Customer Drove 15 HOURS...BMW 4x4 VTG No-Comm?
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- Опубликовано: 3 мар 2022
- Here we go again...it's EURO TIME!
This sporty 2011 BMW 550i is suffering from some weird electrical issues.
Two main customer complaints are that the AWD 4x4 system doesn't work since the car can't communicate with the VTG AWD module.
Also, he can't check the engine oil level since the fancy Oil Level Monitoring system is dead, and there is NO DIPSTICK. hahahaha
Luckily the customer brought a whole trunkful of spare parts, so let's dive in and see if any parts are required!
IVAN'S PICO WAVEFORMS:
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THINK TOOL PROS:
www.amazon.com/dp/B08XXWHQVJ?...
Enjoy!
Ivan 
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I can't imagine what a dealer would have done with this problem. Probably replace everything on that bus and start over but change the customer a king's ransom. Great job, Ivan. Thanks!
The customer couldn't imagine either so he drove it to the best
Yeah, the dealer is a mistake for electrical gremlins. I just spent a whole month diagnosing one in my out of warranty 340i. I needed to prove to the dealer that the telematics module installed 12 months prior as part of a campaign stops communicating when the weather is 45F or colder. It’s absolutely crazy how complicated cars are these days 😤
Wow that customer drove a long way! and fortunately not for nothing!
That VTG must have taken out that channel on the ZGM.
Loved this episode Ivan💪
Thanks Dan! It gets better in Episode 2 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Can't wait! Have a great weekend 💪
That's funny I was thinking that Diag. Dan would diag this with Ivan. It would be kool if Ivan did a call a friend episode.
It was worth the trip or get rip off by your stealership.
All these modules, when all you need is a car to go to work and stores. Truly insane.
Numbers of modules is not the issue. Its bad design and manufacturing or assembly. Or some combination. Euro cars are endless money pits once they get older. You would likely not have the same issues with a Toyota or Honda.
Tesla on the Model 3 and Y have 3 large computers that take care of most of this. There are some small modules used at end points like door switches etc. Also.. NO FUSES, they have resettable breakers inside those main computers, with redundant backups. those breakers also have protection circuits to prevent permanent damage. And the car has detailed info on the fault. pretty interesting designs. There are some cool RUclips channels that go into details about these.
@@kens97sto171 I disagree. The more there is to go wrong, the more that will go wrong. Plus compare the cost of replacing (for example) a throttle cable versus electronic throttle valve assembly. You think the price is anywhere close?
Today’s vehicles are way over-complicated for the average consumer.
@@alskooper3319
Nope.. it's the quality of the engineering. I've never had an electronic throttle body fail. And if it does.. it's 4 bolts and an electrical connector to swap it. Vs.. pulling a new cable and sheath thru the firewall.
I've got 394,000 on my Toyota... Still all original everything.
Looking at those optional modules reminds me of how IBM mainframes where updated by a simple flip of some switches! You had to pay up to enable your hardware to work at it's full potential.
we need three pedals, floor high beam switch, carburetor and points back again...
then we'll see who's still driving around. lol
Damn right I'd drive 15 hours for Ivan's diagnostics. He seems like a national resource treasure.
It also means that good mechanics are very few and very far between.
Hi Alex. Just want to thank you for saving my son $2,500. Shortly after my son pulled his radio out of the dash, his transmission failed. No indicator PDNR. Mechanic said he needs a new transmission. “Very normal for 2017 Toyota”. Oh. There was loose wire floating around behind the dash. Previous owner installed his out sound system. I told him to push the car if he needs to, but, to get away from this guy. The car still drove, but not normal. The guy diagnosed this with a flashlight.
After watching almost all your videos, I begged him to see mechanic who has diagnostic tools and knows how to use them. Turns out it was a fuse. He tidied up the wires and all is well. TYVM
Who's Alex?
You mean, Ivan?
@@billbyrd9845 Given the current geo-political-climate our presenter has decided to temporarily rebrand to Alex
@@billbyrd9845 The guy from Legit Street Cars ?
Is Alex Ivans US street name? ;-)
A customer drives 15 hours to get his car fixed by Ivan! Wow, talk about working under pressure to make a correct diagnosis. Ivan, really appreciate your channel.
Great diagnose Ivan, just a quick tip. To see a good flexray signal with the pico scope you have to use the 100 MHz Oscilloscope Probe. The signal will be much cleaner.
Ivan is not your typical “dime a dozen” tech/mechanic, I would drive (if it were drive-able) my vehicle from LA to PA to have him diagnose and repair if I was not able to do it myself….in fact I’m pretty convinced at this point that no matter if it’s a vehicle or a toaster or anything in between, if it has moving parts and electronics Ivan can fix it.
The customer was on the right track. I think he suffered from Burn Out thus he gave up. I've been there before and had another set of eyes just to point out my last step to go.
Well he suffered "Parts Cannon Burnout" since he didn't have a scope 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics but he had BMW ista😂
Without the scope you wouldn't have know the right combination still.
Good job Ivan
Ivan is a computer geek, that happens to repair cars, LOL
But, amazingly I understood his whole line of reasoning and managed to keep up. Thanks Man!
LOL, I almost kept up
To boldly go where no man has gone before! This is the voyage’s of pine hollow diagnostic.
Would love to have seen Diagnose Dan’s methodology on this one. Good job Ivan, but man was that owner prepared!
Dan would have more experience with BMWs.
Who is Dan? never heard of him.
Love Diagnose Dan!
At around 4:15 it seems it shut off the ignition during the clearing of the fault codes and you seem to force it back on. It should cycle the ignition automatically for you as it's part of the the clearing procedure. Also the gateway doesn't really need programming in the sense that it doesn't need a software update and the ZGW doesn't contain any coding. It does however store the vehicle order (VIN,build date, and options list and it's also stored in the CAS module as a backup) and it also stores the SVT. The SVT is a list of all modules installed and on which bus and channel they should be. The ZGW needs this SVT so it knows which modules to expect on which flexray channel. If the SVT doesn't match the actual layout of modules of the car certain modules might not get initialised on flexray even though they are connected. That's your issue. Restoring the SVT and properly initialising all flexray modules takes about 10 minutes for someone like me with the proper software and knowledge, I could even do that remotely over the internet ;)
Same as the conclusion in other words?
I don't understand why BMW (and other manufacturers) do it that way. Why not have the ZGW smart enough to pull an ID from each module, create an inventory and be minimally smart enough to send a signal for each module to wake up and start operating (the same thing your PC does)? If the module doesn't have an ID, then it won't get initialized.
Of course, cars are smart enough now that they should be able to self-diagnose and display their codes on the head-unit in the car, so the consumer can see the same thing the dealer/shop can, even if they can't fix it.
@@teekay_1 Code info is meaningless to the vast majority of car owners, the amount of information is huge. So apart from a curious few, no point in programming that stuff to display on the head unit. Code readers are cheap enough.
Codes only indicate systems that are affected, not what is wrong with any particular part. How often do we see crazy codes that end up simply being a bad earth, (sorry "ground")?
What is Flexray, ZGW, SVT? I know sometimes the car goes wonky due to low batteries. I have an e39 that had EWS problem because the owner had been trying to start it with a very low battery. Using INPA I was able to resynch the key to the EWS to the ECM.
@@Cheepchipsable I say that because while code readers are cheap for the minimally handy, dealers still charge a diagnosis fee of $50-100 to do a code read which is silly. It's like a dealer charging you a fee for using a wrench on your car.
Sure, only a few people will care about it, but the car is smart enough to do it, and digging three layers deep into menus isn't that big a deal to read the codes. And coding is cheap, and could be reusable across an entire line of cars.
Ahh, BMW’s. I had a 650Ci convertible for two years and it was the car of both dreams and nightmares. BMW and mechanics that specialize in BMW’s can clear a savings account in a New York minute. Loved the car, hated when it broke, leaked, made new noises. The worst was when it told you to randomly pull over, then a restart and no problems.
Scope required for that one. Well done Ivan 🤙🏻🤯
Ivan, check out BMW bulletin B 12 18 12. If the injector/ignition grounds are left loose or at some point during a repair (usually injectors) it will try and find a ground through the VTG damaging the VTG control unit and the BSD users. I have also found it can damage the DME or ZGM in some cases.
I have built complex industrial automation systems that were far less complicated that this BMW. This car is complexity for the sake of being complex. What is going to happen to all of these cars in 50+ integrated modules, 3-4 different communication bus types (plus multiple instances of each type) in a few years when the manufacture quits supporting them and/or diagnostic tools quit supporting them? "Oh sorry! The flouzaldorfer module on your car requires a software update to fix this problem but the manufacture does not support updates anymore!"
I wonder if people will eventually turn away from these overly complex cars?
Wow, that made my head spin! Way too many modules on these vehicles. Ivan did a great job diagnosing that problem. I guess I will never understand why they make it so complicated to just turn on the heater or radio, roll down a window, blow the horn, turn on the headlights, or many other simple jobs.
We have to make the 8yr university degree people feel valuable
And you wonder why there is a chip shortage. They are insane.
@@justanothertroll9476 most 8 year university degree people's brains are mush wouldnt be able to fix this
I understand why they do it as it cuts down drastically on the amount of wiring needed for all of the electronics that cars have these days but they need to work on their implementation. They need better network layouts and more reliable fault recognition in these networks. With the way they daisy chain all of these modules together sometimes a simple pinched/shorted wire can cause havoc and make everything go haywire. A central gateway with every module having its own path that can be easily isolated should be something every manufacturer has especially GM with all of the terminal and connector issues they tend to have had for years now. It’s 2022. Why is it so difficult for them to build a network of modules that can reliably detect and isolate a faulty module or the wiring of the network that the module is on? One fatigued terminal can bring the whole car to its knees and that should be unacceptable for the price they are asking for new cars these days. Early on they were doing pretty good with star connectors and acces points where you could quickly isolate the network and take modules offline at a central point.
@@Jpilgrim30 great comment! Yes, easily accessible Star junction connectors are absolutely beautiful when it comes to network diagnostics 👌
15hrs for a guaranteed fix on a BMW is worth it, even with gas prices. Could you imagine what the dealer would charge and probably not even guarantee a fix?
My buddy spent $12,000 at the Mercedes dealership trying to get his car fixed.
I forget what the issue/repair was, but I do remember that it was something simple and just took the right skill set to figure out. I think the car was worked on for about 6 months and every part had to be imported from Europe.
I wouldn’t trust this car enough to drive it 15 hrs.
@@hkfan4596 15 mins!
@@hkfan4596 The owner was probably driving it that way for months. An extra 15 hours was worth the risk.
I have a better idea. Don't own one. lol
Owner of a 2011 550 M-Sport here - the M-Sport package is from the factory, no aftermarket, totally unrelated to anything M except the name. It's basically just looks, includes various things like some M badges in places, front and rear bumper differences, and some claim there are some suspension changes. Can't verify that part. Personally the M-Sport bumpers look great to me, and in my car I got a different steering wheel with it which I think is a huge upgrade.
Ivan, you're a genius when it comes to diagnosis. Really excited to see what you and Keith have in store for us. Thanks again for taking time to meet me and look at my truck.
No more BMW’s. Lol. Way to complex to many modules. Ivan thanks for sharing 👍
Wow, that would drive me bonkers on figuring out the issues with the so many modules!, haha! At least you got there and kudos to the owner to bring extra modules and laptop! That is a real treat for you!! I learned a bit on how the communication works, short to ground etc. Awesome! Many thumbs up! 👍
Love your work. Greetings from Australia from a " Retired " Motor mechanic.
Another interesting diagnosis Ivan! Can't believe that its already to a point that vehicles are on the level of programming modules individually as compared to just the main ecu. Looking forward to the next videos and again, thanks for taking us along.. Cheers!
It is just another trick by BMW to stop people from working on their cars. Instead of buying a new part or getting a used part to fix the problem, now you need to get the module program to work with the car. Most small repair shops that don't specialize in BMW will not be able to work on the car since they will not have access to the software to reprogram the modules.
@@upallnight888 Not just BMW, many makes are doing the same thing, The Euros were just the first ones to start the trend.
Drove fifteen hours in a BMW! I thought it was click bait at first. I didn’t have that much luck on mine. 🙂
Another great one! I look forward to every one of your videos! Great job!
Thanks for doing this *Pine Hollow Auto-Diagnostic* the camera work is excellent.
....but you always bring your *A-Game.*
Now here is the amazing thing about Ivan and this diagnostic wasn't even his most challenging from all the videos I've watched.
What's really so amazing is that he performs all of these diagnostics single handedly, I mean literally single handedly.
Ivan has one hand managing the camera and one hand managing the test equipment. In all honesty, that is a pretty amazing feat!
If Ivan said in essence, "I could troubleshoot and diagnose that problem fault with one hand tied behind my back",
I'd believe and trust that he was telling the truth!
Love the channel Ivan.... Stay Safe.
haha it's a challenge sometimes when there's no good spot to put the tripod 😅
Wow, you’re way above my head on this one! Great job.
Looking at the customers laptop looks like ista (bmw diagnostic software). He should be able to program the new module from that as it conects to the bmw mothership and pulls down the information from them against the vin. When you use ista it makes sure all the modules in the vehicle are all at the correct software level and programs it to that level. Great video as always 👍
No it’s a cloned software, without full capability
WELL IVAN ,you lost me on this one. Way over my head. It's a good thing the guy who brought this to you is smart enough to ASK FOR HELP.GUYS if you don't know what's going on with a car you're working on ,there is NO SHAME in going to some who does. or in this case i think even IVAN had to ask himself could it be? this or that.I really think the dealership would have made their whole weeks worth of repair money on this one and maybe still failed to fix it.So i guess even if someone says to me at a gas station here I'll trade you my BMW for your 1975 pinto 4 banger ,I SHOULD TURN HIM DOWN????/haha
Thank you for the kind words Roberto. Owner was an engineer and BMW enthusiast, so was very eager to learn more about his car and the diagnostic process 🙂👍
Is that an option on a BMW where you get a trunk full of spare modules? I used to carry a spare fuel pump relay for my W124 Mercedes since those would leave you stranded in a heart beat.
Ivan, just watched both episode and loved what an AWESOME thought processing and approach brother always learning from the best thank for sharing. cheeeeers
Nice video ! The Complexities of these High tech vehicles ! Thanks Ivan
Hey drove 15 hours just to go see Ivan. I guess it's because Missouri loves company! Bada boom! 😅😂 Good video Ivan!
Grew up in Cleveland, went to college at Penn state. I spend a whole lot of time in the rockies. Central PA is my favor place. So jealous of Ivan.
I’m at 2 minutes & I have to pause & comment. You are some man Ivan for taking on difficult issues. I really must take my hat off to you & I have no doubts but you will fix it. Some man 😉
you are one smart guy been watching since you launched motoyam82 loving your vids
The podcast I never get tired of.
You can tell it's a well-driven BMW; the guy who owns it has to keep a gallon of coolant in the trunk. Only car I've owned that I had to replace the water pump twice because it weeps coolant from the pump after about 50K miles and of course the infamous design of the pressurized overflow tank fails 2 or 3 times while you own the car. I can see they still haven't changed that design.... too profitable for the dealers.
I think this car has FOUR electric coolant pumps... Insanity! 😬
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Superior German engineering?
Amazing a BMW of that vintage made that drive. Also amazing he's not there trying to get you to fix his burned out turbos, and melted valve seals etc.
Holy shit. I had to have a shot of Irish whiskey for early St. Patrick's Day, just by watching this video! Way over my head but my gosh, you are miracle worker?
Klemme 30,15,31,31C are standard signals in Automotive for Europe. You can wiki this KL15 is Ignition, KL30 is Permanent 12V, KL31 is Ground and so on ... Such a pitty the owner didn't try all combinations of parts, he could have spared himself the 15 hour drive.
Ivan is like maestro on fixing electronic gremlins .
Of all the automobile diagnosis videos I have watched in the past few years I have to say the first thing any mechanic should consider is...connecting a battery maintainer first and then a 20 foot long + and - jumper to use for diagnosis like Ivan used here in this video. You will never know how much time will be taken to diag and you won't know for sure you have proper voltage without them.
Interesting Notes
Part of Scottyys mantra that older BMWs are money pits and depreciate so much.
Well that was in a mess, when you showed the data lines were being shorted out i thought ahh a physical module problem.
But it's never as easy as that lol.
Two modules causing hell, blame bmw lol.
And a module that should have been programmed correctly but wasn't.
We have been here before lol :-D.
Again!
Your experience is showing!
"It's just a machine." 😉
Nice work 👏
Sounds a lot to me like the VTG went bad shorting the FlexRay transceivers to ground, which took out the bus transceivers on the gateway as a result.
Keith would love this car, thank u Ivan from staten island
Wow 15 hours is probably around 1000 miles driving. At 25 mpg/$4 gal that is $320 just in gas! But as others have said it is still less expensive then going to a dealer, etc.
I am curious how you would have diagnosed the 2 bad modules without having spares on hand? Clearly the owner is atypical and is vested in this type of complex eurotech. I will never understand why people HAVE to have these types of vehicles? Self aggrandizing? Vanity? To me a vehicle is just to get me safely from A to B. All I need is a heater and radio. Bring back simple cars (Im partial to 1990s Ford Escort 5-speeds)
Paul (in MA)
ps I thought the 'flexray' was some kind of alien weapon
❤️ Escort 5 speed, 👌
IVAN THIS IS BETTER THAN GOIN TO SCHOOL GOOD THECNIIC VERY GOOD VIDEO
He ready for Rocky mountain Race Week , With all the Electronic parts !
Moral of the story? When the warranty runs out, run away, run away! Unless you know an Ivan and are willing to drive from Missouri. :D
1. What could have taken out two modules? 2. What will happen to the new modules when they are programmed?
So far, it looks like the system is coming back to life.
Good work Ivan!
On to part 2.
Great question, Mike! Part 2 will be interesting :)
Ivan
What power and grounds are common to these modules?
We've seen "damaged," corroded or rusted grounds. What about alternator ripple, damaged positive connectors, a battery that was changed due to an old battery with a weak cell? My wife's 06 Kia Sorento V6 used to burn out headlight and tail light bulbs from time to time. The alternator output was stable, no ripple, battery connections clean and tight. When the battery started having problems I replaced it and all the light problems stopped!
Only one other time did I see that problem on an 04 Ford F350 utility body truck where I worked before retirement. And it was the only truck that had that problem in the City Fleet! Batteries can cause odd problems! Just a suggestion.
15 hours = you are the man
I sold the Contour. Engine was too much to fix, plus the lower intake manifold is unavailable easily. Got $1,000 for it.
I did get a 2001 Toyota Corolla with 215,000 miles as a replacement. I don't like how the gas cap tightens, so I am going to replace that (it has a P0440, P0441 and P0446 codes), which are large Leak and it points to the gas cap being faulty, but it could be the purge valve and vent valve as well. The second issue is pending P0770 shift solenoid 1(A) code. That apparently is part of the torque converter lockup feature (I did notice today it shifted a bit oddly). Gas cap is extremely hard to tighten and have it click positively. It clicks but I think it is an aftermarket cap since it does not have the tether on it or Toyota part number on it.
The car runs very well, nice and quiet down the road and no engine noises or transmission noises that are odd. Much easier on gas than the contour. Goes into ready mode very quickly on the readiness monitors (the contour had a problem getting the evap monitor ready since it constantly had a vacuum leak at the lower intake manifold
Made that look easy Ivan!
Ivan You are fantastic and excellent in troubleshooting. I do enjoy it myself. You have one of the best movies among Rays repair or south main auto etc... They are good also but after a certain time they are boring as they do again and again same stuff like brakes, suspension etc... Electrical troubleshooting with scopes and scanners are a real hard stuff. However 97% of the cases are related to home repair, Tunning and improper repairs - by amateurs. I do not see many Toyota cars in your "garage". Keep up good work
Wonder why you do not see many Toyotas could it be that they are better cars ?
Take it easy. Good luck
Nice work i learn a lot today sow cool thank you
What a mess. Thanks Ivan!
Ivan is the Man 👍👍
You are a better man than I. I'd see a BMW I would have run the other way. 🤣 Great learning video.though my friend.
The Car Ninja in Kansas for sure will be able to program those modules!!
was very curious to know if the launch was capable of doing the programming! great content! keep it coming
The m badge on the foot board or what ever it is its just an option you can get M styling upgrades with out being an M car. Most likely its just a factory addon or bmw makes m sport which isnt a M competition which most people think of. Maybe its a m sport? Idk anyways another great video ivan
Ivan is fearless.... I pass on any European vehicle, especially of the Germanic persuasion...
Lol I never get the warm fuzzy feeling with Euro diags 😂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I do but it may or may not involve matches and jet fuel! Sorry, that's just a warm toasty feeling.
Sometime parts canon helps haa with a right tool good work Ivan
Worth the trip 100%
The M badges aren’t aftermarket. They’re the M division badge, so come on models with an extra M sport kit etc….. visual upgrades and maybe a suspension upgrade too
Top of class Troubleshooter!!
Ivan if u ever come down to Texas let me know., have some really cool stuff you would enjoy seeing, driving and riding., 2000 bmw Z3 roadster , some honda CT70S, and some really good backroads to run them on. no need to get a hotel, I have a outbuilding with A/C and plenty of room to set a cot in. I have a 1970 honda z50 with a cracked crankcase we could tear down and put in another case I bought. Im just an old shade tree mechanic that loves wrenching and have learned so much abt these newer vehicles from your vids,, !!! your always welcome to stay at my little ranchette if you come to Texas.. no charge and treat u like family. im in central Texas./ formery went by TEXAS TOUGH.
Notice the technique
Thats how to troubleshoot
Great vidio 👍
The way how your scope is connected, you will see these high speed (Flexray is 10MBd) signals heavily distorted by ringing, it would never look better. Even when normally the Flexray are differential nearly rectangular signals with voltage +/-0.6V of differential voltage.
With your long wires I won't be surprised the reflection on them will disturb the signals so much the communication may actually fail...
And the termination on Flexray is really specified as 100 Ohm, so the 95 is about OK, taking into account a few ICs connected to it.
Good job
You should look into learning how to use E-sys ... Will help out alot in the future... other then that great video...
Ivan the "BMW Whisperer" !
Lol the m sport badging is an optional extra from Bmw when the car is new. Although there was once a time when a m sport badge meant it was an m sport.
Nice work Ivan! What do you need when you fix one of these? Big Money Wallet. Overly complicated for no reason at all.
This is why I love my 54 Studebaker.....
I’m about ready to drive 40 hours just to hang out and learn. I’ll even buy lunch’s.
Need your diagnostics. Fly you round trip to Rockford IL. 08 e320 Bluetec needs help asap.
it's going to be something stupid, like a battery sensor shorting out the dataline. there is a pair of wires coming out of the module for each device, but inside they are all connected. seen a benz do that, even the hazard lights stop working, thats brilliant. i didn't have a spare gateway module so the damn thing had to be taken out and taken apart before i figured that it's something else.
Great video very helpful. I have same issues similar car 750li xdrive same codes .my question is I'm new to using pico scope what are setting to do felxray test.dont want to keep buying modules to fix the problem.
This is y I like old school cars
Dealers generaly dont want to deal with cars outside of warranty. Their strategy is to give you a bill so high that you get discouraged. But in all honesty as a someone who works on BMW for a living, they have very complicated multi connected, multi bused system. Requires either superb diagnostic skills to troubleshoot or ISTA but who has a several thousand $ OEM software.
Sounds like the TCM took out the Gateway Module, pretty common in GM Trucks or at least it used to be.
Sounds like the bad module that had internal ground caused the vtg and other module to have issues perhaps?
Bud Your going to have to Figure out how too Clone Yourself, here real Soon..LOL..People driving 15 hours away to get you to fix there Vehicles.That just goes to show how GOOD You are at what your doing..Great Job Sir..
awesome!
Your think tool pros is working great. Did you have to pay for additional downloads?
Great as always ivan
I want to ask you what is the ista obd2 dongle ?
bmw oe scan tool
Every time I work on a bmw I have to by a new roll of paper for the think tool printer LOL
I am still on part 1 whith...the short to ground test on the communication wires ...
Great video. I would have used my load pro instead of dragging the power probe extension wire around but obviously you love your power probe 🙄. Load pro could have told you all of your checks from a couple of measurements. We all skin cars differently.
You need reliable battery power and ground for testing. Not sure how the LoadPro would be helpful here 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnosticsI guess I just don’t understand then !?My bad 🙄.
I have a mess it is and it’s not shift what where should you should I go to check