You don't know how Wild Shape works in D&D 5e (and neither do I)
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
2:45 Beasts you've seen before
5:14 Moon Druids
7:08 Your "normal form"
8:58 Proficiencies
13:23 Carry over damage and Hit Dice
15:48 Spells and actions of spells
17:30 Non-worn Equipment
18:35 Physically capable of doing so
22:08 Results of research
23:58 A dirty trick
25:23 Conclusion
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Xanathar's has a list of suggested beasts the druid has probably seen, based on the terrain they are from. I find that list very handy for determining the beasts.
I was going to say this. Xanathar's fixed a lot of things people complain about.
I use that too!
What if I have the far traveler background and my backstory is all about me travel to and from many distant lands. Do I get the recommended forms for all of those terrains?
@@booleanillogical4757 Ask your DM. I'd probably give you all the CR 0-1/2 forms from those biomes since they are more commonly encountered, but you'd have to roll for CR 1+ forms since you haven't spent the time to really get to know the land.
I love how 12th level druid wild shaping into an owl can't cast spells at all, including ones granted by an item but a familiar owl holding a dagger can use Ring of Spellstoring to cast Steel Wind Strike.
A familiar is not a beast .. it's a Celestial, Fey or Fiend ... We might have to look at Centaurs, Hexbloods, and Satyrs ...
@@davidioanhedges I fail to see which part of that has anything to do with casting spells through magic items.
If you insist on having the example limited to just beasts you can dominate or charm a random owl and tell it to use its action to cast the spell stored in the ring.
@@IsshTM It specifically says when wildshaped you *cannot* cast spells, you just can't - even via magic items - no reason given - specific beats general
A familiar is not a beast .. it's not wildshaped - so if it says it can, it can ...
@@davidioanhedges What point do you think you're arguing here, and who do you think is disagreeing with you?
@David Hedges what are you trying to say?
Imagine saying that you can Wildshape into a dinosaur because you _see_ dinosaurs in your dreams...
I could see a druid having a dream trance with the spirit of a beast and gaining the ability to assume its form. But that seems like an opportunity to roleplay instead of handwaving it.
@@momqabt Daydreams.
No. "What you saw before" means that the creature actually exist in your DM world. The dinosaur you dream about might not be existing in DM's world.
If that worked then I could make up my own beast to change into just cause. (I've had dreams of weird animals before, flies bigger than my body, cats with snake heads, etc,)
@@momqabt elves dream of past lives across the multiverse, so they'd actually make more sense
Polymorph spell helps with "seen before" part, turn you party member into animal you need during a rest, done. And you get it at level 7, just before flying forms.
Don't you need to see a creature polymorph someone into it?
@@yunusahmed2940 Polymorph says nothing about having to had seen the targets new form before in order to do the transformation.
@@TimeOfSin
Why does one require that any the other doesn't? That's just inconsistent.
Doesn't make a whole Lotta sense hoe you can change someone's form into something you've never seen before like a Githyanki
@@yunusahmed2940 I agree, I simply meant that Wild Shape explicitly calls out the need to have seen what you transform into, but Polymorph doesnt.
@@TimeOfSin
I don't understand the design philosophy of this game sometimes
Wild shape is in the uncomfortable "how does this work?" valley connecting the castles of magic where players tacitally agree to handwave everything and the slums of martial classes where someone at the table is an expert on brigantine armor and why studded leather is a myth, so all actions must make sense in the physics of our universe or some other such hullabaloo.
Don't believe me? Next game, bring a picture of your Druid with a metal-banded circular shield and watch that one guy's head explode. :)
Treantmonk, The proficiency bonus per CR is a chart in the MM P. 8
in addition the Druid wild shape CR's usually have a prof. bonus of +2, with the exeption of the moon druids Elemental form, and their animal form past lvl 14!!
And seeing that you're using Beast forms of a specific CR, it should be easy to remember your Prof bonus from that chart of monster CRs.
It should be in the stat block
I was surprised this came up at all, but I would always use player proficiency bonus, never the beast. They retain all of their mental stats anyways, it should be significantly different than polymorph. Also using information not available to the player to calculate player modifiers does not make sense to me.
Fringe case, but I think the "revert to normal form at zero hit points" specification is important for things like zealot barb, who stays up even after hitting zero. So, if you didn't have that somewhat redundant line, you could argue that a zealot bar-bear-ian could maintain wild shape past zero hp because hitting that threshold wouldn't render you (in that form) unconscious, thus not ending the effect. I feel like this would be a bit of a hard sell to make, but that added line makes sure both cases are covered, should one happen without the other…
Half Orc Druid Wildshaped... do you get the racial benefit? Is that part of the anatomy?
@@the_algorithm you… should? Probably. Since the relentless endurance feature says "when you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead." At no point does that reference a specific biological feature, so it fits under the fleet argument…
Would be easier to argue that you just can't rage in wild shape.
concentration on spells is probably the most common case where that one comes up, since going unconscious even briefly would break it if the transformation at zero didn't occur to trigger the "aren't knocked unconscious" clause
The rules you were missing for the Brown Bear proficiency bonus are on page 8 of the Monster Manual. Specifically the table "Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating". They list the proficiency bonus for a CR 1 creature as +2.
That's not it's statblock though
@@adamkaris yes it is. Challenge rating is in the stat block.
"D&D and other RPG talk." Gotta say I'm excited for the future content.
Imagine Treantmonk doing character build videos in a system like Pathfinder 2e where you actually have important choices to make past 3rd level! Big hype.
Dhampir's Vampiric bite is one of my favorite examples here. Does the "Fanged" bite imply anatomy? Well what if i transform into a giant bat or another creature that has fangs?
what are fangs?
pretty sure all mamals have "fangs" called canine teeth
@@harrysarsooh god
vampire whales
@@deProfundisAdAstra not sure balleens count as theeth, but the others sure do orca/sperm whale
@@harrysarso Vampiric Killer whale is go!!!
@@deProfundisAdAstra You mad genius! It's beautiful!!!
How does Wild Shape work?
Magic... it's mostly magic.
The idea that there’s any non-magic part of Wild Shape is kind of scary.
It is not a spell though and can't be dispelled
@@joelsasmad I don't think that's weirder than the fact that sometimes monsters cast spells that can be counter spelled/dispelled and sometimes monsters use abilities that are identical to spells and can't be counter spelled/dispelled.
I think the designers made a mistake referencing actual beast stat blocks. If they'd used a generic template instead, as they've done for many summoned creatures in recent releases, and left the narrative descriptions up to the player, then getting rid of ambiguity would be much easier. You'd get X, y, or z options that grant clearly defined benefits. Some would scale naturally as you level. Others would only improve with class or subclass features.
No muss, no fuss.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see this addressed in the playtest
PF2 does something like this, actually.
They could let you just grab some powers (according to level) like darkvision, water breathing, other speeds, natural attacks, and so on. Then have those on top of your normal characteristics maybe with some bonus (or maybe making specific stats some powers, like having a strenght of 16 being one option) and just going with that.
13thAge does the same stunt: Fixed stats plus flavour. It works perfectly smooth. 😌👍
Druid versatility would drop significantly though. I had a whole document on which forms had blindsight, multiattack, different damage types, resistances, climb/fly/swim speeds, proficiencies, AC/HP, etc (my character had access to mage armor, so I also included moster dex bonus)
In defense of the Dragonborn's breath weapon, that's at least partly due to their magical heritage, and breath weapons CAN be used by creatures that don't innately have them provided magic is at play, and according to Crawford can even be used by creatures that ordinarily can't attack. So if you want to dust off Xanathar'sGuide and use the Dragon's Breath spell as a reference, then enjoy the power of the lightning-breathing squirrel in your group.
...Note to Self: Make a Dragonborn Druid with the name Thunder-Squirrel...
Fizban's gem dragonborns are the best race for moon druid: 30ft telepathy, great breath weapon damage types and concentration-free wings-free flight with hover at level 5.
A wizard in my group makes daily use of Twinspelling Dragons Breath on two rats they control, creating huge areas of damage every turn that use hardly any of their own action economy. It’s quite something
@@jaredcarter1165 _"Ahem. _*_BREAKUS ECONOMITUS!"_*
@@jaredcarter1165 iirc, you're not supposed to be able to twin that spell. But the idea of two rat flamethrowers is very entertaining
@@DevourerDragons well the spell targets just one creature (the rat), so it’s technically a buff just like haste
It's all quite simple: Wild Shape was designed only thinking about the concept that should be achieved, and nobody thought of all the implications the rules have. Over the years, more and more problems became obvious which would have been clear from the start if you thought about it, but now it's already in general use
That kind of applies to a lot of things in 5e :D.
Your "Don't ask your DM this. . ." section was very funny, Chris!
10:19 I think you’re misreading the 2nd sentence. If we just take the second sentence alone it states:
“If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the BONUS in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours”
And here’s the thing to keep in mind, ability modifies are not considered bonuses.
Rules for an ability check:
“To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC.”
Rules for saving throws:
“To make a saving throw, roll a d20 and add the appropriate ability modifier… As with skill proficiencies, proficiency in a saving throw lets a character add his or her proficiency bonus to saving throws made using a particular ability score.”
In both of these examples bonuses are added after your ability modifier, so bonus in wild shape’s case must be referring specifically to proficiency bonus, it’s not referring to the total you add to the roll.
And if we read the part after the comma:
“use the creature’s bonus INSTEAD of yours”
Which would mean that normally you use your own proficiency bonus, but if the creature has a higher proficiency bonus then you use the creature’s proficiency bonus instead. So in your bear example a Druid with proficiency in dex saving throws would just add their proficiency bonus since the bear’s dex modifier is +0.
Plasmoids make a fun wild shape druid. they can use Amorphous RAW without any issues at all. And a huge sized snake being able to go through a tiny crack is hilarious. And it makes sense thematically because your a shapeshifting ooze.
These in depth analysis of specific wording is a crazy exercise in willfully taking the wording and making it confusing. It blows my mind to hear some of these interpretations that no one (or hardly anyone) would ever think it ment
Somewhere in the monster manual there is a table of prof bonus by challenge rating
Fleet of Foot I would rule that the racial ability makes the wood elf 5' faster than a regular elf's 30' movement. They are slightly faster than normal - this is the actual trait "Your base walking speed increases to 35 feet" could just as easily have been written you have +5' to an elf's base movement speed. I would apply the same to the wild shape so a snail with a move of 5' would become a faster snail with a move of 10'. I would even allow this to apply to a horse even though they have a 60' move the fleet of foot is a racial feat that makes you slightly faster than normal so the wild shaped horse would have a speed of 65'. Tritons, Merman etc need gills to breathe under water, the wild shape must have gills to breath under water I wouldn't care that the race does not specify that the breathe under water is because of gills it just makes sense.
I would too, that makes more sense
@@TreantmonksTemple I still think that mental stats bleed over, physical and senses don't ... What mental ability means you can move faster as a snail?
That's how I would write the rule. As soon as treant mentioned keeping the abilities of your race I immediately thought of woodelf because of how its worded
Isn't the movement speed in itself a racial trait? Halfling druids would then always have a 25 feet movement speed.
@@davidioanhedges "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." Moving faster is a feature of the wood elf race so the wild shape creature gains the same benefit as long as they are physically capable. So as long as a creature has a movement speed it can use this racial feature.
Hurray for Tasha's optional rules and subclasses! It has always boggled my mind that Druids, which are all nature themed, didn't have a reliable way to have little pets and friends to do stuff with. Find Familiar just feels right to have as a Druid. Also as someone who has played a Wildfire Druid, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've actually used wildshape to turn into an animal even at level 12. Tracking down stats and looking at the rules for it are nine kinds of confusing - so much more simple to summon your Wildfire Spirit and be done with it.
A Familiar is not an Animal -- it's specifically a Celestial, Fey or Fiend "wildshaped" into animal form - so kinship...
Yeah ik that's all detailed in the spell but its not a big deal to say "Hey this is an owl that's my friend I found in the forest" instead of "This is some weird celestial creature shaped into an animal". 🙄
@@davidioanhedges wich leads to another bit of contradiction, since you can change the shape of your familiar but the beeing stays the same shouldn´t mental stats be staying the same?
Never liked how wild shape gives you a bunch of hit points and transforms your equipment as well...I know it's for mechanical reasons, but for flavor, it makes the wild shape form a separate entity than the druid rather than being one with the animal form, if that makes sense. I like the idea of a wild shape bear covered with arrows and slash wounds transforming back and still covered with wounds they sustained during the fight
You can flavor it this way. But mechanicly if you share hp with wild shape- caster with d8 hit dice and poor AC wont sustain any wounds in any form.
Decent fix for that is to simply give the beast hp as temp hp
@@none-of-your-busi-ness you don't need to "fix" the least played class in the game
@@user-ni7ji3fb8m PF1e druid solves this by having wild shape give a ton of stat buffs. +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 AC, that sort of thing. And then there's Shifter, a class dedicated to being Really Good at wildshape while having no spellcasting. They lose their armour AC while wildshaped, like a druid does, but they have monk unarmoured defence that stacks with the natural armour they get from their wildshaped form.
(Also PF1e enemies just do less damage.)
@@user-ni7ji3fb8m The way your comment it's worded makes it seem the class doesn't deserve attention just because it isn't particularly popular. If that's the case, then it's pretty silly way of looking at it.
I suddenly want to play a fire breathing snail
On the proficiency bonuses, one that always confused me was, "how is the DC of the Elephant's trampling change calculated?" If you look at the Mammoth, it looks like 8+STR Mod+Prof, which adds to the DC 18 listed for its trampling charge. But the Elephant, with a +2 Proficiency and +6 STR bonus, only has a DC 12 trampling charge.
This isn't the only one where DCs aren't clear on how they're calculated, but the big difference between the Elephant and the Mammoth is especially weird. I can't even say it's just based on the Challenge rating, because those aren't consistent from creature to creature within a given CR.
Some of them are just plain wrong... some have been corrected ... some haven't
Mammoth attack is +10 - Str +7 - so Prof is +3 - 8+Prof+Str = 18 - DC 18
Elephant attack is +8 - Str +6 - so Prof is +2 - 8+Prof+Str = 16 - DC 12
Is there another ability score that could have been used for trampling charge, like Con?
@FlameUser64 that math doesn't work out, either. +3 for the Elephant, +5 for the Mammoth, meaning with their proficiency bonus there'd only be a three point difference in DCs, not a six point difference.
As a DM, these oddities are fine. But playing a Moon Druid, you start to notice and wonder...
@@deltavictor8369 Oh I meant that the Mammoth's was calculated with Str while the Elephant's was calculated with Con.
@@FlameUser64 considering that the elephant's con is +3, probably not.
Page 8 of the Monster Manual has a chart for Proficiency Bonus by Challenge rating. It's another page to flip to, but it is there (in my copy at least).
I commented the same thing and then scrolled through the comments to see if I’m not the only weirdo that knows of this table haha
Wildshaped Kenkus can functionally both speak and write using their Mimicry and Expert Forgery features.
On a less silly note, one could argue that Tieflings likely get fire resistance for magical reasons rather than for anatomical reasons.
I had in fact always dreamed of running a warforged druid who was Dinobot
Love this series! Very timely for me! Just started playing a Monk 1/ Moon Druid x in a home brew campaign going to level 13. Playing a Druid is so much fun. So many ways to customize the class.
I like that the feature itself has to specify anatomy. It just makes reflavoring easier if all that I have to consider mechanically is the wording of the feature, as opposed to an extrapolation of the feature.
Great video and explanation!
When it comes to, “Which animals can a Druid Wild Shape into?” don’t forget that Druids can cast Conjure Animals at 5th level and Polymorph on a friend at 7th level. Both of those spells can let them see a Beast that they haven’t previously seen.
Technically speaking, Conjure Animals summons fey spirits that take the form of beasts. You've technically only seen the spirits. Just like how seeing a picture of a beast wouldn't let you wild shape into it, since you haven't seen the beast itself. I think Polymorph would work though since it says "The target's game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." Personally I think I would rule CA and Poly as having seen the beasts, but I've played with a few DMs who would absolutely reject that.
@@pgd5000 Considering that the DM picks what you summon with Conjure Animals instead of the player, this isn’t much of an issue. The DM can legitimately limit what you see when you use Conjure Animals that way anyway. When I played a Moon Druid my DM had me roll to see what I summoned though which I thought was fair.
It works how every other other lazily written rule in this system works: "lol, idk, it's your table, you do you. more money plz"
I appreciate the Nurse pic coming in for "difficulty rising!"
The proficiency bonus table is listed in the original Monster's Manual on page 8. It is based on CR and is identical to the one for players levels. For Brown Bear it's CR +2
My favorite example of "physically capable of doing so" is squirrels breathing fire because the original dragonborn druid could, and bears being fire resistant because the original tiefling druid was. I'm pretty generous with those things myself.
Great video! I ran into the unintuitive PB for creatures thing when I created a warlock that used magic stone + investment of the chain master to have a familiar throw stones. Magic stone's attack combines the casters ability score modifier and the creatures PB, but familiars' forms PB's werent listed on their statblocks.
Great timing, literally started a campaign last week in which I plan to play a wild shape druid
Hi Christ! Awesome content, as always. Do you think that in the Dragonlance setting, and Wild Shaped Druid with the feat Adept of the Black Robes could actually use Life Channel using the form hit dices? For example, round 1 you cast Call Lightning, Round 2 Wild Shape, Round 3 add 3d10 damages to the creature as you use your action to use the ongoing effect? (Or whatever spell that have a nice effect, poor damage that become pretty good with the added dices?)
That dirty trick segment got me laughing 🤣, I know you said not to do it but I'm so tempted...
Fleet of Foot mentions anatomy in the name of the feature, so. No elf foot, no elf move.
thank you for keeping the stellar DnD content coming!
yeah I get the "hand off"/"use common sense" design in theory, staying out of the DM and letting them decide want works for them, but that also puts the onus of balancing on the DM too.
especially in a game that is mainly hard rules too.
I got into a lot of difficulties with proficiency bonus on my wild shape build video, interested to hear your thoughts on this!
As usual, I appreciate you pointing out the inconsistencies in the rules. The bigger question is whether the inconsistencies can be fixed without creating a rules-dense and inflexible system. My suspicion is that playability and clarity stop working together at some point, and it's the duty of the players and GM to hash it out at the table starting with Session 0.
Did I just punt? Yeah, kind of. But I've played in heavy rules sets before, and they always boil down to the person with more system mastery and stubbornness getting their way. I'd rather deal with these things as they come up. It leaves more room for the Rule of Cool too. It's much easier to say, "I'm not sure, but it sounds awesome so go ahead this time," than to say, "that's against these two rules, but I'll allow it."
I've never thought about any of this before and I'm not gonna lose sleep over it now. It's all seemed fairly straightforward to me about how it works. Like the creature you've seen before. If I'm playing a druid when I come up with my backstory the DM and I will discuss where I grew up and pick a list of animals I can wild shape into because of it. I love the videos but sometimes it feels like there is some pretty impressive reach to make something basic seem complex or not well described from the optimize community.
Cool idea is armorer artificer + moon druid. Since the armor expands to cover your form, a generous reading of the rules might let you continue wearing your magic armor during wildshape.
druids refuse to use armor so by raw it doesnt work and the armor is still worn by you so it would merge with the form like anything else
@@finalfantasy50 they refuse to use metal armour. Your articifer armour could be made from leather or wood or something.
Awesome idea! And you could still use the lightning attack for example.
And don't forget about the Grung's "Standing Leap" ability. Any animal you wild shape into could automatically leap up to 25 feet forward or 15 feet high... Thanks for pointing this out!
Leaping Brown Bear! However, if you are wildshaped into a brown bear, do you still need to immerse yourself in water to avoid exhaustion? Between two uses of wildshape per short rest, you could easily be in wildshape 24hrs a day before level 12.
As a DM, I wish players would never learn about rules, and just let me tell you what works and doesn’t lmao. I would NEVER allow this to work.
@GROOVEGNOME haha, totally understandable. However, I must ask, which is more realistic to us: a brown bear that can leap or a human that can shape-shift into a bear? If we are playing a fantasy game, why not embrace the creative ridiculousness.
Balance wise, a leaping brown bear has nothing on half the uncommon magic items or numerous other game features obtained by 5th level.
@@Argosodyssey even better, turn into an ant and leap 25 feet.
I think as GM I would allow these unusual interactions or not depending on caster preference at time of casting. So a bear with hills or leaping legs could exist and use them, but wouldn’t pass as a normal bear to an observer.
The "that you've seen before" mechanics has been a depending on where you're from or you have traveled you have a list of animals you have seen. If there is an animal you haven't seen but would like to wild shape into, I treat this like role-playing opportunities or rewards for the player as I, the DM, would know what you would like to transform into, but this is given to you similarly to say a magical item for another class.
The first couple pages of the Monster Manual has a graph that relates challenge rating to the proficiency bonus of the monster.
A point on the last part about physical capability. The autognome's Creature Type feature does not specify any anatomy either, it just says you are a construct. So in this interpretation any autognome druid is always a construct. I would probably let myself be persuaded to let someone play a clockwork druid like that if they wanted.
A Dwarven bear getting poison resistance makes me happy.
I imagine all Dwarven druid wild shapes also retain the beard, while elven wild shapes retain the pointy ears... and yet, bandits never quite notice the bearded rat running around their HQ.
I’ve always considered the wood elf walking speed to be base 30 +5 for 35. So I would rule that the new creature gets a +5 to their base movement speed.
That makes sense. Since it carries over into wildshaped forms, it would likely be some kind of supernatural effect related to their connection with nature, or something like that.
Moon Druid is my favorite class based on how I rule it but I'm always nervous to play it because of the list of things the DM has to decide about my character. The designers could help us all out a lot with more specifics or some reworks to update wild shape. "What makes sense" just changes too much from DM to DM. Do Elementals have hands to hold a staff? Can they wear cloaks? Magic tattoos? How do these items influence elemental abilities like earth glide? I've struggled to find consensus.
I have another interesting case for you.
The wild shape rules state that a Druid in Wild Shape form retains features from the class. ASI is a class feature, since we only get it from lvl up a class (not a character, like a cantrips). Does this mean that if I take ASI and increase my Strength, then my bear will be stronger than the bears of other druids (because I, for example, practiced in this form)?
Or if I take the invocation from the warlock Devil's Sight. Will I keep it in beast form?
What if it was taken by the ASI/Feat?
Perhaps if we get a clear answer to this question, there could be more muscular druids in the game (I'm looking at you, Halsin)? :Д
That is a really interesting question. Especially with One DnD potentially redefining ASI's as feats anyways it seems like they either intend us to keep them or it is an oversight.
What about an str/dex/con increase that you receive from your race?
@@irwingbrasil
In short, yes, they are.
In more detail, let's look at the example of the wood elf, which was mentioned by Criss, referring to Jeremy Crawford. Jeremy says that "Fleet of Foot" will work in Wild shape when the word "Features" is not mentioned when we choose this race (Wood Elf). Instead, we see word "Traits" when summing up all the bonuses from the race. It follows that "Traits" includes "Features", but even within the race itself they are in no way clear evedence what might be called "Traits" and what might be called "Features". It's all Traits here. In the example of giving these bonuses from the race, "Ability Score Increase" goes in the same row as "Fleet of Foot", which means it belongs to the same group, in this case - "Features".
Unfortunately, even DND Beyond does not take into account all these nuances, and not everyone wants to do their homework in compiling and accounting for character sheets for all creatures available for Wild shape. The Moon Druid is VERY strong, but not everyone realizes how powerful his Wild shape are.
For dex save: if you have proficiency in dex saves and wildshape into a bear your dex save would be the bear's dex and your proficiency bonus.
The rule mentions using the bears physical stats, but also mentions keeping your own proficiency
Things that races get as part of being a race that you could argue are "features" for the purpose of wild shape: Ability score increases, size, speed, and languages.
I think I understand wild shape, so I’ll keep editing this comment as the video goes
1º) The point about beast seen, if you wanna transform into something weird you can always ask the DM(before actually being able to do so) so they can introduce a scene/battle/whatever with said beast
Conclusion: solid video with solid points, most problems pointed out can be solved with the good old “it’s fine, I guess” but would be nice having guideline that doesn’t overwhelm the DM with making new ruling to every race
05:09 Its not all encompassing but Xanathers has a section called learning Beast Shapes under the Druid chapter and it just suggests the druid selects its wild shapes based on the environments they lived/traveled in and it lists tables of animals in those environments.
The only changes you need to make if any are if an animal like bears don’t exist in your world or if they choose a biome like Forest which contains an assortment of exotic animals like Baboons next to some ordinary ones like bears. Its because scientifically a Jungle is a forest and they made it all one biome.
Here's a fun one. Just a few weeks ago, our party druid got afflicted by an aboleth's mucous cloud, and was forced to breathe water instead of air. Thing is, she was a giant constrictor at the time.
If she dropped wild shape, would she still suffer the same effect? What if she wild shaped again into a creature that can breathe air?
For that matter, how do normal diseases interact with wild shape, anyway? If a wild shaped druid contracts a disease, does that go away when she shifts back?
The dwarven fortitude feat makes me curious about being a dwarven sorcerer with a Bloodwell Vial.
The spell Wither and Bloom from the Strixhaven book also works for this.
@@Ithruwen yes, it's the only thing that can make wither and bloom good
On the proficiency question: the wording has always led me to believe that if you're proficient in a skill or saving throw, you always add your proficiency bonus but still use the creature's (physical) ability scores.
crawford did a wildshape episode of dragon+(planescape torment one I think?) where he gave a yes on dragonborn breath weapon working for anything "with a mouth like orifice" then backtracked almost immediately on warforged living construct type beast form plating. Things only got worse from there. 5e druids are still paying for the sins of 3.x CoDzilla in a lot of ways I suspect that if the episode were done a year or two later when wotc realized warforge were super popular as a player race that it would have been a totally different ruling on their plating
10:00 I think it means to use the beast's physical stat modifiers, and then whichever [proficiency] bonus is higher. I think the "bonus" in this case is anything you add other than your modifier. So Jack of All Trades and Expertise both work while wild shaped
For most of these, I feel like you're just playing with us. My favorite class is druid, and I feel pretty confident in my understanding of Wild Shape. That said, your "what's reasonable to me" ruling looks to be right most of the time.
The "you have seen before" clause is just a DM "buy-in" clause; it's vague so DMs can rp or set a system if they so choose but otherwise does nothing. I mostly use it to limit options for first time players so they don't struggle with analysis paralysis.
Shapechange hp pool is separate from your base hp pool and your WS hp pool. So at 8:40, that's a shapechange issue and is independent of WS. If your concentration remains on shapechange despite being brought to 0 hp in WS, you revert to shapechange because it replaces your "normal form" for the duration of the spell. What makes it wonky is if you cast this spell while WS or shapechange again after WS; that's where we really have no rule on how it works.
So I think WS proficiency rules are bad as written, but you're mistaken in thinking you're running it wrong if I'm understanding you correctly. RAW and RAI, just look at the bonus (no formulas, no calculating). Looking at the brown bear, it has a +5/+6 "bite" attack which will always be a +5/+6 "bite." The brown bear doesn't have a DEX saving throw proficiency (but the Giant Sea Eel from Ghosts of Saltmarch does), so the bear has a +0 to DEX saves. If your DEX save bonus is higher but you lack proficiency, your bonus is 0. So looking at the Giant Sea Eel who has a +4 to DEX saves (+2 DEX), they always have a +4 bonus that doesn't scale with your character (if I'm understanding Jeremy Crawford*). In this case with DEX resilience, your character has a +7 bonus to DEX saves and uses this +7 bonus even when WS as a Giant Sea Eel. Calculating their proficiency bonus is irrelevant; just look at the bonus as a total.
Now, let's look at the most bogus example: let's say you have a +2 WIS, no proficiency in perception, and you WS into an owl at lvl 6. The owl has a +3 perception bonus listed on its sheet, and you have a +2 from your WIS. You don't recalculate based on your higher WIS or your higher proficiency bonus. Your perception, RAW and RAI, is +3. You only look at the bonus total without calculating any formula. It does not become +4 because of your WIS nor +5 with your proficiency. I disagree with everything that makes this RAW and RAI.
But you're also mistaken on how to determine the proficiency bonus for NPCs/monsters; treat their CR level the same as a PC level (rounded up if less than 1).
*In his tweets clarifying the intention Jeremy Crawford says: "A druid in beast form uses his or her proficiencies, except when the beast has the same proficiency with a higher bonus." and "The intent is that the druid uses the bonus in the beast's stat block for any proficiency the druid lacks." No matter how I read this and the WS rules, your proficiency bonus doesn't seem to apply to the beast's stat block. HOWEVER, everyone I know (and resources I've read) who's ever read this (and from whom I've gotten the tweets) all interpret that you calculate in your proficiency to the beast. You are the first person who has agreed with my reading comprehension and dndbeyond's WS functions (according to someone I play with, I haven't made a druid on there).
Carry over damage and hit dice is 100% correct.
Spells and actions of spells, your ruling is correct, but the qualifier is actually in the first sentence. (Despite not having hands) if your WS is reasonably capable of performing an action, you are able to perform the action. It just requires DM "buy-in," so the opposite ruling would also be correct if the DM doesn't think you would be reasonably capable.
Physically capable of doing so... oh, yep. Yeah, it's super gray. But the fine line it breaks on is if the ability includes a body part in the description that the new form doesn't have. Ah, you found a tweet. I haven't seen this one before, but yeah... I totally get you. Some things are dumb.
The specification that your equipment doesn’t change to accommodate your new form actually has a funny interaction. The rules for magic items state that most magic items can or will change size to fit their owner which the Druid specifically stops. This won’t really affect most Druids, I imagine, but if you were feeling especially creative and made an Armorer Druid you’ll run into an issue where two specific rules contradict. Your arcane armor wants to change to fit you but your Wild Shape won’t let it. This is probably something a DM would hand wave since a subclass feature is more specific than a class feature, but it’s still fun to look at weird interactions like this.
Monster Proficiency bonus is tied to CR, there's a table in the DMG you can look it up on page 274.
If I recall correctly, the DMG states that a creature's proficiency bonus is based on their Challenge Rating (not Hit Dice), with a table that matches the same progression as PC levels but expanded from CR 0 to CR 30.
So there is a rule for it, but it's hidden away.
Also I believe the PHB bear claw's attack bonus was updated in an errata, so it should be fixed in later printings.
How do you guys feel about (giant) ape and keeping your weapon?
E.g. flame blade, shadow blade (possibly upcast) or physical magical weapons like a defender longsword.
The ape seems to be able to hold and use a sword for me, but do you overwrite its multiattack with the blade?
This would be suboptimal on a giant ape without upcasting, considering it has a 3d10 + 6 fist, but i like the flavor and potential of a mulitattacking flame-scimitar swirling giant ape
What do you think?
In my table I decide to just stop worrying about it and talking with my druid player I just changed the Wild Shape to work like this:
You can speak through magical means as if your normal body was there (Still can't cast any spells, just hold concentration).
You use the beasts stat sheet for everything but ignore it for mental stat checks. So for a saving throw you roll as if were the beast, with let's say -2 INT modifier. But for a History check you roll with your normal stats and proficiencies.
This makes it so much easier to remember, no comparing stats to see which is bigger and no hassle with the player trying to figure out a way to communicate in beast form.
So that's how you make the snails from Turbo in D&D!
Is the racial feature passing on to wildshape going to influence which race you're using to optimize Wildshape build? The Autognome artificer with druid sounds like a hell of a multiclass.
super unrelated but are you still on the hunt for a better monk? I was inspired by all your monk videos and I was wondering if you'd be interested in viewing my take on it.
To the proficiency bonus thing: There is a handy chart to the prof. bonus based on the CR in D&D Beyond
CR: 0-4 = +2
CR: 5-8= +3
CR: 9-12= +4
CR: 13-16=+5
CR: 17-20= +6
CR: 21-24= +7
CR: 25-28=+8
CR: >28= +9
Hope this proofs helpful
I’m playing a Werewolf in our current campaign (Moon Druid/Beast Barbarian/Long Death Monk). Only went to lvl 2 Druid, and will only be using Brown Bear until I unlock Beast Claws, and then while go Dire Wolf for the rest of the build. The key to my build is that the character is a Changeling, and uses Shapechange to adjust the Wildshape to be more humanoid (the Were in Werewolf). Large size means the Claws are 2d6+Str+Rage, and strike twice with a single attack action. As the character goes Monk, that means three attacks then four attacks, and finally six attacks at 2d6+6 each (and the occasional bite for 2d6+6 that also knocks the target probe on a failed Str save).
Off topic, but do you plan to give your take on PF2E sometime? I saw you were playing a game with another group recently. I thought casters were nerfed a bit hard, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
Personally how we've always handled wild shape is:
It lasts until you're knocked out of it or dismiss it. You use whichever stats are higher between you and the beast. Rather than any beast you've seen it's any beast you've "established a spiritual connection with" so getting new forms is more of an active mini adventure that lets us have "hey look what I earned" moments. All racial bonuses like dark vision carry over as long as it's not requiring something like an obvious anatomy such as a shell, claws, wings, etc. And we pick a shape as a favored form and it levels alongside so forms stay relevant and fun.
on a slight tangent, how would you optimise a rogue druid infiltration specialist?
17:00 - I would rule that the previous line there "Your ability to take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form." is the specific ruling, while "prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell" is the general ruling. Wild Shape, in and of itself, would not prevent you from using the instant summon, but a lack of hands or a lack of ability to speak would prevent you from doing that in snake form. The Circle of the Moon druid's elemental forms could use the instant summon - they have hands and are capable of speaking an elemental language after all.
19:40 - "Transforming doesn't break your concentration on a spell you've already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you've already cast." I read this as applying to your base form abilities, as they have already stated that ongoing spells continue to affect you. The stipulation that you can't use any of your special senses is a rider on the previous statement that you retain the benefits of your racial features if the new form is physically capable of it. ie: you can't say that because your new form has eyes, you can keep your elven darkvision. As Truesight is a spell, it modifies your form. So your new form starts with no truevision, but is then modified by the spell while it's active.
There’s a chart in the introduction portion of the MM that lists proficiency bonus by CR.
My one solution to the Brown Bear proficiency bonus riddle was: It has a +1 proficiency bonus, but it has Expertise in Perception, doubling it to 2. It seems like this is redundant with Keen Smell in the mix, but it at least creates some consistency. (Using an errata to change it to +2 is fine as well. :) )
Ooo, I hadn’t thought of a moon druid with a breath weapon. I’m super down for that and checking with my DM now.
We're cleared for breath weapons! Let's do this!
Now this one is fair game, since you can gain this by pure magic, it's not a physical trait but a magical one ...
That could be fun if you first shapechange into a dragon, then wildshape into a cat.
I would really love to see a video on how you'd rebalance the moon druid to make it balanced and satisfying to play at all levels 😁
I agree with all of your rulings and readings except for the skill and STs. What I would do is just let you use the total bonus (including PB) that is higher, so if the beast has a crappy perception and I ask you to roll perception you can use your own character's, but if the beast has a STR ST of +5 you can use that one instead of your own
From the wording in the PHB this is how I think the ability scores and proficiencies work, however I also agree with just doing whatever the DM/table wants or thinks is most fun:
Str score = Beast's score
Dex score = Beast's score
Con score = Beast's score
Int score = Character's score
Wis score = Character's score
Cha score = Character's score
If the beast is proficient in a skill or save and your character is not, use the beast's proficiency bonus.
If your character is proficient in a skill or save and the beast is not, use your character's proficiency bonus (implied from the following statement "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours.").
If you are both proficient in a skill or save, use your character's proficiency bonus unless the beast's bonus is higher (directly stated in the above statement).
I'm not sure where Chris is reading that we get to use our character's Dex bonus on skills/saves we're proficient in but I think that is wrong since the book plainly states that all of your character's game statistics are replaced by the beast's statistics with the exceptions of Int/Wis/Cha scores, skill proficiencies, and saving throw proficiencies. This entire comment is also extremely pedantic so I'll stop it here
@@Caterpie56 "You dont know how to use wildshape"!
Proceeds to make a video with incorrect information. Honestly not even watching because I know how Wildshape works like the back of my hand, and the title was click bait, and pretentious.
@@GreyfauxxGaming he does go over some useful/interesting rulings with regards to racial traits but the part on proficiencies irked me because I know just how important wording is. Overall good video though so I would just skip over that section and get to the second half
In the monster manual on page 8, there is a table for showing the proficiency bonus by challenge rating.
Traits like Healing Machine do mention it being part of anatomy, right there in the name.
I'd argue you'd revert to your "normal form", which is still under the effect of the
Shapechange spell.
Here's my take!
1. Beasts you've seen should be covered by an agreement between you and your DM.
2. Your normal form sounds vague, but it also doesn't say it cleanses you from other effects. So Shapechange would still be in affect.
3.1. Because you are proficient in dexterity, you get to add your proficiency to your dexterity saving throw as a Brown Bear but use the form's dexterity. Wild Shape doesn't hinder your instincts, but that bear body sure makes dodging arrows tougher than what you remember it to be.
3.2. Monsters don't usually have a proficiency since that was designed for player-mechanic, which is why we take all other info from the monster stat block except the three mind skills and a possible proficiency - because that's rooted in the individual.
4. Carry over damage is affected by resistances if it makes sense so our DM rules it. For example a cone of cold would affect the normal form as well because the spell takes time, but a piercing damage from an arrow deals all of it's damage in a single instant.
5. Snakes can't talk, but they can do other actions that can be parts of a spell. But if your DM is cool with it, that would just make more cool moments.
6. Spells would remain in effect so True Seeing would work. It isn't "your" special sense. What does intrigue me is what would a person with true sight see when looking at a druid that has shaped into a rat. We just consider all physical traits getting replaced or removed by Wild Shape.
7. No Amphibious, Dwarven Resilience & Toughness, Rabbit Hop. But even Jeremy there is manacled to the templated text form of the books. 5e doesn't hide effects: what you see is what you get to a massive extent.
I'm pretty sure you know how Wild Shape works. You're an incredibly smart person. Some lines just need to be drawn by the DM. And those are the trials that define them as such.
*reads crawford's tweet*
*looks at plasmoid*
"The amorphous trait doesn't specify anatomy…"
*furiously pages through the monster manual to find the largest creature I can wild shape into to fit through a 1 inch hole*
4:02 you can safely assume a druid may have encountered any ordinary beast found in the region of the setting or suitably for the geograpy of the setting.
FYI, Monster proficiency bonus scales the same as PCs, but uses CR instead of level. i.e. CR 0-4 has +2 proficiency, CR 5-8 is +3 proficiency, and so on. Reference DMG chapter 9 table "Monster Stats by CR" you find this aligns with PC's proficiency bonus scaling and continues past lvl 20.
we played a campain with your idea of chaning wildshape from 1-18 it was a good character in that adventure/campain
The Proficiency Bonus for monsters is actually, of all things, buried in the DMG! Page 274 gives the CR to PB chart, and is the only part of Monster creation that is a rule rather than a tradeoff guideline~
Can monsters expend hit dice during a short rest? Is that said anywhere in the rules?
Re: seen shapes. Xanathar's has some optional guidance in the druid section. "Consider the environment your druid grew up in, then consult the appropriate table for a list of animals that your druid has probably seen by 2nd level". It DOES kinda imply that most/many druids will be from a small number of environments to get access to Brown Bear and Giant Eagle. (and no environment I can find includes Brown/Polar/Eagle)
Does +2 str and +2 con from dwarf transfer?
Or did I miss that part? How is AC calculated?
Get an animated shield. Activate it, then wildshape into a giant toad and eat someone.
If they try to fight their way out, the AC of the inside of your stomach is the same as your AC on the outside - which means that shield hovering in front of your face somehow makes it harder for your food to escape. :D
Another thing that probably works is a protector aasimar's wings, since these only seem to need your form to have a back that they can sprout from. Nobody expects a flying killer whale! But can that flying whale use "healing hands" without hands?
I don't know if your going to cover this, but I was looking into Dragonlance feats and there's a potential synergy between moon druid and adept of the black robes. As long as enemies fail the saving throw on a spell you cast (say flaming sphere), you can spend your hit dice. This feat is interesting because, more or less, the better a caster you are, the worse your HD, but some beasts have d12 as HD and you're not wasting your original form ones. Problem is to find the right spells for the job
I actually give out cards with the statblocks of creatures the encounter saves the trouble of them being unsure and gives them something to plan with. Makes the game much smoother and easier to plan with . As for race, I just let them all stick and say that the wildshape works in a way that the gills stay or something.
In either tashas or xanathar, can't remember which, there is a list of beast and what regions they would be seen in. So you could just say your druid grew up around forests and you would get a whole list of creatures.
My favorite adaptation of wild shape was in the 3.5 Player’s Handbook 2 book. It offered an alternative to the base druid’s wild shape, and instead had different forms that offered static boosts. For example, you learn the ferocious slayer form at level 8, which it suggests may look like a bear, tiger, or dire wolf. You increase in size once, and it grants you a bite and two claw attacks, a +8 to Strength, a +4 to Fortitude saves, and a +8 to natural armor. No more question about if you’ve seen a creature anymore, and no more worrying about source books that add imbalanced beast stats. It also made it so druids couldn’t dump their physical stats anymore, which was an issue in 3.5. Their hit points never changed, so they couldn’t just continually shift to gain mountains of free hit points. To help with that, this version of wild shape has unlimited uses.
I think it’d be easy enough to adapt this to 5e with the introduction of Tasha’s summon spells. Make stats for your predator or aerial or whatever form, and then allow your druid to change into them based on whatever level restrictions you use.
Another prickly issue: can you take the form of specific beasts you see? If you are still infiltrating the manor of a baron, can you take on the form of his calico housecat, with her very specific and recognisable markings, her scarred ear, and her bobbed tail? If your fighter friend has accepted a challenge to joust a rival knight, who shows up with a massive brute of a warhorse with all kinds of bonuses and proficiencies to joisting, could you shape shift into that specific horse to gain all those advantages for yourselves?
There is an implied base speed of 30ft in the races. Racial features increase or decrease from the 30. Fleet of foot is a +5ft to the base walking speed, so if you are using it in the wildshape form, then it is beast speed +5ft.