The mistakes that led to a very cold bathroom and what I'm doing to fix them!

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  • Опубликовано: 11 дек 2024

Комментарии • 82

  • @desimmonds
    @desimmonds 14 дней назад +6

    Tom, your videos are excellent! I'm on the beginning of a home tech/heating odyssey and your content has been so interesting and useful. Thanks and keep up the great work!

  • @happygardener3990
    @happygardener3990 13 дней назад +4

    Excellent video. had a very cold hallway (adjacent to an integral garage) so when I had a new boiler fitted, I took the opportunity to fit a double radiator in place of the single and the warmth difference was immediate. It has also benefitted the 3 rooms leading off the hallway too. I had no idea that outputs could not be relied upon and feel much better informed, so thank you Tomas.

  • @anthonyb8600
    @anthonyb8600 14 дней назад +10

    All these numbers are all well and good, but in reality, they're just a guide. Buy the biggest radiator you can fit and use a trv to adjust accordingly. Towel rails dry towels, not heat rooms. Great video.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +4

      Getting the biggest rad possible is a simple approach, but it has issues. Firstly, move TRVs are very slow to respond and digital ones, in my experience, aren't very accurate. Closed TRVs can also present a problem for a heat pump since they reduce the available volume of water in the system. You're right about towel rails drying towels - that was my main mistake! Should have just put a nice columnated rad in there in the first place.

    • @chinesepopsongs00
      @chinesepopsongs00 13 дней назад

      Trv circuits should be parallel to the main living room circuit that uses the main thermostat to control your heat source.

    • @MadDog_Rules
      @MadDog_Rules 3 дня назад

      @@tomasmcguinness You can put in a tall columnated radiator, but the traditional towel rails, depending on brand, have high BTU's also. Not sure if i can say the website here on YT, but there's a great auction site called John Pye auctions, they update their inventory every Friday. Or you could get a columnated rad and install a couple of chrome towel rails, they're separate fittings you can buy.

  • @paulbarnes5041
    @paulbarnes5041 14 дней назад +8

    I've seen that some manufacturers overstate their radiator heat outputs - something to watch out for!

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +2

      You're right!!! I'd forgotten all about that! There was an episode of the Beta Talk podcast that covered that. I think mine is close enough as I did some maths comparing the room's expected temperature against the radiator's expected output and it was pretty close.

    • @jameswright7375
      @jameswright7375 14 дней назад

      Yep! I got caught out because of this.

    • @JohnnyMotel99
      @JohnnyMotel99 13 дней назад

      Stelrad state outputs at delta 50 (pretty realistic) whereas the manufacturer Reina use delta 70 (not realistic). I would trust the stated outputs, but recalculate with a more realistic delta 50.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад

      @JohnnyMotel99 dt 70, bloody hell!!

    • @JohnnyMotel99
      @JohnnyMotel99 13 дней назад

      @@tomasmcguinness I know! Dunno why they don't update to realistic delta, given that HP's are becoming more common.

  • @samuelchamberlain2584
    @samuelchamberlain2584 12 дней назад +1

    Its also worth mentioning having a door or shower curtain helps massively with shower comfort as you need less flow or can shower in a cooler room.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  11 дней назад

      I agree, but our shower enclosure can’t be closed. You certainly need the water running warmer when the door is open, so we do our best to keep the bathroom door closed, but with small kids that doesn’t always happen :)

  • @sygad1
    @sygad1 14 дней назад +2

    I got to a similar conclusion in a very different way ;-), I currently run gas, aiming to go heatpump = double the wattage of radiator (finger in the air maths), then I reckoned everyone bumps their figures, so best triple the wattage for good measure.......there may have been a little cross checking with the team about the lunacy of this approach but it seems to be reasonably sound. And now I can see your video, so i'm even more confident now.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +1

      The calculation to give you a radiator's output at a lower temperature isn't linear due to convection changes (I think), so be careful! At the extreme end, you might need a radiator that's *5* times the size. For me, at a high flow of 45, I'm looking at one that's 3.3 times the size. If you wanted a flow temp of 35, you'd need a rad that was 5 times the size!! When the installation is being designed, these factors will be correctly applied.

  • @Mike-hq3oy
    @Mike-hq3oy 13 дней назад +1

    Thanks for this and your other interesting videos. If you use the radiator to hang towels from (as is presumably the normal practice), the insulating effect of those towels would significantly reduce the actual design heat output of the radiator and so would need to be factored in. That's one of the issues in our own underheated bathroom!

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад +3

      Very true. I think we'll end up just getting a regular column radiator and add some rails or hooks to hold the towels.

  • @Biggest-dh1vr
    @Biggest-dh1vr 13 дней назад +1

    My plan to have a radiator in the hallway outside our bathroom has worked quite well. Opening then closing the windows to dry the bathroom, then the door to heat it has worked out quite well.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад +1

      We have a nice rad outside the bathroom door, but all it's energy goes into heating the hallway, so there isn't enough surplus to make a dent in the bathroom. Did you deliberately get a bigger hallway radiator?

    • @Biggest-dh1vr
      @Biggest-dh1vr 12 дней назад +1

      @tomasmcguinness we deliberately bought a larger radiator for outside the bathroom. We needed a new one there in any case.
      Down to what delta T is the towel rail sufficient? I.e. at what temp you would need to start putting the underfloor on for?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  12 дней назад +2

      @Biggest-dh1vr it’s only outputs enough when the flow is about 62. My flow doesn’t go over 45, so it always underperforms :(

  • @chinesepopsongs00
    @chinesepopsongs00 13 дней назад +2

    I had no knowledge when i did my bathroom, but i knew that you should calculate your main source only and choose the first that rounds upwards and then use a thermostat. People like their towelrack type too much that does not radiate very well. It is for towels not for the room.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад +1

      You're absolutely right. I only wish I'd been given that piece of advice.

  • @twelvebears1971
    @twelvebears1971 14 дней назад +2

    We are lucky in that our main bathroom, which only has a towel rail, doesn’t have a window, just a massive mirror wall, so it stays warm. Downstairs WC not so as has a window and two external walls. Solution was to swap the towel rail for an actual radiator.

  • @drcl7429
    @drcl7429 13 дней назад +1

    Currently pondering what to do in my bathroom. I am leaning toward an electric down heater and a towel heater for just that. Bathroom doesn't need to be warm all the time.
    With low room to rad deltas the only way to increase output is using fans.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад

      Like IR heating?

    • @drcl7429
      @drcl7429 13 дней назад

      @@tomasmcguinness I just stumbled upon IR heating panels today actually. Seems like a good solution to fit on the ceiling, most are IP65 rated and as long as its one that heats up quick, would be ideal. Completely unsure what wattage is required though.

    • @samuelchamberlain2584
      @samuelchamberlain2584 12 дней назад

      Modern pull cord downflow heaters work well and have inbuilt timer functionality. Of course if you have ch just use bigger rad

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  12 дней назад

      @@drcl7429all I know about the IR panels is that they will warm things, not air. So if well positioned, they can be very effective. Not sure how expensive they are to run though.
      What do you think of them?

  • @TheRonskiman
    @TheRonskiman 14 дней назад +1

    When I did our bathroom back in the mid noughties I just went with the biggest towel radiator I could find, which is 750 x 1800, no idea what its rating is though. I also insulated the floor, although it's over our hallway, and added electric underfloor heating, which we've never actually used, the room is also fully tiled, and only has one short external wall. I'm hoping the rad will be OK for a ASHP, but I do wonder how hanging towels on it would affect the heating. I do currently have our CH flow running at 50c, and may turn it down some more, just to see what happens. Last weekend I added sensors to the flow, return and hot water (its a combi).

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +1

      You had more foresight than me!! As you're thinking ASHP, you just need to find the minimum flow you can manage with when it's freezing cold outside. Depending on where you live, it's usually never as cold as you design for. I've seen a lot of people ending up with two rads in their bathroom. One big rad for actual heat and one towel rad to dry towels. We don't even hang towels on ours anymore 🤦‍♂️

    • @TheRonskiman
      @TheRonskiman 14 дней назад

      @tomasmcguinness We're on the south east coast, so it doesn’t get particularly cold, luckily.

  • @jamescater66
    @jamescater66 14 дней назад

    Tom, been a while. Stainless steel radiators should give you more heat. Also check out at a radiator control system that you can set temps per room, the prices have come down.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  11 дней назад

      Hey James! You’re right about the rad, but it’s all about aluminium now! As for smart thermostats, I haven’t had a good experience with any of them. Tried the complete Tado setup and eventually took it all out and sold it on eBay 🤣

  • @CoolSharpHarp
    @CoolSharpHarp 14 дней назад +1

    Have you balanced all your radiators? Is it possible you could send some more flow to your bathroom radiator?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +3

      Pushing more flow won’t raise the radiator’s temp high enough. The water would need to be coming into the radiator at 65 or 70 to bet the 600W output.

    • @CoolSharpHarp
      @CoolSharpHarp 12 дней назад +1

      @tomasmcguinness electric radiator?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  12 дней назад +1

      Nah, I just need a bigger radiator. There are plenty on the market that suit. Just need to find on that’s not too expensive and that the wife likes :)

    • @CoolSharpHarp
      @CoolSharpHarp 12 дней назад +1

      @@tomasmcguinness well great channel keep it going.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  12 дней назад +1

      @CoolSharpHarp thanks! And thanks for taking the time to watch and comment!

  • @laserjim
    @laserjim 12 дней назад

    Very timely, I'm thinking through all this myself. Have you found a good high-output towel rad? I'm thinking something like a vertical column rad with separate towel bars around it would be the way to go.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  11 дней назад +1

      I haven’t had time to look yet. I am thinking column rad with hooks, but my wife doesn’t like the towels hanging on the rad at all (!) so we might put up some hooks on the wall. I would like to confine the moisture in the room and stop my wife putting towels on the bedroom radiator!

  • @davidcoates6768
    @davidcoates6768 13 дней назад

    Have you thought of just getting a second towel radiator the same and putting it the other side of the door?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад

      Funny you ask that, as I did talk that option through with a plumber fairly recently. Unfortunately, the stairs are the other side of that wall, so getting some tails coming through that wall would be difficult. My wife wasn't keen on the idea either.

    • @davidcoates6768
      @davidcoates6768 13 дней назад

      @ I would have said pipe it from below, but I guess you don't want to access from the garage again. If you struggle to find a big enough radiator, you can also get skirting board with pipes in to add extra heat, discreatheat is one I found via google. When I eventually get a heat pump, I will hopefully follow your route of upgrading all the radiators myself, its great that you have openenergymon on your boiler.

  • @nickmarshall7019
    @nickmarshall7019 14 дней назад +1

    So which toolset would you say was the most accurate in terms of heat loss calculation and sizing the radiators? Did you try Heatpunk to size your radiators as I've used it in my calculations and I'm interested in how accurate Heatpunk is

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад

      I did a full heat loss with Heat Punk and it seemed accurate enough as I checked it against the heat loss I was measuring with my heat meter. There are two videos in my channel related to this. One covers a manual heat loss using my own Excel and one covers Heat Punk. I just found the lack of Undo support really frustrating!! I haven't tried it with radiator's yet, that's on my list. It's well regarded in the industry as far as I'm aware and it meets the standards for a heat loss tool. Like anything, these tools are only as good as the information you put into them too.
      Others to consider are Heat Engineer, Spruce and H2X. All of differing levels of complexity.
      Is there something that's making you doubt Heat Punk's accuracy?

    • @nickmarshall7019
      @nickmarshall7019 14 дней назад

      @@tomasmcguinness I am content with Heatpunks Heat Loss assessment as it fits with the other Heat Loss calcs I have had done. I found the radiator sizing element of Heatpunk very useful in telling me which radiators I need to change and to what size. It would be interesting to find out what result Heatpunk gives for your bathroom radiator upgrade and compare it to the radiator sizing website you used to calibrate Heatpunks output?

  • @juliacurrie8925
    @juliacurrie8925 10 дней назад

    How much does ventilation effect the heat loss? I have a single room MVHR unit which runs all the time. Thinking it’s extracting just a bit too much heat sadly.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  9 дней назад +1

      Ventilation be somewhere between 15% and 25% of the total heat loss. It's very hard to make an accurate guess on ACH (the number of Air Changes per Hour), which is how ventilation losses are calculated. I use figures between 0.5 and 1 for mine. I plan on getting it professionally measured in the New Year.
      If you have MVHR, the heat being extracted will be distributed to somewhere else in the house, so it's not completely wasted. MVHR systems are usually balanced, but as it's a bathroom, it might have a higher extraction rate to handle the moisture.

  • @ARandomOWL
    @ARandomOWL 10 дней назад

    Wet UFH sounds like the ideal solution here?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  10 дней назад

      Wish we did that from the start, but now it would require redoing the bathroom floor, which would be expensive and disruptive.

  • @robinbennett5994
    @robinbennett5994 12 дней назад

    Are there any figures on the heat output of a towel rail style radiator when you actually use it for towels? I would imagine that the towels insulate the radiator and massively reduce the heat output.
    Also, is it just me or are these towel rail radiators far too small for a proper bath towel?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  12 дней назад +1

      No, they don’t put anything like that on their outputs. And you’re right, they are too narrow!!!

  • @Treeburnify
    @Treeburnify 13 дней назад

    Without an accurate heat loss calculation for a room you need to allow for a margin for error by over-sizing the radiator. The online calculators and the building element assumptions they contain are too general for a reliable heat loss. When considering flow temperatures, you need to consider if you have sufficient domestic hot water anti-legionella factors in place to allow a low flow temperature to be set.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад

      Amen. My plumber did ever by gut feel. I didn’t even know about heat loss calculations back then!
      With my low flow setup, my boiler supports two flow temperatures. Hot water is up at 70 and my Mixergy tank does a sterilisation cycle every two weeks, so thankfully that’s covered!

  • @robbiegreen
    @robbiegreen 14 дней назад

    I have been finding all your videos very interesting. There are 2 rooms in my house that I cannot get up to target temperature in the winter months. I suspect I need larger radiators. Do you know how to find the output in watts of a 25 year old radiator? So I can do a heat loss for the room and confirm it is undersized?

    • @martinwright7093
      @martinwright7093 14 дней назад +1

      If its a standard convector type radiator with panel(s) and fins behind you can get a good idea by measuring the dimensions of it and whether its a single or double panel etc and comparing that with new rads of the same type and size on say Screwfix website for example where they state the outputs. It should be a good guide. Rads haven't changed that much in 25 years.

    • @davideyres955
      @davideyres955 14 дней назад +1

      Have you got a thermal camera. I’ve noticed my rad’s seem to pick up a lot of magnetite even with inhibitor and a magnaclense filter. I suspect it’s dropping off the inside of the rad, moving and blocking up the channels at the bottom. It’s got to be hurting the heat output so worth taking it off and giving it a blast with a hose. In addition I bought a shot gun cleaning kit that has a wire brush on a entendable stick so I can brush out the bottom for any really stick bits.
      Sure it may kill the rad if it’s rusty but then I’m going to need a new rad anyway. It’s kind of kill or cure.
      I found a thermal camera was very useful in my rooms because it showed all to cold spots from the missing insulation so persuaded me to re insulate the roof which I’m in the middle of now.

    • @robbiegreen
      @robbiegreen 14 дней назад

      @@martinwright7093great I will give that a go to get a good idea

    • @robbiegreen
      @robbiegreen 14 дней назад

      @@davideyres955I do have a thermal camera and it seems to be heating evenly. Doesn’t look like there is an issue. This is why I suspect it is too small for the rooms heat loss

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +1

      Thank you! The other commenters on this (I love seeing other viewers help!) are right. You can probably have a reasonable stab at the radiators output. What is your boiler's flow temperature? If that's up at 60 or 70 and you can't heat those rooms, then new rads are almost a necessity with an ASHP. You could try improving insulation or using those fan attachments to help increase the rad's output. Gave you tried to work out the heat loss of the rooms in question?

  • @pmbpmb5416
    @pmbpmb5416 14 дней назад +1

    I believe Stelrad are the only radiator manufacturer who actually has their rads tested to British standards for heat output , the others are self regulating so to speak , in other words you have no way of checking what they claim .
    I have ended up having the ugliest radiators on the planet as a result , K3s from stelrad , ugly yes , but output is ok .

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  14 дней назад +2

      I was reminded that there is a scandal in the industry, with manufacturers misreporting outputs. I think my rad's output is reasonably accurate, since I could successfully predict the room's temp during a recent 70 degree flow experiment I ran. Running at the 70 flow with a dT of 40 pulled the room up a higher temperature, matching my calculated heatloss. Still, it's too small for a heat pump!

  • @peterjones6322
    @peterjones6322 11 дней назад

    For me 15 degrees in a bathroom is not a big problem, we don't spend much time in there, and tend to be moving around or in the shower moving around under hot water. Stop putting towels on the heated rail because that is what is reducing the heat output.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  11 дней назад

      It’s personal comfort isn’t it. What works for one, doesn’t work another. When the kids are in there brushing their teeth etc. it’s cold.
      We haven’t put towels on it for years. As soon as we do, the rads is pointless. The issue is the size of the rad and the low flow temperature, not just the presence of towels.

  • @sjoroverpirat
    @sjoroverpirat 13 дней назад +1

    i cannont wrap my head around how you brits construct your homes. There is so much weird desicions IMO.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад +1

      🤣 The house is almost 70 years old. Great for the time it was built, not so good now.

    • @sjoroverpirat
      @sjoroverpirat 11 дней назад

      @@tomasmcguinness I've been watching grand designs and several other birtish shows a lot. I really like birtish architecture. But there is still so many weird choises. Is timber insanely expensive over there?

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  11 дней назад

      @sjoroverpirat ha ha ha no, not really. The housing stock is brick built and it’s historic. In the cold weather, back when people had open fires, the block construction would retain heat. In this day and age, it’s not necessary, but most new houses are still built from blocks. No idea why. Habit maybe? More brick layers than carpenters.

  • @fnerf0
    @fnerf0 13 дней назад

    3 min in and I already see mistake...

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад

      Very cryptic!

    • @fnerf0
      @fnerf0 13 дней назад +1

      Obvious things:
      - low flow temperature (you made video regarding that)
      - splitting heat capacity (but I assume that you have not accounted heat loss for underfloor heating and or that it needs run constantly which means huge bill for electricity)
      Also, with low flow temps you could put water underfloor heating and correct it with termo valve

  • @lamb-chops
    @lamb-chops 13 дней назад +1

    Most boring video ever, recommend watching this to get you to sleep at night.

    • @tomasmcguinness
      @tomasmcguinness  13 дней назад +1

      Can’t please everyone I’m afraid. Thanks for the engagement!