BrainScratch: Zodiac Killer Part 3 - John's Theory
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Wikipedia Entry:
en.wikipedia.o...
"This is the Zodiac Speaking" documentary:
• This is the Zodiac Spe...
MysteryQuest "Richard Gaikowski" documentary:
• Video
All Letters at ZodiacKiller.com:
www.zodiackille...
"Friend" confesses to being Zodiac Killer:
abc7news.com/ar...
Similar to Jack the Ripper in sending letters and taunting the police.
Serial killers rarely, if ever, stop killing on their own. Their compulsion to kill is too overwhelming. In looking for a suspect, start with when the last known event tied to them occurred. Chances are that following that event, they were jailed on an unrelated charge, committed to a mental health facility, or died.
Unless he changed his modus operandi (which is possible, based on his prior behavior) and was able to continue killing without drawing attention to himself, I doubt there will be any deathbed confession.
Thanks for tackling this one, it certainly is a brain scratcher!
Gully R. The BTK killer hadn't been heard from in many years & had stopped killing. I had always assumed he was in prison for something else or had died when I was really young. Then I fly home from Vegas & see he has been arrested & it was Dennis Radar who had a family & still lived in the same place! He sent something from his churches computer that was traced back to him! I was so surprised he was still alive honestly. I had assumed the zodiac Killer had probably died, but many people live to the age of 75 so it's very interesting. For some reason I feel like he was a teenager when he started this. Like with the costume type outfit. It reminds me of the Columbine school killers. He was very sloppy too!
All Jack's letter are most likely hoaxes by reporters and in one case a medical student. We will never know.
Now we know Golden State killer also stopped.
John, you should do the Black Dahlia case
I can do that for you: Walter Alonzo Bayley
maybe the cab driver realized he had zodiac in his car and possibly tried to trap/capture him leading to his demise.
As a former military man, an army man, with almost a decade on active duty, and two combat tours, I can tell you it's a fallacy to believe that a person with military training would be prepared to kill in an easy fashion. Killing, even for military vets, is never easy. Killing is not a natural act. Even the sociopathic serial killer panics, sweats, runs, hides, chickens out. The military connection of the Zodiac is speculation, and I might not buy it myself, but you can't dismiss it because of a false assumption that basic training makes it easier to kill someone. There is very little 'killing' practice done in basic training.
Thanks for the personal insight on this Wolf Williams. It adds some much needed understanding and helps develop a better profile.
Keep posting; keep adding to the volume of people we have interested in this case. We'll likely never solve it, but the more interest we have in it, the more possibilities arise that someone will see something we've all been missing all these years. ... See ya on the next round of comments!
Probably a lot easier if you just enjoy killing people anyway...ever heard of the zebra killers?
Wolf Williams as a retired noncommissioned officer with three combat deployment, killing gets easier as time goes on for some but not all. Don't presume for the whole just because you're a part.
ebad6701 'On Killing' and hundreds of other studies on human tendencies in combat tell us that killing another human being is never an easy choice unless you have a natural sociopath or you train someone to act and think sociopathically, something military training has tried hard to get good at. Most soldiers in combat never pull a trigger, even when it would benefit them to do so. This is not me talking; this is psychological and empirical research on battlefield conduct. Knowing that, it's more likely than not that the Zodiac's military connection, supposing he had one, would have very little to do with his ability or desire to kill repeatedly.
I think it was two guys. That's why things changed up so often and DNA and line ups don't match.
I've always thought the high amount of Circumstantial evidence against both Allen and Gaikowski could possibly mean they knew each other and both participated in the plots. Toschi to this day swears it was Leigh Allen.
It was Donald Harden and his wife Bettye Harden.
On his wanting to 'be discovered' - whilst the logic is evident, the flaw with this line -
people don't always know when they're going to die. If it was a swift 'exit' - such as a
heart attack, he may not have had the opportunity to fulfil his dramatic 'ideal'.
The lack of drive, re: DNA - sad, and infuriating in equal measure.
Particularly as the tech is improving at such a pace.
DNA in the private sphere - can't say this doesn't worry me slightly.
We've seen so much attempted profiteering already - perhaps the
state's cold function may afford some greater protection from the aspirations of
some of our less ethical peers?
I think his evident disfunction points more strongly towards being an only child
(kids w/ siblings typically being brought to some level of social sophistication,
the the trials of 'family life') ..
If right, this may be unfortunate - as familial DNA offers considerable scope - e.g.
we may have seen him identified through siblings, grand nieces, nephews etc etc.
Cf. w/ if he became the 'last of the line' and died - much less scope.
This case has more red herrings than a Russian trawler .
Thank you so much for these 3 videos! Great job collecting the information. Although I have heard about the Zodiac Killer before, I know very little about the case. I'll have to do some digging and maybe find some useful info.
It was Ted Cruz.
lololo
Not only in the bay area did they have police escort school buses. I live in Stockton, about 80 miles from SF and basically all of N. California was panicked. I'll never forget those days. Pretty scary stuff. I've always been fascinated with the Zodiac and who he really was or is. I also think those other cyphers are a bunch of crap with no meaning, the reason they can't crack them.
just because I take the info from the movie, but the third couple killed happened during daytime. So maybe he was less comfortable because the night could not hide his face. And also the fact that Mageau survived even with multiple gunshots. He might have felt less confident at that time. He also did not succeed in killing Hartnell.
I have to admit I don't know enough about this case to say the following but the idea you suggested about the police saying 'no, we are not going to give him the satisfaction of being caught' seemed odd to me. I mean if they knew who it was they would have 2 options -
1) As I believe you suggested (correct me if I'm wrong) just allow him to go free & let the legend die with others saying it was them
2) Arrest him but cover it up to not publicise it and draw attention. Maybe saying it was for another smaller crime.
I honestly find it hard to believe that the police department knew who it was but would just allow a mass-murder to go free just so he doesn't get the satisfaction of being caught (but of course not saying it is impossible). I think a more likely scenario if they DID know who it was is to frame him for a smaller crime, lock him away / worse and keep it quiet to not glorify him (to avoid starting off more people doing the same thing).
Anyway John, as I say, I am 100% NOT qualified to be making calls on this case as I know very little about it. Remember I am only questioning the situation IF the police knew who it was.
Great episodes as always! I always look forward to Brain Scratch :)
There is a movie Zodiac,you can watch,i liked that movie and this entire case.
+Veggie Gamer You make very good points VG. I would hope that if they knew who it was that they would haul him in, but if they didn't have enough evidence to convict him, they might not. There should be some murder weapons still floating around (I'm sure they can test the barrel marks on the bullets used on the scenes), so I'm hoping someday that definitive proof will pop up. I'm just not sure if they will find it, or if he will present it on his deathbed (like I mentioned in the video).I always appreciate your insight, and thanks for being such a strong supporter of the show! Have a great one,John
The only unique evidence in the case is the Wing Walker boot print. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to lead authorities to Zodiac. I have to believe that Zodiac was so into the media and hints, that I just don't see him dying without leaving something behind to tell the world he got away with it in the end
It was Donald Harden and his wife Bettye Harden. Bettye left behind a confession.
My theory after reading about the case since 2000 :
1. The guy didn't killed 37 + people like he claimed he did, his ego was so big that he would have given proof of these murders. He lied about murdering a cop, he can't be trusted and the whole 37+ victims was a mind game.
2. The guy was "Zodiac" for only 20-21 months. In his last letters he tried to use other identities (Red Phantom, a citizen). To me it shows a psychological downward spiral, a guy losing his identity as a killer. I wouldn't be surprised if he committed suicide shortly after the last letter was mailed.
3. He was almost caught after killing Stine. That could have created a doubt in his mind. Is it coincidence that he decided to lie about his future crimes shortly after being almost caught near the Stine crime scene? I am convinced Stine was his last victim, 200%.
I agree with much of what you state Jonathan, It's one that I've been fascinated by since high school, There is a lot of disconnect if it really was just one person, I'd imagine the weight/appearance fluctuations we're down to being in and out of an asylum/psych unit where medication along with a regime of meals can easily put a good 70 - 100 lbs on an individual if they're gaunt/not looking after themselves, Whilst losing their marbles, They get out (If it isn't a forced sectioning or only for a 2 to 3 month period at a time, Which is quite common AFAIK) and ditch the meds and go straight back to the obsession that drives them.I also strongly agree that the police deployed on the Stine scene bumped into the guy but let him walk due to some bad information about "a negro male" made it into the picture somehow (and in those day's, Really not much of a surprise, Especially with it being the LAPD!).I still feel as much as I've I read and viewed about this individual I still do not know the individual at all, Probably the more avenues I've looked down, The more alien the actual killer has become to me. So I became incapable of objectivity.After leaving it the hell alone for a while now (years), I still don't think I've any answers but more questions if anything, Like pulling straws at random tbh.All the best dude and again quality points made that make a lot of sense
THAT is what I feel too.Rather then evolution of a killer I see someone who is spiraling downwards.
There was different "Richard" in the case. "Ricky" was possibly the drug dealer who Mike Migeu was said to had told the police and the drug house hot raided.
A couple years ago I drew an incredible interest in this case and at one point even tried solving one of the ciphers with my best friend. In hindsight, I wish we would have asked his father for help as he was ex-military and had a lot of friends in high places who could have helped us solve the cipher. Nevertheless We atleast completed the first 2.5 lines. and after a week of standstill sort of gave up. We postulated theory after theory, the one we felt was the most correct at the time however I know feel is quite incorrect was there may have been one committing the murders and one writing the letters. Again, I digress, at this point in time and around that time I felt it may have been going that way, but at this point It basically is "The Black Dahlia Murder". All kinds of speculation, and theories, however no real way of convicting anyone at this point. Even if we did, there's not really a point. I guess we could collectively pat ourselves on the back and say good job.
+Ryu Zane At a bare minimum, you should be proud for caring enough to do all that work. This guy hurt a lot of people, and deserved to face justice.
I'll say it for you.. GOOD JOB! :-)
A while back, my daughter started Psychology at school, and they had to write roughly, a few pages on motives of a serial killer/mass murderer, where they have to put themselves in the shoes of a serial killer and write as though they are the killer. She chose to write about the Yorkshire Ripper--(me and him both are from Bradford) and she said her friend was doing The Zodiac Killer--my daughter hadn't heard of him so we watched the film Zodiac. She said after we watched it, that it was probably the guy who cracked the cipher (Donald Harden) as really just a throwaway comment. So, looking him up on you tube there is seriously a good case for it actually being him.
Wonder if horror scope ever pops up in there....didn't the word kill decode one? Many narcopaths use I a lot.
One of the things you missed was that Darlene Ferrin knew the Zodiac, there were 5 calls all up the night she was killed, 2 were to her house, one to her brother in law and one to her father in law and were heavy breathing.
Where did this info come from ?
If you’re talking about what’s in Robert Graysmith’s book, there is quite a bit of inaccuracies regarding it. Most of it is set up to have Arthur Leigh Allen as they Zodiac Killer. For instance, Darlene’s cousin said there was never a party as described in the book. The party in the book sounds like people were invited and just had a great time drinking and eating and that even people Darlene and her husband didn’t know arrived. That didn’t happen. The truth is a group of people who came to paint her husband and hers house, and then they just ate and drank a bit afterwards. The only people who were there were friends and family members. Nobody outside was ever invited. Things like that are Graysmith just making things up or twisting what people told him who may not even recall exactly what happened at certain points regarding to the victims, so they tell him things that what they think happened and if it fits his narrative than it goes into the book. He probably omitted things from interviews he conducted from people that weren’t giving him a narrative that lead to Allan being the Zodiac. It’s a real shame people cling to Graysmith’s book as 100% nonfiction, when there’s a good degree of fiction in it. The film does sort of lean in the direction that Allen is the Zodiac, but not too much. It’s like he could be the Zodiac, yet he may not be. He was the main suspect/person of interest so there is going to be a good focus on Allen in the film. The film does portray the events as they occurred and took liberties when needed as well as having different actors portray the Zodiac to help accurately show how different and at the same time how similar Zodiac looked at each crime.
I still like Lawrence Kane as the prime suspect.
I seen pics of a Timex watch with band that they found at one of the crime scenes. Why can't they run a DNA test on it and see if matches any of their suspects now?
Another suspect...Zodiac Identified: His name was Donald Gene Harden. His full identity was found hidden in the 408 cipher and Zodiac did say it was in there.The symbol that he sent (with 4 dots around it) which represents the 4 crime scenes,connects all 4 crime scene areas to Salinas Ca where he lived at the time of these crimes. He matches both sketches,with and without glasses.The # 408 ,which was the number of characters in Zodiac's first code, was also Don's area code.The 408 cipher had 54 unique symbols,Harden's address was #54 at that time in 1969.The Melvin Belli meeting address that Zodiac gave was 6726 St Vincent De Paul Thrift Shop. Harden's last 4 digits of his phone # back then were 6726 exactly. His initials DH were hidden in the bus bomb diagram's .Don's zodiac sign was Pisces, so it fits with the water theory. Don's height was in the 5 8" and 5 10" description range ,like officer Don Fouke described,Don was 5 10" with a 10 1/2 shoe like prints found at LB. Don Fouke got the best look at Zodiac.Harden was in the age range that Fouke described as 40-45. Harden was 41. He even pretended to be a hoaxer and really did call the Jim Dunbar show knowing they would dismiss him as a hoaxer for acting stupid like he didn't know what he was talking about. His wife Bettye wrote a partial confession in Robert Graysmith's Zodiac (which was a Salinas Library book) that read: I started the Zodiac case and ended it,the last half of this book is theory. When I write the true ending,it will shake the earth! Bettye Harden - Bettye Harden letter B from Graysmith's book, matches letter B in 1974 Badlands letter,same year as the Exorcist letter, see link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToBOjI...
Zodiac sent the 1971 Pines card with the advertisement for the new Forest Pines condominiums in Lake Tahoe. Donald Harden was in the real estate condominium business. He had ties with Lake Tahoe.
Harden tied to Lake Tahoe ,News article can be seen here:news.google.com/newspapers?nid...
Another good vid, Thank you. Now I'm gonna pull a huge rabbit on this one. - Military brat.(the boots were his Dad's) Social misfit unaccepted by his Dad. Underachiever in school although far from stupid. 1st sexual experience was with the married woman(D. Ferrin) and he thought he was winning her away from her husband. When he realized he was one of many in her life he snapped. Got the wrong couple the 1st time, realized he enjoyed killing by the 2nd killing(when he DID get her) and just continued. Also enjoyed taunting the police n gave him a sense power for the 1st time in his life. I'd even go so far as to say he probably killed his father too(and even called the police n claimed he found him dead) and then soaked up the sympathy for all it was worth. Just my opinion based on the info here and my experience in Psychological Profiling. Take it for what it's worth.
Quite believable. I think that after he did kill Darlene there was nothing more for him to "aspire' to, and he found that killing in and of itself was thrilling so he kept on doing it. To me the most mysterious aspect is the very long period of "abstinence", i.e., no killing, and then the last mailed message, around 78. I can't imagine what he was doing with himself.
between 2bridges The BTK killer hadn't been heard from in years when he was caught and I had assumed he was dead or in prison for another crime so maybe someday we will know. I feel like the zodiac killer was a teenager. He reminds me of some of the school shooters that were bullied. Idk though... obviously 🤔 Maybe when he got older he no longer wanted to be found out. I hope we someday know though
the woman and the child, did the police not ask what this man looked like? But your theory makes sense, a killer wanting to cover tracks gets a taste and changes MO to cover earlier "crime of passion" and starts playing a game.
She pointed at Kane...
Hi John ,I am sick today so I thought let's binge watch some great mysteries on Brainscratch. I must have missed this the first time around but I wanted to tell you that Michael Mageau did not really identify Arthur lee Allen in the way that has been told.He was in Canada,Thunder bay at the time.He told the agent that ..That man looked most like him,he also reported that his face was wide like the man who injured him.What bothers me is that is not an actual identification it's more of a ,"Yeh,he sort of looked like this guy with the wide face.That looks like him".When the man approached he had the flashlight on his face...so he couldn't make out any features just width and body type.One aspect that I have never heard a good answer for is why was Mike wearing 3 layers of clothing that night?Including pants? I just don't understand that at all?Also when researching this case I stayed away from anything that Robert Greysmith wrote.He has this habitual problem of exaggerating and on some occasions just making things up.This is where the "100% yes that's him for sure" falsehood came from.Whats even more annoying is that Greysmiths falsehoods made it into Police statements and his books became legendary in a truly negative manner.Sometimes,I think that he benefited above and beyond with these cases... I am working on writing a book regarding the disappearance of a girl named Tamra Keepness in Regina,Saskatchewan.Canada. I am being really careful with my words because this little girl has a family and she represents the lack of attention that Canadians pay to First Nations individuals. I believe that if you are going to write a book that all evidence that is fact should be listed as such but when you start to cross into unproven claims then it's the writers duty to stress that it's an unproven fact.Auther lee Allen was a sex offender and if he was to commit any crime it would be sexually motivated towards children.He was also alibied for 2 separate cases but due to the police agencies having this ridiculous competition going nobody really grasped that...until later. I can't believe the inconsistencies in some crime books..especially when they talk about how a deseased victim was feeling...how do they know what was going through any persons mind that can't even verify those ideas...due to their death? It is really nutty! Anyways I just wanted to add that because I am binge watching today and I hope you understand that I mean no offense.Your channel is exceptional John and you are helping so many people .Your kindness is abundant and you should be very happy 😊 with what you have done.🐣🐒🐰😀🙋
Hey John..here are my little notes for what it's worth:
1) Targeted women he knew that may have turned him down or laughed at him and then seen them w/other men.
2) After the 1st male victim survived the shooting and said his name he switched to wearing a mask and using a knife thinking they wouldn't survive that.
4) Zodiac also translates in Greek to an animal figure (he drew monkeys for holloween)
5) He liked to draw and did cartoons well, here's a stretch, wasn't there a cartoonist that worked for the paper helping w/the case? Just a thought
6) Military boots for walking on planes and coded messages..sounds military to me and was around the time of Vietnam.
7) Norse code is what he wrote in one of the letters, not morse. Type in Google "Norse" and there's a book that was released in 2009 with codes that look similar to the zodiac codes...just weird is all.
8) Why did the murders stop in 69? In his letters next to his symbol he wrote -12 then -17. I believe meaning that's how many he killed.
Did they quit telling the public because they had no real suspect..or..did he move to another state and continue his murders and flew into SF and mailed the letters when seeing family or friends?
Just mt thoughts...without researching all the links.
Thanks John..look forward to Friday's Spotlight :-)
+Jenial B. Awesome post with some real good considerations. Thanks Jenial!
+GeekenDorx :-)
Everyone falls down the Darlene Ferrin rabbit hole. I think she was simply a person at the wrong place at the wrong time. Like his other victims, I think she was just another target of opportunity who showed up in a secluded location he specifically targeted for victims b/c of it's seclusion, versus targeting a specific person w/ personal malice as a motive. Mrs. Ferrin's dating and flirting habits lends itself to that type of speculation. Micheal Mageau being the epitome of a terrible eyewitness (story has changed considerably since his original statements), and Darlene's attention seeking sister haven't been helpful, either.
Some really great stuff. Glad I came across it.
I've always held the opinion that the Zodiac wasn't a single person.
My personal opinion on this would be that your initial thought on this woman triggering a murder is probably true, as that is not uncommon at all. Perhaps he expected to get caught at some point and when he didn't, he figured he might as well go all out villain, dress up in a costume and try as many different styles of murder as he could possibly think of. When murdering and terrorizing people didn't get him attention, he decides to test the reaction of the police by saying he's murdered a multitude of people. I get the vibe that he's conflicted between wanting to be caught, and amazed at what he is getting away with at the same time. Hence why he would send troll like messages to authorities, however, things like sending letters saying you're going to shoot out tires on a school bus and the kids that walk off it seems like an attempt to divert police attention so he could conduct some other murder. He does seem to be a strange mix of clever and clumsy (or deliberately open) and the fact that he wasn't caught over other seemly careful killers is what is most baffling about this case. It's difficult to say if he will ever be found out, or if it's too late in terms of collecting evidence without the killers help. It also may be case of copycat killings. It is a lot and I feel my brain racking trying to absorb the case. Thanks for getting me into another deep thought, you're pretty good at that.
+SolidSnake2948 Definitely a mix of clever and clumsy. His focus seems to shift in so many directions that understanding his ultimate motivation is pretty tough.Glad I got your brain working on this. Let me know if you have any other theories and thanks for being such a great supporter!
GeekenDorx No problem! I love youtube channels that encourage thought and different view points (and who doesn't like a good mystery for a subject?) and you are one of the best on that front.
I truly appreciate that. Have an awesome week!
I agree with u. it'll come out when HE wants it to.
+TheMYERSFAN25 Unless he died many years ago. What if he died as far back as 1971 or 72? That's been one of my theories for a long time now. It would explain why there were no more confirmed Zodiac killings.
A New Horizon True.
perhaps he picked on the wrong person and ended up getting shot himself...
I tend to agree with you about the military angle and that Zodiac wasn't in the military. Seems to me if he had military training he would use a much higher caliber than a .22
throughout this whole thing i couldn't help but think of how childlike the zodiac killer seems? first he kills couples, then changes his MO several times and sends cryptic messages and threatens to kill kids and sends schematics for bombs. he seems like a massive attention-seeking person. i completely agree with the way you described him as a troll. only difference is the zodiac killer actually has acts under his belt to threaten people with. trolls are 100% empty threats.
it also bothers me a lot that all these people on their deathbeds are claiming to be the ZK. i'm thinking to myself "sit your old ass down!" when i hear this stuff. it just muddies the water even more and makes the investigation and mystery that much more of a chore to sift through because you can't simply dismiss these people just in case.
Honestly, right away I got the idea of multiple killers in my head. It could've possibly started as one, but others cropped up copying the first. I don't think there's anything to suggest that that's even a possibility but with the different MOs that's what came to mind. I'm assuming all the DNA evidence they've found matches itself so it's probably just my mind running.
Zodiac Killer was Donald Harden.
Have you seen the movie "The Zodiac" w/ Jake Gyllenhal(sp?) It's based on Robert Graysmiths book of the same name iirc. He has Authur Lee Allen as his guy, for what it's worth, and the movie makes a strong case for it. It's a good movie either way whether you believe Graysmith or not (many don't).
Anyhow great videos as always GD.
+Nola213 I haven't seen it yet, but I'm definitely interested in it now.Thanks Nola, have a nice weekend!
GeekenDorx you too, get some rest and relax, after this trilogy of videos I'm sure you'll need it. Glad you went over to Zodiackillerdotcom, that's pretty much biggest and best resource for anything and everything Zodiac.and you're right the Webmaster, who has been on television, has changed his suspect from Allen to Gaikowski, it's still a wonderful place for Zodiac info.
+GeekenDorx Yeah you should watch movie,it was good for me.Oh and can you make in future a video about Jack the Ripper?
+Nola213 it is a great movie, but because it's based on Graysmith's book the real facts of the case get lost. His book is full of stuff he made up for the book. It's not a good place to go for facts on the case. But I do still really like the movie. There are hours and hours worth of subject material on this case to discuss, but I think John does a great job of condensing some key points!
Thanks for the insight and kind words!
Was Darlene's husband ever considered as a suspect? Maybe he wasn't so happy with all of her cheating, and that could have been a trigger. I've read that Darlene made statements that implied someone she knew was scaring her or stalking, but she never mentioned the name. Very intriguing.
Yeah Darley had several lovers, including 1 or 2 cops and the way "Zodiac" approached the car was very similar to the way a cop would approach a parked car. Mike thought it was a cop and was ready to show the killer his ID card. Very intriguing possibility.
Jonathan Turbide what if it was the zebra killer? They could've done some...zodiac complained about this and said to wear buttons for his cause...it looks like a big hoax.
no pattern of his killing and lazy police work
Z did hint that he was going to cut communication but would continue to kill. 3 years later he wrote his exorcist letter, including the number 37. Doesn't this explain as to why the number jumped up?
I watched all 3 of your videos... you didn’t mention how Zodiac called into that talk show. I forget the name, but the movie showed it.
Great thinking. Greats posts. I think deathbed proof of a hood or knife may leave doubt still. Items from Stein's wallet or keys would do it. He could hide or bury such small items then simply give/leave location upon death. But if he has living family he could decide not to ever reveal. Great ideas/theory in your video. Thanks.
And is it just me or does the man who you have on the screen for most the video look like an older version of the composite sketch of Zodiac?!
ebad6701 Holy shit that's what I was just thinking! I thought for a minute that he might have been pretending to be a victim all along while being the actual killer (wouldn't that be the ultimate troll move lol) but I googled it and he was shot 4 times so I'm pretty sure he really was a victim. But it is weird how identical he looks to that sketch of the zodiac.
@@whitneyangelie3682 Another reason this guy cannot be Zodiak is because the killer called in the crime from a payphone away from the kill site.
As for the military training, wasn't that more related to the cyphers? Thus there's a good chance it is a group, the person writing the cyphers and the killer are different people, or maybe there is a large array of killers.
Here's a profile on Zodiac
White male, 5''6" to 510", 180 - 200 lbs, age: 25 - 45. Wearing glasses (which could have been either a necessity or part of his disguise). Definitely lived/lives in or around San Francisco area.
A possible military connection shouldn't be dismissed: the unique boots, his knowledge on encryption and bomb (two very uncommon subjects) made a very convincing argument.
Some level of education, quite smart. A lunatic with a warped and twisted mind.
Self-entitled attention seeker. Enjoyed ridiculing police, challenging authorities. Very likely had suffered some damning mistreatment at the hands of law, or his boss. Or, his own (most likely extremely strict) parents.
Another crazy idea: Zodiac might have been a former cop, a failed rank-climber. He believed that his bosses were all stupid that they didn't deserve the authoritarian position they held.
Money was never a motive. So, if Zodiac wasn't already rich, he must have had a pretty well-paid job.
As cold as he was, when it comes to children that was where he drew the line.
A lone loony: No social life, no drinking, no close family ties.
As much as the Zodiac killer *loved* talking about himself, fame, and his crimes, I'm surprised he hasn't slipped and told someone, bragging about his "conquests" while drunk or letting his guard down.I'd be willing to bet that whoever he is, he acts like one of those people that's obsessed with solving this case. He probably even engages in forum talks and writes blogs on the subject (again, under the ruse of being an armchair super sleuth that's obsessed with "catching the zodiac killer"). I just don't think his ego could ever let it go! If I was trying to catch this guy, I'd be paying attention to people who've been obsessed with this case and have spent years and years of their lives talking about it, trying to "solve it" etc. for a long time and talk to others about it all the time. Of all the suspects they have now, that guy Goyek (sp?) seems the most likely to me and looks exactly like the sketch (same hairline and everything) but I don't know enough about him or his circumstances to know how seriously of a suspect he is.
After listening to a couple podcasts about the Zodiac and thinking about it for a while, I'm about 90% sure the zodiac killer never existed.
+Cameron Brwdway I definitely came away feeling like it could be more than one person. The MO's are all over the place.
Yeah, stabbing a couple young people and then shooting and robbing a cabbie? Come on. I'd like to know another serial killer whose MO changes so drastically. Also the descriptions of the killer change so much as well. Something Robert Graysmith lied about.
I could go into how fishy Robert Graysmith is but I'm not gonna bother.
There's always the possibility he could have or will die(d) in a more unexpected and spontaneous fashion like heart attack, for example. In which case, he wouldn't have to chance to speak up.
I remember when this was happening. It was scary to be out on the street for a while. It's odd that he would kill different kinds of people when most serial killers focus on one kind. I wonder if there were possibly copy cat killers.
+barbh1 Ive heard many theories about this case that speculates there were actually 2 murderers working toghether! Im not a expert on this case so i cant say how realistic those speculations are but there has been cases where killers teamed up so i suppose its a theory one maybe can look at if interested.
I get the feeling the Taxi driver that he killed was simply because he had been challenged by the police and or the media and felt he needed to prove himself by cutting a piece of the Taxi drivers shirt and mailing it to them.
Paul Avery also described him as a "Latent homosexual" in an article after lake Berryessa due to two consecutive murders where he was unable to finish off the male victim. I believe the lone male victim and his subsequent threats against Avery was in direct response to that article.
One thing I've always hoped to do --
Set up some geographical models ---- doesn't need to be sophisticated necessarily -
suitable scale maps, some cotton, and some pins would be a good start ---
(set up on a large cork notice board or similar)
Factoring in ----
Victims' locations - homes, workplace, etc, and site of muder
POIs - homes, workplace,
With some sort of key so that it can be laid out in a chronological order ... colour keys, for example.
The professionals have done some work in this area - see:
ruclips.net/video/fXbCR0nGj_E/видео.html
"Zodiac Killer - Geographical Profiling"
If would take a good deal of work - but adding in any 'relationship' factors may be of potential value -
Not necessarily between POI and victim - but broad enough in scope to establish any cross overs ---
e.g Victim knows X. POI knows X. (or subsets of similar themes)
Such an interesting case. So many different leads. Will we ever find out the true killer? I believe he may already have died if he hasn't revealed himself yet. Also believe the coded letters could just of been mambo jumbo to throw people off. Thanks for making another awesome episode of brainscatch. Roll on next Friday :)
+Chester Gibson Hey Chester! I think I'm with you on the coded letters. I'm sure someone has thrown computers and decryption software at this case.. it should have been cracked by now if it was legit.See you next Friday!
Why didn't they go through all state tax filings, marriage licenses, and other state or gov docs at the time to check the handwriting? Sure it would've been a daunting task, but compared to the 40+ years they've dedicated to finding Zodiac, it would've been a walk in the park in comparison. State tax filings would've been easily accomplished, they didn't use typewriters to do taxes back then and wrote them by hand. Now we have DNA and it is suspicious they won't share it with other agencies. WTH?
I am so so addicted to your channel John. I've done nothing but watch it for about 2 weeks strait :) My husband loves conspiracy stuff so trying to get him into it too. Keep it up... we love a good Brain Scratch.
Thank you for sending me a reply in Part 1 of your Zodiac videos. BrainScratch is a great series - very well done. I thought about your theory on the Zodiac possibly having an info. package, ready to hand over to the police, when he knows his time is short. If this does happen, I would hope the police would only inform the victims and their families. The true identity of the Zodiac should never become public knowledge. Let me explain. The Zodiac wants his name and crimes to be talked/written about long after his death. The police should make sure his name is never known to the world. The Zodiac is a true coward - ambushing unarmed, innocent people - threatening women and children. I do understand that so many people want to know who the Zodiac is; but, that name should only be known to the people who deserve closure. To anyone reading this comment: Do you understand? - Thank you - C.S.
+Chris Senzatimore I totally see your point, and that is pretty how I'm used to handling people that are purely looking for attention. Cut them off from what they crave. Deny the legacy that he thinks he earned.
Great job, John! I love your theory! Definitely resonates. Also, silly really, his get-up is very Ned Kelly (Famous Australian Bushranger). That weirdly went through my head when the picture came up on the screen. But going back to your theory. I believe as you do, that when the killer does pass on, that you would expect something organised to reveal who is. Like you said, he was very out there with his letters, and certainly wasn't shy in that aspect. Very interesting!!
I really really think you'd enjoy Zodiac the movie as much as I did if you're intrigued with the case like I am. Just to be clear I'm referring to the 2007 movie with Robert Downey, Jr. and Jake Gyllenhaal. I'm sure there are several movies with Zodiac in the title. One thing though. The ending kind of comes to a conclusion that...well I'll let you see for yourself lol. But I can't say I agree with it at this point in time. Although the movie does make a strong surge towards that angle.
+Steve Stevensteverson (Mac) Also I should point out that it's said there are a lot of inaccuracies in the movie compared to the real life case. Still a good movie.
+Steve Stevensteverson (Mac) I'm going to check it out this week. Thanks Steve!
Here is the "cops did it" side: they found out who did it, but wanted to be famous so they didn't arrest the person. The person was close with the cops and they didn't arrest them over that. Or as crazy as it is, it could be an inside job. Maybe the killer was a cop or something set up by the cops. If it was a cop who got sick of patrolling lovers lane spots, then he could have snapped started killing some.
Now the other side: It was more then one person. You have killers that use the same m.o. There are a lot of Lover Lane killers. The notes where either written by an accomplice or someone just wanting to get fame for the killings. If the case of an accomplice, it would have been someone who drove the shooter/stabber to the spot to let them kill, the person is a victim and unwilling accomplice. They were forced to write the letters.
Overall, I find it all that with all the expert deciphers couldn't crack the letters. Some couple cracked one of the letters, but non of the top fbi experts couldn't. You could call it crazy, it's just hard to believe.
+Mickeys MDN Interesting thoughts. One of the victims did initially think a cop was shining a light in their face (before the shooting started).I believe the ciphers that have yet to be decoded might be faked, or created just to waste time and resources. It's pretty odd to me that with computers and programs like we have nowadays for encryption and decryption, that someone can't crack these. I just doesn't seem feasible that they're real.
Zodiac was Donald Harden and his wife Bettye Harden.
have you ever looked in to the fact that maybe at the beginning up until the children bus thing that maybe all these ppl he killed knew darlene on some level? is that a possibility?
love your vids. have you heard about Annabelle's case? curios since it seems to be in your area of interest perhaps? cases that get ignored...basically. anyways please visit my channel or site for more info if you have the desire. love your vids and point of view
+sai anarchy Hi Sai, I haven't heard of Annabelle (is there a last name)? I'll be sure to take a look at your channel soon!
GeekenDorx
Oh thank you! Annabelle is a 2 yr old... raped by Thomas Boden, her mothers bf. You can find all case info on her pg on my site saianarchy.com :) Thank you!
I've had an obsession with this case for over 10 years now and I believe the Zodiac had to have been at least two people working together. The m.o. just doesn't add up he goes from shootings from a distance in the dead of night to a stabbing up close in broad daylight? I think Arthur Leigh Allen was involved there's too much incriminating evidence to rule him out but I don't think he acted alone which is why much of the evidence doesn't lead to him directly.
John check out the live phone call of the zodiac with melvin belli. I'm not sure whether it could be another person pretending to be the zodiac...what do you think?
+Kanjo Racer My gut is that this is not him. If I recall correctly, one of the 911 dispatchers that spoke to the Zodiac during one of his confession calls also questions the validity of this caller. There is no pertinent info given, the host and lawyer seem to be leading the conversation. I think this is an early form of a ratings grab (done intentionally or possibly unintentionally) by the show. This dialogue also does not match the tone of the letters, in which the Zodiac controls the conversation, and of course he doesn't state his catchphrase "This is the Zodiac speaking," which I believe a guy with an ego like he apparently had would take full advantage of.We can't know for certain of course, but my gut is leaning towards this being a fake.
He sounds way too young as well as the real Zodiac seems to be a much older wiser and more taunting person
I don't think Modesto and Reno are the Zodiac at all,very possibly those are Arthur Leigh Allen who was trying to copycat the killer,it's even a chance that Allen did kill the taxi driver.
Weird one I noticed: Ever look at the Zodiac composite sketch from SF and DB Cooper? They look oddly similar....
I've always been interested in the Zodiac since I grew up in CA outside of Salinas and my mom was right in the middle of the panic with the kids on a bus thing,I was born in 1975 so in some ways it was still kinda happening when I was a kid.
nice work, so far. now go out and catch him!
Some of the best discussion of the facts and a sincere use of logical thinking!!!!! FKING BRILLIANT DUDE!!!!!
When I very first started to hear about this years ago, I was pretty young and because of the way the whole thing unfolded - all those twists and turns - I mistakenly thought it was Zodiac Killers, and that two people with different M.O.s were colluding to throw off the police etc. Anyway, it was shortly after this that I read the Robert Graysmith book.
As for current theories, I think him confessing on his deathbed, with irrefutable proof, is as good as any.
If the police department *did* pursue the line of thinking you put out there, it backfired pretty spectacularly considering how things have panned out. I think someone as sick as this guy would probably adapt from not being the 'martyr celebrity' as you say, to seeing his legend (not an appropriate word I know) grow exponentially over the years.
Looking forward to the next topic.
+Hassan Izzo Great post Hassan, and I agree.. I don't think this legend is going to die anytime soon (however, he may want his real name attached to the legend). We'll see if one day a deathbed confession may pan out. Seems to be our best bet at this point.
+GeekenDorx Or he might already be passed on and not say anything at all and will still be talked about for years to come. especially like you said he wants the attention so why not still have the attention when your dead and still be talked about. :)
Good point Justin. A solved mystery isn't going to be thought about as often.
I suspect this was actually a cult activity, not the work of one suspect. I can see the merit in and respect your theory though, fascinating stuff. I recommend reading Dave McGowan's "Programmed to Kill".
Has no one deciphered the letters to this day? That can't be that hard to not be figured out after all this time. A job for cicada 3301 lol
+platinumchopper I have someone that has contacted me and it appears he may have solved one of the letters. I might do a video on that if I can spend a little more time understanding his method. It gets pretty complicated, but the decoded message certainly sounds like the Zodiac.
+GeekenDorx great, yes it would be great to see a video on that
Who says there was ONLY 1 killer? Maybe it's a copycat type thing
Is it possible that he started wearing the costume because there was a survivors and the taxi driver may have said something about thinking the zodiac was a cowardly and it pissed him off so he killed him
Hmmm. What better way to really get to Z, who we know loved the hype and publicity around his crimes, than to just let him be forgotten and let some other guy (or a few other guys) take ‘credit’? Z was into mindgames and if the police really did do it that way that’s the most effective one to have played on him.
Although, I am kind of appalled at how he’s been turned into some sort of cultural icon. The guy was a sadistic serial killer. The Mike Mageu interview was heartbreaking. Z essentially condemned that poor man to life. That’s not something or someone who should be glorified in any way. John, this wasn’t aimed at you my friend. The way you’ve covered this has been very respectful and professional, the way you are with all your cases.
If he’s alive, I wonder if he reads the forums about him? I wonder if he’ll ever see this video? If so, I have but one sentence to say to him: eternity is a long time, you’ll never escape that ;)
Don Cheney and Ron Allen! No I’m jk.. I wish it were Cheney//Leigh Allen but I’ll keep looking I guess
just found this video today ... I heard some time ago (while listening to a Coast to Coast radio show) that the suspect was noted to have a "rolling limp" ... have you ever heard this before?
I think somewhere in the timespan of the killings that either the killer took credit for something that he didn't do, such as the taxi driver murder, or that someone was pulling the leg of the newspaper. Or that maybe there was a copycat somewhere down the line. Either way, I don't believe that every killing and every note/phone call were all done by one individual.
+Steve Stevensteverson (Mac) The differences in the MO certainly support your theory.
GeekenDorx Probably someone with the police or newspapers planted some stuff to garner more attention. Maybe the reason why that cipher hasn't been solved is because it's made up gibberish?
I think that is also likely. With advances in technology, a program should have solved this by now, even if a person couldn't.
in the letter .....my name is _________________ you can align his name with the 13 ciphered characters ARTLEIGHALLEN. see video The Name of the Zodiac Killer: Deciphered! by Keith Massey, PhD. Also in 1991 zodiac survivor MIKE MAGEAU picked out the picture of ALLEN and identified him as the zodiac killer .
wrong! Richard, lee, mike, john, Starr, Dave, ZODIAC KILLER use the names of people he knew and also victims, see he is clever reason why never caught.
There is ZERO evidence for Gaikowski, who was gay, and not the right body size by a mile. That old lady couldn't ID the killer just based on a voice, which could have been anyone. Odds are, it was Ross Sullivan or Richard (Rick) Marshall (probably the latter).
IF the murder of Darlene was attributable to some 'romantic' or at least social connection - one way to avoid scrutiny bourne of some 'personal' connection -> muddy the waters through connecting these killings w/ the "Zodiac" killings ...
{unrequited love 1 likely scenario?}
1: Of course, this is as 'thin' as many other notions - but it's evident that *possible* social connections must be analysed, if only to rule out possibilities. (Not necessarily easy to do now, and not all those able to recount info. are reliable sadly)
2: Of course, the cold hearted killing of others, in pursuit of muddying said waters would seem appalling to any functional personality - but the narcissism of psychopaths is well known. A ready means to an end?
(the threats to children, the IED.. and apparent claims to murders committed by other killers might tie in
with this cynical mindset - Were police resources redirected on other avenues, potentially pointlessly? - distraction?)
Army Surplus ----> Agreed!
A few things:
1. Is it more than one person, due to different MOs?
2. Or is it one person who has really fooled the police by using different MOs. Something which is a huge slap in the face for police, as thats their first starting off point in any murder. "has the MO been used before?"
3. If you were on your death bed and decided to tell people you were the zodiac killer you say how to decipher the letters. Thats pretty big proof. Unless its true ALL of the letters that haven't been deciphered are just meaningless rubbish.
4. I think he wanted to be found out, so why not tell all to the media and not the police, as...
5. The police don't want this be solved, such as not allowing the DNA test. Maybe due to looking stupid, maybe they messed something up, in-fighting with other police forces?
6. Finally. What about Frank Dryman?
Interesting hypothesis. Mistaking Darlene and then finding her. Most interesting. 340 cipher is junk.
Was Giakowski a bomb builder or have the expertise? What level of knowledge was requisite?
isint That name Can't pronounce the detective in the movie take note the wheel in the movie on the Roads a Radial tyre falling off early 1960es Car also I agree @ % 110 on the Zodiac will talk it all out in the OPEN to Prove he's the one. Did he committed the Perfect Crime he Did. the cab driver wasint. the Zodiac but he took credit for it he wanted fame!!! Kevin of New Zealand age 69 well presented video I do remember it at the time he's alive as he would want to go out in a blaze of Glory. it's called the Holy grail of Crime Solving maybe you can crack it. do you give the Zodiac a Medal or through him to the Sharks add-on.
When the Zodiac is supposedly keeping score by showing his symbol with - saying a number and the sfpd-0.. I don't think that means keeping score of the body count, cause why would you keep track of something you will always win? Like of course the sfpd is 0 they didn't murder anyone.. Or if its keeping score of how many kills until they find him then the score would still be like Zodiac-38 and sfpd-1.. So again he still wins. Makes no sense honestly, so he is either giving a clue or keeping score about something else
To be honest, I dont know what to believe or where to start. But Im open to all theories...
I think whoever did this is now dead and in fact, probably died quite some time ago. An egotistical killer doesn't just stop - their self-importance and desire to be 'Someone' wouldn't let them. I have to disagree with the theories that this was perhaps 2 or 3 people (or even a cult) simply because, for me personally, it's over-complicating things - it's almost crediting the killer and I don't think whoever committed these crimes was particularly bright. My take on it is that he was probably a bit of an outcast, not very attractive, not very sporty, not very academic and certainly not very 'popular' amongst his peers (especially girls). He resented that, got tired of being un-noticed, rejected and ridiculed and took his anger out in the only way he knew how, probably by killing the girl who had humiliated him. It wouldn't surprise me if it was then that he decided he liked this, he liked this killing, he could finally be 'Someone'. Suddenly, he had power and control. Personalities like this often create an alter-ego and I think this is what happened here, hence the costume and the notes. He only got away with it because of when it occurred not because he was a great criminal-mastermind. With todays technology he'd be toast. He wasn't clever - just lucky.
John. Have you ever compared the zodiac killings to the Tex-arcana killings in 1947. Same lovers lane man in a square mask killing people on dates. If you can link a suspect and his movements in that area in the late 40s it might be eye opening
You have great points. I do think the Zodiac developed an ego about the killings and the communication to the police. Personally, I think the Lake Berryessa attack showed that his ego had grown. That was the only daylight crime and he dressed for the part. I think what he wore at Lake Berryessa was for two reasons. The first is to mask what he looks like. Kinda obvious. Second, was to create chaos in the event a victim survives. I do think the Zodiac intended to kill but I think he had to have a contingency plan in case as he would have known Mageau had survived. The Zodiac knew whatever description a survivor might give would increase the intrigue and police frustration. The Paul Stine murder, I think, was to show that he could kill outside of his 'so called' pattern. The letters after Lake Berryessa, I think, show a greater ego than the ones before.
Have you read the book called The Most Dangerous Animal of All? It makes a very compelling case that I man named Earl Van Best Jr was Zodiac. It has evidence in there and his name can be found in the ciphers. Handwriting analysis points to him too. After I read the book I felt it was him.
also have you looked in to ted Kaczynski theory? plays in with the hood and the bombs and such. its thin but interesting
Is it possible that Michael was the Zodiac Killer? He killed Darlene and made it look like he was shot too? He could have had an accomplice. His information keeps getting jumbled. And he got on tv.
So, what strikes me about that case is the incompetence of the killer. He didn't managed to kill his victims, it seems more that he got high on shooting and slicing them until they stop moving or something, instead of really just killing them, which shouldn't be that hard if the victim is already incapacitated. He fancied himself superior but is actually very pretentious, he screwed up the killings, he screwed up the ciphers and probably the second is unsolved because he ciphered it to a degree where it becomes just a random string of numbers. Also was wasn't even able to do his crosshair sign in a solid motion. In his letters he has some delusional religious ideas. This is probably the kind of guy who lived a very normal cliche live through and through and everything that let's him escape the slightest from it, he regards as special. He needs the feel of beeing special and superior, which he achieves by assaulting persons, because he has no real qualities for himself, so he probably had a very simple job, if he had one. I actually wouldn't suspect he comes clear in his deathbed and have defintive proof. I believe that he at one point grew tired of the killing and went on doing something else.
Interesting theory.
+Kröte nschemel I second that.. very interesting insight and I have a feeling you might be correct about his "ho-hum" existence in regular life.
+GeekenDorx There's another possibility we shouldn't overlook, but that's only reguarding the incident with that Michael and why he gives conflicting information. So I met a few people who tried to commit suicide and they failed, be it a friend who tried to overdose on medication, but then vomited them out while he was unconscious or, far more horrifiing a father from our neighboring village, who slit the throats of his children, then his own, however failed that as the bloodloss made him so weak that he couldn't finish the cut properly. Long story short, if you try to commit suicide and you are the active component in it, it often fails. It is possible (unless the wounds rule this out, that he himself shot his girlfriend, then himself, survived and blamed it on the Zodiac Killer, whos identity he needed to pick at random. On the other hand, he took bullet to the head, didn't he? It's also likely that he's confusing something or confabulating.
Yeah, bullet to the head and several to the body. I think the gun would have likely been found at the scene if that was the case, but it is an interesting theory.
What do you think if it wasn’t one person. There was some video I saw on RUclips, where there is some guy that believes it might’ve been a couple of people that were involved in this. I forgot the video but he was explaining the killings had to do with parallel lines matching up evenly with the killings.
Anyway my point is though I think there was more than one person involved in these killings. The first person would be the letter writer, then you had the person who would do the actual shooting, A third person might’ve had an extra car around or be another shooter just in case if their plans got messed up. I could keep speculating but my point is I do believe this was not one person I think it was a couple of people involved and they are evil.
What ,if any connection does Giakowski have with "The Mikado"? Also did the police ever interview or find this "Richard"?
John I wonder if anyone at MIT (Massachusetts Instirute of Technology) has been given the coded messages to break his code. Surely someone there would be able to figure it out. May I say John you do a great service to the public with your attention to detail in these cases.
Thumbs up 👍 for your well Presented 3 part Video keep it coming who ever cracks this case deserves a very Large Reward Kevin add on
He could vary well be dead. Maybe attempted to kill the wrong person and wound up dead himself. Never knew to put a victim or an attempted murderer that was killed with the Zodiac Killer.
This guy embarrassed the hell out of the cops. They was completely caught off guard, had no clue what to do. Several opportunities and they dropped the ball on every one!
In the zodiac movie, there is the guy, that tips the police abou Arthur Lee Allan having the zodiac watch. If he was a real guy, he did it.
I think that Darlene was his target and killing the others was just to cover/mask that. I also think that as time went on, he realised he enjoyed killing and evolved that to include taunting the police, media and SF's residents
I don't know if he would confess on a death bed, maybe he would get more "joy" out of the fact that they never caught him. Keeping them at a score of 0 saved forever
I know all I have ever learned about this dude from you so no help but good work love your stuff :) We could take a hard look and anyone strange where this took place ! oops this was San Francisco ..... Never mind :)=
+Jeff dillman LOL! Seriously.. I think that's part of the problem. The sketch looks like a regular guy, and in a population that big it's probably pretty easy for him to blend in.
Him confessing on his deathbed sounds like something he would do but maybe he died or will die suddenly, like Leigh Allen did. I personally think this will never be solved.
A have always thought why didn’t the zodiac ever mention the person who solved the cipher, a think it was the same person, Donald gene harden
not to feed conspiracy, but what about a possible connection to the Bohemian grove, if it was it could have been more than one or a single man, but in a place of power that no could feasibly touch the killer, or contaminate evidence.
what if ..the zodiac was a teen the changing the killing style seems like an impulsive and not sure what they want ..to do
the boots could be his dad's
John, had you considered Ted Kaczynski/the Unibomber in your theory? It's known he was teaching mathematics in SF at that time, and there seem to be alot of similarities. Any chance of another segment on this idea, and compairing/contrasting these two persons? Love your work!
I do know that his DNA was not a match to the Unibomber.The FBI Was able to rule Ted out even with a partial profile.A report claimed that the son of Sam was also ruled out.
He might be identified by the police, but dead by the time they identified him. On another note. A veteran wouldnt use a .22 pistol to kill if he had an option.