What's unique about this Taiwanese Sten?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- We’re so happy to be collaborating again with Forgotten Weapons, but before you go rushing off to them, here’s Jonathan with a close look at what might appear to be a very familiar weapon - as always - things are not quite as they seem.
Here's the link to the forgotten weapons video mentioned by Jonathan.
• Chinese 7.62mm Sten Gun
Here's another link to the very weapon Jonathan is talking in our collection.
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3:19 The first symbol: Bureau of Ordnance (兵工署)
3:19 The second symbol: 44 Arsenal (44 兵工廠)
4:35 National (國) Armed Forces (軍)
thanks buddy, I was wondering what those meant
"Sticky-uppy bit".
This proffessional technical term has now been added to my vocabulary and I don't think I'll be able to get rid of it.
Thanks, Jonathan. Now whenever a gun's disconnector appears in front of me I'll refer to it as a sticky-uppy bit.
It comes up a lot when I'm helping restore engines and the like when I see a bit I don't recognise 😆
@@MrMe345 I used to build offshore wind turbines and 'the sticky uppy bit' was often combined with the 'sticky outy bit' and the 'b**ge,ry bit under there' ,the complexities of these were normally solved with a hammer and brute force and ignorance
@@magumba1000 the good old fashioned fine adjustment hammer 😆
Does it also have the shoulder thing that goes up? 🤔😄
Just watched Forgotten Weapons video on the half sized Sten. Just can’t believe that this smaller one exists. Wow way to start the morning by seeing these two videos.
It had to be timed, i also just saw the video
If you paid attention at the beginning of the video, he mentions Ian’s video about the scale Sten.
@@yota821 It's amazing how many people DON'T pay attention these days; television and now smart phones have reduced our attention span to that of a sand flea...
@@s.marcus3669 It's F- all to do with technology...
How out of touch are you?
@@georgehh2574 No, it's very MUCH to do with technology. Maybe you aren't old enough to know about television being called the "idiot box" or the "electronic babysitter"; this in the 1950s when television was in it's infancy? How old are you, fourteen?
FYI, the two combine characters means 'National Military'.
👌🏻
Chiang Kai-Shek's Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) claims its militia the National Military and that the other militias in China either should surrender their command to the KMT or should be disbanded even though some of the other militias had fought in most of the major campaigns in the Sine-Japanese War that ended in 1945.
@@tzyijiang9884 Well, that was a very calm and gentle statement. You are a good person to be so reasonable.
Actually, by modern democratic ideals, NONE of the 1920s Chinese factions had any real legitimacy. None of them stood for election, they all ruled by force, and this has always been the case in China.
There has never been a free and fair election in Mainland China, one where the average citizen could vote.
So the fact that one or the other party claims to rule has always only meant "We have the biggest armed forces".
@@uncletiggermclaren7592 Obviously the faction with “the biggest armed forces” is the one with the most support of the people. You can always tell a restaurant is good because it’s packed, even if it doesn’t have a Yelp review. People always vote with their feet, and it is their choice that makes a government legit, no?
@@shuoh.4742 Nah, a better version of your comparison would be saying "You can always tell a restaurant is good because it’s the one with the largest staff". When your options are eat the overpriced spaghetti with shitballs on offer or risk losing what little you have and you and your family getting shot by a gangster with a Spanish knock off full auto broomhandle Mauser for trying to find better, 9 times out of 10 you're going to eat the shitty spaghetti.
MAYBE this SMG is my grandpa made :)
he was Taiwanese No.205 factory Worker, 50 years ago~
205 was 60 arsenal, not 44.
"Bursts will be reserved for extreme emergencies." I think I would call anytime someone is shooting at me an "extreme emergency."
Not to mention a human wave attack of commies...just say'n.
You need to re-watch the Danny McKnight scene from Blackhawk Down.
Lololol! Yup, I was thinking the exact same thing!!
@@ironwolfF1 Except that's how both sides fought, pal
@@GaiusCaligula234 That is false. The KMT was primarily German-trained, and the tactics they used reflect that. The soviet myth is the human wave attack, but they also drowned foes in massive artillery fire and a wave of t-34s in addition to having numerical superiority over German divisions. That is not myth when it comes to the PRC. That IS how they fight
I imagine the knurled knob was an off the shelf part. Possibly repurposed from another firearm or even something unrelated to firearms at all.
To me it looks like they pulled that knob off of a shelf… like literally it makes me think of the knob to pull open a wooden shelf!
國 = Nation/Country
軍 = Army/military
The symbol with circle and cross is the logo of 聯勤第四十四兵工廠
The symbol with sun and bow is the logo of 中華民國兵工
Thanks mate. Good luck.
Huh?
@@joe125ful The circle and cross is the logo the "Joint or unified 44th Arsenal". The second symbol is the manufacturing mark of the "ROC Ordnance Industry/Factory"
@@f12mnb Oh thx.
It's happy to see you introducing the gun from Taiwan aka Republic of China.
4:59 the 2 characters here "國軍" means "The National Army of ROC", which is still the national military force in Taiwan.
He called it Taiwanese - there goes the social score
Quick someone link a video to tiananmen square
What? you mean the government of china in exile in the province of taiwan?
@@aborted4196 which one? the parade for the 100 year of Glorious Communist Rule celebrations? xD
@William Tell about that I have a interesting story, few years back they issue Taiwanese Passport without Taiwan writing, just Republic of China, and since Taiwanese passport is green and Chinese passport is red, quite a few incident of custom thinking they have a fake passport, a green Chinese passport.
PRC(Communist China) calls it Taiwan, just say that its part of them. ROC(Taiwan) calls themselves China aswell
Blazers and AC/DC t-shirts.... Fergie is a sartorial maverick!
I'm surprised that someone was able to make a relative simple gun, even more simple.
That is not an easy task and needs a lot of experience.
The Chinese may be loathed by the West, but they have many, many benefits they enjoy.
One of which, a quality which I love, is the capacity to plan long-term.
Enter the Chinese, "Here, hold my machine tools."
@@GarioTheRock the chinese aren't hated its the scummy piece o shit government that needs to be purged from this earth, that is so hated
@@Bella_The_Chef Unfortunately, that's only by the more rational sorts.
One only needs to look at all the assaults towards diasphora :|
Forgotten Weapons has just done a video on one of these, shrunk down to maybe half (?) the size as a functioning factory proof. Surprised that that video and this have both been released in a single 24 hour window.
The Taiwanese were pretty clever with simplifying one of the most basic guns ever designed
My favourite sub, so simply, two or three shots at a time it was ment to be for a professional soldier. Limited ammunition is always a consideration.
"Sticky uppy bit" F1 fan confirmed
Yep, no doubt
I like the fact that he goes into how the differences are as much doctrinal as technical. Thank you, Jonathan.
3:40 It's a bow and arrow within a cogwheel, the insignia of Ordnance branch. Commonly weared by 91Fs and such. I never realized these insignias were in use even way back then, not until now.
Superb collaborative effort gentlemen,please continue to offer us mere mortals entertainment and education in equal measure ,Thank you both
The Sten was literally designed by reverse-engineering the German MP-28 and then taking off or simplifying everything deemed unnecessary or too expensive to manufacture. The fact that the Chinese Nationalists managed to make it even simpler and cruder is grimly impressive.
Unfortunately it was them struggling the most, not the commies.
The Americans actually made the crudest Sten variant of all--the so-called "Sputter Gun" was a Sten with no trigger group at all, which just dumped its magazine as soon as you released the charging handle. It was designed as a way to circumvent US gun laws, which at the time defined a machine gun as a weapon that fired multiple rounds per _trigger action_ . No trigger, no machine gun, therefore the Sputter Gun was completely legal for civilian ownership. None had been sold by the time the ATF told its designer to knock it off, and changed the relevant laws to close that loophole.
@@herschelschueler lol the nationalists weren’t any better than the communists. They were also lead by an authoritarian dictator.
@@fromthebackseat4865 They only murdered their people during the last third of last century, they produce the most pollution, they monitor everyone in public and in private areas and go by a social credit system, and now everything is made there so there's less jobs for everyone in every country. Sounds like nice people
@@finkamain1621 lol America does that same stuff.
Not an insult, these videos are perfect for naps. So peaceful, patient, and informative
I think an ideal Sten gun would be an Austen MkI with a M3 Grease gun style collapsible stock.
Or a Sterling.
The Austen is still to this day an amazing gun. So surprising really.
@@john-paulsilke893 I know. Seems to be the only Sten which ergonomics were designed to be used by acutal human beings :)
@@hendriktonisson2915 beautiful and horrible. That’s art baby!
Well done Jonathan. Another fascinating video.
I really enjoyed the comparison with the cut away Mk2 Sten.
It's the first time that I've seen the internal working of a Sten portrayed in real life, compared to the usual diagram presentation.
Normally Sten videos concentrate on the simplicity(!) of design/manufacture and speed of construction but you have added a new level to my appreciation of this emergency weapon.
i feel bad that ian didn't even said that you were making this video "together", it feels like he gave you the cold shoulder or something...
correction it's the trigger mechanism housing it's the dust cover you can fire a gun without dust cover as all the parts of the trigger mechanism are in their own housing - the dust cover prevents dirt , mud, rain and dust from getting into the mechanism
I'm a simple man, I see a sten I thumbs up
@William Tell Woo team work!
Always important to have clearance for your sticky-uppy bit. No-one wants their sticky-uppy bit to get jammed.
Ian: yeah so we have this really cool mini sten
Johnathon: *Laughs in Rule Britannia*
you call that mini??
I watched Ians first, was good to see this pop up after he talked this gun.
I think if you're on an island and facing the possibility of war with a large chunk of Asia, full auto and quicker to make is a no-brainer.
The original was built on an island that was already at war with a large chunk of Europe.
The students in Taiwan were taught to shoot, though not always or well.
@@Adrian-qk2fn Then they weren't worried so much about the cost.
@@fazole some students were forcibly conscripted at bayonet point after being told that they would be allowed to continue their studies on Taiwan.
Considering semi-auto economy of ammuntion would have been a bigger overall logistics savings than the extra cost of the features to incorporate said selector function must have meant that the tooling and design work put in up front was determined to be the best savings measure. And once developed, it was little savings to remove those steps and actually re-tool for a simpler geometry cover and so-on, especially one that wouldn't be able to repair previous models. So with the tooling and know-how of the STEN already established even in the most dire need of production, it seems the situation was never so dire that omitting those few extra features would have been worth the trouble as certainly ammunition must have also been a savings to contend with. Meanwhile in China where they had more need to create guns than to likely long-term supply the soldiers, and where they had to start new tooling and so-on from scratch, seems that the savings was seen as worthwhile at that point.
back in 1988, when i was 14, i worked for a company ], broad engineering, in south wales. as an apprentice engineer, my job was to machine new firing pins and rechamber for .22 blank cartridge and machine a gas release port, in the breech and rear of barrel to prevent live fire. 250 of these chinese copies were sent to us, by the bbc, for making safe. we also made mg42s for the bbc as well. by the time i was 18. i could and still can, make mg42s and mkiv sten, from scratch :)
"Sticky Uppy Bit" is my favorite bit of all
Lol, Ian from Forgotten Weapons was just talking about wanting to see this someday, didn't know about this colab
Hmmmm...I know from experience that the traditional 9x19mm STEN has a slow enough rate of fire to tap out 1 shot even on automatic.
But in 7.62x25mm I don't know about that. If the RPM were the same the select fire option would be redundant in trained hands.
Legit love that Ian has such a profound presence in the historical firearms community that the British Royal Armouries are excited to collaborate with him.
Heck yeah! It's always cool when game recognizes game.
They did work toghter already before ya know waht happend
The Armourers Bench love good obscure Sten too!
Sticky uppy bit! Finally we know what that part is called! I wonder if the cocking handle on the Taiwanese Sten began life for some other purpose (lamp switch, fancy end cap on a dresser, etc) and was just pressed into service for the Sten simply because a few 100,000 were are available?
You could also perhaps suggest a similarity to the magazine cutoff of earlier British rifles, the general impression I get is that they would ideally prefer an army where nobody ever had to shoot anything.
Jonathan and the Gun Jesus himself? Now we're talking :D
Seems really well made and also nice polish!
Yep those two markings you talked about a bit before 5:49 together mean "KMT troops" so it's likely a marking meant to denote that it belonged to the Nationalist Military.
I'm curious if there will be a video on the FN-MAG/ GPMG family of machine guns and what differences each country made :)
I second this suggestion!
🙂👍How about a follow-up of the bronze Sten bolts and why they were made 🙂? Quite a few bronze bolts ended to Finland after WW2 in used arms sales.
I didn't know they were a thing! Whatever, a casting [bronze] is easier and cheaper than machining steel.
Forgotten Weapons is the benchmark for information and delivery style on weapons.
Jonathan and gun Jesus doing a collab is awesome.
This is a collab I've always wanted.
-9,000,000 social credit you will be visited by jong xina
Taiwanese Sten was still used by the Taiwanese amphibious recon units on the outlying islands in early 1990s as the gun could be better concealed even if it is fired from prone position.
At first I thought that it was curious that the Lanchester Machine Carbine went from semi/automatic to automatic only but then I realised that the Royal Navy had, literally, a ship load of ammunition on hand. Not so much in a trench or on an aggressive defence patrol.
Formosa and Function -
No sticky-uppy bits will be tolerated!
OK, so we've got the 32ACP sten, the 7.65 sten, and the 9mm sten ..... what RUclips channel is going to step up and build the 50BMG sten?
Yeah that would explode faster than you could even pull the trigger. Anti Materiel rounds and direct blowback do not go well together.
@@fromthebackseat4865 Anti materiel rounds don't go well with pretty much anything.
The .22 Sten, .303 Sten, 5.56 Sten, 6.5 Caseless Sten, 12.6 Sten...
Automatic pipe for every ammunition! Let's go!
Hi Johnathan, was wondering if you could make a video on the Chauchat from WW1? One of my favourites and I’m fascinated by it, so would love to see a video on it!
Does a 16" naval gun have a 'sticky up bit' and if not why not. A light hearted approach sometimes is worth more than gold. I found your channel a few days ago - as our US friends would say 'Holy Sh*t' - I wonder if it is.
I love how you use terms everyone will understand like "that front sticky up bit of the trigger bar" haha
I would love to see you and Ian do a collaboration going over your favorite guns together.
Well they wrote a book together and have done quite a few collaborations if you haven’t seen them though none about their favorite guns
@@andrewstraub131 I did not know this, thank you for informing me! I’m still hoping for the favorites video nonetheless.
Royal Armouries and Forgotten Weapons. The dream team.
Watch out, China, they've got stens !
So they simplified the Sten even further, that's actually impressive
Ian, give Jonathan some love. I enjoy both of your guys vids. But Ian, you have a better social circle of influence.
Super cool vid! Keep on making em! I love your work.
I believe the pitting is from pre production when the sheet metal was piled in storage. The bellied stamping I think was a single stamp and was as fast to produce as a straight piece. They didn’t have the press mold. And the knob I bet they pre knurled the whole bar then used a stock single cut cutter for the knob. I bet it’s from a common item tractor or something.
this has some unintentional ASMR vibes to it
Economy of ammunition runs through British military thinking from our late adoption of automatic rifles to making the SLR single shot.
Who dont love a sten
meanwhile me being left handed dont like
@@TommiHonkonen cant please everyone 😀
I like having a proper grip
@@hungryhedgehog4201 yea not the mag , guaranteed to feed jam
@@manofkentcatapultsgunsando5069 I mean I dont consider a pipe with a metal triangle a proper grip either tbh
I wonder if Jonathan does any extra prep* before a "Special Friendship" collab with our Cousins ?
'Cause I swear he always seems extra-British in these.
* Like, Strong tea, Marmite on toast, and a bracing dash through the rain ?.
Thank you for making this happen!
Just came from Ians miniature sten video.
AC/DC and a STEN. The symmetry is perfect.
How very British… show up for work in an AC/DC T-shirt - got to make a video! Not to worry old chalk I’ll put on my dress jacket I keep on my office door for such an occasion. Still sporting the boots own hair gel mate!
There is at least one photo on the 'Net of a very late WW2 German Sten copy, the 'Potsdam Gerat' aka MP3008 - with a straight triangular housing like the Nationalist Chinese Sten copy.
The Ramones' "Hire my SMG with a full clip, on automatic it's a guaranteed hit." becomes "Hire my machine carbine with full clip, on repetition it is rather well received."
LETS GO
A "clip-loaded" SMG?
@@bruceinoz8002 Don't judge me, I'm not their song writer, just a fan.
I hadn't realised the original British Sten could be set for single shots. I thought it was semi auto or full auto.
As you may have noticed the Taiwanese Sten has a cut out to hold the bolt to the rear, when the bolt is rotated it just pushes the sear down as if I can remember the is no selector lever or safety catch.
Thanks. Great video.
I am pondering if we ever get in a jam in some future case, would something akin to sten or sterling, or similar - be a method as in the past, of getting a weapon, in number to a lot of people, quickly and cheaply. Or would another tool be chosen instead - around similar criteria...
When I see a video with a question posed in its title, posted by Royal Armouries, nothing else matters but the answer.
Ian and Jonathan both have equally fantastic hair.
litterally just saw the tiny video
The 44 Arsenal is close to my home but it is a park, now.
I would be interest in knowing how much it took to make one back in the day and how fast it would make with todays machines.
I think it could be modified to maybe 1000 rpm. But with the heat produced in this skeletal machine with an extended clip would not stop until it was empty.
Cost wise very cheap
The Mk2 was well optimised for the "non-gun" production capabilities of a 1940 UK filled with little machine shops. It was specifically designed around "jobbing out" batches of parts to factories and workshops that had in 1939 been making parts for cars, bikes, agricultural machinery, sewing machines, printing presses, that sort of thing -- buildings full of manual lathes, small vertical mills, punch presses and other relatively simple machine tools being run by operators who spent their lives repeating the same sorts of simple jobs with simple jigs and gauges. Modern production machinery would be faster due to things like faster stock removal rates and multi-axis machining centres combining several operations into one setup, but not I think by a huge margin because it would still need manual assembly of multiple small parts (68 on the Mk2 IIRC), which is tricky to automate.
The Mk3 was even faster/cheaper/nastier than the Mk2, as it was an adaptation of the tinplate toy pressing/stamping industry by Triang. With today's CADCAM it would be far faster to make the tooling needed for a Mk3 production line than it was in 1941.
The thing is, machining/manufacturing has advanced a very long way in 80 years. If you really wanted to make a lot of very simple and cheap SMGs you wouldn't start with a Sten and say "how can I make these on a Tormach" you would be using quite different methods, and so the design itself would be quite different. The bolt for instance would likely be metal injection moulded, with only crucial surfaces machined. It might run on a pair of guide rods or rails embedded in the receiver walls rather than ride directly on the internal walls of the receiver in order to reduce contact surface area and because you could buy pre-polished rail stock by the meter. The receiver would then only have to be a simple and lightweight injection moulded thermoplastic or stamped sheet metal. These are the sorts of ways in which modern large-scale arms manufacturers "value engineer" -- and also manufacturers of cordless drills, cars, coffee makers and laser printers. I'd be fascinated to see the way in which DeWalt or Vauxhall or Toshiba would go about things if told "make as many bullet hoses as you can, as cheaply as you can".
@@lordsummerisle87 very interesting, I shall have to read this again, it sounds you know you stuff. ✌🇬🇧
Seen videos on this but can't remember details but basically garage shops
@@demonprinces17 All British Sten guns were manufactured at Royal Ordnance Factories, Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, BSA or Line-Brothers, with many of the smaller components sub-contracted out to Engineering companies - they were never made in "gargage workshops" as some people think, however, many were made by resistance groups in occupied countries especially Denmark by small workshops.
That cocking handle looks like a cabinet draw knob
Now we need Ian to talk about sticky-uppy bits.
So the British keeping semi-automatic fire is also an economy measure, but economy of what we'd now call the weapon system, the gun and its ammunition. Given that most of the shots in a burst would be well off target, it's sensible, though I don't suppose, in the emergency circumstances, anybody did a serious comparative analysis of the relative impacts on saving on gun manufacture versus ammunition manufacture.
Do you suppose the French had it refinished after it was recovered from a cache in Vietnam? Chi-com weapons did turn up there and the French had a right hodge podge of weapons pressed into service at the time. It looks very much like their typical lacquer.
Ian mentions in passing in his video that he thinks it's unlikely since vietnam war is quite late and even there, a Sten gun would be unlikely to turn up.
@@tomfeng5645 Wrong Vietnam war old chap. Learn your history.
@@zoiders If you mean the First Indochina war (1946-1954), that predates the production of these guns, which were in the mid 1950s
@@tomfeng5645 This gun was produced by the Nationalists. In mainland China and later in Taiwan. Stens turned up in Korea as well.
Those are the *modified* Stens, not the original production Stens. This very video talked about that distinction. These guns were *also* too early to be in the Korean War, as mentioned in Ian's video (all of the Chinese Stens there were the modified ones), which also mentioned the production dates.
I truly love these videos but it would be really nice if you could upgrade the mic! It's not the best sound
John Cena needs to have a word with you
Hey Jonathan,
I was following your videos and work for quite some time now and found out some very interesting stuff about firearms. I've drawn and imagined guns and their working principles since I was in 7th grade and I'm still interested in new working principles, I am not farmilliar with yet. Now about 11years later, I am a digital artist and draw military art from time to time aswell.
All in all, your videos have been a great source of inspiration for my work.
Now to the question, I was pretty unsure to ask, because I thought people would laugh about it, but anyway.
Would it be possible to load a blank into a gun and have some kind of high pressure water injector in the barrel to build a high power water gun? I thought of the injector-method, because the gun would hydrolock and explode, if you fill the barrel to the brim with water beforehand, right?
Please don't ask, why I think about this stuff, sometimes my brain just gets these ideas. I would be really happy about an answer though.
Anyway have a nice day!
Even if Jonathan does not see your question... Water is not compressible in the same manner as cased lead ( or lead substitute ). Also a pressure valve should be more effective at "launching" a water burst. Not sure if you could use a blank round to propel loose water in a barrel.
Interesting concept, but I do not know enough about hydro dynamics or hydraulics to say much more of use. Good luck!
(:
There are or were "cleaning cartridges" that use the primer to propel some oil down the barrel. Explosively moving liquids tends to cause a fine mist spray rather than a jet, though.
I can actually think about a "water gun" that uses a similar principle. Rounds for Russian self-defence tool "UDAR" ("УДАР", "Device [for] Dosed Aerosol Spraying") are basically a hybrid between a syringe and a unitary gun round cartridge. There's some liquid in a cartridge, a nozzle in front of liquid, a plunger behind liquid, a primer behind the plunger, and as far as I know, no gun powder charge. The primer creates enough pressure to push the plunger ahead and spray liquid through the nozzle. I presume the plunger that achieves mechanical separation of liquid and propellant gas is a key to the success of this design.
Come to think of it...
There are some 12gauge water shotshells or similar I believe, used on remotely controlled bomb disposal devices. At point blank range, the high velocity blast of water disrupts and rips apart the explosive charge without setting it off. Very close range specialty munitions though.
something akin to a hybrid of an air rifle and a super soaker then ??? - the air rifle's compression chamber (made of a higher grade rust-less stainless steel) might sort of the mechanism your thinking of.
.albeit with a tubular nozzle in the barrel crown, and some weird steam-punkish valve mechanism for controlling the amount of water to fill chamber with......
Not to mention that these were also dropped to Resistance Fighters who would have had minimal training and ammunition. So a select fire Sten makes sense from that aspect as well.
Does the Royal Armouries have an example of an Owen gun? if so any chance of a video, Yes I have seen Ians videos but.....More :D
for those about to rock we salute you
I notice both of these appear to have the safety modification where the charging handle can be pushed in when the bolt is forward to lock it, when did that mod come into existence?
hey Jonathan, I am sorry that yoiu had to witness the cursed guns of COD Vanguard, and thank you for this wonderful presentation about unique features of this legendary gun model
i came here because of Ian from forgotten weapons because his video about the "Mini taiwanese STEN"
Excellent changes if you have enough ammunition to support the full auto only option. OR perhaps if your troops are very well trained or exceptionally terribly trained full auto only also works.
Some said John and Ian would never collaborate, glad to see them proven wrong.
Not many changes some marks and few less parts.
Can be interesting to see Swiss Sten if its exist:)
Awesome shirt, excellent taste in music
Wow it's a giant version of the sten ian reviewed!
My two favourite things, Stens and AC/DC
That charging handle should be most simple part but they totally over engineering that piece of metal.
Ian has a good video but Dugan Ashley has the absolute best Sten video ever.
LOL he 'fixed it' :')