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Gardens of the Moon Discussion Part 1 (spoiler free)
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- Опубликовано: 22 дек 2020
- In part one (spoiler free) of our discussion of Gardens of the Moon, A.P. Canavan and I talk about narrative structure, themes, world building, and other facets of the book that begins one of the greatest fantasy series of all time, The Malazan Book of the Fallen. Part two (with spoilers) will be coming out soon!
The spoiler free introduction to our ten month video series on The Malazan Book of the Fallen: • Malazan chat with A.P....
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This is wild. I went from intimidated, to nervous excitement, to not wanting to wait until January 1st.
Thanks, Mike! The read along on your channel is going to be one of the highlights of the year for me, and if A.P. and I can generate some excitement for it, I will consider our mission accomplished.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy fantastic talk guys, thanks!
Philip, i really enjoyed your deadhouse talk with MikeBR... cant wait to finish Memories of Ice and checking out APs chat with Mike too!
@@odiums_taint Thank you! I’m really looking forward to that discussion with Mike and A.P.!
I also liked the point about the reading experience and immersion. I’ve said these books are for people who want to live the story rather than be told a story, if that makes any sense. That’s like my layman’s interpretation of what AP was saying there. Thanks again!
That's a beautiful way to put, Iskar! I'm going quote you in the future. "These books are for people who want to live the story rather than be told a story" -- brilliant!
Before finding Gardens last year, I would have never imagined reading fantasy. I had no idea fantasy could be written like. By the time I was half way through Gardens, I was so impressed that had decided to buy the entire series including Esslemont's books. I have finished the entire series and it's now my favourite all time series/books.
That’s fantastic! My journey has been a bit different. I’ve been a fantasy fan since reading Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings when I was 12 or 13. By the time I read The Malazan Book of the Fallen, I was fairly well read in the genre, but the series challenged my notions of what fantasy should and could be. It’s almost like rediscovering fantasy, and I love it. Thanks for watching and commenting!
“... in compassion there is freedom from despair” - nicely said!
Thank you! I appreciate the kind words!
this will be a great year for malazan fans, tyvm for inviting us on this journey.
Indeed! 2021 will be the year of Malazan on RUclips! Thank you so much for watching!
I didn't find Gardens of the Moon difficult to get in to at all, but then i came from reading Umberto Eco's work which is notoriously hard to get in to. Reading his books taught me to trust the autor. I was sold on Malazan as soon as we entered Darujistan trough Kruppe's dream.
That's a quirky and fascinating moment, and it's hard to find another character as enigmatic as Kruppe with his dreams. Kruppe allows Erikson to step back from the narrative and make some provocative observations, and I simply enjoy his personality as well. It's really great fun, and since you found it to be so, perhaps that's one reason why GotM wasn't "difficult" for you. Great to hear from you, as always!
Kruppe is my favorite character! He's absolutely a trip. I'm reading Deadhouse gates right now and I'm just bored so far and miss Kruppe 😂
This is a great video and I loved his advice for new readers. I absolutely love this series (obviously), and while I think the books aren’t for everyone, I agree with AP that the major issue people have with the books is very much one of expectations. We are programmed to look for the main character and the central conflict. That’s why I had to go back and reread the whole series almost immediately after I realized what it was about and what I missed out on by mining for that. That’s also why it keeps getting better every time you read it is because you can sit back and appreciate all of those different and, in some cases, competing perspectives on this collected set of events. Great interview!
Thank you for your content too, Iskar! I've already watched several of your starter videos and will continue to as I read along with Gardens of the Moon.
It sounds like we had nearly identical experiences with our first reads of the series, Iskar. You perfectly described one of the things that tripped me up for the first five books or so -- looking for "the hero" -- and now realize how much I missed because of that and because I kept flipping to the maps and the character lists to try to "master" the story. So great to hear from you, my friend!
This is so minor but has anyone told you Philip that the way you hold your books with two hands by the edges so carefully shows how much care and respect you have towards them? Small gesture but it's so reflective of your whole style as a booktuber to me. They call it "teinei" in Japanese.
In other news, starting this book tonight finally!! Looking forward to all your discussions as a companion while I read.
Ha ha! Thank you, Danny. In Hinduism, books are considered sacred as sources of knowledge -- perhaps I picked up some of the deep reverence for books while living in Nepal. I love this comment!
This is most excellent news!!!
The advice for new readers was a game changer for me. I own a german first edition since 2000 and tried countless times to get into the book, without much success. After watching this video I had no problem whatsoever finally finishing it. I even couldn't understand why I ever struggled with the book in the first place.
After more than 20 years my journey finally started! Thank you both for this great discussion.
Thank you so much for letting us know! It’s deeply gratifying to think that our discussion has been helpful to you. I wish you much joy in your reading, and I hope that engaging with Malazan will continue to be fulfilling to you!
There are few things I enjoy more than listening to you two talk about Malazan. Thanks, guys.
I’m very happy that you enjoy our Malazan discussions! We just recorded one today on Forge of the High Mage.
The difference between you guys and some of the younger booktubers is hard to overemphasize. No hate, but holy shit, this is another level.
I’m glad you find the discussions useful! A.P. and I both love exploring fantasy literature, and Malazan is a series that inspires a lot of exploration.
Wow! This is a strong contender as most worthwhile video of 2020 for me. I have read GOTM 3 times in the last 20 years and never had a problem with its structure or characterisations. The re-reads have been as refreshes before setting off on that great MBOTF venture.
Your diversions into LeGuin and Christmas shopping were relevant and showed the opposing ends of the dynamic Erikson writes into the human (or whatever race) condition of his players.
Being relatively new to Booktubing, I have never encountered AP Canavan before. I had to shake my head at times as I thought I was listening to my son! (I'm guessing that like me, AP heralds from Northern Ireland).
Your combined thoughts are enough to inspire to to read GOTM again! Thank you both so much.
You are exactly right -- A.P. is indeed from Northern Ireland. One of the many reasons I enjoy talking with him is to listen to his accent. Thanks so much for the kind words about the discussion. I feel very privileged to be able to sit with A.P. and benefit from his wisdom on all things Malazan and fantasy. My very best to you!
I'm liking these discussions you're having with Mr. Canavan. I like how he brought up Malazans themes of compassion and empathy and how they are important in this day in age of Covid. I think I first truly realized that compassion was one of the themes of the series towards the end of Memories of Ice when a certain character died during a certain battle(not going give names, but if you've read the book, I think you'll know who and what I'm talking about). Although, retrospectively, I can kind of see what happens throughout the main plot of Deadhouse Gates containing compassion as well.
Absolutely, yes! Erikson weaved compassion into all of the books, and the examples you mentioned are excellent. I’m glad you’re enjoying my chats with A.P. I certainly am too!
I just started this book. I'm currently 100 pages in and absolutely loving it. I could just binge this book but I have to work, unfortunately. I have not felt as immersed in a world in a very long time.
Something as little as "she had red mud on her boots" communicates so much...
Or "we could call in so-and-so" "well, there's birds everywhere" "well, that makes things difficult". It's like...so much intrigue, hints at information, little things to store away for future reference.
I'm so glad you are enjoying it so far!
Fantastic video Philip. Please do more of these. I just recently retired and found your channel. I find the scholarly analysis you bring to the table particularly valuable. Would it be possible for you to do a video of your backstory and also discuss some of the books/stories that you teach to your students? I’m new to fantasy. I am starting Gardens of the Moon this month and am also reading The First Law Trilogy and The Dark Tower series. I look forward to your monthly analysis of the Malazan series and will be reading along with you. Thank you again for all you do.
Congratulations on retirement! I have some slightly older videos where I discuss a bit of my background. One is the small BookTuber tag, and another is the question/answer video right afterwards. I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion of Gardens of the Moon. It’s a lot of fun to talk to A.P., and I also had a blast chatting with him and Steven Erikson. I hope you’ll enjoy Malazan as much as I am, and I look forward to hearing any comments you feel inspired to leave!
Just finished book 1 of GOTM and I am so excited! I haven’t felt like this since I started Stormlight Archive. I love how immersive this story is! I was so intimidated at first to start Malazan after hearing that it’s “too much” but I am just so thrilled to be able to read this series and have people to talk about it with!!!
I’m delighted to hear you’re enjoying GotM so far! Malazan is a series that I have grown to love more and more with each book, and now that I’m rereading it, I can’t believe how amazing it is. Happy reading!
I love the fact that AP is covering the same thing I've been trying to convey to new readers in r/malazan, with respect to the mindset when reading the series and what precisely we mean with "Malazan is complex". But he articulates it masterfully. It's great.
=)
Great minds think alike! It's a joy to talk to A.P., who is obviously so well versed in everything Malazan and fantasy in general. And you're both right about a helpful mindset when approaching Malazan.
Loved being a fly on the wall to this great conversation. Thank you for creating these videos exploring one of my favourite fantasy series. My preference is soft magic systems where the mystery of magic is a central aspect. Can’t wait for your next instalment! Thanks 🙏.
Thank you, Francois! The spoiler filled part of our discussion will be coming out tomorrow, and then we'll be talking Deadhouse Gates in a month or so.
Thank you for this wonderful discussion. I was thrilled to hear you bring up "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas". I found your comments to be a valuable extension and exploration of the themes of Malazan Book of the Fallen, and the freedom inherent in compassion.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion, Toby. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Loved your impressions and the comparison with Ursula!
My pleasure, Franz! I’m so glad you enjoyed our conversation, and I hope to hear from you about our future chats if you feel inspired to comment.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy That is exactly what I am doing! :)
Brilliant discussion Philip and AP! I want to read that Le Guin short story now. I think every character is either living with, or attempting to avoid despair. But they're all behaving or taking action based on what they know, what they think they know, or whatever beliefs their backgrounds have instilled in them. Until some of them butt against that within themselves through their actions (and occasionally their thoughts). The Bridgeburners, Tattersail, Lorn, Paran, Sorry/Apsalar I think hit that. And I'm sure I'll see more of it as I continue on with the series.
Onto the spoiler talk.
Cheers!
C.
Thanks, Carlos! Le Guin’s “The Ones That Walk Away From Omelas” is brilliant and not very long. I think you would take a lot from it. Cheers!
I'm now six books in (Bonehunters) and GotM now feels like a very compact Overture or Prelude to an immense drama. I liked it then, and I already know I'll like it even more on re-read.
[I just read about a character walking a causeway (veterans will know what I am referring to), which made me realize all over again why fantasy can be so great and can pull off effects 'realistic' fiction cannot avail itself of.]
I definitely loved Gardens of the Moon even more the second time, and I’m so glad you’re enjoying the series! Fantasy is so wonderful in its ability to present situations that cannot happen in realistic fiction. Not only does it open the imagination, but it also allows us to wrestle with life struggles from the distance that an imaginative setting can create.
Fantastic video, as usual! Thank you! :) I am finishing my first reread of the series these days. I must admit, the first read of GotM had a difficult beginning. It was confusing, but I learned to just go along with it and see where the paths lead. I began reading these books because a friend whose literary taste I admire and respect recommended them to me. She told me to not give up, as these books are her favorites. The reread though... gods below, GotM was fantastic on the first reread. So much beauty, so many details I missed the first time. So cinematic, so action packed, with so much depth... I love it more after this reread, and I am certain that the following rereads will bring out even more beauty in this book. In all of them actually :)
You are perfectly describing my experience so far, except that I didn’t have the friend and so was wandering blind on my own the first time. Other than that, I felt like I could have written your comment as I was reading it! This time, I’m fortunate to have A.P. to discuss the books with. I’m so looking forward to rereading the rest of the series!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy oh you are too kind, Philip! Thank you! I imagine it is more difficult to to through these books alone. I was lucky to have my friend, and now I have my boyfriend who has read the books more than 10 times, so there is always someone to ask questions to and to guide me or elinghten me :) I am happy you now have AP for the reread, I think it will be something extraordinary. I can't wait to see the coming discussions between you and AP they are extremely enjoyable. I SO MUCH wish to see you talking to SE. You are so humble and selfless, and your videos are about the books, not about your ego, and you provide such educated insight and analysis. I am always in awe when I watch your vids :)
@@RoxanaMagdaD Thank you so much for the kind words! There’s actually a fairly good chance that I’ll have the opportunity to have a discussion with Steven Erikson, which would be amazing. I’ll definitely let everyone know if it happens!!!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy looking forward to that! :)
Re-read the prologue yesterday and it hits differently after finishing the Book of the Fallen.
It sure does! It's really amazing how much is foreshadowed from the beginning.
Wow, this was a brilliant conversation with deep insights. Thank you for doing this!
Thanks so much! It was fun to be part of it, and I'm glad that fans of the series seem to be enjoying A.P.'s insights.
So excited to dive into your GOTM discussions. Looking like I'll finish today and I've been blown away so far. The only thing I'd wish for is more intimate characterisation, but coming into the end Erikson does seem to be leaning into that a little more.
I just love how the plot is so multi layered and each chapter peels back a new layer.
Also there seem to be a few hints as to the ongoing plot that DG picks up on which excites me. Definitely keen to see what's going on in the south👀
I’m so glad you’re undertaking this journey, Matt! The cast of characters is enormous, but as the series progresses, you might find yourself connecting more and more with them. Best wishes!
@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy you guys and petrik are the real cheerleaders! I think reading Janny before helped ease me in as well. Thanks Philip!
I LOVE watching you guys talk about this despite AUDIBLY exclaiming at the screen more than once "What? Where is that?" or "I completely disagree!" 😛😛😛
Ha ha! I wish I could hear you saying all those things, Allen. As it is, I have a heartwarming smile just thinking about you voicing your disagreement. But we’ll have a chance for that discussion later!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy yes!! I'm very excited!
This was such a great analysis, you definitely got me into the idea of reading both Malazan and something by Le Guin!
Thank you very much :)
Thank you! I wish you the best with your reading!
Love these deeper and more in depth discussions.
Thanks! These discussions are my favorite thing by far to do on BookTube, so I’m happy that people enjoy them.
Great discussion! I'm on House of Chains first read right now and this type of content makes me want to make sure I make it to the Crippled God in a timely manner so that I can keep up.
Thank you! It was a lot of fun to talk Malazan with A.P., and I'm glad you found it helpful. I'm sure you'll stay ahead of us!
Great discussion!! So excited to start this series!!
Thank you! I hope you'll love The Malazan Book of the Fallen!
Wonderful discussion. I can't wait for my copy to arrive. 😊
Thank you! I'm glad we could help to increase the anticipation, and I hope you'll love it!
Every time you read it, it just gets better and better!
That is definitely my experience on my first reread!
I love this man
I'm so hyped
Will be starting from Jan 1st
I hope you’ll love it!
Philip, congratulations on 3K! 🎉🎉🎉 Well-deserved! I love your insights and the care you put into each one of your videos.
At risk of sounding a little sentimental or silly (which I am), I was moved by this discussion. Although it was mentioned that the series is not about victors vs. villains, choosing compassion over nihilism is a courageous choice. I loved the Christmas shopping example because that opportunity presents itself in some of the most seemingly mundane, human moments (not saying anything about Malazan is mundane). I really appreciate that shift in perspective for a fantasy series.
Although I completely understand the desire to read fantasy as escapism, I love how any kind of literature can invoke empathy and inspire a shift in how we see reality. In that vein, I'm starting to notice myself feeling a little uncomfortable when I hear characters described as "good guys" or "bad guys." I can understand how some characters are more realized or more fleshed out than others. Characters can have different motivations, and I do find myself caring about some characters more than others. I even find some characters incredibly annoying at times. I get concerned though-even if just for myself-that labeling characters in simplistic "good" or "bad" terms reflects or encourages a tendency to see real people that way. As mentioned in this discussion, I think the movement away from such polarities and revealing unreliable perspectives is something to appreciate in Erikson's writing.
Beautifully said, Johanna! I completely agree that "choosing compassion over nihilism" is courageous, and you're also right that these choices mostly happen during the most mundane moments. Also, I share your feelings about becoming more wary of good guy/bad guy dichotomies. That is indeed one of the most fantastic things about the story that Erikson delivers -- his authenticity to human complexity and the human experience is something I deeply admire, and I do think it's rare to encounter such talent in that regard. It's wonderful to read your thoughts here!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you! This was such a fabulous discussion. Happy Holidays!
@@Johanna_reads Happy holidays to you too!
PHILIP! I'M DOING IT! I have finally made the plunge and I'm 20‰ of the way in Gardens of the Moon... And I am absolutely IN. This discussion was super helpful, thank you! I have definitely been intimidated about starting this series and this discussion highlighted the reason for me: I seek security by following the one or a few protagonists in a linear-ish hero's journey. Knowing I'm not going to get this going into Malazan prepared my frame of mind. This read is out of my comfort zone, but certainly not out of my ability to understand and be immersed in the story which I'm relieved about! It's realistic, gritty, epic, and it's waking my brain out of its slumber. I'm loving it.
I’m so glad to hear this, Sun! I wish you the very best, of course, as you read Malazan. I’ll be talking to Johanna today about her Malazan experience so far, with the video coming out tomorrow. She’s halfway through the series, and I know she’d be an awesome resource for you too as well as supportive. I wish I had had friends reading Malazan the first time I read it, but at least I know about BookTube now! Anyway, it’s an excellent series for stretching your imagination.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Amazing! I'll be tuning in for the discussion tomorrow for sure. Thanks, Philip.
Thank you so much for this great discussion! I really enjoyed it, and learned a lot. Can't wait to listen to further discussions on the rest of the books in the series. As a side note, I would reccommend reading Sam Harris' very short book about free will, "Free will". He's even more depressing than Dawkins on this subject.
Ha ha! Since I seem to like depressing books, I’ll probably check out Harris’ Free Will. I’ve read a couple books (for laypersons) by neuroscientists about the brain, and they don’t leave much hope for free will either. Well, whether or not there was any free will involved, I’m glad you enjoyed our discussion!
Just! wow, this is worth every second
Thanks so much for watching!
I am halfway through Gardens of the Moon hence me starting off with this great spoiler free discussion. It has been a little tough for me, A.P. Canavan explaining it expertly as dense with information. however, I have been enjoying it thus far.
The standout for me is each character's individuality. As you discussed, each character has their own history and motivation. It makes the interactions feel so real.
*Minor Spoiler (I guess)*
And lastly, with the High Mage, having ONE LINE that just made me pause and empathize for him and realize he may not have wanted this either. It's brilliant.
I’m glad you’re liking it so far! The brilliance continues, and Erikson does have a way of making you rethink characters. I hope you’ll enjoy the journey!
Thoroughly interesting discussion on GotM - I look forward to similar for the remainder of the re-read.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to the discussions too!
Great job gentlemen! Although I will push back just a little in the fact that I do believe other fantasy (at least that I’ve read) does allow for characters to have discussions on how they view one another. An example you gave is Wheel of Time which is very traditional fantasy compared to Malazan, but I would argue that the characters often have their own agendas, agency, worldviews and perspective just like in Malazan (perhaps Malazan take it farther, idk, havent read past Gardens of the Moon.)
I can’t quite recall the context of what we were discussing in the video, but I agree with you that we see characters with various perspectives in plenty of other fantasy stories. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy thanks for the reply! You guys make me very excited to try more Malazan
Philip & AP thank you for this! I’m 250 pages into GotM and am absolutely enthralled by what I’ve read so far. My only problem is I don’t have enough time to keep reading it!
I'm so glad to hear that you're enjoying it so far, Tyler! I hope you'll find time -- it's definitely a commitment. Happy reading!
Great discussion!!
Thank you, and thanks for watching!
A great way to set the table on the reread. I am eagerly looking forward to the spoiler talk to drop. Great discussion.
Thanks! I appreciate the kind words. I’ll drop the spoiler half of the talk on Saturday morning at 8:00 on the East Coast of the United States, which is five hours behind GMT.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Looking forward to it. Dr. Ap is a great conversationalist. Looking forward to to your discourse.
@@sethulakovic3722 He is indeed!
“The audience requires not information but drama.” - David Mamet.
Robert McKee says something similar like an audience’s attention is held not by providing information but by withholding it.
Smart fellow, David Mamet!
I feel like this isn't just an issue with fantasy or storytelling but can go deeper. People believe that they need to be doing more in life than there are to make it worth while, few people are willing to accept their lives as little people who as an individual barely impact history and can become mentally ill when they realise they aren't. This comes from how we tell stories about history and fiction as hero's or great people and we all fall for it, as it is easy to get trapped in this myth that life is about stamping your name in history and not becoming a nobody. When really we have little control over our destiny and shouldn't view life as such.
You make an excellent point. Is it healthy to be delusional about one’s importance, to seek confirmation that one is somehow chosen and special beyond all others? That is certainly something worth pondering, but it seems to me that Erikson’s eloquent answer comes in ten volumes. Thanks for the insightful comment!
Love where this is going. So spot on. People read GotM looking for the Ring, who is Frodo, who is Sauron, where is he, etc. and they just aren't there.
To use gaming terms, lots of one offs but where is the campaign? How can you have the Final Battle if you don't know who the hero or even who the bad guy is?
If anything, the struggle between compassion and cruelty is constant much like real life.
Regarding the magic, I play Rolemaster so the warrens made perfect sense interpreting them as realms.
Regarding the dual points of view, there are numerous duos who have interactions and often take opposing sides. In the end, neither is usually 'right' or 'wrong' but the discussion is the important thing.
It is the depth and nuances of the characters that bring them to life as they are more real (I am growing to abhor 'morally grey') and are more personally identifiable than some absolute archetype.
In a lot of fantasy you can pidgeon hole a character in a paragraph and some authors might stop developing the character once he painted Hero in his/her forehead for you. With the exception of a few walking plot devices, you just don't get that in BotF because you don't know the part each one will play in the grand scheme of things.
Well said, Eric! Your comment captures the complexity of Erikson’s characters, and I can’t help but agree with you about their authenticity, especially in comparison to the uncritically repeated tropes we often see. Glad you got something from this!
Excellent discussion. The nature of narrative storytelling requires that each story have a main character. It’s possible, of course, to interweave many stories. But I’m not sure it’s possible to abandon that structure entirely, because the reader will impose it, and if the reader cannot, most will likely abandon the work. I just started rereading, and it struck me that Erikson has already used two art metaphors in connection with Paran (the first likely ‘hero’). First, he enters Laseens chambers by stepping on a mosaic- a ochre of something composed of discreet elements. Soon after, at home, he is recognized by his resemblance to his portrait in a tapestry - art made of discreet threads. And then we meet (or hear about) two other crucial threads: Tavore and Felesin. I have no idea whether this was conscious or not, but it’s certainly there, and I’ve noticed that Erikson likes to take opportunity’s to comment on the nature of what he’s doing.
Great insight there on the art! I’d say you’re onto something, especially given the weight that Erikson puts on art in The Kharkanas Trilogy so far. Like literature, art is an imposition of order onto our experience of life, a way of giving life a form we can wrestle with. And that goes back to the first part of your comment, where you correctly assert that some patterns are necessary for the reader’s recognition and investment. Fantastic comments- thank you!
This was just great! Promises to be a wonderful series of discussions.
I mistakenly thought it would start in January so didn't pose questions yet, but maybe you'll talk about my main one in the spoiler part. Otherwise it'll keep 😉
Talking about the label of 'difficult' this book often gets - I think you're right, it is incorrect or at least incomplete. But it is understandable, especially in our age of memes and bite-sized reactions. Because there clearly is complexity here. The fact that you can talk in very general terms for half an hour or more without spoiling anything speaks to that.
The part about expectations of the reader - about the type of story, the type of entertainment - is also very true. And helping new readers step into this world with the right expectations is one of the most important thing we can do as veterans. Dare I say with compassion and empathy 😜
Compassion and selfishness are present in all of us, and we need both to live and survive both as individuals and as a species. Compassion to me is something like a bubble we extend around us, including some things and excluding others. To things outside that bubble we are mostly selfish, sometimes even merciless.
Both the size of the bubble and the amount of goodwill we have available to those within it varies widely - from person to person, but also over time.
Despair is something of an ultimate expression of selfishness - which doesn't make it _wrong_ necessarily - so it certainly can be alleviated by compassion, either being it or receiving.
Beautifully said, Rob! I think you’re onto something when you link compassion with identification, or empathy. We tend to empathize more easily with those we consider as part of our in group. We need to feel a sense of connection sometimes to allow compassion to happen. The key, then, might be to modify what we consider our in group. From tribe to kingdom to nation to all of humanity to all of life, there are various levels of in groups. If we’re tribal, then we are less likely to be compassionate towards people and creatures we consider outsiders. This is something that is part of our evolution, I think. Anyway, the spoiler part of our discussion will be out tomorrow. Feel free to post questions if you have any in the comments of this video or the spoiler one, and I can read them to A.P. when we talk Deadhouse Gates in late January. It’s great to hear from you, and happy holidays!!!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
Happy holidays Philip!
You're right, we are tribal by nature. The tribe you belong to was originally just that, your tribe. These days many things can be considered our tribe, and we can choose which one(s) we belong to.
Part of the difficulty in seeing everyone/everything as our tribe lies in two mental blockades we all have. Historically just as much a part of our evolution. The first is the need to compartmentalize everything in order to understand them. The second is to be wary of things we don't understand.
Much more can be said there..
A second problem is misunderstanding or disagreeing about the definition of compassion itself.
And that's where the Malazan books come in again, because it is part and parcel to what it shows. Erikson shows us compassionate characters, and those who think they are or are not. He shows characters we feel conflicted about empathizing with. He shows some of the nuts and bolts in this sprawling scenery, which is still just a moment in time.
@@robpaul7544 I completely agree! Compartmentalizing and labeling can be useful in making sense of the world, but these strategies also end up denying complexity and tend to promote dualism: in group/out group, good/evil, chaos/order, etc. One of the brilliant things about Malazan is that it insists on complexity, refusing the easy categories and instead introducing nuance and uncertainty. By the way, there’s a very good chance I’ll have the opportunity to chat with Steven Erikson soon!!! If it happens as I hope, I’ll make an announcement.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
Oooh that is exciting news! Hope that pans out 😄
It's great to see Erikson engaging so much with responses and interviews on booktube.
I definitely started thinking of Mark Fisher and Capitalist Realism when you were talking about empires and systems of exploitation. Kindness is an act of rebellion is another phrase I've heard in some punk communities that, at least on a base level, evokes a similar feeling to compassion offering freedom from despair.
Great connection! “Kindness is an act of rebellion” definitely relates. I haven’t read Mark Fisher, but Capitalist Realism sounds intriguing. Thanks for the comment!
A brilliant book! 🤙🏾
Three truer words were never left in a comment section!
All this talk is making me want to add Malazan to my Sword & Sorcery November reading
It would go nicely, I’m sure!
Gardens of the Moon was just plain awesome. So many interesting characters and story moments. So many mysteries and unanswered questions. Just the book I needed right now. Can't wait to continue on to the Deadhouse Gates.
As A.P. said keep an open mind and you are in for a journey.
I’m happy to hear you enjoyed Gardens of the Moon so much! Deadhouse Gates was the book that first signaled to me that this series was unlike anything else. Happy reading!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyI'm just starting Act III "Chain of Dogs" in Deadhouse tonight and I'm so BORED compared to GotM. The entire Seven Cities plot is so dull 😂 I think Mappo/Icarium are interesting, and the carry over characters I care about them, but everyone else...sigh. The pacing is so much slower and the plot is about 1/100th as intriguing as GoTM 😅
Spoiler warning: ⚠️⚠️
I should note that GoTM blew me away. All the gods and magic, cool rooftop battles, epic mage battles, flying castle, dragons, demon puppet, demon dogs, possessed assassin, hilarious fat guy who talks to gods in his dreams, spirit transfer into a corpse and then rebirthed, political intrigue, flying monkey.
Here's Deadhouse cast:
A girl who tries to have sex with everyone and a handless priest
A historian who walks around following a warlord
Mysterious ancient dudes (actually interesting but little screentime pretty slow)
Fiddler & co. (Barely any screentime)
Plot so far:
There's a rebellion....the slaves escape and get trapped on a boat in an unknown warren...there's a hurricane...some characters looking for a portal to Malaz city
Overall just so much more dull then the beautiful chaos that is GoTM. BUT I'm only halfway through so...here's to an AMAZING MINDBLOWING SECOND HALF!
I hope it picks up for you! A lot of fans feel like the end of Deadhouse Gates is one of the peak moments of the series. @@moresoysauce5489
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy so I've heard! So I'm super curious to see HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!? Hahaha thanks for the video!
Reading Gardens of the Moon felt much more like a science fiction novel than a fantasy one to me. Maybe because most of my scifi reading has been in the "new wave" era where authors focused on social issues/themes and exploring different perspectives. I felt like I was in the fantasy version of Le Guin's Hanish Cycle 😄
Ha, and then you mention a story from le Guin! How perfect!
@@KFoxtheGreat Yes, Erikson ignores genre boundaries, often doing in fantasy what you might expect in science fiction or even other genres, like literary fiction. That’s something I love about his writing. And you can never go wrong with a Le Guin reference!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Absolutely! I love having my expectations shredded and burned when it comes to fitting things in boxes
How you doing today Philip so I think I'm finally going to do it man I've had the first three books of this series on my Shelf for awhile I'm holding Gardens of the Moon in my hand now watching reviews trying to make my decision I have two books that I'm thinking about Gardens of the Moon or red sister by Mark Lawrence I just don't know what to do another awesome video by you and the critical dragon RUclips breakdown books well
Thank you, Johnathan! Whatever you decide, I wish you the best for the read!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy yeah thanks man I'm very sporadic when it comes to books I can't make a TBR list and stay on that list I didn't start reading either one of those LOL I went on and started The Righteous by David Wragg which is what I should have done from the get-go because I just finished book 1 thanks for all your reviews man love your content
I'm on the second book and I think there's some times too much going on. Like the story can get a bit cluttered if that makes sense. Head scratching details that feel like such a strange choice. I don't necessarily dislike it but it pulls me out of the story and grinds my gears.
It takes some adjusting to settle into the Malazan world, for sure - at least, it did for me. So, yes, what you’re saying makes sense. Best wishes for the rest!
I first read GOTM I hated it and stopped. For some reason I picked it back up years later and finished it. I like that it’s 10 books to get lost in. There has not been a fantasy that I have got lost in like this in a long time
I've never found the same level of immersion anywhere else, and I think if I were to reread the series again and again for the rest of my life, I would find new things every time.
Alright I might be late to this video but I am going to start Malazan now that I have realistic expectations this was a very insightful episode
It’s never too late to watch a Malazan video! I’m glad our discussion was helpful, and I wish you much fulfillment in your Malazan read!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy this was one of the few helpful discussions because most my friends were just like “figure it out stupid” and I would just leave disappointed lol
@@ranchalthor3526 “Figure it out” isn’t very helpful. The good thing for Malazan readers today is that there’s a lot of great Malazan content on RUclips now. Best wishes!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yes youtube is my main resource for everything now school, movies, book this thing can really cause you to put yourself in a rabbit hole
@@ranchalthor3526 For sure!
hey very insightful video, i wanted to know if you recommend having a reading guide/companion to explain things a bit or taking notes or just reading the series?
Thanks, Olivier! AP and I set up our videos so that the non-spoiler video on my channel for each is something you can watch before reading the book, and the spoiler videos (Gardens of the Moon is on my channel, but the rest are on AP’s channel, A Critical Dragon) are for after you read each book. We also both have discussions with Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont. So, you could use our videos that way if you find them helpful. As for taking notes while reading, I personally find that it gets in the way of my enjoyment, so I tend to collect my thoughts only when I finish a book and then go back to look for specific passages. I hope you enjoy the series!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy very nice thank you ill do that
I’m 5 hours in and I thought I was missing something. I’m a huge Feist and Tolkien lover, so it’s definitely weird. I’ll keep going. One of the thing I don’t like about the book is the complicated names. So, it seems very hard to follow.
Fantasy names can definitely be hard to remember - one of the perils of our genre, I suppose. Of course, there are the easier ones, like Pug, but they seem to be the exception. Speaking as a diehard Tolkien fan who has become an equally devoted Malazan fan, I hope Malazan will click for you, Louis. It’s definitely a long term investment, but it has rewarded me more richly than I can express. All the best!
Read this one on a trip to Belize this time last year. (Glad I got a vacation in before the pandemic) I really liked the first half, although the second half kinda turned into an Avengers movie with some of the action sequences involving the super powerful. I do think it does a good job of laying the groundwork for many of the characters and storylines that will be peppered throughout the rest of the series. Going forward, will the "spoiler" videos just focus on spoilers for the individual books being discussed, or the series as a whole? I'm only 4 books deep so far.
The spoilers will only be for the book we are discussing, not future books in the series. Also, the spoiler talk on Gardens of the Moon will come out this Saturday. Our discussion of Deadhouse Gates will come out in late January. My family squeaked in a little vacation before the pandemic hit too, in our case to Universal Studios in Florida. My younger daughter had been dying to see all the Harry Potter stuff there. Belize sounds amazing! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Belize was a blast, especially since my Spanish is no bueno. I too would like to see the Harry Potter park someday. Hope you and your family have a good holiday and thanks for the reply as always. I look forward to the future videos.
@@nw82534 Thanks, Nick! The very best of holidays to you and yours too!
People find it difficult due to the amount of characters dumped onto you. Figuring who to to latch onto. And when you first figure it out, you are then sent to Book 2, with new characters. That is what is hard. The writing is not. In other words, just sorting out the characters, remembering them and who and what they are. Takes time. That's all.
I think that’s an accurate observation. That was my experience the first time reading the series. On the second read, I found both the immersion and the identification with characters much easier, and I’ve been blown away by the experience.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I am reading it now, and it took till book 3 for me to grok who is who and who matters and what they are in the story. I am now, finally, enjoying it after 4 false starts.
@@skippen I hope you’ll continue to enjoy it!
Hmm, interesting. I agree that Erikson works a lot with empathy. But I think there is more to empathy than I discovered in Gardens of the Moon. There is that 'If I were in the characters situation' kind of empathy which I found plenty in GotM. But what I missed is the 'If I were that character' kind of empathy. People are different. Even given the same background and situation, different people would behave different. In GotM all characters felt like only one character (one mindset archetyp) to me, there were just different situations and different historical backround to them. This might not be a fact it is just my subjective impression.
Another issue I had: Some dialogues where I needed several pages to discover who is talking to whom made it really hard for me to just follow along.
I've heard that about the dialogue before from several perceptive readers, so you're probably right. In fact, I think even A.P. might have mentioned it in our previous discussion. It's a characteristic of some authors, for sure, and it might be in part the tendency to avoid hand-holding the reader. Perhaps too much avoidance of hand-holding in this case? I think Erikson as well has commented on having a bit of regret about not helping the reader a bit more in GotM. Great to hear your thoughts!
@Philip Chase Erikson does this a lot in the last three books - at least that was when I first really noticed it. I just got into the habit of looking ahead to see who was talking.
@@Canoe64 It doesn’t bother me too much. Often you can tell by the speaker’s “voice” who is talking. It’s a tendency you see in minimalist writers sometimes, like Raymond Carver or, to use a famous example, Ernest Hemingway.
What was that book you references in this video? It sounds interesting. I think my only complaint about book 1 is that info dumps can be overwhelming/poorly timed. I rarely felt that way with later books. The pacing feels off in this book compared to others as well.
Do you mean the short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula Le Guin? It's a provocative story, for sure. I enjoyed the pacing in Gardens of the Moon myself, but I've definitely heard that observation before. Thanks for watching, Richard!
This is not a bad book in fact its a great book, i feel like some fans complain about this book going as far as to put it on the "worst" list but i feel the fase base at times demands too much these days. Its structured differently than other fantasy books but its not complex/difficult its a stronge first book that starts of with tatter sail in a tower walking down to help investigate a strange massarce...
Agreed! I don't rate Gardens of the Moon any lower than the rest of the series. In fact, during this reread, I found myself admiring some of the very things that some people complain about, such as starting in the middle of things. It's a beginning that pushed me straight into the story, and I didn't want to leave!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy absolutely!
Defiantly not a fan of Gardens not because it was hard to understand but because I felt the writing was rough compared to the rest of the books that come after. It Seems like most people love this book because the rest of the series is great and i don't think that is fair. Also its the authors job to draw readers in and as a first book to a great series it doesn't do a good job at that and to many people it has the opposite affect. Just thought I would throw a no popular opinion out. Thanks for the vid!
Great to hear your thoughts, Tyrell! Though I have a different experience of Gardens of the Moon, I’ve actually heard the view you express made by many fans and perceptive readers. I believe even Erikson has expressed that Gardens of the Moon was a learning experience in some respects. So, you’re in good company. Thanks for the comment!
When's the 3k Sub Party?
Unless I am reading it wrong:
Philip Chase
3.07K subscribers
Nice :D
You read it right! I’ve got something in mind to celebrate. It’s a nice way to finish the year. Thanks, Tyler!
Hey, Tyler. I can’t leave comments on your videos because comments are turned off, but I wanted you to know that I enjoyed your videos on bottlenecks and SSDs. I always thought little fairies lived inside computers, and that it was their job to magically remember everything, so I appreciate the education!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I recently stalled on my uplaod schedule because of schoolwork, but because it is winter break and now my work is under control I should be uploading more than twice weekly.
Bring on the spoilers!!
The spoiler part just dropped - thanks for watching!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Bring on more spoilers!! Jk great videos I'm loving this.
@@joshuagibbons8821 Ha ha! There will be more spoilers when we cover Deadhouse Gates in about a month!
for a counterargument against biological destiny producing exploitation etc. the work of biologist Stephen Jay Gould is where it's at.
Cool! Thanks very much! I have read anything book length by Stephen Jay Gould yet, so I'll definitely take a look.
I think Mismeasure of Man is his most prominent and pointed argument against biological destiny
Could we not have so many ads next time?
YT did seem to go a little nuts with the ads on this one for some reason 🤪
Sorry! I wish I could control that. Once the ads are on, RUclips determines how many of them appear. I don't know why, but it seems like RUclips really loads my discussions with A.P. with ads.
It does seem that way. Iskar, do you have any idea if I can control this in any way, or do we only have two options -- ads or no ads -- with no control over how many appear?
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy ah, that’s a shame.
@@IskarJarak I think some gods are interfering...