I believe Moon Druids can still use an action to wild shape as a class feature. The subclass reads "you gain the ability to use wild shape as a bonus action", which I believe means that the original ability from the class wildshape feature ("you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before") is not replaced. So you could use your bonus action to rage and action to wildshape during your first turn. You're still not attacking until round 2, but you do gain the resistance immediately.
@@marcodrawer I played a straight barb once who would douse himself in alchamists fire to make sure i took dmg so rage never ended, was a bear totem barb so was halfing fire dmg and with alch fire only being 1d4 the fire dmg i took was almost always only 1 point
@@Daniel-xv8ie Bad idea. So bear totem takes 3 levels from spell casting progression. Just to ensure rage last longer. Also it takes action to dose yourself in alchemist fire.. Meaning... You can only turn into bear or rage on the same turn. Basically you wasted your entire turn to prep yourself to be durable sponge that DM will ignore until you're last one standing and rest of the team is dead.
@@Tespri ressed an old one but anyways, you missread my post, i was just mentioning a way i used to get around rage dropping if i couldnt attack i was playing a straight barb as in pure barb only leveled class so loosing spell prog wasnt an issue for me, i was just replying to the guy that was on about taking dmg to prolong rage not to the idea of a druid bear barb specifically.
So what’s your opinion on the barbarian’s unarmored defense being active in wild shape? If you keep your class features, but your physical stats are replaced then I’ve been allowing the Druid’s AC to shift.
Yeah, don’t know why he didn’t mention it. You should be able to use unarmored defense with the bear’s statistics. It has +3 Con, so an AC of 13. Not much, but much better than 11.
Its pretty much +1 for most forms; I don't think its really relevant when the AC is still garbage and Reckless Attack is going to make it even more redundant.
@@warmwaterpenguin When you have multiple ways to calculate AC, you can choose which you use. Unarmored defense simply says when you are not wearing armor, not when you are unarmored, e.g. when you’re AC is calculated simply as 10+Dex.
I’m glad you’re doing a Wild Shape series. I’ve wanted to make a good character who fights in Wild Shape for ages and the best I’ve managed is “not deadweight.”
Hrm I wanted to hear at least 20 seconds of advice on what you'd do after level 4 if someone decides they want to go forward with it anyway. I hope we hear that in the upcoming wildshape videos. Also, as a general comment for 2023, I know you don't focus on magic items because you can't assume them for a given game. That said, magic items remain a meaningful part of this game, I strongly suspect they will be more prominent with ONED&D, so it would be nice to hear some thoughts on the kinds of magic items a particular build should strive for sometimes. I know an awful lot of DMs ask their players "What would be your PC's wishlist for magic items" or have a way to craft magic items in their games. It would be nice if these optimization videos provided a bit of guidance on being able to answer that wishlist question.
Interesting point. I'm generally of the opinion that "Sure, you can make anything work if the DM just hands you the perfect magic items." But I guess I forget how many people actually play that way.
Referring strictly to optimization as it applies to the multiclass and development of a Druid/Barbarian this video forsakes much despite claiming to do critical analysis of the build and citing wildshape character multiple times. If you stick strictly to theme and only do bear shapes, yes all stated discussion applies. If you however look at optimization of a Druid/Barbarian wildshape character CR 2 forms and beyond still continue to offer superior options alongside a 3rd level in Barbarian grants while raging via Totem Barbarian and ironically Bear Totem resistance to all damage except Psychic in a race agnostic character.
Magic Items you want something like Eldritch Claw Tattoo or Insignia of Claws. And if you go more for Barbarian after extra attack you want to start looking at Moorbounder, which does 4d4+4 damage on single attack. Still when you go to higher levels, the problems are still there and after level ~8-9 you are not going to be much of a powerhouse.
Hi friend my post mentions a few things an options I took to optimize upto level 13, the craziest level for this build, earth elemental plus rage= I can't kill you and you can kill anything time to end the campaign lol
My bearbearian was a feral female halfling. She wouldn't do much fighting in her normal form. But what's great with this build is that you really only need one good stat! Just have a good Wisdom. Everything else is just flavor and allows you to play however you like. (Also she had an extra level of badassery because she was from Chult and could wild shape into dinosaurs!)
I really love the breakdown, better than any I've seen. When you do your lvl 6 moon druid dmg report vs BearBarb early in the video, I dont think you're including that you could be concentrating on call lightning or spike growth for extra damage that you can't do while raging as a bearbarb. Also something people seem to overlook is that you can't communicate verbally with your party in wildshape. I'd argue it'd be pretty tough while raging too. Now you're raging and wild shaped?... Maybe this isn't an issue at your table, but it has been at mine. Having played a moon druid/goo warlock(telepathy) I've had multiple times where I've lost my concentration even with warcaster. This is the time Rage would be awesome. Start out doing as much dmg/healing/control as you'd like with a concentration spell. With your low armor you're going to get hit. If you lose concentration but still have lots of hp in wild shape, rage it up. Bonus action spell slot heals. Resistance, reckless attack. If you get invocations in warlock you can get mage armor, which I believe carries over to wild shape giving you a pretty solid consistent AC boost. I have Hellish Rebuke for when they knock me out of wild shape. Armor of Agathys and Longstrider are also great spells to stack up before you wild shape. You can be a little mad, or just sacrifice your chr if you don't want to pick up Eldritch Blast as a cantrip for when/if you run out of wild shape. I will also comment that just because it's called the "BarBearian" doesn't mean you have to feel restricted to being a bear. When you hit higher levels, there's no reason to not take a different, non-bear wild shape if it is the best for the situation and available to you. Great video, thanks again!
If you go 6 lvls into Druid to get Elemental forms you can become immune to exhaustion which then allows you to frenzy without penalty for three attacks but I haven’t done the math on whether that is any good. Just an observation.
I think War Cleric would be a good way to transition between the martial and spellcaster sides of this build. Level 1 it gives you a way to attack with your bonus action with natural weapons that scales off your Wis, level 2 it gives you a limited use accuracy boost, and the whole time your continuing your spell progression. I really wish Barkskin wasn't concentration
This is a good video, and you're absolutely right that this doesn't get talked about enough. The main thing I think you missed in the Pro column is the added versatility it gives you. Your assumption that you have to pick between a raging bear or a Concentration spell is correct, but not necessarily a weakness. Ot just means it's on you to decide, each battle what resources are required to win in the most efficient way. You have 2 LR resources in your spell slots and rages, and 2 SR resources in your wild shapes. It stands to reason that the LR resources need to be selected with the most care. Every battle is different. You might need to tank for your frontlines while they fall back, or you might just need to faerie fire or entangle and control with thorn whip. Either way, the best feat for a druid is resilient Con
A cool build I’ve been looking at is armorer artificer + moon druid. With a generous interpretation of the rules, you can wear your guardian armor while wildshaped into a dire wolf. This gives you magic plate mail AC (if druids can wear metal) and int based attacks that will scale as you level. You then take mobile and dual wielder to get a 60 foot evasive move speed and 3 attacks per turn with (probable) advantage, giving 2-3 opponents disadvantage to attack anyone but you, except that you’re going to run away so they can’t get to you. The damage really struggles at level 4 and 5, which isn’t great, but you’re back to respectability at 6+ in addition to providing a strong tank role.
This doesn't save the build, but something interesting I found is that the unarmored defence feature from barbarian would ALSO apply to wild shape, so the brown bear would have an AC of 13 rather than 11 thanks to 10 + con + dex. As well as this, I've looked at the druid 15/barbarian 5 multiclass to get extra attack on the brontosaurus. Extra attack doesn't stack with multi attack, but it would allow the brontosaurus to make 2 attacks since it normally only makes 1
Hey Chris, what do you think about using animal forms that don’t have multi attack? If you were to use a giant hyena or a giant elk, they only can make one attack per turn normally, would you let them attack twice with the extra attack feature using their natural weapons? What if we took a third level of barbarian for berserker for 3 of those attacks? Overall would a better animal improve this build enough? Change into all kinds of rabid animals, the Berzooker! Also for Frankenstein builds you could always go with the Boomzerker. An armorer artificer/ ancestral? barbarian mix that brings the THUNDER!!! You can use strength instead of intelligence for the thunder gauntlets and it would give you a nice taunt like ability.
Yes a wildshaped druid can use Extra Attack on their animal forms that only have single attacks such as a Giant Constrictor. Do note that means 5 levels into Barbarian and that is a hefty investment.
I've been playing a similar build for the last few months in a level 1-12 campaign (currently level 8) and it's been working out pretty well but my progression has been a bit different: I started out taking Beast barbarian levels 1-6 and then switched to Moon druid 2, using the druid features for utility, out of combat spell casting, and the combat wild shape as a panic button if I need more health. The flavor of the two classes works really well together as a "druidic warrior shapeshifter" character and I've been able to stay competitive with damage compared to the rest of the party (not a highly-optimized campaign or party but still one where we're doing deadly encounters, etc). I think treating the build as a barbarian-tank first, druid second is the way to go, unless you're specifically playing at level 4/5. Usually in combat I use barbarian rage and beast rage forms to deal damage but the shapeshifting from wild shape has been useful every session out of combat for utility alone and has also saved my life from the health gain. I plan on finishing this campaign out with a barbarian 8 / druid 4 split but if we progressed further taking druid levels until 20 (B8/D12) just because there isn't much damage different between a barbarian at level 6 and one at level 20. Just figured I'd offer my experience since this is really close to the build I've been running and enjoying a lot the last ~7 months.
I played a gestalt style homebrew for 5e once and I made a lv 20 Moon Druid/lv 17 Totem Warrior Barbarian/lv 2 Paladin/lv 1 Life Cleric. From lv 3 to 20 was very effective and fun.
So one thing I think you missed is that while extra attack doesn't stack with multi attack, it does still work while in wild shape. This allows the character to take forms that don't have multi attack and still get a second hit in the round. The advantage here is that creatures without multi attack tend to have slightly better stats to compensate. So there's that
A build I’ve been considering is moon druid 2/astral monk x. Essentially you are a monk with 74 temporary hit points per short rest, and while you have the temps your speed gets better and you get pack tactics. You can also concentrate on spells, in case you want to.
My reading of Unarmoured Defence makes this build seem even stronger at level four than presented here. I don't believe that natural armour counts as wearing armour, so you could use the bear's+0 DEX and +3 CON to give yourself an AC of 13, which still isn't good but is better than the base 11. That would also mean that it falls off even harder when you get to cave bear at druid 6, as your AC wouldn't increase at all relative to the brown bear form.
From the description of unarmored defense: "While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier." So regardless of what a creature's natural armor is, unarmored defense starts with that 10. It's the same reason you can't be a barbarian lizardfolk and have an AC of 13+DEX+CON.
You can choose whichever armor equation is better RAW. Natural armor is not listed in the unarmored defense equation, so is not counted if you choose to use unarmored defense. You'd still get dex and +3 con, as you note, so your 13 is correct. It's important to make this distinction, as some think you'd add the 3 to your natural armor, which would give a 14, which is not the case. Another example I've seen is someone try a monk/barbarian, and use both types of armored defense to add wisdom and con to AC, which also doesn't work for players.
I went Monk for an Unarmored Defense that's based on a stat that doesn't change with form and synergizes with Druid. Added Life Cleric for Lifeberries. I essentially tanked Str, Dex, Int, and Con as much as I could because they were worthless anyway and concentrated on Wisdom. (My Dex is 13 for multiclassing reasons.) All of my animal ACs are pretty good and my monk gives me extra movement on each of those forms. My second best stat is Charisma, which allows me a host of other multiclassing options. Because why not. Barbarian would be rough to add to the mix because it makes it just too MAD. It just doesn't match up very well on Ability Scores, but it'd be fun to try.
Very nice new series, looking forward to it! On the Moon Druid Wild Shape: you could also do it as an action since you don't loose this regular class feature. This means you could wildshape and rage in turn 1 - obviously for the cost of not doing any damageon turn 1.
@@TreantmonksTemple That's not exactly how I read the rule on Rage. "It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then." In my opinion, turns are something you take in combat, so if you rage on your first turn, your rage lasts until the end of your second turn, if you at that point STILL haven't attacked or taken dmg. This ONLY applies to a barbarian that rages on their first turn imo. If this is not how the rules are interpreted, the only alternative I see, is that a barbarian that rages and doesn't take dmg or attack during THAT turn (not round), will lose their rage immediately after their turn ends, and will take full dmg from any attack after their turn ends. This will imo apply in either case, to any barbarian that rages on any turn that isn't their first.
@@binolombardi well it says since your last turn, and since you haven't had a last turn yet, I'd take the generous interpretation and say it lasts at least until the end of your second turn. But yes, if you wanna be technical about it, every 6-second span could be counted as a turn and since you didn't attack or take dmg right before combat started, you would lose your rage immediately.
Dire wolf might be better for survivability and damage if you get extra attack from either barbarian levels or fighter levels as the bite is an attack option so can be done twice. It also has an AC of 14, pack tactics and better HP, meaning hit less frequently due to no reckless attacks and higher AC. Giant Boar is also good as an option if you’re only going a little way into Druid with its relentless ability being more enhanced by the Barbarian’s rage ability. I’d consider more lvls in barbarian, two levels in Druid and rage on the first turn without wildshaping and then turning into a beast on round two. It’s still potent, keeps rage up and makes you a tank. As with all wild shapes though it will not scale very well so you use wild shape at higher levels for different things than dealing damage in combat.
I'm curious on how you plan to optimize the wild shape. I don't know if you do this kind of thing but as a gestalt character would a barbarian druid stay good as it did at lv 4? Or since wildshape had inherently poor returns does even gestalt rules not help it?
I've been toying with the idea of going spores druid 8 and wild magic barb 6, that way I could give myself a spell slot back or use gwm with an extra d3 to hit. Extra thp and damage from halo of spores/symbiotic entity seem fun too. The character I'm paying is a reborn so it would have some Last of Us mushroom zombie flavor.
I found it interesting how you pointed out the advantage of being able to cast a concentration spell before wildshaping, but during your analysis there was no mention of this in the analytics. Where's Moonbeam or Flaming Sphere during the 6th Level calculation? You can even included the analysis of how long concentration will be maintained based upon the average damage being received and barbarian proficiency with Constitution.
Oh! I'm waiting for the video with Wild Shape optimization. I never used moon druid in a character build because it feels too strong in a low level party and weak in a high level party (not in a 20th level party, obviously, because the "infinite HP", but its a long long way to get there). I thought using Mark of Shadow elf in a 7th moon druid build, so we could use greater invisibility with Wild shape. This will enhance our damage output due advantage and virtually enhance the AC because everything will have disadvantage to hit you. Also it will free you to take Mobile feat, because AoO. But it's a setting specific race and not every DM will allow Mark of Shadow Elf in their Champaign. I'm curious and glad because you always do a great job, Chris, I love math and also love D&D! Thank you!
My friend has a homebrew campaign setting where the level cap is 5 and I was planning to go for this build and rounding it up with a 3rd level of Barbarian to get the bear totem on top of the bear form.
I have a player in my game that plays this character. He sees himself as a druid that likes to fight. The barbarian levels are just for hp. He took 1 level of war cleric because his has high wisdom. This has significantly added to his number of attacks. He plays utility druid, scouting and such. It's a fun character that isn't necessarily optimised but he always has ways to contribute, both in and out of combat.
I'm a fan of the Drunk. Or Dronk? Druonk? DruidX/Monk2. Maybe more monk, haven't dug into that too much, but AC 16+ for wildshapes, bonus action unarmed strikes, maintain concentration, and a variety of subclass options for Monk if you take more levels.
@@cooperton4949 I like the bonus action dodge and dash, really. Plus, if you take their level and go astral self you can turn into a bird with 10 ft long arms then punches people. It's mostly hilarious
After Level 4, push to Barbarian 5 taking Path of the Bear Totem Warrior to basically get resistance to all damage (take Kalashtar race for psychic resistance and to be able to communicate in wild shape) and Extra Attack. Once you're at Druid 2 Barbarian 5, use Giant Spider form instead to get 2 Bite Attacks. Keep raising Druid levels the rest of the way for better Beast/Elemental forms.
warlock gets you spell slots on short rest for healing, plus some utility. totem barb gives you resist all*. fighter gets everything fightery. i like barb 3/drd 2/ftr 3/lock the rest. armor of agathys doesn't require concentration, so worth casting up. has same duration as wild shape also. battle master maneuvers can be used while raging.
Longtooth Shifter Beast Barbarian 6/Spores Druid X is my favourite Barb/Druid, flavoured as a vampire (Spires can be grave mould). The temp hp scale better because of rage, and the necrotic damage on hits is better with more attacks (4 when raging and shifted). Animate dead gives you a non-concentration spell to blow your slots on that can contribute to further tankiness and damage. It's not perfect either, but I like the imagery a lot, and Druid spells and abilities strangely for a Vampiric theme.
Have not finished video. Here is my guess before doing so. The bear barbarian is phenomenal, borderline overpowered, at low levels. Then falls behind hard in the midgame and barely keeps up with the monk in high level play. I would probably try to find some way to be able to cast Armor of Agathys if I was to take this long at all. The resistance doubles the hp, and it gives a use for spell slots for the full casting Druid. Though they could only cast it before combat.
what is kind of funny is rage limitations imagine a real barbarian saying," Sorry guys I am no longer aloud to get really mad and hulk out I am fresh out of anger so now I can toss flowers"
Rage says “if you can cast spells, you can’t concentrate on them while raging”. Wild Shape specifies “you can’t cast spells”. Therefore you can concentrate on a spell while raging *if* you are in Wild Shape first. Fully legal RAW, and I believe RAI as well or they would have left out the otherwise-unnecessary “if you can cast spells” clause from the Rage rules.
I'm hoping that 1DnD will fix wildshape and moon druid. That would also fix most barbearian issues. I'm thinking something like: - template based wildshape instead of using monster manual - use your mental stats in place of your physical stats - temporary hit points based on druid level. When those run out, you revert to your normal form. - form can be up to large size at certain level and up to huge later - natural attack damage scales with level (less for flying forms) - extra attack when wild shaped at level 5 - AC scales with level - starting at various levels, you can choose special abilities and speeds like spider climb, flying, reach, swimming/breathing under water, automatic grapple, pack tactics, poison, pounce and so on.
With regards to a template I believe Wizards of the Coast kind of do. If we look at the revised Beastmaster Ranger the conpanion forms can serve as a template for scaling in damage and hit points. Now regarding the extra abilities that is an awesome idea to implement.
I would like to see wild shape limited to Moon Druids (or gettable with a Feat). And then let other druids have an animal companion or focus on more powerful spellcasting.
@@larstollefsen1236 I think so, that's where the idea came. I'm hoping something like that gets implemented officially. It would also be very much on the spirit of Tashas.
AC is the same between the two bear forms. You keep your unarmored defence feature from barbarian and the CON for both is +3 so you get AC 13 for both so that extra 1CR is even worse.
I played this build many times but only in adventurers League. The ability to totally rebuild your character any time before level 5 means that you can optimize a straight barbarian at levels 1&2, then rebuild as a barBEARian for 3&4 and then into your real character for 5-20.
so ive been running this build with bugbear for the 10 foot reach and powerful build. powerful build means in bear form i can lift 1200 lbs, wizard casts spider climb on me and we walked into a dungeon backwards lol. its amazing, at lvl 11 right now, and i did 3 barbarian (totem bear), 4 druid, and 3 fighter (battle master). My dps is ridiculous and having surprise attack from new bugbear means when you get lucky you can essentially one shot a massive creature w superiority dice with action surge, which i have done multiple times. having spells like spike growth an entangle help me contribute to some combat where dps isnt the best and control and better option. probably one of my most fun characters ive played, so versatile and fun. would recommend cause it can also double as a kung fu panda build.
I think that if you would have a feat to give additional uses of Rage then this build could function as Druid2/Barbarian2/Druid16. It would have the diminishing returns of the Moon Druid but still get level 9 spells and CR6 Wild Shape. Just focus on spells that do not need concentration. Wild Shape with Rage will stay a potent enough option if you keep adding Moon Druid levels. But you will need more than 2x Rage per long rest somehow.
I feel like there is something extra satisfying about optimizing a flawed build, such as the Bearbearian or an elementalist (fire only or such.) Whether it gets played or not.
Great video, Chris! I’ve run into a similar problem with barbarian multiclassing trying to make a barbarian-rogue. I’m curious what you might say about it, considering the only real way it works is to be a strength based rogue
Interesting, so you're dual-wielding finesse weapons while raging? The consistency of the sneak attack + reckless attack combo does sound quite intriguing. Although it's hard to say whether this is worth forgoing the slew of heavy weapon support you would usually have as a barb. Cool concept in any case!
I know this might get talked about in future video's perhaps, but just wanted to ask (mainly since I'm DMing my first game in 2 weeks and one of the players is going to roleplay Po, which is awesome). Would you say instead of going for the Barb, going monk would be a good alternative able to scale better, if I allow (if it isn't already working RAW) Flurry of Blows to work in Wild Shape, using the natural melee attack (so not any bite or claws from the bear itself)? For context, we play at level 8. Happy to hear, and i'll obviousy stay tuned for your next video's!
Hi. All Class features work while in Wild Shape. Which means that the free Bonus Action attack that Monks get (as well as Flurry of Blows), Unarmored Movement, Slowfall, Evasion, Unarmored Defense, etc. should apply. It might not be optimal, but it would still work, and would probably be quite fun.
As always, great video. I might have missed it but one of the benefits of moon druid is being able to use your spell slots for recovery in wild shape which does seem to be compatible with rage, although this is a limited benefit and not great in comparison to third level spells, but an extra d8 per slot level is nice defensively especially if you can combine it with rage. I think for me the way to try and keep this build going is to focus on barbarian levels as no later level wildshapes really feel worth the change, and use wildshapes as a defensive ability occasionally. This really strays away from the idea that the playstyles is tied to your identity, but worked alright for a bear totem barbarian who just liked bears
Hey mate, just checking in after your last OGL video. Your concern on switching rule sets etc. I think it may be a really interesting opportunity to develop your own system with some other significant content creators. You would be an expert then as you helped build it. Just a suggestion. I know the community I'm a part of would move instantly especially if you collude with the dungeon dudes DND shorts etc. Either way I love your content and will continue to support you regardless of WOTC's poor decision making.
What I like doing on Moon Druid, is taking 1 level of MONK at 7th. This allows you to use the Monk's Unarmored Defense calculation in your Wild Shape form. And since Wild Shape allows you to retain your mental stats, and class features, you can get much more respectable AC. Yea, you can't use martial arts by raw (which I think is stupid), but the AC bump is QUITE good, and it gives you enough extra defense that you can live, AND doesn't impede your spell casting. And if you can get your DM to allow you to have an Eldritch Claw Tattoo... it's pretty bonkers.
Barbarian 1 or 2 sucks for druids. Barbarian 3 is where it becomes a good multiclass though because of bear totem, wild shape while having resistance to everything and increasing AC? That's what makes barbarian a good multiclass. You'll eventually become an elemental with resistance to everything and more AC because of unarmored defense ._. And you didn't even mention that you can also use items such as amulet of health and insignia of claws while in wild shape. That in itself is a boost to damage, health and AC.
@@TreantmonksTemple Awesome! I'm lvl 4 now, but thinking about starting to use your Beast Form HB starting lvl 5 or 6. Lets see if it is not necessary anymore with your next videos.
Would love to see a Frankenstein build using an order cleric and glamour bard. Synergistic the abilities to get your team to move and strike. As for a pun....GLAM-OURDER CLERIC
Nice job Chris! I love this build! I have played this build to level 15 in Adventurers League. My char is the front line for the party. Lizardfolk barb 5/Druid 9. Started with druid as Chris suggests for Int/Wis saves. Took the tough feat. AC 15 w/shield 17. Use the CR 2 creature wildshape into giant constrictor snake with costricting strike to restrain enemies for the party until CR3 giant snapping turtle AC 17 HP 75 or giant scorpion (2 grappling attacks). I've had alot of fun being a damage sponge. AT lvl 15 with tough, char has 155 hp plus 2 wildshapes of giant snapping turtle 75 hp x2 (per short rest)= 305 hp w/rage (1/2 dmg) = 610 hp. My char picked up a belt of hill giant strength and a staff of striking. My char can do damage in humanoid form or tank in beast form and do damage control. Check out Min/Max Munchkin's build outline here that Chris references in some of this video. ruclips.net/video/fXyPEHAVBoA/видео.html
The one advantage I didn't hear you mention is unarmored defense. The brown bear's ac is only 11, but with unarmored defense, it's boosted to a 13. This isn't much, but since wildshape keeps all mental stats, monk/moon druid allows you to be a very tanky character. Since many spiders have high dex and we can keep wisdom, I suggest spider boxing as a replacement for bearbarian. Flurry of blows should still apply!
Natural weapon attacks are not unarmored strikes unless the attack template says so, like in the minotaur player species. So, most monster attacks are not viable for flurry of blows.
Dude, you just caused me to spend like four hours (cumulative) thinking about 3-4 different druid/monk builds...lol Using Giant Toad and Giant Constrictor Snake with Ascendant Dragon monk would be kinda funny. Restraining and then spitting fire over them and others. If your DM allows, the Ice Spiders with Long Death monk would be neat. The unarmored defense should mean that your armor would be up to 18 in wildshape. Just kinda low on wildshape HP. And another DM fiat option is dinosaurs. CR1 Clawfoot, CR1 Deinonychus, CR2 Allosaurus, CR3 Ankylosaurus. They all look like pretty solid options with their monster abilities. Again, Ascendant Dragon could be kinda thematic and fun.
@@ODDnanref That's right. You can't, for example, use a Dire Wolf Bite attack with Flurry of Blows. You can still do Flurry of Blows and make regular unarmed attacks though. So DireWolf bite as your attack action, then spend your ki to flurry and make two unarmed strikes into a possibly prone enemy.
@@ODDnanref I'm a bit lost as to why you think you can't use flurry of blows in wildshape, according to the monk class "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action." it doesn't say that you have to take the attack action with monk weapons so as long as you attack you may make a flurry of blows.
Barbearian (and the coffee lock) are great examples of build that SEEMS brokenly OP, but if you do analyse them they sucks so hard. BarBearian: yeah sure moon druid at level 2-4 are broken OP and have WAY TOO MuCH HP (2 wild shape with 30ish HP each). Barbarian of the bear totem at level 3 are doubling that HP (with resistance to all damage). so what happen when you put you get a unkillable CR 1 monster fighting CR 5 creature. Sure you are super difficult to kill, but you do next to no damage. Why attack the cute little bear with 30 ish HP and resistance to everything but who deal half the damage of the rogue who can be squished in 2 hits? you obtained CR 2 form once you reach druid level 6 (so character level 9 if you took only 3 barbarian level or level 11 if you reached level 5 barbarian for extra attack since I believe they do affect your animal form if it doesn't already have multi attack but a CR2 at level 9, CR 3 at level 12, CR 4 at level 15 and CR 5 at level 18... your damage profile will be useless, even with that +2 rage damage bonus. Even a CR 4 or CR 5 beast HP doubled with resistance and even with the improved barbarian unarmored AC on your CR 5 creature will die super quickly just going straight barbarian or straight moon druid would have been more useful since at least the straight moon druid will be able to concentrate on spells while wild shaped. A wild shape earth elemental shooting sunbeam then hiding underground... can be super effectif
In type, I call this build “Bar-bear-ian,” but in speech, I call it “Bear-barian.” Something of note is that Extra Attack does benefit the bear form slightly. You don’t have to use Multiattack, and can instead use your Claw attack in conjunction with your Extra Attack feature to make two Claw attacks. It only bumps up your average damage by 3, but it’s technically an improvement. I’ve seen others here make mention the barbarians Unarmored Defense improving the bears AC. Again, it’s not much, but it is something. To get more out of it, you could roll up a Wildhunt Shifter and use their shifting ability while in your bear form. Then, you could Reckless Attack without granting enemies within 30 feet advantage to hit you back. Makes a +2 AC improvement go a little further. Unfortunately, shifting is another bonus action, so it isn’t something that would come up too often, but having quick access to temp hp will make your rages go a little further if you’re saving wild shape uses.
@TreantmonksTemple Hey Chris! I have a question that's bothered me for a while and I'm hoping you can clear it up. Do you allow druids in general, but in this case, Moon Druids, to take the 'Multiattack' action? As stated by the PHB Multiattack is not an action that a player can take, and, looking at the description of wildshape: "Wild Shape -Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before." So you do not become the beast, you only assume it's form, and, It also goes on to say: "While you are transformed, the following rules apply: Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them." At no point do you become the beast like other effect grant, ie. Polymorph, you're assuming it's statistics, not replacing yourself with it. Much like we assume the game statistics for a weapon that we're wielding; Club(d6), Longsword(d8), Greatsword(2d6) these items transform our damage dice based on what we choose to wield. At no point are we the club or sword, it's a modifier to fill in the calculation of damage. I like to point this out because in the same subclass, the ability gained at 10th level has a much more direct approach to the effect: "Elemental Wild Shape - At 10th level, you can expend two uses of Wild Shape at the same time to transform into an air elemental, an earth elemental, a fire elemental, or a water elemental." By the writing, the PC transforms into the Creature, in this case - Polymorph. You're using both slots of the ability Wild Shape to create a different outcome. Or is my reading on that faulty? Sorry for the long question! It's created much debate and I'm curious for you to weigh in, if you'd like!
Of course, it's always worth noting that, while most build guides assume you will never get magic items, talking with your DM about it (especially one that knows the weaknesses of certain builds) can smooth over that transition. I don't see any reason why you couldn't just say "Hey! I will run into the issue of not ever getting a magic weapon, so if at some point I could find an Insignia of Claws (or just say 'magic item that boosts my natural weapons'), that'd be great!" There are plenty of magic items that take Druid wild shaping up a notch, and I feel like ignoring magic items in build guides altogether is maybe a step in the wrong direction. The base game may not assume magic items, but I've never played at a table that just didn't have any at all. I mean, the normally very mediocre Barrier Tattoo becomes FANTASTIC on a character like this. Same goes for the typically monk-only Bracers of Defense. I mean, sure, some issues just can't be fully resolved (Wild Shape attacks not scaling with proficiency is a HUGE issue), but I don't think we should leave out "talk with your DM about these possible magic items that could address some of the most glaring issues". After all, there seems to be this expectation that martial classes will eventually get a magic weapon.
Maybe a mirthful leaps satyr could help you take damage or deal damage for turn 1 rage and wildshape, guaranteed to that it will reach the 10ft required to take fall damage as long as your dm rules that mirthful leaps is usable in bear form. You can rage then wildshape, jump 9ft high and add mirthful leaps on top for a min of 10ft and 1d6 fall damage, so will have taken damage to maintain rage unless you roll a one.
Just be a tundra storm heralds. The numbers look low but over a fight stack up. By level 5 It basically just gives barbarian inspiring leaders feat but it can easily negate 18-24 damage to you every fight and 9-12 to your Allies. It also opens up your feat choice since you don't got to use a feat to weaponize your bonus action. Just efficient
One thing that would not surprise me, and I think might be an improvement for the long-term strength and playability of Druid in general and Moon Druid in particular, is if WOTC redesigns Wild Shape to use a collection of specific stat blocks in the style of the Tasha summon spells or the revised Beast Master Ranger. Each form would come with its own set of physical stats and different abilities. For example, there might be one form called Prowler that gets bonuses to stealth, or a Hunter form that's more combat oriented, etc. There would be text about how each form takes the shape of an appropriate Beast, since flavor is free, and as the Druid levels up the forms scale with them, getting extra HP and/or armor, swimming or flying speeds, extra or modified attacks for combat-oriented forms, etc. Doing this would allow the designers to let the Wild Shape scale more strongly with the Druid's level without having to worry about the possibly of an unintended interaction with it and a beast stat block causing an overpowered combination. And it would also reduce the bookkeeping for the Druid player by allowing them to select the form they want without having to flip through the Monster Manual to find an appropriate beast that has the abilities they are looking for while fitting whatever restrictions they still have for their level.
Once you get Elemental Wildshape at level 10, you can turn into an elemental that is immune to exhaustion. Frenzy Berserker synergy! You just have to get to level 13 first lol.
My non professional opinion has always been to go barbarian 5 after level 4 and pick creatures that only have one attack since fast movement and multi attack should carry over as well as unarmored defense giving you a lot of options and an additional rage. From level 7 it gets trickier. The Ankylosaurus is quite strong but it takes a while to unlock if it's even available. It's a decent power spike though.
One other thing that makes this build even more sad is the fact that neither version of Wild Shape doesn't let your proficiency bonus be used in those forms. The best you can do is use your bonus in a skill or saving throw you're proficient in, which is the only instance of using your bonus. If it were a case of allowing you to use your proficiency bonus for everything in that form, I don't think it would scale as badly. It will still be bad compared to a straight Barbarian and Druid, but at least it's better than how it is by default. Still, it's fun if you pull it off.
Would love to see some sort of Monk Paladin build, a real holy monk, a Honk! It would be tough to make work with all the necessary ability scores! Fighting while holding his hands, he could headbutt smite his foes with his shaved head.
Two levels of fighter for action surge, so you can wild shape, rage and attack all on the first round of combat. Second wind can also gives a tiny bit of extra hp to help keep you in bear form. Take a third level of barbarian for bear totem and you'll at least have a huge pool of hit points that are reliably doubled by rage. I'm certain it's outperformed by straight martials and has the same shrug factor of what to do with later levels, but if someone has a campaign that stretches from tier 1 into tier 2 this is probably the path forward with this particular build.
Being a shifter or tabaxi would give claw or bite weapons with which you are proficient. Wouldnt these work well with the wild shape proficiency rules? Increasing your hit rate até least?
I mean, grab another barbarian level, pick bear totem, and then roll druid the rest of the way. And pick other wildshapes. Can still claim bearbarian from the totem. 😁
yes, i agree that moon druid scaling is all over the place. But are there no other forms to consider? Giant constrictor snake has more HP than a cave bear, a single attack that is either 2d6+4+2 with reach, or 2d8+4+2 with grapple and restrain. A rhinoceros has about the same HP, and a charge with a knockdown attached to it. Just because its called a "barbearian", it disregards every other wildshape?
I think you are selling the “Bear” part of the character too much. At level 6, the character could change into a different creature like the giant constrictor snake. It has 18 more hit points and better to hit and damage bonuses.
My BarBearian only took one level of barbarian first... this gives me con saves natural armor and rage. The con saves and running around naked with high dex are what makes it good for my moon druid... the rages are rarely used but often save my life.
I always ruled for martial arts that since your beast attacks are unarmed, they technically count as monk weapons for your bonus action attack. Combine that with the increase to AC by your wisdom modifier, you've got a decently augmented wild shape in tier 2 play. Once you add elemental wild shape multiclassing is irrelevant.
I ever wish you did this video. Tks bro. I prefer to rage round 1. And lvl 3, I think this build is already broken. Would not the "hp",after lvl 4 , make it have a nich using "tank" features? Like going ancestral barbarian 3 to 6. And them going back to druid for utility and spellcasting out of the combat or when you don't have/wanna rage. But after all, I just think that this build is too much strong in the lvls that it is strong, and give too much trouble to tge dm to challenge without kill the rest of the party. And that's the lvls of most campaigns stop, tier 1. Even if the party goes from 10 encounters, how many of them you really need to rage? The triple hp(bear,bear,pc) and double atk already(with adv in lvl4) are really strong already.
Not to mention if that person plays as a wildhunt shifter. (while shifted you have advantage on wisdom checks, and no enemy can get advantage on their attacks within 30 ft. Add in the number of D4s equal pb and you'll be even harder to deal with. I actually like adding in the athlete feat here so you can go prone at the end of your turn, to avoid ranged attacks from outside the 30ft and then get back up for only 5ft of movement at the start of your turn)
I will mention the Elemental form for Druid is nice, but that's a long road to reach at a total level of 12. Appreciate the in-depth look, this build is clearly not without its flaws, and that's a good thing.
You can still Action to Wildshape as a Moon Druid, the feature just adds Bonus Action as an option. So you can Action Shape and Bonus Rage in the same turn no issues.
@RisenRen if you read what rage does it says attack or take damage since your last turn. Since you didn't attack or take damage before this turn your rage will end on turn one if you rage without attacking or being attacked. There is nothing in the ability description that says you are guranteed to have it for 2 turns.
I played a Harengon BarBearian but played off the rage element as him contracting rabies. By level 6 we had finally got around to curing him and he went to straight Druid and lost the barbarian levels because of it.
Literally perfect timing, I am currently planning to run a Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign w/ a BearBarian as one of the side villains. I agree with your review of this combo from a PC perspective, however, I feel when you consider this combo for a villain PC (where I prioritize high hp and defense tools, "Tanky") it becomes much more appealing. You essentially have a way to instantly heal a large amount of temp hp and also resistances to damage from Bear Totem. This is assuming the villain PC has a static level that is higher level than the PCs therefore the combo doesn't necessarily suffer from bad progression or drop off points. I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts or ideas on "Tanky" villain combos/builds and also what YOUR thoughts are from this different perspective. Much love from your Provincial Neighbor in S'toon SK!
I like this video a lot, especially pointing out the fact, as is with many multiclass builds i see, they suck at some lower levels, sometimes even up to like lvl 5 or 6. And most games dont go beyond lvl 11 so thats like 50% of the game you might be sub-optimized. So then is it even an optimized build?
I wonder how the build fares if we go for fighter past level 4. It seems like it could be helpful given it doesn't make us more MAD and it gives some cool options like second wind, action surge, maneuvers if we go for battle master etc.
Couldn't you use wild hunt shifter to negate the advantage of going reckless and still use a spell to up the damage? (the temp hitpoints aren't bad to have either.)
That would be 3 turns worth of bonus actions (Rage, Wildshape, Shifting) Although you could shift and wildshape on turn one to attack and rage on turn 2, but you’d be losing a full round of attacks.
@@omous7770 I know!!! I never said that it wouldn't be quite the action economy clutter. I had considered adding it to the commend, but I had no idea wether or not someone might react to it.
So far you did not talk about unarmored defence, which is a great assest, giving a +2 to ac for the brown bear Also multiattack on the barb makes you able to use claws 2ce instead of bite + claws, so a slight dpr increase I played a druid 3 barb 5 at some point, and it did quite well, the ungodly amount of effective hp and path of the bear is just a blast, the damage is not that great, but oke when playing without a very optimized group.
I used this BarBEARian build to play a Werebear in a Nouvelle-France Fantasy setting 7 or 8 years ago. It was awesome to roleplay and a very good tank for the party in combat. I played a human who wildshaped exclusively into a bear. Magic and all thing supernatural were highly shunned in our very-low magic homebrew setting. On level up, we kind of reskinned a better CR creature as a bear just to make the form improve mathematically. I went from level 1 to 9 with this character and it was one of my most satisfying character of all time.
I did this though experiment once, but I wonder if you’d come to the same conclusion: is there any place where using extra attack for repeating a particular wild shape’s natural weapon attack is worth the extra level investment over just putting the levels into druid and using multi attack (probably from a higher CR form)? The only thing that came close seemed to be Giant Snapping Turtle (which means 5 barb, 9 druid - well past the sweet spot of this character and probably nowhere near an optimized character at that point).
Our Neverweakened campaign’s Tortle Barbearian Gryke just landed the deciding blow to defeat the Dragon of Icespire Peak last session! After our Phandalorian artificer disabled Isendraug’s Cloud Chill with his Shatter grenade, Gryke dove off the deck of their damselfly ship and did a front flip buzzsaw move wielding the Dragonslayer Greatsword to decapitate the terror of Phandalin ⚔️
So happy to see this vid! I'm currently playing a moon druid and have run into everything here plus more. I'd hope you address the lack of darkvision. I find myself using giant spider far more than brown bear simply because most dungeons are dark. Even when a light source is available as a brown bear, it's a hassle to stick so close to it. Also, the size can be tricky in a 10ft dungeon hallway. If I start in the front line, I'm quickly knocked out of wildshape due to the low ac. Our dwarven fighter will last just as long as me with his 20 ac even though I can triple his hp!
Came for a build guide, stayed for the photos of bears.
Underrated comment
My friends and I always called this build the BearBarian, it rolls tongue just fine and distinguished it from Barbarian a bit better
Same here. I’ve always written it as BearBarian.
I believe Moon Druids can still use an action to wild shape as a class feature. The subclass reads "you gain the ability to use wild shape as a bonus action", which I believe means that the original ability from the class wildshape feature ("you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before") is not replaced. So you could use your bonus action to rage and action to wildshape during your first turn. You're still not attacking until round 2, but you do gain the resistance immediately.
Unfortunately I am pretty sure that your rage ends if you don't attack that turn.
@@pepus777 or take damage
@@marcodrawer I played a straight barb once who would douse himself in alchamists fire to make sure i took dmg so rage never ended, was a bear totem barb so was halfing fire dmg and with alch fire only being 1d4 the fire dmg i took was almost always only 1 point
@@Daniel-xv8ie Bad idea.
So bear totem takes 3 levels from spell casting progression.
Just to ensure rage last longer. Also it takes action to dose yourself in alchemist fire.. Meaning... You can only turn into bear or rage on the same turn. Basically you wasted your entire turn to prep yourself to be durable sponge that DM will ignore until you're last one standing and rest of the team is dead.
@@Tespri ressed an old one but anyways, you missread my post, i was just mentioning a way i used to get around rage dropping if i couldnt attack i was playing a straight barb as in pure barb only leveled class so loosing spell prog wasnt an issue for me, i was just replying to the guy that was on about taking dmg to prolong rage not to the idea of a druid bear barb specifically.
i love that the moondruid at lvl2 litterally gets to be a nontrivial encounter for its own party XD
So what’s your opinion on the barbarian’s unarmored defense being active in wild shape? If you keep your class features, but your physical stats are replaced then I’ve been allowing the Druid’s AC to shift.
Yeah, don’t know why he didn’t mention it. You should be able to use unarmored defense with the bear’s statistics. It has +3 Con, so an AC of 13. Not much, but much better than 11.
Its pretty much +1 for most forms; I don't think its really relevant when the AC is still garbage and Reckless Attack is going to make it even more redundant.
Brown Bear isn't unarmored. It has 'natural armor' which does not allow you to use unarmored defense, same as a tortle
@@warmwaterpenguin When you have multiple ways to calculate AC, you can choose which you use. Unarmored defense simply says when you are not wearing armor, not when you are unarmored, e.g. when you’re AC is calculated simply as 10+Dex.
It's just win more. You think that is worth of being behind 3 levels of spell progression?
I’m glad you’re doing a Wild Shape series. I’ve wanted to make a good character who fights in Wild Shape for ages and the best I’ve managed is “not deadweight.”
Hrm I wanted to hear at least 20 seconds of advice on what you'd do after level 4 if someone decides they want to go forward with it anyway. I hope we hear that in the upcoming wildshape videos.
Also, as a general comment for 2023, I know you don't focus on magic items because you can't assume them for a given game. That said, magic items remain a meaningful part of this game, I strongly suspect they will be more prominent with ONED&D, so it would be nice to hear some thoughts on the kinds of magic items a particular build should strive for sometimes. I know an awful lot of DMs ask their players "What would be your PC's wishlist for magic items" or have a way to craft magic items in their games. It would be nice if these optimization videos provided a bit of guidance on being able to answer that wishlist question.
Interesting point. I'm generally of the opinion that "Sure, you can make anything work if the DM just hands you the perfect magic items." But I guess I forget how many people actually play that way.
Referring strictly to optimization as it applies to the multiclass and development of a Druid/Barbarian this video forsakes much despite claiming to do critical analysis of the build and citing wildshape character multiple times. If you stick strictly to theme and only do bear shapes, yes all stated discussion applies. If you however look at optimization of a Druid/Barbarian wildshape character CR 2 forms and beyond still continue to offer superior options alongside a 3rd level in Barbarian grants while raging via Totem Barbarian and ironically Bear Totem resistance to all damage except Psychic in a race agnostic character.
Magic Items you want something like Eldritch Claw Tattoo or Insignia of Claws. And if you go more for Barbarian after extra attack you want to start looking at Moorbounder, which does 4d4+4 damage on single attack. Still when you go to higher levels, the problems are still there and after level ~8-9 you are not going to be much of a powerhouse.
If you use a weapon, the answer 95% of the time is a Dragon's Wrath weapon. There are some exceptions, like a Vorpal Sword or a Holy Avenger.
Hi friend my post mentions a few things an options I took to optimize upto level 13, the craziest level for this build, earth elemental plus rage= I can't kill you and you can kill anything time to end the campaign lol
I would just like to say that the bearbarian has one hue benefit which is flavor. The ability to play as an actual tribal shaman is really cool
My bearbearian was a feral female halfling. She wouldn't do much fighting in her normal form. But what's great with this build is that you really only need one good stat! Just have a good Wisdom. Everything else is just flavor and allows you to play however you like. (Also she had an extra level of badassery because she was from Chult and could wild shape into dinosaurs!)
Actual real life tribe shamans weren't warriors.
I really love the breakdown, better than any I've seen. When you do your lvl 6 moon druid dmg report vs BearBarb early in the video, I dont think you're including that you could be concentrating on call lightning or spike growth for extra damage that you can't do while raging as a bearbarb. Also something people seem to overlook is that you can't communicate verbally with your party in wildshape. I'd argue it'd be pretty tough while raging too. Now you're raging and wild shaped?... Maybe this isn't an issue at your table, but it has been at mine. Having played a moon druid/goo warlock(telepathy) I've had multiple times where I've lost my concentration even with warcaster. This is the time Rage would be awesome. Start out doing as much dmg/healing/control as you'd like with a concentration spell. With your low armor you're going to get hit. If you lose concentration but still have lots of hp in wild shape, rage it up. Bonus action spell slot heals. Resistance, reckless attack. If you get invocations in warlock you can get mage armor, which I believe carries over to wild shape giving you a pretty solid consistent AC boost. I have Hellish Rebuke for when they knock me out of wild shape. Armor of Agathys and Longstrider are also great spells to stack up before you wild shape. You can be a little mad, or just sacrifice your chr if you don't want to pick up Eldritch Blast as a cantrip for when/if you run out of wild shape. I will also comment that just because it's called the "BarBearian" doesn't mean you have to feel restricted to being a bear. When you hit higher levels, there's no reason to not take a different, non-bear wild shape if it is the best for the situation and available to you. Great video, thanks again!
If you go 6 lvls into Druid to get Elemental forms you can become immune to exhaustion which then allows you to frenzy without penalty for three attacks but I haven’t done the math on whether that is any good. Just an observation.
The damage Elementals do is still negletable. It's not worth to be 3 levels behind of spell progression.
This is an exciting series. Wild shape is unequivocally cool, but seems more utility that actual combat effective.
I think War Cleric would be a good way to transition between the martial and spellcaster sides of this build. Level 1 it gives you a way to attack with your bonus action with natural weapons that scales off your Wis, level 2 it gives you a limited use accuracy boost, and the whole time your continuing your spell progression.
I really wish Barkskin wasn't concentration
Cleric/Druid is one of those concepts I always love to see!
This is a good video, and you're absolutely right that this doesn't get talked about enough.
The main thing I think you missed in the Pro column is the added versatility it gives you. Your assumption that you have to pick between a raging bear or a Concentration spell is correct, but not necessarily a weakness. Ot just means it's on you to decide, each battle what resources are required to win in the most efficient way.
You have 2 LR resources in your spell slots and rages, and 2 SR resources in your wild shapes.
It stands to reason that the LR resources need to be selected with the most care.
Every battle is different. You might need to tank for your frontlines while they fall back, or you might just need to faerie fire or entangle and control with thorn whip.
Either way, the best feat for a druid is resilient Con
A cool build I’ve been looking at is armorer artificer + moon druid. With a generous interpretation of the rules, you can wear your guardian armor while wildshaped into a dire wolf. This gives you magic plate mail AC (if druids can wear metal) and int based attacks that will scale as you level.
You then take mobile and dual wielder to get a 60 foot evasive move speed and 3 attacks per turn with (probable) advantage, giving 2-3 opponents disadvantage to attack anyone but you, except that you’re going to run away so they can’t get to you.
The damage really struggles at level 4 and 5, which isn’t great, but you’re back to respectability at 6+ in addition to providing a strong tank role.
If you know that you are going to be hit you can wildshape as an action and then rage as a BA since that resolves the BA clog sometimes.
This doesn't save the build, but something interesting I found is that the unarmored defence feature from barbarian would ALSO apply to wild shape, so the brown bear would have an AC of 13 rather than 11 thanks to 10 + con + dex.
As well as this, I've looked at the druid 15/barbarian 5 multiclass to get extra attack on the brontosaurus. Extra attack doesn't stack with multi attack, but it would allow the brontosaurus to make 2 attacks since it normally only makes 1
Hey Chris, what do you think about using animal forms that don’t have multi attack? If you were to use a giant hyena or a giant elk, they only can make one attack per turn normally, would you let them attack twice with the extra attack feature using their natural weapons? What if we took a third level of barbarian for berserker for 3 of those attacks? Overall would a better animal improve this build enough? Change into all kinds of rabid animals, the Berzooker!
Also for Frankenstein builds you could always go with the Boomzerker. An armorer artificer/ ancestral? barbarian mix that brings the THUNDER!!! You can use strength instead of intelligence for the thunder gauntlets and it would give you a nice taunt like ability.
Yes a wildshaped druid can use Extra Attack on their animal forms that only have single attacks such as a Giant Constrictor. Do note that means 5 levels into Barbarian and that is a hefty investment.
Wait, you’re telling me that attacks with bear hands aren’t unarmed strikes? This ruins my hopes for a Kung Fu Panda Druid/monk build.
I've been playing a similar build for the last few months in a level 1-12 campaign (currently level 8) and it's been working out pretty well but my progression has been a bit different: I started out taking Beast barbarian levels 1-6 and then switched to Moon druid 2, using the druid features for utility, out of combat spell casting, and the combat wild shape as a panic button if I need more health. The flavor of the two classes works really well together as a "druidic warrior shapeshifter" character and I've been able to stay competitive with damage compared to the rest of the party (not a highly-optimized campaign or party but still one where we're doing deadly encounters, etc).
I think treating the build as a barbarian-tank first, druid second is the way to go, unless you're specifically playing at level 4/5. Usually in combat I use barbarian rage and beast rage forms to deal damage but the shapeshifting from wild shape has been useful every session out of combat for utility alone and has also saved my life from the health gain. I plan on finishing this campaign out with a barbarian 8 / druid 4 split but if we progressed further taking druid levels until 20 (B8/D12) just because there isn't much damage different between a barbarian at level 6 and one at level 20.
Just figured I'd offer my experience since this is really close to the build I've been running and enjoying a lot the last ~7 months.
I played a gestalt style homebrew for 5e once and I made a lv 20 Moon Druid/lv 17 Totem Warrior Barbarian/lv 2 Paladin/lv 1 Life Cleric. From lv 3 to 20 was very effective and fun.
So one thing I think you missed is that while extra attack doesn't stack with multi attack, it does still work while in wild shape. This allows the character to take forms that don't have multi attack and still get a second hit in the round. The advantage here is that creatures without multi attack tend to have slightly better stats to compensate.
So there's that
A build I’ve been considering is moon druid 2/astral monk x. Essentially you are a monk with 74 temporary hit points per short rest, and while you have the temps your speed gets better and you get pack tactics. You can also concentrate on spells, in case you want to.
My reading of Unarmoured Defence makes this build seem even stronger at level four than presented here. I don't believe that natural armour counts as wearing armour, so you could use the bear's+0 DEX and +3 CON to give yourself an AC of 13, which still isn't good but is better than the base 11.
That would also mean that it falls off even harder when you get to cave bear at druid 6, as your AC wouldn't increase at all relative to the brown bear form.
Came to say this about unarmored defence. Great words you put out!
From the description of unarmored defense:
"While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier."
So regardless of what a creature's natural armor is, unarmored defense starts with that 10. It's the same reason you can't be a barbarian lizardfolk and have an AC of 13+DEX+CON.
@@shanebernier2483 and both of the bear's con is 3 so 10+0+3=13 like he said vs the 11 and 12 respectively of the bears at base it's an upgrade
You can choose whichever armor equation is better RAW.
Natural armor is not listed in the unarmored defense equation, so is not counted if you choose to use unarmored defense. You'd still get dex and +3 con, as you note, so your 13 is correct.
It's important to make this distinction, as some think you'd add the 3 to your natural armor, which would give a 14, which is not the case.
Another example I've seen is someone try a monk/barbarian, and use both types of armored defense to add wisdom and con to AC, which also doesn't work for players.
I went Monk for an Unarmored Defense that's based on a stat that doesn't change with form and synergizes with Druid. Added Life Cleric for Lifeberries. I essentially tanked Str, Dex, Int, and Con as much as I could because they were worthless anyway and concentrated on Wisdom. (My Dex is 13 for multiclassing reasons.) All of my animal ACs are pretty good and my monk gives me extra movement on each of those forms. My second best stat is Charisma, which allows me a host of other multiclassing options. Because why not. Barbarian would be rough to add to the mix because it makes it just too MAD. It just doesn't match up very well on Ability Scores, but it'd be fun to try.
Very nice new series, looking forward to it!
On the Moon Druid Wild Shape: you could also do it as an action since you don't loose this regular class feature. This means you could wildshape and rage in turn 1 - obviously for the cost of not doing any damageon turn 1.
You better hope you get attacked then, because if you don't attack, you could lose your rage on your next turn.
@@TreantmonksTemple Yep, that's right. It doesn't come without a trade off.
@@TreantmonksTemple That's not exactly how I read the rule on Rage.
"It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then."
In my opinion, turns are something you take in combat, so if you rage on your first turn, your rage lasts until the end of your second turn, if you at that point STILL haven't attacked or taken dmg. This ONLY applies to a barbarian that rages on their first turn imo.
If this is not how the rules are interpreted, the only alternative I see, is that a barbarian that rages and doesn't take dmg or attack during THAT turn (not round), will lose their rage immediately after their turn ends, and will take full dmg from any attack after their turn ends. This will imo apply in either case, to any barbarian that rages on any turn that isn't their first.
If it’s the first turn and you rage, don’t attack anything, then it ends because you didn’t attack anything on a previous turn.
@@binolombardi well it says since your last turn, and since you haven't had a last turn yet, I'd take the generous interpretation and say it lasts at least until the end of your second turn.
But yes, if you wanna be technical about it, every 6-second span could be counted as a turn and since you didn't attack or take dmg right before combat started, you would lose your rage immediately.
i think the play here if you wanna be more effective after level 4 is to continue more with barbarian instead of more druid
Dire wolf might be better for survivability and damage if you get extra attack from either barbarian levels or fighter levels as the bite is an attack option so can be done twice. It also has an AC of 14, pack tactics and better HP, meaning hit less frequently due to no reckless attacks and higher AC. Giant Boar is also good as an option if you’re only going a little way into Druid with its relentless ability being more enhanced by the Barbarian’s rage ability.
I’d consider more lvls in barbarian, two levels in Druid and rage on the first turn without wildshaping and then turning into a beast on round two. It’s still potent, keeps rage up and makes you a tank. As with all wild shapes though it will not scale very well so you use wild shape at higher levels for different things than dealing damage in combat.
I'm curious on how you plan to optimize the wild shape. I don't know if you do this kind of thing but as a gestalt character would a barbarian druid stay good as it did at lv 4? Or since wildshape had inherently poor returns does even gestalt rules not help it?
I've been toying with the idea of going spores druid 8 and wild magic barb 6, that way I could give myself a spell slot back or use gwm with an extra d3 to hit. Extra thp and damage from halo of spores/symbiotic entity seem fun too. The character I'm paying is a reborn so it would have some Last of Us mushroom zombie flavor.
I found it interesting how you pointed out the advantage of being able to cast a concentration spell before wildshaping, but during your analysis there was no mention of this in the analytics. Where's Moonbeam or Flaming Sphere during the 6th Level calculation?
You can even included the analysis of how long concentration will be maintained based upon the average damage being received and barbarian proficiency with Constitution.
You can't concentrate on spells during rage
Oh! I'm waiting for the video with Wild Shape optimization. I never used moon druid in a character build because it feels too strong in a low level party and weak in a high level party (not in a 20th level party, obviously, because the "infinite HP", but its a long long way to get there). I thought using Mark of Shadow elf in a 7th moon druid build, so we could use greater invisibility with Wild shape. This will enhance our damage output due advantage and virtually enhance the AC because everything will have disadvantage to hit you. Also it will free you to take Mobile feat, because AoO. But it's a setting specific race and not every DM will allow Mark of Shadow Elf in their Champaign. I'm curious and glad because you always do a great job, Chris, I love math and also love D&D! Thank you!
> so what do you do after level 4?
The answer to that and every other similar question is always 16 levels of Wild Magic Sorcerer.
My friend has a homebrew campaign setting where the level cap is 5 and I was planning to go for this build and rounding it up with a 3rd level of Barbarian to get the bear totem on top of the bear form.
I have a player in my game that plays this character. He sees himself as a druid that likes to fight. The barbarian levels are just for hp. He took 1 level of war cleric because his has high wisdom. This has significantly added to his number of attacks. He plays utility druid, scouting and such. It's a fun character that isn't necessarily optimised but he always has ways to contribute, both in and out of combat.
I'm a fan of the Drunk. Or Dronk? Druonk? DruidX/Monk2. Maybe more monk, haven't dug into that too much, but AC 16+ for wildshapes, bonus action unarmed strikes, maintain concentration, and a variety of subclass options for Monk if you take more levels.
I actually think monk1 is better. I don't think giving up a druid level is worth 2 ki and flurry
@@cooperton4949 I like the bonus action dodge and dash, really. Plus, if you take their level and go astral self you can turn into a bird with 10 ft long arms then punches people. It's mostly hilarious
After Level 4, push to Barbarian 5 taking Path of the Bear Totem Warrior to basically get resistance to all damage (take Kalashtar race for psychic resistance and to be able to communicate in wild shape) and Extra Attack. Once you're at Druid 2 Barbarian 5, use Giant Spider form instead to get 2 Bite Attacks. Keep raising Druid levels the rest of the way for better Beast/Elemental forms.
warlock gets you spell slots on short rest for healing, plus some utility. totem barb gives you resist all*. fighter gets everything fightery. i like barb 3/drd 2/ftr 3/lock the rest. armor of agathys doesn't require concentration, so worth casting up. has same duration as wild shape also. battle master maneuvers can be used while raging.
Longtooth Shifter Beast Barbarian 6/Spores Druid X is my favourite Barb/Druid, flavoured as a vampire (Spires can be grave mould). The temp hp scale better because of rage, and the necrotic damage on hits is better with more attacks (4 when raging and shifted). Animate dead gives you a non-concentration spell to blow your slots on that can contribute to further tankiness and damage. It's not perfect either, but I like the imagery a lot, and Druid spells and abilities strangely for a Vampiric theme.
Have not finished video. Here is my guess before doing so. The bear barbarian is phenomenal, borderline overpowered, at low levels. Then falls behind hard in the midgame and barely keeps up with the monk in high level play. I would probably try to find some way to be able to cast Armor of Agathys if I was to take this long at all. The resistance doubles the hp, and it gives a use for spell slots for the full casting Druid. Though they could only cast it before combat.
what is kind of funny is rage limitations imagine a real barbarian saying," Sorry guys I am no longer aloud to get really mad and hulk out I am fresh out of anger so now I can toss flowers"
Rage says “if you can cast spells, you can’t concentrate on them while raging”. Wild Shape specifies “you can’t cast spells”. Therefore you can concentrate on a spell while raging *if* you are in Wild Shape first. Fully legal RAW, and I believe RAI as well or they would have left out the otherwise-unnecessary “if you can cast spells” clause from the Rage rules.
I'm hoping that 1DnD will fix wildshape and moon druid. That would also fix most barbearian issues. I'm thinking something like:
- template based wildshape instead of using monster manual
- use your mental stats in place of your physical stats
- temporary hit points based on druid level. When those run out, you revert to your normal form.
- form can be up to large size at certain level and up to huge later
- natural attack damage scales with level (less for flying forms)
- extra attack when wild shaped at level 5
- AC scales with level
- starting at various levels, you can choose special abilities and speeds like spider climb, flying, reach, swimming/breathing under water, automatic grapple, pack tactics, poison, pounce and so on.
With regards to a template I believe Wizards of the Coast kind of do. If we look at the revised Beastmaster Ranger the conpanion forms can serve as a template for scaling in damage and hit points. Now regarding the extra abilities that is an awesome idea to implement.
I would like to see wild shape limited to Moon Druids (or gettable with a Feat). And then let other druids have an animal companion or focus on more powerful spellcasting.
This is a very nice start in my opinion! You could write some good homebrew with this, or if you won’t, I might 🤔
Doesn't Treamtmonk have a video that is exactly this?
@@larstollefsen1236 I think so, that's where the idea came. I'm hoping something like that gets implemented officially. It would also be very much on the spirit of Tashas.
AC is the same between the two bear forms. You keep your unarmored defence feature from barbarian and the CON for both is +3 so you get AC 13 for both so that extra 1CR is even worse.
I played this build many times but only in adventurers League. The ability to totally rebuild your character any time before level 5 means that you can optimize a straight barbarian at levels 1&2, then rebuild as a barBEARian for 3&4 and then into your real character for 5-20.
so ive been running this build with bugbear for the 10 foot reach and powerful build. powerful build means in bear form i can lift 1200 lbs, wizard casts spider climb on me and we walked into a dungeon backwards lol. its amazing, at lvl 11 right now, and i did 3 barbarian (totem bear), 4 druid, and 3 fighter (battle master). My dps is ridiculous and having surprise attack from new bugbear means when you get lucky you can essentially one shot a massive creature w superiority dice with action surge, which i have done multiple times. having spells like spike growth an entangle help me contribute to some combat where dps isnt the best and control and better option. probably one of my most fun characters ive played, so versatile and fun. would recommend cause it can also double as a kung fu panda build.
I think that if you would have a feat to give additional uses of Rage then this build could function as Druid2/Barbarian2/Druid16.
It would have the diminishing returns of the Moon Druid but still get level 9 spells and CR6 Wild Shape. Just focus on spells that do not need concentration. Wild Shape with Rage will stay a potent enough option if you keep adding Moon Druid levels.
But you will need more than 2x Rage per long rest somehow.
Simple and age-old solution: call it the “Bearbarian”.
I feel like there is something extra satisfying about optimizing a flawed build, such as the Bearbearian or an elementalist (fire only or such.) Whether it gets played or not.
Great video, Chris! I’ve run into a similar problem with barbarian multiclassing trying to make a barbarian-rogue. I’m curious what you might say about it, considering the only real way it works is to be a strength based rogue
Interesting, so you're dual-wielding finesse weapons while raging?
The consistency of the sneak attack + reckless attack combo does sound quite intriguing.
Although it's hard to say whether this is worth forgoing the slew of heavy weapon support you would usually have as a barb.
Cool concept in any case!
I know this might get talked about in future video's perhaps, but just wanted to ask (mainly since I'm DMing my first game in 2 weeks and one of the players is going to roleplay Po, which is awesome). Would you say instead of going for the Barb, going monk would be a good alternative able to scale better, if I allow (if it isn't already working RAW) Flurry of Blows to work in Wild Shape, using the natural melee attack (so not any bite or claws from the bear itself)?
For context, we play at level 8.
Happy to hear, and i'll obviousy stay tuned for your next video's!
Hi. All Class features work while in Wild Shape. Which means that the free Bonus Action attack that Monks get (as well as Flurry of Blows), Unarmored Movement, Slowfall, Evasion, Unarmored Defense, etc. should apply. It might not be optimal, but it would still work, and would probably be quite fun.
As always, great video. I might have missed it but one of the benefits of moon druid is being able to use your spell slots for recovery in wild shape which does seem to be compatible with rage, although this is a limited benefit and not great in comparison to third level spells, but an extra d8 per slot level is nice defensively especially if you can combine it with rage. I think for me the way to try and keep this build going is to focus on barbarian levels as no later level wildshapes really feel worth the change, and use wildshapes as a defensive ability occasionally. This really strays away from the idea that the playstyles is tied to your identity, but worked alright for a bear totem barbarian who just liked bears
Flavorwise, a bear totem turning into bears is very nifty.
Hey mate, just checking in after your last OGL video. Your concern on switching rule sets etc. I think it may be a really interesting opportunity to develop your own system with some other significant content creators. You would be an expert then as you helped build it. Just a suggestion. I know the community I'm a part of would move instantly especially if you collude with the dungeon dudes DND shorts etc. Either way I love your content and will continue to support you regardless of WOTC's poor decision making.
What I like doing on Moon Druid, is taking 1 level of MONK at 7th. This allows you to use the Monk's Unarmored Defense calculation in your Wild Shape form. And since Wild Shape allows you to retain your mental stats, and class features, you can get much more respectable AC. Yea, you can't use martial arts by raw (which I think is stupid), but the AC bump is QUITE good, and it gives you enough extra defense that you can live, AND doesn't impede your spell casting. And if you can get your DM to allow you to have an Eldritch Claw Tattoo... it's pretty bonkers.
Of course, if the rule allowed it, now I could call you po and learn the secret of that soup.
But, this is something a lv1 barb would give you aswell (and the barb version is pretty powerful for bear form)
Barbarian 1 or 2 sucks for druids. Barbarian 3 is where it becomes a good multiclass though because of bear totem, wild shape while having resistance to everything and increasing AC? That's what makes barbarian a good multiclass. You'll eventually become an elemental with resistance to everything and more AC because of unarmored defense ._. And you didn't even mention that you can also use items such as amulet of health and insignia of claws while in wild shape. That in itself is a boost to damage, health and AC.
I'm playing a moon druid... Can barely wait for your next video.
A whole lot of Moon Druid focused videos are on the way
@@TreantmonksTemple Awesome! I'm lvl 4 now, but thinking about starting to use your Beast Form HB starting lvl 5 or 6. Lets see if it is not necessary anymore with your next videos.
When you're out of rages, you do still have the Druid spell list at your disposal. Definitely a limitation, but you've got options.
Would love to see a Frankenstein build using an order cleric and glamour bard. Synergistic the abilities to get your team to move and strike.
As for a pun....GLAM-OURDER CLERIC
A video breaking down the strongest characters at each level would be cool
Nice job Chris! I love this build!
I have played this build to level 15 in Adventurers League. My char is the front line for the party. Lizardfolk barb 5/Druid 9. Started with druid as Chris suggests for Int/Wis saves. Took the tough feat. AC 15 w/shield 17. Use the CR 2 creature wildshape into giant constrictor snake with costricting strike to restrain enemies for the party until CR3 giant snapping turtle AC 17 HP 75 or giant scorpion (2 grappling attacks). I've had alot of fun being a damage sponge. AT lvl 15 with tough, char has 155 hp plus 2 wildshapes of giant snapping turtle 75 hp x2 (per short rest)= 305 hp w/rage (1/2 dmg) = 610 hp.
My char picked up a belt of hill giant strength and a staff of striking. My char can do damage in humanoid form or tank in beast form and do damage control.
Check out Min/Max Munchkin's build outline here that Chris references in some of this video.
ruclips.net/video/fXyPEHAVBoA/видео.html
The one advantage I didn't hear you mention is unarmored defense. The brown bear's ac is only 11, but with unarmored defense, it's boosted to a 13. This isn't much, but since wildshape keeps all mental stats, monk/moon druid allows you to be a very tanky character. Since many spiders have high dex and we can keep wisdom, I suggest spider boxing as a replacement for bearbarian. Flurry of blows should still apply!
Natural weapon attacks are not unarmored strikes unless the attack template says so, like in the minotaur player species.
So, most monster attacks are not viable for flurry of blows.
@@ODDnanref Perhaps use the Way of Astral Self then? If I am not mistaken, the astral arms could still work for that.
Dude, you just caused me to spend like four hours (cumulative) thinking about 3-4 different druid/monk builds...lol
Using Giant Toad and Giant Constrictor Snake with Ascendant Dragon monk would be kinda funny. Restraining and then spitting fire over them and others.
If your DM allows, the Ice Spiders with Long Death monk would be neat. The unarmored defense should mean that your armor would be up to 18 in wildshape. Just kinda low on wildshape HP.
And another DM fiat option is dinosaurs. CR1 Clawfoot, CR1 Deinonychus, CR2 Allosaurus, CR3 Ankylosaurus. They all look like pretty solid options with their monster abilities. Again, Ascendant Dragon could be kinda thematic and fun.
@@ODDnanref That's right. You can't, for example, use a Dire Wolf Bite attack with Flurry of Blows. You can still do Flurry of Blows and make regular unarmed attacks though.
So DireWolf bite as your attack action, then spend your ki to flurry and make two unarmed strikes into a possibly prone enemy.
@@ODDnanref I'm a bit lost as to why you think you can't use flurry of blows in wildshape, according to the monk class "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action." it doesn't say that you have to take the attack action with monk weapons so as long as you attack you may make a flurry of blows.
Barbearian (and the coffee lock) are great examples of build that SEEMS brokenly OP, but if you do analyse them they sucks so hard.
BarBearian:
yeah sure moon druid at level 2-4 are broken OP and have WAY TOO MuCH HP (2 wild shape with 30ish HP each). Barbarian of the bear totem at level 3 are doubling that HP (with resistance to all damage).
so what happen when you put you get a unkillable CR 1 monster fighting CR 5 creature. Sure you are super difficult to kill, but you do next to no damage. Why attack the cute little bear with 30 ish HP and resistance to everything but who deal half the damage of the rogue who can be squished in 2 hits?
you obtained CR 2 form once you reach druid level 6 (so character level 9 if you took only 3 barbarian level or level 11 if you reached level 5 barbarian for extra attack since I believe they do affect your animal form if it doesn't already have multi attack
but a CR2 at level 9, CR 3 at level 12, CR 4 at level 15 and CR 5 at level 18... your damage profile will be useless, even with that +2 rage damage bonus.
Even a CR 4 or CR 5 beast HP doubled with resistance and even with the improved barbarian unarmored AC on your CR 5 creature will die super quickly
just going straight barbarian or straight moon druid would have been more useful since at least the straight moon druid will be able to concentrate on spells while wild shaped. A wild shape earth elemental shooting sunbeam then hiding underground... can be super effectif
In type, I call this build “Bar-bear-ian,” but in speech, I call it “Bear-barian.”
Something of note is that Extra Attack does benefit the bear form slightly. You don’t have to use Multiattack, and can instead use your Claw attack in conjunction with your Extra Attack feature to make two Claw attacks. It only bumps up your average damage by 3, but it’s technically an improvement.
I’ve seen others here make mention the barbarians Unarmored Defense improving the bears AC. Again, it’s not much, but it is something. To get more out of it, you could roll up a Wildhunt Shifter and use their shifting ability while in your bear form. Then, you could Reckless Attack without granting enemies within 30 feet advantage to hit you back. Makes a +2 AC improvement go a little further. Unfortunately, shifting is another bonus action, so it isn’t something that would come up too often, but having quick access to temp hp will make your rages go a little further if you’re saving wild shape uses.
@TreantmonksTemple Hey Chris! I have a question that's bothered me for a while and I'm hoping you can clear it up. Do you allow druids in general, but in this case, Moon Druids, to take the 'Multiattack' action?
As stated by the PHB Multiattack is not an action that a player can take, and, looking at the description of wildshape:
"Wild Shape -Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before." So you do not become the beast, you only assume it's form, and, It also goes on to say:
"While you are transformed, the following rules apply:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them."
At no point do you become the beast like other effect grant, ie. Polymorph, you're assuming it's statistics, not replacing yourself with it. Much like we assume the game statistics for a weapon that we're wielding; Club(d6), Longsword(d8), Greatsword(2d6) these items transform our damage dice based on what we choose to wield. At no point are we the club or sword, it's a modifier to fill in the calculation of damage.
I like to point this out because in the same subclass, the ability gained at 10th level has a much more direct approach to the effect:
"Elemental Wild Shape - At 10th level, you can expend two uses of Wild Shape at the same time to transform into an air elemental, an earth elemental, a fire elemental, or a water elemental."
By the writing, the PC transforms into the Creature, in this case - Polymorph. You're using both slots of the ability Wild Shape to create a different outcome. Or is my reading on that faulty?
Sorry for the long question! It's created much debate and I'm curious for you to weigh in, if you'd like!
Of course, it's always worth noting that, while most build guides assume you will never get magic items, talking with your DM about it (especially one that knows the weaknesses of certain builds) can smooth over that transition.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't just say "Hey! I will run into the issue of not ever getting a magic weapon, so if at some point I could find an Insignia of Claws (or just say 'magic item that boosts my natural weapons'), that'd be great!"
There are plenty of magic items that take Druid wild shaping up a notch, and I feel like ignoring magic items in build guides altogether is maybe a step in the wrong direction. The base game may not assume magic items, but I've never played at a table that just didn't have any at all. I mean, the normally very mediocre Barrier Tattoo becomes FANTASTIC on a character like this. Same goes for the typically monk-only Bracers of Defense.
I mean, sure, some issues just can't be fully resolved (Wild Shape attacks not scaling with proficiency is a HUGE issue), but I don't think we should leave out "talk with your DM about these possible magic items that could address some of the most glaring issues". After all, there seems to be this expectation that martial classes will eventually get a magic weapon.
Maybe a mirthful leaps satyr could help you take damage or deal damage for turn 1 rage and wildshape, guaranteed to that it will reach the 10ft required to take fall damage as long as your dm rules that mirthful leaps is usable in bear form. You can rage then wildshape, jump 9ft high and add mirthful leaps on top for a min of 10ft and 1d6 fall damage, so will have taken damage to maintain rage unless you roll a one.
Just be a tundra storm heralds.
The numbers look low but over a fight stack up.
By level 5 It basically just gives barbarian inspiring leaders feat but it can easily negate 18-24 damage to you every fight and 9-12 to your Allies.
It also opens up your feat choice since you don't got to use a feat to weaponize your bonus action.
Just efficient
One thing that would not surprise me, and I think might be an improvement for the long-term strength and playability of Druid in general and Moon Druid in particular, is if WOTC redesigns Wild Shape to use a collection of specific stat blocks in the style of the Tasha summon spells or the revised Beast Master Ranger. Each form would come with its own set of physical stats and different abilities. For example, there might be one form called Prowler that gets bonuses to stealth, or a Hunter form that's more combat oriented, etc. There would be text about how each form takes the shape of an appropriate Beast, since flavor is free, and as the Druid levels up the forms scale with them, getting extra HP and/or armor, swimming or flying speeds, extra or modified attacks for combat-oriented forms, etc.
Doing this would allow the designers to let the Wild Shape scale more strongly with the Druid's level without having to worry about the possibly of an unintended interaction with it and a beast stat block causing an overpowered combination. And it would also reduce the bookkeeping for the Druid player by allowing them to select the form they want without having to flip through the Monster Manual to find an appropriate beast that has the abilities they are looking for while fitting whatever restrictions they still have for their level.
Once you get Elemental Wildshape at level 10, you can turn into an elemental that is immune to exhaustion. Frenzy Berserker synergy! You just have to get to level 13 first lol.
My non professional opinion has always been to go barbarian 5 after level 4 and pick creatures that only have one attack since fast movement and multi attack should carry over as well as unarmored defense giving you a lot of options and an additional rage. From level 7 it gets trickier. The Ankylosaurus is quite strong but it takes a while to unlock if it's even available. It's a decent power spike though.
One other thing that makes this build even more sad is the fact that neither version of Wild Shape doesn't let your proficiency bonus be used in those forms. The best you can do is use your bonus in a skill or saving throw you're proficient in, which is the only instance of using your bonus. If it were a case of allowing you to use your proficiency bonus for everything in that form, I don't think it would scale as badly. It will still be bad compared to a straight Barbarian and Druid, but at least it's better than how it is by default. Still, it's fun if you pull it off.
Would love to see some sort of Monk Paladin build, a real holy monk, a Honk! It would be tough to make work with all the necessary ability scores! Fighting while holding his hands, he could headbutt smite his foes with his shaved head.
Two levels of fighter for action surge, so you can wild shape, rage and attack all on the first round of combat. Second wind can also gives a tiny bit of extra hp to help keep you in bear form. Take a third level of barbarian for bear totem and you'll at least have a huge pool of hit points that are reliably doubled by rage. I'm certain it's outperformed by straight martials and has the same shrug factor of what to do with later levels, but if someone has a campaign that stretches from tier 1 into tier 2 this is probably the path forward with this particular build.
Being a shifter or tabaxi would give claw or bite weapons with which you are proficient. Wouldnt these work well with the wild shape proficiency rules? Increasing your hit rate até least?
I mean, grab another barbarian level, pick bear totem, and then roll druid the rest of the way. And pick other wildshapes. Can still claim bearbarian from the totem. 😁
yes, i agree that moon druid scaling is all over the place. But are there no other forms to consider?
Giant constrictor snake has more HP than a cave bear, a single attack that is either 2d6+4+2 with reach, or 2d8+4+2 with grapple and restrain.
A rhinoceros has about the same HP, and a charge with a knockdown attached to it.
Just because its called a "barbearian", it disregards every other wildshape?
IT disregards because it takes long time for druid to reach those forms if multiclassing.
I know it could be interpreted that Unarmored Defense doesn't mix with wild shape, but wasn't there a sage advice that it should?
I think you are selling the “Bear” part of the character too much. At level 6, the character could change into a different creature like the giant constrictor snake. It has 18 more hit points and better to hit and damage bonuses.
My BarBearian only took one level of barbarian first... this gives me con saves natural armor and rage. The con saves and running around naked with high dex are what makes it good for my moon druid... the rages are rarely used but often save my life.
Is Barbarian 5 Druid 2 still strong for Dire Wolf Atk x 2 while in rage… but yea, not a bear sadly😅😢
I don’t think the pronunciation of BarbArian and BarbEArian is anywhere near the same. Just like war and wear are not the same word.
Still support you, but might need to start looking for a new TTRPG with the recent WotC fiasco and the OGL.
I understand. I will be branching out into some non D&D stuff on this channel as well, but I do these videos a fair bit ahead, so not immediately.
I always ruled for martial arts that since your beast attacks are unarmed, they technically count as monk weapons for your bonus action attack. Combine that with the increase to AC by your wisdom modifier, you've got a decently augmented wild shape in tier 2 play. Once you add elemental wild shape multiclassing is irrelevant.
Honestly, I just really like the concept of Kung Fu Panda in dnd so to hell with RAW
I ever wish you did this video. Tks bro.
I prefer to rage round 1.
And lvl 3, I think this build is already broken.
Would not the "hp",after lvl 4 , make it have a nich using "tank" features?
Like going ancestral barbarian 3 to 6. And them going back to druid for utility and spellcasting out of the combat or when you don't have/wanna rage.
But after all, I just think that this build is too much strong in the lvls that it is strong, and give too much trouble to tge dm to challenge without kill the rest of the party. And that's the lvls of most campaigns stop, tier 1.
Even if the party goes from 10 encounters, how many of them you really need to rage?
The triple hp(bear,bear,pc) and double atk already(with adv in lvl4) are really strong already.
Not to mention if that person plays as a wildhunt shifter. (while shifted you have advantage on wisdom checks, and no enemy can get advantage on their attacks within 30 ft. Add in the number of D4s equal pb and you'll be even harder to deal with. I actually like adding in the athlete feat here so you can go prone at the end of your turn, to avoid ranged attacks from outside the 30ft and then get back up for only 5ft of movement at the start of your turn)
I will mention the Elemental form for Druid is nice, but that's a long road to reach at a total level of 12.
Appreciate the in-depth look, this build is clearly not without its flaws, and that's a good thing.
Elemental form also pretty much removes the need to rage, making the barb levels even more dead weight later on.
You can still Action to Wildshape as a Moon Druid, the feature just adds Bonus Action as an option. So you can Action Shape and Bonus Rage in the same turn no issues.
Well, one issue. Rage requires you attack or take damage before your next turn, so you better hope you take damage.
@@TreantmonksTemple you get 2 turn to effectively attack. As long as you attack on your next turn after you’re all good.
It’s still a full dedicated turn to setup though which is a pretty big deal on its own.
@RisenRen if you read what rage does it says attack or take damage since your last turn. Since you didn't attack or take damage before this turn your rage will end on turn one if you rage without attacking or being attacked.
There is nothing in the ability description that says you are guranteed to have it for 2 turns.
@@Starguardianbard uhh that only matters after rage has been activated. Turn 1: Shape/Rage. Turn 2: Attack and be fine.
My friends and I call this the BearBarian
I played a Harengon BarBearian but played off the rage element as him contracting rabies. By level 6 we had finally got around to curing him and he went to straight Druid and lost the barbarian levels because of it.
Is chris trying to make every barbarian pun and is this his way announcing he is a dad?
I just hope you can bear it
Literally perfect timing, I am currently planning to run a Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign w/ a BearBarian as one of the side villains. I agree with your review of this combo from a PC perspective, however, I feel when you consider this combo for a villain PC (where I prioritize high hp and defense tools, "Tanky") it becomes much more appealing. You essentially have a way to instantly heal a large amount of temp hp and also resistances to damage from Bear Totem. This is assuming the villain PC has a static level that is higher level than the PCs therefore the combo doesn't necessarily suffer from bad progression or drop off points.
I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts or ideas on "Tanky" villain combos/builds and also what YOUR thoughts are from this different perspective. Much love from your Provincial Neighbor in S'toon SK!
I like this video a lot, especially pointing out the fact, as is with many multiclass builds i see, they suck at some lower levels, sometimes even up to like lvl 5 or 6. And most games dont go beyond lvl 11 so thats like 50% of the game you might be sub-optimized. So then is it even an optimized build?
I wonder how the build fares if we go for fighter past level 4. It seems like it could be helpful given it doesn't make us more MAD and it gives some cool options like second wind, action surge, maneuvers if we go for battle master etc.
A tactical bear is a scary concept.
Will we see other builds analysed?
Next: the BARDbarian?
Couldn't you use wild hunt shifter to negate the advantage of going reckless and still use a spell to up the damage? (the temp hitpoints aren't bad to have either.)
That would be 3 turns worth of bonus actions (Rage, Wildshape, Shifting)
Although you could shift and wildshape on turn one to attack and rage on turn 2, but you’d be losing a full round of attacks.
@@omous7770 I know!!! I never said that it wouldn't be quite the action economy clutter. I had considered adding it to the commend, but I had no idea wether or not someone might react to it.
So far you did not talk about unarmored defence, which is a great assest, giving a +2 to ac for the brown bear
Also multiattack on the barb makes you able to use claws 2ce instead of bite + claws, so a slight dpr increase
I played a druid 3 barb 5 at some point, and it did quite well, the ungodly amount of effective hp and path of the bear is just a blast, the damage is not that great, but oke when playing without a very optimized group.
I used this BarBEARian build to play a Werebear in a Nouvelle-France Fantasy setting 7 or 8 years ago. It was awesome to roleplay and a very good tank for the party in combat. I played a human who wildshaped exclusively into a bear. Magic and all thing supernatural were highly shunned in our very-low magic homebrew setting. On level up, we kind of reskinned a better CR creature as a bear just to make the form improve mathematically. I went from level 1 to 9 with this character and it was one of my most satisfying character of all time.
I did this though experiment once, but I wonder if you’d come to the same conclusion: is there any place where using extra attack for repeating a particular wild shape’s natural weapon attack is worth the extra level investment over just putting the levels into druid and using multi attack (probably from a higher CR form)? The only thing that came close seemed to be Giant Snapping Turtle (which means 5 barb, 9 druid - well past the sweet spot of this character and probably nowhere near an optimized character at that point).
Our Neverweakened campaign’s Tortle Barbearian Gryke just landed the deciding blow to defeat the Dragon of Icespire Peak last session!
After our Phandalorian artificer disabled Isendraug’s Cloud Chill with his Shatter grenade, Gryke dove off the deck of their damselfly ship and did a front flip buzzsaw move wielding the Dragonslayer Greatsword to decapitate the terror of Phandalin ⚔️
I’ve never played this combination, but I always had a hunch it really didn’t hold up to the hype.
So happy to see this vid! I'm currently playing a moon druid and have run into everything here plus more. I'd hope you address the lack of darkvision. I find myself using giant spider far more than brown bear simply because most dungeons are dark. Even when a light source is available as a brown bear, it's a hassle to stick so close to it. Also, the size can be tricky in a 10ft dungeon hallway. If I start in the front line, I'm quickly knocked out of wildshape due to the low ac. Our dwarven fighter will last just as long as me with his 20 ac even though I can triple his hp!
Try wearing barding
@warrenm72 I think the don/doff times would make that problematic. And it doesn't help with the lack of darkvision.
Try getting some bullseye lanterns for light (60 ft of bright light and 60 ft of dim light in a cone)
These puns are so out of control I can't even BEAR it
My love of puns has been laid bear.