How cool would it be to see the Forsaken before turning, rationale for turning (hinted at for some in the books, explained for all in the WoT White book), them swearing to the Dark Lord and how they twisted their skills to serve the shadow
I think my absolute favourite part of the books is the proto chess board Ishamael has set up in the dream world, with the Fisher King. The point was to get the Fisher King on a black square. Because of this, I would have ranked Semhirage higher. She came very close to achieving this.
I am surprised you didn't include padan fain in the list. I know he detached from the shadow and had his own agenda, but he was created by the dark one originally and then with the merging with mashadar he really bekäme strong.
Agreed, and later on his fighting ability goes up with the dagger and all that, and his influence over the white clokes, and he effectively tracks Mat, Perrin and Rand across most of the wetlands, or does he not count as he becomes something that is beyond the shadow?
Great video. Sorry for the wall of text to follow. You had a typo in Shaidar Haran (intelligence is 19). But I would not have included SH on the list. You premise is agents of the Shadow. SH is in essence the Dark One, which is the Shadow. By definition, the principal (the Dark One) cannot be an agent of itself. I think your ratings should have been waited differently. Each category is 25% of the total. I think you should have devised a formula with effectiveness being worth 50% of the total score. Grey Men are about only a decade older than Demantors. TGH was published in 1990. HP&tPoA was published in 1999. I thought there were only 6 gholam made, not 7 I disagree that Be'lal should come closer to number 1 than Aginor. IMO, Be'lal did not do anything effective during the events of the series. I would not have given credit to anything they did during the Age of Legends or events before TEofW began. As such, I would not ranked Ishamael as high as you did. My top 5 most effective: 1) Demandred; 2) Taim; 3) Graendal; 4) Mesaana; and 5) Sammael.
I would argue that Slayer had at least as much Authority as the myyrdral did. He was able to command troops and was an independent agent who Forsaken had to seek out when they wanted something important done.
I love you for pointing out that Demandred stood toe to toe with Mat as a general. You forget though that he also controlled Moghedien during the Last Battle, so everything she does with the Seanchan is by his direction. I am also glad you included his RoS accomplishments. 💘
I agree with most of your choices. I think the Gholam should be placed a few places higher. I noticed that Shaidar Haran and Ishamael had 19 in Intelligence. I don't know if you first put down a 9 and changed it to 10 (missing to change the 9 to a 0). Great list though.
Gholam severly under-ranked. Their fighting ability is a 10 and intelligence should be higher. One tracks the luckiest man alive across hundreds of miles with very little to go on. No man or channeler can defeat them
So many of these had the opportunity to kill Rand many times throughout the book. Given the plot armor effect, I recommend the max intelligence should be 5. (don't get me wrong, I love the books but that is one of the biggest issues with the series I have always had) PS- I am also a Graendal fanclub team member :p
Sammael is above Semirhage? Srsly? I would argue that Semirhage is way more effective than Sammael. Her almost breaking Rand's spirit was highly effective, Sammael does a whole lot of distracting stuff, but he never scores a blow that really cuts as deep as Semirhage does. And Semirhage destabilized an entire continent, Sammael just caused trouble in the Westlands. Also, Graendal scores a 9 in Intelligence? *Really?* amy-poehler-really.gif There is no way Moridin, Demandred or Shaidar Haran are smarter than Graendal. NO. WAY. Demandred should have an 8 Intelligence for his stupidity in showing up at the wrong Last Battle. "Come and face me Lews Therin!!!" What's the first thing they teach you in Evil Overlord School? _Know thine enemy._ Demmy was still calling Rand by his old name, and showed up many leagues distant from where Rand was. That's an epic blunder. As for Shaidar Haran, he thought making Graendal 'ugly' was a meaningful punishment for her, rather than using something like a cour'souvra. That's idiotic. And Ishamael is just a complete emo moron, he based his entire philosophy on information he was told by the Father Of Lies. That's pretty thick-headed. I mean, Father of Lies. It's right there in the name.
My biggest issue with Demandreds big appearance was that it was very a “ muahaha I am a bad guy” and that he repeatedly got into solo duels instead of directing the wider battle
@@stevenhernandeznon-profitf968 and he only managed to kill one out of the three dudes he dueled. With a sword. This guy can _channel,_ and he's dinking around with long knives. That's absurd.
@@Siansonea right?! And here is what bugged me about that as well Demandred was never build up to be such a badass swordsman like Belal or Sam. So was this a new thing for him? Who was he sparring with?!
@@neosharkey7401 no Forsaken should let a little thing like an amulet stop them. So they can't be targeted directly with weaves, eh? How weird that a Traveling gateway formed underneath them and dropped them into a volcano. AoE is a thing.
I don’t know about that one. All Moridin did in TLB was be used by Rand as a conduit for the True Power. That should knock him down a few spots. Shaidar Haran, on the other hand, set up Semirhage to capture Rand. This would have worked if she just dragged him away instead of taunting him. It is true that Shadar Haran only created the black nothingness in TLB that let Rand win. What I’m trying to say is that Shadar Haran at least tried.
@@NaeBlis if we only count what Ishy/Moridin did during TLB then I agree he might not be up there. But he literally spent thousands of years (on and off) pulling thousands of threads and tightening the Pattern so that events would eventually get the Dragon Reborn there to face the Dark One. Shaidar Haran did some stuff for a couple of years. The Black Ajah, The Trolloc Wars, False Dragons, Darkfriends, Artur Hawkwing and the Seanchan. All of that was influenced by Ishamael. He might've been mad but he did a LOT in the service of the Shadow.
Egwene didn't kill the dreadlords with the flame of tarvalon. SHe killed the sharan channelers. THe darkfriend ashaaman were still around after she killed the sharans.
I’m guessing maybe two of the Forsaken are on here at MOST. I think that Demandred and Lanfear were the only useful forsaken. The rest did like one thing with impact, and then died.
I kind of feel that adding (run of the mill) shadowspawn to the list was a bit of a cheat. "Agent" implies having, well, agency, and outside of Shaidar Haran, the shadowspawn doesn't really have agency or make meaningful choices.
Should have been a distinction between Worms and Jumara. If one of the Forsaken barely beats a Jumara, how does it make sense to have Myrddraal higher up on the list?
Did the pure Saidin at the Eye of the World have other unique properties? It made Aginor seem to grow and become more fully fleshed. What's up with that?
Not sure I would include Shaidar Haran on the list. He doesn't show up until close to the end, and doesn't do much but tell the forsaken to do their jobs or else. Then he completely falls out of the story as if an afterthought. Would be interesting if he were somehow still in the world after Tarmon Gai'don slowly building the shadow's return.
I was waiting to see where fain/moredeth would fall on the list... or was he not really classified as an agent of the shadow? Although his influence was somewhat limited... i dunno. Surprised not to see him.
Fain was a darkfriend in the beginning, but because they tortured him so much, when he became Mordeth he interfered with the shadow's plans on many occasions. He ended up hating the dark one almost as much as Rand, and became a target for darkfriends almost as wanted as the 3 boys.
@@tonykuriger573 They might give Bel’al a run for his money. Get introduced, have a short swordfight, start an evil monologue and then get interrupted and one shotted out of existence, all in a chapter or two. Then he’s the only one of the Forsaken killed in the first books that doesn’t get revived. Omega yikes
WoT hot take! They should eliminate the Gholam and give everything it does to Padan Fain/Mordeth. This will keep Fain involved in the second half of the series and potentially resolve his plot better than disappointing end in the Last Battle
@@NaeBlis (But I do appreciate your videos, btw.) For starters, I think you vastly underestimate the effectiveness of grey men. (Nearly inconceivable assassins, less effective than a trolloc?) And Draghkar are less effective than the 24 ones following them on the list? Actually, rather than going on, I guess it would be easier to point out the issue I have with your criteria... For example, half of the points you use to rank (e.g. authority and fighting ability) don't necessarily render certain tools of the Dark One less effective than tools that do have power and fighting ability. The same can be said about intelligence... And of course if you were to change those than the whole list would be rearranged. But I'm aware this is your options - and I appreciate the conversation!
But she just did a whole bunch of nothing after being captured by Nyneave. So 2 books of doing relatively important stuff and then like 9 of being completely irrelevant
@@Kurama363 Well, that doesn’t mean she was effective, she survived because she didn’t do shit, effective would be to both survive and help the Shadow in a considerable way. It’s the opposite with Moghedien, her shenanigans led to her capture by Nyneave and Elayne, which then led to them discovering a lot of things from the Age of Legends that had been forgotten. If anything, she should be near the bottom, she harmed the Shadow more than helped it
There were only SIX Gholam made. 3 male and 3 female in appearance, not Seven. Ishmael was not as powerful a channeller as Lew Therin, so not as powerful as Rand.
Shouldn't Elaida be on the list? While technically she wasn't "agent" of the shadow, her actions helped Shadow more than half of creatures on the list.
I’m a huge fan of your ranking systems and rankings Naeblis but come on... Shaidar Haran??? Seems that you weighted “how many people have to listen to this person” a bit too strongly. Doesn’t even belong in the same conversation as Demondred, Mordred, Graendal, or Masaana with regards to helping the dark lord win over the forces of the light. I would have had Mazrim Taim round out the top 5 with the other 4 foresaken shifted up one spot. No idea how Sammael gets higher than the Mhael. Also, why give group rankings for everyone but the foresaken? When there is huge variability as far as the effectiveness between individual black sisters and dark friends. Forgive my spelling I’m not going to bother looking them up for this RUclips comment.
Clearly Narg deserves a spot, it takes serious effort to be a NAMED Trolloc.
Narg the Trolloc Taveren 🤣
18:10 Demandred should have been number 2 just to piss him off. I haven't even seen who is number 2 yet :p
I'd want a more effective weapon than a puppy's face to kill a trolloc, tbh.
For the human darkfriends, to me the one that did as much damage as any was Daved Hanlon, also called Doilin Mellar
Top one should have been bela.... The true avatar of the dark one
Shaidar Haran's intelligence is off the charts!
Same with Ishy
Yes, both he and Ishamael had 19s!
How cool would it be to see the Forsaken before turning, rationale for turning (hinted at for some in the books, explained for all in the WoT White book), them swearing to the Dark Lord and how they twisted their skills to serve the shadow
I think my absolute favourite part of the books is the proto chess board Ishamael has set up in the dream world, with the Fisher King. The point was to get the Fisher King on a black square. Because of this, I would have ranked Semhirage higher. She came very close to achieving this.
I'm excited to see how the portray Shaidar Haran and myrddraal in general in the show. I hope they are as awesome as you outlined here.
I am surprised you didn't include padan fain in the list. I know he detached from the shadow and had his own agenda, but he was created by the dark one originally and then with the merging with mashadar he really bekäme strong.
I am never disappointed by your tier list videos! Or any of your videos, really. This channel is great. Thanks for all the quality WoT content!
What about Padan Fain? He's the one who first found Rand and the others in Emonds Field.
Agreed, and later on his fighting ability goes up with the dagger and all that, and his influence over the white clokes, and he effectively tracks Mat, Perrin and Rand across most of the wetlands, or does he not count as he becomes something that is beyond the shadow?
I think Padan Fain was not really an agent of the Shadow. He had his own thing going.
Great video. Sorry for the wall of text to follow.
You had a typo in Shaidar Haran (intelligence is 19). But I would not have included SH on the list. You premise is agents of the Shadow. SH is in essence the Dark One, which is the Shadow. By definition, the principal (the Dark One) cannot be an agent of itself.
I think your ratings should have been waited differently. Each category is 25% of the total. I think you should have devised a formula with effectiveness being worth 50% of the total score.
Grey Men are about only a decade older than Demantors. TGH was published in 1990. HP&tPoA was published in 1999.
I thought there were only 6 gholam made, not 7
I disagree that Be'lal should come closer to number 1 than Aginor. IMO, Be'lal did not do anything effective during the events of the series.
I would not have given credit to anything they did during the Age of Legends or events before TEofW began. As such, I would not ranked Ishamael as high as you did.
My top 5 most effective: 1) Demandred; 2) Taim; 3) Graendal; 4) Mesaana; and 5) Sammael.
I would argue that Slayer had at least as much Authority as the myyrdral did. He was able to command troops and was an independent agent who Forsaken had to seek out when they wanted something important done.
I love you for pointing out that Demandred stood toe to toe with Mat as a general. You forget though that he also controlled Moghedien during the Last Battle, so everything she does with the Seanchan is by his direction. I am also glad you included his RoS accomplishments. 💘
These are the types of videos I've been missing from you, my man! Bravo.
I agree with most of your choices. I think the Gholam should be placed a few places higher.
I noticed that Shaidar Haran and Ishamael had 19 in Intelligence. I don't know if you first put down a 9 and changed it to 10 (missing to change the 9 to a 0).
Great list though.
Can we please have a list of who lead the most charges in wheel of time and how often they actually managed to "sweep away the rabble of foot"
Gholam severly under-ranked. Their fighting ability is a 10 and intelligence should be higher. One tracks the luckiest man alive across hundreds of miles with very little to go on. No man or channeler can defeat them
So many of these had the opportunity to kill Rand many times throughout the book. Given the plot armor effect, I recommend the max intelligence should be 5. (don't get me wrong, I love the books but that is one of the biggest issues with the series I have always had)
PS- I am also a Graendal fanclub team member :p
I really am enjoying this video. Kudos for a fantastic topic !! Long live Naeblis ! 😊😉
Sammael is above Semirhage? Srsly? I would argue that Semirhage is way more effective than Sammael. Her almost breaking Rand's spirit was highly effective, Sammael does a whole lot of distracting stuff, but he never scores a blow that really cuts as deep as Semirhage does. And Semirhage destabilized an entire continent, Sammael just caused trouble in the Westlands.
Also, Graendal scores a 9 in Intelligence? *Really?* amy-poehler-really.gif
There is no way Moridin, Demandred or Shaidar Haran are smarter than Graendal. NO. WAY. Demandred should have an 8 Intelligence for his stupidity in showing up at the wrong Last Battle. "Come and face me Lews Therin!!!" What's the first thing they teach you in Evil Overlord School? _Know thine enemy._ Demmy was still calling Rand by his old name, and showed up many leagues distant from where Rand was. That's an epic blunder. As for Shaidar Haran, he thought making Graendal 'ugly' was a meaningful punishment for her, rather than using something like a cour'souvra. That's idiotic. And Ishamael is just a complete emo moron, he based his entire philosophy on information he was told by the Father Of Lies. That's pretty thick-headed. I mean, Father of Lies. It's right there in the name.
My biggest issue with Demandreds big appearance was that it was very a “ muahaha I am a bad guy” and that he repeatedly got into solo duels instead of directing the wider battle
@@stevenhernandeznon-profitf968 and he only managed to kill one out of the three dudes he dueled. With a sword. This guy can _channel,_ and he's dinking around with long knives. That's absurd.
@@Siansonea right?! And here is what bugged me about that as well Demandred was never build up to be such a badass swordsman like Belal or Sam. So was this a new thing for him? Who was he sparring with?!
@@Siansonea To be fair, to hose people did have Fox-Head Medallions.
@@neosharkey7401 no Forsaken should let a little thing like an amulet stop them. So they can't be targeted directly with weaves, eh? How weird that a Traveling gateway formed underneath them and dropped them into a volcano. AoE is a thing.
Belly rub? Who's a good Trolloc, who's a good Trolloc?!
Thanks for bringing the rubric back out!
Was expecting the Gholam to be much higher. Love the vid tho!
Great list! Only other name I would have included would be Padan Fain. He would be quite high on the list.
Shaidar Haran was an extremely interesting character
I'd switch Moridin and Shaidar Haran, but otherwise I think your list is spot-on.
Interesting. Why’s that?
I don’t know about that one. All Moridin did in TLB was be used by Rand as a conduit for the True Power. That should knock him down a few spots. Shaidar Haran, on the other hand, set up Semirhage to capture Rand. This would have worked if she just dragged him away instead of taunting him. It is true that Shadar Haran only created the black nothingness in TLB that let Rand win. What I’m trying to say is that Shadar Haran at least tried.
@@NaeBlis if we only count what Ishy/Moridin did during TLB then I agree he might not be up there. But he literally spent thousands of years (on and off) pulling thousands of threads and tightening the Pattern so that events would eventually get the Dragon Reborn there to face the Dark One. Shaidar Haran did some stuff for a couple of years. The Black Ajah, The Trolloc Wars, False Dragons, Darkfriends, Artur Hawkwing and the Seanchan. All of that was influenced by Ishamael. He might've been mad but he did a LOT in the service of the Shadow.
Agree with the Trollocs, thought the Trolloc Army at EF was to easily wiped out in the end
“....and they are kinda soulless.”
I appreciate this 😂
Graendal is formidable!
Well the Grey Men did some work during the Last Battle.
Egwene didn't kill the dreadlords with the flame of tarvalon. SHe killed the sharan channelers. THe darkfriend ashaaman were still around after she killed the sharans.
19:10 Ishamael has 19 intellect lol
It may have a puppy dog face but it's still a over six-foot monster wielding a weapon running towards me...
I'd give the top 2 to Graendal and Demandred, but still think your list is awesome. Keep it up =)
Narg almost kills Rand. Narg is the right hand of the Shadow. Narg smart.
Great list, maybe darkhounds could have made an appearance? But its a good list none the less.
They were there lol
#23 lol, im a stupid trolloc
I’m guessing maybe two of the Forsaken are on here at MOST. I think that Demandred and Lanfear were the only useful forsaken. The rest did like one thing with impact, and then died.
Taim was also pretty important
I kind of feel that adding (run of the mill) shadowspawn to the list was a bit of a cheat. "Agent" implies having, well, agency, and outside of Shaidar Haran, the shadowspawn doesn't really have agency or make meaningful choices.
Should have been a distinction between Worms and Jumara. If one of the Forsaken barely beats a Jumara, how does it make sense to have Myrddraal higher up on the list?
Did the pure Saidin at the Eye of the World have other unique properties? It made Aginor seem to grow and become more fully fleshed. What's up with that?
What about Padan Fain? Was he not listed because he was something else than an agent of the shadow? I mean he kind of was and wasn't at the same time.
Not sure I would include Shaidar Haran on the list. He doesn't show up until close to the end, and doesn't do much but tell the forsaken to do their jobs or else. Then he completely falls out of the story as if an afterthought.
Would be interesting if he were somehow still in the world after Tarmon Gai'don slowly building the shadow's return.
I was waiting to see where fain/moredeth would fall on the list... or was he not really classified as an agent of the shadow? Although his influence was somewhat limited... i dunno. Surprised not to see him.
Fain was a darkfriend in the beginning, but because they tortured him so much, when he became Mordeth he interfered with the shadow's plans on many occasions. He ended up hating the dark one almost as much as Rand, and became a target for darkfriends almost as wanted as the 3 boys.
How are jumara above anything n the list? they didnt do anything in the entire series. How is that effective at all
They chased the EF party for a few minutes. Turning point of the series, for sure.
@@tonykuriger573 They might give Bel’al a run for his money. Get introduced, have a short swordfight, start an evil monologue and then get interrupted and one shotted out of existence, all in a chapter or two. Then he’s the only one of the Forsaken killed in the first books that doesn’t get revived. Omega yikes
Aginor was drawing from the eye to keep Rand from drawing on it!
You forgot Gawyn
I'd have to put Semirhage first. She almost broke Rand, and as we know that was the Great Lord's goal. Breaking him, not killing him.
Ummmm did Ishamael really have a Intelligence of 19? @19:00
Slayer could have been used so much more effectively...which probably could be said for a lot of the list. Where does Manfear fall on this list?
Manfear is #1 obv
Haha Manfear is the Alpha++ tier agent.
Everyone knows that Paitr Conel was the most effective agent of the shadow!
**spoiler**
nr 1 for Demandred just for killing gawyn
Omegalul.
When will you be doing your next Nae'blis reviews?
Would the ways have been restored when Saidin was cleansed?
Great question
Daddy... why is my puppy seven feet tall?
Solid list, only thing missing is the Gholam.
The gholam was like number 18.
@@natebrown4689 Oh did I not hear it? I was driving as I listened. And for some weird reason my short term memory isn't what it used to be.
It's also missing the grey men.
@@wpelfeta they are #27
WoT hot take! They should eliminate the Gholam and give everything it does to Padan Fain/Mordeth. This will keep Fain involved in the second half of the series and potentially resolve his plot better than disappointing end in the Last Battle
You must correct the last two from 19 Intelligence to 9
Wow, I disagree with SO MUCH about your ranking I don't even know where to start! 😆
Let’s hear it
@@NaeBlis (But I do appreciate your videos, btw.)
For starters, I think you vastly underestimate the effectiveness of grey men. (Nearly inconceivable assassins, less effective than a trolloc?) And Draghkar are less effective than the 24 ones following them on the list?
Actually, rather than going on, I guess it would be easier to point out the issue I have with your criteria... For example, half of the points you use to rank (e.g. authority and fighting ability) don't necessarily render certain tools of the Dark One less effective than tools that do have power and fighting ability. The same can be said about intelligence... And of course if you were to change those than the whole list would be rearranged.
But I'm aware this is your options - and I appreciate the conversation!
Fighting words!
Shaidar Haran.......10+10+19+10=40?
Padan Fain?
Moghedien should objectively be #1, she outlasted all the other forsaken while being the least powerful of them all.
But she just did a whole bunch of nothing after being captured by Nyneave. So 2 books of doing relatively important stuff and then like 9 of being completely irrelevant
@@4LegCrotch And despite all that she still outlasted everyone else.
@@Kurama363 Well, that doesn’t mean she was effective, she survived because she didn’t do shit, effective would be to both survive and help the Shadow in a considerable way. It’s the opposite with Moghedien, her shenanigans led to her capture by Nyneave and Elayne, which then led to them discovering a lot of things from the Age of Legends that had been forgotten. If anything, she should be near the bottom, she harmed the Shadow more than helped it
@@4LegCrotch Then lets agree to disagree, because to me she will always be #1
There were only SIX Gholam made. 3 male and 3 female in appearance, not Seven.
Ishmael was not as powerful a channeller as Lew Therin, so not as powerful as Rand.
It wasn't the dark asha'man that nearly defeated Rand at the last battle, it was men and woman working together in a full circle.
Seems legit.
Shouldn't Elaida be on the list? While technically she wasn't "agent" of the shadow, her actions helped Shadow more than half of creatures on the list.
I’m a huge fan of your ranking systems and rankings Naeblis but come on... Shaidar Haran??? Seems that you weighted “how many people have to listen to this person” a bit too strongly. Doesn’t even belong in the same conversation as Demondred, Mordred, Graendal, or Masaana with regards to helping the dark lord win over the forces of the light. I would have had Mazrim Taim round out the top 5 with the other 4 foresaken shifted up one spot. No idea how Sammael gets higher than the Mhael.
Also, why give group rankings for everyone but the foresaken? When there is huge variability as far as the effectiveness between individual black sisters and dark friends.
Forgive my spelling I’m not going to bother looking them up for this RUclips comment.
How about Joe Biden?
not a good list !!!