The Pilots Who Didnt Try Hard Enough | ATI 805
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2022
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This is the story of air transport international flight 805. On the 15th of february 1992 an air transport international DC8 freighter was on the ground at seattle tacoma international airport. The plane was loaded up and took off ahead of schedule. The flight to toledo was normal, nothing out of the ordinary. As the first officer flew the DC8 towards toledo they picked up a bit of precipitation on their weather radar. It was at level 1 or 2 nothing too bad and nothing that the pilots or the plane couldn't handle. The pilots up until this point in their approach had been in instrument meteorological conditions, this meant that they had to fly the plane by the instruments and not by visual cues. But this isnt a problem on any modern airliner. At 3:12 am the controller at Toledo cleared the plane to land. It was starting to get a bit stormy in the cockpit as well. The captain was not really happy with the way the first officer was flying this plane. “He said things like “If you're gonna fly that slow you're gonna need more flaps” “Still don't have enough flaps for this speed, add power, you're not on the glide path bring it up to the glidepath” “You're not even on the effing localizer at all”. To say that the captain wasnt satisfied with the flying of the first officer would be an understatement and a few minutes later the captain had enough. He said “Okay we’re gonna have to go around, were not anywhere near the localizer”. First lets get some terminology out of the way, Think of the localizer as the extended centerline of the runway, if youre on the localizer it means that youre lined up with the runway perfectly. The glideslope is the proper path of descend for a plane landing on the runway. If youre on the localizer and on the glidepath it means that youre positioned correctly to land on the runway.
As the pilots put flight 805 into a climb the controller wanted to know why the pilots were going around, the captain told the controller that they had lost the localizer in the clouds so they were going around for attempt number 2. The controller soon had the plane on the base leg and was vectoring the pilots to intercept the ILS. The second time around the pilots were still struggling a bit to intercept the localizer. But at 3:21 am the pilots were cleared to land again and the pilots asked the controller about the surface winds. The winds at the runway were at 10 knots and at 100 degrees but at their altitude the winds were at 180 degrees and 35 knots the captain did not like this at all he said “ "13 degrees of left drift...man, they really got a bad effing situation here.
Right out of the south direct effing crosswind giving you twelve degrees of drift right now” it looked like they'd have to contend with some strong winds on their way down to the runway.
In the cockpit the the ground proximity warning system and the sink rate warnings went off multiple times and the first officer was riding the throttle to get the plane back on the glidepath, the captain said “Push the power and get back upto the glidepath” But attempt number two looked like it wouldnt work out, so this time the captain took control of the plane and performed another go around. But as the flaps and the gear were retracted the plane started to bank to the left. The captain said “what's the effing matter here” , in the cockpit the warnings were going off all over the place. The flight engineer was asking the captain to pull up but the captain could not recover. Flight 805 crashed about 3 miles north north east of the runway. None of the 4 people on board survived and 13 people on the ground were injured.
Flight 805 had crashed on its second go around attempt in moderately bad weather. To see how bad the weather was the investigators talked to two crews who had landed in toledo before flight 
Наука
It is possible that the captain robbed the first officer of confidence by his earlier comments. That could explain the first officer's lack of aggressiveness.
I think this is exactly what happened.
You mean assertiveness , aggressiveness no. No pilot should be aggressive .
@@jimshelley8831
Maybe it's as simple as the pilot was major pissed. If you get angry enough, your focus may narrow.
Cause of accident:
BAD CAPTAIN
Please insert a new captain and press OK to continue.
@@jimshelley8831 I think they used the word "aggressive" in their comment because that is the exact word that the narrator used in the video, when talking about the first officer's lack of it.
Cockpit communication had broken down. The Copilot was hesitant to speak up or act as vigilant as he should have because the Pilot shut him down just minutes earlier. Definitely a CRM problem.
CRM proves itself again... But this was also one of the crashes that solidified CRM as a strategy to begin with.
Not again. Captains bullying their first officers has taken down at least three flights that I know of.
CRM?
“Crew Resource Management.” It’s a term used to indicate how well the crew is working together and how to get them working together as a smooth and competent team. It covers stuff like this, teaching the captain to treat his first officer well and build up his confidence rather than tear it down. It’s not just the captain though, modern CRM trains first officers to become more assertive and to even challenge or just plain take over if said captain is making mistakes that may endanger the aircraft.
It’s reversing decades of tradition of the captain being an unchallenged superior.
@@mikoto7693 Nice. Thank you for that excellent explanation!
The captain lost control of his emotions, then lost control of the plane. History repeating.
Lack of focus, and tunnel vision, and distracted with frustration. So focused on the go around he didn't pay attention to his bank angle.
The first officer being demoralised by the attitude of his captain means the blame is planted square on the captain, being the instigator for everything that went wrong.
Yeah
Exactly my feelings as well. Might well be, that the captain poisoned the atmosphere in the cockpit with his harsh words to the F/O said earlier .
Even if he was right, it's highly unprofessional to chew someone out like this. You are effectively killing collaboration and mentally reverting to single pilot ops...
The comments didn't seem overly personal though. I think the first officer being demoralized was a problem, but I think it was mostly due to his own poor performance in making the approaches. I would not be too harsh on this captain.
Tend to agree
@@GigsVT It's difficult to say without hearing the actual CVR to hear the tone of voice used by the captain. Sure, there were expletives used, but that's just normal speech pattern for some people and does not necessarily indicate an aggressive or angry mood (or that it would be taken that way). Note he also directed expletives toward the aircraft and the weather, which tends to indicate that it was not said in a personal, demeaning or aggressive way. Verbally pointing out deviations from the approach path and speed by the first officer is part of the captain's job as pilot monitoring. He was certainly willing to pass control to the FO as soon as he became aware that he had lost control, which would indicate that he had not lost confidence in the FO or was angry with him.
Damn, I remember this now. I'm from Toledo. The plane came down a couple miles west of where my dad was living at the time. Toledo Express is all cargo flights at night. The paper didn't tell us much beyond that the plane came down in a potato field. Thanks for doing this one, it really shed alot of light on things. MHO is that the situation desperately called for CRM.
Now i'm wondering why 13 people on the ground were injured in a potato field at night.
@@walt Something else the paper never explained. Quite apparently the plane also hit some houses and/or cars, in this very rural area. I hated that my dad lived that close to the fricken airport.
@@shariys1 I definitely understand about someone you love living near an airport.
We were living on the coast of NC. Living between 2 major military bases. Our home was 2 blocks from an airstrip for military training. There's a huge sign " Pardon our Noise, it's the Sound Of Freedom "
And loud..it was. Imagine fighter jets doing touch and Go. For hours. They were so low We'd wave at the pilot and yes.. he would wave back. Of course all in a split second..
I kinda miss it now that we moved..
Guess there was a lot of baked potatoes the next day... or french fries? Cuz the jet fuel would have cooked the potatoes.
@@RindaJane that's really cool. Id love to live near a air strip like that or a commercial airstrip.... or a train yard or something like that. I love watching big machines do stuff.
I was there in Toledo that fateful night. I flew a leg from KSJO to Toledo and arrived at 01:30 local. I was sitting in my company's crew room when this accident happened. The weather was not anything we weren't used to at Toledo. DC-8's can be a handful for newer pilots when hand flying. This one is on the Capt.
We need to go back on time about CRM, CRM was new in the 80’s or perhaps it even wasn’t implemented yet, and to a first officer complain to a captain or take over a Captain was basically impossible to think.
Yeah
Yes and no. CRM was developed in the late 70s. It was implemented by United Airlines starting 1981. By 1990, it was how they taught pilots in the US.
However, I'm sure there was a lot of ruffled feathers during the transition. Imagine a first officer who for ten years has never been able to speak up, finally trying to. And maybe the captain is a 'by the book' pilot, aka likely an army pilot turned civilian, so to him someone of lower rank can shove their opinions up their asses. Probably a lot of captains and first officers disliking each other.
So I can see even in 1992, a first officer being afraid to speak up if they are flying with a new captain, or one they've fought with before, or even a very stern one. The policies were there, but people who learned differently 30 years ago probably didn't want to change.
It always amazes me that CRM had to be designed and then implemented. Surely this system is just basic common sense? It definitely says a lot about the mentality of captains that they had to be instructed on How to Listen to Your Crew in an Emergency. How much of a bastard can one person be that FOs quietly sit and watch as their plane hurtles into the ground at 600mph?
@@philhughes3882 Given the proliferation of relationship therapists/books, communication seems to generally be something humans are *bad* at.
I'll also point out that several of the situations that lead to the development of CRM weren't so much "asshole captains" as general poor communication or task allocation. The Eastern 401 crash, an aggressive captain wasn't the problem, three guys focused on a burnt-out lightbulb and ignoring the rest of the plane was the problem. The United flight that crashed near Portland, the captain was oblivious moreso than aggressive, and the crew were dropping hints but not communicating clearly. Even the Tenerife collision, the KLM captain was *wrongly portrayed* as an asshole by some media, but it turned out that wasn't the issue - he was distracted by scheduling issues and there again, the crew did speak up but not aggressively enough. I think a lot of crew had a mindset at the time that a more experienced captain surely knew what he was doing and didn't need errors pointed out.
Tho yeah, in this case the captain sounds like a dick. That was a dude who needed some CRM training, or maybe a plain old reprimand.
@@philhughes3882 you’re absolutely right, but unfortunately common sense isn’t a flower that grows in everyone’s garden 😂
30 years ago CRM (Crew Resource Management) i.e. crew members speaking more diligently in the cockpit wasn’t as “strong” in the culture as it is today, everyone has an equal voice. Airlines in the last few years have been receiving “Upset Training” in the flight simulators where we are now being taught to aggressively handling the plane in an emergency situation “if” required. This did not exist in our training just a few years ago, let alone 30 years ago. Smooth on the controls, don’t spill the coffee.
Every accident is unfortunate, but it’s also a lesson written in blood that every aviator takes seriously, or should learn from and take seriously.
Always high quality presentations, which makes the refinements you’ve made over time quite subtle, but they definitely haven’t gone unnoticed.
@@iceberglettuce7259 my friend, you must be new here. A substantial percentage of the viewers here are qualified pilots. I’ve seen numerous thank yous from even the big boy airliner pilots.
@@iceberglettuce7259 Well you can start by working on your reading comprehension. My videos are about drag racing so I’m not sure what they have to do with this conversation. Are you mistaking me for the video author? Regardless, the real question is why post the cynical, passive-aggressive comment you did in the first place? (“Are you joking? Are you a qualified pilot??”)
Successful flight seems to be entirely involved with human teamwork. An impatient, irritated and perhaps impulsive captain doesn't encourage such an atmosphere. Tragic results well told. Thanks!
I’m just gonna say I didn’t like the captain one bit, and it didn’t sound like they’d got CRM down to a fine art. If I’d been the FO, I’d have been totally humiliated by the captain, which would have caused me to doubt my own abilities. It sounds actually like the FO really knew how to get the plane out of trouble, but had been browbeaten by the captain.
What’s really sad is that this is the third flight that I know of where the captain bullied his first officer into submission, who then makes mistakes and doesn’t get challenged.
Why didn’t the Captain just take control in the first place? That is a legal requirement under U.K. CAA rules, and likely similar under FAA regulations! If the Handling Pilot is not performing up to standard or not responding as he should, then the Non-Handling Pilot must assume control after three challenges to the Handling Pilot. This is to prevent an accident or incident due to Suspected Pilot Incapacitation! With regards to the suspected Attitude Director Indicator (ADI), or Artificial Horizon failure, the Flight Engineer (Second Officer) should have immediately cross checked both the Captain’s and the First Officer’s ADI Indications with the Standby Horizon/ADI or visual horizon if there was one, to determine which ADI was giving erroneous indications. He is in the best position to do this as he is seated directly behind the Pilots during the approach. Once the Captain’s ADI was confirmed to have failed, the data inputs/correct Data can be transferred to the Captain’s ADI from the First Officer’s ADI Data Source by means of a switch. Both ADI’s would then be operating from a single Data source, but at least they would Both be displaying the Correct Attitude Information. This action, together with the Captain taking control of the aircraft from the First Officer, would have undoubtedly prevented this terrible tragedy from ever occurring in the first place!
The ADI isn't the only instrument. During IMC you're not supposed to 100% focus on the ADI. You're supposed to cross-check with airspeed, altitude, etc.
Seems based on these incidents overall, for every emergency where the pilots do exactly the right thing and safely recover the aircraft, there are about an equal number, where at the end of the day pilot error is the culprit. I'm frankly surprised at that fact. Keep up the good work.
Lord... this is why training standard should be as high as possible.
Yeah
Very interesting, I used to fly for ATI. We discussed this and other incidents during our training.
Nowadays the pilots have post flight discussions in the flight deck while the pax are deplaning, or while filing paperwork later which is when the captain will voice his dissatisfaction with the first officer, right?
I think I heard somewhere it’ll be discussed then, and not while flying for exactly this kind of reason. I just wish I remember where I heard that.
I remember the crash like it was yesterday, was working at the Bax Toledo HUB that night. N794AL DC-8-63
I'm from India and frequently travel to Nepal. The aviation history in Nepal is littered with so many crashes primarily attributed to the mountainous terrain. In fact recently there was a crash on the sector between Jomsom (JMO) and Pokhara (PKR) which is being defined as a controlled descent into terrain where the pilot loses their bearings during the flight. Why don't you make some videos about the crashes in Nepal. I've hardly seen anyone covering these.
I really effin’ enjoy your presentations!
Several factors come into play here: spatial disorientation, lack of CRM and somewhat inadequate training. The first officer lost confidence in himself with the captain berating him like that IMO. Another great episode.
Arrogance is a cover for incompetence. Also, we all have different levels of safety. What I consider safe you may consider overly cautious annoying to one another. Even the best of the best can succumb to human emotions. The captains impatients caused his situational awareness to fail.
This one reminds me of the the British Capt Keys (waayyy before CRM) and all the ones where the societal culture of the pilots has the Capt browbeating the FO into submission to the point the guy doesn't even try to save himself (and therefore the plane).
Yeah there was another flight where the captain bullied his first officer intermittently during the flight and the investigators could hear the first officer becoming less responsive and withdrawing into himself on the CVR.
And then the captain makes a series of mistakes around landing and being put into hold by ATC and the first officer only weakly verbally challenged him a couple times. He didn’t actually take the controls to try to save the plane until six seconds before the plane crashed into a mountain.
The irony is that it was an Airbus. Although not intended to be used that way, the first officer could have pressed and held a button on his side stick that would have given him priority control. While it held down the aircraft would have ignored all the inputs made by the captain.
Captain Keys had a major argument in the BEA crew room, prior to his flight to Brussels. He was in conflict with most of his junior colleagues concerning possible strike action, still waters ran deep because he was not a popular man and disparaging graffiti was found on the table at the flight engineer's station on his aircraft papa India
Therefore it was theorized that the captain had become severely stressed, leading to wrong decisions being taken, and his junior colleagues were reluctant to challenge his command decisions. Also, he could have had a heart attack, the pain being enough to affect his judgement.
The problem is that in a spiral dive, pulling back just makes things worse. It is stunning when it happens and it happened to me. The NOISE! The altimeter unwinding in a blur; the revs over limit; the speed over Vne....."Power back to idle to reduce rate of descent. Roll wings level using ADI; PULL hard." Exult that you are alive, and pleasantly surprised I did not panic. I knew then that nothing would scare me as badly again.
The first officer could have used harsher inputs as described, but as you stated the training at the time never took these situations into account.
As for the DC-8 it was a surprisingly strong aircraft, equally surprising is the little known fact is that it was the first commercial aircraft to break the sound barrier on August 211961.
Does this video seem super dark to anyone else? I can barely see what's going on. Yeah, I know it's a night flight but this one is almost blacked out.
Yeah, he needs to boost the brightness of the sim footage to make the video more watchable (albeit it less accurate)
I agree - way too dark.
Glad it's not just me. Yep, it is really dark.
there are ways to speak to your crew and ways not too...as a fledgling FO many many years ago I flew with a very heavy handed captain...no matter what you did when flying was any good and he made sure you knew it...I hated him...one day landing in JFK on a windy, snowy, blustery night flight he was all over me on the ILS...I must have had 40 degrees crabbed due to the wind..I felt confident it was a good approach , broke out and on short final he took the airplane and we landed so hard I thought we busted the gear...he blamed me...years later as captain myself, I made sure NEVER to demoralize your FO like that , make positive and helpful comments to help the guy if he needs it....CRM didn't exist then, but I did finish up with that and hail it as a boon to airline safety
from my experience they're in small numbers but every airline has them!
Great video as usual 👌
Wow, that is one dark and murky video. I’ve never seen one of your excellent videos like this..
Love the vids man
I Also Love His Videos
My first thought was uneven icing on the wing. But I’d like to read the NTSB report.
This one really hits hard for me and brings back sad memories. This flight was leased by the now defunct Burlington Air Express. I was a flight load planner for them at Toledo Express and working the night that the flight went down as we were waiting for it to arrive. I was out on the ramp that night and I guarantee that the weather conditions and fog were much worse than they were made out to be in the investigation. That still doesn't excuse the poor performance of the flight crew or their failure to choose one of their alternates which I believe were CLE and DTW. Like so many plane crashes it was a tragedy that never should have happened and wouldn't have happened if the pilots had followed correct procedures.
Very bad CRM and overbearing Captain. Very sad indeed. It is not necessary to blow another man's candle out to make your own shine brighter.
Hey, great video! One note tho, as I live around the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, and literally everyone calls it SeaTac Airport (pronounced: see-tack). In fact, on flights ive been on coming in to the airport, the pilots over the intercom have called it Seatac airport.
So, I have lived a couple of miles from Toledo Express airport most of my life. I was fairly impressed throughout this video with the graphics. "Yeah, that's Eber Road, there's Route 20-A", etc. Until the last shot, of the plane landing. Not even close, guys.
Pilots often fly a little with a little less of the soft approach on cargo flights than they would on passenger flights. I can't really understand why the copilot wasn't pulling for his life at the end. It's very clear that terrible CRM was happening at hat time and I had assumed that it led to him not taking back the controls until too late, but once the controls were taken over by the copilot it makes no sense to me why he'd be holding back from trying everything possible.
It's certainly an interesting case and once again it's brilliantly presented here. During my younger years there was a periodical called Take Off that my father had all of and there was an accident investigation in each one that I would read through avidly. It started with a military jet obsession but grew into a love of all aviation and an understanding of things that went wrong and what changes were made as a result. These videos you make here are great for learning more about accidents I haven't heard of a lot of the time and I want to thank you for putting in the time and effort to this channel.
0:27 - I think at the time their weather radar Display went from 0 to 6. The higher the number, the denser the rain is. You really want to avoid flying through 5 and 6.
How much have simulators improved since then? I hope a crew in a similar situation today would be less likely to leave performance on the table because today’s simulators are better and/or because today’s trainers are better at presenting this kind of problem in the simulator.
Well put it this way. We all hear talk of CRM nowadays. Cockpit Resource Management. This flight crew needed time out away from each other. A toxic cockpit atmosphere. Recipe for disaster.
You know sounds like the captain was giving the first officer a hard time because he was getting incorrect readings, and only realized it when he took control and things started going wrong.
What is curious is that the captain would surrender command to his junior in what likely was perceived to be an emergency right after berating him.. Unless the captain had suffered some kind of evident apoplexy.. Like a stroke or perhaps a heart problem. Were there any autopsies performed?
I think the captain was so busy minding his first officer's performance that he was not in the proper frame of mind to do what needed to be done. Also changing over of control whilst attempting to land an aircraft is probably not the best idea.
Man, that Cap was toxic. Geebus
Sadly we will never know for sure why it happened
Nicely presented, I can’t wait for you to upgrade to X-plane though. Definite CRM problem in this flight this sort of situation is much rarer now.
the captain sounds like me when i'm tired and the flight i'm flying in MSFS starts messing up for no reason when i'm about to land
This happened in my town, I will never forget it, that airport is like 5 miles from me
I love all of your presentations.....totally awesome. However the picture on this video seems very dark and I tried to adjust my monitor but without any improvement. Please make a correction if possible. Thank you!!
9:58 "imbibed" means "drunk"as in "He imbibed the wine". The word you want, I think is "imbued".
10:49 "had went". They grammatically-correct version would be "had gone". A compound past tense requires the past participle. "Went" is the simple past and does form part of a compound verb.
Not everyone has English as their first language, so it's important to avoid local dialect if you want to reach such an audience.
night time gotta trust your instruments, glad pilots today train in get their instrument rating to rely on it and the errors of the human inner ear. once u have practice feeling disorientation u can watch for it and hopefully w proper CRM deal with it without crashing. usually doing nothing returns to lvl flight and then take a minute to find out whats up if u ever get startled or just lost
I'm glad the captain didn't survive. Sorry first officer.
*John Lithgow voice
THERES SOMEBODY ON THE WING!
*little girl
N-O-S-M-O-K-I-N-G
NOOOO SMOKING!
On one of my sim rides in a DHC-8/100 the Check Airman failed my [Captains] ADI on a missed approach that required a left hand turn as soon as the A/C was stabilized in a climb [gear up and locked]. He did this about 3 seconds after I had initiated the turn, at about 6 or 8 seconds my ADI made no sense what so ever in that it showed a decrease in bank angle and a pitch down! Having over 18,000 hrs PIC in the -8 at this point, the sounds, sights and physical dynamics were not right! The F/O was still cleaning up the A/C and telling ATC of our miss, so he was not yet aware of any issue. I made a quick glance at my STBY instruments and then at the F/O's primary instruments, prompting me to command "You have the flight controls"!!!! He did not know why - BUT - as a well trained Professional Aviator he instantly assumed flying duties and continued the climbing left turn for the missed approach! If I had continued to use my ADI I would have, within a few more seconds, pulled the A/C into a steep bank and a steep climb thereby precipitating a severe upset at only about 900 feet. ADI failure and/or spatial disorientation or both is very insidious and therefore a deadly event at low altitudes with high work loads such as a missed approach!!
Why not use the autopilot until runway in sight - or decision height?
....you don't have to be a pilot to have difficulty recovering from unusual attitudes.
Was fs9 used in this video? It still looks beautiful to this day.
“Even if he had WENT.”
GONE is correct.
Being from nw ohio, I'm surprised I don't remember this crash.
My initial thought was they raised the flaps early on the go around (Loss of lift). Spatial disorientation from an experienced captain that just did a go around isn't the first thing that entered my mind.
OMG there is wing smoke at 2:20! Did that play factor in roll?
crew communications, plane in a low energy condition, first officer confidence with two missed approaches. I would guess Crew communications and resource management broke down at a very bad time.
Great video MACI, I feel the FO didn’t react fast enough due to fear of the captain.
I have a few thousand hours
I can not see any problem connected to the CRM here.
Cargo crew often know each other very well and communicate accordingly and if one assumes this to be the case here too there is nothing about the conversation that explains the crash. In the video one gets the impression that it was VMC. Was that the case or not, I haven´t read the report.
A DC-8 is a rather primitive aircraft in some ways, for example it does not have speedbrakes or liftdumpers. This makes late corrections for speed and altitude a bit difficult. It is possible to use reversers on engine 2-3 as speedbrakes but it was avoided if possible and on final it is better not to have two engines in reverse thrust as it would delay a GA. That means you have to get established early in the approach. If not, a GA is the way to go.
My guess is that something happened to the cargo at the GA. DC-8 is a long fuselage and in a GA situation it is possible to get negative g in the rear of the fuselage which could have shifted the cargo.
As always, if the crew dies they are often blamed. This makes it easier for everybody involved. Airline, aircraft manufacturer, loaders, maintenance or you name it.
Continued Approach Unstablized, PIC should of initiated Goaround, flown a concentrated Approach with minimal deviation. Strict selfdiscipline as this would show trends toward a deviation requiring only minimal corrections. The left turn was most likely rather rash, with an unwise steeper angle and slow speed...left wing moving slower than right stalled
*Hello fellow disaster watchers*
Hello
Greetings disasterlings! 😂 just attended sf fleet week on Friday for the first time in ages, been a bit of an aviation filled week! Not complaining lol
Hej
@@nilslindstrom8087 Are You Danish?
@@BlueAirways I'm swedish
Crew resource management for the win.
They never solved the question of why they were having so much trouble controlling the plane. And why was it so determined to bank, like the Ethiopian plane that crashed for similar reasons because the Captain couldn't get it out of the bank: he might have been not up to snuff, they both might have been tired, but it doesn't explain why he was having so much trouble with the controls, like with Ethiopian flight 409, where an experienced Captain couldn't figure out why he was having so much trouble.
Two planes reported turbulence on approach prior subject plane🤔
@@garymiller5624, I thought turbulence shook a plane, not forced it to bank?
@@patriciamariemitchel Usually yes; but if you just graze some turbulence it can disrupt airflow over one wing (reducing lift), causing the plane to bank.
Or worse (but less common in natural turbulence) if the turbulent swirls are about the same size as the plane, and lined up in the direction the plane is flying, then the air will be pushing up on one wing and down on the other, causing a sudden and violent bank.
As I recall it's pretty rare for weather turbulence to do this for more than a fraction of a second or so, but it has happened. And even a vary small bank might have been enough with the captain disoriented.
Though we can only speculate whether that's what happened or not (and it still doesn't explain everything).
@@thomasostrander4835, well said, thank you.
My mom was from the Ostrander family. 👏
@@patriciamariemitchel I was referring to overall control not bank per se. I am content that the bank was more pilot induced due overshooting the localizer along with control from turbulence. Both were apparent 🤭
Based on the captain's sour attitude and short temper, I'm guessing there was something going on in his life that was consuming his cognitive process. Just like how a computer processor fails and gives the Blue Screen of Death--which caused a task overload or target fixation wherein he neglected the instruments. He 'locked up'. Why else would the first officer take over control when the captain was such an in-charge sort of person? I've seen it happen a few times.
The captain had rank over the first officer. The captain already as is documented had berated the first officer. Not exactly ideal. Night time. Also a cargo plane. For a long time cargo planes had a very different more military like approach to operations than other people. It seems interesting to me anyway did the media really bother very much with this story ? Just curious. Great video. Thanks.
0:16 “…took off ahead of schedule.” Wait that’s possible? Really? REALLY?!? Huh, who knew?
It definitely leans towards inadequate CRM and the denigrating of the FO by the Captain…. I’d put the greatest blame on the bad attitude of the Captain to the First Officer start to finish…. so the FO was not as assertive as should be..
Guys the 80's most of these guys where half in the bag.I have flown with bush pilots.Bottle of jack between their legs. Which lake?That was 40 years ago.Right to the dock,See ya in a week.Now getting to commercial airports. Mia, sjo. You don't hear terrain, you hear who-ow whoo.
Like a boat at 1 mile long. course correction takes some time.
Sad situation
Why was the First Officer having flying issues before the Head Pilot took over? Was there a problem with Jet before the Pilot took over and the Main pilot did not learn the nuances of the plane like the First Officer did during the flight?
One thing, airspeed, not enough after he retracted the flaps 😢
I’m certainly no pilot and don’t understand everything when it comes to the details, but one thing I do know is if I WAS a captain and the first officer I’m flying with was having an issue, I don’t understand berating the person instead of taking over and explaining what to do. He got himself worked up and then when he finally did take control he had lost his own orientation and crashed the damn plane.
I thought the audible click was on the TOGA
The pilots should have realised that the plane had tiny engines from the 1970's.
The ADI from Honeywell is all well, honey!
The captain exclaimed wtf ? As the warnings went off. He was surprised. Something is a bit off here. We have an experienced Captain. He was not expecting warnings. Was the first officer bothered by his behaviour ? Had they flown together before ? The bad language may well be to do with them being quite relaxed with each other ? I note that a wind shear was going on at the time. Were they flipped over ? Wake turbulence can do that. This was real world wind with much power available. Why would a pilot suddenly bank like that ? He would check his perceived horizon with his instruments no ? He had many hours in all weathers and knew the airport. I don't buy disorientation on this one. Or intimidation. I think that they were caught in some very twisted air and were just a bit to low at the time.
Bosses who abuse employees make troubles they don't solve them. It's not even clear if the first officer had totally functional instruments, there may have been intermittent problems on each side. If it were commanded of me to find a source, instead of just writing it off as unknown, I would have put the blame on the pilot for having given misleading instructions to the first office and having made an environment where the first officer was unable to correctly do the job, this is the only known cause of the loss of the aircraft
7:00 the captain, disoriented? The F$&kn hell he was. This dude was God’s gift to the sky sounds like
Why are you still using FSX?
Donation issues?
Lesson learned: Don't be a jerk to your coworkers. They may save your butt one day.
Regarding the Captain, they hired the WRONG DUDE...
Sounds to me like A-cemetric thrust .
Asymmetric?
@@melindakaufman6605 yes , thanks for the correction.
I think the captain should have taken control of the plane much earlier. It's clear the FO wasn't up to the task of being pilot flying in such conditions on that day and the captain was clearly tired and irritated and wanted to get down on the ground ASAP. It can be hard to admit that's the reason you don't want the FO landing the plane today, as it can feel like a personal failing and you're denying them an opportunity to learn, but in the end you're only human, and sometimes you don't have the patience.
This is my definition of a "BRAINFART".
Why is it so dark that we can’t see what’s going on?
One wonders if turning on the autopilot the moment they realize the pilotis losing control would have saved them.
Captain sounded like a bully.
It's always on the Captain. That comes with the title. Bad Captain and a weak first officer is never a good combination. Please note that had they landed out of the first approach there would not have been an accident. What took place after the first go around is all that needs to be considered.
A real f-ing shame the f-ing capt was so abusive and bullied the f-ing copilot long enough for the f-ing plane to go down.
I feel sorry for the captain’s loved ones.
Not because they lost him, but because they had to live with him before that!
Foxtrot
The F- word you are looking for is Foxtrot
First Officer was not aggressive enough bocz of fear of captain command causing him to be doubtful to take stance in life or death situations. He should be thinking of saving g his life first.
Captain was disoriented and lost awareness of the situation due to frustration and fatigue.
Lmao the title.
Yeah
'The Pilots who didn't fly high enough'.
Lost at 3000ft
Holy Toledo Batman! 😯
Yeah
Just like KLM’s Jacob Van Zanten
Classic pilot error. That’s a hallmark case.