383 SHOOTOUT-GEN 1 SBC VS GEN 3 LS (CAN THE OG COMPETE?)
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2021
- 383 VS 383-CAN A MODIFIED 383 SBC MAKE 383 LS POWER? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WERE I FIRST COMPARED STOCK JUNKYARD SBC AND LS MOTORS, THEN MODIFIED 383 VERSIONS OF EACH. EVEN WITH AFTER MAREKT HEADS, WILD CAM TMING AND A HIGH-RISE INTAKE, CAN THE ORIGINAL SMALL BLOCK STROKER COMPETE WITH A STROKER LS? IT'S STOCK VS STOCK AND STROKER VS STROKER UP IN HERE!
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I think for most it comes down to cost and ease of installation. I bought a skip white internal balance 383 kit. machine shop double checked specs and was spot on. dug in my junk pile came out with a block. Mike Jones custom grind roller. Profiler 195 heads, Vic jr and quick fuel 750 carb… dropped into 85 c10…no fears, no tears and no hassles in just a few hours…535 hp at 6300 rpm all for less than $6000… hard to beat that with a stick.
When I was 16 and building my first motor, my machinist said, "Always spend money on the best heads you can afford."
you got it sbc power is maid in the heads
Those old heads were the biggest choke point.
Agree, but you need a proper cam to take advantage of the head flow.
Yeah the cam but with good heads you can get equal power w less cam so
@@glennmanchester5335 and its much easier to swap cars then buy new heads and polish/port them. Heads first. Get them sussed out including locks/springs/retainers/springs, and then figure what profile cam you want to compliment what your heads can flow.
I will always have a soft place in my heart for the original SBC.
I'm a fan of the LS stuff but I also have sbc 350 and 400. There both cheap and easy to work on and can make good power.
Dollar for dollar it's still hard to beat it for power produced on a build. Junkyard engines don't count, if building from scratch the sbc is still king of cheap reliable power. Most lose sight of that. When the junk supplies dry up the ls won't be so cheap to get and build.
@@b.c4066 I agree and while the LS prices are climbing the sbc prices are dropping and availability going up. Quick search on marketplace I can find 20sbc for cheap within 40miles.
@@BDauto86 agreed on all points. I picked up an Olds 455 with an engle cam and headers and 442 cast iron intake from a kid who wanted an LS--paid $150 for it dissassembled. the LS shadow is spreading to other engines :) I also picked up a Victor intake for the Gen One at a tag sale for $10--no way i'm finding a used LS carb intake anywhere for less than three digits.
Dang right!
SBC fan for sure. But, I'll LS swap the world if I could... keeping a few SBC just for fun. What is lost in the comments is why the LS is far, far superior to the SBC... Giant cam journals. 6 bolt mains. Heads. The LS may be the last time a giant manufacture designed and built a nearly perfect and ridiculously reliable engine.
What I love about modern V8's is they basically sold souped up performance engines with tiny cams in them instead of the choked down V8's of the past.
@@andrewlanger2168 pretty much !
You ls swapp my 86 monte
@@swa99surffin sell it if your too lazy
@@hawkdsl ha im not i was being sarcastic an i dont know how to install a engine
Ls deck height is 3/8 of an inch taller than sbc. This enables shallower valve angles and a better flow towards the valves. This is probably the single most important difference in power potential
I used to run a 383 SBC in super gas, we used a different combination.
A 400ci block and a 350 crank using the large brodix heads, single 850 carb, more radical lunati cam. We made 675 hp on the dyno.
I think the difference you’re seeing is in the intake/cam
you're pretty close. He also forgot to mention the cam shaft lift for sbc was .585 while the LS was over .600. That makes a huge difference. Give the SBC a .600+ camshaft and watch how close the numbers are.
i have a large journal 350 and a 400 but one problem the 400 is in a 79 short box 4x4 100% factory truck full option with only 35,000 miles on it in mint condition but then again i have a few 450 hp 454 sitting with low miles
I'm interested in your combo can you give me a few more details. I run a 385 stroker on my airboat but was thinking of building a 418 stroker
@@kregbelcastro2749 u really think i would part out a low mile 79 4x4 that is in mint condition u can buy the whole thing for about 35,000 then i will sell it just because i got it free i will not let it go cheap but u can get 450 hp 454 with 4 inch stroke out of motor homes and they come with a 02xx trans good to 800 hp i got 4 setups sitting right now
@@jeffrey4547 sorry the message I sent was for Chris H I wanted to know more about his 383 that made 675hp Jeffery I already have a 514hp 383 so i don't need your truck
I'll always be an old school SBC guy. They're legendary. But the LS heads flow so good and you can run a huge cam and still be driveabile... The LS is better but not dramatically considering the 50+ years difference in them. I love both and always will.
It’s a few things. Valve angle is huge but there is more to be said about the difference in stroke and the way it fills the cylinder as well as rod length to stroke ratios, camshaft selection and the entire combination in general. There are far more differences in these engines than similarities. Love watching your videos! Thanks
Agree, the majority of the power difference is in valve angle and cam.
Are you guys aware World Products offers a traditional SBC block, but with an LS, 4 head bolt deck, which allows the SBC block to run LS heads.
Hey Richard, the guys at west tec screwed together two 383’s a while back. They made them as close to each other as possible. One was an SBC, the other was a 383 Mopar. For those who don’t know, the SBC is a motor put together with parts from two engines. A 350 block gets a 400 crank. You get a 4” bore with a 3.75” stroke. The Mopar is a factory built motor, 4.25” bore with a short stroke of 3.38”. Like I said, both motors had the same static compression, cam, and intake design. The biggest difference in the two mills was the rod length to stroke ratio. A piss poor 1.52-1 for the SBC, 1.88-1 for the Mopar. Then they ran on their Dino, back to back only to get nearly identical torque and HP. I though going ti to this one, as did Friebuger and the Steve’s that the SBC would have it all over the Mopar in the torque department, while the Mopar would make more hp because of its ability to rev. Now, I’ll be watching this one very closely to see what happens. So why don’t you take the winner and put it up against Thierry motors to see which one is the best 383! I’d love to see that. P.S., I’m still waiting to see a well built AMC dyno’d somewhere. Let me know if you decide to do that one and I’ll point you in the right direction. I built engine for 20 yrs, then moved on into electronic Engineer for Intel, and I sure miss my engine building days!
I would run a different cam in the SBC.
106 LSA, 102 ICL, 1.6/1.5 rockers intake/exhaust, 280/280 duration at .006" lift, 235 ish at .050", 68 degrees of overlap.
This will put you right on top of the LS.
Also, I would port that intake to bring it up to par.
Since there is no equivalent EFI intake manifold for the SBC, why not run the test with a single plane intake manifold and the same carburetor on the LS? That’s as close to apples to apples as it can get.
I think he's trying to run the best available intake in both cases, rather than limiting one to the ability of the other.
If you wanted apples to apples, you'd limit the SBC to running the same valve sizes the LS has. That would be BS too.
I think valve angle is likely a lot of it.
I think the valve angle was a big part, could have even done the 18 degree head to make it a little closer but, I think EFI could have also played a part in that those numbers also.
@@dougj.8288 when Richard runs apples to apples carb vs EFI, carb almost always makes a bit more power.
I think it's more the intake than the EFI, but you can't run that style intake with a carb.
@@dougj.8288 yes, despite the equal flow the 23degree head is just kinda wonky. The valves arent centered in the bore and the pushrod pinch changes the cross section not to mention the gen1s 5th head bolt between the ports. You can make power despite these things but if the port dances around bolts and pushrods what cross section changes have to happen to make it happen and how does that change the acoustics of the port, static flow is one thing but an intake is a dynamic system with sound waves and intermittent flow.
I know the carb usually makes more peak power but it wouldn’t have been an issue to slap Holley EFI on that intake or swap the intake on the LS and run the same carb on both.
I have to think that the difference in valve angle will allow the LS to have more tumble, a straighter flow path, and more mixture motion. That being said, the intake on the LS is superior. You could try a carb and single plane intake on the LS to see just how much of a difference that intake design is worth.
Yes I would like to see a carb and single plane intake on the LS
Excellent comment.
I don't think this question will ever be answered. How about 427 big block vs 427 LS vs 427 small block.
Absolutely! What I mention above needs to be addressed as well. Same ring pack widths, piston, and rod weights at least as close as possible with like materials. No titanium rods and as similar designed heads as possible. 1 CNC'd, ALL CNC'd. The 427LS and the 427 SBC gen 1 would be the most interesting based on same bore and stroke if internals are similar and the style of induction is at least similar, IMHO.
Years ago I think it was car craft did 408 sm blk vs 408 BB. LS where not around yet . The bb stomped the small block and they where actually very similar builds .
I think I remember the CarCraft article the BBC made so much lo-end torque that the SBC PUT UP THE WHITE FLAG TO SURRENDER LOL!!!!
@Broke Donkey Garage, Hot rod magazine also ran that same test with a 408 big block vs 408 small block back in 98. the LS had only been out about 2 years. it was called Rodent Rumble. www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-9808-chevrolet-engine-block-challenge/
they even used "the same" cam. it was a Comp Extreme Energy 284, the lobe profiles and LSA are identical on both the big block version and the small block version of the XE284. They tested them at the dyno and the drag strip in the same second gen Camaro. The Big Block won both hands down. I am pretty sure the BBC would beat the LS as well in the same if the test was conducted today with the LS included. to quote Steve Brule "Nothing Beats and LS... Except a Big Block Chevy"
@@shadvan9494 that was the one I meant . Thanks for the reply .
It's nice to see that a well built small block with the same cubic inches can compete with LS style engine. I would say that the combination of sequential EFI and coil on plug ignition are why the numbers on these builds weren't more similar. Give the small block those upgrades and watch it do work.
Carb will make more power then fuel injection and they are getting plenty of spark with distributor. The ls flows more air is all.
@@Thumper68 naw I think he got a point fuel injection brings instant power that carb gonna dump gas and the motor gone catch up
@@bizzybeast6522 it wasn’t really a suggestion I know I’m correct the ls heads flow a lot more air that’s why it makes more power
@Thumper I definitely think it's the fuel injection and coil packs! But also believe the heads on the ls are better
@@johnkrucar2119 it's the cams you can't compare power with different lift on the cams obviously the cam with more lift will make more power.
There's 50 years in engine design between the 2 engines. Personally I think the SBC is the most amazing engine ever produced. Easy and cheap to work on. Tons of aftermarket parts available and can take a beating and come back for more, plus they came in some of the best cars and trucks ever produced.
The LS also can take a beating. But it's arguably cheaper actually.
As there's many more of them on circulation.
Yeah, but who wants to deal with that damn computer and all those wires
@@clydebethatway7485 You can easily put a carb on an LS
Put a carb on the LS and find out if it is the intake/fuel injection.
Yep. Or put a good EFI system on the SBC and see how it does.
Fuel injection is great for driveability. Doesnt necessarily produce more powerthan a carb.
@@pyrorye-80 Direct injection does.
Your "carb looking" EFI's, no, they don't. You're right.
@@pyrorye-80 you can tune better and that can be worth 30 hp difference
I would like to see the numbers with a carb on the ls , I think they would be higher
Just the configuration of the oil pump and not having a distributor will give the LS an advantage. Cathedral ports on LS is another plus and LS block is skirted with 6 bolt mains and all are roller cams. Tolerances can be held better on the LS. All this makes more hp, but I still enjoy a healthy SBC that has been around since 1955, never gets old !
1st I would like to say thanks for what you do! I love all the videos. Always informational, best from Wyoming.
I think if you ran a hydraulic roller cam with identical lift, duration and Lsa, you’d have a more fair playing field. LS might still be ahead but the gap would close dramatically. Also that very minuscule amount of compression makes a difference. The closer you make all the specs on each engine, the close the power numbers will get. If they both had identical specs, it would be extremely close. Possibly not enough to even notice when driving. Nice video!
What strikes me is how the close the ancient SBC comes to matching the LS. For my SBC 1988 Corvette, I'll modify the SBC rather than do an LS swap. I'll give up a theoretical 10% power difference to avoid all the hassles of a swap. In fact, before I'd do a swap, I'd go to forced-induction on the SBC. No way I'll ever need more power than I can get from that.
Ls has more advantages than just power. The block design is way stronger. Also the seal and gasket designs are more reliable so you don't have oil leaks.
Ported heads on the SBC would have closed the gap even more.
@@moabman6803 the ls isnt everyones taste of engine
@@moabman6803 🧢 sbc has a stronger block
@@Texasmule LS has 6 bolt mains. Sbc block is not stronger.
I admire how you pump out facts and we all go crazy figuring how disagree with objective truth. Please tell us why our opinions should keep changing when the truth shows they must
You hit the nail on the head Richard! It is all about the valve angle. Why do you think professional racers run 15 deg and smaller valve angle heads? They flow better in the upper rpm range. This is why a Ford 302 can compete with a 350 Chevy, you have a 20 deg valve angle vs a 23. Put a set of 15 degree heads on that 350, and watch what happens to the power!
Uhhhh, no lol
Great video Richard! I really enjoyed this one.
👍 SBC 383 ~ gear jamm'in ground pounding street motor on the cheap ! 😊 Been around for ever, reliable ~ with a good set of heads plenty of power for most people.
I like watching what you guys do but when I see bone headed stuff I have to point it out You guys should've ran a carb on the LS or vise versa run the fuel injection on the sbc 383 then we would see better results and try to use indentical brands heads,cam,and intake oh and compression as well on both engines then we can see the real competition like they both had different heads cam and induction 🤷sorry. Hey but I still love watching
First thing that popped in my head before I clicked the video was the big difference in valve angles from Gen 1 SBC to the LS. The LS has always had an advantage there, and I've found they never really need much camshaft to make good power. I attribute that to a pretty good cylinder head with advantageous valve angles. The Trick Flow takes that further with 13.5 degrees vs a stock LS 15 degree.
Maybe compare a gen1 SBC with a set of 18 degree heads and see if the difference is closer? Starts to get pretty expensive though.
Afr sells good heads for sbc I have one on my 355. And it’s awesome. Factory comes Cnc ported. With a mild cam you’ll definitely wake up that sbc.
My thoughts also on the advantages of the flat 13.5°. The whole head was a clean sheet and every little detail counts. Ol reliable sbc heads designed back in early 50's.
OH MAN I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A 383 SBC WITH TRICK FLOW 18 DEGREE HEADS , 1,6 ROCKERS , A 2 INCH CARB SPACER , SHE BE A 100 HORSEPOWER MORE THAN THAT LS !
Great idea for a comparison, and excellent choice of platforms
Great video! Lots of variables to consider here. I'd say it comes to heads/cam and small amounts with EFI. Both are great motors but like technology everything advances with time
Hi, the only equivalent SBC intake to a Fast LS is a street tunnel ram. That's the cost of running a SBC. Steve
I'd like to see cost per engine to replicate.
That would be a big difference
That is a good question, but I suspect it's getting close to even.
Sbc is a bigger bang for the buck, 383 is $800 for sbc compare to 2k ls stroker.
@@frankdatank7751 Yep. I found it to be $2400 for the LS 383 rotating assembly. Must be the reason everyone slaps a turbo on them.
The ls would likely be cheaper.
Richard, I’ve always enjoyed watching your videos. I think you are a very knowledgeable person when it comes to every day performance in every day engines. However, I cannot call this a level field of play. To me, to make it more fair, the heads should be from the same manufacture and of the same “application” i reckon you could say. Same thing with the intake manifold and induction. If it would be carb or efi. Again, thank you for all the info you’ve given over the years. No day is a wasted day if you’ve learned something new.
I believe it's a combination of many little improvements. Fuel injection for a more even fuel charge in all cylinders, valve angles, thinner piston ring pack, reverse flow cooling, tighter bearing tolerances, shaft vs pedestal mount rockers, firing order.
Valve angle and port energy explains cam requirements. The intake differences on you test pieces would explain the rest.
Exactly what I was thinking too! Put a single plain and carb on the LS or put say a Holley sniper Efi on them both and I think the gap might be closer between them.
I've heard of port velocity and flow. What are you referring to as far as port energy?
@@frankrizzo2724 as I understand it; it has to do with flow and velocity and the length of the port. If you have a smaller cross section area at a certain length that flows equally to a larger cross section port of the same area you see the velocity higher. What is difficult to measure is how the pulsing or pressure waves affect things. David Vizard has a way of explaining it. Check out power tech 10 videos. I am pretty sure he would do a better job of explaining it than I can.
@@jamesandannschmitt6835 I've read alot of visard's stuff. Really like the way he always uses a tight LSA on his cams. I'll have to check that out. Thanks.
@@stewarth8390 a carb on a LS engine makes more power then EFI
The 13 degree head does a great job to unshroud the valves for better flow over a wider flow range. And aren't the catherdral port heights higher on ls heads for more direct flow to the valve? The LS heads also have a much better combustion chamber design, better exhaust flow, and better spark plug placement. P.S You have built an LS 383 with 600fhp+, 640+ seems feasible on E-85 and 13:1 and still run a hydraulic lifter. And its hard to beat the LS style intakes like FAST so without more cam and compression, running hi rise intakes probably was not going to buy you much. I think you did a great job making it a fair comparison.
My thoughts. The 4" stroke on the ls is what beats the conventional 383 on the low end for torque. Then on the upper end the 13 degree heads take over and out performed the 23 degree headed SBC. The Ls is just doing it more efficiently. Now change the Old SBC to 18 degree heads and they may even out or the old SBC may take over on the top end.
Well you're wrong about the 4" stroke for low end torque. Long stroke for torque is a myth people just can't get over; too lazy to think it through or something...
@@causeimbatmaaan that's correct, stroke is only one part of the equation but the things that affect torque much more are cam timing cylinder heads and compression
Great content Richard.
I would say it is the valve angle.
Thank again,Em.
I'm going with the intake. I've watched Engine Masters and they have had various intake shoot outs and you would be amazed at just changing a manifold would do. I'd recommend getting a Brodix matched intake. Watch the big block intake shoot out I think its season 5. Also the cam profiles I think might play a role in it to.
I'd like to see a 383 LT1/LT4 battling the LS. With the stock manifold, albeit ported, and with the Edelbrock "LT4" manifold. Running on Holley EFI. AFR has some big boy LT1/LT4 heads ;-)
Heads. Period. 18 degree SBC heads would have made the test more comparable.
Yep, it's the heads. Those LS heads are great performers.
yeah 18 degree brodix heads would have probably been over 550+
even an AFR 195 comp probably cost the same as those trick flow cathedral ports and those world have probably made 550.
also look at this combo. smaller ports and smaller hydro roller cam but its an AFR with an air gap intake made 557HP
ruclips.net/video/gUYzannB8jM/видео.html
@@KingJT80 better yet, 15 degree profiler air strike heads! And I guarantee you that the gen 1 out performs the Ls! Not that I'm knocking an Ls by no means, it's a proven excellent platform for sure! But for ease of install and operation, you simply cannot beat the gen 1 sbc!
@@docsmallblock6584 yeah no it's great stock as proven by this video made at least 40+ hpmover the vortex 350 vs a 5.3 truck engine with a truck intake
I just tell people if you're not gonna turbo it just use a 383 if you already have the header etc
Another good comparison of the Richard. I have quite a few conversations with people that still think that modded the SBC still holds its own against a modded LS. Maybe an 18 or 15 degree SBC but that's even more money and dedicated parts.
My thoughts on why LS did better with much less cam duration: 1. Low lift numbers on LS head were likely a bit better. 2. Bigger base circle on LS cam allows for much more aggressive ramp rates. IE you can get as much air flow with less duration because the valves are at a higher lift for any given spot on the cam profile.
also IIRC an LS has 1.7 rockers from the factory.......most of the difference probobly comes down to valve angle and the port designs inherent to each design.
a few things are contributing: the head flow is advertised (in the video) as a similar single value, but the valve angle of the LS heads are allowing more area under the curve, along with not insignificant lift increase. the long runners of the truck manifold are also providing a torque increase throughout the curve. There are probably some frictional losses in the ring pack as well on the older motor. the SBC 383 cam is probably not as well matched and the valvetrain is likely heavier overall, especially with the bigger cam timing events.
The characteristic torque curve is due to “long runner” FAST intake vs a single plane carb intake. The horsepower increase with 14° less intake lobe (and the actual level of the torque curve) is probably due to flow dynamics not shown in the steady state number from a flow bench. Someone mentioned port energy, something Vizard quantifies in his head analysis. The different valve angle just works better on the LS.
😱
rod angle? ring thickness ,tension? / larger cam core allowing more desirable ramping? / rotating mass? Then add the valve angle, injection, etc... MAYBE THE LS HAD A CHROME DIP STICK...
Would’ve been interesting to see an RPM air gap on the SBC, especially down low
It would have gains down low of course
I am about to build a 383 and the intake I’ve chosen is an air gap intake with a Holley Sniper everything from in tank fuel pump to the ignition system. 1.6:1 roller rockers and I am probably going to ditch the hyd cam and go with a roller. Can’t wait…
Didn't mention cranks and rotating assembly, I once built a super light crankshaft 383 from lunati , compared to an almost identical motor with a eagle kit in it, was apples to oranges, revved higher and had lots of torque, I'm suspecting the ls has a much lighter rotating assembly.
Try building a 3.75" stroke version in a 6.0 block and see how it would compare. I'm thinking same bore and stroke between the 2 engines.
A 383 is basically a 6.0 do at 383 SBC vs a camed 6.0 lq9
6.0 is 366 far from 383
@@horsefly1020 377 would be a much better comparison for valve clearance and flow.
I'll go with valve angle, the tenth in compression and more cam lift with the LS...
All 3 of those things cumulatively make the difference.
I'll also argue that the SBC camshaft didn't have the development correct for the application and the longer stroke of the LS made it more efficient pumping the intake and exhaust cycles with its cam events.
I still subscribe to connecting rod ratio effecting piston dwell, position and relationships to cam events.
But the chief difference is the cam selection and valve angle in the head.
LS HAS A LITTLE BIGGER CAM YES, BUT IM PRETTY SURE ITS ALSO GOT ATLEAST 1.6 ROCKERS TOO , THAT MAKES THE LS LIFT QUITE A BIT BIGGER ! SBC TORQUE IS LOW BECAUSE INTAKE RUNNERS ARE TOO BIG ! EVEN AFR 195'S WOULD MAKE ATLEAST THE SAME POWER AND 50 MORE TORQUE
From what I saw on your intake test video, it looks like intake definitely plays a major role.
I think most of the difference comes from the intake manifolds. That much longer runner on that fast is far superior to the single plane of the SBC and would contribute to across the board power gains below 6000rpm.
Great job as always buddy. I would do the head degress plays the biggest roll in difference of power👍
The small block with a good single plane would probably put up a little better fight imo, my 383 stroker has 11.0 compression, AFR 210 head, strip dominator intake, 243/249 solid roller, and according to air flow and fuel consumption, it makes about 50 hp more than my 370 11.0 compression ls with a 231/243 cam and fast 92, ported 706s
706 heads are the reason...
Would it be the Fuel Injection delivery system? The LS is more precise = Better fuel atomization & a more complete combustion cycle. Electronically metered versus just dumping ever increasing amounts of RAW fuel in. Perhaps the stroke would also play a factor, longer stroke more charge, less area = more power. per sq inch/millimeter.
Still, none the less, those are very impressive numbers for either stout motor combination.
Having done 327 chevy motors and 5.3 LS.... I think the computer controlled or managed fuel and ignition systems give the LS a big advantage. Along with the head angle and better stock rockers. also the 6 bolt mains are a good thing and the $400 or so junk yard price. I like a lumpy idle but.... I like the LS idling at 500 rpm all day. I like the way a stock LS will shift at near 6 grand The computer tho is expensive and not simple to install and some of the gauges have to be changed and fuel system etc. In my Little C10 truck tho I do get well over 20 mpg.... so toss up for cost but I do know the LS will run 250k miles
How did you get 20+ mpg with your truck ? My '03 5.3 half ton gets 13....15 is the most I've ever seen from it... And of course that's with an overdrive transmission. I did get 20+ from my 68 327 with no over drive in a 69 elcamino and a 69 Chevelle.
@@gearyheidinewaccount3237 Well for one the truck weighs 3200 lbs. I had an el camino also with a 454 and 6 speed and if I was really careful I could get close to 20 on the freeway. Hell... I don't know what is wrong or was wrong with you pickup but my 05 Tahoe NEVER got less than 16 and I got 21 on a trip both there and back 700 miles and it weighs 4800 lbs. My C10 is running right at 1800 rpm at just under 70 mph My sons 22 half ton weighs 600 lbs more than my C10
I love these videos. 😊
My theory is because of the inconsistency in intake and exhaust spacing on SBC combined with older stying manifolds and fueling. Idk like to see this comparison with more comparable cams and then the Edelbrock Pro Flo4 sequential port injection with the top mounted throttle and then with the tunnel ram style too. Also the bore and stroke differences make a difference too, even though they are the same cubes, having different strokes means piston speeds greatly differ and effect top end HP.
you like suggestions;
how about building a 600 HP Chevy 376 stroker (3.750 stroke 4" bore) and a 2nd Chevy 377 short stroke (3.480 stroke 4.155 bore).
use the same cam, same heads, same intake/carb/headers in both engines. and dyno both
At what point does the question turn into “Which setup has the best volumetric efficiency?”
I’m also going to have to agree with the others who have said valve angle and intake manifolds.
Agree!
Yeah, somewhere back in my deep prehistoric memory, volumetric efficiency comes to mind. Air flow, swept area, how fast the cylinders are filled and evacuated, stuff like that. I never dove too deep into this, but I remember it coming up.
I think even in an apples to apples comparison, the LS has better VE. I love the old SBC, but the LS beats it every time
I was a die hard old school sbc/bbc engine guy but I’ve awakened and now realize that they’re just nostalgic now lol
The ls motor took all the best possible aspects of Ford, mopar,gm and the aftermarket and produced the ultimate combination in my book. It doesn't matter if you are a die hard mopar guy like myself I find the ls to be best pushrod v8 on the planet for the bang for your buck power. Let's put to rest the gen 1 sbc along side the steam engine and the vw bug.
Love your content, and this is a better comparison than any others I've seen But it seems the old school stuff is always mismatched. 225cc intake head on a small 383. They may flow 300 but not until .600+ lift (cam is under that). Put a set of afr 210 race/profilers, something that flows 300 at ur cam lift and you'll be closer. (Proven combos). 4.0 bore based LS would be a fairer match with similar cam profiles, along with both EFI based CNP.
Thats what I was hoping for, but, I guess I will have to take what I can get :/
I think line of sight is much better on the LS. Any time you improve the approach angle to the back of the valve, it means more power carried longer and higher in the rpm range. All you have to do to see what im talking about is look down the injector bodies with wide open throttle, on a modern Japanese motorcycle engine. Radical cams dont seem to interrupt low speed power assuming a proper tune. The closer we get to these designs in automotive engines the more power we will produce.
I think the valve angle will account for the need of greater cam timing. As for the horse power difference, I believe that is attributed to the slightly longer stroke of the LS allowing for greater cylinder volume / air velocity that will use the cylinder head to a greater extent.
I say valve angle and stroke even though the LS was equipped with a smaller bore with its 4” stroke it was able to take advantage of the head flow numbers and fill the cylinder more efficiently my guess is if RPM continued to increase the HP gap would’ve gotten smaller between these 2 engines.
Ya agree. VE / scavenging are going to be way better on the LS. He didn't mention ignition timing, but I am guessing the LS needed a lot less total timing to hit those numbers too.
I agree..valve angle..and also the Fast long tube INTAKE MANUFOLD..
Time to build a 13 degree 383 sbc lol. I am sure you hit the nail on the head. Valve angle and intake design.
World has an old skool block that fits the LS top end...would love to see an all out N/A shootout between the three...same compression,same stroke and bore, same head degree angle, and 750cfm carb for the three combos and see who comes out on top 🤷🏾♂️
So many great reasons mentioned. Valve angle, efi, manifold profile, etc etc. I full heartedly agree with them. I just wanted to add one more idea. The intake manifold on the ls doesn't have hot coolant running through it if I am not mistaken. The composite manifold is also more of a heat barrier, not a heat conductor like aluminum. I am by no means saying this is where all the power is coming from, but I do believe it helps.
Not going to lie I’m kind of surprised how close the small block got to the LS. For sure though the LS had a lot better valve angle in my opinion and even though the heads flowed the same amount the small block Chevy did it with a smaller cam so I would think giving the small block Chevy a little more RPMs and more valve lift excluding the valve angle would probably put it near the LS
Great comparison! Keep it coming. No doubt the ls is designed better (gm engineers obviously learned something in 45 years 🤣) and the valve angle definitely has something to it. Remember the 18 degree sbc heads? However to omit that infinite ability to time vs a spark that hits every 45 degrees of rotation irregardless of the cyl need? In engine masters they killed close to 100 hp by getting the timing wrong and could only kill 30 hp by running pig rich. Timing is way important and not just the intensity of spark but when it also happens is critical IMHO. Many limitations to a distributor and different length plug wires moving parts wear over time. I would rod either one with a smile a ticket couldn't wipe off my face!
455 Buick Buick Buick Buick🗣😁💪🏾💪🏻💪🏾💪🏻💪🏾
A Buick Olds Pontiac 455 shootout would be sweet
@@jfrsgarage7195 took the words right out of my mouth.
*Insert meatloaf here"
Bump for BOP shootout!
Fun rundown!
Typically out of two engines with the same displacement where both have very good head flow and proper valve event timing I would expect the engine with the larger bore to edge out and make more power. This is why for example I like the 4” stroke 427 LS engines because they have a large bore and Breath very well when the right parts are used up top. I’ve never been able to really figure a definite reason why the Ls put powers a SBC though especially when the SBC in question benefits from a larger bore, and can use big valve heads. I know the valve angle itself comes into play with cylinder filling, but even on engines other than 23* small blocks and 15*/18* LS engines the LS typically makes more power than the SBC when similarly equipped so I really can’t pin it down entirely.
I’m sure the LS Stroker will produce more power above 5000 rpm with a comparable carburetor and intake manifold. To bad the test wasn’t done with a same spec camshaft on the small block Chevy 383 with the LS stroker camshaft specs . I’m convinced the small block Chevy 383 has a disadvantage with having to big of a cam and smaller stroke .
I'd say the LS has the advantage with the intake manifold design. The LS intake design is far superior (in this rpm range), and allows the LS engine to produce a much broader torque curve. I'd bet if you put a single-plane intake manifold on the LS, the power curves would be very similar.
Or a tunnel ram on the SBC which wouldn't give up tq and add Hp
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD!!!! SUGGESTION: TPI ON BOTH MOTORS. AND COST COMPARISON AS WELL.
My suspicion is that if you had a pair of 18 degree heads and an EFI setup on the SBC you would see a huge difference. Of course you would then have to have a pair of LS heads that are going to be comparable in valve size to try and eliminate that variable.
LS has more stroke, more stroke is more torque. Both flow well, so both rev above 6k. So with comparable red line the additional stroke and hence torque it will make more power. My .02.
Your rpm guage does not remind you about the size of the crank. Lol. There are things you are forgetting about. Long stroke vs short stroke.
The Sbc are definitely good motors. But in a forced induction application the ls will always trump it with better heads and a more secured crank do to the 6 bolt main design.
Theres still a lot of people running a small block chevy beating the ls platform
Great videos, LS is awesome but my self I like old school SBC and BBC
I’m no expert by any means, but I think there’s a few factors mainly at play here:
1) Slightly under square engines are more efficient bcuz the flame front can fill the combustion chamber quicker
2) A 10 degree difference in valve angle
3) Larger camshaft core size in the LS, meaning there may be less pressure on the lifters (side loading) and camshaft from the valve springs pressing up against the rocker arms. This may be negated by the fact that LS run 1.7 ratio rockers vs SBC 1.5 ratio
Awesome video!! More stroke on LS helped with the torque. The Best LS intake helped with the HP. But what’s really interesting to me is how well the SBC did. Peak HP it only lost by 10hp. Yes it lost all over the rpm band but not as bad as I originally thought it would. Torque lost by even more but I think stroke was a main factor for that. Great test and I’m more impressed with the SBC now. Pro Flow or the best intake for the SBC might even get it closer to the LS?! Thanks again for all your effort to the the HOTROD community!!🤘🤘🤘
LS HAS BETTER INTAKE, BIGGER CAM , 1.6 OR 1.7 ROCKERS , NOT 1.5's Like The SBC ! LS GONNA HAVE ALOT MORE CAM LIFT , WHEN YOU FIGURE IN ROCKER RATIO ! SBC WITH AFR HEADS , RPM INTAKE, 2 INCH CARB SPACER, AND 1.6 ROCKERS WOULDA EASILY HAD ANOTHER 40 HP AND 50 TQ !
I don't think the stroke mattered as much for torque as the single plane intake did. They kill torqe
It’s the computer controlled fuel and spark system. They make a kit that allows ls heads to bolt on a sbc. I’d try that out and see what happens
Used my 327 crank out of my 307 sbc and placed it in a 350 block. Put new vortec heads, changed springs, cam 500 lift 112 lobe, dual plain intake, 550 carb. 9:5/1 compression.
Produced 405 hp, 415 tq.
Very nice
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I have a SBC 383, vortec heads speedpro pistons scatt crankshaft and rods, mild cam. I didn't build it, but it was freshly built and neglected and I got it running hot with Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 EFI with truck style round air cleaner on top. It's waiting to go in a '98 Hombre 2WD truck with an nv3500! Good to know it's around 500hp over 450ft-lbs torque
I love small block chevys . I even have one in my c10. But in these days and times... there is no reason to run a SBC and a 3 speed transmission and no AC. Those days are over... fuel injection and overdrives with lots of AC is where its at
I think it's a combination of all that you said, combined with fuel injection. Especially in combination with the angle and runners/tb
Great job Interesting video
I think it’s the differences in architecture all added up; especially the heads. The taller ports on the LS act more like “raised ports”, coupled with the shallower valve angle likely increases velocity. Its valve train is objectively superior (larger cam journals and base circle, raised cam location for shorter pushrods, lighter rockers, etc make for better control, stability, and accuracy). Its rotating assembly likely has advantages like better rod/stroke ratios, less friction from shorter piston skirts, and the deep skirt block/6 bolt mains making for less “flex” and potential friction. Even things like the oil pump being driven off the crank instead of off the distributor (which is driven off the cam, and driven off the crank) likely means less internal parasitic losses.
In short, it’s not just 1 or 2 big things. It’s all the little improvements that give the LS an inherent advantage.
The basic nuts about the engines is the heads. The LS engines are easier to make HP with, because the heads are easier to make HP with. valve angle, combustion chamber design, and valve arrangement all favor the LS to promote flow and flame travel across the piston. You can get fantastic results from the most modern heads out there for the 1st gen now, but applying that to the LS is a lot easier, and a lot is naturally designed into them.
A good ported head like an AFR might have helped to close the gap. An AFR 195 has same flow below .500 lift and better flow above .500 vs the Dragon Slayer and would have kept better air velocity. I have AFR 180cc's on this engine in my pic and they outflow pretty much all as-cast 195's.
I believe the 383 small block chevy has to big of a camshaft. The LS has a longer stroke and a much better intake manifold , which in my opinion will produce more power and torque compared to increasing displacement by increasing bore size.
I believe the difference is in the SBC 23 degree heads vs the LS 13 degree heads.
The next best test is to put a good set of 12 degree heads with 1.72:1 roller rockers installed on the 383 SBC and dyno it. I believe it’s a flow EFFICIENCY advantage that the LS has.
Just my opinion…
Great job, on all these tests Richard. I'm learning much!
LS heads make great power. I still like the torque of the small block. If your building a rig on a budget the low end grunt of a vortec small block is hard to beat.
It’s strange just how much you can change the characteristics of a small block Chevy from high revving 327s to torque monster 383s. A Buick motor will always act like a Buick motor but a small block Chevy possesses many faces. It’s a real testament to the small block and how it’s still so valued after all these years.
A set of 13 degree sbc heads would really change the out come.
That and a raised cam tunnel block. With a 55mm cam core I agree it's not a fair comparison. Build both to comparable bore stroke cam design benefits and a good sheet metal mpfi for the sbc power difference would be drastically reduced.
@@b.c4066 but now you're spending more money to keep up with LS that came out of the junk yard. LS is just a better stock platform to build from.
@@gnarkiller the ls is a great platform the new lt looks to be a even better platform. With that being said the old gen 1&2 sbc are really good as well and can make good power
@@gnarkiller absolutely, but to compare them in their current states of tune is akin to comparing a 265 Windsor to a 408 dart block Windsor with high ports. Not subtle differences, huge difference in just about every aspect of each engine bro. That's all I was thinking when I posted my thoughts.
@@b.c4066 not disagreeing, just adding: the "ls" is a sbc with most of the improvements people have made over the decades built in. Without the small block there would never have been ls. Love how the arrogant engineers said they designed a brand new engine from scratch.
I think the best way to compare them for guys that are actually going to build one for the street (which I am close to completing one myself) would be to run the sbc with the best air gap style dual plane intake, notch the plenum divider, and use a Sniper/Stealth type injection unit. Keep all else the same. There can be innumerable debates about roller cam intricacies, and those are valid, but that rabbit hole has no end.
Intake on LS is better and maybe the ring package being thinner on LS. Between those two things, would make up that difference. And maybe the tiny higher lift cam and angle on the LS. But if you did that hybrid world products block that can take LS heads and intake. That would be a great comparison. They have an episode of it on hotrod tV. It’s pretty cool allows you to use a regular sbc architecture and engine mounts and crank, but allows LS piston and rods and heads to be bolted on. That’s the engine I’d build if I could. Best of both worlds.
I think the LS should have had a carb and single plane for this test and the sbc should have had coil on plug ignition and at least 1.6 rockers like everyone runs on them. The LS still has some advantages but that might have narrowed the gap some more.
It would be interesting to do a test with as close as possible valve angles, similar style/length intake manifolds, and same firing order. Either the 4,7 and 2,3 swap on the sbc, or making a sbc firing order cam for the LS. It’s most likely a combination of all the little technological improvements combined.
You would also need different position sensors
If you put a .585 lift cam in the ls to match the sbc the power out puts would be almost identical
So, the graphs look so close in pattern. The genII had slightly less compression, and less cam, and actually a cam you straight up call "less than optimal". Considering those facts, and the vastly different induction systems. Id say the test was a lot closer than most of us expected. Cool to see the genII run that similar.
Built a 383 SBC for a friend must have been close to 30 years ago with hand ported AFR heads on it, similar cam / induction, but was running AV gas, made a bit north of what you have there. Probably the first street car I ever rode in that pulled up the front wheel.