This is the most liberty with the rules that I have ever seen Treantmonk take to make a build viable. The crusher / gathered swarm interaction is super fun, but tenuous. Shrugging off the need for Warcaster because most tables don't play somatic components without material components RAW is not typical on this channel. I guess what I'm saying is, thank you Treantmonk for optimizing a Nature Cleric and Swarmkeeper build, through any means necessary. :)
This build is super close to what Chris ran through the CMCC Builds Gauntlet recently! Chris changed it to be Charisma focused and changing Nature Cleric for Watchers Paladin and Swarmkeeper for Genie Warlock with Grasp of Hadar. It still uses the Spirit Guardians+Crusher+Telekinetic to get multiple instances of damage from Spirit Guardians.
Currently playing a variation of this build! I’m level 14 and it’s Fighter 2/Tempest Cleric 7(Thunderbolt Strike!)/Swarmkeeper 5. I use a Stirring Weapon Wrath Sling (lightning) and Magic Stone (for the amazing stacking of +x spell focus and +x weapon) to hit almost every time. LOVE IT.
I was really expecting the ranger’s optional class feature for druid cantrips to bring shillelagh; the nature domain really came out of left FIELD. … yeah I know that was a beach.
Love the build, and the puns! I posted this on the previous video, but my proposal for a Swarmkeeper: The Swarm of Scrolls! Swarmkeeper Ranger (3) / Arcana Cleric (17). Flavor everything as swarming books, papers, scrolls, quills, paper airplanes, library cards, etc. Use Arcana Cleric to pick up Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade. Use Ranger's Druidic Warrior Fighting Style to pick up Shillelagh and Thorn Whip. Grab Warcaster early (level 1 or 4). If enemies are close, Booming Blade and use your swarm to move five feet away or knock them far away from your party. If enemies are far away, Thorn Whip to bring them into Spirit Guardians and then Gathering Swarm to push them out the other side. Telekinetic feat if you want extra tools to play with. Character levels 1-5 are standard Cleric. 6-8 switch to Ranger (grab Absorb Elements, Goodberry, and 1 other spell). 9-20 back to Cleric. Build really comes online at character level 7 (Shillelagh + Booming Blade + Warcaster + Spirit Guardians). Power spikes at level 11 with Potent Spellcasting. And as a true capstone, you still get Arcana Cleric's bonkers Arcane Mastery at level 20. For smoother progression, go Custom Lineage. If you want to be extra tanky, go Githzerai for the Shield spell.
I have a build request or challenge if you take them. But first, thank you so much for all the videos you make, I find them very valuable to watch. Okay, the challenge: how would you make an optimized character that doesn’t reply on sight - or who is effectively blind. Blind fighting style? Auras, spells that don’t require line of sight? What optimizations exist? If you get to it, many thanks.
Great to see this build come together. Beyond the sand theme, I like that Divine Soul + Nature Cleric + Ranger has a logical thematic progression. Also, the spell list appears strong and versatile.
I've always liked the idea of using Shillelagh with a staff/quarterstaff particularly on the Swarmkeeper for the usual Spike Growth+Crusher+Swarm interactions, and maintaining a high save DC for spells which a ranger won't normally have.
Yeah... this seems like it shouldn't work. It's weird in the first place that _Crusher_ can move a creature in any direction, not just away from you, but at least you could justify it by saying you hit it in the head or something and make it stumble in that direction and you being in the way made sure you didn't pull it towards you using melee attacks from 5 feet away. (Ranged attacks and weapons with reach work strangely in conjunction with _Crusher,_ though at least the base game has no reach weapons that do bludgeoning damage. _Crusher_ it should really state "Once per turn, when you hit a creature with a *melee* attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space *that is no closer to you than where they started,* provided the target is no more than one size larger than you." and also "Once per turn, when you hit a creature with a *ranged* attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet *away* from you to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.") But having the _Crusher_ movement proc _after_ the _Gathered Swarm_ movement seems gimmicky as all hell, and I think RAW is on my side in this one: _Crusher_ specifies "(...) *when* you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it (...)", while _Gathered Swarm_ states " (...) you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, *immediately after* you hit a creature with an attack (...)". _Crusher_ is during, _Gathered Swarm_ is after. Still a cool build, though.
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin. I agree with you on how it should work, but hey this is dnd! Tons of wonky stuff going around, as written i think it should work.
@MalloonTarka ya I agree, delaying crusher until after the swarm is pretty gimmicky and immersion breaking for me, and RAW "when" should be prior to "immediately after". -The following is not really a raw argument but a funny observation. *If* the effects were truly simultaneous and the swarm gets applied first, then swarm push could create a paradox. The creature may be moved beyond the range of the weapon, which would cause the creature to have never been hit with it in the first place and *subsequently* not get pushed. A bludgeoning reach weapon [aside from the whole dao warlock thing] is the butt attack from polearm master. Personally, I appreciate the mechanics of being able to move them in any direction even with a sling. The 5' movement could represent a fast reflexive dodge to avoid getting ribs caved in by a baseball sized rock or the brute strike of a bludgeon. 5' closer could come from a dizzying strike to the head or a blow to the back of knees that causes them to stagger forwards.
Red flags started going off for me immediately once Treantmonk showed how the build is intended to work. Crusher: Once per turn, *WHEN* you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you. Gathered Swarm: Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, *immediately AFTER* you hit a creature with an attack... It seems to me a plain RAW reading makes it clear Crusher's movement happens first, followed by Gathered Swarm's movement. You can't make Gathered Swarm happen first and I think it'd be a hard sell for any DM to let you do so. I know I'd say no, I know my friend that's DM'd for me a few times would say no. So I don't think that gimmicky movement with Spirit Guardians will work at most tables.
Alternate version (not as optimized but cool) would be 6 levels of Order Cleric to use Dissonant Whispers as a bonus action potentially getting an opportunity attack with Booming Blade if you take Warcaster. Then you could use the same method on another enemy. But your version is more clean and takes less Cleric levels
I made a straight Ranger build for a 5th Level One Shot. I used Crusher, a quarterstaff, and the swarm push ability, after casting Spike Growth. My wife played as a Druid, and transformed into a giant goat. She would knock the target prone, and then it would basically play shuffleboard with their bodies. We were unstoppable.
1 nature cleric level away from an at will absorb elements reaction* which you could alternatively grant to others. Also you wouldn't have to worry about having no free hand for the somatic component of Absorb Elements without warcaster. [* yes it's only for that instance of damage, but that's when absorb elements is generally deployed]
I don’t know if I’d really call this a swarmkeeper build if you don’t even start getting ranger levels until 7th level. Love the flavor though! Reminds me of the Sandshaper prestige class in 3.5.
Thank you for the warning at the start of this video regarding yogurt. I had just bought some, so I double checked and was glad to see I was subscribed. So far none of my yogurts have torn open in unexpected ways, so there's some anecdotal evidence for you. ^_^
Swarmkeeper ranger is favorite subclass. Just fun for theme and flavorful. I used a deep gnome with lightning bugs as my swarm. He guided folks out of the Underdark using the bugs like rope lights found in movie theaters.
This is such a great build, especially in conjunction with the companion video with the 'behind the scenes' on how you came up with it! Could you please add a link to the character sheet in the video description? Doesn't seem to be there right now. Many thanks for the build! Edit: Thanks for adding the character sheet link!
Fun build not how I would do it though. I would go either human v, custom Lineage, high elf, half high elf, or kobold for BB. I would take 4 levels of hunter ranger with druidic focus for shilelah and crusher at 4. Then tempest cleric x picking up resil con, warcaster, and then maxing out wisdom. Less classes to multiclass into, and more single target damage.
Yes, that Sorcerer 1lvl dip feels bad. I'd rather sometimes fail concetration save than be behind in progression for such litttle reason. Tho I would take Arcana domain Cleric, to have access to Booming Blade.
getting con saving throw proficiency is the most important part, and the level 1 DSS feature is very good. you also get access to shield, which is incredible, and booming blade for free on top of all of that
gathered swarm hits "immediately after" you hit meaning that it wouldnt care if you crit or not so crusher would happen first and then gathered swarm would push the enemy
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
YESSSSSSSS I've been hoping for a Swarmkeeper build. I'm loving the newer(ish) Rangers: Drakewarden, Fey Wanderer, and Swarmkeeper. Seeing a build from you for the one I think is most underrated has got me so giddy.
15:44 I once randomly rolled a class, subclass, and race for a campaign and got tiefling nature domain cleric. We went up against an air elemental underground at some point. I always asked about the height of every arena we fought in because I had a ring of jumping and generally try to abuse verticality as much as possible, so I knew the roof was 10ft. I had just gotten this feature and what was supposed to be a tough fight against an air elemental became wind wall + eldritch blast from the warlock. The DM felt embarrassed that the final encounter of the dungeon was a non-issue, but I felt like the luckiest tiefling nature cleric ever. Awesome moment.
The link to the build is located where? I know it was said in the description, but I see a links to patreon, baseline damage, timestamps, discord and twitter. I must be missing something. I like looking at the character sheet, this is not a dig in anyway.
I was going to argue that your interpretation of Crusher and Gathered Swarm occuring at the same time is wrong, but after writing out my argument I think you're actually right. I was going to say that Crusher occurs during the hit, and a hit, while brief, is in fact not instantaneous. Because of this, I would then argue that "immediately after" can not refer to the same instant. However, as far as the rules are concerned, a hit is instantaneous. At least as far as I can tell, there is no text that implies there are multiple steps or phases of a hit. It just happens. With this interpretation, the instant of the hit and "immediately after" (meaning 0 seconds later) do in fact occur at the exact same time. It's an interesting case of the rules implying something that makes no sense when you think of the action taking place as if it was real, and in my opinion an excellent argument for why D&D should have standardized language for its more common triggers and effects.
The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin. I believe they are meant to be the same.
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
Gathered Swarm movement v Crusher feat movement 4:20 The gathered swarm says "...immediately after you hit a creature with an attack", and crusher says "...when you hit a creature". To me, this means Crusher must come first. Crusher movement is part of the attack, Gathered Swarm is a triggered effect after the hit.
I don't think this works. "when X happens" and "after X happens" sound like different timing, and that the Gathered Swarm would happen second. You can use Telekinetic, but then you're requiring that they fail two saving throws.
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
There is also Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar. If 1DD brings WIS casting to the warlock and these invocations stay the same, then this will probably be a better way to do it as there will be no saving throw. Repel twice 20ft, pull once 10ft. For now, you can do this with Paladin Oath of the Crown, which gets Spirit Guardians and some great bonus action CDs.
My yogurt containers were faulty as well until I subscribed! I never put 2 and 2 together but my subscribing MUST be why I can now enjoy one of my favorite snacks.😁
I haven't thought this through, but what happens if we just go 5 levels in Sorcerer and take Spirit Guardians there? The swarmkeeper ranger ability says "When you hit with an attack", so I'm assuming spell attacks work, so shocking grasp/chill touch? One obvious disadvantage I can see is the reduced number of spells, but I'm not sure if the saved level investment is worth it. Also, definitely WIS saves are more valuable than CHA saves. Just curious if you've done the math, what your opinion is, and if I'm missing something critical. EDIT: I assume we swap WIS and CHA scores during the initial level for this case.
I looked at that, a big problem is that the gathered swarm required a save using your wisdom, and if you take spirit guardians with sorcerer then those saves are using charisma, you either need high wisdom and charisma which is basically impossible if you still want good con and dex without rolling really well if you roll for stats, or you have to accept that spirit guardians does a lot less damage as enemies always succeed their save. It could be interesting if you ever play a build that rolls well for stats, but I don't think it would be feasible with normal ability scores.
@@luka2784 Yeah. I was imagining the case where you take 18 CHA and 13 WIS. Swap the initial ability scores. I guess it makes ranger spells less effective, but do we need the high wisdom at any point?
I think a high wisdom and low cha for this character could work. The damage for spirit guardians is not very much affected by the ability score. Treantmonk even talks about that in his spirit guardians video. It is going to be a pain to start a sorcerer to lvl 5 with only 13 cha
As a DM I would rule Crusher forced movement first as that happens on impact of the weapon, then the Swarm movement after representing the Swarm coming off you after to throw them. Regardless of the rules saying you get to choose which happens first, it just doesn't make sense for the Swarm push to happen before the Crusher push. As I said, the Crusher push is on the impact of the weapon, the Swarm push happens after the impact. What you could do however is run x-bow expert, run a bludgeon one handed melee weapon main hand, hand xbow offhand. Crusher push melee attack move them 5', you move so they're out of guardians aura, bonus action hand xbow shot, activate swarm forced movement to move them back in.
I would argue that Crusher's forced movement happens as part of the attack, but Gathered Swarm happens immediately after your attack, so from my understanding Crusher always applies before Gathered Swarm.
It's a cool build, and brilliant theme, but for me this comes online a bit late. I realise the build is viable at all levels, but to me this is a nature cleric build with a desert focus rather than a swarmkeeper build. It's definitely optimised well, but if I was aiming for a swarmkeeper build I think you have to get to swamkeeper by level 5 at worst. (I know it would be less powerful to do this, so it's a hard call for the channel)
had an idea for a sand/rock bending theme using beast barbarian and reflavoring the transformations into things like, claws becoming stone fists, tail being a stone you manipulate around you
If your GM allows for lorehold student background, maybe on the condition of missing the feat, you could get spirit guardians without the cleric dip. Tho since the spirit guardians is the main dmg source, cleric levels bring you some bigger spell slots.
I don't like this build simply because the entire theme of the build doesn't come online to mid-tier 2. If "Sandman" is your flavor you're almost guarenteed to have to wait for that flavor to kick in at a later time. I don't really like builds where the primary flavor of the build doesn't start until after level 5.
Agree, but there’s only so many combinations of 5-level builds and we are many years into the game. I don’t blame Chris for building at higher levels considering how much time he has spent presenting optimized builds.
Fun build! I could see the play getting repetitive though. Luckily clerics get to prepare their spells for any day. My favorite build by far though is the God Wizard. I played that one and my DM couldnt believe how much he could do
Also having plant growth and the ability to not be affected by nonmagical plants can lock someone down entirely path movement speed plus plant growth equals 5 ft of movement at turn
I just played a 1shot using a reskinned Leonin as a bear person. 3 levels of swarmkeeper 7 levels circle of spores and themed all the spells as a swarm of bees. Then used guardian of nature as my primary concentration spell. I had so much fun, maybe not quite optimized but I'd recommend to anyone
Wis-focused swarmkeeper is kinda optimised on it's own. The saving throw for the forced movement is based on spell save which means they''d play like a druid that can get in a bit of a scrap. The best use of the base class, without any weird interactions the dm might shoot down is hands down to use web(the spell they get at level five) and use the throw to keep enemies in the web. If they get out, a few magic stones and a bad roll could get them tossed right back into the web. In this case the build wouldn't be optimised for damage but for battlefield control, which is harder to represent in numbers. A weird but less relevant interaction I noticed: Magic stone can proc sneak attack but only if you launch the stones from a sling. It's not rally useful except as a bridge in certain builds though- infiltrator armorer for instance, they might want to start as rogue for skills and pick up armorer for int-based attacks, which might mean they spend level 3 as a rogue1/artificer 2, which would be rather helpless if they're int focused with just 13 dex.
Cool video, I like how you put interesting concepts in a lot of builds. Also, unrelated but if you do another weird rules type video. Eldritch Adept lets you take any invocation without a prerequisite, which includes Thief of Five Fates, with which you can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. Without being a warlock, this is entirely useless, but you can still have it!
The math does not work, unfortunately (for the swarmkeeper part). You calculated a total of 32.5 damage for the 3 attacks with an equal 60% chance to hit for each AND you also used a 84% (or 94%) chance that at least one attack will trigger the forced movement tech. Unfortunately, if you use the 84% figure (or 94%) this means that you will push the creature as soon as a single attack hits, and if it does, you won't be able to do any subsequent attacks. In other words, if you want to use the movement tech as soon as one attack hits, then you will only deal one instance of damage (with 60% chance), not 3. If your attack 1 hits (11.5 damage), you push the creature, then you don't do attack 2 and 3. If your attack 2 hits (11.5 damage), it means your attack 1 didn't hit and you won't do attack 3. If your attack 3 hits (9.5 damage) it means attack 1 and 2 both didn't hit. So in the calculation for the 3 hits, the math should be : 60% x 11.5 (atk 1) + 40% x 60% x 11.5 (atk 2) + 40% x 40% x 60% x 9.5 (atk 3). The 40%'s are the chances that the previous attack(s) didn't hit. To have 60% chances to hit on all 3 attacks, you would have to move to the pushed creature and then try to do the subsequent attacks. EDIT : After 3 levels of ranger, the initial damage (for the 3 attacks) should be ~10.57 instead of 19.5, so about 8.9 damage under your calculation, furthermore the movement tech only adds 5.67 damage to cover for it. This means it's more optimal to do 3 attacks and try the movement tech only if the 3rd attack hits. Sorry =(
@@keeganmbg6999 My second-to-last paragraph says exactly that. If it can be done, then it would work as intended. But, as you know (and just as TM rightfully pointed out), movement is not always possible, safe or preferable in many combat situations. Maybe the player movement would trigger one or more attacks of opportunity, maybe the player is restrained, grappled or in difficult terrain, maybe the player already used most of their movement to be next to the creature, maybe the player movement would remove other creatures from the Spirit Guardian.
@@keeganmbg6999 I just did, in my original post. If the player can't move, then take my calculation (or the one hinted in the edit to improve the damage), if the player can move, then use TM's calculation. One doesn't have to estimate the probability of both situations to happen, it's simply a matter of saying "if free movement : this damage, if not : that damage". All I'm saying is that when in combat, hindered movement situations happen often. Even in the video, in the example shown (around 22:49), I think it's more likely that the smaller monsters would be 5 ft from the player instead of 10 ft (the player has Spirit Guardians up, after all).
I think that defense could be better because more AC = less Concentration saves and another way I see is after 3rd level ranger to first go to 8th level in cleric because of divine strike (stacks with booming blade), the feat that could be lucky to hit more often and 4th lvl spells Guardian of faith (works well with forced movement lasts 8 hours) and banishment which is always a good situational spell
I've got a fun ranger build concept you might like to explore that ISN'T a gloom stalker lol. A beast master ranger using the players handbook ranger but making thier beast companion into a sidekick. I did some napkin math based on a giant poisonous snake as a sidekick and it's wild, the snake alone was over baseline
Neat! For flavor Plasmoid as species would rock too, if you reskin it from goo into sand of course. Sand pseudopods here we go.😁 One thing I don't understand is, why not stick with Divine Soul sorcerer, who will eventually have access to Spirit Guardians and other cleric spells (even a level earlier)? In my experience it's not a terribly hard sell, to ask your DM to let you use WIS instead of CHA as a spellcasting ability (especially with Divine Soul).
It's a cool idea, but he can't present a build where he assumes your DM will just allow a different spellcasting stat. He has to stick at least close to RAW, and that change impacts multiclassing too much to assume.
@@garion046 I‘m aware of the RAW aspect. My point stands nevertheless. Despite the MADness, one could reach the spirit guardian goal a level earlier by sticking to Divine Soul, … or skipping sorcerer altogether.
I wouldn't think crusher would cause the creature to move back into the area. Just from a physics standpoint. Pushing them out of Spirit Guardians, and then moving so they are in the area again though should do the same thing though.
The Crusher feat says, "When you hit a creature with an attack, you can move it ...". "When you hit" means the movement is simultaneous with the blow. Ergo, it precedes any movement from the gathered swarm, which occurs "... immediately after you hit a creature with an attack". Further, the obvious idea of the crusher feat is that the impact of the weapon moves your opponent. For that to occur after the gathered swarm moves your opponent, the momentum of the blow needs to disappear for a half second while the swarm moves the opponent - only to reappear again after the swarm has deposited the victim in place. That is to say, having the swarm movement occur first is logically absurd (and would absolutely break my immersion as a player).
Even though the Crusher feat could technically pull a creature towards you, I wouldn't use it like this. IMO, this feat works by pushing a creature with your heavy attack. Having the impact of your attack pull a creature after it has been pushed by the swarm makes no sense regardless of the rules.
I really like this build, its interesting, different, and fun. On a different note, Treantmonk, have you considered a collaboration with CMCC Builds? Currently, he's putting different builds up against a gauntlet/challenge showcasing his builds, and seeing how things progress, its been awesome. I think putting your builds into the grinder, if you will, would be interesting, entertaining and fun. Thanks for the build, and take care.
It might be RAW, but the Crusher happening after everything, dragging the enemy back into the spirit guardians feels like a stretch, and if I were the DM I don't think I would allow it. Otherwise, nice effort!
Might be dumb, but it seems like you could skip cleric levels and just take divine soul to 5 for spirit guardians, and then go straight to ranger. That would mean you’d need cha and wis though, but you might be able to make it work.
I’m having a session zero tonight and a player wants to make a swarm keeper that uses web/spike growth and Thorn Whip to keep pulling monsters into the area of effect. Could she also stack Telekinetic on top? I don’t see anything taking her bonus action up. I mean, I can just rule that it does, but what about per the rules? Also, is it bad to encourage her to triple down on this? I’m happy to make it work, but I don’t want her to be stuck with just one tactic that only works sometimes.
She won't be stuck with just that one tactic. The player at my table doing this has a multitude of other options as well. Moving enemies away from squishy allies and into the tank's area, enabling attack of opportunity. AoE's and environmental hazards also work so much in his favor I'm always preparing for my monsters when, not if, they will fall in. And let the effects stack, it feels great for the player.
"I hate this build. It’s coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere" - Anakin Skywalker, probably.
Good comment
Leia off Anakin, it's a Luke-warm insult to Solo him out like that.
Abrahamlincolnduh
My man.
The warning about the curse of not subscribing. 😂
“If you are not subscribed I will cast a Glyph of Warding in your house”
- Treantmonk in the near future, probably.
This son of a beach build has helped me sea the ocean of possibilities of using sand in subclasses.
Right? The only Sand named spell is Wall of Sand, and a couple of the earth themed ones work with sand, bit I would have expected a BUNCH more.
This is the most liberty with the rules that I have ever seen Treantmonk take to make a build viable. The crusher / gathered swarm interaction is super fun, but tenuous. Shrugging off the need for Warcaster because most tables don't play somatic components without material components RAW is not typical on this channel. I guess what I'm saying is, thank you Treantmonk for optimizing a Nature Cleric and Swarmkeeper build, through any means necessary. :)
Indeed.
This makes me think of Sand Mastery from White Sands. Love it!
I also thought of that and that Chris would have no idea about it :)
I'm just happy to know someone here understood me lol
Love me some Sanderson, but I immediately thought of Gaara. 🙂
This build is super close to what Chris ran through the CMCC Builds Gauntlet recently! Chris changed it to be Charisma focused and changing Nature Cleric for Watchers Paladin and Swarmkeeper for Genie Warlock with Grasp of Hadar. It still uses the Spirit Guardians+Crusher+Telekinetic to get multiple instances of damage from Spirit Guardians.
Ok this build just sounds really fun to play . The creativity of how to maneuver and stuff is really cool
The Sandit?
Modify it so it is a ranger
ogue and then it truly would be!
Currently playing a variation of this build! I’m level 14 and it’s Fighter 2/Tempest Cleric 7(Thunderbolt Strike!)/Swarmkeeper 5. I use a Stirring Weapon Wrath Sling (lightning) and Magic Stone (for the amazing stacking of +x spell focus and +x weapon) to hit almost every time. LOVE IT.
I was really expecting the ranger’s optional class feature for druid cantrips to bring shillelagh; the nature domain really came out of left FIELD.
… yeah I know that was a beach.
Love the build, and the puns!
I posted this on the previous video, but my proposal for a Swarmkeeper: The Swarm of Scrolls! Swarmkeeper Ranger (3) / Arcana Cleric (17). Flavor everything as swarming books, papers, scrolls, quills, paper airplanes, library cards, etc.
Use Arcana Cleric to pick up Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade. Use Ranger's Druidic Warrior Fighting Style to pick up Shillelagh and Thorn Whip. Grab Warcaster early (level 1 or 4). If enemies are close, Booming Blade and use your swarm to move five feet away or knock them far away from your party. If enemies are far away, Thorn Whip to bring them into Spirit Guardians and then Gathering Swarm to push them out the other side. Telekinetic feat if you want extra tools to play with.
Character levels 1-5 are standard Cleric. 6-8 switch to Ranger (grab Absorb Elements, Goodberry, and 1 other spell). 9-20 back to Cleric. Build really comes online at character level 7 (Shillelagh + Booming Blade + Warcaster + Spirit Guardians). Power spikes at level 11 with Potent Spellcasting. And as a true capstone, you still get Arcana Cleric's bonkers Arcane Mastery at level 20.
For smoother progression, go Custom Lineage. If you want to be extra tanky, go Githzerai for the Shield spell.
I have a build request or challenge if you take them. But first, thank you so much for all the videos you make, I find them very valuable to watch. Okay, the challenge: how would you make an optimized character that doesn’t reply on sight - or who is effectively blind. Blind fighting style? Auras, spells that don’t require line of sight? What optimizations exist? If you get to it, many thanks.
Been waiting for this one
I had a similar concept with spore Druid where my swarm and spores where the one in the same
I've been going back and forth on swarmkeeper builds as well. I'm not a huge fan of how late this actually becomes a swarmkeeper build though
Great to see this build come together. Beyond the sand theme, I like that Divine Soul + Nature Cleric + Ranger has a logical thematic progression. Also, the spell list appears strong and versatile.
I've always liked the idea of using Shillelagh with a staff/quarterstaff particularly on the Swarmkeeper for the usual Spike Growth+Crusher+Swarm interactions, and maintaining a high save DC for spells which a ranger won't normally have.
The madman actually did it, he took the weird example he made on his "how to optimance" video and made it real
Yeah... this seems like it shouldn't work. It's weird in the first place that _Crusher_ can move a creature in any direction, not just away from you, but at least you could justify it by saying you hit it in the head or something and make it stumble in that direction and you being in the way made sure you didn't pull it towards you using melee attacks from 5 feet away. (Ranged attacks and weapons with reach work strangely in conjunction with _Crusher,_ though at least the base game has no reach weapons that do bludgeoning damage. _Crusher_ it should really state "Once per turn, when you hit a creature with a *melee* attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space *that is no closer to you than where they started,* provided the target is no more than one size larger than you." and also "Once per turn, when you hit a creature with a *ranged* attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet *away* from you to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.")
But having the _Crusher_ movement proc _after_ the _Gathered Swarm_ movement seems gimmicky as all hell, and I think RAW is on my side in this one: _Crusher_ specifies "(...) *when* you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it (...)", while _Gathered Swarm_ states " (...) you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, *immediately after* you hit a creature with an attack (...)". _Crusher_ is during, _Gathered Swarm_ is after.
Still a cool build, though.
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
I agree with you on how it should work, but hey this is dnd! Tons of wonky stuff going around, as written i think it should work.
@MalloonTarka ya I agree, delaying crusher until after the swarm is pretty gimmicky and immersion breaking for me, and RAW "when" should be prior to "immediately after". -The following is not really a raw argument but a funny observation. *If* the effects were truly simultaneous and the swarm gets applied first, then swarm push could create a paradox. The creature may be moved beyond the range of the weapon, which would cause the creature to have never been hit with it in the first place and *subsequently* not get pushed.
A bludgeoning reach weapon [aside from the whole dao warlock thing] is the butt attack from polearm master. Personally, I appreciate the mechanics of being able to move them in any direction even with a sling. The 5' movement could represent a fast reflexive dodge to avoid getting ribs caved in by a baseball sized rock or the brute strike of a bludgeon. 5' closer could come from a dizzying strike to the head or a blow to the back of knees that causes them to stagger forwards.
Red flags started going off for me immediately once Treantmonk showed how the build is intended to work.
Crusher: Once per turn, *WHEN* you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
Gathered Swarm: Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, *immediately AFTER* you hit a creature with an attack...
It seems to me a plain RAW reading makes it clear Crusher's movement happens first, followed by Gathered Swarm's movement. You can't make Gathered Swarm happen first and I think it'd be a hard sell for any DM to let you do so. I know I'd say no, I know my friend that's DM'd for me a few times would say no.
So I don't think that gimmicky movement with Spirit Guardians will work at most tables.
I agree this takes a lot of suspension of disbelief. Even for a fantasy game lol.
@@jcdenton2187 ah damn, thought I was the first to notice the when/after distinction. Good job.
Alternate version (not as optimized but cool) would be 6 levels of Order Cleric to use Dissonant Whispers as a bonus action potentially getting an opportunity attack with Booming Blade if you take Warcaster. Then you could use the same method on another enemy.
But your version is more clean and takes less Cleric levels
I made a straight Ranger build for a 5th Level One Shot. I used Crusher, a quarterstaff, and the swarm push ability, after casting Spike Growth. My wife played as a Druid, and transformed into a giant goat. She would knock the target prone, and then it would basically play shuffleboard with their bodies. We were unstoppable.
OK, "Son of a Beach" is a pretty good term...
Gara from Naruto
ow thats likely the best reflavour of the shield spell I have seen to date :D
100%
Thought of that faster than Sandmam.
Add one level of genie warlock and have your bottle be a giant gourd just a complete the look
1 nature cleric level away from an at will absorb elements reaction* which you could alternatively grant to others. Also you wouldn't have to worry about having no free hand for the somatic component of Absorb Elements without warcaster. [* yes it's only for that instance of damage, but that's when absorb elements is generally deployed]
I don’t know if I’d really call this a swarmkeeper build if you don’t even start getting ranger levels until 7th level. Love the flavor though! Reminds me of the Sandshaper prestige class in 3.5.
So many cool ideas from 3.5e that we've never seen in 5e.
Yeah, it's a really cool build, but hard to really call it a swarmkeeper when it you aren't one until lvl 9.
That channel plug at 1:40 was elite
I'm so glad Treantmonk has been guarding my yoghurt. Lord knows it needs it.
Great concept and build, would love to see a Drakewarden build!
Thank you for the warning at the start of this video regarding yogurt. I had just bought some, so I double checked and was glad to see I was subscribed. So far none of my yogurts have torn open in unexpected ways, so there's some anecdotal evidence for you. ^_^
Swarmkeeper ranger is favorite subclass. Just fun for theme and flavorful. I used a deep gnome with lightning bugs as my swarm. He guided folks out of the Underdark using the bugs like rope lights found in movie theaters.
This is such a great build, especially in conjunction with the companion video with the 'behind the scenes' on how you came up with it!
Could you please add a link to the character sheet in the video description? Doesn't seem to be there right now. Many thanks for the build!
Edit: Thanks for adding the character sheet link!
Fun build not how I would do it though.
I would go either human v, custom Lineage, high elf, half high elf, or kobold for BB.
I would take 4 levels of hunter ranger with druidic focus for shilelah and crusher at 4. Then tempest cleric x picking up resil con, warcaster, and then maxing out wisdom.
Less classes to multiclass into, and more single target damage.
Yes, that Sorcerer 1lvl dip feels bad. I'd rather sometimes fail concetration save than be behind in progression for such litttle reason. Tho I would take Arcana domain Cleric, to have access to Booming Blade.
getting con saving throw proficiency is the most important part, and the level 1 DSS feature is very good. you also get access to shield, which is incredible, and booming blade for free on top of all of that
gathered swarm hits "immediately after" you hit meaning that it wouldnt care if you crit or not so crusher would happen first and then gathered swarm would push the enemy
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
Keyword is after, crusher goes first
YESSSSSSSS I've been hoping for a Swarmkeeper build. I'm loving the newer(ish) Rangers: Drakewarden, Fey Wanderer, and Swarmkeeper. Seeing a build from you for the one I think is most underrated has got me so giddy.
15:44 I once randomly rolled a class, subclass, and race for a campaign and got tiefling nature domain cleric. We went up against an air elemental underground at some point.
I always asked about the height of every arena we fought in because I had a ring of jumping and generally try to abuse verticality as much as possible, so I knew the roof was 10ft.
I had just gotten this feature and what was supposed to be a tough fight against an air elemental became wind wall + eldritch blast from the warlock. The DM felt embarrassed that the final encounter of the dungeon was a non-issue, but I felt like the luckiest tiefling nature cleric ever. Awesome moment.
The link to the build is located where? I know it was said in the description, but I see a links to patreon, baseline damage, timestamps, discord and twitter. I must be missing something. I like looking at the character sheet, this is not a dig in anyway.
Sorry Dana, I had forgot to put it in the description. It's there now.
@@TreantmonksTemple Thank You very much.
I was going to argue that your interpretation of Crusher and Gathered Swarm occuring at the same time is wrong, but after writing out my argument I think you're actually right. I was going to say that Crusher occurs during the hit, and a hit, while brief, is in fact not instantaneous. Because of this, I would then argue that "immediately after" can not refer to the same instant. However, as far as the rules are concerned, a hit is instantaneous. At least as far as I can tell, there is no text that implies there are multiple steps or phases of a hit. It just happens. With this interpretation, the instant of the hit and "immediately after" (meaning 0 seconds later) do in fact occur at the exact same time. It's an interesting case of the rules implying something that makes no sense when you think of the action taking place as if it was real, and in my opinion an excellent argument for why D&D should have standardized language for its more common triggers and effects.
The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
I believe they are meant to be the same.
If I wasn't subscribed, I'd be after that joghurt intro. 10/10
When you hit is not after you hit. Usually I can go with it. But I think the language makes it hard.
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
Insanely good Intro. I really love your sense of humour pls keep it up!
Gathered Swarm movement v Crusher feat movement 4:20
The gathered swarm says "...immediately after you hit a creature with an attack", and crusher says "...when you hit a creature". To me, this means Crusher must come first. Crusher movement is part of the attack, Gathered Swarm is a triggered effect after the hit.
That’s Great!
I loved my Lizardman Swarm Master who was surrounded by a cloud a flies, he even had low charisma and nobody liked his smell.
This guy is gonna cause a lot of trouble at the Chunin Exams
I literally started this build with my son last night. Perfect timing.
I don't think this works. "when X happens" and "after X happens" sound like different timing, and that the Gathered Swarm would happen second. You can use Telekinetic, but then you're requiring that they fail two saving throws.
Same. Plus I can rationalize range pulling with gathered swarm, but not range pulling with melee crusher attack.
I believe there's no mechanical distinction, no rules that stablish a clear diference between the two, when in practice they work the same way. The different wording is probably an artifact of older dnd design, as we can see in the 1dnd playtest, all instances of optional effects when you hit a creature are being swapped with immediately after, like with the paladin.
There is also Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar. If 1DD brings WIS casting to the warlock and these invocations stay the same, then this will probably be a better way to do it as there will be no saving throw. Repel twice 20ft, pull once 10ft.
For now, you can do this with Paladin Oath of the Crown, which gets Spirit Guardians and some great bonus action CDs.
My yogurt containers were faulty as well until I subscribed! I never put 2 and 2 together but my subscribing MUST be why I can now enjoy one of my favorite snacks.😁
I've actually built this already. It's almost an identical build.
I haven't thought this through, but what happens if we just go 5 levels in Sorcerer and take Spirit Guardians there? The swarmkeeper ranger ability says "When you hit with an attack", so I'm assuming spell attacks work, so shocking grasp/chill touch?
One obvious disadvantage I can see is the reduced number of spells, but I'm not sure if the saved level investment is worth it. Also, definitely WIS saves are more valuable than CHA saves.
Just curious if you've done the math, what your opinion is, and if I'm missing something critical.
EDIT: I assume we swap WIS and CHA scores during the initial level for this case.
I looked at that, a big problem is that the gathered swarm required a save using your wisdom, and if you take spirit guardians with sorcerer then those saves are using charisma, you either need high wisdom and charisma which is basically impossible if you still want good con and dex without rolling really well if you roll for stats, or you have to accept that spirit guardians does a lot less damage as enemies always succeed their save. It could be interesting if you ever play a build that rolls well for stats, but I don't think it would be feasible with normal ability scores.
@@luka2784 Yeah. I was imagining the case where you take 18 CHA and 13 WIS. Swap the initial ability scores. I guess it makes ranger spells less effective, but do we need the high wisdom at any point?
@@venkatasaisreyasadury9473 the swarm's push dc is based off of wisdom, if they make the save then ranger multiclass has contributed nothing.
@@venkatasaisreyasadury9473 You need it for Gathered Swarm
I think a high wisdom and low cha for this character could work. The damage for spirit guardians is not very much affected by the ability score. Treantmonk even talks about that in his spirit guardians video.
It is going to be a pain to start a sorcerer to lvl 5 with only 13 cha
34:47 this is a very “ nice” increase 😂
As a DM I would rule Crusher forced movement first as that happens on impact of the weapon, then the Swarm movement after representing the Swarm coming off you after to throw them.
Regardless of the rules saying you get to choose which happens first, it just doesn't make sense for the Swarm push to happen before the Crusher push.
As I said, the Crusher push is on the impact of the weapon, the Swarm push happens after the impact.
What you could do however is run x-bow expert, run a bludgeon one handed melee weapon main hand, hand xbow offhand.
Crusher push melee attack move them 5', you move so they're out of guardians aura, bonus action hand xbow shot, activate swarm forced movement to move them back in.
I would argue that Crusher's forced movement happens as part of the attack, but Gathered Swarm happens immediately after your attack, so from my understanding Crusher always applies before Gathered Swarm.
The jokes are absolutely killer today - you’ve earned a subscriber!
A nice build, in which the son always shines.
One of my favorite subclasses!!!!!
It's a cool build, and brilliant theme, but for me this comes online a bit late. I realise the build is viable at all levels, but to me this is a nature cleric build with a desert focus rather than a swarmkeeper build.
It's definitely optimised well, but if I was aiming for a swarmkeeper build I think you have to get to swamkeeper by level 5 at worst. (I know it would be less powerful to do this, so it's a hard call for the channel)
had an idea for a sand/rock bending theme using beast barbarian and reflavoring the transformations into things like, claws becoming stone fists, tail being a stone you manipulate around you
I'm using this for my next villain, immediately.
If your GM allows for lorehold student background, maybe on the condition of missing the feat, you could get spirit guardians without the cleric dip. Tho since the spirit guardians is the main dmg source, cleric levels bring you some bigger spell slots.
I don't like this build simply because the entire theme of the build doesn't come online to mid-tier 2. If "Sandman" is your flavor you're almost guarenteed to have to wait for that flavor to kick in at a later time. I don't really like builds where the primary flavor of the build doesn't start until after level 5.
Agree, but there’s only so many combinations of 5-level builds and we are many years into the game. I don’t blame Chris for building at higher levels considering how much time he has spent presenting optimized builds.
Fun build! I could see the play getting repetitive though. Luckily clerics get to prepare their spells for any day. My favorite build by far though is the God Wizard. I played that one and my DM couldnt believe how much he could do
Subscribed to protect the sanctity of my yoghurt.
Love to see the M Hilker art!!
add in a cloak of the manta ray...underwater in dense seaweed
1:32 you really are the funniest man alive. I love these bits xD
Also having plant growth and the ability to not be affected by nonmagical plants can lock someone down entirely path movement speed plus plant growth equals 5 ft of movement at turn
I just played a 1shot using a reskinned Leonin as a bear person. 3 levels of swarmkeeper 7 levels circle of spores and themed all the spells as a swarm of bees. Then used guardian of nature as my primary concentration spell. I had so much fun, maybe not quite optimized but I'd recommend to anyone
Anakin is SHAKING at this build
I would think that the effect of the Crucher feat is part of the attack, so it happens simultaneously with the taget taking damage.
Wis-focused swarmkeeper is kinda optimised on it's own. The saving throw for the forced movement is based on spell save which means they''d play like a druid that can get in a bit of a scrap. The best use of the base class, without any weird interactions the dm might shoot down is hands down to use web(the spell they get at level five) and use the throw to keep enemies in the web. If they get out, a few magic stones and a bad roll could get them tossed right back into the web. In this case the build wouldn't be optimised for damage but for battlefield control, which is harder to represent in numbers.
A weird but less relevant interaction I noticed: Magic stone can proc sneak attack but only if you launch the stones from a sling. It's not rally useful except as a bridge in certain builds though- infiltrator armorer for instance, they might want to start as rogue for skills and pick up armorer for int-based attacks, which might mean they spend level 3 as a rogue1/artificer 2, which would be rather helpless if they're int focused with just 13 dex.
Cool video, I like how you put interesting concepts in a lot of builds. Also, unrelated but if you do another weird rules type video. Eldritch Adept lets you take any invocation without a prerequisite, which includes Thief of Five Fates, with which you can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. Without being a warlock, this is entirely useless, but you can still have it!
This both optimized and a fun, flavorful build!
Blindness/deafness added in at the end there jusy to throw sand in their eyes
Super cool and interesting build, but my DM would never allow Gathering Swarm and Crusher to both push and pull at the same time.
I think I under-sand what you did here.
This is a very.... granular build.
The math does not work, unfortunately (for the swarmkeeper part).
You calculated a total of 32.5 damage for the 3 attacks with an equal 60% chance to hit for each AND you also used a 84% (or 94%) chance that at least one attack will trigger the forced movement tech. Unfortunately, if you use the 84% figure (or 94%) this means that you will push the creature as soon as a single attack hits, and if it does, you won't be able to do any subsequent attacks.
In other words, if you want to use the movement tech as soon as one attack hits, then you will only deal one instance of damage (with 60% chance), not 3. If your attack 1 hits (11.5 damage), you push the creature, then you don't do attack 2 and 3. If your attack 2 hits (11.5 damage), it means your attack 1 didn't hit and you won't do attack 3. If your attack 3 hits (9.5 damage) it means attack 1 and 2 both didn't hit.
So in the calculation for the 3 hits, the math should be : 60% x 11.5 (atk 1) + 40% x 60% x 11.5 (atk 2) + 40% x 40% x 60% x 9.5 (atk 3). The 40%'s are the chances that the previous attack(s) didn't hit.
To have 60% chances to hit on all 3 attacks, you would have to move to the pushed creature and then try to do the subsequent attacks.
EDIT : After 3 levels of ranger, the initial damage (for the 3 attacks) should be ~10.57 instead of 19.5, so about 8.9 damage under your calculation, furthermore the movement tech only adds 5.67 damage to cover for it. This means it's more optimal to do 3 attacks and try the movement tech only if the 3rd attack hits. Sorry =(
Why do you assume that his character can’t move between attack as is RAW?
@@keeganmbg6999 My second-to-last paragraph says exactly that. If it can be done, then it would work as intended.
But, as you know (and just as TM rightfully pointed out), movement is not always possible, safe or preferable in many combat situations. Maybe the player movement would trigger one or more attacks of opportunity, maybe the player is restrained, grappled or in difficult terrain, maybe the player already used most of their movement to be next to the creature, maybe the player movement would remove other creatures from the Spirit Guardian.
@@nburo But those are variables that he can’t account for in the numbers.
@@keeganmbg6999 I just did, in my original post. If the player can't move, then take my calculation (or the one hinted in the edit to improve the damage), if the player can move, then use TM's calculation.
One doesn't have to estimate the probability of both situations to happen, it's simply a matter of saying "if free movement : this damage, if not : that damage".
All I'm saying is that when in combat, hindered movement situations happen often. Even in the video, in the example shown (around 22:49), I think it's more likely that the smaller monsters would be 5 ft from the player instead of 10 ft (the player has Spirit Guardians up, after all).
Thanks for the video. I love it!
I think that defense could be better because more AC = less Concentration saves and another way I see is after 3rd level ranger to first go to 8th level in cleric because of divine strike (stacks with booming blade), the feat that could be lucky to hit more often and 4th lvl spells Guardian of faith (works well with forced movement lasts 8 hours) and banishment which is always a good situational spell
In the 80's you could conjure or summon an insect or swarm to stop spell casters. I bee sting to the nose stops most spell casters.
Life's changed a lot since then. Now a days, Spellcasters have 4 hour podcasts & take DMT. Concentration is on a whole new level.
I've got a fun ranger build concept you might like to explore that ISN'T a gloom stalker lol. A beast master ranger using the players handbook ranger but making thier beast companion into a sidekick. I did some napkin math based on a giant poisonous snake as a sidekick and it's wild, the snake alone was over baseline
Neat! For flavor Plasmoid as species would rock too, if you reskin it from goo into sand of course. Sand pseudopods here we go.😁 One thing I don't understand is, why not stick with Divine Soul sorcerer, who will eventually have access to Spirit Guardians and other cleric spells (even a level earlier)? In my experience it's not a terribly hard sell, to ask your DM to let you use WIS instead of CHA as a spellcasting ability (especially with Divine Soul).
It's a cool idea, but he can't present a build where he assumes your DM will just allow a different spellcasting stat. He has to stick at least close to RAW, and that change impacts multiclassing too much to assume.
@@garion046 I‘m aware of the RAW aspect. My point stands nevertheless. Despite the MADness, one could reach the spirit guardian goal a level earlier by sticking to Divine Soul, … or skipping sorcerer altogether.
14th level of the build looks nice.
Really fun and flavorful build!
Cool build I probably would pick Lunar Sorcery instead that would allow you to grab Shield Absorb Elements and Silvery Barbs with a one level dip
Definately a sand out build.
Damn, two minutes in and sand puns everywhere, going strong out the gate.
I wouldn't think crusher would cause the creature to move back into the area. Just from a physics standpoint. Pushing them out of Spirit Guardians, and then moving so they are in the area again though should do the same thing though.
I’m subscribed and never experienced yogurt failure. I think the conclusion is obvious.
The Crusher feat says, "When you hit a creature with an attack, you can move it ...". "When you hit" means the movement is simultaneous with the blow. Ergo, it precedes any movement from the gathered swarm, which occurs "... immediately after you hit a creature with an attack".
Further, the obvious idea of the crusher feat is that the impact of the weapon moves your opponent. For that to occur after the gathered swarm moves your opponent, the momentum of the blow needs to disappear for a half second while the swarm moves the opponent - only to reappear again after the swarm has deposited the victim in place. That is to say, having the swarm movement occur first is logically absurd (and would absolutely break my immersion as a player).
Yep. The when/after distinction kills it.
Thanks for the warning you got yourself a sub.
Even though the Crusher feat could technically pull a creature towards you, I wouldn't use it like this. IMO, this feat works by pushing a creature with your heavy attack. Having the impact of your attack pull a creature after it has been pushed by the swarm makes no sense regardless of the rules.
Funny meme. Cross class druid and describe the swarm as resembling a tiny wild shape option.
Mr. Sandman… Man me a sand…
I really like this build, its interesting, different, and fun. On a different note, Treantmonk, have you considered a collaboration with CMCC Builds? Currently, he's putting different builds up against a gauntlet/challenge showcasing his builds, and seeing how things progress, its been awesome. I think putting your builds into the grinder, if you will, would be interesting, entertaining and fun. Thanks for the build, and take care.
Pig pen with a swarm of flees.
Now add Sleep to this build and call it the Sandman
It might be RAW, but the Crusher happening after everything, dragging the enemy back into the spirit guardians feels like a stretch, and if I were the DM I don't think I would allow it. Otherwise, nice effort!
It's a shame that, due to spell list restrictions, Mr. Sandman will never be able to send me a Dream.
Might be dumb, but it seems like you could skip cleric levels and just take divine soul to 5 for spirit guardians, and then go straight to ranger. That would mean you’d need cha and wis though, but you might be able to make it work.
I’m having a session zero tonight and a player wants to make a swarm keeper that uses web/spike growth and Thorn Whip to keep pulling monsters into the area of effect. Could she also stack Telekinetic on top? I don’t see anything taking her bonus action up. I mean, I can just rule that it does, but what about per the rules? Also, is it bad to encourage her to triple down on this? I’m happy to make it work, but I don’t want her to be stuck with just one tactic that only works sometimes.
She won't be stuck with just that one tactic. The player at my table doing this has a multitude of other options as well. Moving enemies away from squishy allies and into the tank's area, enabling attack of opportunity. AoE's and environmental hazards also work so much in his favor I'm always preparing for my monsters when, not if, they will fall in.
And let the effects stack, it feels great for the player.