Nice to see some LS1 Dyno testing! Those of us still running them in our 4th gens & C5's do appreciate this😁 Interstate about the second Lunati cam though, seems bit odd that it made less power... it'd be nice to see this setup retested 🤔
Carburetor all the way,my as well shift @55 57 RPMs and watch it ET quicker than winding it up ,Great video I thought the Hp and Torque would be very close just like it is!!!
I love watching the ls1/ls6 builds (along with all others) as I too still have an 05 ctsv. As with most of us we're always looking for that near prefect blend of torque, horsepower, drivability and what the different combinations produce. Thank you for what you do...
Fast 92 intake and throttle body....ported 243s and a 221/221/580/ 580/114 cam have my Monte Carlo a perfect street car and can still run mid to low 11s
The time the exhaust & intake are open at same time, some of the exhaust gases are taking the place of fresh at a bad ratio. 🤷♂️ Just a guess... But definitely a re-test would all teach us something. Great content thanks!!
I always thought any cam with an overlap of zero or below (like both of these baby cams) wouldn't have both valves open at the same time? It is curious though, a 8-12 degree duration split seems to be pretty common among a lot of the 'off the shelf' cams to suit stock cathedral port heads nowadays.
Something was not right with the cam, motor, or tune; that 212/220 cam with a tighter LSA should have been stronger than the 212/228 in every way, and especially up top with the bigger exhaust duration.
Fyi.....those old ls1/ls6 intakes only had a 76mm throat. Opening that up really helped the motor. With a little epoxy you can get them to 80+mm. Then they really start to work since you can use a bigger tb then.
Overscavanging probably..Keith Dorton found that over opening the exhaust duration when you don't have an air restricted engine causes a torque loss. On the 289 he made for the the late Currie Industries Carrera Panamerica 66 Mustang fastback with 500 CFM 2bbl... overscavanging is good.
Any naturally aspirated build meant for racing I always go carb. But boosted combos, always efi! Street combos I prefer efi on both but got some good carb combos on the street do work very well and be reliable. My 632 in my 70 monte has a pro systems 1250 Dom on it that I've never touched in 10 years and it still does what it supposed to for daily use.
My thoughts nearly to the tee. N/a race only use a carb, boost anything use efi, and if it sees more than 10 miles of street driving a weekend use efi. Better engine life and fuel economy. I have a 24x terminator x running my small block and I think you’d be. Crazy not to run efi if you are doing street driving.
@@trevermonk8575 agree completely! The dominator I drive on street is nice but still know efi would be far more efficient. I keep it carb cause simplicity, response and the wow factor....nothing to me looks better sitting on top a big block than a huge toilet bowl carb haha.
A throttle body is a gate valve with less than 100,% efficiency. 12 degree chamfers verses 7 degree hurts throttle progression. But on a carb engine, it's all about square inches of Venturi verses cubic inches of engine. The biggest carb on the best intake, with the right balance or peak power and mid range torque. You add to the info on what an engine responds to...generally. The exceptions...they are either for you personally...or for some others to help you solve. If you didn't ask, you wouldn't get an answer...
The FI vs carb test introduced another variable, though: the added plenum volume of the elbow. Do you think that was significant or insignificant? Also, the common trope about SP vs. DP manifolds is that the SP produces "less signal" at the carb which helps kill bottom end power, but from your test obviously adding FI doesn't fix that. I believe you've performed similar tests on carb vs EFI on a DP and came up with similar results?
And this is why i'm building a setup with 2 stages of injection (full standalone, not some piggy back shit). 1 stock-ish injector per port and 1 extra injector at the top of the runner, best of both worlds. we'll see how it does when It gets on the dyno :) Trying to max out e10 94octane capabilities on 11:1 CR turbo engine, using every tool in my box, cooling charge air, massive intercooler for best power at low boost, huge turbo to reduce backpressure to the max, retarding Intake cam with VTC to bleed off compression, all of that will be tested, can't wait! Just gotta find time to actually work on it.
How about an update “modern” LS1 test? Bore a 5.3 block to 3.900 or so, aluminum L33 would be nice but not necessary for the test, flat top pistons with valve reliefs, and start with 706 and 799 heads, various cams and intakes, etc. Find the point where ported heads or aftermarket, like TFS 215s make sense, and take the testing out to 7500 or so. The NA results could be nice! Of course, just leaving it as a SBE and turbocharging would get results, too, but the NA 5.7 comparison would be interesting. Valve reliefs would make more cams fit…
I have a Texas Speed 224R cam( 224 intake & exhaust , 600 lift on both , on112 lsa) in my 2000 C5 LS1 with headers , Dorman ripoff LS6 intake , stock throttle body , stock 853 heads with PAC beehive springs for the lift and mail order tune . It made 380 whp @ 6,000 , 370 foot pounds @ 4700 . Tuner/Dyno operator said the little heads were really holding it back , he said with 243's he would expect at least 430 , it has a nice choppy idle but is still very driveable with the six speed manual , still makes 320 foot pounds at 2500 rpm , I put some CNC ported 243's on it and can't wait to get it back on the dyno
@@danielcarroll5667 Didn't realize the 243's would make that much difference, I have stock 243's, cam motion Titan 2, 1 7/8 long tubes, 6spd, truck intake stock throttle body in a 2680# S10 5.7 LS1, Lack of Traction is my worse enemy. Has not been on the Dyno.
I'd really like to see a test between a 4150 throttle body with a hat and different 4150 elbows with a 102mm throttle body. Mainly cylinder to cylinder distribution
@@richardholdener1727 how the air enters the same intake manifold has to have some effect especially with high air density from high boost and/or meth injection
...the cam with more exhaust will be appreciated in a nitrous oxide setup, do a test with a nitrous system and swap camshafts between one with the less and that one with more exhaust. Greetings!
Its really just a question a preference. Another advantage to efi is it's usually a lot easier to package, to fit under the hood. If I was on a budget or chasing every last hp I'd carb it. If I wanted the ultamate in drivability and adjustability that fits under the hood, I'd go efi. I suppose tb efi is the best of both worlds.
You can make all the power in the world with EFI, staged injection with the secondary injectors in a TB efi system does about as well with more adjustability.
@@Prestiged_peck More like 3-4k by the time you buy injectors, fuel pump, and run the lines. Fittings are stupid expensive. I did a hp efi on my coyote and it was almost 3k with everything to make it work and I'm still running stock injectors temporarily. And another 1200 bucks for 1200cc e85 injectors. That said, I still think it's worth it. It's amazing all the stuff the hp and dominator can run.
@Richard Holdener, I'm sure you've done a "low-compression" 350 Chevy build at some point. I mean not changing the bottom end and simply adding bolt-ons to it to optimize it. Can you post one of those videos or point me toward one? Thanks!
Love your videos watch all the time, I was wondering what your thoughts are on a cold air intake vs a open air element for a carb setup, I keep getting mixed messages some say the underhood temps especially with headers makes the cold air intake a must for daily driving, and some people are saying the cold air intake restricts airflow so much that it's not worth it ?
I asked him that question about a year ago and he said if you can put a cold air intake on it then do it. Anything you can do to resist pre-detonation is huge. I wanted an open air element just for looks but I have iron heads which won't take timing like aluminum heads. I decided to spend money on reducing underhood temps with ceramic coatings and ducts to reduce underhood temps. I guess I shouldn't have taken so long to type that out haha.
@@c0c0asauce my underhood temps are ridiculous, when the car is idling and I wash the hood the water just steams off, after seeing that I wrapped the headers even though everyone keeps saying it will rot them, which made a huge improvement, idk what else I can do to get those temps down
@@richardholdener1727 so a 4150 accufab will make the same power as an elbow with a blade style throttle body, given that everything else is the same? If that's the case I'll switch to the elbow right now.
Looking at doing a carbureted 6.0 with the all Mighty sloppy stage 2. What would you recommend for carb size? And are they difficult to dial in with air fuel? Thanks for all the great videos!!
I believe you can, but it will raise compression due to the different chamber sizes on head. People use a thicker cometic gasket to stay 91 pump gas out of the eagle heads
Sure do! Because they WORK. One bad wire can leave you walking in a modern vehicle ... and there's thousands of them. Carburetors just don't break, unless they sit with ethanol-mixed gasoline in them. Technology is great, but simple is BETTER.
@@ZboeC5 IMO it was 1995 - from OBD-II on, it was all downhill. But thinking about the entire vehicle, that puts me at 1972, when cars were tough. Metal, not plastic, and a lot of it!
What jets did you run in that 850... I got a 750dp used with 78 in front and 73 in back... and it seem to be too much carb... I just blocked it off at 72... and going to try it Friday.. hopefully it work
sounds silly but what if you had the injectors at the begining of the runners? maybe fab up an intake to try that. the charge cooling would be in effect
Fuel injection or too much cam duration on the exhaust hurts Aspirations Index compared to a well sized carb. Or...Rpm times cubes, divided by power. The lower the resultant value...the better the specific power.
The only advantage for the 90s 5.7 version LT1 vs a LS1 5.7 is torque will be better under 3000rpm on the LT1 but as rpm goes up above 4000 rpm the LS1 carries more torque from 4000rpm up and torque will drop off much more rapidly with a LT1 above 4500rpm where the LS1 will still be making good torque above 5000rpm the thing about the LS1 is peak rpm torque is very close to peak rpm horsepower on the LT1 with both engines being stock peak horsepower for a LT1 is around 5200rpm peak torque for a LS1 is 4800-5000rmp peak torque for the LT1 is at 2400rpm above 4000rpm up the LS1 makes more torque and horsepower than a LT1 stock way more
Nice to see some LS1 Dyno testing! Those of us still running them in our 4th gens & C5's do appreciate this😁
Interstate about the second Lunati cam though, seems bit odd that it made less power... it'd be nice to see this setup retested 🤔
Something with the tune, motor, or cam was not right.
Carburetor all the way,my as well shift @55 57 RPMs and watch it ET quicker than winding it up ,Great video I thought the Hp and Torque would be very close just like it is!!!
I've run both and there is something to be said for efi, for how easy and flexable it is. But carbs definitely have their place.
I love watching the ls1/ls6 builds (along with all others) as I too still have an 05 ctsv. As with most of us we're always looking for that near prefect blend of torque, horsepower, drivability and what the different combinations produce. Thank you for what you do...
Fast 92 intake and throttle body....ported 243s and a 221/221/580/ 580/114 cam have my Monte Carlo a perfect street car and can still run mid to low 11s
@@nicefknmodel2201why not go 103 throttle body and get more air to be able to tune better
@The_Texas_Vette because it was only 500 on marketplace lol
LOVE the LS1 content!!
Love these videos. Valuable info. Carb might have made a little more power but Id rather have the reliability/drivability of fuel injection lol
The time the exhaust & intake are open at same time, some of the exhaust gases are taking the place of fresh at a bad ratio. 🤷♂️ Just a guess... But definitely a re-test would all teach us something. Great content thanks!!
I always thought any cam with an overlap of zero or below (like both of these baby cams) wouldn't have both valves open at the same time?
It is curious though, a 8-12 degree duration split seems to be pretty common among a lot of the 'off the shelf' cams to suit stock cathedral port heads nowadays.
Something was not right with the cam, motor, or tune; that 212/220 cam with a tighter LSA should have been stronger than the 212/228 in every way, and especially up top with the bigger exhaust duration.
Fyi.....those old ls1/ls6 intakes only had a 76mm throat. Opening that up really helped the motor. With a little epoxy you can get them to 80+mm. Then they really start to work since you can use a bigger tb then.
Another great informative video.
I have that 212/218 in a junkyard 5.3 with ls6 springs. It's a Very impressive performing little cam.
Thanks Richard.
It should perform well!
It's good enough to run low 12s na in a 88 fox notch
That's some great testing material right there, good stuff Richard. Now to get me a 6-speed Ute and try some of this out.
Overscavanging probably..Keith Dorton found that over opening the exhaust duration when you don't have an air restricted engine causes a torque loss. On the 289 he made for the the late Currie Industries Carrera Panamerica 66 Mustang fastback with 500 CFM 2bbl... overscavanging is good.
having tested hundreds of cams with more duration-what happened here isn't the norm
The knowledge that you share with us is awesome! Thank you..
Right on
Thank you thank you for the video, I needed to see this
Love this stuff ! Thankyou Richard for providing such awesome content !!! Happy Newyears buddy --“
yes Richard, do an LS1 retest
That's me. Yay carbs win again! Thanks for the video.
We learn....that The LS teaches us almost as much as we need to know about ANY engine....
How so
Excluding ignition system type
@@km6832. Because all engines work the same way. You need: compression, cam, and head flow to make power.
Any naturally aspirated build meant for racing I always go carb. But boosted combos, always efi! Street combos I prefer efi on both but got some good carb combos on the street do work very well and be reliable. My 632 in my 70 monte has a pro systems 1250 Dom on it that I've never touched in 10 years and it still does what it supposed to for daily use.
My thoughts nearly to the tee. N/a race only use a carb, boost anything use efi, and if it sees more than 10 miles of street driving a weekend use efi. Better engine life and fuel economy. I have a 24x terminator x running my small block and I think you’d be. Crazy not to run efi if you are doing street driving.
@@trevermonk8575 agree completely! The dominator I drive on street is nice but still know efi would be far more efficient. I keep it carb cause simplicity, response and the wow factor....nothing to me looks better sitting on top a big block than a huge toilet bowl carb haha.
@@Monte1970SS lol there is always that lmao
Carbs are cool but a good injection set for sure with boost I like too um witch is better all out well we already know what's up
Just a heads up, the left side of the graph was cut off from the video. Great content.
A throttle body is a gate valve with less than 100,% efficiency. 12 degree chamfers verses 7 degree hurts throttle progression. But on a carb engine, it's all about square inches of Venturi verses cubic inches of engine. The biggest carb on the best intake, with the right balance or peak power and mid range torque. You add to the info on what an engine responds to...generally. The exceptions...they are either for you personally...or for some others to help you solve. If you didn't ask, you wouldn't get an answer...
The FI vs carb test introduced another variable, though: the added plenum volume of the elbow. Do you think that was significant or insignificant?
Also, the common trope about SP vs. DP manifolds is that the SP produces "less signal" at the carb which helps kill bottom end power, but from your test obviously adding FI doesn't fix that. I believe you've performed similar tests on carb vs EFI on a DP and came up with similar results?
there is less signal to the carb at low speed with the SP because it makes less power (not the other way around)
@@richardholdener1727 nobody seems to approach it like that. I'm an FI guy so don't quite speak the carby language...
Ls1 💪🏻
And this is why i'm building a setup with 2 stages of injection (full standalone, not some piggy back shit).
1 stock-ish injector per port and 1 extra injector at the top of the runner, best of both worlds. we'll see how it does when It gets on the dyno :)
Trying to max out e10 94octane capabilities on 11:1 CR turbo engine, using every tool in my box, cooling charge air, massive intercooler for best power at low boost, huge turbo to reduce backpressure to the max, retarding Intake cam with VTC to bleed off compression, all of that will be tested, can't wait!
Just gotta find time to actually work on it.
How about an update “modern” LS1 test? Bore a 5.3 block to 3.900 or so, aluminum L33 would be nice but not necessary for the test, flat top pistons with valve reliefs, and start with 706 and 799 heads, various cams and intakes, etc. Find the point where ported heads or aftermarket, like TFS 215s make sense, and take the testing out to 7500 or so. The NA results could be nice! Of course, just leaving it as a SBE and turbocharging would get results, too, but the NA 5.7 comparison would be interesting. Valve reliefs would make more cams fit…
westech has a 5.7l iron ls1
YES LS1 Stuff, try a cam with 600 lift and 22x X 22x
I have a Texas Speed 224R cam( 224 intake & exhaust , 600 lift on both , on112 lsa) in my 2000 C5 LS1 with headers , Dorman ripoff LS6 intake , stock throttle body , stock 853 heads with PAC beehive springs for the lift and mail order tune . It made 380 whp @ 6,000 , 370 foot pounds @ 4700 . Tuner/Dyno operator said the little heads were really holding it back , he said with 243's he would expect at least 430 , it has a nice choppy idle but is still very driveable with the six speed manual , still makes 320 foot pounds at 2500 rpm , I put some CNC ported 243's on it and can't wait to get it back on the dyno
@@danielcarroll5667 Didn't realize the 243's would make that much difference, I have stock 243's, cam motion Titan 2, 1 7/8 long tubes, 6spd, truck intake stock throttle body in a 2680# S10 5.7 LS1, Lack of Traction is my worse enemy. Has not been on the Dyno.
I'd really like to see a test between a 4150 throttle body with a hat and different 4150 elbows with a 102mm throttle body. Mainly cylinder to cylinder distribution
the intake design all but determines the distribution
@@richardholdener1727 how the air enters the same intake manifold has to have some effect especially with high air density from high boost and/or meth injection
...the cam with more exhaust will be appreciated in a nitrous oxide setup, do a test with a nitrous system and swap camshafts between one with the less and that one with more exhaust. Greetings!
the nitrous just adds to what the na power does
Do a video on hand ported intakes vs cnc flow benched intake and how much a power difference there is.
Its really just a question a preference. Another advantage to efi is it's usually a lot easier to package, to fit under the hood. If I was on a budget or chasing every last hp I'd carb it. If I wanted the ultamate in drivability and adjustability that fits under the hood, I'd go efi.
I suppose tb efi is the best of both worlds.
You can make all the power in the world with EFI, staged injection with the secondary injectors in a TB efi system does about as well with more adjustability.
@@Prestiged_peck
If you got the m money, very true.
@@177SCmaro I bet you could do a holley terminator setup for $2k
@@Prestiged_peck
More like 3-4k by the time you buy injectors, fuel pump, and run the lines. Fittings are stupid expensive.
I did a hp efi on my coyote and it was almost 3k with everything to make it work and I'm still running stock injectors temporarily. And another 1200 bucks for 1200cc e85 injectors.
That said, I still think it's worth it. It's amazing all the stuff the hp and dominator can run.
@@177SCmaro true*
13 seconds ago and I guess I'll be the 1st comment 🤙🏿
Oh boy.. That's a big can of worms you just popped open.. Carb vs Efi.. Old guys yelling ya my carb kicked butt.. Kids say whats that..lol
🤟👍
Carb is undefeated
The best is someone who can tune both efi and carbs
@@shadowopsairman1583 carb still wins🤣🤣🤣
Any one like the TSP 228R cam
how bout H20 port injection? just windscreen wiper motor for my supercharged efi engine made decent low end numbers.
I TESTED WASHER FLUID 92 KINDS) VS BOOST JUICE ON THE SUPERCHARGED 3800-VIDEO IS UP
@Richard Holdener, I'm sure you've done a "low-compression" 350 Chevy build at some point. I mean not changing the bottom end and simply adding bolt-ons to it to optimize it. Can you post one of those videos or point me toward one? Thanks!
CHECK THE L82 SBC VIDEO
@@richardholdener1727 10-4. Thanks!
LS1? LS FUN! :)
Love your videos watch all the time, I was wondering what your thoughts are on a cold air intake vs a open air element for a carb setup, I keep getting mixed messages some say the underhood temps especially with headers makes the cold air intake a must for daily driving, and some people are saying the cold air intake restricts airflow so much that it's not worth it ?
cold air is better
Cold air, tube it to the fender or in front of the radiator, or other similar cold air location
I asked him that question about a year ago and he said if you can put a cold air intake on it then do it. Anything you can do to resist pre-detonation is huge. I wanted an open air element just for looks but I have iron heads which won't take timing like aluminum heads. I decided to spend money on reducing underhood temps with ceramic coatings and ducts to reduce underhood temps.
I guess I shouldn't have taken so long to type that out haha.
@@richardholdener1727 thanks so much for the reply! If you say cold air then it is the truth
@@c0c0asauce my underhood temps are ridiculous, when the car is idling and I wash the hood the water just steams off, after seeing that I wrapped the headers even though everyone keeps saying it will rot them, which made a huge improvement, idk what else I can do to get those temps down
Is the carb cooling gains similar to Port efi with a meth mister @ the TB?
It's the type of throttle body you used on the single plane. The elbow always loses a ton of horsepower over the 4150.
NO-I HAVE TESTED ELBOWS AND 105MM THROTTLE BODY VS 4150-THE PROBLEM IS THE LACK OF FUEL COOLING FROM EFI
@@richardholdener1727 so a 4150 accufab will make the same power as an elbow with a blade style throttle body, given that everything else is the same? If that's the case I'll switch to the elbow right now.
HEY RICHARD
Do you think a Water Meth Carb spacer kit would make up or improve the charge cooling on the fuel injection single plain combo?
I don't think so
@Richard Holdener darn.. thanks for everything you do eliminating the guess work for us regular folk
Looking at doing a carbureted 6.0 with the all
Mighty sloppy stage 2. What would you recommend for carb size? And are they difficult to dial in with air fuel?
Thanks for all the great videos!!
750
Comment!
I wonder if the EFI elbow hurt airflow as well as the charge-cooling aspect.
no
You should do more hemi stuff, btw I would like to know if I can use hemi eagle heads on my pre-eagle engine
I believe you can, but it will raise compression due to the different chamber sizes on head. People use a thicker cometic gasket to stay 91 pump gas out of the eagle heads
@@200shotramhemi4 Thanks bud
Yes you can, are you on any of the Hemi groups on FB. Find the group called “Eagle Hemi Swap, we can help you with any questions you have.
@@bri-manhunter2654 Thanks, I was looking to swap the heads, put some long tube headers and a new cam
@@angel_m0950. Of course
It's almost 2022. We have electric cars. We still have people putting carbs on?.?
Sure do! Because they WORK. One bad wire can leave you walking in a modern vehicle ... and there's thousands of them. Carburetors just don't break, unless they sit with ethanol-mixed gasoline in them. Technology is great, but simple is BETTER.
I have a carb on my car... Its great!
Peak car was like 2008. You can't change my mind.
@@ZboeC5 IMO it was 1995 - from OBD-II on, it was all downhill. But thinking about the entire vehicle, that puts me at 1972, when cars were tough. Metal, not plastic, and a lot of it!
I would love to see some videos on ford’s relatively new 7.3 Godzilla.
I'd love to see an 8-71 5.7 setup with dual carbs up top.
I DID A 6-71 ON AN LS ALREADY-VID IS UP
👍💪
What jets did you run in that 850... I got a 750dp used with 78 in front and 73 in back... and it seem to be too much carb... I just blocked it off at 72... and going to try it Friday.. hopefully it work
MORE JET IN FRONT? DOES THE CARB HAVE POWER VALVES?
My fault it was 78 in back and 73 in front
@Richard Holdener my fault it was 78 in back not the front..
sounds silly but what if you had the injectors at the begining of the runners? maybe fab up an intake to try that. the charge cooling would be in effect
please see the honda TWM IR intake test video
750 cfm vs 850 cfm carb. any difference ?
not at 445 hp
Fuel injection or too much cam duration on the exhaust hurts Aspirations Index compared to a well sized carb. Or...Rpm times cubes, divided by power. The lower the resultant value...the better the specific power.
You cut the numbers off! No reference! SMH ... still a good vid ... thanks Richard :o)
Is there a live chat tonight?
YES
Would love to see a comparison between the lt1 5.7 and the ls1 5.7
no competition there
@@richardholdener1727 modify the lt1 till it makes the same or more hp than the last
The ls1
The only advantage for the 90s 5.7 version LT1 vs a LS1 5.7 is torque will be better under 3000rpm on the LT1 but as rpm goes up above 4000 rpm the LS1 carries more torque from 4000rpm up and torque will drop off much more rapidly with a LT1 above 4500rpm where the LS1 will still be making good torque above 5000rpm the thing about the LS1 is peak rpm torque is very close to peak rpm horsepower on the LT1 with both engines being stock peak horsepower for a LT1 is around 5200rpm peak torque for a LS1 is 4800-5000rmp peak torque for the LT1 is at 2400rpm above 4000rpm up the LS1 makes more torque and horsepower than a LT1 stock way more
@@gloriamaletta8667 the ls is just better in every way but I have the lt1 and just want more content
Could you please test the GT45 T4 vs borg Warner k31 T6?
I DON'T HAVE THOSE
@@richardholdener1727 so ship it to you, you test then ship to back to me?
What's up rich
U ever need anything from lunati cam Joey used to be my brother-in-law I’m still close to Fam so if I can help I will do anything to help
Maybe port work on the dual plane?
it would help-but design is still the design
I have a ls1 in my gto
I used to…,5.3 now
Personally I blame squirrels
retest.
sick of GM
I used to say the same thing, then I realized it's not worth fighting. Come to the dark side, it's way more fun over here.
LUCKY FOR YOU-THERE ARE LIKE 300-400 VIDEOS UP ON OTHER MOTORS
@@richardholdener1727 thats true