedback on wether or not what the creator did in his experimental level is good. i feel like the word "experimental" is just misused and people actually just wanna say "unorthodox" or "unusual". a creator can make something unusual while not being experimental, because making unusual/different is their style. and on the other hand, a creator can make something usual and call it experimental because they went out of their comfort zone (experimenting effects, backgrounds, color scheme, movements, style, pulses, etc). this is a complicated topic to talk about, but this is just my opinion so, no one cares
'experimental' is an umbrella term for genres that take on a more unconventional look on a style/genre, which could turn in to their own genre
Thanks for the shoutout, though it is a little bit of bad timing since I'm currently considering taking a short break from GD due to mental health issues.
Rip
Big fat ripperonie
That's unfortunate and it's okay
I hope you'll have your time to take care of yourself
and also
AMOGUS
In all honesty, I see that people tend to hate more on styles that are overused, it brings the mindset that all levels that have or will be made are bad, which is wrong, any style can be good as long as it's executed correctly, its not good just to judge a level poorly over the style it uses
True, I hate the notion that a level has to be super unique and original to be good
based mons
Yeah… unoriginal design style is so overdone that you just have to ignore it unless it’s really good. Don’t hate on me even though I look like a disgusting freak here, but there is no way I can word this in a way to show what I really mean. Basically, people should start to try out other styles instead of sticking with design, making it just as common as other styles. If it is the same rarity as the rest, I’m ok with it. It’s really hard to find non-design levels nowadays and I find that annoying.
IGNORE MY REPLY AAAA
@@utubeiskaren7796 i do agree with this to a certain context, yes the design is use a lot and it is tired to look at it, but that does not make it bad tbh, it is just something, if the creator make it for fun and get hate for it then people are jerk, if everything have to be original then nothing is original in the first place, what i think people should be more focused on instead of what other doing is improve on yourself and have fun
the generic glow style of deco is not bad, just not original and people dont seem to get that making original levels every time is really difficult
I agree.
We can even further this idea: Most people think that simpler design levels fall into the "generic style", yet for how I see it. The term generic shouldn't even be counted as a style. "Generic" is more like a trend that people follow while "simple (design let's say)" is a style that should have a chance for people to like rather than it being subjected to Stylistic prejudice.
I agree
I've been hated for liking certain well-made glow levels
i would way rather play a bad level that is creative than a glow level that’s not creative
@@sunyy3940 Should be literally the opposite.
So i completely agree with your points in this video that levels should be critiqued individually, the same points are repeated a lot and this video could have been like 10-13 minutes. Just saying.
Agreed
While I like the argument you present and do agree how it does affect the majority of the community in a rather negative way leading to gatekeeping or forcing down beliefs onto others, the way it was presented I do think was a bit weak and to people who might not already believe in the same ideas, it might be difficult for them to really understand where you're coming from to really agree with you.
Your general video style often has you talking with videos of other levels in the background. While not bad, there are times while watching the video where I do tend to put more of a focus on the level itself (regardless of its relation to the argument) even when I've already seen it before. I sometimes rewind back just in case I misheard something simply because my attention was put elsewhere.
We also lose a bit of understanding when you cite levels some of us might have not ever heard of, talk about people criticizing creators for certain reasons without any actual proof, or explain abstract examples that need a more concrete or visual example to properly explain well. I could understand where you're coming from as an experienced creator for the community, but to a skeptic or new creator, they could easily brush it off as someone talking without any basis for his points at all.
I also do think the argument could be more concise if you merged your points on Decoration and Gameplay together. Yes, they're very different facets of creating with very different standards and ideas behind them, but they still share the same problem regardless that would be much better talked about as its own single section rather than reiterating the same ideas you've mentioned previously on Decoration into Gameplay itself. Gameplay does have more heavy generalization than Decoration, but that's simply because the field is much more popular and the same level of prejudice can apply to Red & Black levels simply being associated as the standard "Hell" Level for its widespread popularity within the community.
pretty long comment. Kinda like what I said except not 1773 words long and i go way more in depth.
@Sequex I completely agree with this comment, especially with the part about level gameplays in the background. One of the cool things about videos is the possibility to use visuals to reinforce you arguments are you explain them, and this video doesn't take advantage of that.
The video summed up in five words: Overused does not mean bad.
it depends on the situation though
e.g. overusing a layout style is fine, but experimenting with other styles would be a lot better because it makes layout creators more versatile
Hi someone recommended this video saying it was awful so I'm here to comment my opinion like all the other people in here
First of all, I agree with the main point of the video. People shouldn't blindly hate on levels just because they follow a certain style. You can't just see that a level is "experimental" or "glow megacollab" and immediately say it's bad just because you don't like the style.
But what worries me the most from this video is how you treat all hate towards certain styles as irrational. People can have reasons to not like specific types of decoration or gameplay, but you never really dive into those and instead just talk about the whining that results from it. People like certain styles of levels, they also like certain themes for books or genres of movies. For each their own, and each has their own reasons for their preferences.
Take someone who likes comedy movies to watch the best horror movie of all time. You can't expect them to enjoy it, and they'd probably rather watch a more average comedy movie just because they don't like the elements that make horror movies, well, horror movies.
(I have nothing against comedies or horror movies. You can swap every "horror" and "comedy" there, the point is still the same)
It seems like you're expecting every player to act as a movie critic, and treat everything equally and see their good qualities, regardless of style. But not everyone is a critic, most are spectators, and spectators will choose which movie to watch, and whine if they didn't like it. Of course, if you're criticizing a level or giving feedback on someone's work, you should put aside your prejudices and talk about the level's actual quality, regardless of what type of level it is. Still, most people will criticize a level from their own preferences rather than the qualities of the individual level itself. Even if that sounds wrong, that's just how it is.
For example, I've never been a huge fan of overly convoluted "flow"-y gameplay styles with an extreme focus on sync, and been more drawn towards simpler, more platforming-based styles such as Taman, Alkali or Hinds. As a player, I'd rather play something with engaging patterns than good sync. Despite that, I can still appreciate the good aspects of a well-made sync-based layout, even if I don't like certain aspects of them. They're still GOOD in their own way. And someone might love what I hate and hate what I love and still have valid points to do so. (Ex. Someone might prefer faster-paced sync gameplay to slower-paced platform-y gameplay because they prefer all the action and find clicking to the beat and melody really satisfying. And that's alright, it's their preference, not prejudice! As long as they don't bash all layouts they don't like just because they don't like them. That's prejudice.)
TL;DR what you classify as "Hate towards specific styles" is just players showing their preference towards what they like, and you can't force someone to enjoy something they don't like. Still, saying something is bad just because you don't like it is really wrong.
Either that, or I just missed the point of the video entirely. I believe someone else already made some huge paragraphs about how convoluted your script was. The video could have been shortened down to 10 minutes and included more meaningful examples. Timestamps would have been nice too. (I think I also recommended it in a previous video of yours, have you looked into them yet?)
I'm not hoping for everyone to watch this video to defend it and "spread the message" that all styles are equal, but I'm sure hoping that it can generate some great discussions about criticism and level styles. And if anyone is somehow reading this, I'd love to hear what you think too. Take care! :)
PD: I'd put "effect layouts" as a decoration style rather than a gameplay style myself, because at that point the focus shifts from just gameplay to gameplay + visuals. Aleph 0 is more a level by itself than a layout, and "effect layout" is just the type of decoration it stuck to. My opinion though, feel free to either disagree or bash me for it!
the only time style really bothers me is when the deco makes it hard to see the gameplay, aside from that its whatever i don't really care what the deco looks like as long as the levels fun to play
THANK YOU! As a creator who makes glow/design deco, and flow/clicksync gameplay, this has been bugging me for a long time. I've experienced this firsthand aswell. I posted a picture of some glow deco I made for feedback on discord. (It wasn't a very impressive build) I got some feedback from a well-established creator (who I will not name), known for creating original effect levels, saying roughly "Ugh, more design creator is the last thing we need." Not focusing on the quality of the deco and how to improve it, rather complaining about the style it was built in. I really enjoy building and watching glow/design style levels, and seeing how they are universally looked down upon annoys me. I haven't really experienced a lot of predjudice towards flowy clicksynced gameplay though, with almost everything I post with that gameplay style only getting positive or constructive feedback, but seeing your example it's still obvious that it exists. (Btw the old layout I have on my channel is old, and does not represent how I create gameplay nowadays)
I agree with some of the other comments here. I like your videos quite a bit and the documentaries are very well made, especially the Demon List video, but I came out of this one with mixed feelings. I guess I agree with the overall sentiment but had some problems with the presentation of the video and the organization of the script.
The visuals are lacking; another comment pointed out how the mostly irrelevant background levels not only add nothing interesting to the video, but also distract from the topic at hand, instead making me rewind a few times to catch anything I missed because I was paying attention to the level onscreen. If the visuals were more detailed and/or related to the video, even at a bare minimum, it would both increase the quality of the video and make the points you were trying to make more digestible. I understand the work put into editing is a lot and sometimes there isn't time for it, but I think that it's vital to couple visual examples with the information being thrown at the viewer, or this becomes more of a podcast instead of a video.
This wouldn't have been that bad if not for the organization of the script, which is what really threw me off. A lot of the points in this video (see some of the other comments for specific examples) were unnecessarily convoluted and difficult to follow, seeming more like filler than concrete assertions. These points could have easily been condensed into less than half the time they actually took up, or combined with other points instead of separated into different parts of the video (especially on a larger scale with the divide between decoration and gameplay). The introduction was also way too long (8 minutes before any arguments were actually made instead of just explaining the context of the video). I really do understand the urge to explain everything and clear as many misconceptions as possible, a problem I myself experience often, but it isn't necessary here and disrupts the progression of the video. And there's just so much fat that results in some portions seeming out of place for the time of the video they're in, while other portions seem completely redundant.
Again, I understand the general idea this video is trying to propose, but I think the details could've been presented a lot more smoothly. Keep it up though, I still enjoy the content and hope to see stuff like this in the future, in a more streamlined way!
- Timestamps -
00:00 CaveMelv Shoutout
02:06 Introduction
05:44 The Creating Style Explanation
08:07 The First Argument: Decoration Styles
15:41 The Second Argument: Gameplay Styles
20:47 The First Counter Claim: Style Application
22:49 The Second Counter Claim: Conclusion
27:23 Outro
Tell me if I missed anything. :)
When it comes to certain gameplay styles like memory for instance, my problem lies with actually playing the level. Spending too much time learning a level can quickly suck any potential enjoyment that you might have playing it after the fact, and can become nothing but a source of frustration and anger in the long run (for me at least). For this reason I think not caring for a particular style is completely fine at least when it comes to gameplay. Little things that come with certain gameplay styles usually persist in all levels that use that style. Spam levels for instance cause actual pain in my hand so I will never be able to enjoy those. Where I think the problem lies is not having these opinions but rather in publicizing them as if they are facts or correct. When it comes to decoration I have no issue with any particular style, however I do think the standards are too high. A lot of levels are viewed as not very good for there decoration alone which I believe to be a bigger problem than anything else. Sure watching or even playing levels that set the bar is amazing in it's own right, but comparing them to all levels you play after the fact is just not right. As long as a level doesn't look bad, it should be accepted (if the gameplay is good of course). At the end of the day Geometry Dash is a game not an art gallery. A level should be considered a good level if you had fun playing it, not just because it looks good.
I have a few points to make. They’re not exactly counter-arguments as I agree with your points overall. I’d call them additions from my point of view/ experience.
I usually like to compare GD levels to music in the way that there’s a composition that takes up a certain amount of time and that usually has somewhat of a continuity and flow throughout in order not to appear wacky. Different creating styles in GD, in this analogy, align with music styles (some were even inspired by their music counterparts indicating that there definitely is a connection). Now, where it gets interesting is when taste comes into the mix. Just like people enjoy the music genres they like, they enjoy playing levels of certain preferred styles. And all the time you have toxic people saying "[certain style or artist I don’t like] can’t ever be good music." I believe this is exactly what you’re talking about, just in a GD context. There’s people, and I count myself as one of them, who dislike most flow style gameplay. However, these statements make it seem like disliking a style means disliking every individual work that follows it. This causes the problems you’re talking about of otherwise innocent people like you and me thinking they have to take this approach when that’s totally not the case. This is unhealthy toxicity and leads to bad results, BUT...
it’s a natural reaction of the community. To get into my second point, I want to give an example from one of your recent videos, I believe it’s the History of the Demons List. There you mentioned the way difficult levels as a category were once looked down upon. However, a few shining masterpieces of higher difficulty was all it took for them to receive the community’s interest and later total glorification. This is how omnipresent stances in the community shift around over time. You started in the wrong era of creating? Better push out those masterpieces to get your style recognized by a ridiculous amount of players. Aleph 0 or Cold Sweat are examples of these. No one was talking about these styles, then one work makes it to the top and suddenly the entire stylistic idea is admired by everyone. So, how does the downfall of styles take place? Usually not at all as the creating community generally keeps styles around to have a more varied repertoire of ideas and stylists choices. In this special case, however, multiple styles are losing community tolerance and support. What can this be a reaction to? I say it’s RobTop clearly prioritizing quality over originality. The community dislikes that and starts admiring everything that’s off the norm set by rates and features beyond the limits in the belief that this is the way to make up for it. Now a typical situation has occurred in which a powerful influence (RobTop) is asked to act according to a group of individuals who take harmful stances. Sadly, I have no solution at hand to this dilemma, but I still felt the need to point it out. The result is what we’re experiencing right now: What was once original has now become a boring norm. Just like it once happened with Nine Circles levels, Hell levels and basically every other level trend of the past. The danger of this very situation is that even RobTop seems to be biased and the community reacts with a large bias of their own on the opposing side.
My last point is probably somewhat of a hot take. To get back to the originality of levels, I take the stance that if variety in styles is to increase we need to get rid of the entire style concept as we know it. In my opinion, no one has the right to name any style that isn’t their own. It’s a major annoyance to me when people unnecessarily feel the need to categorize everything I create saying "Oh, you’re going for this style? Well, you’re not doing it correctly." Yes, I am because, see, I’m not going for any of your styles, I have my own one. This forced categorization is unhealthy because if we applied it to everything there would only ever be one true stylistic interpretation of an idea. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this likely applies to the glow community more than any other and might be part of the reason so many of its levels are unoriginal and bland. I hope this gets changed some time because, as you said, original glow levels are no less than those of other styles and this ridiculous suppression of creative freedom leads to a lack of them.
I was more surprised that most of my favorite styles are the ones that tend to be hated on. I tend to really like effect decoration with crazy art pieces and gameplay that sometimes even sacrifices some readability in the name of sheer blistering speed.
Yeah idk why people hate on speedcore so much it's actually my favorite gameplay style
It almost seems like levelution found its way in the community, tho still a bit different
I have some points to make, specifically for some people in the comment section of this video.
1. Norkbork has gained his audience through minimal editing, and that has proven to work for him before. He has never made it a point to put many visuals in his videos. If you want to rag on him now for the same fact, you are simply wrong. Yes, it might be helpful for more related visuals, he doesn't owe you anything in terms of visuals, and if you want to be salty about that fact now that he has gained a following then that proves that your standards are just based on a subscriber count.
2. Many of you are criticizing the amount of time that he took to preface the video. Many things like "the first 10 minutes could be 3 minutes" and such. What you are missing is that a large majority of GD watchers are very critical, and in my opinion, have a short attention span. Without going out of his way to make the point that "if you are not going to watch the whole thing, don't watch it at all", there would be many idiots in the comments who do such thing, criticizing the video with watching the whole thing. Even on this video, I have seen people admit that they didn't watch the whole thing and still criticize it. You are just proving him right, in that the community won't give a video their full attention before forming an opinion. You are the problem here. If these people didnt do this, nork wouldn't have to go out of his way to make his point.
As for the writing in this video, it is okay to criticize, but you MUST do so RESPECTFULLY. You cannot expect a youtube to push out full length, fully thought out video essays every week and them all to be great, and hold them up to the bar that he has set in the past. If you guys start criticizing norkbork's character from his writing style in one video, I have lost all respect for you. On top of this, Nork has also mentioned he is a student. These can be some trying times for students, and managing a large youtube channel while managing a heavy workload all while being trapped inside your house at times, can be really stressful. I am sure some of you can relate to just the homework part, so I would like for us to collectively give some leeway for the writing in his videos currently.
ily barry
Present layout update day 3:
pls
@@heinzmustard7267 lol
@@heinzmustard7267
Joke explain: King Bach is eating noodles with a Japanese guy
and is having a bit oftrouble with his chopsticks. The Japanese
guy say "black guy having trouble" while clicking his chopsticks
easily. King bach replies "ain't no trouble. Rico!" And proceeds to
call his friend Rico into the room by clapping. Rico brings him a
comically large fork. King bach stands up and proceeds to stab
the noodles with the fork as the Japanese man stares as hisjaw
drops in dismay.
@@duccline thanks for the explanation. thanks so much 😊
@@heinzmustard7267 no problem honey
Even the most infamously unoriginal styles, my example will be the Nine Circles style, can be taken in a unique way, like in Auditory Breaker, for having a unique style overall, or Metalface's 1.9-styled Nine Circles levels, which do such a good job of syncing up gameplay and the song that it hinders difficulty a little, not to mention the desaturated pallette that goes well with the 1.9 style.
Auditory breaker can't really be considered circles. Bausha vortex, rainbow circles, ultra paracosm would have been better examples. Just dropping this here, as some people will whine about "oooooh the gameplay isnt constantly flashing in AB"
Im glad that this has been brought up, as i have felt quite strongly about this for a while. The fact that people think you can't make a good level with a certain gameplay or deco style just because they happen to not like most levels in that style is just stupid, and ive had this problem with my layouts before. Sure, i may not be that amazing of a gameplay creator, but just because you see the style that most of my layouts use doesnt automatically mean its bad gameplay, bad gameplay comes from the actual level itself, not the style. Solid video, thanks for being literally the first person ive seen to bring this up.
eh, I disagree. Generic glow style levels have been done so much that I truly do not believe there is any more potential for interesting or creative levels in that style. So i'd say it's fair to say glow style is boring and uninspired.
If a glow level is actually good, i'll definitely praise it as an exception, but in general, we can't squeeze out much more creativity from that style in this current update.
I also think it's perfectly fair to not like a style because you've never seen it executed well. Which is not to say you can't change your mind once you do see it done well.
i understand your argument, but this is a result of a problem i have seen: making the definition too specific to allow for much creativity. if you don't make a glow level in the way that much of the community sees glow, it will likely be seen as another style. i'm pretty sure this isn't a problem that pops up much, but it is a problem nonetheless.
Everyone has their own taste
Wulzy
@@Cahrssomething Blob lizard
@@ferretive ferret
@@Cahrssomething Blob lizard
Me: sees norkbork’s video
Also me: *p o p c o r n t i e m*
Zub2Me
@@richardcovington7323 bruh
Me: *sad cuz i don't have popcorn :(*
tiem
As always, a great vidya that's interesting to watch, unique and offers a new perspective, as well as being very well edited. Good job! :D
I completely understand this. I myself primarily make experimental gameplay, and many people hate these levels because they aren't clicksync or memory based gameplay. Experimental gameplay takes advantage of my bizarre ideas for GD, and I find that this video really clicked with me. It makes sense and is very well written for a RUclips video. Thank you so much dude.
i really love this kind of videos from you, i think it'd be cool to have a video addressing the issue of gd's reputation as a bad mobile game, that might just be my friends but im still looking forward to more of these videos
Great video bro, road to 12k Keep it up!
Once again, another incredibly well-made video, and unlike on the Cybernetic Crescent video (which I understood and accepted all of your arguments but I still enjoy it for what it is), I agree with all of your points here. For me personally, while I do accept the existence of styles in gameplay and deco, all a level needs to do to get a thumbs up from me is to look cool, no matter what style it’s in. I personally don’t have a reason to complain as long as a level is better-made than Conical Depression.
This reminds me of a belief that I carry around in regards to filmmaking. While it’s not the same thing as Stylistic Prejudice and is not nearly as divisive what you just covered (at least to my knowledge), I get the feeling from a few people that I talk to that many think an artistic choice of filmmaking (Live action, cartoons, anime etc.) is superior to others. This mainly stems from people who seem like they only choose to watch anime rather than other styles. Now, I don’t have anything against anime. Anime is NOT the only genre that receives this special treatment either. Sometimes I feel like Live-action films are appreciated way more than animated ones. This can also go the other way: some are annoyed by the success of anime and choose to boycott it, which is just as close-minded.
I’m going to cut myself off there since I’m talking way to much about this topic on a video it isn’t even relevant to. But I brought it up since Stylistic Prejudice extends way past GD. Keep up the amazing content Norkbork!
I do agree. Its really unfair when exerimental layouts and just layouts in general to be put in high regard
amazing logic near the end here by nork
"Just because you've never seen a good level a specific style doesn't mean the style is bad"
I've been a memeber of this community since 2016, and I've seen the hating on NC levels, Red hell themed extreme demons, "generic" style levels, modern levels, the "is god eater or woodkid better" community split, all the MC megacollab dramas coming from them being "badly decorated" ( yet we still have tartarus as #1 and is praised LUL ) and on and on and on. People want to hate on different things just because of herd mentality. The problem is not really stylistic prejudice, but the lack of thinking on one's own.
When one thing gets created, it blasts into the center of attention, everyone will create in that style ,and whern we finally get more levels, they get boring, and people are starting to hate on it. It has been always the case with art, and not just GD. If some people like something, the tend to be blind to new things, too. Look at rock music. It had it's golden age in the '80s, and people are now talking about it being "dead". Rap and pop are the two most popular genres, and they are being praised and hated just because they are popular. Or I can talk about the "gothic" times almost a 1000 years ago, where people were building in a style, and when we came into a later age we gave it the name which literally translates to "barbaric". Or look how it's become a trend to hate on minecraft back in the early 2010's, now it's a trend to hate fortnite apparently. It has always been like this, and whether you like it or not, people will not change in a snap of a finger. I completely agree with being open minded, but unfortunately, I don't agree with holding everything to equal levels.
When you look at the situation here, you also have to look at why are certain levels being praised above others. Even though we are all different, there will always be something that generally attracts more people than other types of that thing. Though "herd mentality" is a key role here, the very reason it can manifest is because the majority genuinely like it. Effect levels feel more "human" apparently, but hey, what do I know. But take a step back. Is this really a problem? Is the majority of people resonating with something more than another thing a problem? No. Trends are not a problem and they never were. Things are getting praised to a degree they are because they are popular. Unequality is caused by trends and that is completely fine. Don't get me wrong, no genre is bad, all genres can have creativity, all of them can be enjoyable, but they are not created equal. On the level of the individual they truly are equal, because you decide what you like. But in the big picture it's not even close. And that is NOT a problem.
There is no bad thing in praising something over another thing, because it will succumb to time like everything else and something will replace it. I like speedcore levels, but most of the community doesn't. I like dubstep, people are hating on it. But I was one of the hated minecraft players back in the day when it was super popular. I have the popular things I like, but I have my own nieches aswell. Everyone is like this, and where everyone meets other people is trends are being born. And that thing will get remembered, while each individual nieche won't. And that is fine. Is disregarding other genres bad? Yes. Is one genre being generally held to a height bigger than another bad? No.
It's human nature to follow the leader and criticize those who don't. No matter where it happens, that sentiment reigns true.
that layout of your seems really fun, I tapped my desk to it and had a blast :D
"watch this video in its entirety."
Been doing that for months, so can do sir!
awesome video, these sre thoughts ive had for so long and im glad that someone finally talks about the bad generalization and how it hurts the community
Hey, modern/effect creator here. Here are my thoughts:
First of all, I think creativity is one of the most important aspects of a level. I find it hard to enjoy a level that doesn’t have unique ideas, which is why I’m not really a fan of glow style (not design style as a whole, but the generic glow levels). They tend to have boring colors and uninteresting designs, but there have to be some exceptions. I personally prefer those kinds of levels you named in the beginning of the video because they put creativity first, especially para, who made like half of the levels on that list.
I think the value of a level should be based on its quality, not its style, as well. This is based on personal taste for me, and if people don’t have the same taste, that’s fine, but my main problem with the creating community is that people dismiss a level as being part of a certain style. I guess what I’m saying is that not all levels have to be treated equally, but style should not play a role in how a level is treated.
A few more high quality design megacollabs that you could have mentioned that are main list demons: Calculator Core, Visible Ray (which I think is criminally underrated, as inconsistent as it is), The Yandere (same), Ouroboros, Dark Flare, Molten Gear, npesta asc- I mean Altered Ascent, Ethereal Artifice, etc.. Oh and don't forget the best level in recent memory, Sedulous, is design style, though it it neither megacollab nor list demon...
Also, I really think people hate on the red hell style more than it deserves. There are lots of levels using it that look very good. The hate is just fueled by the number of low quality hell style levels that happen to be hard enough to be on the demon list. And I think this is because the kind of people that make low quality hell style levels are generally doing it because they want the next big list demon, not realizing that they are guaranteeing their level will flop. But there are a lot of red hell style levels out there are that are quite good looking - the demon list is just not a good place to look for those.
Great video as always
Very good video norkbork really like these videos
can you shoutout Spinach GD? he has beaten many extremes with his hardest as Wasureta with about 100 subs.
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I think your points are very well said. I completely agree.
Honestly I've thought about this alot and it's cool that someone finally made a video on it.
bass cave style of gameplay is somthing were not talking about
1.) The reason people hate a lot of design megacollabs is that they were very prevalent in early-mid 2.1, when levels were of a lower quality. This style has dominated a lot of the big eventful releases. It's like supply and demand. The supply of these design megacollabs has increased to the point where the demand for them has dropped. Experimental effect levels like Cold Sweat are fresh and more memorable due to their novelty. Design levels will naturally have a harder time standing out from the competition because of the volume of 2.1 design releases. It's natural that people grow tired of these design levels. It's not fair to dismiss them as bad because of their style, but there isn't really a way to fix the natural progression of community preference.
2.) I don't really like the use of "megacollab" in "design megacollab" as a style, because megacollabs are more of a process than a style. Experimental levels tend to only have a small number of people working on them, while design levels often become megacollabs (at least in popular releases). There are effect megacollabs and design solo levels (design solo levels have gained a poor reputation because of the war on "generic levels" back in 2.0), but a lot of extreme demons are design megacollabs. Extreme demons gather a lot more attention, so megacollabs seem much more common than they actually are. Megacollabs usually lack the directed creative vision of a single person, and often become jumbles of disorganized parts. Solo levels, on the other hand, give a single creator control of more subtle, full level spanning qualities like theming and progression. These qualities set solo levels apart from megacollabs in a lot of ways, which is why the association between design levels and megacollabs harms the reputation of design levels. Megacollabs have a lot of problems and it's much more difficult to create great megacollabs than it is for a good creator to make a solo level (levels like Artificial Ascent are key exceptions, but do represent the potential of good megacollabs). There's also the fact that a creator has to care a lot more about a solo level or a small collaboration (The Majority of Cold Sweat was created by no more than five people if I remember correctly). A creator's investment in a megacollab is significantly diminished because of their small role, while the host has the difficult job of managing the project.
3.) Every style has its benefits and drawbacks. Effect levels stand out from even each-other, but lack detail to put emphasis on the effect, and they can also hurt people's eyes. Design levels look great in still images, but a lot of detail is lost in parts with higher speed (I never see anyone talk about this but I can't really appreciate the intricate designs in core levels when the entire thing is moving at 4x speed). I understand that this falls into the application of styles, but it still represents an inherent drawback to a style. Art levels are very impressive and look great, but you have to either sacrifice block design or readability to properly showcase art in a level. Levels that incorporate art into block design become difficult to read. Modern levels work great at high speeds and are easy to read, but the default portals and orbs stick out and clash with the aesthetic. A lot of creators try to fix this with custom orbs and portals, which makes the level harder to read. (I have had to practice a lot of more modern levels entirely because of "is that weird diamond shape an orb or a decoration?" and it gets annoying if the level doesn't have the option to turn custom objects off). My point with this longwinded list is that what styles you like come purely from what you value in a level. People who place emphasis on the importance of gameplay will favor clean design and modern levels, people who value originality will gravitate to effect levels, and people who enjoy art will praise art levels. This also applies to gameplay, but you don't want to read my ramblings on that. I agree with your point that it isn't to label an entire style as "bad," but preference is a natural part of art appreciation.
4.) Diverse preferences benefit the community with a variety of styles. The natural market of levels will create a satisfying subdivision of levels to appeal to any type of niche. Close minded people exist and do harm the community, but creators do not make levels for blind haters. They make levels for their own communities who appreciate them. I don't really see this as a fixable problem on the community side, but I do think that it is important to support creators and help them differentiate between blind hate and constructive criticism. Personally, I think that the bigger picture is that the continued specialization of creating styles has fantastic benefits but also creates problems that we have to discuss (like your videos do). This point isn't really a counterargument or a response to your video like the other ones, but it's a thing I guess.
5.) I don't actually have a fifth point, I just like the number five as a nice round number. I'll just put a dumb thought here instead of anything relevant. Does anyone else notice that as a single update goes on, levels trend from more effect levels at the beginning of an update to more design ones near the end? I think this is because new features allow for interesting effects to be made, but when those ideas run dry, a more natural progression of design takes its place. I don't have any evidence of this by the way.
Anyway well-written video as always. I'm going to take a nap now. Sorry I wrote a novel in your comments section
TL;DR
1.) people get tired of overused styles and that's just a thing we have to deal with
2.) megacollabs are cringe (sometimes)
3.) every creating style is bad at something
4.) I just rambled a bit for this point honestly
5.) Invest in Dogecoin
Although I agree for the most part, prefering one style over another is completely fine. I do not think expecting an effect level to be better than a design level is wrong. However failing to understand that other styles can be good is wrong.
I’m not a huge fan of modern styled levels like Acu because they are mostly just colours and movements with no backgrounds.
This video is one of your best. Your history videos are good and all, but sometimes it's nice to hear your more controversial topics. As soon as I saw the thumbnail I was exited to watch it, partially because it's you and all your videos are good, but also because I have never seen this issue formally addressed in a video format and I wanted to hear what you had to say about it. And I agree with everything you said; it really gets on my nerves when people just write off entire styles as unoriginal, uninspired and boring just because of bad experiences with that particular theme, and automatically assume that any "unique" level is instantly a masterpiece. While a lot of design levels are unoriginal, a lot of "generic" levels can also be original and great levels, such as Napalm and Generic Wave. Also, just because a level is unorthodox or uses something that's never been done before doesn't mean that it's good. I've never really cared for Strange Boxes or Want Me and I don't think that Cold Sweat is as good as people say it is, but I guess that's just my opinion. However, you are very right in saying that not every Experimental/Effect level is a masterpiece and not every Design/Glow level is generic trash. What you say about gameplay prejudice is also correct; just because a layout is unique doesn't mean it's creative or good, (Diamond Blade for example) and not every flow, sync or fast-paced level is uninspired, it grinds my gears when people just assume that any level with speed changes was designed by a five-year-old or that sync and flow based is generic. Both types of gp can be boring and bad, but also creative and good. Some styles I have never seen a good level that uses them, but I admit that they can technically be good, I just haven't found one that is yet. A level's quality does not depend on which general style it uses, but how that style is applied, in things like whether or not the song that it is used creates an appropriate atmosphere for that gp or deco style, design and attention to detail. I always watch your videos as soon as I see them because I know they'll be great, but this one really stands out for me as one of your best works.
You know, when I watched the problems with the creating community video, I didn’t understand. But this time, I get your points, and I have a easier time of understanding and agreeing
Good video :^)
My man NorkBork still hitting us with amazing content let’s goooooooooooo.
I think you come up with some good arguments overall, however I still disagree on some certain parts, so here is my part of the discussion! Sorry for the long post, but hopefully it makes sense. :)
Regarding the whole "Are you able to say that you dislike an entire creating style just because you haven´t found a level of your liking yet" argument, I would like to propose a metaphor for my explaination of my stand on this:
Let´s think "Pineapple on Pizza", the age old discussion, some people like it, some people hate it, almost everyone has some sort of opinion about it, and lastly what can be considered the objective truth to this? (If there is any)
In my opinion there isn´t an objective truth to whether of not pineapple on pizza is a good thing, for me it boils down to multiple factors. 1: Does the person in question enjoy pineapples on other foods? 2: Does the person enjoy pineapples on pizza? And lastly 3: Does the person in question even enjoy pineapples at all?
All these questions can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no" for the most part. Some people will like pineapples in all the mentioned ocations, and some will only like them in certain ones. These preferences are purely subjectical, meaning they are a unique and personal choice presumably made both in the subconscious and conscious part of the mind (This explains why some of us really cant explain why we dislike some certain foods, or like others). From a biological standpoint, this is to a degree based on preferences, which again is based on how our tastebuds perceive food. The perception of taste can definitely change with age and time, (as our taste of a level´s deco, and style can as well), and like you mentioned yourself, taste preferences can be altered after more exposure to a certain thing, including food, music, style and more.
Where I disagree with you, is that it is also evident that some people, regardless of they exposure to a certain thing, in some situations will proceed to dislike that certain thing. In our example, a person that would have said that they dont like pineapples in general, would never have come to the conclusion that they like pineapples on pizza (option 2). Because of the initial dislike of pineapples, as a whole, it is simply impossible for them to enjoy pineapples, regardless of the way they are being presented (neither does it matter how well the pizza is cooked / how well that certain style is executed in a level).
Furthermore I feel that it is important for us to allow people to enjoy what they like to enjoy. It is true that we should make the point that one bad experience (serving of a dish, song of an artist) cant be used as an argument for a general distaste of that said thing (the meal, the artist as a whole, the style and so on). However we should also, in my personal opinion, accept the fact that people´s preferences are they own preferences. One should never feel the need of having to persuade others into liking what they enjoy themselves, even if the argumentions of the opinions from the opposing person may seem useless or empty of logic, as explained earlier, sometimes it is simpy not possible for us to tell why we like or dislike certain things.
To end this of, I once again agree with you, that one cannot argue for the sake of others, therefore saying "This creating style is objectively bad" is a flawed argument. (Since it is impossible for us to know what others consider good, without asking them) On the other hand I believe your proposed arguement (23:53) That we shouldnt allow people to dislike certain genres solely because they havent encountered a level of their liking, is just as bad. Maybe it is true that these people someday will find a level of that category that they actually do enjoy, but for the meanwhile they are still allowed to have their opinion, their taste, since a subjective argument simply can´t be bested by another subjective counterargument.
okay this comment is awesome. Its so good that i had to reply to it 2 years after it was made just to say that.
@@r0021 Almost completely forgot about this one. Haha I probably went a bit overboard with the length of the explanation, but I still stand by my points, thanks!
I've acted with stylistic prejudice against flow in the past. The main reason for me doing so is me being met with a lot of toxic people from that side of the community, especially the ones who think themselves superior to others. I haven't seen such a thing in many other communities, and because of it I eventually grew to dislike the style as a whole. Though I have recently tried to be more open minded and even use some of the aspects of flow layouts in my own creations, as my current beliefs are that you can definitely combine multiple different styles to create an even better layout than ever.
TL;DR: I believed flow gameplay was bad because of the people and not the style.
Yay! New video!
Why are 90% of your shout-outs Cold Sweat victors lmfao
Magic
Welp time to drop Cognition…
@@twinnt
Wait did I just find an underrated god player that norkbork didn’t shout out :O
@@Cahrssomething My Cognition run is by far the easiest part of the level. If I get past 50 on a top 10 extreme, I think I’ll maybe be worthy of a shoutout. On top of that, I don’t upload consistently. Maybe I’m pretty good, but I don’t think I deserve a shoutout yet ;)
Very good video as usual, keep it up 🤝🔥
I personally really enjoy levels of every kind of style, but only if their execution is actually good.
nice! i never reallly had prejudice for styles of deco, but im not a fan of the "generic layout" style. I shall try my best to fix my ways. great video :)
Nork, I think this video is a very fascinating one. Mainly for the fact that I find the topic to be very present in our community. Most of your points are very valid, and I definitely agree with you. There are one or two things I do want to mention though.
For deco, I feel that the dislike of styles tends to come from the personal experiences of people when viewing or playing said levels. The influence people have on the community also affects the way other people perceive a level to be, and in turn, the general style. I understand that you distinguish that disliking certain levels as different than disliking certain styles, and I completely agree. The community should take a step back once and a while in order to see the creativity as a whole. But, most of the distaste for certain styles I believe comes from player’s dislike of levels in the styles, which is where social media comes in and spreads the ideas through the community.
Similarly, gameplay also has interesting reputations. I personally feel that speedcore gameplay is too harsh on the finger, which is my personal opinion. I think personal opinions should not be discredited either here, and should be accepted as well though. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t like your layout. I feel that it’s very cool and creative. One should be able to express their creativity in any way they desire.
I think part of the distaste for different styles is directly influenced by RobTop himself, and his rating standards. For instance, levels that are design themed, or have odd gameplay tend not to be rated quickly or are only featured instead of rated epic, which definitely affects the attention the level gets in-game (as per my personal experience). But, then again, Rob’s rating standards are consistently very odd.
I would like to take a second to reflect on myself. I used to make very spammy gameplay (you might remember from when we were going to make a Falling Mysts layout). I took your comments to heart a bit, and realized I should branch out a bit more, and improve my gameplay style. I feel as if I was able to adapt and learn from working with you, and seeing the influence from around the community as well. By the way, I’d love to collaborate again one day if you’re up for it, as I do feel that I have become a stronger creator.
One bit of criticism I have for you is about your video editing though. I’d recommend to put levels that you are talking about in the video to play at the time you are talking about them, as the video lacks context for those who don’t understand the full picture. I’d also recommend to avoid a bit of repetition in your scripts, as well as avoiding making light of how people probably won’t agree with you. I understand that people won’t agree with you, but I think that it’s a big deterrent to hear that. If people don’t want to watch the video because they don’t agree with it, that’s their problem, and they should be able to choose wether they want to watch it or not, as it is your opinion that you are sharing (which is extremely valid by the way, as ALL opinions should be).
Anyway, I know it’s a long response man, but I’d like to end this on a good note. You did an excellent job with this, and I do think there’s some food for thought here. I’d love to hear what other people say in this comment section also, as I’m sure there are some great arguments too. Anyway, awesome job Nork, keep up the great work my friend, and just know that I’m not going anywhere, I’ll always be here to watch and love your videos man. Hope you are well! :D
I'm gonna comment on your point with speedcore gameplay. If you think that speedcore gameplay is "too harsh on the finger" AKA spammy, then you apparently don't know what you're talking about. For the most part, well done speedcore gameplay has equal or less clicks than any other type of gameplay. I've seen a countless amount of people base their opinion of speedcore gameplay on the amount of clicks which I've never seen that argument be supported in any way. Yes, it may LOOK spammy, you gotta pay attention and realize that there's not as many clicks as you think. Also, there's a difference between good, well done speedcore and horrible speedcore made by someone that doesn't know what they're doing. Speedcore gameplay is very different to build compared to any other type of gameplay because you focus much more on the click patterns and intensity, and this is coming from someone that has built a lot of speedcore gameplay over the years and knows how to make it fun. I've been in the gameplay community since 2018 and I was once known for my speedcore gameplay, so don't think I'm some random guy hating on your opinion. While I may not agree with your opinion because it seems very unsupported and senseless, I try not to be harsh towards you unlike most of the community. So from now on, I suggest doing your research before giving your opinion on something. If you want some examples of creators that can do speedcore gameplay well, look at SukiYaki, Lagnugg, and Astat.
@@vypergd2364 hey man, I appreciate you responding. When I said “too harsh on the finger,” I didn’t mean that I didn’t like or appreciate speedcore. I personally am not a fan of it since I don’t spam well, and I get finger pain from playing it. I do a LOT of research for gameplay, and I do look at creators who do speedcore. I’ve also been a gameplay creator for a long time, and I respect your creativity for sure. All I meant was not for people to take offense to the fact that I personally have an opinion. Also, maybe it looked like I was stating a claim by saying it that way, but that is truly not what I meant about speedcore. I really just meant for myself, and how I feel while playing it. I personally think all my other arguments were pretty thought out, and I wouldn’t call it baseless to say that speedcore could potentially be painful to play for some people. I know a lot of players who get finger pain from gameplay, and while it’s not common, I get it sometimes from playing speedcore. Of course, I am always open to playing it; for example I frequently play Lagnugg’s part in Void Wave, and find it super fun. I guess sometimes it is manageable for me, if it’s not too fast. Anyway, that’s just my take, I really mean no offense to anyone in the speedcore gameplay community, and I look up to creators like you (and other speedcore creators) for inspiration with my own work. Hope you understand.
@@vypergd2364 also, I REALLY enjoy watching speedcore layouts, as they always interest me. Although it could also be classed as experimental, I really enjoy watching layouts like Nhelv by SrGuillester. I think the creativity in structuring and style is so unique sometimes, and I really enjoy watching that. Playing it would be a slightly different story for myself, as I probably wouldn’t enjoy it as much as watching it, due to the high cps, but it really depends on the layout.
NO WAY, I’VE HEARD OF CAVEMELV!
I mean really and truly style is just a style, and people shouldn't even perceive style as a form of creating and more so perceive it as a category of levels that have similar gameplay styles, decoration, etc;. When determining how good a level is to you, style shouldn't be in the equation because style essentially represents levels similar to the one you're looking at. It's as if saying this strawberry must taste awful because these other ones do too. While it doesn't mean the strawberry isn't awful, it doesn't mean it doesn't have the capacity to be good either. When determining how good a level is to you, you shouldn't be measuring it up against other levels, but rather focusing on what it does well and what it doesn't do well.
amazing content by an amazing person ❤️
awesome video like always nroke
Its time to end level racism
We did it Obama
We ended racism
such a good video. thank you
You are literaly the gd summoning salt and i love it :):)
damn, so subjectivity isn't valid anymore. i didn't realize this was an issue in the community
this sounds like something a design and speedcore creator would say
this video was very interesting!
I am not gonna lie but this situation is as good as unknown and u making this video made me really happy thanks
You and doggie are the best geometry dash content creators
amazing video
I used to hate the hell style during 1.9-2.0 because its SOOO overused after cataclysm bloodbath and sakupen hell came out but now I come to appreciate a lot of them and the hell series by sohn and stormfly are some of myfavorites!
17:45 the layout on screen looks really good and i want to see it decorated
"Mom, dad, I use a glow style."
"I have no son"
"I can't believe we've raised a normie!"
"Hey, that's offe-"
"WE MUST PURIFY HIM BY THE TEACHINGS OF ROBTOP 2:2!"
"Or send him to effect camp"
"Guys wait"
get it
prejudice
When geometry dash turns into politics.
and brainwashing
Ikr
Thank you for making this video, I hate how 90% of the community mindlessly hate on any type of glow or design style because it's "generic" or "unoriginal" thinking they are being open minded. No, you're not, a level doesn't have to be original to be good, and glow design is one of the most difficult styles to master
And also extreme demons, everyone thinks they have to hate extreme demons and call them all the same just because they can't play them, but when someone puts a toggle orb in a modern level it's apparently original gameplay. It's stupid, extreme demon have some of the most interesting gameplay in the game and have some of the best decoration quality, it's not fair that they are looked down upon for being hard
I’ve never heard a RUclipsr tell people not to watch their videos before
true af bro I agree
that's how nice and honest he is [or wants to sound]
"Please say "I don't like this style" instead of saying "this style is shit"
but it's a 28-minute video, wow
I think what makes people bias one particular style is that one has become so oversaturated that they feel exactly the same for said person. I think that gimmick layouts will be the next to experience this because of how many people are trying to capitalise of its popularity. But I personally heavily prefer certain styles of gameplay and as a result I am not likely to sit through playing them, unlike decoration where i can just watch a video. However, I appreciate where you are comming from, and the video was very well made.
About time cavemelv got a shout out, the dude is a nut
nut
Nice
I really hate to be THAT GUY but I honestly need to say this upfront, this is your worst video in terms of scripting.
For one we need to discuss how LONG it took for you to get to the topic at hand, as in, It's mostly filler. First of all, you don't have to say "Please watch my whole video before commenting" simply because knowing your audience, nobody is going to be like "OMG HOW DARE YOU THINK THERE'S PREJEDUCE >>>>>>>>:(((((((((((((((" Unless they are like 5 years old (In which case those comments are funny in my books). That with the shoutout mentioned took 2 minutes before the actual video topic.
The main issue with this video is FILLER, there's a lot of rambling with this video in particular. I don't think it should take 80 seconds to say why someone is so good at what they are doing. I honestly just think that over a minute on that kind of stuff is sort of... useless, and it makes me want to skip ahead being honest because I just want to get to the point. I know I SOUND impatient, but that's what I've learned about RUclips's audience.
Next is the actual introduction itself. It mainly just has to deal with there being a lot of fat in the video itself. I don't think a lot of the stuff mentioned in the intro was very necessary (Specifically recalling your problem with the creating community video since A) that was months ago so it can be assumed your opinions changed from then due to the time gap, and B) I Honestly don't think it makes much of an impact on this video.) Also there tends to be this thing where you repeat what you said like 30 seconds ago, along with your whole explanation that could have just been "I've been thinking about Stylistic Prejudice in the GD Creating Community for a long time, and it's become a more substantial issue. But what is Stylistic Prejudice in the GD Community?" That right there cut off like a good minute or two off the intro
if this is an essay there isn't really a clear Thesis to this (Woo English words AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA), That intro more than anything just left me with "Well this guy is gonna tell me about Stylistic Prejudice in Geometry Dash and why that's a problem, I guess" Like that intro didn't leave me very INTRIGUED by anything, nothing that hooked me personally. (Keep in mind I've been playing this game for about 6 years now, GOD I NEED TO GET A LIFE).
With defining the creating styles the issue is that it directly contradicts of heading straight into the topic. This section should have been shortened to mean "The decoration style means the style of level's decoration such as blah blah blah, and that also applies to game-play" And also should have been in the intro. This should have been moved somewhere else or removed entirely. I don't think that this video was meant for outsiders of the GD Community, and even then It feels like unnecessary padding. By the time you get to the point of actual argument, the video already reached past a 1/4 of it's running time. That's HONESTLY way too long before getting into your argument under any circumstance. That's a big reason why I've stopped making such long intros is well, to quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail, they just want you to Get on with it.
The main arguments of the stylistic prejudice feels like "Just because one design isn't that good to you, doesn't mean every level in that style is bad" (Though Para can honestly go FRICK himself for thinking anything that is 1.9 and before is not rate worthy because of there not being enough """MOVEMENT"""). Your personal story is fine. Maybe I would put it somewhere else in the video like the end or something. I feel like it would work as a transition which it sorta does. It also adds onto your argument with the decoration part but not really the game-play so IDK what that was on but whatever. Onto the next part
The gameplay argument is literally the same as the one before it "Just because a style is bland doesn't mean everything in that style is bad" But yet I feel like with gameplay it's a lot more touchy than that, simply because of the stigma that "Speedcore" and "Flow" gameplay have. They have it for a reason. Most of my friends believe it to be that it's painful to play. With someone who PROBABLY has early stages of Carpel tunnel, that is the case with me. People who hate X kind of gameplay, typically won't like that style of gameplay. It's just not for them. It mostly is just a repeat of the section beforehand, and I feel like that as a result, it should have been shorted.
The counter arguments are baffling to me. The first one just left me confused of just the same thing and the second one was just "Be more open to styles that you don't like" which is easier said than done and honestly I have no clue what's being argued at that point. Also the whole "I know people will disagree with me and ignore me and that is a sad reality" You're just insulting and calling people who disagree with you (Intentionally or not) dumbasses. At least that's what I got from it. We can all be "OPEN" to certain levels and styles, but it doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism. I can look at levels without hating it for it's style, but because the level failed at what it was going for. My criticisms for why I say levels like Killbot are hot garbage, is not because of it's style, but because it failed at the style it was going for.
It feels like you are preaching to the choir here and it just feels like "If you agree you're cool, but if not, IDK what's wrong with you."
That's it from your scripting portion and in regards to it, it left me confused, bored, and just flat out uninterested in the topic at hand. It is a good video topic with a lot of potential, but I feel like what you did here did not do this topic justice.
BUT we need to talk about your visual editing.
(Note when I say video editing I am referring to the visual editing of the video)
Your video editing is nearly non-existent and while that would have been acceptable back in 2017 when Sea's videos were arguably even worse in terms of video editing, it is nowhere near as acceptable nowadays. I don't know what the point is of your videos being meant to be listened to the background or actually WATCHED, but there is nothing there for me to physically watch with my eyes except other people's gameplay. But at this point, it feels like a podcast, and not like a video(Which is meant to be a visual medium). Normally I wouldn't care about this sort of thing since there are a couple video types that are mainly listened to in the background, but commentary videos have evolved way past this style of using other's people's gameplay that is vaguely relevant to the task at hand.
In one point of the video you mention a bunch of levels that are considered "Cool" by the GD Community, with NO representation of said levels on screen. Not even a glimpse of the level itself. I didn't even know any of those levels besides cold sweat. It is the job of the commentator to provide visual examples of levels (At least here) to the viewer. At that point I was just lost, and was only able to get the Cold Sweat and Aleph Zero arguments because I actually know what those levels are.
Everyone else in the GD Commentary community has also stepped up their game (Including myself) in regards to making their videos being watched instead of being put in the background. Myself, MatMart, and Flaaroni specifically have started to ramp up how we edit our videos. I'm not expecting Klaux Levels of editing, or NEW Flaaroni levels of editing(simply because of how much time it takes), but I expect something, really anything, besides irrelevant background gameplay to the topic at hand besides a couple levels that is kinda/sorta relevant, but then there's NOTHING else in terms of interesting editing besides the very occasional text. This is a problem that not only I have, but many people in the GD Commentary community have been silent on because of fear of backlas since most people seemingly don't care about this even though it's the only thing separating GD Commentators at this point.
Especially since you are seen as the pinnacle of GD Commentaries, I feel like your editing doesn't really, support that when smaller channels who don't know the algorithm (Like myself YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY) have more interesting edits along with solid scriptwriting. I know this sounds like jealousy, but I'm just more disappointed because I've seen a lot of smaller channels ramp up their editing quickly after hitting a certain milestone (Klaux, Ender, MatMart, Flaaroni, Myself, etc.) and yet yours has stayed the same for months, even for a year probably.
I understand editing isn't the most fun thing in the world, but people who are in the GD Commentary community (all 10 of us lol) really want to see more from you, but we don't see anything in regards to your visual editing.
(Audio editing is fine I couldn't find any issues. Only issue I have is to please for the love of god please use other music besides Pokémon, I don't know use some of the spin off game music osts, like XD Gale of darkness? That's just a me issue though).
Your content is way better than the majority of crap that is in GD RUclips, but This video was just meh and I hate to say it, it's mediocre at best, and confusing at it's worst. Nothing ATROCIOUS, but nothing very interesting either.
I know I might of sounded pretty harsh but I have had these feeling about this for your content for a while now (at least the general point) and I just never had the time to see it. I'm not the one to ask for visual editing advice but eh whatever. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from, especially since this seems out of nowhere.
-Alferia
This was pretty bad to watch in its entirety. Also, I have to compliment the amount of writing you did because your comment is insane
@@twinnt I wrote this at like 2am
This is so hard to watch lmao the video says "this will be a quick to the point video" yet im 7 mins in and still hasn't gotten to any kind of point
Essay Andy
literally so based
tbh, you made quite a lot of fair points in the gameplay section. all gameplay styles are generally fine, as long as they arent too generic. additionally, gameplay ideas must be well executed and must be neat. good gameplay must be fun too! i just wished that many creators in the community dont stick to one single style but experiment with other ones too. some gameplay creators, especially, overuse the same gimmicks over and over again which makes their gameplay look boring to watch or play over time. it would be better if they tried new gimmicks, or tried out some new genres of songs to make gameplay with! i'd say a few good examples of these gameplay creators are Ouroix, Pixizkiel, Sukiyaki, St1ng, Vlexin, Uriun, Quadr, iBrah78, Hyp3rlink, ORte, Lagnugg, Jamscone, Muji, Kami, Cybertron, Xavell, MALCHIK, Xzer, Avi Lateo, SnowDrift, Almar and Rebix. if you havent heard of them before please give them some support since they're all underrated gameplay creators ^_^
We may have fond memories of Sea1997 but you can deny you are more thorough and just better.
Damn this is well made! I gotta agree tho completely. Let the deco speak for itself
lets gooo cavemelv :D
"A creation should not be detested or glorified because of its style"
- norkbork
i'll cite that quote in the future
Video summed up in 3 words: opinions are opinions
Dude, you are criminally underrated
And you're lawfully right
I 100% agree with this video, however this is a very idealistic take, as there will always be subconscious bias towards certain styles, I prefer modern to design, maybe that's just because of who I am at my core and I'm sure some people dislike how modern looks, and prefer something more experimental, they should not write off all modern levels though, obviously, and keep an open mind. I think that it's okay to prefer some styles over others, and if you dislike, lets say, speedcore gameplay because it hurts your fingers, that is an entirely reasonable stance. Basically what I'm saying is that I agree with all your points but I believe you neglected certain reasonable extenuating circumstances and also subconscious bias that comes as a side effect of being human.
I agree that people should not immediately say a level sucks, simply due too the the style it
uses. I used too do this to modern style levels since it makes objects look unrecognizable, however not all levels do that and it made underappreciate levels. I don’t think that means you should treat all levels equally though, equal does not always equal fair but you should keep an open mind.
havent seen it but already know its good
14:01 holy shit thats awesome
Imagine this conversation.
P1: I don’t like chocolate. Chocolate tastes bad.
P2: How can you say all chocolate is bad? There is certainly some bad chocolate, but just because it’s chocolate doesn’t mean it’s automatically bad. You should be more open minded about chocolate.
Such an interaction sounds analogous to your argument. It’s absurd to harp on the person who doesn’t like chocolate and tell him to be more open minded and
less prejudicial about his taste. How is your argument, then, less then or even not at all absurd?
Bad comparison; GD levels are much more diverse than just chocolate, lol
I understand it directly even the video did not end
I can probably keep an open mind for core deco but I’m never going to like noctas/sohns hell level gameplay
This applies to the core style a lot as well. Not saying everyone says that they don’t like it just because it’s core, but a lot of people do.
I love prismatic haze and its gameplay, but i usually dont like that type of sync based layout because in a way, it doesn’t take as much thinking/playing the game. There are some clicks in p haze in where i don’t even know what gamemode i am in, i just click to the music. I think gameplay is usually better when you can’t 100% just click to the music (which you can’t in ph) because its more of a gd feel to me(?) such as flying on flyings merits, instead of on musics merits?
While I agree a lot with this video it's really hard for me to not give in to stylistic prejudice at all. Especially for gameplay. I am extremely bad at gameplay types like speedcore and memory so oftentimes I avoid playing those levels which is a shame for the creators. After watching this, i tried out some levels of that style and had a great time with one of them. Thank you for this wonderful video norkbork
I’m definitely guilty in the game play Area especially memory game play but I don’t know about decoration styles I can’t really think of anything maybe I will later but besides that awesome video I enjoyed it
I’m going to guess that the reason some styles are held above others constantly are just because of how memorable they feel and how they are remembered. This can either happen with how often they appear or just personal experiences with said style.
If a style of creating (eg. glow or modern) becomes used often and becomes the norm, people will eventually stop finding them special, and pay less attention to them. After all, if you experience the same thing over and over again, you eventually just become numb to it. Perhaps one’d find said style boring or tasteless just because of how common it is, despite the effort put into it by the creator. You’d eventually stop remembering levels with similar styles as fondly or as clearly and as such would remember it more negatively. Perhaps the fact that it is common will drive the idea that the style is lazy or easy to make.
Conversely this is how unique levels are unconsciously remembered and placed on higher pedestals than other styles. They are something new (most of the time) and will remain in one’s memory for a longer time as a consequence, just as how one’d remember any first experience, like their first kiss. For similar reasons mentioned above, unorthodox styles will, whether anyone likes them or not remembered better and more fondly than other styles.
For example, we shall take two levels from early 1.9. This may be outdated, but they will represent two sides,
1. An brand new style
2. A very typical early 1.9 level
just to see which one automatically has a higher “status”, if you will. One is Revolution by Funnygame, and the other is Cosmic Dreamer by Viprin and Minesap. All of them are 1.9 lvls made by famous creators, yet one is viewed more positively than the other, just because of the “uniqueness”, an unintended consequence.
Another reason just might be from personal experience which they then subconsciously apply to the entire style. Most people for example, would define glow and modern styles by the featured levels list, which most of the time are seen to be boring due to their low difficulty. Perhaps even the decoration on some levels they have seen with said style may be unimpressive, leaving lasting impressions. This applies to GP styles too, as more common demon GP styles like speedcore, flow and sync are viewed more negatively, either due to prior experience or otherwise. Unorthodox styles on the other hand are seen as this brand new thing, bringing new stuff so naturally many would not have experienced it before and as such would not have much negative experiences with it which gave other styles their reputation for players.
Eg: Can’t exactly give examples since it’s really personal experience at this point
If some paragraph had any wonky structures, I did this while in bed without too much care into structure so pls forgive me
if we never hated disco after its first year of being on radio, we would still have disco songs topping the charts.
if hollywood kept making the same movies and we kept watching them, we would never be challenged
the reason people are getting sick of certain styles is because they want something new. of course we can still appreciate the polish that the better design levels have, but eventually we're gonna be bored of that and every thing else we have right now and start not only appreciating but making more of what the community made in the first years of gd