Talking About Writing: The Black Company & Cannery Row with Steven Erikson
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- Опубликовано: 22 янв 2023
- Discussing the opening paragraphs of The Black Company by Glen Cook and Cannery Row by John Steinbeck with Steven Erikson (Malazan Book of the Fallen).
Steven Erikson and I discuss some aspects of how both these books start, focusing on the writing and the effects the writing creates, as well as our usual rambling off on tangents about writing in general.
Intro and Music by Professor Trip.
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Excellent video! I enjoyed the discussion of these openings very much. When Mr. Erikson mentioned the first person narration in The Black Company avoiding use of the singular ("I"), I thought of Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily" (probably because I'm teaching it today), where the narrator uses only "we" and never "I," making the narrator a representation of the townspeople as a collective entity, including all of their prejudices and quirks. My thanks to you both for all these enjoyable insights!
I am glad that soon to be famous authors such as yourself can enjoy these discussions. Thanks, Philip.
I started Black Company while lifeguarding this passed summer, after Brandon Sandy roped me into reading again; Glen Cooked up some of the most quick hitting and fun fantasy I've read in years. Raven is literally me.
Malazan is masterful I have a torrented 10 books in 1. And my kobo shows 1/8400 pages so I do it by percent, and I just crossed 1% into 2% and the 1% of Malazan (5% of Gardens of Moon) have me convinced Anomander Rex is the coolest guy of all time
This was a great video to listen to! What I love the most is the breakdown of the texts.
Regarding the Cannery Row text, I can't believe that there are people who would complain about the use of commas. He is obviously not trying to ennumerate stuff for the purpose of description. He is grouping things based on a certain logic, aiming for a certain psychological effect and a certain emotional reaction. There is more to it than painting a visual image. Anybody who has done a little bit of reading can tell that without need for academic studies. Or at least they should. I can't believe that there are people who would criticize it as wrong, or a breaking of the rules! And in the end, what is life if we don't break a few rules?
Well this is perfect timing for me! I just finished the first Black Company trilogy last week!
Great timing. What did you think of the books?
@@ACriticalDragon Loved them, particular the 2nd: "Shadows Linger". I plan on reading all the books for sure. I even read an interview with Cook where he said his best writing advice is to just get started and write. So I ended up finishing my first proper short story because of that.
I fell asleep the other night listening to this and dreamt that you guys were sitting on my couch. Just wanted to let you know.
This was beyond wonderful. I always learn a lot from these videos, and now I really want to read Cannery Row.
Friend recommendations are great, but A.P. recommendations are even better! Your bookshelves are a great place to find new books to read, I've found. I hope you don't mind the bookshelf stalking. :)
I am glad that you continue to enjoy these conversations I have with Erikson. We genuinely have a lot of fun talking about this aspect of writing. So it is great that other people like it too.
Wow that excerpt of The Black Company was so much fun. I should read Cook's series straight away.
One thing I noticed is that the opening sentences of Cannery Row are almost biblical in style. I don't know the technical term, but the way they're set up to almost mirror one another is fascinating.
A poem- Gathered and scattered
A stink- tin and iron and rust and splintered wood
A grating noise-chipped pavements and weedy lots and junk heaps
A quality of light-sardine canneries of corrugated iron
A tone-honky tonks
A habit-restaurants and whore houses
A nostalgia-little crowded groceries
A dream-laboratories and flophouses.
There certainly isnt a 1 to 1 ratio or connection, but the last three comparisons do kinda run together.
We also see a similar pairing of four with
Whores-saints
Pimps-angels
Gamblers-martyrs
Sons of bitches-holymen
In biblical texts these types of pairings are usually intentional. I dunno if its quite the same here, but really struck me. The first two sentences are also a great example of having more figurative/tonal elements but then grounding them in the setting/world. In my writing i like to dive off the deep end, so this reminder/example to tie them to tangible elements could be very helpful.
Illuminating conversation!
I love these! Thank you.
You are so welcome, thank you for watching.
It's really interesting to listen to. It makes you think about construction of novel 🙋
That Cannery Row passage is pretty immense, gotta say.
I reread the Chronicles of the Black Company, the first 3, after finishing Aspect Emperor. I needed something lighter...and funnier.
I forgot how good they were. Goblin and One-Eye hit the spot. I am glad to see his resurgence on RUclips. Perhaps looking for a post Malazan fix. It is obvious why Reaper's Gale was dedicated to Cook.
His overall writing style, compared to more recent authors, might come off as choppy and lacking detail. Which unfortunately doesn't jive with some modern readers who almost demand 800 page books.
But Cook says what he wants to say and calls it good. I call it very good and am looking forward to continuing my reread.
Cook's approach is certainly different, then again it is radically different again in his Garrett PI series.
@@ACriticalDragon Have not read those. Am trying to get Allen to read Instrumentalities as they are flintlock-ish. But didnlike Dread Empire.
I'm a big fan of the aspect emperor series too, it has amazing world building.
Another excellent video, well-timed from my perspective.
The Black Company is on my list to read this spring.
I hope that you enjoy it. There are some moments from the series that I still remember now as being just brilliant.
Ooooh looking forward to Grendel now! What a fantastic book! Also loved this, two wonderful styles on display.
I might even have to ask Philip along given his interest in Beowulf.
I have just started reading the black company, as I have finished all the malazan books with the exception of the necromancer novellas. I will get round to reading them eventually.
Thanks for the videos.
You are very welcome, I hope that you enjoy the books.
One thing that struck me regarding the use of "we" instead of "I" in the opening of the Black Company, is that "we" includes the reader, while "I" excludes him/her. This isn't stated outright, but the use of "we" place the narrator together with the reader, "we are going to experience this". If you use the word "I" you are distancing yourself from all others and excluding them to be spectators instead of participants.
But then I'm Swedish and might have lost something when I read it.
I'm always excited to see Mr. Erikson on here; it guarantees I'm going to learn something.
I love the comparison of Cook and Steinbeck, especially given how they are using similar techniques to achieve an effect in these excerpts. I also love the implicit point that fantasy literature is literature, given that that seems to be in debate. This sort of thing really helps demonstrate that the ghettoization of fantasy is just prejudice.
Erikson and I have been talking about various aspects of storytelling for years, so I am really pleased that people are enjoying these discussions. Thanks for watching.
thanks for the chat, gents!
You are very welcome, thanks for watching.
This is a fantastic discussion. More please. I really like how you discuss the language use like word choice and punctuation.
Very nice discussion! Hit all the right buttons for me and it's always a pleasure to see Mr. Erikson on here. I love putting on my thinking cap and listening to these master classes in the making. My goal is always continual learning to be a better reader and critic and these videos help me progress, so thank you!... Jarrod C.
You are very welcome. I am glad that these discussions still have something interesting and new for you.
This was great. I am very much looking forward to your discussion of Grendel!
Thank you very much, I am glad that you enjoyed it.
I will have to find an e-copy of the start of Grendel first though.
The conversation on the first two lines was really interesting. Even when I do randomly stand in a bookstore, I’m more likely to pick a random page in the middle to read some and get a sense of the prose and tone. That, in conjunction with the genre and basic plot I can get from the blurb, is how I make my decision. The first two lines as a way of making a decision is bizarre and I’m not sure anyone actually does it.
"hello Clarice.."
Nice!
You do know that 20/20 is a per-eye measurement, right? It means you see at 20 feet what others see at 20 feet. If the second number is higher than 20, your vision is worse than average; lower is better. One eye could be 20/20, the other could be 20/40. Or 20/10.
TIL that 6/6 is the 'metric' version of 20/20.
-Scott the annoying pedant.
Yeah, but that doesn't work as a joke.