30 years working on BMW nothing ever surprises me any more, you won't believe how many cars get sold or get sent to the breakers yard because customers can't afford to fix them because they have so many expensive problems, great diagnosis Ivan
Totally agree. My 2016 RRS has electronic oil level and I hate it. Get this though the dipstick tube is still there but just has a plastic cap over it and it is now used as an oil vacuum passage so you don't even pull an oil plug to do an oil change. The oil level has two modes as well, customer and service mode. Shit like this drives me nuts.
@@ohboy2118 when you buy something like this the manufacturers look at numbers, that means if the cars that contain this feature is selling, then the customer likes it. Stop buying cars that has this feature so manufacturers stop putting it in. You vote with your money
My 05 Dodge Magnum Hemi came with a dipstick tube but no stick on the transmission but B&M quickly offered one for sale. That's bad enough but no dipstick on the engine is unforgiveable.
Unfortunately, I think this new method is better for the average car owner. How many people today even know how to open a hood much less read a dipstick? (Followers of this channel excluded 😊)
Just finished both parts, this is unbelievable. Amazing perseverance with diagnosing this. This would never have been fixed without a visit to you. Kudos to the owner for having enough parts to complete this but I can't imagine the hours of research and money he's thrown at this!
Two comments: 1) If everything were on one network, the car likely wouldn't have operated at all as these module faults began to occur, so the network complexity does provide a level of redundancy. 2) BMW designed this car to be compatible with parts cannon diagnostics. Just keep replacing modules in sets until it's fixed.
Finally Ivan had to use parts and did not give us another "no parts required" fix. I was drinking Vodka for every time he did that, so thanks for giving a my liver a break for once. Ivan's ability to peal the layers like an onion, layered chocolate cake or a Parfait on these complicated diagnosis is impressive. I can see how a shop would totally pass on these. I am left amazed again.
Ivan, you did an incredible job on this car. I love seeing you plug in the scope on these cars because it erases any doubt about what is happening electrically. I love your customer who in my mind is very intelligent but also humble enough to know when he needs help. Thanks for Sharing!
Ivan, thanks for sharing the PICO waveforms. This adds a new dimension to your process which I personally find both intriguing and engaging. I don't know how often you include waveforms with your video, but I'm hoping I will see more of them in upcoming videos. Thanks for Sharing!
@@mungtor Nahhh... its not worth keeping a car that breaks often. I had a Q5 that needed the ECU programmed at the dealer due to water getting into the housing. Stupid designs, stupid expenses
A very experienced mechanic told me, "If you MUST have a European car, buy low mileage ( not new) and sell before 100,000 comes up, otherwise mortgage your house."
Another great job Ivan! I can feel what you really want to say about BMW’s. Over engineered, way too complex, oddball problems and on and on. No dipstick! Let’s rely on a a complex failure prone system to check oil level. Plus having to use a bmw battery with it’s own chip or else you lose electrical functions.
@@cullenmiller8170 BMW even advises you not to open the hood but to take it to a dealer on their info display. What’s next? 2001, Hal open the hood please. I’m sorry Dave I can’t let you do that.
Ivan, always love watching your videos as a technician myself. Your case studies and what you come across are incredible. I hope to be at your level one day, you gave me the courage to start using an oscilloscope in my regular diagnostic toolbox, thank you for that! Bravo on the diagnostic, very few technicians would've been able to do what you did.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics it's been pretty amazing using one, I'm always itching to get a vehicle with an issue I can use the scope on now. I had a 97 grand voyager come in with a crashed CCD bus and no coms on the bcm icm and pcm. Got a crash course in differential signaling with the inverse -4.45v and 4.5v on the bus wires. So cool diagnosing down to the component level within a module, I just wish they didn't pot the modules to where it's extremely difficult to repair the failed MOSFET or driver itself instead of using a reman module. I've learned a lot from you man!
That is quite the diagnosis, can't imagine the reason why these components get fried just because the grounds were left out.. on typical cars, they'll just wont work and will get back on line once ground is once again supplied. Thanks for taking us along Ivan! Cheers
My guess: Modules grounded to engine get spiked by battery positive voltage on their ground leg, during CRANKING, when the engine's battery grounds are crappy or omitted. Remember that starter surge is in excess of 1000A, and a poorly grounded engine can act as a node in a voltage divider network. Now, one would hope that engineering hardens modules against reverse polarity and destructive currents, yet hooking up a battery backwards for just 100us might be enough to melt your credit card $$.
I've seen my fair share of broken engine computers on BMW MINI's from people leaving this ground on the valve cover floating, usually after changing the timing chain. This wire is the ground for the coils, resulting in voltage spikes to the ECM output. Interestingly, on MINI it usually breaks the 5v reference output, destroying the accelerator paddle in the process since the 5v output becomes 10v or so. You could blame BMW, for a flaky design, but I also think mechanics should just put everything back together the way it is supposed to be connected. It's the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure the car works and is fixable, but it is the responsibility of the mechanic to fix it correctly.
I agree, however I also think the engineers should have realized that as the car is age a ground wire could simply corrode off or have a rodent eat through it. Should that really cause thousands in damage to expensive computers? What they should have done is run major ground wires through the engine computer harness itself. And any other module harnesses. So it as long as those are plugged in to their main harness they have a good ground. It would be fine to have additional grounds and other locations. But system critical grounds should have been run through the main bus connectors at the computer in the first place.
@@kens97sto171 I highly doubt that BMW allows ground loops in their design rules. It would be a hell to pass EMC compliance rules with a solutuon like that. What they could have done IMO is decouple the ignition drivers from the 5v regulators better inside the ECU.
@@tomvleeuwen I don't know. Every major electronic component in my car which happens to be a Toyota. Has its own grounds in the harness that connects to the component itself. There's certainly are some body grounds. Multiple grounds coming from different locations bonding to one grounding point on the chassis. But if you pull the connector off of the main computer, it carries its own ground. If somewhere along the harness that ground came unconnected, it would simply not power up. To me that's the major design flaw in this BMW. The systems still functioned but allowed themselves to be damaged. I guess it's possible you can consider that a backup that it would keep you from being stranded. I'm not sure which way is the better design philosophy.
You could not give me a Break My Wallet. I wish the owner good luck. It had a laundry list of problems. Your patience is inspiring, unlike that car. No oil dipstick? No thanks.
That oil level sensor is $300 for aftermarket brand. A dipstick would not fail at all. Maybe some of the folks with BMW need to experience some of the service costs personally to understand their wild inventions and maintenance fees. No ground wires connected to the engine? Opps...ouch. BTW, nice 2X extra long hose clamps on those coolant hoses.
@A. Melbs Ask a repair shop to use their sources and fix it or, do the research. No one is coming anytime soon to help you. If you have no experience in salvage yards and how they are run...pass the job onto someone who is.
@A. Melbs Open your mind. YOU have to research the part. If that's too much to handle, forget the idea. You have to find the salvage yard on your own...or ask around or get some common sense fired up and challenge yourself in finding a source who has what is needed. Maybe a dipstick tube from a different engine will work, pull out the old rusted part from the block, cut off the rusted area of the old tube, weld on a replacement piece that yields the same length as the old one and press it into the block? Seems like a fair idea if you can't find the exact one. Most of them are the same diameter so order a new one that has the same diameter and do the above. There is no magic involved, just personal effort.
This is just astonishing. 5 parts including 3 computers at the same time! I don't know if he had to buy all the spares or if some of them were provided at no cost when he bought the car, but they still had to cost a ton of money. Congrats for the diagnosis. This could be a car at the dealer for a year and thousands of $$ fired to no avail kind of case so you still most likely saved him a good amount. Looks like you are of the very few automotive electronics wizard who can solve such cases. I love the F10 generation of 5-series and most BMW models but each time I think they got better than E60s reliability wise, I'm proved wrong. And those were only electrical problems, wait until this pre-update N63 engine trashes its timing chain, VANOS actuators, valve stem seals and leaks oil... This is a beautiful, fast and comfortable car and with Lexus-grade reliability, this car would be AMAZING. But it is what it is. Range Rovers could still do worse however, it would be awesome to see one on the channel.
As you diagnosed, a faulty part on the BSD network can take down communications to any/all components on the network. The BSD errors started for my BMW AFTER alternator replacement. New TYC alternator charged fine but caused BSD error on water pump forcing it to run continuously at default/safety strategy. Final fix was replacing the voltage regulator on the TYC alternator with an OEM Bosch regulator. BSD errors gone and all modules happy. N54/2008.
Wow, so many modules going bad at same time as of the bad ground, just wow. A lot of money thrown at it. Ouch!! At least the diagnosis was correct and confirmed!! Awesome video! 👌
Exceptional perseverance, Ivan. I feel sorry for the owner. He seems like a smart guy, but he got suckered into a bad purchase. Friends don't let friends buy Eurotrash.
👍 well done Ivan. Having the parts on hand was a game changer in many ways. We need these jobs sometimes to learn from, for future jobs. Great diag two part series. Many moons ago, i had a oil level sensor give a crank no start on a e39 530.
You are such an honest, professional, excellent repair and troubleshooter-people are going to start paying plane tickets to have you and your scanner to travel to States to fix their automobiles or anything that has an engine.
I am so grateful that my 525i E34 was so reliable. I trully believe that those old BMW were the best. I also had a 325i E36 and it was a nightmare. I did junk this car because I was sick with all the expensive repairs. Move to MB and had and used W140 S320 that still runs, but man I move the more reliable cars. Now I have a Sonata as daily driver and just use the Merc on Sundays. I promised myself not to own more complicated german cars. They are good while in warranty, so forget about keeping any german car beyond the first 5 years. Ivan this is a great video. People drive 12 hours to your shop because you are the best!!!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics This just proves my point that most of the problems on BMW's are caused by the "mechanics" not that the cars are bad... :) However, great diagnosis.
Yay more cars with sensitive components. With the technology avalible they can implement rugged Inputs and outputs. But I guess a extra $20 per unit is to expensive.
Another great diag ,your patience and methodical thinking gets the job done it appears few other techs are at your level. In my field now when I strike difficult issues I try to take a calm patient approach and see it as a interesting learning experience rather than a difficult time wasting problem .
I once had a computer network get hit by lightning. The lightning actually hit the ground which bypassed all of the surge protectors and cooked motherboards, network cards and modems, not to mention the phone system. Basically it was a ground fault power surge. Kind of like what you have there... so yes everything is cooked. Heads up, if the alternator voltage regulator isn't working correctly you can get another power spike that might cook everything again.... replace the alternator to protect the other modules. Better safe than sorry.
The one learning point of all these problems, grounds, and grounds are VIP's on modern cars. Great video w/ out all these spare parts almost impossible to solve.
I learned the importance of Good Grounds in the past working on a VW Rabbit Golf 1. The engine of that car had a broken groundcable the alternator found his ground through the right front wheel driveshaft and eat the wheelbearing.
GREAT Video! Had similar issue on my 2008 E60 and the oil level sensor pulled down the BSD network for alternator, IBS, and Oil Level. Stupid oil level sensor also caused "smart" alternator to not charge and left me stranded......GRRR! Also cost me a new alternator (replaced b/4 understanding the network failure, old alt still good!) and 8qts of new oil to replace the stupid oil level sensor. BMW: Please just put the did-stick back! PS: I had no grounding issues. Just the failed oil level sensor.
Great diagnosis Ivan! Let's replace a 15 cent dipstick with more computers than were on Apollo spacecraft. That makes sense. NOT! That is one car I will never buy. I feel sorry for the owner.
Haha you are the best at finding electrical faults and even you can be amazed still! 😊 So weird a car can have multiple faults in 3-4 different areas and affect a totally different area. Ugh....aggravating!! Good job.
One of my favorite customer's is dropping their Volkswagen Tiguan off tomorrow morning so I can troubleshoot, aka perform the diagnostic procedure step by step, some severe driveability issues. Replaced the brakes on it last fall when I had to surgically remove the triple square break caliper bolts which were rusted solid not in the threads but in the aluminum knuckle the bolts go thru. What a nightmare. Reminds me of replacing the rear upper control arms on this 2011 Ford Flex which require cutting the heads off the two grade 10.9 hardened bolts and replacing them with aftermarket bolts which were special order items. Way to tie up a lift for a few days
Excellent work PH. I wonder if this vehicle was ever driven into some deep water or some kind of flooding, considering thr VTG and the oil sensor both sit at the very bottom of the car. On a side note, I really like how that Thinktool pro lays out the modules in that tree pattern.👍
I don't mind the electronic oil level monitoring because honestly, how many average car owners today can open a hood, much less read a dipstick. (Followers of Ivan are not average car owners). But one fault that destroys other systems is totally unacceptable in today's engineering capabilities.
Forget that. Let them ruin an engine or two by being too lazy to check their oil and I bet they learn real quick. It’s not rocket science. You pull out the stick and see where the oil is on it. I don’t understand how we’ve gotten to the point where checking a dipstick is too advanced for some people. If you are going to own/drive a vehicle then you should know how to do the basics like checking fluids, air pressure, and changing a tire.
A new alternator did odd things my Volvo V70 D5, or rather odd things were happening with the old one. I'd been driving about with a disconnected front ABS sensor for 12months, but only got a warning message & DTC for it after fitting the new alternator. It was also the 1st time the diesel pre-glow lamp illuminated on the dash.
Lol that’s actually blowing my mind x) I had the similar Nissan Qashqai issue with ground ain’t attached to the engine. It cooked the ECM the way it was making ignition sparks when the engine wasn’t cranked 😄
Sweet outcome great case study A lot of useful info I bet right out of the gate u noticed the lin bus voltage way to low pulling from 8 volts to ground. John Thornton had an interesting case similar where the body module on a Nissan ( which is the master ) was only putting out 7 volts and other modules would pull it to ground. I believe ther was also no com just consistent pulses He took a test light and( in his own words ) jump started communication However the 12 volt master feed never returned but there was com Manufacturers are now putting two three or four slaves on a Lin bus and anyone of them can kill the private network. Thx again
A solid ground is everything. If even 1 ground connection is missing you may exceed the common mode range of the device in the module and that will probably fry it.
Thank you for a great BMW diag video! Where were you when I had this issue! LOL.... I also had a BMW 2007 X5 4.8i. It was ran low on oil, and set several Vanos codes. Ended up being the DME "Ram Backup" having an oil disturbed oil level issue. Only way to clear it, is with Ista. Procedure was resetting CBS in Predelivery Check. Bulletin SI B12 08 15
First omit dipsticks on transmissions. Then on engines?! It's sad that this guy had to drive that far to get someone that has the knowledge and is more concerned about customer's satisfaction than the mighty dollar!
No wonder pros like you and Eric call them Eurotrash.☹ I can see why someone would drive 15 hours to have you sort out this problem. Amazing diagnostic skills.👍👍
Guess for oil sensor. computer uses level information over time because it can move around a bunch as you drive. Finding average level. It had good information from good sensor. Still using that even while bad one is plugged in.
Way to go Ivan! Any chance you could take some of these module's covers off and show the circuitry on your videos? Maybee we could see some failures inside. Also with the covers off use a thermal Image when hooked up to vehicle if possibly...Thanks have a good week ahead
You really want to read the factory service manual before tackling this baby. Ignoring the ground connection is not advisable in any model. The present owner was prepared for all eventualities. Nice to see all modules working as they should. Programming seems to be another part of the agenda. The world Bank phone number for extra funding could come in handy. Don't think a BMW will be on the shopping list anytime soon. Job well done at the same time for such a complex diagnosis.
Start checking the actual coolant sometimes when U have to much electronics we started checking the ones that I took top tank plastic and bottom and sometimes they were getting electrolysis in the alloy of aluminium
Very interesting video, with some difficulties put in your way, which you worked through very well and was successful. Good job. A theory as to why the DME (or was it the ECM), Oil Level Sensor, and maybe the Alternator were taken out because the grounds (GND) were missing from the block. Without a ground, assuming the BSD bus devices use this ground, the BSD signal would be stuck at 12 Volts DC, or higher. There would be no ground to pull this signal down to.This connects to the Alternator as well as the Battery voltage (Red Wire). It may be, maybe, the Alternator generated a much higher voltage, say over 20 Volts DC (24 Volts DC or more), which powers these devices that quit working. Probably powers other devices, but maybe they could withstand it, or just lucky. Just a theory. Again, very interesting and well done.
Wait just a minute! Did I hear that right, no oil dip stick in that car? Now I have never owned one of these cars, but I can not imagine an engine without one. I would think that oil being so critical to the engine operation at a simple mechanical (non-electrical) is needed, it would never fail due to ground interruption.
I had an identical situation about 6 months ago with a 2009 BMW 750LI. The oil level sensor went bad and after changing it, the level sensor still wouldn't read right. Would also show a random battery discharge warning. I checked all the wiring, and the integrity was good. But more often than not, the signal wire would show about 1 and a half volts most of the time. And yet the alternator was charging just fine. I never did solve it. But I suspected a bad ECM was the issue.
First time I changed the oil on my wife's 16 BMW X6, I looked for the dipstick for several minutes before Googling it and finding out it didn't have one. 😄
This is crazy. Lincoln (well, Ford) got this right in the 80's. My '89 Town Car has a simple low oil level sensor which illuminates a clear warning light on the dashboard: Low Oil. Pretty obvious what is going on. Stop and put oil in it (manual says 1.5qtrs low when the lamp comes on if memory serves). Critically, this in addition to, not replacement of the dipstick (WTF!). Why in the world would they do CAN bus style communications to a module on the bottom of the car - high damage area! - and connected to the alternator - high failure rate part! - and then remove the reliable physical check? Why??? And then double down with terrible electrical engineering of failing to protect sensitive electronics from current loads due to a bad ground.
Good stuff Ivan. This is why I wouldn't want to own a BMW, Mercedes, VW or Audi. Typical German over engineering and complication. Great driving cars but you will need to form an intimate and expensive relationship with the respective stealership. Good luck.
Hi great videos If you don’t mind can you please let me know what diagnosis computers you use I am looking to get a more modern one and wondered what you think is best for European cars as I live in France
Ivan WOW! Bring Money With you to the extreme! He fired a Parts Nuke. It's ultimately ridiculous that a bad sensor takes out an engine computer. That is not smart engineering.
Ivan, I apologize! I sat here laughing everytime you got something fixed something else pops up! You did not get frustrated, and you forged ahead! Truly a REAL PROFESSIONAL! To put an oil level sensor in the bottom of the pan is crazy! Salt, sand, water, brine all coming at it outside! Then old oil, other contaminants hitting it inside! NUTS! Then no protection for the comm lines in the computer, the alternator dies because engine grounds are loose, no protection there! I guess this all answers my questions in part one's comments. "What caused these modules to go bad, or words to that effect!" I could say "BMW, The NON----ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE!" I like yours better.......BIG MONEY WASTED! This one's worse than the Euro Trash!
What's driving me nuts is where the camera symbol to the right of the screen near the middle comes from on Ivan's Thinkcar scanner? This must be some kind of option that needs to be purchased?
Lol looks like someone did the budget option for the leaking turbo lines. Its not a bad move considering, the engine will need to be replaced by 150K with new turbos and lines. Some opt out for timing chain and valve seal service but its cheaper to replace.the engine lol.
30 years working on BMW nothing ever surprises me any more, you won't believe how many cars get sold or get sent to the breakers yard because customers can't afford to fix them because they have so many expensive problems, great diagnosis Ivan
I would not trust something as important as the engine oil level to anything other than a good old fashion "stick it in and pull it out" dipstick!
Totally agree. My 2016 RRS has electronic oil level and I hate it. Get this though the dipstick tube is still there but just has a plastic cap over it and it is now used as an oil vacuum passage so you don't even pull an oil plug to do an oil change. The oil level has two modes as well, customer and service mode. Shit like this drives me nuts.
@@ohboy2118 when you buy something like this the manufacturers look at numbers, that means if the cars that contain this feature is selling, then the customer likes it.
Stop buying cars that has this feature so manufacturers stop putting it in. You vote with your money
@@ohboy2118 I think on Audi's you can buy a real dipstick for it
My 05 Dodge Magnum Hemi came with a dipstick tube but no stick on the transmission but B&M quickly offered one for sale. That's bad enough but no dipstick on the engine is unforgiveable.
Unfortunately, I think this new method is better for the average car owner. How many people today even know how to open a hood much less read a dipstick? (Followers of this channel excluded 😊)
Just finished both parts, this is unbelievable. Amazing perseverance with diagnosing this. This would never have been fixed without a visit to you. Kudos to the owner for having enough parts to complete this but I can't imagine the hours of research and money he's thrown at this!
Really hope he got the car cheap!
Stealership would have fleeced him
Two comments:
1) If everything were on one network, the car likely wouldn't have operated at all as these module faults began to occur, so the network complexity does provide a level of redundancy.
2) BMW designed this car to be compatible with parts cannon diagnostics. Just keep replacing modules in sets until it's fixed.
Finally Ivan had to use parts and did not give us another "no parts required" fix. I was drinking Vodka for every time he did that, so thanks for giving a my liver a break for once. Ivan's ability to peal the layers like an onion, layered chocolate cake or a Parfait on these complicated diagnosis is impressive. I can see how a shop would totally pass on these. I am left amazed again.
Cheers 🍻
Sunday with Ivan. Perfect.
Ivan, you did an incredible job on this car. I love seeing you plug in the scope on these cars because it erases any doubt about what is happening electrically. I love your customer who in my mind is very intelligent but also humble enough to know when he needs help. Thanks for Sharing!
Ivan, thanks for sharing the PICO waveforms. This adds a new dimension to your process which I personally find both intriguing and engaging. I don't know how often you include waveforms with your video, but I'm hoping I will see more of them in upcoming videos. Thanks for Sharing!
That was worth the 15 hour drive; great case studies. These cars really are made for wealthy people and corporations that run 3-4 year leases.
Or, you know, competent mechanics.
@@mungtor Nahhh... its not worth keeping a car that breaks often. I had a Q5 that needed the ECU programmed at the dealer due to water getting into the housing. Stupid designs, stupid expenses
A very experienced mechanic told me, "If you MUST have a European car, buy low mileage ( not new) and sell before 100,000 comes up, otherwise mortgage your house."
@@mungtor the car doesn't have a dipstick...
Another great job Ivan! I can feel what you really want to say about BMW’s. Over engineered, way too complex, oddball problems and on and on. No dipstick! Let’s rely on a a complex failure prone system to check oil level. Plus having to use a bmw battery with it’s own chip or else you lose electrical functions.
BMW engines don't need a dipstick since the dipstick sits behind the wheel. 😉
@@cullenmiller8170 BMW even advises you not to open the hood but to take it to a dealer on their info display. What’s next? 2001, Hal open the hood please. I’m sorry Dave I can’t let you do that.
It actually makes sense for mechanically challenged owners. If there is a low oil level warning light they might actually top it off.
Ivan, always love watching your videos as a technician myself. Your case studies and what you come across are incredible. I hope to be at your level one day, you gave me the courage to start using an oscilloscope in my regular diagnostic toolbox, thank you for that! Bravo on the diagnostic, very few technicians would've been able to do what you did.
Great to hear that you are using the scope, Sean! Harness the power! 💪
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics it's been pretty amazing using one, I'm always itching to get a vehicle with an issue I can use the scope on now. I had a 97 grand voyager come in with a crashed CCD bus and no coms on the bcm icm and pcm. Got a crash course in differential signaling with the inverse -4.45v and 4.5v on the bus wires. So cool diagnosing down to the component level within a module, I just wish they didn't pot the modules to where it's extremely difficult to repair the failed MOSFET or driver itself instead of using a reman module. I've learned a lot from you man!
That is quite the diagnosis, can't imagine the reason why these components get fried just because the grounds were left out.. on typical cars, they'll just wont work and will get back on line once ground is once again supplied. Thanks for taking us along Ivan! Cheers
Because BMW 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics , hahahaha
bad design that's why
sensor and control should be isolated from eachother inside the ecm
My guess: Modules grounded to engine get spiked by battery positive voltage on their ground leg, during CRANKING, when the engine's battery grounds are crappy or omitted. Remember that starter surge is in excess of 1000A, and a poorly grounded engine can act as a node in a voltage divider network. Now, one would hope that engineering hardens modules against reverse polarity and destructive currents, yet hooking up a battery backwards for just 100us might be enough to melt your credit card $$.
Ivan.....GEEK SQUAD for cars!
I've seen my fair share of broken engine computers on BMW MINI's from people leaving this ground on the valve cover floating, usually after changing the timing chain. This wire is the ground for the coils, resulting in voltage spikes to the ECM output. Interestingly, on MINI it usually breaks the 5v reference output, destroying the accelerator paddle in the process since the 5v output becomes 10v or so.
You could blame BMW, for a flaky design, but I also think mechanics should just put everything back together the way it is supposed to be connected. It's the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure the car works and is fixable, but it is the responsibility of the mechanic to fix it correctly.
I agree, however I also think the engineers should have realized that as the car is age a ground wire could simply corrode off or have a rodent eat through it. Should that really cause thousands in damage to expensive computers? What they should have done is run major ground wires through the engine computer harness itself. And any other module harnesses. So it as long as those are plugged in to their main harness they have a good ground. It would be fine to have additional grounds and other locations. But system critical grounds should have been run through the main bus connectors at the computer in the first place.
Their electrical engineers don't know what diodes are
@@kens97sto171 I highly doubt that BMW allows ground loops in their design rules. It would be a hell to pass EMC compliance rules with a solutuon like that. What they could have done IMO is decouple the ignition drivers from the 5v regulators better inside the ECU.
@@tomvleeuwen
I don't know. Every major electronic component in my car which happens to be a Toyota. Has its own grounds in the harness that connects to the component itself. There's certainly are some body grounds. Multiple grounds coming from different locations bonding to one grounding point on the chassis. But if you pull the connector off of the main computer, it carries its own ground.
If somewhere along the harness that ground came unconnected, it would simply not power up. To me that's the major design flaw in this BMW. The systems still functioned but allowed themselves to be damaged.
I guess it's possible you can consider that a backup that it would keep you from being stranded. I'm not sure which way is the better design philosophy.
After that ,I had to go out and give my '03 tacoma a hug !!!!
You could not give me a Break My Wallet. I wish the owner good luck. It had a laundry list of problems. Your patience is inspiring, unlike that car. No oil dipstick? No thanks.
That oil level sensor is $300 for aftermarket brand. A dipstick would not fail at all. Maybe some of the folks with BMW need to experience some of the service costs personally to understand their wild inventions and maintenance fees.
No ground wires connected to the engine? Opps...ouch.
BTW, nice 2X extra long hose clamps on those coolant hoses.
I've had a dipstick tube rust off and you can't get a new one because discontinued.
@@vw5056 Junk yard will have it
@A. Melbs Ask a repair shop to use their sources and fix it or, do the research. No one is coming anytime soon to help you. If you have no experience in salvage yards and how they are run...pass the job onto someone who is.
@A. Melbs Open your mind. YOU have to research the part. If that's too much to handle, forget the idea. You have to find the salvage yard on your own...or ask around or get some common sense fired up and challenge yourself in finding a source who has what is needed. Maybe a dipstick tube from a different engine will work, pull out the old rusted part from the block, cut off the rusted area of the old tube, weld on a replacement piece that yields the same length as the old one and press it into the block? Seems like a fair idea if you can't find the exact one. Most of them are the same diameter so order a new one that has the same diameter and do the above. There is no magic involved, just personal effort.
@A. Melbs Obviously you are not familiar with cars. Go peddle your papers elsewhere.
This is just astonishing. 5 parts including 3 computers at the same time! I don't know if he had to buy all the spares or if some of them were provided at no cost when he bought the car, but they still had to cost a ton of money. Congrats for the diagnosis. This could be a car at the dealer for a year and thousands of $$ fired to no avail kind of case so you still most likely saved him a good amount. Looks like you are of the very few automotive electronics wizard who can solve such cases.
I love the F10 generation of 5-series and most BMW models but each time I think they got better than E60s reliability wise, I'm proved wrong. And those were only electrical problems, wait until this pre-update N63 engine trashes its timing chain, VANOS actuators, valve stem seals and leaks oil...
This is a beautiful, fast and comfortable car and with Lexus-grade reliability, this car would be AMAZING. But it is what it is.
Range Rovers could still do worse however, it would be awesome to see one on the channel.
As you diagnosed, a faulty part on the BSD network can take down communications to any/all components on the network. The BSD errors started for my BMW AFTER alternator replacement. New TYC alternator charged fine but caused BSD error on water pump forcing it to run continuously at default/safety strategy. Final fix was replacing the voltage regulator on the TYC alternator with an OEM Bosch regulator. BSD errors gone and all modules happy. N54/2008.
Wow, so many modules going bad at same time as of the bad ground, just wow. A lot of money thrown at it. Ouch!! At least the diagnosis was correct and confirmed!! Awesome video! 👌
Exceptional perseverance, Ivan. I feel sorry for the owner. He seems like a smart guy, but he got suckered into a bad purchase. Friends don't let friends buy Eurotrash.
Great series Ivan. Those 60s and 70s cars are looking more and more attractive.
👍 well done Ivan. Having the parts on hand was a game changer in many ways. We need these jobs sometimes to learn from, for future jobs. Great diag two part series. Many moons ago, i had a oil level sensor give a crank no start on a e39 530.
You are such an honest, professional, excellent repair and troubleshooter-people are going to start paying plane tickets to have you and your scanner to travel to States to fix their automobiles or anything that has an engine.
I am so grateful that my 525i E34 was so reliable. I trully believe that those old BMW were the best. I also had a 325i E36 and it was a nightmare. I did junk this car because I was sick with all the expensive repairs. Move to MB and had and used W140 S320 that still runs, but man I move the more reliable cars. Now I have a Sonata as daily driver and just use the Merc on Sundays. I promised myself not to own more complicated german cars. They are good while in warranty, so forget about keeping any german car beyond the first 5 years. Ivan this is a great video. People drive 12 hours to your shop because you are the best!!!
I've never seen that before, i was wondering was the oil level sensor original or was it replaced by something aftermarket?
All original parts. Apparently starting the engine with the grounds disconnected caused ALL the problems 😬
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I had an 80 camaro that melted the shift cable if you had a bad ground.
@@frozenstang3868 Ah, the good old days. A simple and obvious fix using your own scan tools, your nose and eyes!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics This just proves my point that most of the problems on BMW's are caused by the "mechanics" not that the cars are bad... :) However, great diagnosis.
The oil sensors are infamous for failing around 75k-100k....
Dipstick by wire? Every BMW should come with an Ivan.
Dipstick by wire.... LOL
Every time I see you working on a German made car I make a pot of coffee because I know we are in for a long video.
BMW "Break My Wallet" Good job Ivan! Cheers!
Yay more cars with sensitive components.
With the technology avalible they can implement rugged Inputs and outputs.
But I guess a extra $20 per unit is to expensive.
Right i wish i could get my 94 camry back had zero issues
Another great diag ,your patience and methodical thinking gets the job done it appears few other techs are at your level. In my field now when I strike difficult issues I try to take a calm patient approach and see it as a interesting learning experience rather than a difficult time wasting problem .
I once had a computer network get hit by lightning. The lightning actually hit the ground which bypassed all of the surge protectors and cooked motherboards, network cards and modems, not to mention the phone system. Basically it was a ground fault power surge. Kind of like what you have there... so yes everything is cooked.
Heads up, if the alternator voltage regulator isn't working correctly you can get another power spike that might cook everything again.... replace the alternator to protect the other modules. Better safe than sorry.
The one learning point of all these problems, grounds, and grounds are VIP's on modern cars.
Great video w/ out all these spare parts almost impossible to solve.
I learned the importance of Good Grounds in the past working on a VW Rabbit Golf 1. The engine of that car had a broken groundcable the alternator found his ground through the right front wheel driveshaft and eat the wheelbearing.
Front wheel drive Chrysler mini vans did the same thing.
I’m SO glad my daughter got rid of her 2013 X5 diesel a couple years ago!
GREAT Video! Had similar issue on my 2008 E60 and the oil level sensor pulled down the BSD network for alternator, IBS, and Oil Level.
Stupid oil level sensor also caused "smart" alternator to not charge and left me stranded......GRRR!
Also cost me a new alternator (replaced b/4 understanding the network failure, old alt still good!) and 8qts of new oil to replace the stupid oil level sensor.
BMW: Please just put the did-stick back!
PS: I had no grounding issues. Just the failed oil level sensor.
“Got to pay to play”. That’s the honest truth. So many people I know who own expensive German cars who expect repair costs of a Toyota.
Too bad he had to drive so far, but it is fixed! I would drive as far if it guaranteed a fix as well! Well done Ivan as always!
Great diagnosis Ivan! Let's replace a 15 cent dipstick with more computers than were on Apollo spacecraft. That makes sense. NOT! That is one car I will never buy. I feel sorry for the owner.
One of the reasons I own a 12 valve Cummins!
Haha you are the best at finding electrical faults and even you can be amazed still! 😊 So weird a car can have multiple faults in 3-4 different areas and affect a totally different area. Ugh....aggravating!! Good job.
One of my favorite customer's is dropping their Volkswagen Tiguan off tomorrow morning so I can troubleshoot, aka perform the diagnostic procedure step by step, some severe driveability issues. Replaced the brakes on it last fall when I had to surgically remove the triple square break caliper bolts which were rusted solid not in the threads but in the aluminum knuckle the bolts go thru. What a nightmare. Reminds me of replacing the rear upper control arms on this 2011 Ford Flex which require cutting the heads off the two grade 10.9 hardened bolts and replacing them with aftermarket bolts which were special order items. Way to tie up a lift for a few days
BMW is nuts. All this technology to replace a dipstick? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Great diagnostic Ivan.
Great video Ivan!! I appreciate the time you take to make the video for sure!!!!
Excellent work PH. I wonder if this vehicle was ever driven into some deep water or some kind of flooding, considering thr VTG and the oil sensor both sit at the very bottom of the car. On a side note, I really like how that Thinktool pro lays out the modules in that tree pattern.👍
No flooding.
I don't mind the electronic oil level monitoring because honestly, how many average car owners today can open a hood, much less read a dipstick. (Followers of Ivan are not average car owners). But one fault that destroys other systems is totally unacceptable in today's engineering capabilities.
Forget that. Let them ruin an engine or two by being too lazy to check their oil and I bet they learn real quick. It’s not rocket science. You pull out the stick and see where the oil is on it. I don’t understand how we’ve gotten to the point where checking a dipstick is too advanced for some people. If you are going to own/drive a vehicle then you should know how to do the basics like checking fluids, air pressure, and changing a tire.
A new alternator did odd things my Volvo V70 D5, or rather odd things were happening with the old one. I'd been driving about with a disconnected front ABS sensor for 12months, but only got a warning message & DTC for it after fitting the new alternator. It was also the 1st time the diesel pre-glow lamp illuminated on the dash.
Lol that’s actually blowing my mind x) I had the similar Nissan Qashqai issue with ground ain’t attached to the engine. It cooked the ECM the way it was making ignition sparks when the engine wasn’t cranked 😄
Sorry to hear that it'll cost to fix it.
Good news You'll look good driving in a BMW
Sweet outcome great case study
A lot of useful info
I bet right out of the gate u noticed the lin bus voltage way to low pulling from 8 volts to ground.
John Thornton had an interesting case similar where the body module on a Nissan ( which is the master ) was only putting out 7 volts and other modules would pull it to ground.
I believe ther was also no com just consistent pulses
He took a test light and( in his own words ) jump started communication
However the 12 volt master feed never returned but there was com
Manufacturers are now putting two three or four slaves on a Lin bus and anyone of them can kill the private network.
Thx again
A solid ground is everything. If even 1 ground connection is missing you may exceed the common mode range of the device in the module and that will probably fry it.
Thank you for a great BMW diag video! Where were you when I had this issue! LOL.... I also had a BMW 2007 X5 4.8i. It was ran low on oil, and set several Vanos codes. Ended up being the DME "Ram Backup" having an oil disturbed oil level issue. Only way to clear it, is with Ista. Procedure was resetting CBS in Predelivery Check. Bulletin SI B12 08 15
First vehicle/machine ever that I've seen have a code for "the alternator is missing." Lol that cracks me up!
I'm trying so hard to still love my BMW after this video!
Ivan, Two Things I learned....1, Never purchase a BMW. 2, Now I know why Germany lost the War. And you did a wonderful job. BMW (Break MY Wallet).
First omit dipsticks on transmissions.
Then on engines?!
It's sad that this guy had to drive that far to get someone that has the knowledge and is more concerned about customer's satisfaction than the mighty dollar!
Ivan is like the maestro with his obd scanner .
No wonder pros like you and Eric call them Eurotrash.☹ I can see why someone would drive 15 hours to have you sort out this problem. Amazing diagnostic skills.👍👍
Guess for oil sensor. computer uses level information over time because it can move around a bunch as you drive. Finding average level. It had good information from good sensor. Still using that even while bad one is plugged in.
Parts Canon required. I wonder why a bad ground takes all those modules out, tho. Doesn't seem very fault tolerant to me. Thanks, Ivan
BMW = Bring More Wallet
Or, Big Money Wasted.
Bought My Wife
Way to go Ivan! Any chance you could take some of these module's covers off and show the circuitry on your videos? Maybee we could see some failures inside. Also with the covers off use a thermal Image when hooked up to vehicle if possibly...Thanks have a good week ahead
You really want to read the factory service manual before tackling this baby. Ignoring the ground connection is not advisable in any model. The present owner was prepared for all eventualities. Nice to see all modules working as they should. Programming seems to be another part of the agenda. The world Bank phone number for extra funding could come in handy. Don't think a BMW will be on the shopping list anytime soon. Job well done at the same time for such a complex diagnosis.
Each coil has a dedicated ground, now we know why, to prevent damage to all those sensitive electronic components.
Start checking the actual coolant sometimes when U have to much electronics we started checking the ones that I took top tank plastic and bottom and sometimes they were getting electrolysis in the alloy of aluminium
Priceless work 👌
Wow it really needed a few shots from the parts cannon. What a puzzle
Wow!!😳😳...unbelievable, awesome video 👍😎
Very interesting video, with some difficulties put in your way, which you worked through very well and was successful. Good job.
A theory as to why the DME (or was it the ECM), Oil Level Sensor, and maybe the Alternator were taken out because the grounds (GND) were missing from the block. Without a ground, assuming the BSD bus devices use this ground, the BSD signal would be stuck at 12 Volts DC, or higher. There would be no ground to pull this signal down to.This connects to the Alternator as well as the Battery voltage (Red Wire). It may be, maybe, the Alternator generated a much higher voltage, say over 20 Volts DC (24 Volts DC or more), which powers these devices that quit working. Probably powers other devices, but maybe they could withstand it, or just lucky. Just a theory.
Again, very interesting and well done.
It will be interesting to see if the legendary BMW reliability carries through to their electric cars.
Wait just a minute! Did I hear that right, no oil dip stick in that car? Now I have never owned one of these cars, but I can not imagine an engine without one. I would think that oil being so critical to the engine operation at a simple mechanical (non-electrical) is needed, it would never fail due to ground interruption.
Ivan, this just confirms that I dont want to buy any BMW anytime soon.
No BMW's for me. Thanks for these videos.
Subtle touche complex delicate .is not simple any more good work Ivan
Ivan with all these people driving from long distances away from you....I might be next!!
Lol I just checked, it's only 11 hours!!
What state does he live in?
Pennsylvania
I had an identical situation about 6 months ago with a 2009 BMW 750LI. The oil level sensor went bad and after changing it, the level sensor still wouldn't read right. Would also show a random battery discharge warning. I checked all the wiring, and the integrity was good. But more often than not, the signal wire would show about 1 and a half volts most of the time. And yet the alternator was charging just fine. I never did solve it. But I suspected a bad ECM was the issue.
First time I changed the oil on my wife's 16 BMW X6, I looked for the dipstick for several minutes before Googling it and finding out it didn't have one. 😄
Unreal. Thanks Ivan!
Unbelievable. What a cool bunch of diags.
Ivan rings BMW for a dipstick... reply: "wait a moment, i'll put you through to that department"
This is crazy. Lincoln (well, Ford) got this right in the 80's. My '89 Town Car has a simple low oil level sensor which illuminates a clear warning light on the dashboard: Low Oil. Pretty obvious what is going on. Stop and put oil in it (manual says 1.5qtrs low when the lamp comes on if memory serves). Critically, this in addition to, not replacement of the dipstick (WTF!). Why in the world would they do CAN bus style communications to a module on the bottom of the car - high damage area! - and connected to the alternator - high failure rate part! - and then remove the reliable physical check? Why??? And then double down with terrible electrical engineering of failing to protect sensitive electronics from current loads due to a bad ground.
Interesting one. All because of disconnected ground wires. Must be the parts didn't like voltage spikes?
That's why so many "mom and pop" shops refuse to work on BMWs, unless they are pre electronic everything age.
1000 miles per quart is not bad..the N63 F10 550 I got rid of was going through a quart every 200 miles
HOLY CRAP BLUE SMOKE MACHINE 😂
you do need to replace the alternator, the ecu will not know when to correctly charge the battery as it cant read the signal
Yep.. bad alternator can cause a lot of issues with a lot of modules
It just defaults to 14V which is fine 👌
thank you sir! really interesting!!
I'd rather ride a donkey then own something like that. Great job 👍!
Good stuff Ivan. This is why I wouldn't want to own a BMW, Mercedes, VW or Audi. Typical German over engineering and complication. Great driving cars but you will need to form an intimate and expensive relationship with the respective stealership. Good luck.
These cars don't have a passenger seat next to the driver. That position is reserved for your mechanic.
OIL BURNER
Hi great videos
If you don’t mind can you please let me know what diagnosis computers you use I am looking to get a more modern one and wondered what you think is best for European cars as I live in France
Good video. Just another reminder of why i almost bought a beamer, but didnt!
Ivan WOW! Bring Money With you to the extreme! He fired a Parts Nuke. It's ultimately ridiculous that a bad sensor takes out an engine computer. That is not smart engineering.
ALL PARTS REQUIRED
If that much goes out at once it makes me wonder if improper voltage from the alternator was the root cause, frying some of the modules.
Great job!
The joys of one-wire data busses!
You definitely weren't getting away with a no parts required on that 1 Ivan
I'm new here. Great diagnostics. Does this channel ever fix anything?
NEVER 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Hope you know I was joking. Ha. Keep the diags coming. Good stuff.
Ivan, I apologize! I sat here laughing everytime you got something fixed something else pops up! You did not get frustrated, and you forged ahead! Truly a REAL PROFESSIONAL!
To put an oil level sensor in the bottom of the pan is crazy! Salt, sand, water, brine all coming at it outside! Then old oil, other contaminants hitting it inside! NUTS!
Then no protection for the comm lines in the computer, the alternator dies because engine grounds are loose, no protection there! I guess this all answers my questions in part one's comments. "What caused these modules to go bad, or words to that effect!"
I could say "BMW, The NON----ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE!"
I like yours better.......BIG MONEY WASTED! This one's worse than the Euro Trash!
I suspect aftermarket cheap part wiped all of those. Workin on BMWs for 10 years, ive never seen so many modules dead at the same time.
No aftermarket parts...
What's driving me nuts is where the camera symbol to the right of the screen near the middle comes from on Ivan's Thinkcar scanner? This must be some kind of option that needs to be purchased?
Lol looks like someone did the budget option for the leaking turbo lines. Its not a bad move considering, the engine will need to be replaced by 150K with new turbos and lines. Some opt out for timing chain and valve seal service but its cheaper to replace.the engine lol.
The 8V at LIN seems to me too low, it is supposed to go up to battery voltage...