There's a lot of interesting alternatives that could be done with this build. One level of Hexblade could get you CHA attacks with a hand crossbow. Since the majority of the levels are in CHA casters and you have medium armour, being able to focus on CHA and CON seems relevant. I could see instead of going 4 levels of fighter going 1 level of fighter, and then taking the rest of the levels in Bard. This would (eventually) get you to Bard 14 (at character level 19 or so) but would also get you magical secrets at character level 15. I could see starting in a class with CON saving throws (Fighter or Sorcerer). Although I think the big way to improve on builds like this is just...teamwork and trust. Talk to one of your fellow players, have one of you grab greater invisibility while the other goes fighter 11 with Elven Accuracy.
I think Sleep is somewhat underrated at higher levels. Sure, it's not the encounter ender that it is at early game and does get outclasse by Hypnotic Pattern and other spells later on, but it has a niche as a reliable finisher. My Bard once used it on an Adult Dragon that still had Legendary Resistance uses left, to rob it of its last turn and grant my Barbarian a free follow-up crit, eventually felling it. I can't think of a better spell to use in that situation and it reignited my respect for the Sleep spell.
Honestly, one of my favorite things about this build is the versatility. As much as I enjoy being referred to by the name Max Damage during my gaming sessions, I have the most fun when I'm dancing across a battlefield with a cornucopia of potential actions at my disposal. It adds novelty to combat, and a certain strategic advantage; insofar as unpredictability factors in to the DM's encounter resolutions. I'd rather go to gymnastics class & suck at it, then just do bicep curls all day. This build is a fun one, I'm imagining it with a Middle Eastern vide, like the Hashashin from Assassin's Creed.
I could definitely see unleashing a reflavored/simplified version of this build on my players someday. Not sure if it's one I'd make as a player, but it's a great concept.
I’m playing a bladesinger wizard that is using this as well. My dm dropped a custom magic item that was a dagger that did 4d8 extra damage, but only when you were unseen by the person you attack with it. I’ve been using blindness to fulfill the condition up until now so I could attack a single target sometimes with it, but now that I’ve got greater invisibility I’m going to be using that for when there’s multiple enemies since it also gives higher chance for me to hit and, when combined with bladesong makes me nearly impossible to hit, and even when they do I can just sheild.
Another build idea could be Chronurgy Wizard / Battle Smith Artificer. You can have your Steel Defender / Homunculus Servant give you Greater Invisibility through Arcane Abeyance once per short rest. Of course it uses Chronurgy Wizard, which you might not want to use due to its power level.
Thanks for sharing! I have a fighter/bard archer build that I play in adventurers league games to great success. Luckily he has the cloak of invisibility waiting in the wings for play in T4 when I get there.
So glad to see Treantmonk vs Archery Bard! I actually just did a build similar to this for my channel, albeit I advocated for going bard the whole way, with an emphasis on Faerie Fire and spells that don't call for Charisma rolls, though Greater Invisibility is great of course! A sorcerer dip for more spells is such a cool idea - on my end I just emphasized that taking Bard 14 would let us grab Contingency so as to cast Greater Invisibility with a wink or a stamp of your foot. It's not Font of Magic, but it's something! And hey, you get simulacrum! 😀
I like the build a lot. I would swap one of the 2nd level spells for See Invisibility and two of the 1st level spells for Faerie Fire and Dissonant Whispers. You need to maintain advantage, and if a creature is invisible, your elven accuracy doesn't mean a thing. See Invisibility let's you see them, and then you can cast G. Invis next round to get your advantage attacks. Or, simply quicken Faerie Fire and that will be your way to get advantage on attacks and you'll be good to attack on round 1 albeit with less defensive capabilites. Dissonant Whispers potentially props AoO (JC has made tweets going both ways) which is more helpful than Tasha's (for you at least) because Tasha's drops them prone AND uses concentration. Prone negates your advantage with GI, and Tashas concentration means it doesn't stack with GI anyways. Dissonant is instantaneous and pushes people away. If your GM allows it to proc AoO, it's even better. Until GI, you want people as far away as possible because of your not great AC. I would also get Control Flames when you choose Sorc cantrips. If an NPC is hiding, you won't be able to see them. If you increase the light nearby, it COULD make it so they don't have an area to hide. Alternatively, if you're out of GI spells, Quicken Faerie Fire and then use Control Flames to take all the light from flames out of the space. The enemy will still be covered by the Faerie Fire, and you will be in darkness for heavy obscurement (disadvantage on attacks againt you) if they aren't able to see you. Control Flames, See Invisibility, and Faerie Fire are low level options to ensure you still keep your Advantage.
As he said in his previous video, by RAW see invisibility doesn't let you bypass the disadvantage to attack them clause. Fi your DM rules this differently, as I and others do, then there are going to be a lot of creatures with blindsight and truesight that are going to make this build a lot worse.
@@insertphrasehere15 Good point. See Invisibility would only help in targeting the creature which is good, but so will Faerie Fire. Though SI doesn't involve concentration so *maybe* it's still worthwhile if you need it for targeting spells? I guess if you don't take "target you can see" spells, you can skip it. Spells requiring sight that are on his list: Command and Tasha's Laughter (even more of a reason to do D. Whispers or Faerie Fire instead) Blindness/Deafness (I'd take SI instead, but if you take spells that aren't focused on sight, neither matter opening up an open spot). To be fair, Blindness/Deafness helps early game by giving most of the benefits of Invisibility (arv/disadv) so as long as you keep it for *not* invisible creatures than it still has a use. Polymorph - maybe take Dimension Door instead? You don't have great mobility options until Sorc 3 gives Misty Step. I would normally add Silvery Barbs somewhere, but with such a low AC, you're going to get hit a lot anyways. Your best defense is simply not being where the fight and/or staying invisible.
@@vinspad3 control flames only targets nonmagical flame, also faerie fire doesn't create fire. But you're right that faerie fire would be good here. Unlike See Invisibility, faerie fire specifies an affected creature can't benefit from being invisible -removing the condition for the duration, so the accompanying adv/disadv is suspended with the invisibility
@elliot bryant I think you misunderstand my reasoning for Faerie Fire and Control Flames. My thoughts are that creatures hiding (not invisible) in darkness or heavy obscurement would give disadvantage to your attacks negating your advantage. Control Flames could increase the size of the nonmagical flames which could put a creature from heavy obscurement into light. Taking away the reason for the creature hiding (being in darkness) would trigger 'You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly' and also 'so if you come out of Hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you' portions of the Hiding condition that makes you not hidden anymore. If you, the player, are Invisible, and the other creature is not hidden in any way, you'll continue to have advantage. Secondly, you can use Control Flames and Faerie Fire together in case you run out of G Invisibility spells to create a similar effect to GI. Step 1) Quicken Faerie Fire as a bonus action. All within the area that fail the save are attacked at advantage. Step 2) Cast Control Flames to extinguish the Flames around you. You are correct that Faerie Fire isn't affected. This means that you are in darkness (heavy obscurement) which means others attack you at disadvantage. However, Faerie Fire is still up so anyone who attacks the creatures in the Faerie Fire have advantage. You having advantage on attacks while they have disadvantage against you is a similar effect as G Invisibility - and you wouldn't come out of your 'heavy obscurement' state just because you attacked, making this combo potentially better than regular Invisibility. A DM might rule that someone in the darkness has disadvantage on their attack which would negate it. Heavy Obscurement states you can't see *within it* but nothing about seeing outside of it. So if you are in the darkness but the target isn't, and the target has Faerie Fire on it, you should have advantage.
good news! the caster's spells that are only targeting themselves can also benefit the steed from Find Steed/Greater steed while they're mounted! no metamagic required
@@blubblubwhat ? no metamagic is even required to do this, provided you are mounted on the griffin and cast the greater invisibility on yourself. It's part of Find Steed/Greater Steed's spell description
Taking fighter for your first level gives you, heavy Armour, martial wespon proficiency, +2 to hit archery and more hit pionts. In essence you get to be an archer from the get go. I would then combine this with centaur and mobility to be an incredible skirmisher
If you want to use that heavy armor you'd need 13-15 strength though, which would limit your DEX for bow usage, CHA for casting or CON for survivability, and you wouldn't be eligeble for taking Elven Accuracy anymore if you go Centaur, AND it would delay the bonus action Greater Invisibility cheese by another level. It's an alternative way to go, but it sounds like you're losing out on a lot.
@@Omni-kyun while being fast rarely makes it into biuld calculations on the actual battle field its effects are often HUGE especially for skirmishers like archers.
They seem really scared of giving sorcerer a subclass that gets extra attack at level 6 like bladesinger and swords/valor bard. I guess because of maybe quickened haste/greater invis or something similar at lower levels that they think would be too strong.
@@roronoa1243 I think it might be more of a class thematic limitation, all of the subclasses mechanics are reflections of some supernatural origin [which is a pretty limiting design space IMO]. So try reverse engineering it, what is an evocative supernatural origin that would really makes sense for a sorcerer to eventually become skilled at wielding weapons? A true-Polymorphed weapon: The Son of a Gun? 😁 seems pretty niche! Joking aside, the only one I've developed really is some manner of Reincarnated Hero origin -like with characters from the Wheel of Time series. I could see easy potential for a sorcerous origin that becomes adept at using specific natural weapons that it grows or something, but developing those skills seem different from becoming adept as a general weapon wielder. New sorcerous origin concept: a timeline channeller origin [better name pending] -basically the main character from "Everything Everywhere All at Once"
@@elliotbryant3459 I could definitely see a Sorcerer origin based on a supernatural entity connected to weapon use. The 2015 Favored Soul UA themed it around getting these proficiencies from a Divine source but I'd really love a Mechanus Sorcerer that derives its power from magically exacting the order of the universe. There could be ties to Marut and Iron Golems too.
ב"ה I think that at level 4 when you have elven accuracy (and probably earlier too) Faery Fire is a really good option for a 1st level concentration spell.
Interesting build but I think the mounted combatant approach to getting advantage is more reliable and much less resource hungry. I think arguably it can make better use of magic items as well. Importantly, if you are invisible you probably aren't tanking, and that's a partial role for swords bards pretty often
I like this build. I think at Divine Soul Sorcerer 3, I'd take Spiritual Weapon for some Bonus Action damage, but know that I'd only be keeping it until Sorcerer 4 when CBE kicks in at which point replace it with Blindness Deafness. I think early Bard, getting Faerie Fire in your arsenal isn't as good as Greater Invisibility - but it's a lot less expensive to pull off if you want to make that early access to Elven Accuracy not feel like a dead level for such a long stretch. You won't be able to quicken cast it, but your teammates certainly aren't going to complain if you start combat out by granting everyone advantage against a few enemies.
I actually had an NPC enemy use a build that was kind of similar. Basically he was an Arcane Trickster with extra attack. He cast G. Invisibility on himself and had slippers of spider climb. He almost TPK'd the party but they talked their way out of it lol.
I have a level 10 valor bard that follows this general concept, but I solved the issue of action economy by taking both guardian of nature and find greater steed for magical secrets. Guardian is a BA, so you can do that and attack during round 1, and it gives advantage on con saves, improving the odds you have triple advantage. It also gives you and your new Pegasus some temp hp. Between those and plant growth, you get a real Druidic warrior vibe. At 14, you take sunbeam as a magical secret, allowing you and your mount to shoot blinding beams (at the dm’s discretion), which gives your BA bow attack triple advantage. It could be better optimized, but it’s very straightforward and has been a blast to play. Rolling stats has him with +4’s for dex and cha, so he’s fragile, but that’s part of how I’ve enjoyed playing him
As far as BM maneuvers go, for archery: Precision Attack Ambush Snipe Those are my most useful. Having a high dex plus Ambush for the initiative boost pretty much takes care of needing the Alert feat. (although it’s even better if you can spare the ASI) Snipe is an extra attack as a BA using the dice and it adds to the damage. No need to explain Precision Attack.
Wow, this build is ridiculous. 😂 My DM already has a hard time dealing with my stealthy dex based tabaxi Gloomstalker. This build would make his hair fall out.
one thing worth pointing out about the sleep spell, it affects current hits, not total hits, thus it will still work against stronger creatures if you use it strategically
I'm playing a similar build. Though playing a Thri-Kreen with a heavy crossbow in my main hands, and a hand crossbow in my secondary arms. It does a ton of damage, but the accuracy is a tad lower being I don't have Elven Accuracy. Having advantage on stealth rolls is nice due to Thri-Kree changing color to mix in.
Crossbow expert only procs if you attack with a one handed weapon. Unless you have extra attack and make one attack with the heavy crossbow and one with the hand crossbow to activate crossbow expert the heavy crossbow doesn't achieve anything. And tbh it's probably better to hold a shield than a heavy crossbow, as it's only 3 extra dpr.
@@alexlea8398 okay use dual welder as well there you can use sharpshooter, and lots of shots. That is my goal. I find playing lots of ranged characters that ac does not matter 90% of the time on range characters because creatures tend to attack the things in their face. Crossbow expert is really only there because I don't want to spend a ton of actions reloading.
You said 2 lvls in rogue was a good option. If you were to go more lvls in rogue, than I quite like swashbuckler. As it is the charisma oriented rogue that has a much easier to trigger sneak attack, adding CHA score to initiative is nice, not always needing to disengage is nice and it of course fits the theme and type of the character.
As a DM, when someone does this sort of build (ranged advantage+EAccuracy), the correct response is that the enemy drops prone. If you have some strong melee damage dealers in the party, it still works well, but there are ways to play around this. Also; Dispel Magic does not require you to be able to see the target.
@@xelgodis80085 many of my big bads have subtle spell metamagic for exactly this reason. (the way that WotC has been writing new monster stat blocks in MMotM, indicates that many enemies will have uncounterable magical effects).
@@xelgodis80085 My current Big Bad I made as a 20th level character, rather than using a pre-established stat block. In this case he is 14 Shadow Sorcerer, 6 Conquest Paladin. I usually mix it up with a custom legendary magic item to make the character more unique; in this case he has a magic item that causes a permanent Shadows of Moil effect on him (it is in the form of the dormant/awakened/exalted, so if the players get hold of it, it won't be OP until the demigod tier of play). To be even more fun, instead of just returning some necrotic damage, when struck a Shadow appears and attacks the player in question. It's going to be a fun showdown for sure.
@@burningwp Well yes, but there are too many DMs out there which just run stat blocks as written without considering how to play around basic stuff like counterspell.
Oddly enough I had the rare occasion come up as a DM where a player effectively used countercharm. The party were facing Magen who had unlimited Suggestion, but creatures become immune if they save. Actually turned the tide of the combat giving everyone around him advantage.
A totally different build would be to use Armorer gauntlets with greater invis as a tank/protector. Make use good of the disadvantage on attacks to you, throw in bonus action hide, maybe as Goblin. You could run from an enemy without OA (to hit multiple enemies) because they need to "see" you for OA. Could get Greater Invis from L13 Armorer, or just do L3-5 Armorer and get it from Sorc probably then. Way less damage without being able to use SS/GWM on the gauntlets, but doing great projection/tanking instead. The build with much bigger damage and ranged attacks is probably better overall but this would be fun and different and still strong with good spell options and infusion to boot.
This is awesome, and I also really like the discussion of bard spell picks as you progress! One question...does it work better/ sooner and save a feat or garner Rres Wis if you start fighter 1 and then go bard ..Sorc... etc?
You could do that, your wisdom save will blow, but it would help with concentration. To a large degree I avoided concentration spells until you get to the quicken GI
Fighter 1 for archery from levels 1-12 sounds pretty good plus you can take sharpshooter at bard 4 and combine with faerie fire for decently reliable advantage while you wait for greater invisibility I’ve seen some Battlesmith Artificer builds do similar things and stay close to baseline at low levels
And starting with Elf Fighter u can play the "nimble magic archer" from the begginer of the campaign. Not a Caster with a bow. And been a "main damage dealer" from stater too.
First of all, great concept. I really liked it. The only problem I have is that the concept really comes to life at level 12. The real damage really comes at level 16. I was wondering if there's a way to start with getting reliable advantage sooner with just sorcerer levels. I think if you go with 6 levels in fighter first, then you have your bow based fighter already with elven accuracy, sharp shooter and 2 attacks per attack action. If you then take 4 levels of shadow sorcerer, you can at least quick cast darkness (which costs 4 sorcery points) through which you can see. Then you could do the bow attacks with advantage. You can also take the After that, increase your sorcerer levels to level 8 to get the proper greater invisibility so you don't bother your party members. With the ASI you can increase your dex to 20. You're now a level 14 character. You can now cast Greater invisibility 2 times and to create a new 4th level spell slot costs 6 sorcery points. If you convert all your lower level spells to sorcery points, you get (4*1+3*2+3*3-) 19 sorcery points. With the 8 you get for being a level 8 sorcerer, you have 27 sorcery points. You use 4 for quick casting Greater Invisibility. that leaves 23 to create new spell slots and quick casting them. In essence casting a level 4 greater invisibility costs 8 sorcery points if you need to create the spell slot. You can cast greater invisibility 4 times per long rest (with 23-16=7 sorcery points left). Now increase your fighter level to level 11 (level 19 character) so you have 3 attacks per attack action. That should increase the damage you can do by quite a lot (should be more than 33% because if you only had 2 attacks per attack action, you could do 3 attacks per round with the bonus action. Now you can do 4) The last level should go into sorcerer (sorcerer 9, fighter 11). You can now do greater invisibility quickened 6 times per long rest. You won't have the extra blade flourish to increase your defense, but you deal more damage earlier on.
Fyi, just so people know lvl 3 sorcerer is locked at 3 sorcery points, that work with font of magic. Metamagic adept deepening on raw vs rai may mean that +2 sp may not work with flexible casting.
I'd be tempted to try to use a Hexblade, go at least to level 7 for extra attack, improved pact weapon, eldritch smite, eldritch mind and grab Shadow of Moil at 7th level. It's no Greater Invisibility, but still really good. Grab elven accuracy, sharpshooter for feats, go sorcerer from 7 onwards, picking up metamagic and more spell slots (one could turn these sorcerer spell slots into sorcerery points, then into warlock spell slots for more smites).
Djinni Genie Warlock gets Greater Invisibility, I've done a write up on this build and I think it'd be a blast, we can Quicken Eldritch Blasts and make the attack action in the same round.
while watching the prerequisite video about invisibility i was thinking about ways to circumvent the action cost of greater invisibility and the obvious and probably best way is metamagic but in situations where you can anticipate combat, the chronurgy wizard's arcane abeyance could also kind of work, offloading the action cost onto someone else (realistically a familiar). i don't have the brain space to crunch numbers but i feel like that build goes something like: start fighter 1 for armor and weapon and con save proficiencies plus the fighting style, then go at least wizard 8 to get some of the feats you need plus greater invisibility. after that maybe you pause to go fighter 5 to get action surge and extra attack, plus the last big feat? then wizard 10 to finally pick up arcane abeyance. once that's all online you can have one fight per short rest where you can use arcane abeyance greater invisibility + either haste and attack or spirit shroud (my gut tells me spirit shroud is more damage but haste has those defensive and movement bonuses that i find compelling) + action surge for two attacks if you're worried about your opening turn being slow + a bonus action crossbow expert attack if you chose haste, or a regular attack action if you chose spirit shroud. now all this comes with the caveats, of course, that you 1) delay your first turn to be right after your familiar (since you're anticipating a fight anyway for the full combo to work you could even gift of alacrity your own familiar), 2) you can keep your familiar safe the whole fight, and 3) again you can only do the full combo once per short rest (although if you're not anticipating needing the full combo you could maybe just do like arcane abeyance one fight and action surge in a different fight). and also i guess if you're worried about your familiar dying and leaving you visible and vulnerable you could pass on the raw damage of haste/spirit shroud in favor of the extra survivability of polymorph, or even a control spell like a hypnotic pattern or wall of force or something. obviously the big downside of this build is that you're not progressing your extra attack and your spell slots at the same time the way the bard build does. there will be a few levels in the midgame where you're not quite a decent damage dealer so you're just a worse wizard. if that's an issue maybe you could consider taking all your fighter levels up front which might feel better than the weird divided approach i outlined? a better optimizer than me could tell you the right path to take
after some brief research i've realized that there's no way RaW to delay your turn until later in the initiative so you kind of have to hope your familiar beats your initiative or else just spend turn 1 setting up instead of doing damage. just another reason the bard + metamagic build is more reliable. HOWEVER i still think the chronurgy build is fun and i kinda want to try it just to see
one thing i would consider is ranger 3.. gloomstalker for an extra attack in the first round of combat, with extra damage which can also give you an extra attack during action surge.
Very cool route with bard!! I was almost certain you would go warlock, either genie(djinni) or undead then sorcerer. Do you feel this would work as well similar to your spellbow?
I know the opportunity cost is pretty bonus action dependent for deploying the curse, but I think taking hexblade (1+) would have been better. Hex warrior cha attacks is limited to one handed weapons [no mention of melee typing] and is independent of blade pact, so the hand crossbow is fair game, provided that you get extra attack through means other than the Thirsting Blade invocation. Being Cha based nets you a better spell DC, more inspiration, and if you can set up the curse you can add on a chunk of dmg [bonus = to proficiency *per* hit and an improved crit range for a 27% chance with elven accuracy against one target/sr] Relatedly, even with the improved pact weapon invocation, hand crossbows can't innately be conjured as a pact weapon, so for any bladelock looking to use extra attack, they would either need to acquire a magical hand crossbow to ritually turn into their pact weapon [improve pact weapon is not required for this] or gain extra attack through another means [and it would not qualify for eldritch smite or lifedrinker] Also I would have taken fighter 1 or 2 from the start for this build. Archery fighting style, con save proficiency and action surge can be used as like a quickened spell that returns on a short rest [while leaving your bonus action available], before you get the sorcerer levels.
Currently playing a swords bard with a shortbow of cupidity (+1) and some +1 arrows doing just this at 7th level. Works just as well with upcasting Blindness at times, especially since I have an item that gives me a +2 to spell save DC! Shameless plug for Odyssey of the Dragonlords campaign! Did 88 points of damage in rounds 2 & 3, super fun!
Have we considered skulker here? Sad that it doesn't give us TOO much, but it feels like not having projectiles give us away could be very powerful, particularly if we dip rogue for hide
I think it's funny how the power curve on this one develops. Usually, martials peak early and fall off, and casters start slower and peak at later levels. In this case, you turn your caster INTO a martial, who peaks at later levels.
Half elf. Spread point buy scores around with mods until 17 Dex 16 con 13 wisdom 13 charisma. Gloomstalker ranger til level 5, picking up sharpshooter at level 4. Divine Sorcerer for 7 levels until greater invisibility unlocked. Pick up elven accuracy at sorcerer 4, total level 9. Pick spells from both lists that don’t rely on ability scores. Darkness around you have invisible bs most creatures without slot. Quicken bless for you and party. Quicken greater when you can be seen.
I would’ve taken pai warrior. It’s maybe 'only' a d6 but you get like ten of them… and you pick up a lot of cool utility outside of combat. Otherwise this build is really awesome
@treantmonk Did you ever consider using the Genie Warlock instead of Swords Bard? Djinni gets Greater Invis on it's spell list, and there's tons of other benefits to going Warlock (More damage from Genie subclass, Invocations, etc). Then when you start taking Sorc levels, you could quicken Eldritch Blasts with Agonizing Blast as your Bonus Action (which I think would be viable at later levels, as we don't need spell slots for spells, so we can constantly be topping up our sorc point pool).
Too bad, I figured you would implement the firbolg as well, but I guess there's no point of having advantage if you lack elven accuracy. Well, to be fair, there is a point: not provoking opportunity attacks with booming blade. That could work on a bladesinger build or maybe an arcane trickster
I think I would have taken sharpshooter at 4 and Elven accuracy at 8 since we would not be getting advantage that much until we can go invisible anyway. At level 4, ACs wouldn't be that high anyway.
I love it, but playing this from level one would be an exercise in frustration because all you are doing is waiting until it comes 'online' Of course you are just as effective as a regular bard, but still....
@@UEGDonkey True but you can be a very effective at buffing and battlefield control. Plus, many of the spells Chris picked are non-concentration, no save spells like Plant Growth, Misty Step, etc. Add in Vortex Warp and you can still be a real support for your party.
@@futurecaredesign Bard gets very few combat spells that don't rely on your saving throw DC and your BI which is your key unique feature relies on CHA as well. It's very hard to justify not taking a Hexblade dip for a Swords Bard, otherwise you get kind of stuck as an average martial using your spells for healing and utility.
What do you think of a Drow ranged attacker that tries to stay more than 60 feet from the enemy it’s attacking. In normal darkness, you can see your foe 70 feet away, but they can’t see you. Or is it unrealistic to think we’ll get the right lighting and distance opportunities?
As a DM I find that very unreliable. It might work in an Underdark campaign that takes place in large open caverns, but other than that I would forget about this.
I love this video would there be a way to incorporate this same type concept but alter it into an invisible rogue grappler. Could you imagine grappling an enemy and giving advantage to your allies and yourself while sneak attacking over and over and them having disadvantage on their attacks.
No, Arcane Trickster spell progression is too slow, greater invisibility wouldn't be available until end game. Taking 7 levels of a full caster to get greater invisibility would cripple your sneak attack. Ideally you should simply play a grappler build and rely on one of your allies to turn you invisible. Particularly if you have a full Sorcerer in the party, Twinned Greater Invisibility on two martials in your party is a great option.
@@agilemind6241 I was actually thinking about doing a grapple bard build focusing around strength instead of dex... maybe a lizardman then doing sorcerer just like treant monk did then three levels fight for rune knight and the finishing out rogue for sneak attack and rogue soul knife to finish it out
A Strength-based Sorcerer that goes into melee is going to be dead pretty quickly. 7 levels of squishiness is a really high price to pay. You'd be much better off going 8-Rune Knight for your Largeness and the two 7th level Runes so you can give yourself Resistance to physical damage and Advantage on saving thows (FS: Dueling, Feats/ASI : Tavern Brawler, +2 STR). Then take Hexblade-1 (or Sorcerer-1) followed by 5 Swords Bard. Simply Grapple + Shove Prone to give enemies DA on attacks and yourself Adv, grab 1 level of Rogue or Ranger for Expertise in Athletics
Instead of investing so heavily into sorcerer to get invisibility, What about playing a Duergar instead? They get invisibility and can use the bard spell slots to use it
Too bad charisma based attacks are a hexblade specific feature instead of pact of the blade feature. If it was, you could make a really fun bladelock spellbow with this instead of bard. But that is very much dependent on short rests...
What about taking ranger for 3 levels getting gloomstalker then have that extra 1st round attack and when in the dark you can save your greater invisibility
I would think that Rogue levels would be valuable for the guaranteed Sneak Attack damage, no? I am wondering if there is any way to work significant Phantom Rogue levels into this, even if it's just at high levels. I also wonder if starting with a level of Sorc or Fighter would be worth it so that you don't later need Resilient (CON)? I recognize that hurts a lot at early levels though.
Sorc 1/Bard 8/Sorc to 3/Rogue 9 5 Elven Accuracy 9 Sharpshooter 15 Crossbow Expert (or Fighting Initiate Archery?) 19 +2 Dex Removed Sorc 4 and Fighter levels. Felt like Crossbow Expert could wait a few levels of Rogue. Almost skipped it entirely, because bonus action can be Healing Word, Misty Step, or Cunning Action and is already reserved every first round for Greater Invisibility.
Do you think it's valuable to take Bard to 9 and choose Counterspell with one of your Magical Secrets? This would be to counter Faerie Fire, Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern etc, protecting Greater Invisibility? Edit: Could also be done via Sorcerer 5. Mostly concerned with have no counter for so long on the build, but that may not come up often enough to warrant delaying the Fighter levels.
Hey Chris I really enjoy your videos. However it seems odd that you'd advocate for this type of build. I suppose its a better alternative than the darkness devils sight combination. Spellbow builds are hard to do right, swift quiver bard with a level in fighter gives you more attacks and its not a great build and I think you've stated you wouldn't recommend it. Keep up the great work
I'd disagree, spellbow builds are easy b/c archery is fundamentally OP in 5e. All you need is Extra Attack and any spell that gives extra attacks or bonuses to hit. Can easily be done with a Bladesinger, Warlock, Swords Bard, Paladin, Artificer or Ranger.
As I know you're a fan of control spells, any reason you haven't mentioned Nathair's Mischief as a lower level recommendation? This is usually my goto when I don't have access to Web, but maybe you find it lackluster?
So looking at the spell and something you said made me see a loop hole that you could get this online a lot quicker. If you change to a smaller race and ride a mount like a dog or something. You cast invisible on the mount it is carrying you and you can attack all you want because the target of the spell never attacks. Tell me I am wrong.
Someone has to explain why 2 levels of warlock + levels of sorcerer, for eldritch blast + agonizing blast, wasn't used. Why it's not optimal? Like why treatent monk didn't use this? Like is it because of sharpshooter...🤔. Thus on each attack you get more damage?
I find it hard to believe 2-3x 1d8+13 is better than 6x 1d10+5. Not to mention that this build assumes you can keep concentration of greater invisibility at all times, which I mean just isn't going to be the case at higher levels where you're looking at 70+ damage AoE effects.
ya, I feel like SS+CBX is not really pulling it's weight. The build is so MAD, multiclass and feat intensive. At character level 12 a warlock 3/sorc 9 could have maxed Cha with elven accuracy, and gotten greater invisibility and 5th level spells with a ton of sorcery points, and recovers 4/sr from warlock slots. -With hexblade's curse* they can bump it up to dealing 1d10+5 cha + proficiency per hit and an increased crit range [and critting harder] with no accuracy reduction [* HBC requires being with 30' of target and is limited to one target/sr]. From level's 9-12 the sorlocks attacks are at 5 + 4 prof vs SS-CBX's -1 + 4 prof when using sharpshooter.
At the levels Greater Invisibility comes online, you can reliably quicken EB much more than you can cast GI or use blade flourishes or superiority dice. GI is a 4th level spell! That's 6 sorcerery points to get an extra casting (or equivalent to 3x quickened EBs = 9x 1d10+5). Hexblade or Genie adds damage to you EB, as does Hex which may be better than Adv since we don't have the -5 penalty to hit - or if we have Adv from another source other than GI.
I like it, but wow does that come on late! I know this is a meme build, but if you really want advantage that bad, just play a volobold. Sure you miss out on EA, but at least you’ve got reliable advantage, concentration free, before the campaign ends.
What about losing the bard levels and going sorc/fight? Instead of being "just a bard" through 6, you could be "just a fighter" through 5. You aren't leaning in to invis until lvl 8 anyway which at fighter 5 sorcerer 3 you could get adv through web. I guess maybe it violates concept some?
@@plop0r actually hexblade cha attacks are independent of the blade pact and don't need to be a melee weapon, it only specifies a one handed weapon, so hand crossbows are in play. Non-hexblade pacts actually can't really even use hand crossbows, improved pact weapons doesn't list that as an option to conjure. So unless they acquire a magic hand crossbow to transform into the pact weapon [no invocation required], they're out of luck.
@@TreantmonksTemple oh goodness and you talked about sharpshooter in the DPR calc the whole rest of the time too…my goodness… must’ve been a long day for me… sorry again! And thank you.
that's a long time to wait for your build to 'start' when most games seem to only get to about lvl14. if you want to play a cool archer, not really playing an archer for 70% of your campaign feels hard to justify.
You said you could game the system by using your longbow on round 1 instead of the hand crossbow. But why use a measly d8 when you could have a d10?! You've got CBE! Extra Attack is no problem. I wonder what percent of their carry weight this 8 STR character is reaching with their 3 weapons and 2 ammunition types? Oh well, DMs don't track that anyway. Bring up your weapon wheel!
You know, one thing I've always disliked... Hand Crossbows do more damage than Longbows in 5e. Due to Crossbow Expert and stuff. Like, I don't think that's realistic. Idk, maybe it is. Especially with modern tech. But medieval crossbows vs longbows? I don't think a "hand" crossbow would be deadlier than a longbow/war bow. And I just think it feels bad. Especially if you're not being harassed in melted range. Like sure, I'll give you disadvantage of an enemy is within 5ft. That's reasonable with a longbow. But if no enemies are that close? I think a longbow should do at least equal damage, if not more. And Lars Ulrich or whoever proves you can shoot fast, while "reloading" AND moving. In D&D you likely wouldn't even be moving so much. So I absolutely just dislike how shafted longbows are. (Pun intended)
Totally agree, TBH handcrossbows were extremely rare historically because they definitely wouldn't pierce armour and wouldn't have much range. 5e should have made them 1d4 weapons with range of 20/60 : aka similar to a thrown dagger.
You glossed over Blade flourish pretty quickly. Despite the fact that it doesn't specify Melee Attack, the feature is called Blade flourish. Seems like that is a talking point for player and DM. I would not say a DM is being unreasonable if they disallowed a ranged attack.
Worst thing about this build is no one can see how awesome it is…
Woomp Woomp.
I'd direct you to the door if i could find you
Have a like lol
that's clever
That's.......... Genius
"If you're unfamiliar with Countercharm, Keep It That Way!"
Words to live by circa 2022
U think it will improuve? Or be iliminated?
There's a lot of interesting alternatives that could be done with this build.
One level of Hexblade could get you CHA attacks with a hand crossbow. Since the majority of the levels are in CHA casters and you have medium armour, being able to focus on CHA and CON seems relevant.
I could see instead of going 4 levels of fighter going 1 level of fighter, and then taking the rest of the levels in Bard. This would (eventually) get you to Bard 14 (at character level 19 or so) but would also get you magical secrets at character level 15.
I could see starting in a class with CON saving throws (Fighter or Sorcerer).
Although I think the big way to improve on builds like this is just...teamwork and trust. Talk to one of your fellow players, have one of you grab greater invisibility while the other goes fighter 11 with Elven Accuracy.
I think Sleep is somewhat underrated at higher levels.
Sure, it's not the encounter ender that it is at early game and does get outclasse by Hypnotic Pattern and other spells later on, but it has a niche as a reliable finisher. My Bard once used it on an Adult Dragon that still had Legendary Resistance uses left, to rob it of its last turn and grant my Barbarian a free follow-up crit, eventually felling it. I can't think of a better spell to use in that situation and it reignited my respect for the Sleep spell.
On your linked Character sheet, under class features there is a no choice made for ability score improvement. Just FYI.
Got it, thanks
Missed opportunity when you were saying the build was 69% over baseline to say "nice" damage lol
Honestly, one of my favorite things about this build is the versatility. As much as I enjoy being referred to by the name Max Damage during my gaming sessions, I have the most fun when I'm dancing across a battlefield with a cornucopia of potential actions at my disposal. It adds novelty to combat, and a certain strategic advantage; insofar as unpredictability factors in to the DM's encounter resolutions. I'd rather go to gymnastics class & suck at it, then just do bicep curls all day. This build is a fun one, I'm imagining it with a Middle Eastern vide, like the Hashashin from Assassin's Creed.
The invisible flying griffin with the mounted invisible attacker is pretty tough to pass up.
I could definitely see unleashing a reflavored/simplified version of this build on my players someday. Not sure if it's one I'd make as a player, but it's a great concept.
A crossbow wielding bard that uses magic to turn their enemies into pincushions. This is basically Chris from Symphogear and I'm loving it!
I’m playing a bladesinger wizard that is using this as well. My dm dropped a custom magic item that was a dagger that did 4d8 extra damage, but only when you were unseen by the person you attack with it. I’ve been using blindness to fulfill the condition up until now so I could attack a single target sometimes with it, but now that I’ve got greater invisibility I’m going to be using that for when there’s multiple enemies since it also gives higher chance for me to hit and, when combined with bladesong makes me nearly impossible to hit, and even when they do I can just sheild.
Woot! Always wanted an invisibility build!
Another build idea could be Chronurgy Wizard / Battle Smith Artificer. You can have your Steel Defender / Homunculus Servant give you Greater Invisibility through Arcane Abeyance once per short rest.
Of course it uses Chronurgy Wizard, which you might not want to use due to its power level.
Video idea: a tier list with all the builds you have done in the channel during these years :-)
Love the idea, but the ones that came out years ago, when we only had the PHB are at a huge disadvantage
Thanks for sharing! I have a fighter/bard archer build that I play in adventurers league games to great success. Luckily he has the cloak of invisibility waiting in the wings for play in T4 when I get there.
So glad to see Treantmonk vs Archery Bard! I actually just did a build similar to this for my channel, albeit I advocated for going bard the whole way, with an emphasis on Faerie Fire and spells that don't call for Charisma rolls, though Greater Invisibility is great of course! A sorcerer dip for more spells is such a cool idea - on my end I just emphasized that taking Bard 14 would let us grab Contingency so as to cast Greater Invisibility with a wink or a stamp of your foot. It's not Font of Magic, but it's something! And hey, you get simulacrum! 😀
I'd love to see the whole vid to compare! It sounds like your build is solid too and def has some interesting stuff going for it.
Take a look! 🙂
ruclips.net/video/Q3WvjMODnhM/видео.html&ab_channel=ConcreteCharacterSheet
I like the build a lot. I would swap one of the 2nd level spells for See Invisibility and two of the 1st level spells for Faerie Fire and Dissonant Whispers.
You need to maintain advantage, and if a creature is invisible, your elven accuracy doesn't mean a thing. See Invisibility let's you see them, and then you can cast G. Invis next round to get your advantage attacks.
Or, simply quicken Faerie Fire and that will be your way to get advantage on attacks and you'll be good to attack on round 1 albeit with less defensive capabilites.
Dissonant Whispers potentially props AoO (JC has made tweets going both ways) which is more helpful than Tasha's (for you at least) because Tasha's drops them prone AND uses concentration. Prone negates your advantage with GI, and Tashas concentration means it doesn't stack with GI anyways. Dissonant is instantaneous and pushes people away. If your GM allows it to proc AoO, it's even better. Until GI, you want people as far away as possible because of your not great AC.
I would also get Control Flames when you choose Sorc cantrips. If an NPC is hiding, you won't be able to see them. If you increase the light nearby, it COULD make it so they don't have an area to hide. Alternatively, if you're out of GI spells, Quicken Faerie Fire and then use Control Flames to take all the light from flames out of the space. The enemy will still be covered by the Faerie Fire, and you will be in darkness for heavy obscurement (disadvantage on attacks againt you) if they aren't able to see you.
Control Flames, See Invisibility, and Faerie Fire are low level options to ensure you still keep your Advantage.
As he said in his previous video, by RAW see invisibility doesn't let you bypass the disadvantage to attack them clause. Fi your DM rules this differently, as I and others do, then there are going to be a lot of creatures with blindsight and truesight that are going to make this build a lot worse.
@@insertphrasehere15 Good point. See Invisibility would only help in targeting the creature which is good, but so will Faerie Fire. Though SI doesn't involve concentration so *maybe* it's still worthwhile if you need it for targeting spells? I guess if you don't take "target you can see" spells, you can skip it.
Spells requiring sight that are on his list:
Command and Tasha's Laughter (even more of a reason to do D. Whispers or Faerie Fire instead)
Blindness/Deafness (I'd take SI instead, but if you take spells that aren't focused on sight, neither matter opening up an open spot). To be fair, Blindness/Deafness helps early game by giving most of the benefits of Invisibility (arv/disadv) so as long as you keep it for *not* invisible creatures than it still has a use.
Polymorph - maybe take Dimension Door instead? You don't have great mobility options until Sorc 3 gives Misty Step.
I would normally add Silvery Barbs somewhere, but with such a low AC, you're going to get hit a lot anyways. Your best defense is simply not being where the fight and/or staying invisible.
@@vinspad3 control flames only targets nonmagical flame, also faerie fire doesn't create fire. But you're right that faerie fire would be good here. Unlike See Invisibility, faerie fire specifies an affected creature can't benefit from being invisible -removing the condition for the duration, so the accompanying adv/disadv is suspended with the invisibility
@elliot bryant I think you misunderstand my reasoning for Faerie Fire and Control Flames.
My thoughts are that creatures hiding (not invisible) in darkness or heavy obscurement would give disadvantage to your attacks negating your advantage. Control Flames could increase the size of the nonmagical flames which could put a creature from heavy obscurement into light. Taking away the reason for the creature hiding (being in darkness) would trigger 'You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly' and also 'so if you come out of Hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you' portions of the Hiding condition that makes you not hidden anymore. If you, the player, are Invisible, and the other creature is not hidden in any way, you'll continue to have advantage.
Secondly, you can use Control Flames and Faerie Fire together in case you run out of G Invisibility spells to create a similar effect to GI.
Step 1) Quicken Faerie Fire as a bonus action. All within the area that fail the save are attacked at advantage.
Step 2) Cast Control Flames to extinguish the Flames around you. You are correct that Faerie Fire isn't affected. This means that you are in darkness (heavy obscurement) which means others attack you at disadvantage. However, Faerie Fire is still up so anyone who attacks the creatures in the Faerie Fire have advantage.
You having advantage on attacks while they have disadvantage against you is a similar effect as G Invisibility - and you wouldn't come out of your 'heavy obscurement' state just because you attacked, making this combo potentially better than regular Invisibility.
A DM might rule that someone in the darkness has disadvantage on their attack which would negate it. Heavy Obscurement states you can't see *within it* but nothing about seeing outside of it. So if you are in the darkness but the target isn't, and the target has Faerie Fire on it, you should have advantage.
Nice! Imagine a 10th lvl bard riding into battle with a griffon, both invisible. All you need is metamagic adept. Edit. Not enough sorcery points. :(
good news! the caster's spells that are only targeting themselves can also benefit the steed from Find Steed/Greater steed while they're mounted! no metamagic required
@@elliotbryant3459 i think he ment to do it more then once.
@@blubblubwhat ? no metamagic is even required to do this, provided you are mounted on the griffin and cast the greater invisibility on yourself. It's part of Find Steed/Greater Steed's spell description
Taking fighter for your first level gives you, heavy Armour, martial wespon proficiency, +2 to hit archery and more hit pionts. In essence you get to be an archer from the get go. I would then combine this with centaur and mobility to be an incredible skirmisher
If you want to use that heavy armor you'd need 13-15 strength though, which would limit your DEX for bow usage, CHA for casting or CON for survivability, and you wouldn't be eligeble for taking Elven Accuracy anymore if you go Centaur, AND it would delay the bonus action Greater Invisibility cheese by another level.
It's an alternative way to go, but it sounds like you're losing out on a lot.
@@Omni-kyun while being fast rarely makes it into biuld calculations on the actual battle field its effects are often HUGE especially for skirmishers like archers.
This build is the reason why I wish the 2015 UA Favored Soul Sorcerer got published. Straight classed sorcerers need better gish options.
They seem really scared of giving sorcerer a subclass that gets extra attack at level 6 like bladesinger and swords/valor bard. I guess because of maybe quickened haste/greater invis or something similar at lower levels that they think would be too strong.
I think Eldritch Knight needs to get the Extra Attack of the Bladesinger. Why give the best gish attack feature to the best full caster?
preach!
@@roronoa1243 I think it might be more of a class thematic limitation, all of the subclasses mechanics are reflections of some supernatural origin [which is a pretty limiting design space IMO]. So try reverse engineering it, what is an evocative supernatural origin that would really makes sense for a sorcerer to eventually become skilled at wielding weapons? A true-Polymorphed weapon: The Son of a Gun? 😁 seems pretty niche! Joking aside, the only one I've developed really is some manner of Reincarnated Hero origin -like with characters from the Wheel of Time series. I could see easy potential for a sorcerous origin that becomes adept at using specific natural weapons that it grows or something, but developing those skills seem different from becoming adept as a general weapon wielder.
New sorcerous origin concept: a timeline channeller origin [better name pending] -basically the main character from "Everything Everywhere All at Once"
@@elliotbryant3459 I could definitely see a Sorcerer origin based on a supernatural entity connected to weapon use. The 2015 Favored Soul UA themed it around getting these proficiencies from a Divine source but I'd really love a Mechanus Sorcerer that derives its power from magically exacting the order of the universe. There could be ties to Marut and Iron Golems too.
ב"ה
I think that at level 4 when you have elven accuracy (and probably earlier too) Faery Fire is a really good option for a 1st level concentration spell.
Interesting build but I think the mounted combatant approach to getting advantage is more reliable and much less resource hungry. I think arguably it can make better use of magic items as well. Importantly, if you are invisible you probably aren't tanking, and that's a partial role for swords bards pretty often
I love your build videos 💪🏻
I like this build. I think at Divine Soul Sorcerer 3, I'd take Spiritual Weapon for some Bonus Action damage, but know that I'd only be keeping it until Sorcerer 4 when CBE kicks in at which point replace it with Blindness Deafness.
I think early Bard, getting Faerie Fire in your arsenal isn't as good as Greater Invisibility - but it's a lot less expensive to pull off if you want to make that early access to Elven Accuracy not feel like a dead level for such a long stretch. You won't be able to quicken cast it, but your teammates certainly aren't going to complain if you start combat out by granting everyone advantage against a few enemies.
I actually had an NPC enemy use a build that was kind of similar. Basically he was an Arcane Trickster with extra attack. He cast G. Invisibility on himself and had slippers of spider climb. He almost TPK'd the party but they talked their way out of it lol.
I have a level 10 valor bard that follows this general concept, but I solved the issue of action economy by taking both guardian of nature and find greater steed for magical secrets. Guardian is a BA, so you can do that and attack during round 1, and it gives advantage on con saves, improving the odds you have triple advantage. It also gives you and your new Pegasus some temp hp. Between those and plant growth, you get a real Druidic warrior vibe. At 14, you take sunbeam as a magical secret, allowing you and your mount to shoot blinding beams (at the dm’s discretion), which gives your BA bow attack triple advantage.
It could be better optimized, but it’s very straightforward and has been a blast to play. Rolling stats has him with +4’s for dex and cha, so he’s fragile, but that’s part of how I’ve enjoyed playing him
I enjoy these concept videos then a build. Didn't enjoy the conversation about One D&D stuff because of the co-host.
As far as BM maneuvers go, for archery:
Precision Attack
Ambush
Snipe
Those are my most useful. Having a high dex plus Ambush for the initiative boost pretty much takes care of needing the Alert feat. (although it’s even better if you can spare the ASI)
Snipe is an extra attack as a BA using the dice and it adds to the damage.
No need to explain Precision Attack.
Snipe is unreleased UA so most tables won't accept it
Wow, this build is ridiculous. 😂 My DM already has a hard time dealing with my stealthy dex based tabaxi Gloomstalker. This build would make his hair fall out.
We've done it. We made a Skyrim stealth archer that can hide 2 inches away from an observer.
Enemy with 3 arrows sticking out of their face: "Is someone there? Just getting jumpy I guess."
Thanks for this build. This is amazing.
one thing worth pointing out about the sleep spell, it affects current hits, not total hits, thus it will still work against stronger creatures if you use it strategically
I'm playing a similar build. Though playing a Thri-Kreen with a heavy crossbow in my main hands, and a hand crossbow in my secondary arms. It does a ton of damage, but the accuracy is a tad lower being I don't have Elven Accuracy. Having advantage on stealth rolls is nice due to Thri-Kree changing color to mix in.
This sounds like such a fun build concept!
@@Trial88 Thanks.
Crossbow expert only procs if you attack with a one handed weapon. Unless you have extra attack and make one attack with the heavy crossbow and one with the hand crossbow to activate crossbow expert the heavy crossbow doesn't achieve anything. And tbh it's probably better to hold a shield than a heavy crossbow, as it's only 3 extra dpr.
@@alexlea8398 okay use dual welder as well there you can use sharpshooter, and lots of shots. That is my goal. I find playing lots of ranged characters that ac does not matter 90% of the time on range characters because creatures tend to attack the things in their face. Crossbow expert is really only there because I don't want to spend a ton of actions reloading.
@@marks2807 you can't dual wield ranged weapons, only melee.
You said 2 lvls in rogue was a good option. If you were to go more lvls in rogue, than I quite like swashbuckler. As it is the charisma oriented rogue that has a much easier to trigger sneak attack, adding CHA score to initiative is nice, not always needing to disengage is nice and it of course fits the theme and type of the character.
As a DM, when someone does this sort of build (ranged advantage+EAccuracy), the correct response is that the enemy drops prone.
If you have some strong melee damage dealers in the party, it still works well, but there are ways to play around this.
Also; Dispel Magic does not require you to be able to see the target.
gl casting anything at all, counterspelled.
@@xelgodis80085 many of my big bads have subtle spell metamagic for exactly this reason. (the way that WotC has been writing new monster stat blocks in MMotM, indicates that many enemies will have uncounterable magical effects).
@@xelgodis80085 My current Big Bad I made as a 20th level character, rather than using a pre-established stat block.
In this case he is 14 Shadow Sorcerer, 6 Conquest Paladin.
I usually mix it up with a custom legendary magic item to make the character more unique; in this case he has a magic item that causes a permanent Shadows of Moil effect on him (it is in the form of the dormant/awakened/exalted, so if the players get hold of it, it won't be OP until the demigod tier of play). To be even more fun, instead of just returning some necrotic damage, when struck a Shadow appears and attacks the player in question.
It's going to be a fun showdown for sure.
If you're trying to make a big bad challenging, that's fine. But just trying to make things difficult for your PCs is too easy. I mean, you're the DM.
@@burningwp Well yes, but there are too many DMs out there which just run stat blocks as written without considering how to play around basic stuff like counterspell.
Oddly enough I had the rare occasion come up as a DM where a player effectively used countercharm. The party were facing Magen who had unlimited Suggestion, but creatures become immune if they save. Actually turned the tide of the combat giving everyone around him advantage.
Hexblades curse, would double your crit chance, and add a nice chunk of damage for a single level.
A totally different build would be to use Armorer gauntlets with greater invis as a tank/protector. Make use good of the disadvantage on attacks to you, throw in bonus action hide, maybe as Goblin. You could run from an enemy without OA (to hit multiple enemies) because they need to "see" you for OA. Could get Greater Invis from L13 Armorer, or just do L3-5 Armorer and get it from Sorc probably then. Way less damage without being able to use SS/GWM on the gauntlets, but doing great projection/tanking instead. The build with much bigger damage and ranged attacks is probably better overall but this would be fun and different and still strong with good spell options and infusion to boot.
This is awesome, and I also really like the discussion of bard spell picks as you progress!
One question...does it work better/ sooner and save a feat or garner Rres Wis if you start fighter 1 and then go bard ..Sorc... etc?
You could do that, your wisdom save will blow, but it would help with concentration. To a large degree I avoided concentration spells until you get to the quicken GI
Fighter 1 for archery from levels 1-12 sounds pretty good plus you can take sharpshooter at bard 4 and combine with faerie fire for decently reliable advantage while you wait for greater invisibility
I’ve seen some Battlesmith Artificer builds do similar things and stay close to baseline at low levels
And starting with Elf Fighter u can play the "nimble magic archer" from the begginer of the campaign. Not a Caster with a bow.
And been a "main damage dealer" from stater too.
First of all, great concept. I really liked it. The only problem I have is that the concept really comes to life at level 12. The real damage really comes at level 16. I was wondering if there's a way to start with getting reliable advantage sooner with just sorcerer levels.
I think if you go with 6 levels in fighter first, then you have your bow based fighter already with elven accuracy, sharp shooter and 2 attacks per attack action. If you then take 4 levels of shadow sorcerer, you can at least quick cast darkness (which costs 4 sorcery points) through which you can see. Then you could do the bow attacks with advantage. You can also take the
After that, increase your sorcerer levels to level 8 to get the proper greater invisibility so you don't bother your party members. With the ASI you can increase your dex to 20. You're now a level 14 character. You can now cast Greater invisibility 2 times and to create a new 4th level spell slot costs 6 sorcery points. If you convert all your lower level spells to sorcery points, you get (4*1+3*2+3*3-) 19 sorcery points. With the 8 you get for being a level 8 sorcerer, you have 27 sorcery points. You use 4 for quick casting Greater Invisibility. that leaves 23 to create new spell slots and quick casting them. In essence casting a level 4 greater invisibility costs 8 sorcery points if you need to create the spell slot. You can cast greater invisibility 4 times per long rest (with 23-16=7 sorcery points left).
Now increase your fighter level to level 11 (level 19 character) so you have 3 attacks per attack action. That should increase the damage you can do by quite a lot (should be more than 33% because if you only had 2 attacks per attack action, you could do 3 attacks per round with the bonus action. Now you can do 4)
The last level should go into sorcerer (sorcerer 9, fighter 11). You can now do greater invisibility quickened 6 times per long rest.
You won't have the extra blade flourish to increase your defense, but you deal more damage earlier on.
Fyi, just so people know lvl 3 sorcerer is locked at 3 sorcery points, that work with font of magic.
Metamagic adept deepening on raw vs rai may mean that +2 sp may not work with flexible casting.
I'd be tempted to try to use a Hexblade, go at least to level 7 for extra attack, improved pact weapon, eldritch smite, eldritch mind and grab Shadow of Moil at 7th level. It's no Greater Invisibility, but still really good. Grab elven accuracy, sharpshooter for feats, go sorcerer from 7 onwards, picking up metamagic and more spell slots (one could turn these sorcerer spell slots into sorcerery points, then into warlock spell slots for more smites).
yeh shadow of moil is a great alternative.
Djinni Genie Warlock gets Greater Invisibility, I've done a write up on this build and I think it'd be a blast, we can Quicken Eldritch Blasts and make the attack action in the same round.
while watching the prerequisite video about invisibility i was thinking about ways to circumvent the action cost of greater invisibility and the obvious and probably best way is metamagic but in situations where you can anticipate combat, the chronurgy wizard's arcane abeyance could also kind of work, offloading the action cost onto someone else (realistically a familiar). i don't have the brain space to crunch numbers but i feel like that build goes something like: start fighter 1 for armor and weapon and con save proficiencies plus the fighting style, then go at least wizard 8 to get some of the feats you need plus greater invisibility. after that maybe you pause to go fighter 5 to get action surge and extra attack, plus the last big feat? then wizard 10 to finally pick up arcane abeyance. once that's all online you can have one fight per short rest where you can use arcane abeyance greater invisibility + either haste and attack or spirit shroud (my gut tells me spirit shroud is more damage but haste has those defensive and movement bonuses that i find compelling) + action surge for two attacks if you're worried about your opening turn being slow + a bonus action crossbow expert attack if you chose haste, or a regular attack action if you chose spirit shroud. now all this comes with the caveats, of course, that you 1) delay your first turn to be right after your familiar (since you're anticipating a fight anyway for the full combo to work you could even gift of alacrity your own familiar), 2) you can keep your familiar safe the whole fight, and 3) again you can only do the full combo once per short rest (although if you're not anticipating needing the full combo you could maybe just do like arcane abeyance one fight and action surge in a different fight). and also i guess if you're worried about your familiar dying and leaving you visible and vulnerable you could pass on the raw damage of haste/spirit shroud in favor of the extra survivability of polymorph, or even a control spell like a hypnotic pattern or wall of force or something. obviously the big downside of this build is that you're not progressing your extra attack and your spell slots at the same time the way the bard build does. there will be a few levels in the midgame where you're not quite a decent damage dealer so you're just a worse wizard. if that's an issue maybe you could consider taking all your fighter levels up front which might feel better than the weird divided approach i outlined? a better optimizer than me could tell you the right path to take
after some brief research i've realized that there's no way RaW to delay your turn until later in the initiative so you kind of have to hope your familiar beats your initiative or else just spend turn 1 setting up instead of doing damage. just another reason the bard + metamagic build is more reliable. HOWEVER i still think the chronurgy build is fun and i kinda want to try it just to see
I'm amazed that Sharpshooter didn't make it into the build... I thought that's why you were going for 4 levels of Fighter.
it was taken at level 8, around 8:13
one thing i would consider is ranger 3.. gloomstalker for an extra attack in the first round of combat, with extra damage which can also give you an extra attack during action surge.
Very cool route with bard!! I was almost certain you would go warlock, either genie(djinni) or undead then sorcerer. Do you feel this would work as well similar to your spellbow?
Djinn is definitely a possibility, you better get lots of short rests though.
@@TreantmonksTemple gotcha (: thanks for your amazing content can’t wait for next playtest and your takes!
Finally, the skyrim stealth archer build
As a whispers bard I wish this was much more viable when compared to other strategies
I know the opportunity cost is pretty bonus action dependent for deploying the curse, but I think taking hexblade (1+) would have been better. Hex warrior cha attacks is limited to one handed weapons [no mention of melee typing] and is independent of blade pact, so the hand crossbow is fair game, provided that you get extra attack through means other than the Thirsting Blade invocation. Being Cha based nets you a better spell DC, more inspiration, and if you can set up the curse you can add on a chunk of dmg [bonus = to proficiency *per* hit and an improved crit range for a 27% chance with elven accuracy against one target/sr]
Relatedly, even with the improved pact weapon invocation, hand crossbows can't innately be conjured as a pact weapon, so for any bladelock looking to use extra attack, they would either need to acquire a magical hand crossbow to ritually turn into their pact weapon [improve pact weapon is not required for this] or gain extra attack through another means [and it would not qualify for eldritch smite or lifedrinker]
Also I would have taken fighter 1 or 2 from the start for this build. Archery fighting style, con save proficiency and action surge can be used as like a quickened spell that returns on a short rest [while leaving your bonus action available], before you get the sorcerer levels.
Currently playing a swords bard with a shortbow of cupidity (+1) and some +1 arrows doing just this at 7th level. Works just as well with upcasting Blindness at times, especially since I have an item that gives me a +2 to spell save DC! Shameless plug for Odyssey of the Dragonlords campaign! Did 88 points of damage in rounds 2 & 3, super fun!
Have we considered skulker here? Sad that it doesn't give us TOO much, but it feels like not having projectiles give us away could be very powerful, particularly if we dip rogue for hide
I think it's funny how the power curve on this one develops. Usually, martials peak early and fall off, and casters start slower and peak at later levels. In this case, you turn your caster INTO a martial, who peaks at later levels.
Half elf. Spread point buy scores around with mods until 17 Dex 16 con 13 wisdom 13 charisma.
Gloomstalker ranger til level 5, picking up sharpshooter at level 4.
Divine Sorcerer for 7 levels until greater invisibility unlocked. Pick up elven accuracy at sorcerer 4, total level 9.
Pick spells from both lists that don’t rely on ability scores.
Darkness around you have invisible bs most creatures without slot. Quicken bless for you and party.
Quicken greater when you can be seen.
Holy weapon as a secret, on each arrow adds up, could 1lvl dip bladelock for hex, high above baseline, I'm sure.
I would’ve taken pai warrior. It’s maybe 'only' a d6 but you get like ten of them… and you pick up a lot of cool utility outside of combat. Otherwise this build is really awesome
I personally love Swift Quiver as one of my magical secrets. 😅
@treantmonk Did you ever consider using the Genie Warlock instead of Swords Bard? Djinni gets Greater Invis on it's spell list, and there's tons of other benefits to going Warlock (More damage from Genie subclass, Invocations, etc). Then when you start taking Sorc levels, you could quicken Eldritch Blasts with Agonizing Blast as your Bonus Action (which I think would be viable at later levels, as we don't need spell slots for spells, so we can constantly be topping up our sorc point pool).
It was considered, but ultimately rejected because of the limitations of thirsting blade/pact blade.
Nice concept, think it'd be fun
Amazing build
Would Swift Quiver from magical secrets not be helpful at times for extra damage?
I think 11 battlemaster/arcane archer/eldritch knight/rune knight (for the double extra attack) and 7 sorc would also be good. 12/8 split for L20.
Too bad, I figured you would implement the firbolg as well, but I guess there's no point of having advantage if you lack elven accuracy. Well, to be fair, there is a point: not provoking opportunity attacks with booming blade. That could work on a bladesinger build or maybe an arcane trickster
I think I would have taken sharpshooter at 4 and Elven accuracy at 8 since we would not be getting advantage that much until we can go invisible anyway. At level 4, ACs wouldn't be that high anyway.
barch- also popular in clash of clans!
I love it, but playing this from level one would be an exercise in frustration because all you are doing is waiting until it comes 'online'
Of course you are just as effective as a regular bard, but still....
CHA stays at 16 throughout the build which is something spellcasting bards are going to improve upon at 1st, 4, or 8th level.
@@UEGDonkey True but you can be a very effective at buffing and battlefield control. Plus, many of the spells Chris picked are non-concentration, no save spells like Plant Growth, Misty Step, etc. Add in Vortex Warp and you can still be a real support for your party.
@@futurecaredesign Bard gets very few combat spells that don't rely on your saving throw DC and your BI which is your key unique feature relies on CHA as well. It's very hard to justify not taking a Hexblade dip for a Swords Bard, otherwise you get kind of stuck as an average martial using your spells for healing and utility.
What do you think of a Drow ranged attacker that tries to stay more than 60 feet from the enemy it’s attacking. In normal darkness, you can see your foe 70 feet away, but they can’t see you. Or is it unrealistic to think we’ll get the right lighting and distance opportunities?
As a DM I find that very unreliable. It might work in an Underdark campaign that takes place in large open caverns, but other than that I would forget about this.
I love this video would there be a way to incorporate this same type concept but alter it into an invisible rogue grappler. Could you imagine grappling an enemy and giving advantage to your allies and yourself while sneak attacking over and over and them having disadvantage on their attacks.
No, Arcane Trickster spell progression is too slow, greater invisibility wouldn't be available until end game. Taking 7 levels of a full caster to get greater invisibility would cripple your sneak attack. Ideally you should simply play a grappler build and rely on one of your allies to turn you invisible. Particularly if you have a full Sorcerer in the party, Twinned Greater Invisibility on two martials in your party is a great option.
@@agilemind6241 I was actually thinking about doing a grapple bard build focusing around strength instead of dex... maybe a lizardman then doing sorcerer just like treant monk did then three levels fight for rune knight and the finishing out rogue for sneak attack and rogue soul knife to finish it out
Sorry obviously the rogue and soul knife are the same thing lol
A Strength-based Sorcerer that goes into melee is going to be dead pretty quickly. 7 levels of squishiness is a really high price to pay.
You'd be much better off going 8-Rune Knight for your Largeness and the two 7th level Runes so you can give yourself Resistance to physical damage and Advantage on saving thows (FS: Dueling, Feats/ASI : Tavern Brawler, +2 STR). Then take Hexblade-1 (or Sorcerer-1) followed by 5 Swords Bard.
Simply Grapple + Shove Prone to give enemies DA on attacks and yourself Adv, grab 1 level of Rogue or Ranger for Expertise in Athletics
Could this come on line earlier with a 1 lvl fighter dip for blindfight style and use of pyrotechnics at bard 3 lvl?
Which Wizard subclass do you think is better? Chronurgy or War Mage?
Chronurgy. War Mage is only good at low levels.
Instead of investing so heavily into sorcerer to get invisibility, What about playing a Duergar instead?
They get invisibility and can use the bard spell slots to use it
Too bad charisma based attacks are a hexblade specific feature instead of pact of the blade feature. If it was, you could make a really fun bladelock spellbow with this instead of bard. But that is very much dependent on short rests...
You could also use a shield once you have crossbow expert and use hand crossbows right?
Barchery
Wow. Impressive
What about taking ranger for 3 levels getting gloomstalker then have that extra 1st round attack and when in the dark you can save your greater invisibility
If you watch the first video you'll see why I prefer the invisible condition
The John Cena build!
I would think that Rogue levels would be valuable for the guaranteed Sneak Attack damage, no? I am wondering if there is any way to work significant Phantom Rogue levels into this, even if it's just at high levels. I also wonder if starting with a level of Sorc or Fighter would be worth it so that you don't later need Resilient (CON)? I recognize that hurts a lot at early levels though.
Sorc 1/Bard 8/Sorc to 3/Rogue 9
5 Elven Accuracy
9 Sharpshooter
15 Crossbow Expert (or Fighting Initiate Archery?)
19 +2 Dex
Removed Sorc 4 and Fighter levels. Felt like Crossbow Expert could wait a few levels of Rogue. Almost skipped it entirely, because bonus action can be Healing Word, Misty Step, or Cunning Action and is already reserved every first round for Greater Invisibility.
Do you think it's valuable to take Bard to 9 and choose Counterspell with one of your Magical Secrets? This would be to counter Faerie Fire, Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern etc, protecting Greater Invisibility?
Edit: Could also be done via Sorcerer 5. Mostly concerned with have no counter for so long on the build, but that may not come up often enough to warrant delaying the Fighter levels.
You don't get magical secrets until 10
@@TreantmonksTemple Doh! Of course!
Hey Chris I really enjoy your videos. However it seems odd that you'd advocate for this type of build. I suppose its a better alternative than the darkness devils sight combination.
Spellbow builds are hard to do right, swift quiver bard with a level in fighter gives you more attacks and its not a great build and I think you've stated you wouldn't recommend it.
Keep up the great work
I'd disagree, spellbow builds are easy b/c archery is fundamentally OP in 5e. All you need is Extra Attack and any spell that gives extra attacks or bonuses to hit. Can easily be done with a Bladesinger, Warlock, Swords Bard, Paladin, Artificer or Ranger.
Why is this so centered around greater invis? Why not just shadow sorcerer and darkness? -_-
As I know you're a fan of control spells, any reason you haven't mentioned Nathair's Mischief as a lower level recommendation? This is usually my goto when I don't have access to Web, but maybe you find it lackluster?
So looking at the spell and something you said made me see a loop hole that you could get this online a lot quicker. If you change to a smaller race and ride a mount like a dog or something. You cast invisible on the mount it is carrying you and you can attack all you want because the target of the spell never attacks. Tell me I am wrong.
Heavily reliance on DM interpretation there. Being mounted on a creature =/= being an object worn or carried by that creature.
@@agilemind6241 So a barbarian carrying a Halfling lol
Someone has to explain why 2 levels of warlock + levels of sorcerer, for eldritch blast + agonizing blast, wasn't used.
Why it's not optimal?
Like why treatent monk didn't use this?
Like is it because of sharpshooter...🤔. Thus on each attack you get more damage?
I find it hard to believe 2-3x 1d8+13 is better than 6x 1d10+5. Not to mention that this build assumes you can keep concentration of greater invisibility at all times, which I mean just isn't going to be the case at higher levels where you're looking at 70+ damage AoE effects.
@@alexsawicki1721 Thank you for the explanation.
ya, I feel like SS+CBX is not really pulling it's weight. The build is so MAD, multiclass and feat intensive. At character level 12 a warlock 3/sorc 9 could have maxed Cha with elven accuracy, and gotten greater invisibility and 5th level spells with a ton of sorcery points, and recovers 4/sr from warlock slots. -With hexblade's curse* they can bump it up to dealing 1d10+5 cha + proficiency per hit and an increased crit range [and critting harder] with no accuracy reduction [* HBC requires being with 30' of target and is limited to one target/sr]. From level's 9-12 the sorlocks attacks are at 5 + 4 prof vs SS-CBX's -1 + 4 prof when using sharpshooter.
At the levels Greater Invisibility comes online, you can reliably quicken EB much more than you can cast GI or use blade flourishes or superiority dice. GI is a 4th level spell! That's 6 sorcerery points to get an extra casting (or equivalent to 3x quickened EBs = 9x 1d10+5). Hexblade or Genie adds damage to you EB, as does Hex which may be better than Adv since we don't have the -5 penalty to hit - or if we have Adv from another source other than GI.
👍🏻
Just curious why not use silvery bards more and grant yourself advantage in a pinch for next round before you get use greater invisibility
It isn't necessarily reliable, and it is a pretty expensive spell at low levels
Because Silvery Barbs is setting dependent and wouldn't be allowed in many games.
I like it, but wow does that come on late! I know this is a meme build, but if you really want advantage that bad, just play a volobold. Sure you miss out on EA, but at least you’ve got reliable advantage, concentration free, before the campaign ends.
Kobold + Samurai Fighter will give you so many ways to ensure advantage, right from low levels.
LOL, gotta love Treantmonk trashing monk b/c stunning strike requires a consave but then loves Blindness/Deafness.
I guess because upcasting allows more targets to potentially fail, rather than just one. But yeah, Con saves on monsters nerf so many cool spells
Using more than 1 ki let's a monk target more than 1 monster with stunning strike.
What about losing the bard levels and going sorc/fight? Instead of being "just a bard" through 6, you could be "just a fighter" through 5. You aren't leaning in to invis until lvl 8 anyway which at fighter 5 sorcerer 3 you could get adv through web. I guess maybe it violates concept some?
High level build .. shame will never get a chance to play it
Did you consider a level in hexblade to end up 20 charisma 14 dex and rely on charisma ?
Would need 3 levels to use a hand crossbow or longbow
@@plop0r actually hexblade cha attacks are independent of the blade pact and don't need to be a melee weapon, it only specifies a one handed weapon, so hand crossbows are in play. Non-hexblade pacts actually can't really even use hand crossbows, improved pact weapons doesn't list that as an option to conjure. So unless they acquire a magic hand crossbow to transform into the pact weapon [no invocation required], they're out of luck.
Swordscerer? Swords Bardcerer?? Idk… some missed opportunity there
Sorcerard?
Sorry, I watched a couple times but I think I still missed it. What ASI did you take at level eight?😅
8:13
@@TreantmonksTemple oh goodness and you talked about sharpshooter in the DPR calc the whole rest of the time too…my goodness… must’ve been a long day for me… sorry again! And thank you.
@@Penumbralvision I had missed selecting it on the linked character sheet, I assume that's where the confusion was. That's since been corrected.
that's a long time to wait for your build to 'start' when most games seem to only get to about lvl14. if you want to play a cool archer, not really playing an archer for 70% of your campaign feels hard to justify.
Chris, I clicked play but I couldn’t see your John Cena build. Clearly something is wrong on your end.
You said you could game the system by using your longbow on round 1 instead of the hand crossbow. But why use a measly d8 when you could have a d10?! You've got CBE! Extra Attack is no problem.
I wonder what percent of their carry weight this 8 STR character is reaching with their 3 weapons and 2 ammunition types? Oh well, DMs don't track that anyway. Bring up your weapon wheel!
:)
You know, one thing I've always disliked... Hand Crossbows do more damage than Longbows in 5e. Due to Crossbow Expert and stuff. Like, I don't think that's realistic. Idk, maybe it is. Especially with modern tech. But medieval crossbows vs longbows? I don't think a "hand" crossbow would be deadlier than a longbow/war bow.
And I just think it feels bad. Especially if you're not being harassed in melted range. Like sure, I'll give you disadvantage of an enemy is within 5ft. That's reasonable with a longbow. But if no enemies are that close? I think a longbow should do at least equal damage, if not more. And Lars Ulrich or whoever proves you can shoot fast, while "reloading" AND moving. In D&D you likely wouldn't even be moving so much. So I absolutely just dislike how shafted longbows are. (Pun intended)
Totally agree, TBH handcrossbows were extremely rare historically because they definitely wouldn't pierce armour and wouldn't have much range. 5e should have made them 1d4 weapons with range of 20/60 : aka similar to a thrown dagger.
Hand crossbow is my least favorite thing about 5e.
but - but arcane archer ...
You glossed over Blade flourish pretty quickly. Despite the fact that it doesn't specify Melee Attack, the feature is called Blade flourish. Seems like that is a talking point for player and DM. I would not say a DM is being unreasonable if they disallowed a ranged attack.