Robert E Howard as Fantasy Noir with Ian C Esslemont
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Not to be out done by his fellow Malazan author, Steven Erikson, I have a chat with Ian C. Esslemont about Robert E. Howard as a 'pulp' author who drew on the Noir tradition to inform his writing.
The fantasy genre, like all forms of narrative, draws inspiration from many different places, and often our perspective of the codification of the modern genre blinds us to how the easier slippage there was during the 'pulp' era.
Ian C. Esslemont helps educate me on aspects of the pulp tradition that I am far weaker on, and we discuss the various aspects of Howard's writing that inform the modern genre.
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Intro and Music by Professor Trip.
Wonderful discussion! I agree with the notion that modern fantasy is often a blend of the "two branches" of fantasy (high fantasy and sword and sorcery). Also, I've been arguing that "grimdark" is existentialism in fantasy, and since grimdark probably owes a lot to Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, the notion of Conan being an existentialist makes great sense to me. Certainly the time period is right. Thanks for the excellent video!
One of my favourite writers of fantasy.
I'm so happy to see a new discussion with Cam. He's brilliant and I hope to see him on screen more often 🤗
Cheers and see you in the next one!
Having recently read the Conan story's by Howard what stood out for me was the character of Conan was a strategist and was very cunning. You also see that he was a strong leader that was respected by his people. It's almost like some of the damsel in distress elements could have been added to justify the cover art.
Great discussion. Always amazed to find people who are aware of the DeCamp controversy with the editing of Conan stories.
Yes Conan creates his own destiny. Always thought of him a good version of the free thinking man. I don’t think he rejects the gods, or his god, Crom. Not relying on help from his god is kind of bred into him. I think it’s Queen of the Black Coast, he says Crom breaths life into a man and gives him everything he needs to survive. Power and strength to kill your enemies. What he does with those gifts is up to him or her. Don’t pray for help. Crom’s will send doom your way rather than assistance.
Excellent discussion! The essay referenced toward the end, "Conan the Existential" by Charles Hoffman, appears in a excellent collection of critical essays on Howard called "The Barbarian Triumph" edited by Don Herron.
This was so cool! It's good to see Howard's work brought more into the modern day discussions of fantasy literature origins. I think Conan was Howard's ideal to strive for as far as the image of the self made man could be idealized. It's not something anyone could actually live up to and so may have fed his depression. If he lived, I wonder what kind of influence the advent of Tolkien's style of fantasy would have had on any later works he would have created. The speculation could be endless, of course.
My favorite portrait of Conan is one where he is bent low over a pool lifting water to his lips, and the reflection is of a savage ape on the verge of attack. To me that encapsulates Conan's masculinity, that of a beast, an educated one but a beast nonetheless. I don't consider his to be a toxic masculinity but rather other, born from something more primitive and quite understandable and acceptable for who he is.
As a woman I also do appreciate the women in Howard's stories who not only have Conan's and his other heroes' respect, because of their skills at fighting and ruling and outwitting most of the men alive. I love Robert E. Howard's writing and those writers like Leiber who followed that tradition.
My favorite podcast is back
Yes esslemont and the dragon! Nice something to listen to while doing a long drive! Cheers! I really wanna see you, chase, erikson and esslemont do a discussion on the second apocalypse series. It may be hated or adored but never ignored! And get bakker to talk with ye! You would shake the foundations of booktube! Thnx for great content as always!
Bakker has been pretty silent for years now. It would be awesome to see a discussion, but I doubt he will be present.
@@kingplunger6033 aye that might be true. And a mighty shame that be. But I would not underestimate the powers of the creatures mentioned above. Be there anyone capable of drawing the mind behind the consult from his lair, it be them. Arrr
I personally believe you cannot say toxic masculinity with the context of the dystopian fantasy world of post Atlantis. Barbarism was at an all time high. There was slavery and wars and famine and ancient magicians sacrificing people. Conan had to adapt, he was born on the battlefield. He is the epitome of masculinity. He rose from the literal ashes of his people, to become king Conan. The entire ethos of Howard’s work is that civilization will always fall back into barbarism. Like the fall of rome and the dark ages that followed.
And America follows ever quickly..
There's been a shift to the term "idealized masculinity" since it carries no value judgement and instead just invites us to look critically at the ideal. I know it's just the euphemism treadmill at work, but it's a good term. Your framing is perfect for Conan, and good for looking at power in the setting in general. Sorcerous power is a very different flavour in the universe, with very negative connotations most of the time. The libertarian take AP presents is interesting here too!
I never realized Robert E. Howard wasn't talked about as much as Tolkin by most fantasy people. In the TableTop RPG World he's mentioned a LOT as inspoation for DnD and other table top settings so I figured "Oh he's a corner stone for fantasy if you want to learn the history of the building of it as he's famous in the fantasy world..." It's intresting that people don't think of Howard it seems. Yes Tolkin did inspire DnD as well and Lord Dunsey I came to just discover was one of the grandfathers of fantasy (though I also seemed to find out he also inspired Lovecraft apparently?) as he's referenced a lot as well in the Appendix N. Dungon Craw Classics actually focuses a lot more to these older works that isn't as popular as Tolkin so I really thought it was just a well known fact that these were inspos of the modern fantasy.....
For example the only real reference that Dungeons and Dragons and Dungeon Crawl Classes does (along with others) does of Tolkin is "the Halfling" which they renamed to that since they couldn't get away with calling them 'Hobbits" due to the Tolkin estate for very long (though they tried). Everything else? DCC has whole settings based on the Dying Earth, Empire of the East, and Lankhmar. Meanwhile DCC Proper focuses more on Conan like settings with heavy refrences to Lord Dunsey (There's a game Moduel called "The Queen of Elfland's Son" and there's a Patron called "the King of Elfland"). DnD, while today is focusing a bit more like "High Fantasy" today, a lot of the roots in Conan is still being havily influenced. Especually within the dungon crawling aspect and people references Gyax's Appendix N a lot in the world of DnD.
But to hear now that people don't know these aurthors outside of Tolkin as much as I thought has me more apperciative that I read "Phenoix and the Sword" by Robert E Howard a lot more. I absolutely enjoyed it and it got me back into reading again which I hadn't done for a while. It also got me into reading Dunsey and I do plan on Reading Dying Earth and Empire of the East eventually. I do also plan reading more Robert E Howard *because* it's been helping me get out of a writing rut as I'm seeing where a lot of the "tropes" come from actually and how they were used origonally.
I’ve officially watched all of your videos. 🕯️🔥
Another thing to think about is access. My reading journey started in school. I had access to Tolkien at school. I didn't have Howard. I had memories of the Conan films so that influenced me. It would be interesting to know how much those films influenced people's reading choices. Or even recent authors in the stories they write.
There's a huge gap in the timeline of age specific fantasy. AP touched upon it. Dungeons and Dragons the TV series. He Man. Thundercats. They were probably hitting most of us before we even hit a library. Highlander FFS? Red Sonya. Beast master!
I see REH and I click. I think responding against Tolkien is a little misleading since Howard died before The Hobbit was ever published. This is timely as March 1923 was the first issue of Weird Tales, so happy centenary.
Howard is generally considered in line with some of Dunsany’s writing, (some would say his “The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth” is the first S&S story) while Tolkien would definitely be more inline with Morris. Interestingly, both Howard and Tolkien were influenced by Haggard. I personally don’t know of noir influence on Howard, though westerns and adventure stories from the likes of Harold Lamb I think are well attested as influences. You guys nail many aspects of S&S and the heroes of that genre.
Coming from you that is high praise indeed.
The fantasy urtext was surely Christopher Ward's Gentleman Into Goose. Being the Exact and True Account of Mr. Timothy Teapot Gent., of Puddleditch, in Dorset. that was changed to a great Grey Gander.
❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥
Also i dont get a Kiev joke lul