The section in which boss fights are ment as a final test to see if you have mastered what the level sets out to teach you is very individually depending on the game. Sometimes boss fights teaches you what you need to learn after they have been defeated rather than before.
Correction: the mantis lords use the same attacks switching phases but together at the same time and there just higher on the wall. Other then that good vid I feel most was obvious but I never thought of the difference between mantis lords and watcher knight like that. No wonder I liked mantis lords and sisters of battle more then watcher knights
A grate example is Mataton EX from undertale it’s so good because earlyer on it puts you up against Mataton a fight you literally can’t lose than the very next fight BOOM he’s gay!
The other game is Iconoclasts. It is a puzzle focused Metroidvania with a nice pixel aesthetic. As the Kingslayer said the other game is Enter the Gungeon and is a bullet hell rogue like. Here are the steam pages for both games of you are interested in playing them for yourself. store.steampowered.com/app/311690/Enter_the_Gungeon/ store.steampowered.com/app/393520/Iconoclasts/
In a bullet-hell game the latter fases are harder, but not always denser, the good boss fights aren't those who use 1 style but can innovate between fases, Touhou, Cuphead and Dodonpachi are like this. Sadly, I can't say the same for Risk of Rain and Enter the Gungeon, in those it's exclusive for the final bosses
To me the crown jewel of boss fights has always been in the mario games, specifically 64, sunshine, galaxy, and odyssey. While relatively easy, every boss has a completely unique approach, that sees you using mario’s moveset in a way you wouldnt normally do throughout the rest of the game, which gives each boss fight a unique personality instead of just dodge, attack, dodge, attack. An honorable mention is the dark souls bosses, while not mechanically unique, they are an absolute narrative and visual spectacle, and tell a story without using a single word besides the boss’s initial cutscene. To me this separates boss fights into 2 categories: mechanical uniqueness, and narrative/visual spectacle. While a fight can have both, doing either of these exceptionally well is what will make your boss fight memorable to players, or at least to me
I think you misused the term 'boss rush' a boss rush is when you fight previously beaten bosses in one go, if you die then sorry, back to the beginning of the boss rush.
Boss rush has been used in both contexts, as a genre and a challenge within a larger game. People describe games like Furi as a boss rush even though it doesn’t send you back to the beginning like Megaman or Punch Out would. If the gameplay entirely revolves around fighting bosses people tend to describe it as a boss rush.
cuphead wasn't inced by hand, they did an attempt to inc by hand & by a program & saw that it was almost the same thing so they saved them selves 5 years of production by incing in a program
you should look into a game called Vagante, it’s an action roguelike that leans into combat that’s spiced up each run with random loot and procedural generation. I think the procedural generation is a cool aspect of the bosses, you can’t rely on having a single arena to fight in, but the differing terrain and environmental features provide new strategies to fight them. In Vagante, the thing that does stay stable are the bosses themself. The level areas have themes of caves, forest, dungeon, etc, called biomes the bosses are placed near the end of the levels. The bosses are sorted into biomes so that you only get the cave bosses for the cave levels. Vagante makes sure the bosses behave the same, but I can’t tell whether or not they scale with which level they randomly get put into.
Easily my favourite boss has to be Vergil from Devil May Cry 3 Dante’s Awakening. Each fight has a lot of buildup. Vergil uses a lot of the tools Dante uses. Each fight, Vergil gets some new tricks. The fights themselves are telegraphed, but Vergil mixes up his attack pattern. The hardest part of these fights are Vergil’s own Devil Trigger. It does the same as yours. A boss your size is legit tougher than all the giants like Beowulf, Agni&Rudra, and Cerberus.
I would like to fix one of your statements.Telegraphing an attack isnt necessary to make it fair for the player.Telegraph means extremely obvious movement which is used to refer attacks that have a slow start up.The word you are looking for is anticipation which is one of the fundamentals in animation.It makes the movement feel more natural and organic and adds weight to animation.It is essential to make animation look good even if the character moves fast.Sadly most indie devs arent that knowledgeable enough with these rules.
@@lukebytes5366 Telegraphing is an action that conveys a movement. In video games this is used way too blatantly which makes wind up animations too over exaggerated. Anticipation is a more subtle way of doing it because it doesn’t necessarily convey the same message as obviously. You can use 1 frame for anticipation and it could still convey the same message but more swiftly and intensely.
I’m only 50 seconds into the video so I should probably wait before I make this comment, buuut.. Your writing seems really similar to other youtubers. So work on getting your own “voice”. By that I mostly just mean how you word things and the pacing of your sentences (the but’s and and’s and stuff) I think you should also avoid statements like “avoid frustrating your player”. That’s obvious. What’s not obvious, and what you should say, is what design errors frustrate players.
If I am being entirely honest this probably isn’t my best video. You mentioned finding my “voice” and I think if you wanted to see more of my distinctive voice you should watch my later videos, such as the roguelike or Hyper Light Drifter videos. I think those highlight my specific essayist niche better than this video because this was one of my earlier videos where I was still figuring out what I was doing.
The example in Hollow Knight was awful. Your claim that the Mantis Lords change their attacks when they enter the second phase is untrue. The entire point of the first phase is to acquaint you with the moves of each lord, after which the only change is the pace of the fight. In essence, you are fighting one mantis lord, who is twice as fast in his attacks, changing the rhythm of the fight and testing you on how quickly you learned the first phase. In other words, the fight *relies* on the second phase having identical moves as the first, because otherwise the player would be unprepared for the challenge.
I would argue that the difference between the first and second phases doesn’t need to be huge, which admittedly the difference between the 2 phases in the mantis lord fight isn’t huge. However there are different attack patterns that only exist when you are fighting both Mantis Lords at the same time. Also, even if their attack patterns aren’t radically different on paper, in practice fighting 2 Mantis Lords is a different experience. You can still use a lot of the knowledge you picked up in the first phase, but it provides a twist or subversion on those ideas that makes them more difficult. For instance, with the Radiance fight, she uses the same attacks for the entire fight but when the arena changes you need to use the understanding you gained in the first phase to help you avoid taking damage in the new arena.
@@Chariot_Rider The Radiance negates areas, the Mantis lords just increase the frequency of attacks. The only exception I can think of is the spinning projectile attacks that they do; however, the two projectiles perfectly mirror eachother, requiring of you only to notice this. Where the Radiance includes a new element to the hazards in order to change how you think in the fight, the Mantis Lords add no new element, but just increase the frequency of the old ones. This results in no behavioural change in the players, just increased tension as the old moves become harder to avoid. I think this is why many people like the fight. It's simple. It teaches a mechanic, then makes it more demanding without really changing the rules, just like how good level design does. The Radiance, on the other hand, has you think on your feet and learn as you go. It is not designed with the same goal in mind, which is in part represented by the functional difference in its phases. The Lords just present a one-off gimmick presented twice with a difference in tension, thus basing the experience on a short-term simulated cycle of mastery.
This seems like a silly argument. Sure, technically the attacks in the second phase are the same, but you are forced to evade them differently because they’re now happening from both sides. This complexity through simplicity is what makes it one of the best fights in the game. Also, while the watcher knights also use the same attacks throughout the entire fight, they’re not what I’d call a “low tension boss.”
… watcher knights is not tedious, and I agree with the commenter, mantis lords has the same attacks and it is truly tedious if it was just a bit longer, watcher knights however is a very good boss (my 2nd favorite boss) and it has a few phases, but the fight doesn’t feel tedious, it’s not boring in any way, it’s just that you would either hate the boss because of some reason or you got your ass kicked, that is all.
Its a shame how few views this vid has. Super informative and well written. I learned a lot, thank you
Yea it’s very good
This aged well lol
Can't believe how long I had to look to find a good video on what makes a good boss. This one is definitely the best one I've found so far.
Fr ive been trying to find Ideas and this is really good
The section in which boss fights are ment as a final test to see if you have mastered what the level sets out to teach you is very individually depending on the game. Sometimes boss fights teaches you what you need to learn after they have been defeated rather than before.
Interesting video non the less.
Good video! I’ve been looking into what makes up a memorable, challenging boss fight. I needed this.
Correction: the mantis lords use the same attacks switching phases but together at the same time and there just higher on the wall. Other then that good vid I feel most was obvious but I never thought of the difference between mantis lords and watcher knight like that. No wonder I liked mantis lords and sisters of battle more then watcher knights
Great video,you definitely deserve more views and subscribers.
A grate example is Mataton EX from undertale it’s so good because earlyer on it puts you up against Mataton a fight you literally can’t lose than the very next fight BOOM he’s gay!
My favorite boss is the mantis lords from hollow knight
What was that bullet hell game that allowed you to roll in a top down enviroment? Also what was that sidescroller with the blonde haired lady ?
HaxorViper
I know that the Bullet Hell game is Enter the Gungeon. I don’t know the other one.
The other game is Iconoclasts. It is a puzzle focused Metroidvania with a nice pixel aesthetic. As the Kingslayer said the other game is Enter the Gungeon and is a bullet hell rogue like. Here are the steam pages for both games of you are interested in playing them for yourself.
store.steampowered.com/app/311690/Enter_the_Gungeon/
store.steampowered.com/app/393520/Iconoclasts/
Thanks guys, nice informative video.
all theory 0 talk on execution
*Labels boss rush games, forgets Shadow Of The Colossus*
cave story boss fights fit the story,and with telegraphs,patapon nails it.
you don't know that game but it's good
11:26 how does he not know about a game in the video?
In a bullet-hell game the latter fases are harder, but not always denser, the good boss fights aren't those who use 1 style but can innovate between fases, Touhou, Cuphead and Dodonpachi are like this.
Sadly, I can't say the same for Risk of Rain and Enter the Gungeon, in those it's exclusive for the final bosses
David 26 the bosses in Akai Katana are another amazing example of this.
Thanks so much for making this.
Shot - got some good ideas from this thx.
Great video!
The mantis lord gameplay is so bad it's really funny. I think the point is how you get better over time so it's not criticism or anything lol.
To me the crown jewel of boss fights has always been in the mario games, specifically 64, sunshine, galaxy, and odyssey. While relatively easy, every boss has a completely unique approach, that sees you using mario’s moveset in a way you wouldnt normally do throughout the rest of the game, which gives each boss fight a unique personality instead of just dodge, attack, dodge, attack. An honorable mention is the dark souls bosses, while not mechanically unique, they are an absolute narrative and visual spectacle, and tell a story without using a single word besides the boss’s initial cutscene. To me this separates boss fights into 2 categories: mechanical uniqueness, and narrative/visual spectacle. While a fight can have both, doing either of these exceptionally well is what will make your boss fight memorable to players, or at least to me
I think you misused the term 'boss rush' a boss rush is when you fight previously beaten bosses in one go, if you die then sorry, back to the beginning of the boss rush.
Boss rush has been used in both contexts, as a genre and a challenge within a larger game. People describe games like Furi as a boss rush even though it doesn’t send you back to the beginning like Megaman or Punch Out would. If the gameplay entirely revolves around fighting bosses people tend to describe it as a boss rush.
boss fights shouldn't be formulated because that's what makes them great ,great video bro .
cuphead wasn't inced by hand, they did an attempt to inc by hand & by a program & saw that it was almost the same thing so they saved them selves 5 years of production by incing in a program
false
Exactly what I was thinking, the result was the same so they used Photoshop to add colors
How do you do this in a game with proceduraly random generation?
you should look into a game called Vagante, it’s an action roguelike that leans into combat that’s spiced up each run with random loot and procedural generation.
I think the procedural generation is a cool aspect of the bosses, you can’t rely on having a single arena to fight in, but the differing terrain and environmental features provide new strategies to fight them. In Vagante, the thing that does stay stable are the bosses themself. The level areas have themes of caves, forest, dungeon, etc, called biomes the bosses are placed near the end of the levels. The bosses are sorted into biomes so that you only get the cave bosses for the cave levels. Vagante makes sure the bosses behave the same, but I can’t tell whether or not they scale with which level they randomly get put into.
@@peon9584 Thanks!
This is great!!!
Easily my favourite boss has to be Vergil from Devil May Cry 3 Dante’s Awakening.
Each fight has a lot of buildup. Vergil uses a lot of the tools Dante uses. Each fight, Vergil gets some new tricks. The fights themselves are telegraphed, but Vergil mixes up his attack pattern.
The hardest part of these fights are Vergil’s own Devil Trigger. It does the same as yours.
A boss your size is legit tougher than all the giants like Beowulf, Agni&Rudra, and Cerberus.
thank you
1:26 game name pls
Iconoclasts
Boss fights should be good and used at the end of a world and make them challenging
Shovel knight you get a pass
7:02 frog boi
I would like to fix one of your statements.Telegraphing an attack isnt necessary to make it fair for the player.Telegraph means extremely obvious movement which is used to refer attacks that have a slow start up.The word you are looking for is anticipation which is one of the fundamentals in animation.It makes the movement feel more natural and organic and adds weight to animation.It is essential to make animation look good even if the character moves fast.Sadly most indie devs arent that knowledgeable enough with these rules.
You didn't really explain why telegraphing isn't necessary to be fair. And anticipation alone can be the telegraph for speedy attacks.
@@lukebytes5366 Telegraphing is an action that conveys a movement. In video games this is used way too blatantly which makes wind up animations too over exaggerated. Anticipation is a more subtle way of doing it because it doesn’t necessarily convey the same message as obviously. You can use 1 frame for
anticipation and it could still convey the same message but more swiftly and intensely.
just make a huge demon with tonsd of damage that fires fast and explosive rockets
I’m only 50 seconds into the video so I should probably wait before I make this comment, buuut..
Your writing seems really similar to other youtubers. So work on getting your own “voice”. By that I mostly just mean how you word things and the pacing of your sentences (the but’s and and’s and stuff)
I think you should also avoid statements like “avoid frustrating your player”. That’s obvious. What’s not obvious, and what you should say, is what design errors frustrate players.
If I am being entirely honest this probably isn’t my best video. You mentioned finding my “voice” and I think if you wanted to see more of my distinctive voice you should watch my later videos, such as the roguelike or Hyper Light Drifter videos. I think those highlight my specific essayist niche better than this video because this was one of my earlier videos where I was still figuring out what I was doing.
Who is the player playing hollow knight?
It needs more practise (or to put the game in a easier difficulty).
hollow knight doesn't have difficulty settings lmao
N precisava zoar o carinha ne
The example in Hollow Knight was awful. Your claim that the Mantis Lords change their attacks when they enter the second phase is untrue. The entire point of the first phase is to acquaint you with the moves of each lord, after which the only change is the pace of the fight. In essence, you are fighting one mantis lord, who is twice as fast in his attacks, changing the rhythm of the fight and testing you on how quickly you learned the first phase.
In other words, the fight *relies* on the second phase having identical moves as the first, because otherwise the player would be unprepared for the challenge.
I would argue that the difference between the first and second phases doesn’t need to be huge, which admittedly the difference between the 2 phases in the mantis lord fight isn’t huge. However there are different attack patterns that only exist when you are fighting both Mantis Lords at the same time. Also, even if their attack patterns aren’t radically different on paper, in practice fighting 2 Mantis Lords is a different experience. You can still use a lot of the knowledge you picked up in the first phase, but it provides a twist or subversion on those ideas that makes them more difficult.
For instance, with the Radiance fight, she uses the same attacks for the entire fight but when the arena changes you need to use the understanding you gained in the first phase to help you avoid taking damage in the new arena.
@@Chariot_Rider The Radiance negates areas, the Mantis lords just increase the frequency of attacks. The only exception I can think of is the spinning projectile attacks that they do; however, the two projectiles perfectly mirror eachother, requiring of you only to notice this. Where the Radiance includes a new element to the hazards in order to change how you think in the fight, the Mantis Lords add no new element, but just increase the frequency of the old ones. This results in no behavioural change in the players, just increased tension as the old moves become harder to avoid.
I think this is why many people like the fight. It's simple. It teaches a mechanic, then makes it more demanding without really changing the rules, just like how good level design does. The Radiance, on the other hand, has you think on your feet and learn as you go. It is not designed with the same goal in mind, which is in part represented by the functional difference in its phases. The Lords just present a one-off gimmick presented twice with a difference in tension, thus basing the experience on a short-term simulated cycle of mastery.
This seems like a silly argument. Sure, technically the attacks in the second phase are the same, but you are forced to evade them differently because they’re now happening from both sides. This complexity through simplicity is what makes it one of the best fights in the game. Also, while the watcher knights also use the same attacks throughout the entire fight, they’re not what I’d call a “low tension boss.”
… watcher knights is not tedious, and I agree with the commenter, mantis lords has the same attacks and it is truly tedious if it was just a bit longer, watcher knights however is a very good boss (my 2nd favorite boss) and it has a few phases, but the fight doesn’t feel tedious, it’s not boring in any way, it’s just that you would either hate the boss because of some reason or you got your ass kicked, that is all.
Good video ! I still feel there are a lot more of things to say but whatever
Watcher Knight is a good example of an unfair and unteresting boss fight.