How A Scared Pilot Ended Up Killing 46 People | Kish Air Flight 7170
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2022
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This is the story of kish air flight 7170. On the 10th of february 2004 a fokker 50 was flying from kish island in iran to sharjah airport. The short flight was uneventful and the within 35 minutes flight 7170 was approaching sharjah. At 11:24 am local time dubai arrivals cleared the fokker down from 9000 feet to 5000 feet. 5 minutes later it was cleared all the way down to 2500 feet and cleared for the approach to runway 12 at sharjah. This was for all intents and purposes a very boring flight but that was all about to change. They had excellent visibility that day and very little wind as the pilots flew the VOR approach to runway 12. In the cockpit the capatin handed the plane over to the first officer, the first officer had a very simple landing ahead of him in visual conditions and the best weather that you could ask for. But the first officer put the plane into a position where it was a bit too high for the landing on runway 12 at sharjah. Ontop of that on the approach to runway 12 the plane was a bit too fast it should be configured for the landing at this point but it wasn't. The captain decided to takeover control from the first officer. Another plane had been asked to line up behind flight 7170 and the pilot of that plane watched on as flight 7170 flew its approach. Then suddenly out of nowhere the fokker 50 turned sharply to the left and started to dive to the ground. The plane spiraled to the left as it lost altitude very quickly. The pilots in the cockpit were trying their best to recover from the dive but it was of no use. Within a few seconds it was getting close to the ground and it was running out of altitude to recover. The plane impacted a vacant area and exploded into flames. The airport sent the fire trucks as soon as they could and the locals helped to with the rescue but despite their best efforts of the 46 people onboard only 3 people survived the crash.
The case of kish air flight 7170 is very strange. You had a beautiful day with great visibility, very little wind and barely any weather phenomenon and all of a sudden the plane just literally falls out of the sky for no apparent reason. The reason for the crash was locked in the cockpit voice recorder of the Fokker 50. The recorders were packed up and sent to France where they were downloaded by the BEA and what they had to tell was very interesting. The audio that they got from the recorder was great but the recorder gave rise to more questions than answers to be honest. The recording shed light on a few things that raised a few eyebrows, for example the captain set the minimum descent height to 410 and not 500 feet as published and he asked the first officer to fly 118 degrees instead of the published 117 degrees. These things were minor and in no way should have endangered the plane. They had amazing weather so things like these would have gotten adjusted for as the approach went on. But the really strange thing that was happening was in the cockpit. The captain wanted the first officer to take over the plane. This is nothing unusual captains do that all the time but in this case the first officer was hesitant. The first officer felt like he was not upto the task of flying the fokker 50 into sharjah under almost perfect weather conditions. He explicitly states that he doesn't have the experience that the captain does but the captain insists on the first officer flying. The captain goes so far as to coach the first officer on how to fly the approach. This makes no sense whatsoever. The first officer had more than 4000 hours in the cockpit, of which 600 were in the fokker, on top of that he was even a captain on a c130 for a while. Why this pilot was hesitant to fly a near perfect VOR approach to a runway is beyond me and the investigators. This is why the plane was poorly configured for the landing the first officer ended up putting the plane way too high way too fast and the captain had to intervene to get the plane into the correct configuration for landing.
Then when the captain took control of the plane something strange started to happened the sound of the engines changed in a way that they did not expect it to. The BEA studied the audio from the cockpit to try and piece together what was happening in the cockpit during those final moments. To get a clearer picture of what was happening they took another plane and recorded audio from its cockpit to see how the 
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If the recreation is anything close to accurate, the fact that 3 people survived that lawn dart of a crash is kind of amazing.
@E Van what is that?
I remember when lawn darts were used for recreation.
@@Milesco I still have mine... Good old Jarts
“lawn dart of a crash”🤣💀💀
@E Van i doubt planes have crumple zones
I used to fly with the same aircraft and captain for almost two years.
There was a protection system that gear must be down and air/ground sensor must send the signal from the shock absorber to the solenoid to let the throttles go to ground idle.
After a similar accident happened before this crash, Fokker maintenance company(Stork) published a non mandatory service bulletin about the air/ground switch box to be modified.
That service bulletin became mandatory after Kish air crash.
Infact a few days before, on approach to DXB the left propeller went to ground mode but luckily as soon as the crew executed go around and retracted the gear, propeller went to flt pitch range again. Unfortunately the incident wasn't reported properly by that crew because they didn't know what really happened.
A few days later, the crew of 7170 were not that lucky and never tried to retract the landing gear.
It was impossible to intentionally put the throttles in ground range because of that solenoid lock. I believe it was not pilot action and at least one engine went to ground pitch mode (uncommanded).
Obviously the solenoid lock wasn't engaged (which should be) and there was uncommanded transition of at least one propeller (left) to ground mode.
Why the service bulletin wasn't mandatory and after the second crash it became mandatory?
Obviously there was a flaw in the protection system.
Great comment, thanks for the insight. Very sad for the crew. I'm certain that has happened before with other aircraft too. So many times we hear there was an accident, non mandatory service bulletin comes out, someone doesn't do it, then it happens again. Only then it becomes mandatory.
Nice reply , thanks for your input.
I wonder why Ground Mode was not also controlled by airspeed? Is there any reason that it would logically be deployed at any velocity above landing speed?
Could they have bypassed the protection for some reason? Like someone taking the battery out of a smoke detector before cooking and neglecting to put them back?
@@renakunisaki Not as far as I remember. I stopped flying Fokker 20 years ago and btw, as far as I knew the captain (RIP), he wasn't such a pilot. He was always respecting the SOP.
Was there any investigation of the FO's mental state? If he'd been fighting some sort of depression, he might have lost confidence in himself, though it would be odd for that to happen in severe CAVU like that, on an approach a new PPL ought to have been able to handle.
What's really amazing is that anybody on board survived.
.
The report was pretty barebones. I did look for it but it wasn’t there. Imo there should have been a more in-depth look at the FO in the report
FO?
@@K1OIK FO = First Officer
Maybe he suddenly didn't feel well. Some equivalent of "the Attack of the Stealth Breakfast Burrito"?
This thought occurred to me as well. Sometimes an innocuous thing can trigger an anxiety attack. The more pressure there is the worse the anxiety, and the worse the anxiety the harder it is to pull yourself out. The only thing that works for some is to pause and separate from the situation for a few moments. In a fast-developing situation there’s no time to pause. Sometimes it happens so suddenly that I can’t even articulate the problem, which causes confusion amongst others around me.
I’m not saying that this is what happened to the FO, but if it were, it could have happened dozens of times in his career, but at times when he could mentally pause and recover without anyone knowing that it ever happened. From watching this and similar channels I’ve learned that the cockpit culture isn’t as conducive to showing any apparent weaknesses as other industries.
It’s miracle how 3 people even survived that crash.
If you think this is a miracle, you should check out the lady that survived a 33,000.00 ft fall regarding a plane explosion. It's on RUclips as well.
A miracle would be everyone survived unscathed
@@bernardallen3791 mate, that’s asking for too much
@@NoName-sb9tp no its not...thats just what a miracle would be.
@@nanonano2595 well… yeah :P
Man, I just LOVE your narration. You give the facts, you lay out the hypothesis, you give the conclusion straight and when there's none, cause sometimes we'll never know what really happened (who put the engine in reverse on that flight for instance) you dont end up theorizing for hours, you just tell what the different scenarios are and leave it to us to figure the most likely.
No extra blah blah, no emotional background music, no biography of the pilots when it's not required, no emotional information about that passenger who was pregnant and that other passenger who was on his her way to wedding...).
I remember watching a very well known TV program a few years ago... you fit in 10mn more than this 'professional' TV series put in 45mn. MUCH MORE.
Gracias senor!
also doesnt have 5 minutes worth of annoying self promo
I mean... the original ACI / Mayday show was a completely different genre of content. I wouldn't call the non-mini version unprofessional, just over-dramatized. They were editing to meet network time constraints and ad breaks, and they had to build pathos to capture the attention of a very broad audience. Their newer episodes are shaped by the same constraints. MACI wants to be concise and informative, so they only manage suspense enough to entertain; but they don't focusing over-much on drama, because they're looking to capture an audience that's already sufficiently fascinated with aviation incidents to stick around. Plus, RUclips tends to very short videos with much looser length constraints.
Both productions made valid choices, based on their respective distribution mediums and intended audiences. The rest is just the preference of the viewers. I know I, for one, wouldn't care nearly as much about MACI-style videos if I'd never sat down in front of my TV as a kid, absolutely enthralled with ACI, even though I prefer the more concise, informative style now.
Agreed. Attention to facts, with zero verbosity. Honestly speaking a news programme would milk this into a 2 part 45 min episodes
I don't know.... You get fed up hearing 'literally' way more than necessary in every video. The same as referring to the deceased as 'didnt make it' - something like 'fatally injured' would be way more suitable
Totally agree sir! But then, TV series on disaster subjects are all about holding back The Moment, maximising number and duration of hypotheses before the reveal. They try to keep the viewer captivated, including right through the multiple ad breaks too, a hard enough task in my case! They always repeat the last 20 seconds of the pre-ad-break moment on re-start afterward, as if the average numpty viewer will have forgotten what was going on. It's almost a way of reducing our attention span to seconds, as if we might need reminding about half a dozen important points frequently, because everything is being dumbed down, bit by bit. Regarding incidents like the one above, perhaps this should be an alarm call to aircraft manufacturers, airlines, and pilots alike to allow pilots to do more flying assuming PLENTY of genuine experience, and not to hand over too many of a plane's controls to digital technology. I realise I have steered away from the video here, more like getting into another pet hate of mine - that modern airline pilots barely fly anymore, the 'plane does it all bar a disaster.
I love how you always show the plane landing, makes me think of an alternate universe where everyone made it home
I know why the co-pilot didn't feel comfortable. Here is what I saw happen once:
I was a teen, my dad was a flight engineer on the 747 flying for Iran Air. We were flying back from a vacation to Tehran from London and my dad was in the cockpit and got me in there for the landing. On final approach the captain gave the landing to the co-pilot, maybe 5 min before landing. I distinctly remember that the flaps didn't extend so my dad initiated the alternate flap extension. All was good and the plane was stable and needed to make a left hand turn towards Mehrabad airport. The co-pilot made a 45 degree turn and the pilot took back control of the plane. The co-pilot couldn't even turn the damn plane.
Many co-pilotsin Iran are young guys with connections with religious leaders and get placed in these positions as a favor. This was 30 years ago, but I remember it distinctly.
So, their airline puts these guys in without running them through a really thorough training program first...☹️
Nepotism can be worked around, but incompetence at the controls of any motor equipment can end badly.
Do you still live in Iran, sir?
Thanks for sharing, I love insider anecdotes like these!
If your data about positions of convenience for lazy "elite" is correct, then the accident is consistent with a pay-to-fly doctored flight log. Still doesn't quite address how the throttle was forced to ground mode, unless the incompetent was also a compulsive suicidal mass murderer. Too many unknown to say, but I like your input 👍
I was thinking the same thing. If he was qualified on a C-130, that means he was former air force, and that means he had connections. The USSR had the same problem. Supposedly elite bomber pilots were actually the offspring of senior party members. They usually let their copilots fly the plane. When they had to do it themselves, the result was disastrous.
@@Zookeeper. it might not explain it at all, but it does make the case that it might not be _mere_ incompetence, but mind-boggling, systemic incompetence - and thus not "suicidal mass-murder," which is perhaps a bit harsh.
I think this is a classic case of a captain who had to take over from an aproach which was not properly set up by the first officer. The captain was taken a bit by surprise of the reaction of the plane when he took over and did not immediately recognise the mistake. By the time he had to rectify the mistake the engines took too long to respond to corrective action. Since the approuch was so easy and routine, the pilots could've been too relaxed and not fully aware of the imminent danger. A case of temporary mental incapacitation could also have played a role. The captain put both engines to full power. This could've cause the left engine to pool up into full power but in reverse pitch momentarily , which was disasterous for the speed and low altitude they were at.
A similar accident occurred in Scotland while the pilots were landing in dense fog with a similar type aircraft which overturned the plane on touch down when one engine went into reverse just before landing.
Aren't they supposed to do the set up with one pilot reading the checklist and the other pilot verifying that the settings are correct?
Kindly refer to my comment regarding this accident.
The fact there were any survivors is a miracle. Go arounds are an option for a reason. Excellent video, thank you.
Unfortunately, there just wasn't enough time for a go around in this situation ☹️
@@PatrickRyan147 agreed. They should have made that choice when they were too high, too fast but still in control. No shame in staying ahead of things that are not going as planned.
As soon as they realized they were too fast and high they should have initiated a go around. That’s why in US there is a no fault policy for go around. If for any reason you are not comfortable with your landing configuration yon can go around without repercussions.
My first thought was this might be a Frank Abagnale situation, a pilot somehow lying about their credentials, getting the job, and being forced to take control of a plane at a critical moment, unlike when Frank was given the controls temporarily at cruising altitude.
Flying on his 'cousin's license? . . . if so, who checked his documents originally . . .
I thought that too but as they likely died one of the 1st things to check would be DNA of the flight crew
Yep, my first theory. An experienced FO afraid of landing in perfect conditions? WTF?
It’s not like “my breakfast burrito was bad” or “I have severe vertigo” …
If the FO was *not* the person that the credentials belonged to but someone with limited experience, and the captain knew (or suspected) that, what better place to get the fake FO to learn flying a bit - in perfect conditions? The captain seems to have coached him …
Given that corruption is not unheard of anywhere, it certainly is possible that the paperwork was not quite correct about experience and/or person.
That would explain a lot of things - but it certainly is not the only possible explanation.
@@advorak8529 but probably the most obvious one. A perfect day for flying, what could possibly go wrong, and who will ever know?
Either
1. Poor/permeable bureaucracy let a midisdentified individual pretend to be the FO (the Abignale scenario)
Or
2. The FO descended from a wealthy family with juice, and superiors were afraid to report deficiencies and make him face challanges
Or
3. Mental health.
But I like the first 2 due to the tone of the captain/FO conversation
Thank you for all your great videos. The knowledge you have and research you do must be daunting.
quality content as always, i hope people donate so you can upgrade your system and give us high fidelity recreations, all the best to you your hard work is paying off man
Excellent as always 👌 thank you for continuing to share 👍
my best guess is that the FO had something going on, physically or mentally and he wasn't fully there, wouldn't been the first time pilots were distracted by something going on in their personal lifes.
He could have had a sudden urge to go to the restroom ( for instance a diarrhea) and felt embarrassed to tell the captain why he had to go.
Maybe he was just a bit tipsy... It's happened before.
@@renakunisaki
Poor guy was Iranian.
I thought they were generally pretty hardcore about not drinking...🤔
@@grmpEqweer All the more reason to not say why?
He may have developed a migraine during the course of the flight, therefore his visual and concentration levels would have been compromised.
Emotional breakdown. I'm 38 and last year I suffered my first breakdown and I had one recently. You lose your grip with reality and the most simple tasks can seem overwhelming. It's hard to put into words but I'd be willing to bet that he was suffering from some type of attack or breakdown.
Your not alone buddy!
Our mind and body reach their limits way before our knowledge of what the hells happening kicks in!
I hope you can take the time to chill and get support. It’s the same age I went through it and now I’m 64++. There is a path through it buddy!
Watching these excellent reports and the way he delivers the story can help put things in perspective😉
Yeah, that came to my mind as well. The brain is freakin' weird, man. Not an investigator, and obviously only have the info from this video, but if I had to guess, that'd be up there
Hope you are doing better. Keep your head up!
@@57Jimmy you're*
Emotional breakdown, certainly possible, or some type of brain seizure, TIA, diabetic shock, side effects of the Coof or the jab, etc... Yep. Hope y'all are doing better, I've had my own stuff like that to deal with too. God is faithful.
Great video as usual. Thanks!!
Your content never fails to entertain and amaze me. Keep up the inspiring work! Thank you! ❤️😊
Absolutely stunned that 3 people managed to walk away from that. That is amazing!
A great presentation for an accident I have never heard of. Thank you
On the planes that are RATED FOR reverse thrust in the air (a handful of military jets, some tailjets, and a few turboprops with a lot of wing area outside the disturbance cone of the engines) the most common usage case is making steep approaches to short runways, using it to bleed off speed while approaching above the glideslope, basically speedbrakes but stronger. Moving the propeller angle control into the ground range, but not into full reverse, is a common enough (but obviously unauthorized) trick on the turboprops with manual overrides to salvage a too hot/too high approach, allowing the propellers to be basically flat to the wind and engine braking to slow down without going into full reverse, however ground control range definitely is dangerous cause it's too easy to push past 0 degree pitch and into reverse pitch.
So, if I had to hazard a guess, someone was trying to salvage the approach and bumped the pitch lever a little bit too far, spoiled the air over one wing and couldn't push it into positive thrust fast enough to recover.
Fokker 50 was supposed to be protected against inadvertent selection of ground idle in flt. Pls refer to my comment. I explained it in details.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear that some passengers survived the crash, but I'm puzzled by two things:
1. Why was the co-pilot so nervous landing this plane in perfect conditions? (He was a certified captain so there shouldn't have been any power imbalance between the pilots, but this video fails to mention their flight hours, so I don't know)
2. Why didn't the FDR record the position of the thrust levers? (It's one of the absolute most important parameter to record)
FDR Roosevelt?
This is a relatively small plane from a country that has been denied access to aircraft and spare parts for decades. So the lack of western standard Flight Data Recorder data is not surprising. It is also possible the plane was in some degree of disrepair, making everything more dangerous than on a plane flying in the Netherlands (where the Fokker planes used to be made).
@@K1OIK Yes the 32nd president of the USA, Flight Data Recorder Roosevelt
Older aircraft had less standardized recorders.
@@sawspitfire422 lol perfect president flight data Roosevelt
One possibility is that FO could have been returning to the cockpit after an extended time off. That could explain why a pilot with a good amount of flight hours and hours on-type might have been excessively nervous or felt a lack of proficiency. There have been incidents where very senior training captains made baffling mistakes because they were spending so much time in the simulator and in ground school training other pilots that they rarely flew on the line anymore. Currency is just as important as experience.
Some commenters have stated that some pilots in that era in Iran were nepotist elite decendents who may not have real flight experience, flight training, have fake flight logs, and could have access of flying a real plane with most likely a real airline captain and crew...
Without them knowing that their FO is just a priviledge passenger..
@@MainMite06 That is _exactly_ what my first thought was. Not specifically---I just knew that one explanation that explains things is that the co-pilot is an imposter, or is otherwise incompetent. Occam's Razor.
hmmmm. no.
Sounds like anxiety. People hide it for so long and then one day they do something rash or just lose their nerve. I've seen a few suicides that were due to extreme anxiety. Never underestimate it.
I feel the first officer should have rejected control quickly if for whatever reason he felt uneasy about it.
When I have given any of my peers "control" of a procedure and they rejected it, I never argued about it but waited a good period of time before touching on the subject. I waited patiently untill they were confident to try the experience. This had paid off many times resulting in good engineers rather than "aint-gineers".
Yay! In time for a new MACI video!
The narration and facts are just out of this world this channel is sure worth every bit of it's onion
Your the best thank you for the vids👍
I vote for a video essay of the flight regarding the GC solenoid. Great job as always, thank you for your work.
I could be wrong here but the ground control range sounds similar to deploying thrust reversers on a turbofan powered engine. If that was the case, wondering if there was an audible alert or a visual alert for the pilots to notice.
correct. The reverse pitch angle of the blades is so that the aircraft can slow down on landing and taxi. There is a mechanical stop on the power levers that prevents reverse pitch. The pilot must physically override the stop by pulling up on the power levers and moving them into reverse or ground fine range.
If that's the case, why would it be possible to put the plane into ground control range at all whilst still in flight? As I understand it, on jet planes there are multiple checks to ensure that the plane has actually landed before the engines can be put into reverse thrust - why would it not be the same in the case of this turboprop? Is there actually some crazy scenario where you do need to put the props into ground control range while still flying? If not, this seems like a major error on the part of the manufacturer.
@@anthonyalles1833 well this aircraft is used by some military air force around the world. Putting both engines on reverse could be a tactical landing maneuver where (to avoid rpg or handheld point and shoot missiles) the pilot would fly a really high approach, then just engages reversers on both engines to descent at a really alarming rate without increase in airspeed.
Basically there is no way to put the throttles to ground mode even if you pull the lock. A solenoid shaft protects it. Kindly refer to my comment about the accident
@@anthonyalles1833 you are absolutely right! Air/ground swith signal on the shock absorber was needed to activate the solenoid and remove the lock. But it was a flaw with the air/ground switch box. Kindly check my main comment.
really nice narration and video production not too boring and really informative and im glad to see someone still use fsx! I reccomend you to get the enb series mod if you havent it wouldnt affect fps even in potato machines
I saw the debris that day, it was terrible to see those frightening moments. My school was near to the airport area. I heard a loud bursting sound and when at 1pm I left the school I found a horrible scene which I cannot forget
finally a video about my countrys air line,thank you,there is a atr crash fron iran air in dena mountain pls make a video about that too,
Maybe the FO was feeling sick? Maybe he had some sort of memory loss or cognitive difficulties? Hell, maybe he had something stuck in his eye and was embarrassed to say it was a problem to a superior? While I understand the captain's confusion, if someone says they're not up to it and it's a safety critical task, maybe listen to them and follow up once it's safe. (Not I'm not criticizing the captain, coaching him sounds like a really good option, but in hindsight maybe not so much.)
Yeah, I though that he could have a stroke, and be aware enough that somethings wrong with his thinking ability, but not enough for self
diagnose.
For years I was the dispatcher for Security & Safety and emergency maintenance at a large Chicagoland hospital. I assigned tasks to a crew of 7-16.
My crew was free at any time to ask me to delegate others for any call they didn't feel up to taking. I never asked for a reason or an excuse nor did our other members. We deliberately fostered that mindset because many of our calls required appropriate response from people who had their head in the game.
It only happened rarely, but we had the smoothest running, most effective and cohesive shift.
I would often be told after the fact what the deal was but most times it was a transitory situation. For ongoing difgiculties I could cater the calls in the future. For example, I had two officers who couldn't deal with morgue calls, and one engineer who had had a rancorous breakup with a floor staff member.
In any case we were able to handle our situations effective, safely, and professionally. Everyone was happy and problems were easily avoided because of the work environment we had fostered.
Coaching instead of taking control wouldn't be the logical move if there's even the slightest possibility of pilot incapacitation. It just doesn't make sense, there's got to be more going on here.
Stayed up just long enough for a MACI upload 🙌🏽
MACI?
This is why you should listen to someone when they say they don’t feel comfortable doing something. Maybe this would’ve happened anyway but who knows.
and this comment should win 🏆
Weight on wheel switch must be in series to this ground control switch so until both main landing gears hits ground and weight on wheels cross certain limits this reversed pitch will not activate... Just like thrust reversers in other jets (even this negative angles of propellers blades doing same thing as thrust reversers in turbofan engines)
Weight on Ground (WOG) switches when I started in aviation
Theory : the captain thought it a good idea to activate reverse thruster to reduce air speed without informing co pilot, who panicked and tried to intervene at the point where 1 engine was in negative pitch and the other was responding to the go around. Asymmetric thrust with little altitude to manoeuvre. Note the simulation might have been too vertical for 3 souls to survive. IMO
No, reduce thrust and regain profile yes, then hand it back and coach if required.
This has the hallmarks of a technical issue.
HI. Thank you for your great work and dedication. Have you heard about the crash of Hercules airtanker No.130? There is even footage available of the structural failure.
While the state of mind of the FO would be interesting to examine, I'm more curious as to why, being close to landing, the Pilot just didn't look at the situation and go around? I get Turboprops are slower, great weather, etc., however, it seems to me that this is just a classic situation to go around and do it right.
Hey! There was recently a small airplane crash here in my hometown of Ellenville NY where a small 2 person plane attempted an emergency landing on a superb street! No one was injured aside from the pilots….once the NTSB report is out, I think it may make for a good video! There are some smaller articles about the crash and some aftermath videos available online
The possibility that this was an intentional sabotage by the FO is troubling. The unlikeliness of the FO trying to take his own life and sabotaging the plane as he was handing over to the captain seems surpassed by the unlikeliness of any other option. The lack of confidence could easily be read as an unwillingness to be pilot flying during the crash, as well as nervousness about what he may have known was about to happen, or even a planned way to distract the captain. This is completely speculative, of course 😂
🤷🏻 "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" ?
@@grmpEqweer @GetThePitchforks !!! I agree 100% - in situations that can be "adequately explained by stupidity". But as I said, this is only a speculative possibility, and not one unheard of in aviation.
FO?
@@K1OIK first officer
@@houhoudebaicai Germanwings...
I have 3,000 hours in the F-27. This Fokker F-50 is a variant with system and engine differences. Note that the Dart engines and the Rowty-Rotol propellers on the F-27 have a spring colette at the 16 degree (or 20 degree) angle (depending on the engine/propellor installed. If these locks fail to engage due to unwanted oil pressure retracting the Flight Fine Pitch Locks (FFPL) then there is a hydraulic system that uses the feathering pump to provide oil pressure to maintain a proper angle of 14 degrees or more. All of these are to prevent “disking” or flat pitch (measure at .7 the radius of the propellor blade). At cruise, there was also a Cruise Pitch Lock (CPL) that restricted the propellers to 28 degrees or greater. These were to negate an asymmetry of one prop should it go to a low pitch stetting in high cruise while the other did not, which would cause sever asymmetrical thrust and torque.
On the ground, below 60 knots, a power lever could be moved to allow the blades to go to zero pitch. This was an electrical circuit and there was a second one via the gust lock, which also gave the signal remove the FFPLs and to cancel the auto-coarsening, Hence, the blades went to flat pitch and the drag slowed the plane (no reverse of the blades was available other than the blade beyond .7 radius was slightly or marginally negative.
Some operators of Pratt and Whitney PT-6s, have used reverse in flight to slow down in flight. This is a capability of this engine/prop combination on some aircraft, although forbidden by procedure.
Could it be that this was a contributing factor here? I doubt it based on the previous commentator who is more familiar with the F-50 engine/prop systems. If the prop slipped into zero pitch, the results would be exactly what was demonstrated by this aircraft. This scenario is exactly why the F-27 with RR Dart engines had two ways to prevent zero pitch in flight.
Great video sir
The logic on "ground based" systems, whether they be ground spoilers, thrust reverse , sometimes even beta range on turboprops have an input from a weight on wheels signal.
When that, "if" that signal is not present, the protections can, in some cases be lost.
Other inputs can but do not necessarily radar altitude and configuration depending on the aircraft type.
I have had a weight on wheels sensor go strange on me, which only limited the lift spoiler deployment after landing, but curiously, it reset again before takeoff.
We checked the protections before departure for the rejected takeoff case, but on every landing, one spoiler set would not deploy, and this was traced to a weight on wheels signal.
Although the specifics in your video are rather sparse, a follow up on the tech log history for this airframe would be illuminating.
As a result of watching this channel, I want my eulogy to begin:
_"This..._ is the story of a pathetic old man."
Disturbing to know that such a drastic thing could happen without a determination of the cause.
You think that's disturbing? I read about a guy who took a Tylenol and his skin just fell off, apparently it's a super rare side effect of a lot of medications. Your skin peels off completely, not just the top layer after a sunburn but the whole thing like peeling a tomato and you die in agony from exposure. It's a horrible way to go and it can happen to just about anyone.
@@JO-ch3el Not all people are addicted to certaine modern medicine...
@@JO-ch3el That’s the most terrifying random comment I’ve ever read. Thanks! 😂
You do great work. Can you do one on Mohawk 405?
Great video.
You say of the 46 on board 3 survived, wouldn't that mean the crash killed 43, not 46 as the video title states
Now THAT’S a fact that would concern ME !!
Hoooly sh*t !!?
Thank-you!
A crash similar to this would be the Mohawk Airlines flight that crashed into the house in Albany New York in 1972. It was a Fairchild Hiller FH 227 very similar to the Fokker 50. They too had a problem with the propeller pitch on the number one engine or the left side engine. They couldn't get it to transition from Cruise pitch to flight fine pitch to set up for landing and their preoccupation with trying to shut that engine down and feather it, as it would not feather, allowed them to get too low and too slow and before they realized it, adding full power to the operating engine was insufficient to bring them out of an inevitable meeting with terrain and the aircraft ended up crashing into a house lifting the house up and the house falling back on top of the airplane but there was no post crash fire..
The house?
Good analysis
Fascinating x
Thank you for all the great Videos! After watching your channel I will NEVER fly again, no way!
The irainian final report mentions 3 resons: 1. Captains insist on fo flying the plane impaired the crm and ignoring cockpit protocols. 2. Applying incorrect method for reducing speed.... 3. The plane had something called thrust reverse lock that must have been armed before takeoff, but was not also the plane missed an alarming system that warned against thrust reverse deployment during flight.
can u please just increase the volume a bit on your videos? been asking for this for a while now. i don't think it will cost u any extra work time, and it will be much appreciated. thanks & keep up the amazing work!
I have actually increased it tbh. That’s weird
Was just reading the Yeti Air crash initial accident report and it's figured that the co-pilot feathered the props thus losing air speed. They figured she meant to extend the flaps. Not exactly the same, but similar.
I believe it was determined that the check pilot who was monitoring her flight performance just prior to her anticipated promotion was the one who moved the wrong lever when she requested additional flaps down. What a tragedy.
This week I was being trained (poorly) by a Treasurer in a new job. Even though I had understood the task, I told her I couldn't close the shift too fast, since it was my first time. She arrogantly insisted I did it, an argument ensued, resulting in me passing her the task midway and storming out. I believe that a Captain, unless incapacitated, should always take over when the FO clearly can't do it, not force a bad situation into something worse. RIP all victims.
FO?
@@K1OIK First Officer
@@ShitboxFlyer
What did he do with the time he saved not typing irst fficer?
@@ShitboxFlyer Thanks a lot, Wise Amigo :-)
@@K1OIK What could you have done with the time you wasted on this comment.
Your voice is so relaxing
It is unprofessional to hand over the controls to the other pilot on final approach. Unless the pilot flying experiences a problem, like incapacitation. The approach is briefed before the airplane starts to descend, and from then on, there should be no doubt about who is flying the airplane. Secondly, when the first officer objected, the captian should have continued to fly the aircraft himself. So sad, so sad.
I too am someone that does not prefer this style of coaching. If I’m to do a task I would like to do the procedure from start to finish with coaching on how I’m doing.
It's sad and scary that one person's incompetence and/or lack of confidence can kill so many people.
Featureless weather, featureless terrain, yet someone managed to crush the plane.
I remember hearing the phrase: "an accident looking for a place to happen." Thinking it applies here
Great video!!!
I really like these story-like narration. With your soothing voice, maybe you should publish an audio book of some sort. It's likely that it'll sell well.
Thanks!
That's very strange, a bad design for sure. How can it go in Ground control mode when it is still flying in air? Ground control mode should be enabled only after wheels start rotating on ground. Such a small mistake and so many lives are gone in fraction of second.
It was a flaw! Service bulletin introduced after the first accident but wasn't mandatory untill this accident happened
The landing gear have been lowered so the sensor read ground mode hence it can be reversed.
@@raviarjuna9839 it could! If they just retraccted the landing gear.
Last solution was to shut down that engine to force it to go to auto feather mode. Then there was a chance!
How very strange. The only explanation I can think of, unlikely as it sounds, is that perhaps the F/O was an imposter who had taken the place of the real F/O. For example the real F/O had wanted to miss work that day and had sent his brother to take his place, who had enough informal flying experience to bluff his way into the cockpit and complete checklists etc., but was completely unqualified. The captain either did not know the real F/O well enough to spot the difference, or was complicit in the deceit and had decided to give the unqualified pilot an ad-hoc flying lesson (but without saying anything incriminating in the cockpit, knowing that the CVR would record it). In either case it would not then be implausible to believe that this was never discovered, with the wrong person being declared deceased and the real F/O and his family never revealing the truth (perhaps carrying on life under the imposter's name, or perhaps just moving away and carrying on under his own name - after all if banks etc. are not explicitly told that a customer is dead, they would not freeze the account, and things such as driving licences and passports are not cancelled automatically when a death certificate is issued AFAIK).
There was the guy in the film, "Catch me if you can," who bluffed his way into the cockpit by pretending to be flight crew (but in that case as a "dead head" rather than actually flying the aircraft), but I have no idea how well the film matches the real events. And the Russian captain who allowed his children into the cockpit and gave them an ad-hoc flying lesson which ended up crashing the aircraft.
F/O
@Fidd88 So why not type it?
What did he do with the time he saved not typing irst fficer?
@Fidd88 enquiring? The channel is NOT dedicated to aviation. The general public is here. The video produced explains everything. I have no problem getting responses as responders love to brag how smart they are.
What these type threads are full of are a closed club of elite who try to show how hip and cool they are by using aircraft terms
that easily could be spelled out so the casual viewer could understand them.
@Fidd88 The general population is here, not just flying geeks. Plain talk please.
Concern troll is concerned.
Hi! Love your channel, can you please do a video on the Caspian air crash from Tehran Iran to Yerevan Armenia please? There was a very famous musician who passed away in that plane crash and a lot of people are wondering what happened, thank you
I have 11,600 hours flying the F27 Fokker Friendship over 17 years (That is not An F50's engines).
I did a lot of training work & some Checking on the F27 & we were very aware of Ground Fine Pitch being able to be selected in the air by pulling the throttles back over the spring loaded stops ( The props are actually zero thrust except near the engine intakes).
On the panel near the Captains side is a switch called (Auto Corsening) & if you switch that quickly it will pull both props out of Ground Fine & would have got them out of the problem.
When switched to reverse or "ground mode" does the propeller rotation actually reverse? If so, how does it happen so quickly?
The rotation stays the same but the angle of the prop blades is altered. As others have pointed out, there really should have been a mechanism to make this impossible while airborne as there are no circumstances under which it is safe to do so while in the air.
No, the pitch angle of the blades changes or reverses; the propeller continues to rotate in the same direction. It still isn't instantaneous though.
Installing a safety warning device related to the thrust reverse deploying was had been required by the manufacture that Kishair had not done...
Safety first. If someone tells you they can’t do something, believe them.
I thought that was standard CRM
Slight issue in the title as it says 46 people died, but once again another excellent video
Your videos are good.
C-130 is a military aircraft so presumably the first officer had been in the military. For this reason, I wonder whether he was having one of the random panic attacks that happen sometimes with PTSD. I know it's happened to me driving before and I had to pull over and let someone else drive, not because I'm a bad driver or an inexperienced driver, but because the nature of the intense panic I was feeling made it unsafe for me to drive at that time. It happens and it's a good reason not to ask our young people to go to war unless there is absolutely no other choice. We have enough potential sources of PTSD in normal life that we don't need to add the additional risk of sending people to war.
Just a guess, but they may have discussed (argued?) the use of reverse thrust as a viable in-flight option prior to the actual flight.
An oddly high and fast approach, a nervous Flight officer, and a crash.
Amazing anybody could survive.
Gimme more of this content
I wonder if the FO may have been experiencing an acute medical condition, such as an ocular migraine (temporarily causes blind spots), or perhaps a minor stroke. These sorts of things create instant confusion and can be completely debilitating.
For a span of about five years, I had ocular migraines--maybe three times a year. Confirmed and diagnosed by the chairman of ophthalmology department at a university medical center and a neurologist. Symptoms always occurred at my office, at a time when I had been focusing on my computer screen for hours. Several times they occurred when leaving the office for the day, but still inside the building. Sudden onset of sparkling colors in my peripheral vision, but then moving toward the center of focus until I had just a peep-hole of clear vision. I would immediately find a seat, close my eyes, and start some deep, slow breathing. Lasted about 7 minutes. Was like when you were a child, looking through a kaleidoscope. Was always worried about onset while driving at rush hour. Been ten years since the last one (Being retired, I don't spend so much time staring, straining, and forcing my eyes to focus on the monitor. ) Easy to understand an experienced pilot who has these episodes, but who does not want to reveal them for fear of losing his job, license and certification. Scary stuff, indeed.
I'm not sure what it was (since I never went to a doctor) but when I was a fulltime student and working fulltime and having marital problems, so I was BEYOND overstressed, I started having migraine attacks where my head would feel like it was popping or exploding, followed by 20 minutes of agonizing pain where I could only lie flat on my back, eyes closed and could not really speak. The first time it happened ever, It took me at least 5 minutes to tell my wife what was going on. If I was responsible for landing a plane, it might be so confusing the first time it happened that I might think "I must land the plane" and not communicate properly that I was having a medical condition and just kill everyone, I can totally see a migraine at the very wrong moment killing someone.
@@airthrowDBT Interesting thing about my ocular migraines: no pain or discomfort. Just my vision suddenly idsappearing.
@@4325air There is a sub-condition called Painless Ocular Migraine. I've been diagnosed with it by an ophthalmologist. It just comes and goes, no reason, no pain, just strange things happening with my eyes. It's occurred several times when I was driving and I had to get off the road for several minutes until it passed.
@@joeyjamison5772 Precisely, Joey. My ophthalmologist diagnosed the same thing for me. I was always concerned about having an episode at 70mph in rush hour. Sort of random; maybe once every two months. After retiring, however, and no more frustration/stress at my job, I've had but one or two episodes in the past 9 years.
Great recreation, as usual and quite shocking episode. Just one comment on the pronunce of Sharjah: I believe the "j" should sound "ee" as in "bee", if this makes sense to you.
This is extremely strange to listen to.seeing how advanced the avionic equipments are
reminds me a little bit of the loss a FOKKER from LUXAIR just before landing on Luxembourg airfield some 20 years ago
Could there not have been some kind of control malfunction? If this had happened earlier in the flight that could explain the FO's nervousness as well.
At this stage, any speculation is in reality nearer to guesswork although I shall try! Having for whatever reasons found themselves fast and high, it may reasonably be inferred that a drastic/ non standard procedure was attempted to rectify their condition to allow the landing to happen safely at first attempt. If that indeed was the case, it wouldn't be the first time, and sure as hell won't be the last, pilots have short cut the manual to avoid a go around. Difficult to say who pushed the throttle to Ground Control, although the FO was flying. Despite all their experience, as the title of the clip suggests, one, the other or both could have simply got scared. Such is the reliability of aircraft these days, quite probably more than 9 out of 10 pilots with 6000-plus hours, have not dealt with any emergency. Any attempt Mentour might make to reassure in his chill Scandinavian way, that "pilots are trained for this" isn't that comforting - while I don't doubt technically true, avoids the question of the wide variance in individual pilots' temperament, not to mention the very different set of stresses - both in terms of what is actually creating the incident and the emotional aspects of handling it - involved in a live emergency which may well be comprised of never-seen-before failures and will always tax the nerves more heavily than a training session.
Many people might be tempted to view this as naming and shaming or pointing the finger. And it is true several accident analyses I have seen - not on this channel I might add - seem so quick to defend the pilots by swerving to blame the airline for lack of (adequate/regular/appropriate/timely etc) training it engenders a feeling of defensiveness. To an extent, especially if it is a professional pilot whose channel it is, that's understandable. But in the same way, if an approach is adopted where no matter what, it's always "something else" that can be just as difficult as automatically and unfairly "accusing" with pilot error. I understand, of course, not just that there is expertise, but wisdom required to differentiate and certainly don't claim the former - nor necessarily the latter!
The devil is inevitably in the detail so we don't know what either pilot's record was like and the sort of training they undertook - one suspects that whatever, it wouldn't have included recovering from the results of "shoving the 'plane in reverse" ( I both paraphrase - and remind of my earlier acknowledgement of the speculative nature of that presumption). Similarly, while the pilots of Pinnacle flight 3701 weren't technically doing much massively wrong, they fooled around, without even the 6000+ hours captain being able to handle the consequences of the 'plane biting back. I would argue no amount of training could have saved them....
In this instance, which of the two of pilots did what at which time, will inevitably remain moot and unfortunately neither survived to ask - it is an astonishing miracle anyone did! A horrible accident anyway - thankfully this channel seems to focus on the genuine interest of the investigation of incidents, rather than the vile tabloid rubbernecking of a lurid human disaster posing as a detective story - partly the reason I like it here so much, that it manages to avoid all that, not to mention the "near misses" are more interesting. But inevitably there will sometimes be a death toll. I hope the change in procedure referred to included the underlining of the requirement to be correctly configured by a certain distance and the lack of consequence of initiating a go-around......
Multiple tray tables were not stowed in a fully locked position or, someone didn't have their seats fully upright. Or, any combination thereof.
Expect more of this. Airline’s have cut time requirements in pilot training to head off the pilots shortage. Their all great pilots until something go wrong.
To say that I wanted to scream for my life when I saw the plane dive towards the ground is quite an understatement
This crash must have been particularly horrific for the passengers.
There was a Luxair crash of a Fokker 50 when the plane went into ground control range. Is there any similarity?
Could have been a sabotage job by the co-pilot. Conveniently removed himself from the approach then had time to initiate his plan.
fokker 50 have had problems with that circuitry in flight and on the ground . inversely to this inflight I was captain on a f-50 landing on a short runways when I could not go into ground idle and reverse after touchdown . squat switch did not activate ground circuitry and throttles would not go back past flight idle compounding problems occurred as brakes locked tires blew up and plane became uncontrollable all that in 18 seconds resulting in a major crash since the runway was short .... found later both reverse breakers in the off position .
Interesting. My very first thought was the FO not wanting to do the landing, when he clearly had the experience. I think a possibility of his reluctance was he had a suicide plan and wanted full attention on ensuring the blades were in reverse.
"It's a cultural or professional issue." Well, that's nice and specific and clears thing up 🙄
Can you do a video on the recently crashed an12 in greece.
Burst into flames? No burn marks. Still a great video!
The pilots do not sound perfectly "Sober" esp the 1st officer. Maybe they had some Quat or hash ? Or maybe just No. 1 ? Why would an experienced pilot on a perfect day get nervous. So nervous that on surrendering control he messed up the throttles trying to put them "back" to where he thought the captain wanted them. If he was in awe of the captain he would not have lost face be admitting his fear. The report mentions "cultural" issues. This is very odd. The 1st officer seems to be really incapacitated. The Capt seems to be aware of this. He is kind and unsurprised by his co pilot being wobbly. Why ? if he knew No.1 was in a funk why give him the landing ? Beats me what went on that day.
I understand the vertical pitch of the propellers. This may be more of a question if you decrease the throttle, that would be the same as adjusting the pitch on the propellers; I'm thinking maybe instead of reducing the throttle, use the veritable pitch because you probably would have more throttle response if you had to do adjust suddenly I'm not a pilot I'm just guessing I was trained as an auto mechanic. I thought the same about the first officer being hesitant to fly the approach. If I'm not mistaken, he flew C-130s guessing, but that could be a clue to what happened. His hesitancy was based on something you don't get to fly C-130s because you collected enough S&H Green stamps.
I was living in the UAE when this happened, awful news and a huge shock.
F/O was under the influence of some substance/had just before the flight recieved devastating news/had a known or unkown medical condition. Was all of this ruled out during the investigation?
Please make a video on that incident you mentioned
It would be awesome if you could add some cockpit recordings.