I actually love Armor of Agathys for just about any spellcaster, but especially melee builds like paladins or multiclass paladins. Or, for that matter, melee-adjacent spellcaster builds like clerics; I love the idea of adding AoA to Spirit Guardians. 🤣
People talk about how you are the most insightful analysis of dnd optimization. But they neglect how You have gotten progressively funnier over the years. I came for the former… and I stayed for the former too. And well, the former is definitely the best part. But I appreciate the latter too.
Personally, I'm glad that Pack Tactics was Legacy'd away, and while it does have a little to do with the power of the feature, it has way more to do with so many DMs hand-waving Sunlight Sensitivity to such a degree that it wasn't even acknowledged as a feature at the table. Like, how powerful is a negative when people don't even put it into the calculator? And it is (not was, is, since people still play Legacy Kobold) so common that DMs hand-wave Sunlight Sensitivity that players EXPECT to get that treatment at any given tablem, meaning that yeah, they essentially DO get the power of a free feat. (Let's not even get into the fact that Kobolds used to get a pretty significant penalty to their STR score before the errata, which, ultimately, didn't mean much for a small-sized race that probably wasn't using heavy weapons anyway, unless your DM was a dick that loved using Shadows.)
Frankly I think that exploit is poorly thought out, people took the sage advice "I would allow it" and decided this is the law, from a strictly rules perspective the 2 don't interact, but as a kind gm you should give them 2+ spell level extra berries. If you genuinely think each berry should heal 1+2+spell level hp I think you need to reconsider.
@@andrewgreeb916this is word for word what it says in the Sage advice compendium: "Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast good- berry with a 1st-level spell slot." That's pretty evidently not an "I would allow it". The designers are saying it straight up works.
It occurs to me that a Mark of Handling Conjurer might be the best way to make real use of that Resilient Summon feature. I enjoyed having Mark of Passage’s “Dexterity-based” spellcasting; pretty pointless, but I was able to use Dexterity as my casting stat with some magic items, which was hilarious.
I am a big fan of the Mark of Passage for paladins. One of the biggest weaknesses of the class is its lack of mobility and stealth and this race can really help with that with its 35' walking speed, a free Misty Step, plus adding Expeditious Retreat, Misty Step, Pass Without Trace and Dimension Door to their spell list.
I quite like mark of shadow for paladins. Invisibility, Pass without a trace and greater invisibility are really solid for those clunking chunks of metal.
As my family gathered around my hospital bed, I thought for sure that was going to be it, I was watching my life flash before my eyes , as it was reaching the end , I heard a ding from my phone, squinting , I saw what it was, the notification that the final racial tier list from treantmonk was out. I couldn’t die without seeing it, I had to fight back this foul disease . I had so much to live for . Im only here now because of your amazing work
My Mark of Warding Dwarf Artificer and my Mark of Hospitality Halfling Bard were two of my best character builds, honestly. Thanks for including this video and showing the oft forgotten marks some love!
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about mark of the Sentinel(by far the biggest one though,) and it could apply to other ones as well. Getting access to certain spells for classes that don't normally have access can be huge. Armor of Agathys for a paladin or eldritch knight can also be a really big boon as well (yes conquest gets AoA but it lets you get it for a different subclass.) But counterspell for a druid or cleric is bonkers good.
Omg I am DYING laughing at the "comments say these videos are objectionable not subjectable". Brilliant! 😂😂😂 Added later in vid: no I will not excuse your pun,I will laugh and love it instead 😂
the one thing that seems to be missing from this ranking is the racial feats. Like most of them are propably very seldom worth it, but the ability to pick upp Elven Accuracy or Dwarven Fortitude has to be more valueable than a tool proficieny no? Great video and series overall though! just trying to get my poor half elfs higher up : P
100% The comment about Mark Spells that are good enough to build around is on point. But the exact same should be noted with feats. The Elven Accuracy is probably the best example. But Dragon Fear is another, that combines with the updated Dragonborn to be a more powerful Frightened condition build than many casters. Bountiful Luck, Second Chance, and Squat Nimbleness might not be powerful alone, but they absolve weaknesses in a halfling, and enhance their already strong benefits. ...but also, accounting for feats would make this list ridiculously messy.
Please tell us in the key learnings if there were any builds you were inspired to ponder based on new insights regarding the power of the races you ranked.
11:00 i think you miss one VERY important thing here... the healing mark's spells are added to your class's spell list.. meaning a wizard can create scrolls out of them and they'd be wizard spell scrolls, not cleric ones.. you could sell them at a wizard's guild for a fortune
The rules don't differentiate between a "wizard scroll" and a "cleric scroll". A scroll of cure wounds is just a scroll of cure wounds, regardless of the class of the scribe.
@@TreantmonksTemple yes and no... wizards can only copy wizard spells into their spellbook. so while the scroll itself is universal, the spell on it, for purposes of adding to a spellbook, is not. and thats where my statement above comes in. healing touch and lesser restoration are obviously normally not wizard spells and thus cannot be copied into a wizard's spellbook. but for a mark of healing wizard, they are wizard spells. and so if said wizard creates a scroll of cure wounds, any other wizard can use that scroll to add it to their book because the spell on it is a wizard spell.
Your wrong about that. Unless the spell is on your spell list you can't add it to your spellbook. It's why only graviturgist and chronurgists can copy dunimancy spells into their spellbooks.
@@ATMOSK1234 "Spells of the Mark. If you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic class features, the spells on the Mark of Healing Spells table are added to the spell list of your spellcasting class." hence they are added to the wizard's spell list if the mark of healing halfling is a wizard. and since they are added to the spell list, another wizard becomes elegable to copy them. do note: it says "the spell list" and not "*your* spell list" meaning it does apply them to the class, not just the character.
😂 PLEASE Chris, PLEASE, I also NEED the rankings for the Fizban's subclasses as compared to the other 114 you ranked to fill this emptiness inside me! 🙏
I would say pass without trace and phantom steed, all though not build defining, are party defining. Pass without trace doubles you party’s offense and phantom steed doubles the party’s defense. I don’t know what else could be worth maximum points if this isn’t.
Mark of passage is once per long rest misty step, dmg eladrin in the video was shown once per short or long rest, so would say either eladrin should be higher, or passage lower points for that feature
Just so there's no regrets, sorry to ask Chris but what do you think about Volo's Aasimar? I'm specifically curious about the old radiant consumption ability, The old version that hurts players alongside the enemies. I know it's obviously worse but how much worse would it be from what you rated the radiant soul from monsters of the multiverse? Even if you don't get to this question thank you for actually going through all this, this documentation you did is amazing.
As a positive for it though, there are a chunk of spells which give you a save if you take damage, so in those highly situational points of a game, you can get another bite at the apple 😂 I never used that subclass either but I feel like it had good flavour for a zealot barbarian.
I played with it and it was character defining, in the way that the self + party damage far exceeded the damage to enemies xDD Great when you're concentrating I tell you. But I did go for the feature because of the flavor (played a fire-focused char and flavored it as being heat consuming me). All in all fun times if your table can laugh about the hundred teamdamage you inflict over a couple sessions. Funnily enough only my character survived, go Fuoca!
@@TreantmonksTemple first, you know about the damage radius so this is something you work your tactics around; no real problem. Second, damaging yourself isn't good (especially when concentrating on a spell), but you do get resistance to that damage, so create a PC that doesn't concentrate on spells. Third, it is objectively worse that it takes an action to set up. Fourth-and this is the big one-you get your full level as extra damage! Compare the old and new versions (at 20th):- Old: damage to self at the end of your turn = 5. Damage to others within 10ft = 10. Extra damage 1/round = 20 New: damage to self = 0. damage to others = 6. Extra damage 1/round = 6. Twenty is a lot more that six! From mid levels the old version does a huge amount more, despite the drawbacks. This is why I was looking forward to your rating of legacy Aasimar, and why I was disappointed not to get it. Any chance of a breakdown?
You're gonna convince me to join my first Patreon one of these days. Thank you for what you bring to this community. I really appreciate your sense of humor 😂
Hospitality Halfling is pretty fun with a Warlock. Being able to cast Aid before immediately short resting to get the slots back is a fun way to keep your party buffed up at no expense. An Undead Warlock with Death Ward can do something similar, so the right build can create the world's tankiest party.
Chris, I am 1000% here for this new cocky heel turn you've been on lately. You've been IMHO the strongest voice in the space for over a year now, and you just keep leveling up. Thank you for your service.
How in the world is Armor of Agathys not a build defining spell? Even without combining it with any other feature than full spellcasting progression, it can greatly increase the melee survival ability and damage output of any spellcaster without requiring concentration, or in-combat action economy investment, or saving throws. Even half-casters can get good value out of it (certainly a better use of higher level spell slots than most other things a Ranger could cast, with the only other good stuff likely only needing to be cast once in a given long rest). The lack of opportunity cost and strongest upcasting of any spell is incredible. Like, yeah, maybe not every character with access to the spell will use it, but it's never not beneficial to some extent if one does cast it. Even gives peace of mind about being ambushed. Plus, it's normally limited to exactly one class's spell list.
Mark of the Sentinel is also the only way of getting Warding Bond on a Druid. Warding Bond on a full class Moon Druid, or on a Moon druid with a barb dip is awesome. You become a tank that can just outfit the whole party with rings and take half of what everyone else takes (to your fake wild shape hit points), reducing that by a further half with resistance if raging. I think you also undersold the Mark of Warding Dwarf. This is an exceptional list because Armor of Agathys is normally warlock only, and especially on something like an abjuration wizard, you can build one of the best tanks in the game.
If Kobolds were Medium creatures, I’d give Pack Tactics 250 points. As it stands, I still think it’s worth 200. It’s just so good. I’m very glad they got rid of it.
Weird thing about the Mark of Storms that isn't mentioned in character creation here, in Eberron, to pilot an airship, I believe you have to have that mark. I don't know how lore-setting specific features might get points, especially since it also depends how much your GM is a stickler for lore mechanics, thats... almost like a ribbon feature that gets a huge boost immediately if your team gets access to an airship. The only race in the entire game that gets airship piloting proficiency.
I'm a little surprised that Vedalken Dispassion (advantage on all WIS/CHA/INT saves regardless of whether they are magical) is only worth 40 points, but the old satyr/yuan-ti effect (advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects) is worth 55. I kind of expected those to be about tied. There's some stuff that Vedalken Dispassion doesn't catch, but there's also some stuff the old Yuani-ti/satyr don't catch because the monster doesn't list it as being a mgical effect.
I mean, advantage on a significant portion of Str, Dex, and Con saves definitely seems worth *at least* 15 points to me. How many mental saving throws are there that aren't magical? Maybe Frightful Presence effects I suppose.
@@dylanboczar999 "advantage on a significant portion of Str, Dex, and Con saves definitely seems worth at least 15 points to me. How many mental saving throws are there that aren't magical? Maybe Frightful Presence effects I suppose." Very few of the CON/DEX/STR are listed as a "magical" effect though. I looked through a list of CR 4 monsters, and here's what I found. Banshee: two saving throws, one WIS one CON, neither one is said to be from a magical source. Chuul: a CON saving throw; it's doesn't specify magic. Couatl: one saving throw CON--it's not magical. Elephant: STR saving throw, not magical. Ghost: two saving throws, one WIS for frightened, one CHA for posession. Neither one is magical. Red Dragon Wyrmling: DEX saving throw. Not listed as magical. Succubus: One WIS save, one CON save, both considered magical. Wereboar: one STR save, one CON save, neither considered magical. Weretiger: same as wereboar. And that's all the CR4 monsters I can find with saving throws. So...by this count, Vedalken is protecting against 4 of these saving throws (one from Banshee, two from Ghost, one from Succubus), and the old version of satyr/yuan-ti is protecting against 2 saving throws (two from Succubus). I don't know if this continues with other CR enemies, but I'm guessing it does--I'm guessing there's more monster skills that hit INT, WIS, or CHA and are not listed as magical, than there are monster skills that hit CON, DEX, or STR, and are listed as magical.
If you use the legacy Kobold I feel you should use it in it’s totality, the legacy Kobold also had a -2 to Str. Why do I say this? Because all natural weapons got boosted to 1d6+Str and that wasn’t accounted for either.
I love people trying to argue objectivity with purely subjective experiences. Every time I've called out an issue with the game RAW, it's always "Well, that's not how I run it." This hobby, man...
I’m playing a legacy kobold right now. I chose it for the cower ability since it was my first time playing and that sounded fun. I didn’t know how powerful pack tactics could be 😅
I wanted the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron Warforged, IDK if it was stronger but it was definitely more interesting than the one on Rising from the Last War, though I do get that Wayfinder's never got a physical release even if it was technically official
I would be curious where legacy aasimar would be. I mean it’s a little harder to use with a action over a bonus action but the damage amount it higher at high lvls when compared to the up to date versions
So this might be a better question for the next video, but, upon seeing that certain things got more points (objectionably speaking), will we see more builds in the future that use S-tier racial options which surpass the variant human and custom linage? I am tired of knowing that in so many cases, my best choice is the generic template instead of something cool with unique mechanics. I don't blame you for that, I'm just eager to see more builds with different racial options.
I'm curious what you'd give the alternate Tieflings from Mordenkainen's. I know that they aren't too much different from the base Tiefling, but I was looking forward to possibly hearing your thoughts on them.
I’d argue that pass without trace and greater invisibility could be considered character defining spells for magically inclined stealth focused characters
Both can be great on a dexadin and since mark of shadow elfs also get access to elven accuracy, your smites will have a greater chance to blow up the opponent. (on a crit of course. People think that haste is scary on a paladin, but greater invisibility on an elven accuracy crit fisher can also be quite scary)
11:51 Aid and Goodberry are abusable with Pact Magic because of their long duration. Elfs long rest on 4 hours, sobyou cast Aid and Goodberry and tgen tak a short rest
This might have been answered in a different video but would being a fey give any more points to a race? Since there's a difference between and I'm sure that's important for some spells to affect.
A point on the Mark of Making Human. Under the assumption that you granted 3 points for the arcana d4 and 1 point for the tool d4, this should probably be granted some extra points, as it applies to all artisans tools, not just one. If 1 point was granted for every tool, that would be 17 points. I could see an argument for tools being so niche that there should be diminishing returns for all the tools, so it shouldn't get a full point for every tool, however I could also see an argument, that this feature would also apply to any and all custom tools in your game, so it should get bonus points. Maybe I am biased, as both skill and tool proficiencies are quite valuable in my games, but I feel like all the Intuition features are all way more valuable than you give them credit for.
I’ll start with three cheers for a well done series. Best Tier List NA. That said, I feel like this is the one where I disagree most. I generally wouldn’t rate the various Spells of the Mark quite so highly. Probably about half the value, around 10 points on the low end, maybe 25 on the high end, rather than the 20-50 it mostly gets. I think the fact that the ability is entirely useless for non-casters and less useful on half casters matters, and that ought to be reflected in tier score. I guess it’s a matter of approach. Is the tier list a mostly general list, how good a race is on average, or is it the absolute best case for the race? I agree with the Kenku being pretty low tier because it’s mostly not that good, but on the skill-based build that needs that advantage, it shoots up. I think it should be D-tier, while recognizing that in a niche case it might be C or B or higher. I feel the same for the Spells of the Mark, that the general score is lower even if the specialist case is higher. Can Conjure Animals be broken? Sure, but a Barbarian can never cast it, a Druid already has it. Just for myself, I’d put more weight on that fact, and knock a tier off. The whole reason there’s no F-tier is that even D-tier for races have some niche uses. But that’s what’s so great about this tier list structure. Everything is done in the open, abilities are valued at roughly the came level across the races. It makes this tier list a wonderful place to start a conversation. It’s truly been a great series.
Seems to me that the satyr being Fey should be considered as an upside. It makes the satyr immune to all sort of humanoid only effects and spells (lycanthropy, hold person etc.)
I’m trying to figure if there’s any counterspell build you could put together using the Artificer Initiate feat and one of the +1d4 to ability checks using a tool proficiency features from the Eberron races? (Using a general “you” here, counterspell builds are pretty easy to put together)
One note about the Yuan-Ti: It states in the VGtM that they lack emotions and are EVIL!. This is not only a drawback, this sucks and makes them unplayable at most tables. This is the reason why they are so powerfu! Because they don’t fit into any group, and decent people hate them and would give them a hard time, when your YT character just wanted to walk into a bar or do shopping and what not. How many minus points would this drawback be? 0? 50? 100? The same with Pac tactics. To Min-maxers this sounds like heaven. But your DM can just take it away from you, whenever they see fit just by shining a light on you... Thus, I think the above-mentioned are way overrated. However, good job! I think this is the way to go. You could apply that on classes and subclasses and spells, monsters...
I'm surprised Hunters Mark as a free spell is only worth 5 points, even at once a day. For certain martial builds that's a big boost to DPR one fight a day.
Has the video with the odd races like the grung and custom lineage come out for non patrons? you show them at the start on the tier ranking, but I can't see the video.
Could you link the previous videos in the series? I seem to be missing the one with the fizbans races and I can see they’re already on your chart here.
Spells of the Mark of Warding, I might give a few more points. You can(and I have) build an Abjuration Wizard around Armour of Agathys.
It is build specific but also build defining in this single case.
I actually love Armor of Agathys for just about any spellcaster, but especially melee builds like paladins or multiclass paladins. Or, for that matter, melee-adjacent spellcaster builds like clerics; I love the idea of adding AoA to Spirit Guardians. 🤣
Let’s you take a much more useful dip like artificer instead of warlock for the porcupine build. Plus a bunch of abjuration spells with free casting
Yes! I made a bladesinger with that, and with the dwarven combat training and AoA, it was a Bang!
And if the it’s not character defining, it’s still really really good
People talk about how you are the most insightful analysis of dnd optimization. But they neglect how You have gotten progressively funnier over the years.
I came for the former… and I stayed for the former too.
And well, the former is definitely the best part.
But I appreciate the latter too.
Chris is the Daniel Bryan/Bryan Danielson of D&D videos ;)
(You will either get this or be very confused)
Totally agree!
Personally, I'm glad that Pack Tactics was Legacy'd away, and while it does have a little to do with the power of the feature, it has way more to do with so many DMs hand-waving Sunlight Sensitivity to such a degree that it wasn't even acknowledged as a feature at the table. Like, how powerful is a negative when people don't even put it into the calculator? And it is (not was, is, since people still play Legacy Kobold) so common that DMs hand-wave Sunlight Sensitivity that players EXPECT to get that treatment at any given tablem, meaning that yeah, they essentially DO get the power of a free feat. (Let's not even get into the fact that Kobolds used to get a pretty significant penalty to their STR score before the errata, which, ultimately, didn't mean much for a small-sized race that probably wasn't using heavy weapons anyway, unless your DM was a dick that loved using Shadows.)
Mark Of Hospitality is arguably the best way to exploit the Life Cleric Goodberry from an opportunity cost perspective.
Frankly I think that exploit is poorly thought out, people took the sage advice "I would allow it" and decided this is the law, from a strictly rules perspective the 2 don't interact, but as a kind gm you should give them 2+ spell level extra berries.
If you genuinely think each berry should heal 1+2+spell level hp I think you need to reconsider.
@@andrewgreeb916this is word for word what it says in the Sage advice compendium:
"Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry
restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast good-
berry with a 1st-level spell slot."
That's pretty evidently not an "I would allow it". The designers are saying it straight up works.
It occurs to me that a Mark of Handling Conjurer might be the best way to make real use of that Resilient Summon feature.
I enjoyed having Mark of Passage’s “Dexterity-based” spellcasting; pretty pointless, but I was able to use Dexterity as my casting stat with some magic items, which was hilarious.
Two videos in one day? Miracles do happen!
14:00 The eladrin in the dungeon master guide could use misty step again in a short rest. This one is just on a long rest
Good point, I missed that.
I am a big fan of the Mark of Passage for paladins. One of the biggest weaknesses of the class is its lack of mobility and stealth and this race can really help with that with its 35' walking speed, a free Misty Step, plus adding Expeditious Retreat, Misty Step, Pass Without Trace and Dimension Door to their spell list.
I quite like mark of shadow for paladins. Invisibility, Pass without a trace and greater invisibility are really solid for those clunking chunks of metal.
As my family gathered around my hospital bed, I thought for sure that was going to be it, I was watching my life flash before my eyes , as it was reaching the end , I heard a ding from my phone, squinting , I saw what it was, the notification that the final racial tier list from treantmonk was out. I couldn’t die without seeing it, I had to fight back this foul disease . I had so much to live for . Im only here now because of your amazing work
My Mark of Warding Dwarf Artificer and my Mark of Hospitality Halfling Bard were two of my best character builds, honestly. Thanks for including this video and showing the oft forgotten marks some love!
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about mark of the Sentinel(by far the biggest one though,) and it could apply to other ones as well. Getting access to certain spells for classes that don't normally have access can be huge. Armor of Agathys for a paladin or eldritch knight can also be a really big boon as well (yes conquest gets AoA but it lets you get it for a different subclass.) But counterspell for a druid or cleric is bonkers good.
Omg I am DYING laughing at the "comments say these videos are objectionable not subjectable". Brilliant! 😂😂😂
Added later in vid: no I will not excuse your pun,I will laugh and love it instead 😂
14:26 pass without trace is 100% a build worthy spell. It is game defining. I would give it 15 points on its own
The best intro i've ever seen on Treantmonk's channel, perhaps on all of youtube :P
ik this is a 10 month old comment but he's actually so funny i was dying from the intro lol
the one thing that seems to be missing from this ranking is the racial feats. Like most of them are propably very seldom worth it, but the ability to pick upp Elven Accuracy or Dwarven Fortitude has to be more valueable than a tool proficieny no?
Great video and series overall though! just trying to get my poor half elfs higher up : P
He talked about that at the end of the other video released today.
100%
The comment about Mark Spells that are good enough to build around is on point. But the exact same should be noted with feats. The Elven Accuracy is probably the best example. But Dragon Fear is another, that combines with the updated Dragonborn to be a more powerful Frightened condition build than many casters. Bountiful Luck, Second Chance, and Squat Nimbleness might not be powerful alone, but they absolve weaknesses in a halfling, and enhance their already strong benefits.
...but also, accounting for feats would make this list ridiculously messy.
I usually skip intros. I’m really glad I didn’t.
Please tell us in the key learnings if there were any builds you were inspired to ponder based on new insights regarding the power of the races you ranked.
11:00 i think you miss one VERY important thing here... the healing mark's spells are added to your class's spell list.. meaning a wizard can create scrolls out of them and they'd be wizard spell scrolls, not cleric ones.. you could sell them at a wizard's guild for a fortune
The rules don't differentiate between a "wizard scroll" and a "cleric scroll". A scroll of cure wounds is just a scroll of cure wounds, regardless of the class of the scribe.
@@TreantmonksTemple yes and no... wizards can only copy wizard spells into their spellbook. so while the scroll itself is universal, the spell on it, for purposes of adding to a spellbook, is not. and thats where my statement above comes in. healing touch and lesser restoration are obviously normally not wizard spells and thus cannot be copied into a wizard's spellbook. but for a mark of healing wizard, they are wizard spells. and so if said wizard creates a scroll of cure wounds, any other wizard can use that scroll to add it to their book because the spell on it is a wizard spell.
Your wrong about that. Unless the spell is on your spell list you can't add it to your spellbook. It's why only graviturgist and chronurgists can copy dunimancy spells into their spellbooks.
@@ATMOSK1234 "Spells of the Mark. If you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic class features, the spells on the Mark of Healing Spells table are added to the spell list of your spellcasting class." hence they are added to the wizard's spell list if the mark of healing halfling is a wizard. and since they are added to the spell list, another wizard becomes elegable to copy them.
do note: it says "the spell list" and not "*your* spell list" meaning it does apply them to the class, not just the character.
😂 PLEASE Chris, PLEASE, I also NEED the rankings for the Fizban's subclasses as compared to the other 114 you ranked to fill this emptiness inside me! 🙏
I would say pass without trace and phantom steed, all though not build defining, are party defining. Pass without trace doubles you party’s offense and phantom steed doubles the party’s defense. I don’t know what else could be worth maximum points if this isn’t.
18:00 I have to disagree with you Chris, "Being edgy" is OBVIOUSLY an S tier level feature, 50 points AT LEAST... 😂
These videos saved my life!!!!! They call him Treantmessiah! 🙏📿
Mark of passage is once per long rest misty step, dmg eladrin in the video was shown once per short or long rest, so would say either eladrin should be higher, or passage lower points for that feature
Just so there's no regrets, sorry to ask Chris but what do you think about Volo's Aasimar?
I'm specifically curious about the old radiant consumption ability, The old version that hurts players alongside the enemies. I know it's obviously worse but how much worse would it be from what you rated the radiant soul from monsters of the multiverse?
Even if you don't get to this question thank you for actually going through all this, this documentation you did is amazing.
I always avoided radiant soul, that doing damage to everyone seemed awful. I'm not sure how many points I would give it. Maybe 0?
As a positive for it though, there are a chunk of spells which give you a save if you take damage, so in those highly situational points of a game, you can get another bite at the apple 😂 I never used that subclass either but I feel like it had good flavour for a zealot barbarian.
I played with it and it was character defining, in the way that the self + party damage far exceeded the damage to enemies xDD
Great when you're concentrating I tell you. But I did go for the feature because of the flavor (played a fire-focused char and flavored it as being heat consuming me).
All in all fun times if your table can laugh about the hundred teamdamage you inflict over a couple sessions. Funnily enough only my character survived, go Fuoca!
@@TreantmonksTemple first, you know about the damage radius so this is something you work your tactics around; no real problem.
Second, damaging yourself isn't good (especially when concentrating on a spell), but you do get resistance to that damage, so create a PC that doesn't concentrate on spells.
Third, it is objectively worse that it takes an action to set up.
Fourth-and this is the big one-you get your full level as extra damage! Compare the old and new versions (at 20th):-
Old: damage to self at the end of your turn = 5. Damage to others within 10ft = 10. Extra damage 1/round = 20
New: damage to self = 0. damage to others = 6. Extra damage 1/round = 6.
Twenty is a lot more that six! From mid levels the old version does a huge amount more, despite the drawbacks. This is why I was looking forward to your rating of legacy Aasimar, and why I was disappointed not to get it.
Any chance of a breakdown?
I'd say the healing list for non-healing casters is huge. It plugs one of the major holes in the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
Magical Passage is once per long rest, while eladrin is once per short or long rest. So the mark of passage one should get less points.
You're gonna convince me to join my first Patreon one of these days. Thank you for what you bring to this community. I really appreciate your sense of humor 😂
Hospitality Halfling is pretty fun with a Warlock. Being able to cast Aid before immediately short resting to get the slots back is a fun way to keep your party buffed up at no expense. An Undead Warlock with Death Ward can do something similar, so the right build can create the world's tankiest party.
I'm not sure what sparked these new intros, but they have changed my life 😂😂
Chris, I am 1000% here for this new cocky heel turn you've been on lately. You've been IMHO the strongest voice in the space for over a year now, and you just keep leveling up. Thank you for your service.
Nice to know the healing halflings would eventually prevail in the struggle of dragonmarked houses
I love double video drop days! Highly approve more of this please Chris =)
How in the world is Armor of Agathys not a build defining spell? Even without combining it with any other feature than full spellcasting progression, it can greatly increase the melee survival ability and damage output of any spellcaster without requiring concentration, or in-combat action economy investment, or saving throws. Even half-casters can get good value out of it (certainly a better use of higher level spell slots than most other things a Ranger could cast, with the only other good stuff likely only needing to be cast once in a given long rest). The lack of opportunity cost and strongest upcasting of any spell is incredible. Like, yeah, maybe not every character with access to the spell will use it, but it's never not beneficial to some extent if one does cast it. Even gives peace of mind about being ambushed. Plus, it's normally limited to exactly one class's spell list.
Animal friendship on a tarrasque is an interesting encounter. Survive, blast through its legendary resistances, then make it your pet.
The tarrasque is not a beast though?
The mark of handling let's you use animal friendship on monstrosities
Mark of the Sentinel is also the only way of getting Warding Bond on a Druid. Warding Bond on a full class Moon Druid, or on a Moon druid with a barb dip is awesome. You become a tank that can just outfit the whole party with rings and take half of what everyone else takes (to your fake wild shape hit points), reducing that by a further half with resistance if raging.
I think you also undersold the Mark of Warding Dwarf. This is an exceptional list because Armor of Agathys is normally warlock only, and especially on something like an abjuration wizard, you can build one of the best tanks in the game.
Great work!
Thanks a lot!
This is a great series even if I would assign some different values as our game is less combat focused.
If Kobolds were Medium creatures, I’d give Pack Tactics 250 points. As it stands, I still think it’s worth 200. It’s just so good.
I’m very glad they got rid of it.
Your humor has truly shined in this series.
I just had a trident gum add pop up directly after Chris said “tied with the Triton”
Weird thing about the Mark of Storms that isn't mentioned in character creation here, in Eberron, to pilot an airship, I believe you have to have that mark. I don't know how lore-setting specific features might get points, especially since it also depends how much your GM is a stickler for lore mechanics, thats... almost like a ribbon feature that gets a huge boost immediately if your team gets access to an airship. The only race in the entire game that gets airship piloting proficiency.
Legacy Aarakocra Monk: "I am speed!"
I love the trend of hyper-confident intro since April Fools. It’s objectively perfect.
This was, in my objective opinion, the greatest intro to any tier ranking video ever
Lol that objectionable joke was funny. Good stuff.
I'm a little surprised that Vedalken Dispassion (advantage on all WIS/CHA/INT saves regardless of whether they are magical) is only worth 40 points, but the old satyr/yuan-ti effect (advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects) is worth 55.
I kind of expected those to be about tied.
There's some stuff that Vedalken Dispassion doesn't catch, but there's also some stuff the old Yuani-ti/satyr don't catch because the monster doesn't list it as being a mgical effect.
I mean, advantage on a significant portion of Str, Dex, and Con saves definitely seems worth *at least* 15 points to me. How many mental saving throws are there that aren't magical? Maybe Frightful Presence effects I suppose.
@@dylanboczar999 "advantage on a significant portion of Str, Dex, and Con saves definitely seems worth at least 15 points to me. How many mental saving throws are there that aren't magical? Maybe Frightful Presence effects I suppose."
Very few of the CON/DEX/STR are listed as a "magical" effect though.
I looked through a list of CR 4 monsters, and here's what I found.
Banshee: two saving throws, one WIS one CON, neither one is said to be from a magical source.
Chuul: a CON saving throw; it's doesn't specify magic.
Couatl: one saving throw CON--it's not magical.
Elephant: STR saving throw, not magical.
Ghost: two saving throws, one WIS for frightened, one CHA for posession. Neither one is magical.
Red Dragon Wyrmling: DEX saving throw. Not listed as magical.
Succubus: One WIS save, one CON save, both considered magical.
Wereboar: one STR save, one CON save, neither considered magical.
Weretiger: same as wereboar.
And that's all the CR4 monsters I can find with saving throws.
So...by this count, Vedalken is protecting against 4 of these saving throws (one from Banshee, two from Ghost, one from Succubus), and the old version of satyr/yuan-ti is protecting against 2 saving throws (two from Succubus).
I don't know if this continues with other CR enemies, but I'm guessing it does--I'm guessing there's more monster skills that hit INT, WIS, or CHA and are not listed as magical, than there are monster skills that hit CON, DEX, or STR, and are listed as magical.
21:13 you don’t know what I want, I’m here exclusively for the Eberron stuff, the rest is a bonus.
The bit in the beginning is completely factual, not signing up to Treantmonk's Patreon destroyed my marriage.
If you use the legacy Kobold I feel you should use it in it’s totality, the legacy Kobold also had a -2 to Str.
Why do I say this? Because all natural weapons got boosted to 1d6+Str and that wasn’t accounted for either.
Legacy gnomes demand an errata! They have the old magic resistance feature! 😊
Your intro is really hilarious.
I love people trying to argue objectivity with purely subjective experiences. Every time I've called out an issue with the game RAW, it's always "Well, that's not how I run it." This hobby, man...
You missed the legacy warforged from "Wayfinders Guide to Eberron"
I _am_ very entertained, thank you.
Mark of healing wizard with healing word as their first level spell mastery for unlimited bonus action healing?
I’m playing a legacy kobold right now. I chose it for the cower ability since it was my first time playing and that sounded fun. I didn’t know how powerful pack tactics could be 😅
I wanted the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron Warforged, IDK if it was stronger but it was definitely more interesting than the one on Rising from the Last War, though I do get that Wayfinder's never got a physical release even if it was technically official
I would be curious where legacy aasimar would be. I mean it’s a little harder to use with a action over a bonus action but the damage amount it higher at high lvls when compared to the up to date versions
So this might be a better question for the next video, but, upon seeing that certain things got more points (objectionably speaking), will we see more builds in the future that use S-tier racial options which surpass the variant human and custom linage? I am tired of knowing that in so many cases, my best choice is the generic template instead of something cool with unique mechanics. I don't blame you for that, I'm just eager to see more builds with different racial options.
Hey treantmonk, what’s your opinion on buying barding for moon Druids and polymorph, and summons and stuff? Perhaps worth a video discussing?
Thanks Chris
I'm curious what you'd give the alternate Tieflings from Mordenkainen's. I know that they aren't too much different from the base Tiefling, but I was looking forward to possibly hearing your thoughts on them.
Imagine going through all 8 Infernal Legacy Tiefling bloodlines.
Mark Of Sentinel Eldritch Knight would be super fun to play.
i feel like Mark Of Warding Arcane Trickster would be S tier in the heist anthology/campaign.
also some fun synergy with Abjuration Wizard abilities.
Can definitely tell Chris doesn't make much use of tool proficiencies at his table
If a race gives you Hex or Hunter's mark, then that's a great race for a fighter or Monk
Mark Of Passage Arcane Trickster would be the most rougeish rogue. iconic ninja build.
Thank you, Chris, for saving my relationship with my significant other.
@Treantmonk's Temple what about the orc from wildmount ?
I’d argue that pass without trace and greater invisibility could be considered character defining spells for magically inclined stealth focused characters
Both can be great on a dexadin and since mark of shadow elfs also get access to elven accuracy, your smites will have a greater chance to blow up the opponent. (on a crit of course. People think that haste is scary on a paladin, but greater invisibility on an elven accuracy crit fisher can also be quite scary)
11:51 Aid and Goodberry are abusable with Pact Magic because of their long duration. Elfs long rest on 4 hours, sobyou cast Aid and Goodberry and tgen tak a short rest
All I know is my marriage was definitely saved when I became a patron.
This might have been answered in a different video but would being a fey give any more points to a race? Since there's a difference between and I'm sure that's important for some spells to affect.
A point on the Mark of Making Human.
Under the assumption that you granted 3 points for the arcana d4 and 1 point for the tool d4, this should probably be granted some extra points, as it applies to all artisans tools, not just one. If 1 point was granted for every tool, that would be 17 points. I could see an argument for tools being so niche that there should be diminishing returns for all the tools, so it shouldn't get a full point for every tool, however I could also see an argument, that this feature would also apply to any and all custom tools in your game, so it should get bonus points.
Maybe I am biased, as both skill and tool proficiencies are quite valuable in my games, but I feel like all the Intuition features are all way more valuable than you give them credit for.
The subjective vs objectionable joke was gold
why is this older than the final part on youtube?? why am i only seeing this on your channel now?? what???
I’ll start with three cheers for a well done series. Best Tier List NA.
That said, I feel like this is the one where I disagree most. I generally wouldn’t rate the various Spells of the Mark quite so highly. Probably about half the value, around 10 points on the low end, maybe 25 on the high end, rather than the 20-50 it mostly gets. I think the fact that the ability is entirely useless for non-casters and less useful on half casters matters, and that ought to be reflected in tier score.
I guess it’s a matter of approach. Is the tier list a mostly general list, how good a race is on average, or is it the absolute best case for the race? I agree with the Kenku being pretty low tier because it’s mostly not that good, but on the skill-based build that needs that advantage, it shoots up. I think it should be D-tier, while recognizing that in a niche case it might be C or B or higher. I feel the same for the Spells of the Mark, that the general score is lower even if the specialist case is higher. Can Conjure Animals be broken? Sure, but a Barbarian can never cast it, a Druid already has it. Just for myself, I’d put more weight on that fact, and knock a tier off. The whole reason there’s no F-tier is that even D-tier for races have some niche uses.
But that’s what’s so great about this tier list structure. Everything is done in the open, abilities are valued at roughly the came level across the races. It makes this tier list a wonderful place to start a conversation. It’s truly been a great series.
A minor quibble, being "edgy" is worth at least 1 point.
Seems to me that the satyr being Fey should be considered as an upside. It makes the satyr immune to all sort of humanoid only effects and spells (lycanthropy, hold person etc.)
I was always under the impression that dragonmarks were broken.
I’m trying to figure if there’s any counterspell build you could put together using the Artificer Initiate feat and one of the +1d4 to ability checks using a tool proficiency features from the Eberron races? (Using a general “you” here, counterspell builds are pretty easy to put together)
One note about the Yuan-Ti: It states in the VGtM that they lack emotions and are EVIL!. This is not only a drawback, this sucks and makes them unplayable at most tables. This is the reason why they are so powerfu! Because they don’t fit into any group, and decent people hate them and would give them a hard time, when your YT character just wanted to walk into a bar or do shopping and what not. How many minus points would this drawback be? 0? 50? 100?
The same with Pac tactics. To Min-maxers this sounds like heaven. But your DM can just take it away from you, whenever they see fit just by shining a light on you... Thus, I think the above-mentioned are way overrated.
However, good job! I think this is the way to go. You could apply that on classes and subclasses and spells, monsters...
Hmm, Chris, does the Satyr being Fey rather than a Humanoid did not add or subtract anything?
Upvote for the objective pun alone! (^__^)
Someone is definitely using this all to make a 'balanced' version where the range is much higher.
Did you do Warforged? I forget.
I'm surprised Hunters Mark as a free spell is only worth 5 points, even at once a day. For certain martial builds that's a big boost to DPR one fight a day.
Tell us about the special magic mouth tech!!
STILL ABSOLUTELY PERFECT XD
Thank you.
Try a Mark of Hospitality Halfling Life Cleric, Life berry powerful.
Has the video with the odd races like the grung and custom lineage come out for non patrons? you show them at the start on the tier ranking, but I can't see the video.
It shows on the channel for me as having been up for about 15 min
@@atingley0913 oh right he just posted it, a bit strange that they come out in the wrong order.
@@luka2784 I released this one today by mistake, it was supposed to be released on Monday.
@@TreantmonksTemple I'm never going to turn down two treantmonk videos in one day!
Glad volobold gets the tier it deserves.
Oh boy. 2024 rules with the mark of warding elf. Anyone can get conjure minor elemental...
Could you link the previous videos in the series? I seem to be missing the one with the fizbans races and I can see they’re already on your chart here.
i think hospitality should be better, bc you can cast aid with arlock spellslots and take a shortrest
It's a good time to be alive. XD
But legacy lizardfolk can make weapons from their enemies' bones!! Easy S Tier
do the human marks still get a free feat ?
I wanted the legacy Tieflings