As an INTJ and a debater i am astonished by the ignorance surrounding my type. First, we have feelings, we just choose to not show, or make a show out of them to sway someone when logic is clearly more effective. Also, we dont argue for self validation or for the sake of winning, we argue because we feel that the opponent is incorrect, and their case violates our personal beliefs. Therefore ur tactic will never work, because if an INTJ is involved in a debate they wont give up because of stupid arguments or get tired, thry defend what they believe until they think it is no longer correct.
+ron free Not so entirely true... if I think I'm defending a correct idea against an idiot I'll just call it a loss and walk away. The world is such a messed up place there's obviously billions of people with billions of incorrect theories, assumptions, ideas, that all add to how things are, so typically I just give up. Let me put it this way: it's risk reward. Convincing someone I don't know that well especially of an idea.. if they don't want to see the truth then at a certain point I'm calling it quits. No need to try and teach a chicken to read Shakespeare, it's not going to happen.
Let me start off by saying I don't just go up to anyone who I know is wrong. I chose my fights based on 1) If its a person who I know will be receptive 2) If its something important. Dont get me wrong if someone says 2+2=5 I will correct them, but I will use a calculator to do so, so if they wanna argue about it they can take it up with the calculator. And I believe if its something worth arguing about in the first place, then its worth seeing it through till the end. Typically I wouldn't start an argument with a stranger, I start an argument if its a person I know or care about, and if I am strongly convicted that why I am arguing is because I am invested in a person and want to help them see something from a different perspective. Thats something else, if I am arguing something, its not with the intent to pummel someone into submission with what I'm saying, its to get them to think about it.
Ron you have a very good point. I don't engage someone whose brain is clearly not connected to his mouth. You can't educate a parrot (and unfortunately many of the most vocal people have few ideas that were not handed to them by the media or their friends, or sadly even their professors). If someone is thinking and willing to consider reality with his own mind, no matter what the herd is doing, that is a worthy person to invest your time and ideas into. And seriously, what can be gained by arguing with someone who can't understand what you are arguing about? Might as well talk to the wall. An honest investigating mind is rare and valuable. Such a one will be swayed by valid facts and reason.
Tim, you express my opinion on this exactly. I've learned to avoid having an argumentative disposition entirely with most people (except other NT's, I suppose), because it ultimately doesn't matter very much to me whether someone is persuaded ... I just want the satisfaction of knowing that I've at least TRIED to give a Te representation to what Ni is telling me. Also it's always nice when, in the course of time, circumstances prove you right. Then, if you weren't an jerk earlier, people will come to respect your insight even if they can't always follow your logic.
Ikr. Hahaha. Fear not. They are not INTJs. They have a hard time understanding anything, let's give them time to evolve. & don't get started on an argument with the INTJ, just ask for a solution they'll help you if you are a good person in his eyes. Right. 😊🍻😊
I have to agree with Alex here. Winning by default seems incredibly cruel. If an INTJ is debating you, they aren't doing it simply to debate. They don't like wasting their own time or the time of anyone else. If the topic or the person is important to them, that's when they put in the effort and give up their time. So, in winning by default and playing dumb, you are insulting them; and, trust me when I say this, they do know it's happening. They just won't always point that fact out. Eventually that kind of thing can also destroy friendships with them, confuse them, and cause them to lose interest in you because the logic becomes something that they can't reconcile. From an INTJ; debating is a show of respect when it's an area they are knowledgeable on, just as much as an unwillingness to debate is a show of respect when they haven't had a good chance to give a topic enough consideration. Just be direct and admit when you don't know something. Be honest with them instead of trying to win. I will honestly tell you that I never debate with the intention or goal of 'winning'. Winning is for video games, learning new things, and career ladder climbing. My goal is to clarify misunderstandings, to help someone else not look ridiculous, or to resolve situations where I think someone may be in danger. I spend an extensive amount of time thinking about things, and in sharing them I am saving you that trouble or at least attempting to. Not knowing something doesn't mean that you are wrong; it just means that you don't know. Maybe it's even not so much that one of you is wrong. Maybe it's that both of you are right from your own approaches, possibly even in complete agreement, and simply can't bridge the communication gap to come to that understanding. Just learn when to admit it. Neither one of you has to win and an INTJ would respect you more for your honesty. An INTJ who is willing to debate with you would offer you the same courtesy, so as not to waste your time or give you poorly thought-through information. INTJs are naturally intimidating and that can sometimes lead people to believe that we need to win. This is not the case. We like to win, but it's not a need; as expressed by the fact that we very much enjoy being proven wrong. Playing dumb and winning by default can also come across as mockery, even if that isn't your intent. He really underplays just how hurtful it can be. More so if the reason for debating is due to respect for the other person. Not so much, if at all, if it's just for the topic.
Well said. I agree completely. Personally, I hold the truth and logic in much higher regards than my own ego or desire to be right. It’s disappointing when others perceive me as trying to be intellectually dominant. That’s not my intention at all. Sure, it’s nice to win an argument. It has less to do with asserting my will over others than it does with being happy that my own mental faculties are working properly. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. No problem. I think the problem is a lot of people dislike being wrong more than we ever enjoy being right, which is often because we typically won’t engage unless we have good reason to do so.
i am an INTJ. I hope Alex is not representative about how smug INTJs are. This dude is just so self-assured it pains me. INTJs may contemplate the possibility of their being wrong in face of emotional, irrational or religious arguments if they realise that logic and rational argumentation are limited in their scope to yield a comprehensive view of the world. An INTJ need not be baffled by the idea that "facts are the enemy of truth". What is a fact? Why is a fact true? Who decides what is a fact and what isn't? INTJs can be open-minded and, in fact, should be, because otherwise they hang on to their preconceptions and are imprisoned by them. An INTJ is open-minded if she is open to doubt her most cherished assumptions.
Facts are true by definition. That is what a fact is. Your series of questions about facts points to someone believing something is a fact when it isn't. Yes, that would lead them to a wrong conclusion, but it was really a falsehood that led them astray, not an actual fact. Facts aren't the enemy of truth, they are an absolute requirement in determining truth. You can also start out with actual facts, but fail in your logic and reasoning to find truth from those facts. Once again, the enemy of truth is not actual facts. Truth is found with actual facts followed by proper logic and reasoning. So the ultimate path to truth, requires facts. It's not the enemy of truth.
@@m4lev0lentdem0nknightamv5, Why is that an inappropriate question? The comment from Chris K doesn't sound remotely like I would expect from our personality type. "facts are the enemy of truth" is not a logical statement. Facts are required for truth and thus are the greatest ally of truth. "What is a fact" - It's a true statement. "Why is a fact true" - because that is the definition of what a fact is. "Who decides what is a fact and what isn't?" - reality. Facts can be tested to verify that they are true. These are not INTJ like questions. I've questioned two others that have made non-INTJ like comments while stating they were INTJ and they both let me know that they sometimes test as INFJ, so are very borderline. The comments that made me question if they were INTJ were very much in line with INFJ.
Im an ENFP and have actually won debates against INTJ's, but this is only because I was not supporting a whimsical idea against their argument they just so happened to be wrong in the first place and all I had to do was point out the loopholes in their argument. The only way to win in an argument with an INTJ as an ENFP is to be right in the first place which generally doesn't happen with the INTJ, but will periodically simply because of humanic limitations. The truth is the only thing worth saying anyways so fellow NF's stop trying to make your whimsical assumptions a truth by presenting it creatively, because if its wrong its wrong your not going to confuse them.
"The only way to win in an argument with an INTJ as an ENFP is to be right in the first place" Exactly. The ultimate goal of an INTJ in a discussion is not to "win", but to expand our understanding of the subject. If you win because you have facts that we do not have, or better logic and reasoning, then we will (ultimately) appreciate "losing".
Lol! My ex-boyfriend was an INTJ, and I'm an INFP. And I remember saying "I'm not wrong just because I'm crying, I can think and cry at the same time!".
The first thing an INTJ does when presented with a fact that enunciates new relevant data - You are correct easy win, you just have to know what you are talking about and get your facts very well researched
Well I would argue that, in the face of a person that is usually unconvincing in their arguments or naive in their believes, an INTJ would first and foremost doubt the source of information being referred to. Even with scientific backup, we are well aware of human errors such as confirmation bias or other fallacies. That's not to say we're paranoid to no end, we can have intellectual debate with our interlocutors without doubting every second word. It's just that we don't give you the benefit of the doubt.
@@Druzinski Bruh it is obvious , after thinking what all you said we will be left with two possibilities 1)the source is incorrect or 2) THE SOURCE IS CORRECT - then when we know that the source is correct we do the same thing he said .
That conversation was just really funny. And I commend that intj for refraining himself from tearing the argument up for the sake of being respectful to the interviewer's stance. basically from the video, the goal of the nf is not to "run home crying," because it is the intj's cold and calculated approach that causes the most harm. So in effect, the strategy is to distance oneself away from emotional harm. On the other hand, the intj values and perhaps craves conflict for its use in refining and perfecting goals and ideals; for intj there is nothing better than constructive criticism as it gives way to critical analysis that strengthens their own arguments and lends to self improvement simultaneously. Like 2 birds with 1 stone. The goal, I believe, should always be to communicate ones ideas as clearly as possible and to agree to disagree if it comes down to it. Neither party is irrational if it is all a matter of perspective, and if the goal is not to blindly win, but to be understood.
I think the best way to win a debate...is not win. Here is my strategy ask questions. Question the assumptions is huge. I find that works really well. And also using the word "so" drives NT's up a wall.
Maybe a bit. Or it could be that they don't value external harmony. Fe trickster. 7th function. So they prefer using something that doesn't seem so "warm"? Not sure. I see many INTJ's that prefer movies and anime's that lead more towards the darker vibe than many other types. I myself do this as well. For some reason I feel home with stuff that's "dark". Not 100% sure on this at all, but just a little theory. I find many things that's more "warm" to be cringy to be perfectly honest. Any thoughts on any of all this?
I'm an infj and this video really made me laugh because my boyfriend is an intj. I thought Mike made some really good points in this video but I would like to further explain some of the confusing or contradictory dialogue. First debating for an intj is about "winning" or, if proven wrong with facts, is about learning something new. Debating for an infj is about having their point of view heard, seen as worthy, and learning new points of view. INTJ's form their conclusions through facts in an a to b to c kind of logic, this is their system. INFJ's have a different system...I like to describe it like this...I learn a fact (from credible sources) then connect it to other facts through feelings or values. Once the connection is made I can come to the conclusion without having to think of the facts anymore. I simply ride the feeling connections, at some point I can't remember the exact fact only the general idea about the fact based on my feelings. This doesn't mean my conclusion isn't based on facts. If I am asked to recall a fact, I have to remember when I learned the fact, where I learned it, and how i felt at the time before I am really capable of even giving the general idea of the facts, since I'm sorting through a spiderweb of connections. In a debate, the only thing that INTJ's are interested in are facts and if you can't state the facts then you are wrong, if you take more than a second to think they jump all over you, and if you use feelings to connect the facts they think you are silly. In other words, there is no "winning" for the INFJ unless you schedule a debate, write down all the facts, and present them quickly and efficiently. INFJ's never, under any circumstance, get what they want which is to be accepted for their point of view. The only point in debating with an intj is to gain their admiration for being able to debate with them and "win" which isn't actually what we want to be admired for. So the point Mike is trying to make is that NF's should avoid getting caught up with trying to win because it will probably just frustrate you that no matter what you say INTJ's will not accept your point of view the way you want them to. To impress the INTJ in your life all you can really do is to show your accomplishments and share your opinions, hopefully with a fact prepared, in a non-debate form of dialogue. Like he said, it's best to just say "Yes that's right but there is more to it than that" or "that's a possible way of reasoning". You could even come back to this conversation later with your facts hence not letting the INTJ know they are right. Don't give in just because they are more passionate about winning because then you will just end up leaving the conversation not only looking unknowledgable but also mad that you couldn't express your point of view properly. This might make the INTJ's mad that they couldn't convince you with facts but you are likely just as mad that you couldn't convince them with your own system. Thus a stalemate!
This is how I think. Am I okay with this? Yes because I continue to come to the same conclusions as other people but usually faster or intuitively. At the time of learning something new, I will not integrate it into my system unless I know for sure that I understand everything about it.If can't do that and I try to recall the information later I have a feeling of doubt associated with it so I know that my opinion will not be fully informed and I let that be known. I am always open to new opinions and facts that I might not have considered before or that refute my feelings. In the world that I function the best in, gain the most value from, and have the greatest ability of interpretation is the world of human feeling which is full of contradictions or is illogical. I try to make room in my system for these contradictions though feelings. However, Interpreting facts via logic is obviously the preferred method of thinking. That is why is is the first step in the process but then I add on how it relates to the human sphere of emotion. The way in which I relate the two is based specifically on both my own experiences and the experiences of other people. I have an ability to know very well how another person is feeling even if they are experiencing multiple feeling at once through empathy. I would say that there are disadvantages in not being able to recall a logical flow of facts and I am working on that...especially since my boyfriend is an INTJ and looks at me like I am completely nonsensical sometimes. I find however that I am more well rounded than him which he agrees to. I get along with everyone I meet and have been told by many strangers that I am a great counselor. Ironically, most people, even professors, thinking that I am a thinker and not a feeler. I think this is mostly because they are are all mostly thinkers and I can reflect their moods and attitudes. I also highly value facts and logic as a basis for my system. I am Pre-Med with a major in biology and minor in biochemistry so I do have some capabilities to function in the strictly logical world. It is important to note though that I do poorly in math classes unless I can somehow relate it to an emotion. To be honest I'm not really sure what you mean by "If you only connect things with emotions then you can't know if you actually understand them or not." I hope I clarified things though.
As an INFJ in a "debate", my main goal is not to win. It is to present a different perspective (or three) to someone, to see things from a different perspective (or ten!) myself, and to find a workable solution that meets everyone's needs as much as possible. That way the conversation is constructive and useful. I tend not to waste my time either competing to "win" (although I can actually Logic pretty well...but logic isn't something that people necessarily care about when they are competing "intellectually" with someone else) or trying to sway/persuade/change someone's mind. Often people use tactics such as persistent repetition (kind of like a battering ram) or pedantic posing that completely circumvents any chance of practical resolution when speaking to someone not on the same esoteric inside track. Other times, they will even use their own personal experience as a sort of be-all and end-all and declare themselves correct/the "winner" because of first-hand knowledge. I believe that unacknowledged personal needs, insecurities and emotions play a part in all these behavioral patterns. Actually, those are all debate techniques I have witnessed family members using, so they are pretty familiar to me. None of them is purely based in logic, that's for sure. Not that logic is the supreme power of the universe, either, but it's one way to come at a problem, and one that I think often makes a lot of sense...as long as you consider other relevant factors as well. But back to debating in order to "win": I may elect to discuss a topic that is personally important to me, but if I can sense that someone is not open-minded about considering new information, I don't feel it's necessary to re-orient their compass, as it were. It's not my job.
I'm an INTJ and the only way to persuade me is on my terms. My terms may be wrong, but you're gonna have to show me. I'm more than willing to be wrong just for the sake of learning something new, but you're gonna have to work for it, because I only argue about things that I have thought intensely about. Sometimes, I have a strong intuition that my debating opponent is wrong, but I'm not exactly sure why. However, that "not exactly sure why" will burn me and force me to work out the solid reasoning why. The biggest problem I find with my debating partners is their undying faith in a single idea or principle and their inability to see the topic from different perspectives and angles. The INTJ is trying to balance as many perspectives as possible and that is likely why non-INTJ types fail. They simply aren't balancing much at all.
That is what everyone says however in stating your actions you create a view of the view itself and thereby a meta discussion. Will you acknowledge this meta discussion within the discussion itself though? In your own words whose truth and if winning isn't the goal then is losing. You must account for those other dimensions of conversation.
Okay I have to comment on everybody's comments and on this video. I am 33 years old a combat veteran. and I've been to seven different countries, lived in 4 different states, have the pleasure of getting to know hundreds of people, I just found out today that I am an INTJ.. I happened to stumble across this personality test while looking for an Asperger's test because I wanted to figure out why people have a hard time understanding me and why I feel different and have felt different my entire life. So I'm glad I finally got resolution and I'm not alone. But to think that these personality labels makes us better than the next? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. Anybody could be wrong in any topic. We are all human beings and no one is perfect. Just because I now know my personality label I am no way going to consider myself above the next person. Yes I consider myself very intelligent but that does not give me the right to belittle someone else. I go by facts. If I'm wrong and you justify it with fact, then I will humble myself and accept that I am wrong. What is wrong with all of you! Does your label exempt you from humility?
Is the premise that NF types aren't as capable of reasoned argument really sound, here? I know quite a few NF's who have argued their points well, convincing this INTJ that I was incorrect. They didn't play stupid or sound stupid; they related falsifiable facts using well crafted logic. I think this may be a disservice to both INTJs and NF types--not all INTJs are like the fellow in this video, and not all INFPs go home crying.
As an INTJ, I believe that an INFJ should use the F to their advantage when going against an INTJ (for whatever reason). The INFJ need only apply F to whatever the argument is about as the INTJ will likely not have considered that possible outcome because if they have then there isn't much of an argument to be made in the first place. Things can be quite indeterminable though if we're talking about straight up logical thinking as regardless of personality type, some INTJ are plain stupid.
As an INTJ, this strategy would work on me. If I'm trying to make a point or lead us to come to agreement on something and you start talking in metaphors or endless possibilities, I wouldn't know how to carry on the conversation with you. You wouldn't win (as I define "winning") the discussion, but you would achieve your goal of preserving your own dignity.
I'm an INTJ and after watching this I realized that there is another way to possibility thwart an INTJ without being another INTJ and still be respected by one or, dare i say it, change our opinion. Which would be winning by default... If anyone debates with an INTJ realize that we pull as much emotion out of the equation as possible. So the only way to thwart a thought or idea is to keep putting that emotion back in to the equation in a way that makes the INTJ think from a different perspective. We (INTJ) wouldn't discredit that thought right away unless we already factored that emotion in the equation. So to simply thwart an INTJ without being an INTJ, you need to force us to think more on the subject in a perspective that we haven't already thought about. You can achieve this sometimes with an emotional perspective that is still relevant to the equation. It's very difficult mind you, because we think of many possibilities and outcomes, but a clock that doesn't move can be right twice a day....
Hmm, I'm not sure about not being able to compete with them. One of my best mates is an INTJ, and we are about equal in intellect and rationality. I'm an INFJ.
My INTJ husband doesn't "get" people and their feelings as easily as I do (INFJ). Managing a group of people in an office environment is where NFs win over an INTJ. Great video. Alex has a great demeanor.
I am an INFJ and yes I agree that we can never beat them rationality-wise but our strength is in psychological reasoning, in explaining why people do what they do psychologically and how we could "read" people immediately. They theories is often (if not ever) inconsidering people aspects and that is how you could clam them up
I am an INTJ, and maybe this will make sense to some others... INTJs don't want to be right... they want to be BETTER. On one hand, this can be/seem arrogant. On the other hand, it is what make INTJs tick... improving things, more efficiency, better systems. Unfortunately in a debate, I'll admit an INTJ may crisscross these intentions with taking something personal... complex ideas seem to be important to us. I don't really like to debate, anyway. I like theory and making new interesting things, stories, etc... I'll leave the philosophy to the INTPs because they are a hell of a lot better at it.
INTJ here. The best way to piss us off in an online debate, is having a teenager argue with us but pretending to be much older than he/she really is. Used to drive me nuts in the past. But now it's easier to filter them out within the first coupla mins by asking specific questions. Then withdrawing and refusing to engage whenever I get a wrong answer to my filtering questions. Just a terrible waste of my time if I don't. lol
+MrHardCash This could lead to confirmation bias, however. I'm an INTJ as well. The main issue is demographics. Only 1% of people are intj and only 8% are NTs in general... So they can win over everyone around you and you are like that lone conservative guest on The View.
Teenagers are annoying, bitch, aren't they? Mindless little shits. Don't know a thing. As an INTJ teen, I'll say one of the most annoying things I've found is adults discounting my intelligence based on my age. If you're an INTJ, surely you felt that way when you were a teen?
6:25 "Where are your facts?" "Facts are the enemy of truth" This cracked me up, such an NF thing to say (and I say this as an NF). Alex's response is also a beautiful example of quite how repulsive the INTJ mind finds this sort of idea. I often think type theory is really a description of what a mind is attracted to or repulsed by. INTJs are truly superb at constructing a consistent rational argument from a set of assumptions, but in my experience they tend to just assume the assumptions. Common example, many INTJs I know assume philosophical materialism as the basis of their arguments ... but they present no empirical evidence for this assumption, after all how could they? I actually feel NFs have a very special relationship with "assumptions", and questioning assumptions is actually an NF strength. So I like to challenge the assumptions that the INTJ is using, the result tends to be a "draw", but it can be an interesting debate for both sides I think.
Ok I know this is a 3-year-old comment ... But you may be interested to know that not all INTJ's assume a materialist stance. There is certainly a sizable minority (though maybe not even a minority) who are drawn to forms of Idealism, pantheism, panentheism, unorthodox forms of spirituality, etc., perhaps because it seems quite natural to find the ideas our Ni subconsciously generates as more "real" than Se reality. However, your point about assuming the assumptions is a tautology, since assumptions are by definition assumed. I haven't actually known many people to assume philosophical materialism; more likely they believe that the scientific method works inductively (because it has been demonstrated to work in the past), so whatever science tells us about the world is more likely to be valid than methods of inquiry whose efficacy cannot be demonstrated. I would argue that "spiritual" INTJ's are likely to hold spiritual beliefs up to the same standard-- I.e., they are true because they have been demonstrated by experience to be effective.
i love the manner in which the discussion is done. both people enlightening, sharing, respecting, and laughing. you're looking back, and reflecting, after a debate, rather than being in the debate currently, which is when many of us get fixated. The negative emotions are not present here. It's very therapeutic. btw, as much as I've used NF and Fi words here, i am INTJ.
As an intj I argue or debate not because I want to win or prove the other wrong, but because emotions feelings aside, the facts are what they are! We are good because we seek first to side with the truth regardless usually what they are...they say a good general wins a war before it starts! Intj's usually won't defend what they think is wrong, incorrect or false usually so when they are happy to debate its because they are sure of their position.... If you want to beat us, don't defend lies!!! Or falsehood!!!
Facts are information, but truth may be something more abstract than that. Facts and truth are different things. Even though facts is a subgroup of truth, facts may not present the entire truth. I'm such an awesome INFP.
"There are trivial truths and there are great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." --Neils Bohr
I am an ENTJ and I know a couple INTJs and I LOVE INTJs and debating with them because both of us think rationally and can provide easily understandable alternatives to a theory, etc. It's almost like playing on an even playing ground, but with variations and different ways of "seeing" a problem, plus both of us generally respect the other afterwards. I tend to gravitate towards INTJs, though, which makes sense because I've never met another ENTJ.
Thanks for your response. However... could you be more specific with what you mean by 'appeal to his empathy'? In my view, that entails explaining my position so that the other party understands and thus, can empathize. In other words, by showing my flow of logic. But he didn't attempt to follow my logic and hence did not understand me. (I could be wrong and the reason's entirely different but this is what I believe happened)
+NFGeeks with Dr. Mike! Except for INFPs tho. I was hoping you would say I would win by REALLY believing, in my heart of hearts. Hmm.. Maybe that IS what you were saying. I believe you were!
_Can_ win does not mean that it is probabilistic that the NF will win. An INTJ will concede to even a child if they present a better argument, but the _probability_ of that occurring is just so low that its safe to say that it won't happen. (even though it can). The NF is indicating that can't win as a form of statistic improbability rather than mechanical impossibility. Their unfamiliarity with the NT method means they're walking into a situation that they hold a disadvantageous position. That unfamiliarity is met by the NT's detail tracking, if anything is conceded at any point, the NT will note it as a checkpoint, where they can "reload the conversation from last save" at. One thing that I've seen NFs do is use their iNtuitive sense to try to find holes in the NT's argument. Without correcting or defining terms they can ask all the questions (What, how why, etc) so that the NT may be forced to define conflicting terms, when trying to nail the NF to a definition, and become befuddled trying to re-establish the line of logic. -from another INTJ.
Is it possible for INFJ's to turn into INTJ? I tested myself months ago as INFJ and re-tested and now I'm an INTJ...somethings either wrong or right here.
I didn't quite get your points on if a healthy NF annoys an NT then the NT finds it interesting, attractive and healthy. Or INTJ specifically you said. Also why do you write 'does' as 'dose' and means as 'mains' and an as 'and'/ btw my shift key doesn't work so the slash is a question mark.
As an INTJ I wouldn't want to debate with myself, I'm the worst super active arguments counter arguments thrower. I think we are made for debate, we know all the tricks better than all types and we have tons of other tricks hidden on our sleeve. But, when someone prove me wrong I'm the most humble to accept and one of the best good loser. Thumbs up for no emotional debates and bringing the fact (plus sources and be sure there is not a little line on the source that we can use against your arguments).
A good trick is not get into the fight, or starting it but leaving it when you want without getting to much interested into debating or into our arguments. Not acting like debating is a survival thing. But don't give any emotional insight, we will notice immediately and play on spreading another sentimental reaction.
How about INTJs convincing NFs? To be specific, I'm an INTJ and there's an ENFJ who strongly believes I should be more extroverted and be more engaged in my surroundings. Yet I'm perfectly content with how I am and feel it's wrong to become something I'm not. I try to explain this to him; that it's my nature and I don't need to change it. Until now, he still firmly believes I should change and I have no idea how to get him to see my point.
My co-worker is an INTJ and the conversations almost always lead to some form of debate. It's funny because we would be talking/debating and I would just think to myself "Omg, this is me in Te mode, but on steroids" (I'm an INFP). It's maddening lol
I had a few debates with my father through out the years. He's an ESFJ and he just can't win a debate against me. I made him walk out the door a couple times because he was just too frustrated to keep trying. Thing is, if I'm debating something, it's because I know I'm right and that I have facts to back up my argument.
Hahahah, this video is fantastic! (It's gotten to a point where I watch it whenever I'm bored.) Lots of laughing while watching it. (And praying that none of my NF friends ever find it.) Can't say I agree with you on everything, but you didn't make the video so everyone would agree. (I'm not even your target audience!~) Still. Love it.
I am a ENFP with a best friend who is INTJ we have a very harmonious relationship, we are both very goal and achievement driven. I think from what I've found if you present accurate facts that are well thought, we inspire each other. We usually have a meeting of minds and they respect that, a my facts are quality and informative, It's like giving a INTJ a nice brain smoothie or wholesome piece of information meat. If we debate I usually present a logical fact with also a NF emotional or intuitive reason behind the debate, depending on the the content, sometimes if is purely facts, my INTJ supports and we enjoy testing fresh facts and theories together. Having a intuitive feeling and be a advantage for the NF as we can conceal or taylor information to guide the facts in a particular way that would make sense or leverage our philosophy within the discussion. Essentially INTJ synergise, support and encourage a ENFP / INTJ. If I actually don't know something I will ususally kindly say, " Would you like to teach me or explain your idea or theory" and to a INTJ this can be a relief and enjoyable as they love to learn and share ideas to create what NF's would call harmony, NT would call clear pathways or smart ways to get to each letter between A to B to Z etc. in complex or simple discussions, This can be very appealing to the ENFP as ENFP has brilliant ideas but benefits from the structure or architecture of a INTJ thought process, on the flip side, ENFP's are great buddies for expanding the INTJ's consciousness and encouraging them to get out the house, working towards fitness or work relationship goals, they are both very ambitious and industrious in a sense, they also have a high percentage for accuracy, finding the matching partner and someone with a high IQ / EQ to spar with, in philosophy, life, arts and culture, as they both need that stimulation. would love to know what you think, Alex is really cute also, lol ENFP's enjoy the cleanliness and grooming of INTJ from the INTJ's i've met. lol. Anyway, I do like the folding idea Mike, but for this ENFP I enjoy going on a adventure with my INTJ friends and INFJ's also we bridge the gap and have great potential to solve many of the worlds issues NF bringing the soul or EQ of how can we connect these causes to make a impact and get people behind our vision, and the NT / INTJ creates the branches and clearly develops a system that is fullproof for the ENFP to campaign and sell, Together I really love this combination I am a Eleon Musk fan, He is INTJ just by listening to his theories can be co soothing to a ENFP of NF becuse that take us to places with logic to places one wouldnt have traditionally gone in ones own mind, they see all facts as part of the whole on the flip of the NF :) Keep up the great show. Also would be great to see a love styles and compatibility in the types like ST / NF NF/NT etc. SP/NT Thank you for helping me :) J
I have only recently stumbled upon MBTI , after the age of 30 and have become fascinated by it. I had my family members take a test to find out their type as well. I am INTJ, my mother is an INFJ. That explains so much!! We are so similar in many ways yet, there also seems to be vast differences that cause us to argue and fight to no end. She often says things and expects me to take it as fact but I do not because there are no facts to back up the claim. She gets upset with me and accuses me of being argumentive or disrespectful, but I cannot believe her without a clear explanation of how she reached that conclusion. She just says she knows and that should be enough, (arrogance is common to this type as well in my expeirence) but I refuse and she takes it very personal. I can't say we really clarify our differences, but it's getting better. I don't trust feelings. She does. I believe they are misleading and should be put aside in arguments, but she goes on the hunch that feelings tell us where to go in seeking a truth. I don't buy that. Feelings are real, but deceptive. That is my take and as a result we continue to go round and round.
Okay...I'll let you in on a secret. It's a line from the musical, "The Man From La Mancha" which is a musical version of Don Quixote, which is one of my favorite books. It fits in well with the theme of the book and the musical very well, and I get it, so I like saying it from time to time.
A debate between an ENFP & an INTJ on the subject of how to effectively debate against an INTJ. What a hilarious video, I was cracking up the whole way through.
A little while ago I found a picture with the text: "INTJ's appear to be good at everything, but only because they won't allow themselves to be observed doing anything until they have become highly skilled at it." This is especially true for me, but is it true for every INTJ? Thanks, Jelte.
Haha, yeah. I've learned that lession too. I think it's sad that it's the state of things, but as long as I have one-two people I can have an intelligent discussion with, without them thinking it's an attack on their entire being, then I'm ok :) OT: How is it to have an INTP bf, btw? I imagine it would be quite frustrating at times?
oh wow i didnt realize this was directed at me :D. i do well when dealing with my sister ( intj, who i didnt grow up with. and i do also acknowledge she goes soft on me, im her sister). i feel like my mothers training camp has really done wonders for me. wow. and all this time i thought i was logically motivated. maybe it was her always engaging me in it, logic. wow :D. and that explains the time i knew i had her emotionally cornered a bit one time when she was telling me you could be/do anything when you grow up. and i brought up sherlock cuz she had been getting me into it at the time. and i was like but i couldnt be a detective. anyway she lied and said she thought i would make a great detective :D how funny and i also want to say i can corroborate your theories its exactly how i deal with my sister. (and the only reason i have to remain neutral and exercise the strategies is cuz her natural director side will go straight to hierarchy where shes the bee queen, lol and she will start trying to plan everything for everyone) But as far as switching around what you were initially establishing in the debate she does that too ive noticed. is that not suposed to be in the NT argument code? i thought it wasnt. My intp mom and entp ex would call it out to be very dastardly and proclaim being committed against such ethic monstrosity (my mom strictly only does it with the mon shes with. thats personal and allowable, alls fair in love and war she would say) :D i always just think its cute of my sister ( like kind of desperate and adorable. like when a baby kitten tries to play tuff and trips )
I am an INTJ and my fraternal twin sister is an ENTJ... WE DEBATE SO OFTEN! We are always intellectually communicating. We both think we are smarter and more rational than the other. We can debate on a subject for hours. On some controversial subjects we agree which is rare but if we agree we 100% agree on everything. Agree with Adam that you must state your fact to argue with an INTJ if you say opinion you are just going to go down.
omg i just simultaneously realized its my mom that blessed me with logic(?) and what a blessing being brought up by her was (she's an intp, im an infp) and how grateful i am ... simultaneously , now :D
Alex youre super cool! i came on here to learn Intj guys body language and i ran into this. im an Intj female and i am having a hard time with the dating world. i thought maybe meeting an Intj guy might fix this(but im not excluding the other types also). i wasnt sure if the guys body language is similar to the females. but yeah, Thanks. also Mike, your personality is so warm and loving. it shows through the video. thanks guys
@Mike.....given your theory on collectiveNF consciouness , was this debate strategy your idea, or a collaboration with your NF brethren? I have an INFJ friend unfamilier with your videos, and during a arguement I baited him and said....."so facts are the enemy of truth"? I shit you not, I was thinkiing about you! He looked at me stunned, and said "exactly", now you understand" LOL I love you Mike
Why not debate us INTJ on love or things in life and the universe without solid facts? After all life is still full of interesting questions with no answers, who knows? I look at the arguments below I figure why not let the INTP "win", at this point it's no longer about facts anyhow. The rationality I see in situations like that are: 1. This argument is a waste of time and effort, I could be watching a documentary or reading a book 2. This sucks the life out of me 3. I wonder what I should eat for dinner tonight
I was laughing at this so much! :) I am an NF, and it can be very funny debating with my INTJ friend, especially if we're making connections among seemingly super random things - I love that about Intuition! While I admire him for his natural strengths, he admires me for mine, particularly my warmth and enthusiasm to understand and help others. I think, though, he's skeptical and not always nice on the outside since he's secretly worried that others might take advantage and/or can't be trusted.
This was so funny!!! I'll remember those ninja moves next time. One of my best friends is an INTJ, it's just amazing how similar he is to Alex. I really admire INTJ's, they're on this neverending quest for clarity, and they're so cerebrally quick. And yeh, as an infp, before I new about myers briggs I would feel pretty dumb trying to do this verbal sparing thing with logic. It really is impossible, and now that I know this, I can just stick to what I'm good at, like English Lit, yay ambiguity!
Why on earth do NFs have to be imbeciles compared to NTs, its not as if we are apes and they are the "next generation of humans" what the hell. NFs, hopefully people realize, are not idiots, we're very smart thank you very much, just because we dont plot all the time doesnt mean we're idiots, it just means that there are other things to do
INTJ here. I don't believe that. One shouldn't go into the MBTI thing believing one type is superior. All types are equal, and all have strengths and weaknesses.
Hello Fellas, other observations.I think it is is possible to overemphasize type when developing a debating strategy.Remember, we are talking personality, not abilities or background knowledge.While taking into account personality is important, other things are at least as important, or even more so.Taking courses (or just reading), on debate, communication, and logic can really help your debate style.In addition, having a background on the subject you are debating is important as well.
As an INFP with a INTJ brother, you pretty much nailed what happens in our arguments. He wins through superior logic while I walk away dazed and depressed because I'm not rational enough to beat him. I like to think I'm a logical person too...
Wow the expression "INTJ nightmare" just summed up my thoughts, thank you very much for this deeply interesting conversation (or was is an interestingly deep conversation?).
Like I said, though, it isn't about winning for us (in most cases, judging by myself and the INTJs I know- can't speak for everyone), rather, increasing the knowledge base. Or honing the edge, whichever visual you prefer. Have you ever tried to simply tell an INTJ "I'm uncomfortable debating with you because ________, could we please discuss something else?" Because as it stands, your strategy will make the NF feel like a winner, but (cont)
This is a great video. I had to laugh several times over things that were funny but true. What I would like to see though is a video about us INTJs debating S types, especially ISTJ. What I can see is that ISTJs will not debate us INTJs - they just refuse to even look at or listen to facts that are in conflict with their beliefs, regardless of what facts we present.
I know...and you're not the first to notice that. Thus, when it comes up I want to explain it. But it seems that there has been no real criticism, just laughter, which is fine.
I just realized why INTJ-ENFP partners are so happy together. I love the intellectual chemistry between the two men. As an INTJ female I definitely want an ENFP in my life, they have very interesting personality.
He knows himself, hopefully, as well. INTJs don't need others telling them their smart. They know it, and they'll own it with no humility. Depending on the person.
Hahahahaha, hilarious!! I totally knew what you were talking about when you mentioned the pincer thing. Lastly, Alex is clearly an INTJ, through and through!
Hi.I am an INTJ myself and believe it or not,this subject is also useful for INTJs since occasionaly we find ourselves in a debate with other INTJ.A couple of commements.First,size up the INTJ.If you are well versed in a subject that your INTJ is not, then that is an advantage for you.Second,try to use concrete facts to argue against an INTJ's theory (this is especially good advice for Sensing types).Third,win by triggering cognitive dissonance in the INTJ even if they won't admit defeat.
First, I don't have to, nor should I, prove anything. That language already implies a power hierarchy over NF. This is because it puts you in the position of judge and jury. In addition, I also need not prove it because not only will that fail but because I don't need to for myself as an NF. NF seems to be the least translatable consciousness. The question I have to answer is whether or not this is authentic and a valid experience for me as an NF. And it is.
Ideology has many meanings (thanks to no foundational truth), but I would say that in this case I would use the meaning of the word as an attempt to have knowledge about ideas and not other definitions that suggest an internally logical set of ideas usually metaphysical in nature meant to bind a group together by creating an absolute truth about reality and the group's relation to it. These ideas could be used that way, I suppose. That is not my intention here, though.
INTJs are awesome. As an ENTP I almost never have to debate an INTJ especially if it is their own domain. I don't even try if they are an expert at what they do because I can bullshit a lot of people with a little knowledge but the INTJ will absolutely back it up. If you bullshit him or her or try to they will own you. The only way you can maybe win is some sort of shallow victory like an ENTP or an INTP trying to trip an INTJ up on semantics and facts. You must know your stuff to win though. The only other way is that an INTJ gets tunnel vision and usually an NT can use logic and put an INTJ more at center. That means if you bring the facts, they will change their opinion. I've had awesome conversations with INTJs and am kind of jealous of your ability to get shit done. You can make an INTJ feel guilty though but they usually messed up in a major way. That said, I'm funnier than my INTJ friend and can brainstorm faster.
Haha, defining terms is simply a must in debates. The English language in our modern day is unfortunately lacking in clarity of what one truly means to say. Depending on the context and background of the persons in the debate, terms must be clearly stated or confusion will surely arise. I have a science/math background and terms take on a very different meaning in the world of academics at least in this sense, oppose to everyday usage of a word/meaning in everyday language of the term.
+Sarah Faira I'd say in everyday life the issue isn't words having vague meanings, it's vague thoughts being put into words without enough concise boundaries to make the idea clear enough. Certainly, you can say "the soup is too cold" which is vague, but I could also say "The soup is 75 degrees, I find that too cold to enjoy eating." The issue wasn't me being able to find the words to precisely tell you the temperature, it was just the vague nature of being a human and assuming the other person knows what "cold soup" is. So uhh... as a fellow INTJ (especially seeing that you're a female INTJ) do you have trouble remembering names? I'm a male INTJ, can't remember names to save my life, I'm going to start asking other INTJs if they have the same issue.
+Jesse Crandle. I said what I mean. Defining terms is paramount because people will try to overly expand or twist words in an argument that has nothing to do with the point at hand. It's a common logical fallacy some use to try and win a debate, but I put a stop to it by calling them out and making them stick to a definition without trying to pull a fast one. As far as names are concerned, the older I get the less I remember. Memorization isn't my thing if it isn't relative to my interests or daily use. I remember names of people I like or care about, but if they are non-essential people to me, I don't remember because they have never left an impression upon me worth remembering.
Key point: feelers need to learn to talk about fairness, right or wrong. Thinkers need to learn to appreciate the good intention from feelers. To both sides, no matter how it seems insane, just do it after 6 months you will find yourself happier and be more balance.
I am a female INTJ. INTJ's are very talented poets and metaphoric story tellers. re: this video - You can't win, you can't dodge, you can't outlast us. You can talk all you want but we can drop the mic, leave the stage and still be right. You described a tap dance, not a strategy. I sat here waiting for an actual strategy and didn't hear one. It's amusing to me, like a cat watching a mouse running around in circles in a corner.
I wouldn't go so far as to assume I'm setting myself up for disappointment. Great thing about being a thoughtful INTJ is that I'm prepared to be let down. Also, not to say I'm not around smart people or that I'm not smart myself, but that the chances of me running into the likes of Pascal are slim to none. Well aware of the reasons of the heart, which completely explains my personal life as opposed to my work life.
INFJ here, I have years of experience with INTJs, About five years I'd say. The INTJ is right about, don't show emotion, don't show weakness. Hm, I think that NF types can debate with an INTJ, my advice is to come to the argument prepared -there is google after all. If an argument starts before you have researched, don't act like you know what you are talking about. Instead just be straightforward "I'll have to get back to you on this" the INTJ can't argue with that.
I'm an ENFP and my brother is an INTJ. Sometimes I would be sitting in my room reading a book and he would come to my door to start a debate about something random. It took me a good minute to realize that he was just bored and I was his entertainment. I think it's safe to say that someone who is logical does not necessarily have the right reasoning. Sometimes NTs mistake myths for facts. That's when an informed NF has the upperhand. I love my INTJ brother, but he is not exempt from this.
I am supposedly an INTJ and for me consistency is far more important than facts. Facts can be manipulated and twisted to fit a person’s argument. If the facts are not consistent or the logic behind how the facts are weaved together in an argument is flawed it will be unraveled.
As an ENFP with an INTJ husband, I was giggling like a crazy over this. My problem is that my husband does not want to even entertain a theory without terms being defined. Now I have a better strategy! Mwahaha! And, also, even though my husband looks nothing like the INTJ in this video, he has all the same facial expressions.
Sorry I'm not the person this question is directed at (I am also an INTJ), but I believe that -under the circumstances you suggested- the only way the pursuit of such knowledge could be justified is through passing said knowledge on in hopes of it reaching someone who CAN somehow change said matter.
I'm an ENFJ. I personally am not really concerned with "winning". I do enjoy discussions and questioning an and considering ideas. I always saw it as a good way to get to the truth. I find it helpful to bounce ideas off people and question theirs. I would agree with your reasoning and believe both people grow. I actually find INTJs quite respectful where as some would resort to personal attacks when questioned. They might find it annoying because being logical is my weakness so I don't even try.
I am amused that people are so stuck on 'winning', when that seems to me to be beside the point... it is all simply information-gathering or information-sharing to me (INTP). :D
From my experience (I'm an INTJ), any type, given enough practice and training, can do something that isn't natural for them and even "beat" someone who does something naturally. It just takes a whole lot more effort in general. There is one or two INFPs who have swayed/beaten me through logic and reason several times. Their background is Computer Science, so they've been trained to think logically even if it's not their preference.
I think I provided inadequate information. I see the sparks fly between those two all the time. The man is twelve years her senior, so I think that's where the superiority comes into the picture. It's obvious he respects her. When I get back post-Christmas, I'll be keepingwhat you said in mind. while also making sure the INTJ never tries to give me a subtle compliment put-down. I'd love to see him try. ~ENTP coworker / smirking observer
Definition of "winning an argument" should be a basic and common premise, where both parties know that in order to win, they have to have a rational or propose a rational argument cited with direct or logical explanations that when compared to there opponent is superior.
INTP here. One thing that I've learned recently in "How to argue and win every time" is that it's important to change your definition of winning an argument. Never was this idea of having different definitions of winning an argument more clear than here. If I were to guess, to an NT, winning consists of causing your opponent to admit you're right and going home weeping. (to exaggerate) For this NF, winning is getting the NT to stop bugging you.
As an INTJ and a debater i am astonished by the ignorance surrounding my type. First, we have feelings, we just choose to not show, or make a show out of them to sway someone when logic is clearly more effective. Also, we dont argue for self validation or for the sake of winning, we argue because we feel that the opponent is incorrect, and their case violates our personal beliefs. Therefore ur tactic will never work, because if an INTJ is involved in a debate they wont give up because of stupid arguments or get tired, thry defend what they believe until they think it is no longer correct.
+ron free Not so entirely true... if I think I'm defending a correct idea against an idiot I'll just call it a loss and walk away. The world is such a messed up place there's obviously billions of people with billions of incorrect theories, assumptions, ideas, that all add to how things are, so typically I just give up.
Let me put it this way: it's risk reward. Convincing someone I don't know that well especially of an idea.. if they don't want to see the truth then at a certain point I'm calling it quits. No need to try and teach a chicken to read Shakespeare, it's not going to happen.
Let me start off by saying I don't just go up to anyone who I know is wrong. I chose my fights based on 1) If its a person who I know will be receptive 2) If its something important. Dont get me wrong if someone says 2+2=5 I will correct them, but I will use a calculator to do so, so if they wanna argue about it they can take it up with the calculator. And I believe if its something worth arguing about in the first place, then its worth seeing it through till the end. Typically I wouldn't start an argument with a stranger, I start an argument if its a person I know or care about, and if I am strongly convicted that why I am arguing is because I am invested in a person and want to help them see something from a different perspective. Thats something else, if I am arguing something, its not with the intent to pummel someone into submission with what I'm saying, its to get them to think about it.
Ron you have a very good point. I don't engage someone whose brain is clearly not connected to his mouth. You can't educate a parrot (and unfortunately many of the most vocal people have few ideas that were not handed to them by the media or their friends, or sadly even their professors). If someone is thinking and willing to consider reality with his own mind, no matter what the herd is doing, that is a worthy person to invest your time and ideas into.
And seriously, what can be gained by arguing with someone who can't understand what you are arguing about? Might as well talk to the wall. An honest investigating mind is rare and valuable. Such a one will be swayed by valid facts and reason.
Tim, you express my opinion on this exactly. I've learned to avoid having an argumentative disposition entirely with most people (except other NT's, I suppose), because it ultimately doesn't matter very much to me whether someone is persuaded ... I just want the satisfaction of knowing that I've at least TRIED to give a Te representation to what Ni is telling me. Also it's always nice when, in the course of time, circumstances prove you right. Then, if you weren't an jerk earlier, people will come to respect your insight even if they can't always follow your logic.
Ikr. Hahaha.
Fear not. They are not INTJs. They have a hard time understanding anything, let's give them time to evolve.
& don't get started on an argument with the INTJ, just ask for a solution they'll help you if you are a good person in his eyes.
Right.
😊🍻😊
This should be called how to troll an INTJ
I have to agree with Alex here. Winning by default seems incredibly cruel. If an INTJ is debating you, they aren't doing it simply to debate. They don't like wasting their own time or the time of anyone else. If the topic or the person is important to them, that's when they put in the effort and give up their time. So, in winning by default and playing dumb, you are insulting them; and, trust me when I say this, they do know it's happening. They just won't always point that fact out. Eventually that kind of thing can also destroy friendships with them, confuse them, and cause them to lose interest in you because the logic becomes something that they can't reconcile. From an INTJ; debating is a show of respect when it's an area they are knowledgeable on, just as much as an unwillingness to debate is a show of respect when they haven't had a good chance to give a topic enough consideration.
Just be direct and admit when you don't know something. Be honest with them instead of trying to win. I will honestly tell you that I never debate with the intention or goal of 'winning'. Winning is for video games, learning new things, and career ladder climbing. My goal is to clarify misunderstandings, to help someone else not look ridiculous, or to resolve situations where I think someone may be in danger. I spend an extensive amount of time thinking about things, and in sharing them I am saving you that trouble or at least attempting to.
Not knowing something doesn't mean that you are wrong; it just means that you don't know. Maybe it's even not so much that one of you is wrong. Maybe it's that both of you are right from your own approaches, possibly even in complete agreement, and simply can't bridge the communication gap to come to that understanding. Just learn when to admit it.
Neither one of you has to win and an INTJ would respect you more for your honesty. An INTJ who is willing to debate with you would offer you the same courtesy, so as not to waste your time or give you poorly thought-through information.
INTJs are naturally intimidating and that can sometimes lead people to believe that we need to win. This is not the case. We like to win, but it's not a need; as expressed by the fact that we very much enjoy being proven wrong.
Playing dumb and winning by default can also come across as mockery, even if that isn't your intent. He really underplays just how hurtful it can be. More so if the reason for debating is due to respect for the other person. Not so much, if at all, if it's just for the topic.
Well said. I agree completely. Personally, I hold the truth and logic in much higher regards than my own ego or desire to be right. It’s disappointing when others perceive me as trying to be intellectually dominant. That’s not my intention at all. Sure, it’s nice to win an argument. It has less to do with asserting my will over others than it does with being happy that my own mental faculties are working properly. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. No problem. I think the problem is a lot of people dislike being wrong more than we ever enjoy being right, which is often because we typically won’t engage unless we have good reason to do so.
i am an INTJ. I hope Alex is not representative about how smug INTJs are. This dude is just so self-assured it pains me. INTJs may contemplate the possibility of their being wrong in face of emotional, irrational or religious arguments if they realise that logic and rational argumentation are limited in their scope to yield a comprehensive view of the world. An INTJ need not be baffled by the idea that "facts are the enemy of truth". What is a fact? Why is a fact true? Who decides what is a fact and what isn't? INTJs can be open-minded and, in fact, should be, because otherwise they hang on to their preconceptions and are imprisoned by them. An INTJ is open-minded if she is open to doubt her most cherished assumptions.
I have to question whether you're really an INTJ.
@@Di_bear That is such an inappropriate question , have you seen any other type talk something anything like that .
hes so smug that i felt even more disheartened for the intj types.
Facts are true by definition. That is what a fact is. Your series of questions about facts points to someone believing something is a fact when it isn't. Yes, that would lead them to a wrong conclusion, but it was really a falsehood that led them astray, not an actual fact. Facts aren't the enemy of truth, they are an absolute requirement in determining truth.
You can also start out with actual facts, but fail in your logic and reasoning to find truth from those facts. Once again, the enemy of truth is not actual facts.
Truth is found with actual facts followed by proper logic and reasoning. So the ultimate path to truth, requires facts. It's not the enemy of truth.
@@m4lev0lentdem0nknightamv5,
Why is that an inappropriate question? The comment from Chris K doesn't sound remotely like I would expect from our personality type.
"facts are the enemy of truth" is not a logical statement. Facts are required for truth and thus are the greatest ally of truth.
"What is a fact" - It's a true statement.
"Why is a fact true" - because that is the definition of what a fact is.
"Who decides what is a fact and what isn't?" - reality. Facts can be tested to verify that they are true.
These are not INTJ like questions.
I've questioned two others that have made non-INTJ like comments while stating they were INTJ and they both let me know that they sometimes test as INFJ, so are very borderline. The comments that made me question if they were INTJ were very much in line with INFJ.
Im an ENFP and have actually won debates against INTJ's, but this is only because I was not supporting a whimsical idea against their argument they just so happened to be wrong in the first place and all I had to do was point out the loopholes in their argument. The only way to win in an argument with an INTJ as an ENFP is to be right in the first place which generally doesn't happen with the INTJ, but will periodically simply because of humanic limitations. The truth is the only thing worth saying anyways so fellow NF's stop trying to make your whimsical assumptions a truth by presenting it creatively, because if its wrong its wrong your not going to confuse them.
+Alex Graham As an INTJ, this is precisely why I've appreciated the "cutting to root of my nonsense, brought to you by your local ENFP."
Sheesh, you can say that again.
"The only way to win in an argument with an INTJ as an ENFP is to be right in the first place"
Exactly. The ultimate goal of an INTJ in a discussion is not to "win", but to expand our understanding of the subject. If you win because you have facts that we do not have, or better logic and reasoning, then we will (ultimately) appreciate "losing".
Lol! My ex-boyfriend was an INTJ, and I'm an INFP. And I remember saying "I'm not wrong just because I'm crying, I can think and cry at the same time!".
Bara Lyra I had to come up with arguments for my ex during our fights. I had to argue myself into a default win for her.
glad you dumped the incel
I'm an INTJ, and you are telling me your secrets. You secret debating techniques are now mine to refute.
Techniques? The only 'technique' I heard was emotion emotion emotion. ;3
ShiveringGaze27 Yes. I wrote the comment before I watched the video.
Revan Revaillac Spoken like a true INTJ!
I am an ENFP and my dad is an INTJ. Imagine my childhood.
The first thing an INTJ does when presented with a fact that enunciates new relevant data
- You are correct
easy win, you just have to know what you are talking about and get your facts very well researched
Well I would argue that, in the face of a person that is usually unconvincing in their arguments or naive in their believes, an INTJ would first and foremost doubt the source of information being referred to. Even with scientific backup, we are well aware of human errors such as confirmation bias or other fallacies. That's not to say we're paranoid to no end, we can have intellectual debate with our interlocutors without doubting every second word. It's just that we don't give you the benefit of the doubt.
@@Druzinski Bruh it is obvious , after thinking what all you said we will be left with two possibilities 1)the source is incorrect or 2) THE SOURCE IS CORRECT - then when we know that the source is correct we do the same thing he said .
That conversation was just really funny. And I commend that intj for refraining himself from tearing the argument up for the sake of being respectful to the interviewer's stance. basically from the video, the goal of the nf is not to "run home crying," because it is the intj's cold and calculated approach that causes the most harm. So in effect, the strategy is to distance oneself away from emotional harm. On the other hand, the intj values and perhaps craves conflict for its use in refining and perfecting goals and ideals; for intj there is nothing better than constructive criticism as it gives way to critical analysis that strengthens their own arguments and lends to self improvement simultaneously. Like 2 birds with 1 stone. The goal, I believe, should always be to communicate ones ideas as clearly as possible and to agree to disagree if it comes down to it. Neither party is irrational if it is all a matter of perspective, and if the goal is not to blindly win, but to be understood.
I think the best way to win a debate...is not win. Here is my strategy ask questions. Question the assumptions is huge. I find that works really well. And also using the word "so" drives NT's up a wall.
Okay. I just have to say. I am highly amused that the INTJ is wearing black and drinking wine. That's just awesome. Got to keep up our image! >:-)
Hahaha just realised that, hilarious.
yeah, shouldn't he be drinking Dos Equis ... if he's going to drink while arguing and wearing black :?)
xD
Bright Waves of Darkness maybe the lack of need for embellishments. Simple. Direct.
Maybe a bit. Or it could be that they don't value external harmony. Fe trickster. 7th function. So they prefer using something that doesn't seem so "warm"? Not sure. I see many INTJ's that prefer movies and anime's that lead more towards the darker vibe than many other types. I myself do this as well. For some reason I feel home with stuff that's "dark". Not 100% sure on this at all, but just a little theory. I find many things that's more "warm" to be cringy to be perfectly honest. Any thoughts on any of all this?
I'm an infj and this video really made me laugh because my boyfriend is an intj. I thought Mike made some really good points in this video but I would like to further explain some of the confusing or contradictory dialogue. First debating for an intj is about "winning" or, if proven wrong with facts, is about learning something new. Debating for an infj is about having their point of view heard, seen as worthy, and learning new points of view. INTJ's form their conclusions through facts in an a to b to c kind of logic, this is their system. INFJ's have a different system...I like to describe it like this...I learn a fact (from credible sources) then connect it to other facts through feelings or values. Once the connection is made I can come to the conclusion without having to think of the facts anymore. I simply ride the feeling connections, at some point I can't remember the exact fact only the general idea about the fact based on my feelings. This doesn't mean my conclusion isn't based on facts. If I am asked to recall a fact, I have to remember when I learned the fact, where I learned it, and how i felt at the time before I am really capable of even giving the general idea of the facts, since I'm sorting through a spiderweb of connections. In a debate, the only thing that INTJ's are interested in are facts and if you can't state the facts then you are wrong, if you take more than a second to think they jump all over you, and if you use feelings to connect the facts they think you are silly. In other words, there is no "winning" for the INFJ unless you schedule a debate, write down all the facts, and present them quickly and efficiently. INFJ's never, under any circumstance, get what they want which is to be accepted for their point of view. The only point in debating with an intj is to gain their admiration for being able to debate with them and "win" which isn't actually what we want to be admired for. So the point Mike is trying to make is that NF's should avoid getting caught up with trying to win because it will probably just frustrate you that no matter what you say INTJ's will not accept your point of view the way you want them to. To impress the INTJ in your life all you can really do is to show your accomplishments and share your opinions, hopefully with a fact prepared, in a non-debate form of dialogue. Like he said, it's best to just say "Yes that's right but there is more to it than that" or "that's a possible way of reasoning". You could even come back to this conversation later with your facts hence not letting the INTJ know they are right. Don't give in just because they are more passionate about winning because then you will just end up leaving the conversation not only looking unknowledgable but also mad that you couldn't express your point of view properly. This might make the INTJ's mad that they couldn't convince you with facts but you are likely just as mad that you couldn't convince them with your own system. Thus a stalemate!
This is how I think. Am I okay with this? Yes because I continue to come to the same conclusions as other people but usually faster or intuitively. At the time of learning something new, I will not integrate it into my system unless I know for sure that I understand everything about it.If can't do that and I try to recall the information later I have a feeling of doubt associated with it so I know that my opinion will not be fully informed and I let that be known. I am always open to new opinions and facts that I might not have considered before or that refute my feelings.
In the world that I function the best in, gain the most value from, and have the greatest ability of interpretation is the world of human feeling which is full of contradictions or is illogical. I try to make room in my system for these contradictions though feelings. However, Interpreting facts via logic is obviously the preferred method of thinking. That is why is is the first step in the process but then I add on how it relates to the human sphere of emotion. The way in which I relate the two is based specifically on both my own experiences and the experiences of other people. I have an ability to know very well how another person is feeling even if they are experiencing multiple feeling at once through empathy. I would say that there are disadvantages in not being able to recall a logical flow of facts and I am working on that...especially since my boyfriend is an INTJ and looks at me like I am completely nonsensical sometimes. I find however that I am more well rounded than him which he agrees to. I get along with everyone I meet and have been told by many strangers that I am a great counselor. Ironically, most people, even professors, thinking that I am a thinker and not a feeler. I think this is mostly because they are are all mostly thinkers and I can reflect their moods and attitudes. I also highly value facts and logic as a basis for my system. I am Pre-Med with a major in biology and minor in biochemistry so I do have some capabilities to function in the strictly logical world. It is important to note though that I do poorly in math classes unless I can somehow relate it to an emotion.
To be honest I'm not really sure what you mean by "If you only connect things with emotions then you can't know if you actually understand them or not." I hope I clarified things though.
You wrote 2 whole book reports on a video that looks like it was filmed during the 80s
@@jackjill843 ,
That's a part of being an INFJ and also an INTJ. When I (INTJ) have a discussion with my INFJ niece, we can go for hours.
As an INFJ in a "debate", my main goal is not to win.
It is to present a different perspective (or three) to someone, to see things from a different perspective (or ten!) myself, and to find a workable solution that meets everyone's needs as much as possible. That way the conversation is constructive and useful.
I tend not to waste my time either competing to "win" (although I can actually Logic pretty well...but logic isn't something that people necessarily care about when they are competing "intellectually" with someone else) or trying to sway/persuade/change someone's mind.
Often people use tactics such as persistent repetition (kind of like a battering ram) or pedantic posing that completely circumvents any chance of practical resolution when speaking to someone not on the same esoteric inside track. Other times, they will even use their own personal experience as a sort of be-all and end-all and declare themselves correct/the "winner" because of first-hand knowledge. I believe that unacknowledged personal needs, insecurities and emotions play a part in all these behavioral patterns.
Actually, those are all debate techniques I have witnessed family members using, so they are pretty familiar to me. None of them is purely based in logic, that's for sure.
Not that logic is the supreme power of the universe, either, but it's one way to come at a problem, and one that I think often makes a lot of sense...as long as you consider other relevant factors as well.
But back to debating in order to "win":
I may elect to discuss a topic that is personally important to me, but if I can sense that someone is not open-minded about considering new information, I don't feel it's necessary to re-orient their compass, as it were. It's not my job.
I'm an INTJ and the only way to persuade me is on my terms. My terms may be wrong, but you're gonna have to show me. I'm more than willing to be wrong just for the sake of learning something new, but you're gonna have to work for it, because I only argue about things that I have thought intensely about. Sometimes, I have a strong intuition that my debating opponent is wrong, but I'm not exactly sure why. However, that "not exactly sure why" will burn me and force me to work out the solid reasoning why. The biggest problem I find with my debating partners is their undying faith in a single idea or principle and their inability to see the topic from different perspectives and angles. The INTJ is trying to balance as many perspectives as possible and that is likely why non-INTJ types fail. They simply aren't balancing much at all.
If I'm debating I'm trying to find the truth; so winning isn't the goal. I'm ENFP. I more relate to the intj here in this video.
That is what everyone says however in stating your actions you create a view of the view itself and thereby a meta discussion. Will you acknowledge this meta discussion within the discussion itself though? In your own words whose truth and if winning isn't the goal then is losing. You must account for those other dimensions of conversation.
Okay I have to comment on everybody's comments and on this video. I am 33 years old a combat veteran. and I've been to seven different countries, lived in 4 different states, have the pleasure of getting to know hundreds of people, I just found out today that I am an INTJ.. I happened to stumble across this personality test while looking for an Asperger's test because I wanted to figure out why people have a hard time understanding me and why I feel different and have felt different my entire life. So I'm glad I finally got resolution and I'm not alone. But to think that these personality labels makes us better than the next? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. Anybody could be wrong in any topic. We are all human beings and no one is perfect. Just because I now know my personality label I am no way going to consider myself above the next person. Yes I consider myself very intelligent but that does not give me the right to belittle someone else. I go by facts. If I'm wrong and you justify it with fact, then I will humble myself and accept that I am wrong. What is wrong with all of you! Does your label exempt you from humility?
Is the premise that NF types aren't as capable of reasoned argument really sound, here? I know quite a few NF's who have argued their points well, convincing this INTJ that I was incorrect. They didn't play stupid or sound stupid; they related falsifiable facts using well crafted logic. I think this may be a disservice to both INTJs and NF types--not all INTJs are like the fellow in this video, and not all INFPs go home crying.
As an INTJ, I believe that an INFJ should use the F to their advantage when going against an INTJ (for whatever reason). The INFJ need only apply F to whatever the argument is about as the INTJ will likely not have considered that possible outcome because if they have then there isn't much of an argument to be made in the first place.
Things can be quite indeterminable though if we're talking about straight up logical thinking as regardless of personality type, some INTJ are plain stupid.
"You shouldn't do that"
"Why"
"BECAUSE IT'S WRONG!"
loooool.
As an INTJ, this strategy would work on me. If I'm trying to make a point or lead us to come to agreement on something and you start talking in metaphors or endless possibilities, I wouldn't know how to carry on the conversation with you. You wouldn't win (as I define "winning") the discussion, but you would achieve your goal of preserving your own dignity.
I'm an INTJ and after watching this I realized that there is another way to possibility thwart an INTJ without being another INTJ and still be respected by one or, dare i say it, change our opinion. Which would be winning by default...
If anyone debates with an INTJ realize that we pull as much emotion out of the equation as possible. So the only way to thwart a thought or idea is to keep putting that emotion back in to the equation in a way that makes the INTJ think from a different perspective. We (INTJ) wouldn't discredit that thought right away unless we already factored that emotion in the equation.
So to simply thwart an INTJ without being an INTJ, you need to force us to think more on the subject in a perspective that we haven't already thought about. You can achieve this sometimes with an emotional perspective that is still relevant to the equation. It's very difficult mind you, because we think of many possibilities and outcomes, but a clock that doesn't move can be right twice a day....
Hmm, I'm not sure about not being able to compete with them. One of my best mates is an INTJ, and we are about equal in intellect and rationality. I'm an INFJ.
My INTJ husband doesn't "get" people and their feelings as easily as I do (INFJ). Managing a group of people in an office environment is where NFs win over an INTJ. Great video. Alex has a great demeanor.
I am an INFJ and yes I agree that we can never beat them rationality-wise but our strength is in psychological reasoning, in explaining why people do what they do psychologically and how we could "read" people immediately. They theories is often (if not ever) inconsidering people aspects and that is how you could clam them up
I am an INTJ, and maybe this will make sense to some others... INTJs don't want to be right... they want to be BETTER. On one hand, this can be/seem arrogant. On the other hand, it is what make INTJs tick... improving things, more efficiency, better systems. Unfortunately in a debate, I'll admit an INTJ may crisscross these intentions with taking something personal... complex ideas seem to be important to us. I don't really like to debate, anyway. I like theory and making new interesting things, stories, etc... I'll leave the philosophy to the INTPs because they are a hell of a lot better at it.
INTJ here. The best way to piss us off in an online debate, is having a teenager argue with us but pretending to be much older than he/she really is. Used to drive me nuts in the past. But now it's easier to filter them out within the first coupla mins by asking specific questions. Then withdrawing and refusing to engage whenever I get a wrong answer to my filtering questions. Just a terrible waste of my time if I don't. lol
+MrHardCash This could lead to confirmation bias, however. I'm an INTJ as well. The main issue is demographics. Only 1% of people are intj and only 8% are NTs in general... So they can win over everyone around you and you are like that lone conservative guest on The View.
Teenagers are annoying, bitch, aren't they? Mindless little shits. Don't know a thing.
As an INTJ teen, I'll say one of the most annoying things I've found is adults discounting my intelligence based on my age. If you're an INTJ, surely you felt that way when you were a teen?
The book shelf in the back is very nice, but how do you remove a book from the top shelf? ☺
By tilting it, that's all.
6:25 "Where are your facts?" "Facts are the enemy of truth"
This cracked me up, such an NF thing to say (and I say this as an NF). Alex's response is also a beautiful example of quite how repulsive the INTJ mind finds this sort of idea. I often think type theory is really a description of what a mind is attracted to or repulsed by.
INTJs are truly superb at constructing a consistent rational argument from a set of assumptions, but in my experience they tend to just assume the assumptions. Common example, many INTJs I know assume philosophical materialism as the basis of their arguments ... but they present no empirical evidence for this assumption, after all how could they? I actually feel NFs have a very special relationship with "assumptions", and questioning assumptions is actually an NF strength. So I like to challenge the assumptions that the INTJ is using, the result tends to be a "draw", but it can be an interesting debate for both sides I think.
***** How very INTJ :)
Ok I know this is a 3-year-old comment ... But you may be interested to know that not all INTJ's assume a materialist stance. There is certainly a sizable minority (though maybe not even a minority) who are drawn to forms of Idealism, pantheism, panentheism, unorthodox forms of spirituality, etc., perhaps because it seems quite natural to find the ideas our Ni subconsciously generates as more "real" than Se reality.
However, your point about assuming the assumptions is a tautology, since assumptions are by definition assumed. I haven't actually known many people to assume philosophical materialism; more likely they believe that the scientific method works inductively (because it has been demonstrated to work in the past), so whatever science tells us about the world is more likely to be valid than methods of inquiry whose efficacy cannot be demonstrated. I would argue that "spiritual" INTJ's are likely to hold spiritual beliefs up to the same standard-- I.e., they are true because they have been demonstrated by experience to be effective.
i love the manner in which the discussion is done. both people enlightening, sharing, respecting, and laughing. you're looking back, and reflecting, after a debate, rather than being in the debate currently, which is when many of us get fixated. The negative emotions are not present here.
It's very therapeutic.
btw, as much as I've used NF and Fi words here, i am INTJ.
As an intj I argue or debate not because I want to win or prove the other wrong, but because emotions feelings aside, the facts are what they are! We are good because we seek first to side with the truth regardless usually what they are...they say a good general wins a war before it starts! Intj's usually won't defend what they think is wrong, incorrect or false usually so when they are happy to debate its because they are sure of their position.... If you want to beat us, don't defend lies!!! Or falsehood!!!
Facts are information, but truth may be something more abstract than that. Facts and truth are different things. Even though facts is a subgroup of truth, facts may not present the entire truth. I'm such an awesome INFP.
"There are trivial truths and there are great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true."
--Neils Bohr
Agreed. Facts exist within and are dependent on paradigms.
I am an ENTJ and I know a couple INTJs and I LOVE INTJs and debating with them because both of us think rationally and can provide easily understandable alternatives to a theory, etc. It's almost like playing on an even playing ground, but with variations and different ways of "seeing" a problem, plus both of us generally respect the other afterwards. I tend to gravitate towards INTJs, though, which makes sense because I've never met another ENTJ.
There are out going people who reason their own value system. Depends on which questionnaire you use. They are not shy.
Thanks for your response. However... could you be more specific with what you mean by 'appeal to his empathy'? In my view, that entails explaining my position so that the other party understands and thus, can empathize. In other words, by showing my flow of logic. But he didn't attempt to follow my logic and hence did not understand me. (I could be wrong and the reason's entirely different but this is what I believe happened)
I dont want to hurt your feelings or anything, but this is a really dumb idea.
Pedro S You smart. Me dumb. So sorry.
NFGeeks with Dr. Mike! I said nothing about your person, I dont know you. But this isn't a very good idea for debates.
+Pedro S Typical F. Lol. He thinks you're targeting him, not his idea.
At point are NT's going to clue in on this; a) this is partly a farce, b)NF's don't care about debates at all.
+NFGeeks with Dr. Mike! Except for INFPs tho. I was hoping you would say I would win by REALLY believing, in my heart of hearts. Hmm.. Maybe that IS what you were saying. I believe you were!
_Can_ win does not mean that it is probabilistic that the NF will win. An INTJ will concede to even a child if they present a better argument, but the _probability_ of that occurring is just so low that its safe to say that it won't happen. (even though it can).
The NF is indicating that can't win as a form of statistic improbability rather than mechanical impossibility. Their unfamiliarity with the NT method means they're walking into a situation that they hold a disadvantageous position. That unfamiliarity is met by the NT's detail tracking, if anything is conceded at any point, the NT will note it as a checkpoint, where they can "reload the conversation from last save" at.
One thing that I've seen NFs do is use their iNtuitive sense to try to find holes in the NT's argument. Without correcting or defining terms they can ask all the questions (What, how why, etc) so that the NT may be forced to define conflicting terms, when trying to nail the NF to a definition, and become befuddled trying to re-establish the line of logic.
-from another INTJ.
Is it possible for INFJ's to turn into INTJ? I tested myself months ago as INFJ and re-tested and now I'm an INTJ...somethings either wrong or right here.
I didn't quite get your points on if a healthy NF annoys an NT then the NT finds it interesting, attractive and healthy. Or INTJ specifically you said. Also why do you write 'does' as 'dose' and means as 'mains' and an as 'and'/
btw my shift key doesn't work so the slash is a question mark.
As an INTJ I wouldn't want to debate with myself, I'm the worst super active arguments counter arguments thrower. I think we are made for debate, we know all the tricks better than all types and we have tons of other tricks hidden on our sleeve. But, when someone prove me wrong I'm the most humble to accept and one of the best good loser. Thumbs up for no emotional debates and bringing the fact (plus sources and be sure there is not a little line on the source that we can use against your arguments).
A good trick is not get into the fight, or starting it but leaving it when you want without getting to much interested into debating or into our arguments. Not acting like debating is a survival thing. But don't give any emotional insight, we will notice immediately and play on spreading another sentimental reaction.
How about INTJs convincing NFs? To be specific, I'm an INTJ and there's an ENFJ who strongly believes I should be more extroverted and be more engaged in my surroundings. Yet I'm perfectly content with how I am and feel it's wrong to become something I'm not. I try to explain this to him; that it's my nature and I don't need to change it. Until now, he still firmly believes I should change and I have no idea how to get him to see my point.
My co-worker is an INTJ and the conversations almost always lead to some form of debate. It's funny because we would be talking/debating and I would just think to myself "Omg, this is me in Te mode, but on steroids" (I'm an INFP). It's maddening lol
I had a few debates with my father through out the years. He's an ESFJ and he just can't win a debate against me. I made him walk out the door a couple times because he was just too frustrated to keep trying. Thing is, if I'm debating something, it's because I know I'm right and that I have facts to back up my argument.
Hahahah, this video is fantastic! (It's gotten to a point where I watch it whenever I'm bored.)
Lots of laughing while watching it. (And praying that none of my NF friends ever find it.)
Can't say I agree with you on everything, but you didn't make the video so everyone would agree. (I'm not even your target audience!~)
Still. Love it.
I take back what I said! I've watched all the videos now, and I see the sweet INTJ shining through! My brother! My friend!
I am a ENFP with a best friend who is INTJ we have a very harmonious relationship, we are both very goal and achievement driven. I think from what I've found if you present accurate facts that are well thought, we inspire each other. We usually have a meeting of minds and they respect that, a my facts are quality and informative, It's like giving a INTJ a nice brain smoothie or wholesome piece of information meat.
If we debate I usually present a logical fact with also a NF emotional or intuitive reason behind the debate, depending on the the content, sometimes if is purely facts, my INTJ supports and we enjoy testing fresh facts and theories together. Having a intuitive feeling and be a advantage for the NF as we can conceal or taylor information to guide the facts in a particular way that would make sense or leverage our philosophy within the discussion.
Essentially INTJ synergise, support and encourage a ENFP / INTJ. If I actually don't know something I will ususally kindly say, " Would you like to teach me or explain your idea or theory" and to a INTJ this can be a relief and enjoyable as they love to learn and share ideas to create what NF's would call harmony, NT would call clear pathways or smart ways to get to each letter between A to B to Z etc. in complex or simple discussions, This can be very appealing to the ENFP as ENFP has brilliant ideas but benefits from the structure or architecture of a INTJ thought process, on the flip side, ENFP's are great buddies for expanding the INTJ's consciousness and encouraging them to get out the house, working towards fitness or work relationship goals, they are both very ambitious and industrious in a sense, they also have a high percentage for accuracy, finding the matching partner and someone with a high IQ / EQ to spar with, in philosophy, life, arts and culture, as they both need that stimulation.
would love to know what you think, Alex is really cute also, lol ENFP's enjoy the cleanliness and grooming of INTJ from the INTJ's i've met. lol.
Anyway, I do like the folding idea Mike, but for this ENFP I enjoy going on a adventure with my INTJ friends and INFJ's also we bridge the gap and have great potential to solve many of the worlds issues NF bringing the soul or EQ of how can we connect these causes to make a impact and get people behind our vision, and the NT / INTJ creates the branches and clearly develops a system that is fullproof for the ENFP to campaign and sell, Together I really love this combination I am a Eleon Musk fan, He is INTJ just by listening to his theories can be co soothing to a ENFP of NF becuse that take us to places with logic to places one wouldnt have traditionally gone in ones own mind, they see all facts as part of the whole on the flip of the NF :)
Keep up the great show. Also would be great to see a love styles and compatibility in the types like ST / NF NF/NT etc. SP/NT
Thank you for helping me :)
J
I have only recently stumbled upon MBTI , after the age of 30 and have become fascinated by it. I had my family members take a test to find out their type as well. I am INTJ, my mother is an INFJ. That explains so much!! We are so similar in many ways yet, there also seems to be vast differences that cause us to argue and fight to no end. She often says things and expects me to take it as fact but I do not because there are no facts to back up the claim. She gets upset with me and accuses me of being argumentive or disrespectful, but I cannot believe her without a clear explanation of how she reached that conclusion. She just says she knows and that should be enough, (arrogance is common to this type as well in my expeirence) but I refuse and she takes it very personal. I can't say we really clarify our differences, but it's getting better. I don't trust feelings. She does. I believe they are misleading and should be put aside in arguments, but she goes on the hunch that feelings tell us where to go in seeking a truth. I don't buy that. Feelings are real, but deceptive. That is my take and as a result we continue to go round and round.
Okay...I'll let you in on a secret. It's a line from the musical, "The Man From La Mancha" which is a musical version of Don Quixote, which is one of my favorite books. It fits in well with the theme of the book and the musical very well, and I get it, so I like saying it from time to time.
A debate between an ENFP & an INTJ on the subject of how to effectively debate against an INTJ. What a hilarious video, I was cracking up the whole way through.
A little while ago I found a picture with the text:
"INTJ's appear to be good at everything, but only because they won't allow themselves to be observed doing anything until they have become highly skilled at it."
This is especially true for me, but is it true for every INTJ?
Thanks,
Jelte.
Haha, yeah. I've learned that lession too. I think it's sad that it's the state of things, but as long as I have one-two people I can have an intelligent discussion with, without them thinking it's an attack on their entire being, then I'm ok :) OT: How is it to have an INTP bf, btw? I imagine it would be quite frustrating at times?
oh wow i didnt realize this was directed at me :D. i do well when dealing with my sister ( intj, who i didnt grow up with. and i do also acknowledge she goes soft on me, im her sister). i feel like my mothers training camp has really done wonders for me. wow. and all this time i thought i was logically motivated. maybe it was her always engaging me in it, logic. wow :D. and that explains the time i knew i had her emotionally cornered a bit one time when she was telling me you could be/do anything when you grow up. and i brought up sherlock cuz she had been getting me into it at the time. and i was like but i couldnt be a detective. anyway she lied and said she thought i would make a great detective :D how funny
and i also want to say i can corroborate your theories its exactly how i deal with my sister. (and the only reason i have to remain neutral and exercise the strategies is cuz her natural director side will go straight to hierarchy where shes the bee queen, lol and she will start trying to plan everything for everyone)
But as far as switching around what you were initially establishing in the debate she does that too ive noticed. is that not suposed to be in the NT argument code? i thought it wasnt. My intp mom and entp ex would call it out to be very dastardly and proclaim being committed against such ethic monstrosity (my mom strictly only does it with the mon shes with. thats personal and allowable, alls fair in love and war she would say) :D i always just think its cute of my sister ( like kind of desperate and adorable. like when a baby kitten tries to play tuff and trips )
Would like to see a video debating SPs especially ESTP
I am an INTJ and my fraternal twin sister is an ENTJ... WE DEBATE SO OFTEN! We are always intellectually communicating. We both think we are smarter and more rational than the other. We can debate on a subject for hours. On some controversial subjects we agree which is rare but if we agree we 100% agree on everything. Agree with Adam that you must state your fact to argue with an INTJ if you say opinion you are just going to go down.
omg i just simultaneously realized its my mom that blessed me with logic(?) and what a blessing being brought up by her was (she's an intp, im an infp) and how grateful i am ... simultaneously , now :D
Alex youre super cool! i came on here to learn Intj guys body language and i ran into this. im an Intj female and i am having a hard time with the dating world. i thought maybe meeting an Intj guy might fix this(but im not excluding the other types also). i wasnt sure if the guys body language is similar to the females. but yeah, Thanks. also Mike, your personality is so warm and loving. it shows through the video. thanks guys
Well adjusted ENTJ's are actually really nice, speaking from experience with two ENTJ's in my immediate family.
umm May I ask a question.... What do INTJS dream about? :P My curiousity just crawls over me so if you please answer my question
@Mike.....given your theory on collectiveNF consciouness , was this debate strategy your idea, or a collaboration with your NF brethren?
I have an INFJ friend unfamilier with your videos, and during a arguement I baited him and said....."so facts are the enemy of truth"? I shit you not, I was thinkiing about you! He looked at me stunned, and said "exactly", now you understand" LOL I love you Mike
No. You could incorporate it but the question has to be answered somehow. Are you planning to take one of my exams?
Why not debate us INTJ on love or things in life and the universe without solid facts? After all life is still full of interesting questions with no answers, who knows? I look at the arguments below I figure why not let the INTP "win", at this point it's no longer about facts anyhow. The rationality I see in situations like that are:
1. This argument is a waste of time and effort, I could be watching a documentary or reading a book
2. This sucks the life out of me
3. I wonder what I should eat for dinner tonight
Mike your awesome as always. female intj here. Mike im curious, whats alex bday? thanks
I was laughing at this so much! :) I am an NF, and it can be very funny debating with my INTJ friend, especially if we're making connections among seemingly super random things - I love that about Intuition! While I admire him for his natural strengths, he admires me for mine, particularly my warmth and enthusiasm to understand and help others. I think, though, he's skeptical and not always nice on the outside since he's secretly worried that others might take advantage and/or can't be trusted.
I need to point my step-dad to this video. This would tell him the best way of talking to me over the holidays.
This was so funny!!! I'll remember those ninja moves next time. One of my best friends is an INTJ, it's just amazing how similar he is to Alex. I really admire INTJ's, they're on this neverending quest for clarity, and they're so cerebrally quick. And yeh, as an infp, before I new about myers briggs I would feel pretty dumb trying to do this verbal sparing thing with logic. It really is impossible, and now that I know this, I can just stick to what I'm good at, like English Lit, yay ambiguity!
Why on earth do NFs have to be imbeciles compared to NTs, its not as if we are apes and they are the "next generation of humans" what the hell. NFs, hopefully people realize, are not idiots, we're very smart thank you very much, just because we dont plot all the time doesnt mean we're idiots, it just means that there are other things to do
INTJ here. I don't believe that. One shouldn't go into the MBTI thing believing one type is superior. All types are equal, and all have strengths and weaknesses.
Hello Fellas, other observations.I think it is is possible to overemphasize type when developing a debating strategy.Remember, we are talking personality, not abilities or background knowledge.While taking into account personality is important, other things are at least as important, or even more so.Taking courses (or just reading), on debate, communication, and logic can really help your debate style.In addition, having a background on the subject you are debating is important as well.
As an INFP with a INTJ brother, you pretty much nailed what happens in our arguments. He wins through superior logic while I walk away dazed and depressed because I'm not rational enough to beat him. I like to think I'm a logical person too...
Wow the expression "INTJ nightmare" just summed up my thoughts, thank you very much for this deeply interesting conversation (or was is an interestingly deep conversation?).
Please explain to me how a fact can be untrue. I'm curious about the logic behind this, as it seems to be a contradictory statement to me.
You do realize that the myers briggs typology works by making generalizations, right?
I'm curious, aside from the irony in your comments are you conducting your tactic of debating here also?
Is there a point to debating an INTJ?
+Blafonovision His NF was wanting to relate so he chose something he felt would resonate with NT and debate it was.
Like I said, though, it isn't about winning for us (in most cases, judging by myself and the INTJs I know- can't speak for everyone), rather, increasing the knowledge base. Or honing the edge, whichever visual you prefer. Have you ever tried to simply tell an INTJ "I'm uncomfortable debating with you because ________, could we please discuss something else?" Because as it stands, your strategy will make the NF feel like a winner, but (cont)
This is a great video. I had to laugh several times over things that were funny but true. What I would like to see though is a video about us INTJs debating S types, especially ISTJ. What I can see is that ISTJs will not debate us INTJs - they just refuse to even look at or listen to facts that are in conflict with their beliefs, regardless of what facts we present.
I know...and you're not the first to notice that. Thus, when it comes up I want to explain it. But it seems that there has been no real criticism, just laughter, which is fine.
I just realized why INTJ-ENFP partners are so happy together. I love the intellectual chemistry between the two men. As an INTJ female I definitely want an ENFP in my life, they have very interesting personality.
Seems like this guy gets more confidence than he should from just knowing he's an INTJ
He knows himself, hopefully, as well. INTJs don't need others telling them their smart. They know it, and they'll own it with no humility. Depending on the person.
Hahahahaha, hilarious!! I totally knew what you were talking about when you mentioned the pincer thing. Lastly, Alex is clearly an INTJ, through and through!
Hi.I am an INTJ myself and believe it or not,this subject is also useful for INTJs since occasionaly we find ourselves in a debate with other INTJ.A couple of commements.First,size up the INTJ.If you are well versed in a subject that your INTJ is not, then that is an advantage for you.Second,try to use concrete facts to argue against an INTJ's theory (this is especially good advice for Sensing types).Third,win by triggering cognitive dissonance in the INTJ even if they won't admit defeat.
First, I don't have to, nor should I, prove anything. That language already implies a power hierarchy over NF. This is because it puts you in the position of judge and jury. In addition, I also need not prove it because not only will that fail but because I don't need to for myself as an NF. NF seems to be the least translatable consciousness. The question I have to answer is whether or not this is authentic and a valid experience for me as an NF. And it is.
Ideology has many meanings (thanks to no foundational truth), but I would say that in this case I would use the meaning of the word as an attempt to have knowledge about ideas and not other definitions that suggest an internally logical set of ideas usually metaphysical in nature meant to bind a group together by creating an absolute truth about reality and the group's relation to it. These ideas could be used that way, I suppose. That is not my intention here, though.
INTJs are awesome. As an ENTP I almost never have to debate an INTJ especially if it is their own domain. I don't even try if they are an expert at what they do because I can bullshit a lot of people with a little knowledge but the INTJ will absolutely back it up. If you bullshit him or her or try to they will own you. The only way you can maybe win is some sort of shallow victory like an ENTP or an INTP trying to trip an INTJ up on semantics and facts. You must know your stuff to win though.
The only other way is that an INTJ gets tunnel vision and usually an NT can use logic and put an INTJ more at center. That means if you bring the facts, they will change their opinion. I've had awesome conversations with INTJs and am kind of jealous of your ability to get shit done. You can make an INTJ feel guilty though but they usually messed up in a major way. That said, I'm funnier than my INTJ friend and can brainstorm faster.
Haha, defining terms is simply a must in debates. The English language in our modern day is unfortunately lacking in clarity of what one truly means to say. Depending on the context and background of the persons in the debate, terms must be clearly stated or confusion will surely arise. I have a science/math background and terms take on a very different meaning in the world of academics at least in this sense, oppose to everyday usage of a word/meaning in everyday language of the term.
Sarah Faira P.S. I am an INTJ ;)
+Sarah Faira Hot.
+Sarah Faira I'd say in everyday life the issue isn't words having vague meanings, it's vague thoughts being put into words without enough concise boundaries to make the idea clear enough. Certainly, you can say "the soup is too cold" which is vague, but I could also say "The soup is 75 degrees, I find that too cold to enjoy eating." The issue wasn't me being able to find the words to precisely tell you the temperature, it was just the vague nature of being a human and assuming the other person knows what "cold soup" is.
So uhh... as a fellow INTJ (especially seeing that you're a female INTJ) do you have trouble remembering names? I'm a male INTJ, can't remember names to save my life, I'm going to start asking other INTJs if they have the same issue.
+Meizu Sigh...Yeah I get that sometimes, tell me something I don't know already...jeez ;)
+Jesse Crandle. I said what I mean. Defining terms is paramount because people will try to overly expand or twist words in an argument that has nothing to do with the point at hand. It's a common logical fallacy some use to try and win a debate, but I put a stop to it by calling them out and making them stick to a definition without trying to pull a fast one. As far as names are concerned, the older I get the less I remember. Memorization isn't my thing if it isn't relative to my interests or daily use. I remember names of people I like or care about, but if they are non-essential people to me, I don't remember because they have never left an impression upon me worth remembering.
This was actually very very helpful :D
Thank you :)
Key point: feelers need to learn to talk about fairness, right or wrong. Thinkers need to learn to appreciate the good intention from feelers. To both sides, no matter how it seems insane, just do it after 6 months you will find yourself happier and be more balance.
I am a female INTJ. INTJ's are very talented poets and metaphoric story tellers. re: this video - You can't win, you can't dodge, you can't outlast us. You can talk all you want but we can drop the mic, leave the stage and still be right. You described a tap dance, not a strategy. I sat here waiting for an actual strategy and didn't hear one. It's amusing to me, like a cat watching a mouse running around in circles in a corner.
I wouldn't go so far as to assume I'm setting myself up for disappointment. Great thing about being a thoughtful INTJ is that I'm prepared to be let down. Also, not to say I'm not around smart people or that I'm not smart myself, but that the chances of me running into the likes of Pascal are slim to none. Well aware of the reasons of the heart, which completely explains my personal life as opposed to my work life.
Facts and Logic are KEY to a successful argument!!!
INFJ here, I have years of experience with INTJs, About five years I'd say. The INTJ is right about, don't show emotion, don't show weakness. Hm, I think that NF types can debate with an INTJ, my advice is to come to the argument prepared -there is google after all. If an argument starts before you have researched, don't act like you know what you are talking about. Instead just be straightforward "I'll have to get back to you on this" the INTJ can't argue with that.
OMG LOL I LOVE THIS VIDEO!!!! laughed all the way through it cos it was so true... srsly intjs are so easy to pick out haha
~much love, infj
I'm an ENFP and my brother is an INTJ. Sometimes I would be sitting in my room reading a book and he would come to my door to start a debate about something random. It took me a good minute to realize that he was just bored and I was his entertainment.
I think it's safe to say that someone who is logical does not necessarily have the right reasoning. Sometimes NTs mistake myths for facts. That's when an informed NF has the upperhand. I love my INTJ brother, but he is not exempt from this.
I am supposedly an INTJ and for me consistency is far more important than facts. Facts can be manipulated and twisted to fit a person’s argument. If the facts are not consistent or the logic behind how the facts are weaved together in an argument is flawed it will be unraveled.
As an ENFP with an INTJ husband, I was giggling like a crazy over this. My problem is that my husband does not want to even entertain a theory without terms being defined. Now I have a better strategy! Mwahaha! And, also, even though my husband looks nothing like the INTJ in this video, he has all the same facial expressions.
Sorry I'm not the person this question is directed at (I am also an INTJ), but I believe that -under the circumstances you suggested- the only way the pursuit of such knowledge could be justified is through passing said knowledge on in hopes of it reaching someone who CAN somehow change said matter.
I'm a INTJ and this is 100% true
I'm an ENFJ. I personally am not really concerned with "winning". I do enjoy discussions and questioning an and considering ideas. I always saw it as a good way to get to the truth. I find it helpful to bounce ideas off people and question theirs. I would agree with your reasoning and believe both people grow. I actually find INTJs quite respectful where as some would resort to personal attacks when questioned. They might find it annoying because being logical is my weakness so I don't even try.
I am amused that people are so stuck on 'winning', when that seems to me to be beside the point... it is all simply information-gathering or information-sharing to me (INTP). :D
From my experience (I'm an INTJ), any type, given enough practice and training, can do something that isn't natural for them and even "beat" someone who does something naturally. It just takes a whole lot more effort in general. There is one or two INFPs who have swayed/beaten me through logic and reason several times. Their background is Computer Science, so they've been trained to think logically even if it's not their preference.
I think I provided inadequate information.
I see the sparks fly between those two all the time. The man is twelve years her senior, so I think that's where the superiority comes into the picture. It's obvious he respects her.
When I get back post-Christmas, I'll be keepingwhat you said in mind. while also making sure the INTJ never tries to give me a subtle compliment put-down. I'd love to see him try.
~ENTP coworker / smirking observer
Definition of "winning an argument" should be a basic and common premise, where both parties know that in order to win, they have to have a rational or propose a rational argument cited with direct or logical explanations that when compared to there opponent is superior.
INTP here. One thing that I've learned recently in "How to argue and win every time" is that it's important to change your definition of winning an argument. Never was this idea of having different definitions of winning an argument more clear than here. If I were to guess, to an NT, winning consists of causing your opponent to admit you're right and going home weeping. (to exaggerate) For this NF, winning is getting the NT to stop bugging you.