@@ATD1990 From the Mormon's point of view, Pres. Kimball received a revelation to stop banning the Priesthood from the Black people. The Letter is now canonized in their scripture.
@trevorjex3146 bc they say so. it's all part of the narrative making their fairy tale reality. We are not allowed to "see" the mere mortal behind the curtain. We must ask no questions and simply be deaf, dumb, blind, and mute. Otherwise we are simply "on the road to apostasy". Minds are made up, font confuse them with the truth. Pure examples & definition of cognitive dissonance.
I have heard the defense that some of these changes were changes in "policy" not doctrine. But if your policies are not rooted in doctrine, what is their basis? And I agree, a new revelation indicates new doctrine in this case.
It was described as doctrine by multiple prophets and church leaders. Explained many times by them that blacks were that way because of choices in the pre earth life. How it was ordained of God. Etc. Then it became a policy and had no explanation and members are okay with that explanation. No critical thinking. No checking sources. It is all face value full acceptance. And... People wonder why this high demand religion isn't mentally healthy?
That's a good point. Care to provide sources for your claims? Where is the doctrine that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood due to pre earth life choices? I am a critical thinking active member of the Church. I don't have a problem looking at the real answers to these questions. I just never cease to be amazed how so many people were mindless members of the Church - who then leave to be mindless ex members, but more bitter. You have no answers to a million difficult questions regarding God and the nature of reality. Derivations of which you pretend to corner the Church with - because when you were a mindless member, those questions would've cornered you. My point is - provide sources and at least try to be half as open minded as you're criticizing church members for not being. You're not looking for answers. You're looking for any perceived crack in how you understand the Church so you can say "Ha! see, I'm justified". You're always going to feel so smart in an echo chamber of people doing that. Looking for genuine answers on the other hand.... that's a lot harder.
I told this to a Mormon and reminded him that this came from Brigham Young and that we were promised that the “prophet” would be removed by God if he misled the church. He misled the church and God didn’t remove him. So the guy said BY didn’t mislead the church but he was wrong. So let me understand this; he denied the priesthood to blacks which denied them all the “saving ordinances” for over 100 years, but BY didn’t mislead the church. Well, these are the intellectual knots one must twist oneself into trying to defend Mormon doctrine. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@gomifunelives6085 well, you'd make a bad attorney at least. The misleading the Church quote came after Brigham Young. Your legalist efforts are poor at best. Not that I subscribe to any form of legalism. It does seem accurate that Brigham Young started the policy of blacks not holding the priesthood. You're wrong again in that whatever salvation baptism offers was not withheld from them. Get that hand on your face again and at least realize you're feeling so dug in about an issue you are cloudy on the facts about. From there you'd have to try to answer some real questions. You're using a modern lens of "everything's oppression". But what is your answer for the great disparity among nations and entire races throughout history? Do you believe in God? If so, why would he let it all happen? Do you believe in evolution as god? If so - why are you trying so hard to interfere with it based on your imagined morality? You don't have answers - you're just deciding that your viewpoint now represents righteousness. You've never tried to build a worldwide Church in the aftermath of US slavery - and know what the consequences of your chosen policies would be. You have very likely never built anything interesting that would demonstrate the superior light and knowledge of your judgement. It's easy to pick at old policies for the Church and pretend like you are some sort of righteous and open minded defender of the oppressed and opposer of oppressive religion - however you offer no alternatives. What evidence is there that anyone should pay any credence to your opinion at all? Or who is your god that you now follow, and why should anyone follow that?
@@gomifunelives6085 when I have said the same thing, people have insisted the ban must have been of god but we don't understand the reasons... Now people say it's clear they were speaking as men... So many apologetic responses before admitting maybe the church just isn't true?
Yea trying to get any parts of my family over 40 to agree with anything i say is difficult let alone near impossible for actualy serious issues they just complain about the delivery driver not hand passing them thier package and instead leaving it on their deck or around the back to the most visible entrance which is where they normally place them
@savannah6508 fr cant accept thier own mistakes and just pin it on us for being stupid or lazy like nah i jist got crippling anxiety and depression from being yelled at for the smallest infraction that would be ok or not depending on thier mood makes it really hard to know what it acceptable to do and not
I had the same exact situation at that age. I brought a lot of questions to my seminary teacher and he tried his best but couldn’t come up with anything more than lame excuses. I took those same questions to the bishop and he also couldn’t answer them. Just told me this was “a drop in the bucket of what could be waged against the church but I needed to walk by faith”. That’s exactly what I did, I walked out on the Mormon church in faith that I was doing the right thing.
When asked if oral sex was considered sex before marriage, our seminary teacher said “Just remember this. Oral is moral.” That absolutely stunned me as a sixteen year old but I started questioning the church at around the age of 7 and by the age of 15-16, I knew I was absolutely not Mormon and wanted nothing to do with it. I am so grateful that I found my way back to Jesus and today I am proud to say I am a born again Christian ❤
I’ve heard that before from Mormons. It blows me away because I was raised evangelical Christian and we were told “what is it called?! It’s called ‘oral _sex_ ‘, so obviously that’s not what a righteous Christian does.” They wouldn’t even fully admit whether or not you were allowed to do it _after_ marriage. I got the impression that literally the only sex or sex act they would say is “moral” is hetero, married, missionary position, solely for the purposes of procreation. Even though _no one_ in the church followed that.
I had nearly this exact experience in seminary as well. Only difference was that I was assaulted by someone that was having a hard time hearing things different than what they were taught, and my seminary teacher did nothing about it. That was my last day in seminary, and the beginning of my faith crisis.
So sorry I hope you got supportive community around you - check out the Mormon stories podcasts in full even listening to other with same realisations is helpful
This issue is why I left. I was raised with a lot of racist ideas that my own conscience had a problem with but I was made to accept. Then later they want to gaslight me that it wasn’t actually doctrine and those feelings were on me? If past prophets’ teachings can always be overridden by the current prophet, the church is reduced to having one doctrine: follow the current prophet. And they teach that that obedience is righteous even if the prophet misleads you so that you aren’t even supposed to question if he’s right. This is where it stops being a church and starts being a cult. It’s no longer about what Jesus said, or Joseph Smith, or anything written in scripture, it’s all about making your free agency subservient to the will of the current prophet.
I think the worst part, that was mentioned in gospel topic essays, is Bruce McConkie admitting that what Brigham declared was “limited understanding.” Instead of revelation. The church seriously just confessed right there that a modern day prophet really did lead us astray? As a justification for a historical racist doctrine?
If I am not mistaken aren't Mormons the same young men that wear white shirts and ride bikes? I remember about 23 years ago when I was in college. One of these young men knocked on my door. Now I am African American Christian woman raised in the church. I had seen these young men before but on this particular day 1 came by my apartment. The first thing he said when he entered was he wasn't supposed to be alone with a woman. Me a devout Christian immediately was convicted. I didn't know what to say. Although we were doing nothing wrong but just standing in the foyer, I never want to be anyone's downfall in the faith. The next couple of minutes were the strangest. We just stood there in silence. He looked as if he wanted to cry. Finally, he told me that he was afraid of what the other young men were going to think when I opened the door. The look of fear on his face, baffled me. I reassured him that he did nothing wrong and it would be ok. He apologized and sure enough, as I opened the door they were waiting outside on their bikes. I quickly thanked him for his time and told him I enjoyed the message he shared, etc... That was the strangest encounter. I wonder how that young man well older man is doing today. I shared all that to say, as a person who has grown up in church, I know what it is like to be stuck between church traditions and your faith. You find yourself questioning everything trying to live up to man's ideology when God is the one we should follow.
They (religious "leaders") use fear, shame, and guilt to control the masses, keep them from questioning anything, and to keep them throwing money at the church. It's all about power, control, and wealth. I remember being told, as a child, that if i even had a thought in my head questioning God that i would burn in hell forever. I have seen kids absolutely panic when another child questions God or religious beliefs, and, to me, or seems that is because of that threat- if you even think about questioning, you'll burn in hell. It's a terrifying notion for children, especially, but can cause much fear and guilt in adults, as well. What finally changed my belief in that was when Mother Theresa admitted that she had had a crisis of faith. I knew she was a good Christian and did amazing work helping the less fortunate, and that she would not be burning in hell for questioning. I am no longer a believer in the God of the Bible- or any other man-like representation of a god. I believe there is more to our existence than we realize and that there is a power/force/energy in the universe related to that, but no longer think of it as a Go8 living up in the sky who can see and hear every single thing we say and do, and will judge us accordingly. It has been freeing to come to that place.
What is true today, is true yesterday, tomorrow and forever...The truth doesn't change with the times. There are no "true" churches on the earth only corporations making $$$. Get to know Christ on a personal level & you'll understand... God is love. If you belong to a church that practices anything other than love for ALL of God's children, you may need to reconsider it's validity.
@@DiscoveredTV that's is the most pathetic response to that question I have ever received. Is there any way to test to confirm that what you believe is anything more than imaginary?
Not only ex Mormons but non Mormons. People would always assume I was and say the most horrible judgmental things to my face thinking I believed the same things. I can say I know for a fact that while this church is based on Christ’s teachings, it’s a shield to what the church *actually* is.
My seminary teacher said “If you weren’t born white, Mormon and in America - you aren’t a choice spirit of god”. His name was Eric Shields and we lived in Tooele, Utah. It was when I was in 10th grade in the early 1990s. He also used to call his new baby daughter “Sexy Lexie”. Such a disgusting man.
.....Many will come in his name......many will be charlatans, heretics, blasphemers. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the light of the world. Jesus Saves. Let no religion put ANY name before his. NO Pope No Prophet Just JESUS and his church.
The complexity and magnitude of the Creation around you PROVES the creator exists. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is KING. @@TruthSpeaker.
I remember voicing the same thing as a believing Mormon in high school in 2007, before the Prop 8 stuff, although I felt at the time that the church would eventually come around as they did with blacks and the priesthood.
I don't know why people think that being a Black person is just like being gay. It's completely different being a Black person. Having a sexual orientation is far different from living as a Black person. The Mormon Church permitted Black's to enter because they wanted more money for their Masonic founder's church (Joseph Smith).. Masons help Mason's. My Dad went to the temple in Utah, and the rituals were Masonic. That angels name is Moroni=God of the dead and appears to stand on an obelisk. If the Book of Mormon is so correct, why was it changed over 100 times.
At 17 i asked the bishop as to the prupose of tithe if god says multiple times in the bible that he doesnt care about wealth and neither should we. I got told that it was "fire insurance" to prevent me from burning in hell....
He didn’t compare being black to being gay. He said that if the previous prophets were wrong to prohibit Black people from holding the priesthood, which proves they have been wrong before, then they may also be wrong to prohibit gay marriage. It isn’t a comparison of black and gay, it’s a comparison of past and current leaders of the church.
Although there is so much more to Utah than just Mormons, we left because of the pervasive Mormon culture. Neighbor kids were asking our kids why we didn't go to church and making them feel like our family was doing something wrong. Just moved to the East Coast! Now we only have overzealous evangelicals to worry about!
Well did you know the term " white and delightsome" was taken out of the book of Mormon. It was speaking of skin color. It's all through old mormon literature by their prophets. They assumed the white race was superior in God's eyes. So saying they are the mouth piece of god is a joke
That is not true. That teacher had his own ideas and no facts....They are not to just spew stuff out they personally think might be. Sorry that happened to you.
He is not correct, there has never been a churchwide policy of segregation in the church, and all races were able to be baptized into the church, despite the racist opinions of many in the church, it was never doctrine. And today the church stand for racial integration and inclusiveness to all.
It's not just Mormonism. I ask Christians n Catholics questions all the time n they either get offended or tell me I'm wrong. I can show them in the Bible what I'm referring to n they'll just ignore it.
This is back in the Wild West times, the Civil War was still remembered, everybody was "racist" as in the races stayed apart from others unless there was business to be done. Mostly by choice.
kind of half true, separatism kind of waxes and wanes through US history. around the time of the Wilson presidency racism was ridiculous, Birth of a Nation was accepted as history. For someone that was never really around African Ameircans it would have been extremely powerful telling them they were trying to destroy democracy, rape white women, etc.
It would be interesting if the LCMS, along with all other religious bodies, said that their doctrines are the things that their community has decided and upon which they agree. None of this was revealed by a God, deity, or other mystical entity. It's just the way they see things. Authority would then be found in agreement, not in divine revelation.
Early church leaders probably were racist. Everyone during the early years of the church was probably racist. We're products of our time now, sure enough the early church leaders were products of theirs. Marriage between a man and woman is doctrine and a fundamental in the church. Priesthood being withheld from black members was a policy born from prejudice and uncertainty surrounding that time period. I've enjoyed listening to some of your podcasts, but there are a great number of your videos with some really confused guests on them. And you don't really do a whole lot to push back on their strange reasoning even though you can probably see through their issues. Makes for some cringey, low impact content.
This kid is hyper-intellectual for sure. I saw the whole episode too. It would be interesting to see how he develops as he gets older. Brains don't fully develop until they're 25. Because have some interesting ideas though about math being elegant. He's a prodigy for sure. I bet to be an entrepreneur of some kind. When atheists say there's no God how did they explain the existence of so much beautiful nature
Before Darwin atheism lacked explanation for some substantial matters. Many of the US founders were deists which was about as far as you could go on the evidence before Darwin. ... but in a post Darwin world atheism has sufficient explanatory heft that full-on atheism is now viable in a way that it previously was not. Science doesn't know everything. Probably won't ever know everything. But we have enough science now to dismantle all but the most gaseous forms of superstition.
I'm not sure if the doctrine is more shocking, or the fact this young man is old enough to have graduated and to have been to seminary already. 🤭 Mind you, the doctrine was not so shocking, as it was something I had already known so.... ya. Mormonism is false, as are numerous other ideologies.
The doctrine was not racist. God gave Cain offspring despite Cain being evil. It was mercy, he required Cain's descendants to live a lesser law that would bring less condemnation if they did not live by it. We learn in Romans that the heathen are judged differently than the believers. It was mercy, not racism that caused God to not require the descendants of cain to hold the priesthood.
Let’s just talk about the fact that you believed Joseph smith dug stuff up found in America of all places and and that he was a prophet and you believed at one point that you could become a God of another planet- that’s what Mormons believe- Let’s talk about how you believed such cockananny in the first place!
This young man did a whole podcast and he is not gay which makes his question even greater as none of his questions were for self interest for his own identity but because he seeks justice for everyone - watch the full podcast at Mormon stories it’s facinating
What is the point of this? Basically your spewing hate and negativity, to accomplish what? Spend this energy for a positive purpose and you could do some good in the world.
Jesus said that he would divide people and families. The truth naturally divides people. To be worthy of Jesus and eternal life, one must side with God's truth even if it divides his own family.
To show people that the so called church is full of lies and deceit. I mean come on aren't their prophets supposed to be the mouth piece of god? Don't want people to join something so wrong
@@TS-iv9ml no because if you're an exmormon they can't collectively gang up on you because you're not physically there to question or be vindicated. So it's the sound of his shelf breaking as they respond emotionally to any form of healthy criticism.
Gay marriage?? Jesus Christ gave the law to Moses that allowed the killing of homosexuals that outwardly did gay things... Does God really now say... OH ... its ok... I was wrong in what I said and did?????????
@@loriolson1143 Well Lori... I can tell you don't know much about Jesus. You should study the Bible a bit more. Jesus was often threaten by stoning of the Jews because he claimed to be Jehovah... who was the God of the Old Testament. And he was the God of the Old Testament. He was the God known and called "God is Spirit".... for he was a spirit. Then... Jehovah left heaven and came to earth in a body of flesh and blood. And the body that he enter through was the woman called Mary... the mother of Jesus. So God... became Jesus. So when God gave the Law of Moses to Moses... Jesus remembers giving Moses the Law. For he was the God of the Old Testament. Now you know something more about Jesus that you didn't know before!!!
Blacks and the priesthood wasn't doctrine. It was policy. Brigham Young himself said that it wasn't going to last forever. This is why context is important. Read his freaking talk!
Rotten “fruit” policies can only come from rotted “root” doctrine. Or was Jesus mistaken when He said, ‘By their fruits ye shall know them…’ Oh, and the $5Million fine levied by the SEC and paid by the Church for using shell companies to hide $32billion in assets? The fruits tell the story…
@@jacobbuzan374 Okay, so let's assume for a moment you're right - it wasn't doctrine. Where does that put us in relation to the quest for spiritual truth? Nowhere! How much respect can one have for God when such a one is attributing messages to God that we have no proof weren't forged? You wouldn't like it if people went around claiming you sent a message when infact they aren't absolutely sure if it's forged or really a message from you, so how do you think God likes it? Do you think God appreciates people claiming to know what his opinions are based on things people wrote? This is why I neither respect nor trust people who claim to know what God thinks.
@@TruthSpeaker. You don't need to assume I'm right. I've actually studied this subject quite a bit because it bothered me a lot in the past. You obviously haven't. Like I said, do some research, get the whole context of this history of the church, scriptures, etc. and then you can have your opinions and accusations and "lying for Jesus" if you wish.
@@TheRastacabbageFor if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (Romans 4:2 KJV) "Glory" (Greek: kauchēma) means "boast." You absolutely have something to boast about for simply following the commandments, if doing so contributes to your salvation. And 2 Nephi 25:23, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" is absolutely one's obedience contributing to their own salvation.
Bah! The Mormons are wrong, Joseph Smith made it all up. But the Christians are wrong too. God's not real. The Bible is just a collection of random iron age writings that contradict each other and make stuff up.
@@TheRastacabbage If you follow the commandments, you would not worship an exalted man from another planet. That's idolatry. You would not make fun of Jesus Christ and say that he is a created being the brother of Satan. That's blasphemy, breaking the third commandment. You would not lie and say that Christ requires 10% of your income, a worthiness interview, confession of sins to a bishop (Only God can forgive sins.), earn forgiveness (Forgiveness is free.), go through a masonic Endowment Ceremony, put on Lucifer's power and priesthoods, learn secret grips, tokens, signs, handshakes, and passwords, get married, believe the Book of Mormon is true, believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God even though he had many false prophecies, etc.. When you lie you are breaking the ninth commandment. God requires perfection to get into heaven. You need the righteousness of God. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect.
@@TheRastacabbage "Works that God has given" is exactly what works are mentioned here in Romans 4. Circumcision is a "work that God has given." Paul uses that same work as a stand-in for all works contributing to one's own righteousness later in this passage, saying "how then was it (righteousness) reckoned?...Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision," meaning Abraham was righteous apart from works God gave him. With your phrase "works that are bloody rags" being a substitute for "works" mentioned here, this passage doesn't make sense, because verse 4 says "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." If justification is owed ("reckoned of debt") to you for your works, it would have to be "works that God has given." If your works were bloody rags, you'd be owed nothing, let alone a "reward." This is God's talking points, not mine.
It was doctrine likely made by rascist leaders, ie Brigham Young. Under Joseph Smith a few black men had been ordained to the priesthood. As to the Gay issue, the bible is clear that God created man and woman and commanded them to procreate. Gays cannot procreate. Each person is given agency as a gift from God. God has given us agency to do what we will as long as we do not harm another or impede their agency. Choices have consequences, others do not have to approve or support those choices.
So, should a sterile person never get married? Should a couple only have sex when the woman is in the fertile part of her cycle, and never use birth control? Once a woman goes through menopause, should she stop having sex? Or does sex have a purpose beyond procreation of bonding two people together? Or, is sex such a powerful part of being human, that an organization that can say when, where, and with whom you have sex with does so in order to exert control over the people and keep them in line?
You can choose to live by a religion, you don’t get to make everyone else live by your beliefs. Choices have consequences, others do not have to approve or support your choices. Religion is a choice
@@yorgasor I shared what I believe and stated everyone is an agent unto themselves. You'll have to ask someone else those questions. It is not my place to tell others how to live. I expect the same courtesy.
As to the comparison with gay marriage I'd say that in real Scripture, like the Bible, is said that Salvation is available to everyone on Earth, so excluding black people or any other group from it is clearly contrary to that, but in those same Scriptures it is said that marriage is between a man and a woman, and gay behavior is clearly condemned. It's not like some "Mormon prophet" just said that gays are bad when the whole of Christianity thinks otherwise based on the Bible, on the contrary, that's a prevalent teaching in all branches of Christianity for centuries. We can modify our understanding of it, like condemning the behavior instead of just simply being gay, but we can't just form our own religion and say that every Christian for 2000 years has been wrong.
So, eating pork and shellfish was clearly condemned as well. So, body art and tattoos were clearly condemned as well. Why the hypocrisy and cherry-picking which laws to follow, and which laws to ignore? • Don’t eat animals with split hooves (11:4-7). • Don’t eat animals that don’t have fins and scales (11:9-10). • Don’t mate two different kinds of animals (19:19). • Don’t plant two different kinds of seed in your field (19:19). • Don’t wear clothing made from two different types of fabric (19:19). • Don’t trim off hair at your temples (19:27). • Don’t trim your beard (19:27).
@@missl6975 There's no cherry-picking at all. You're quoting Leviticus, and that's not the only source from where Christians get those laws. We're not bound by the ritual laws of the old Hebrews, like the dietary laws, as those were for a particular people at a particular time. But there are other laws that are for everyone for all time, like "you shall not kill", and that's why murder is a universal sin but there's not a single instance in the Bible where God condemns a non-Jew for eating pork or not following any ritualistic rule. When Jesus came he affirmed those moral laws, he affirmed that all sexual relationships are not clean by condemning adultery, while he said that all foods are clean, and Paul also speaks against sexual immorality while saying that you don't need to be circumcised to be Saved, again reinforcing the idea that we don't need the ritual laws from the Old Testament but we do need to abide by God's moral code. Also in Romans and Corinthians you have a wide condemnation about those practices, so it's not only Leviticus in the OT, but the purely Christian scriptures also.
The Bible is no more real than the Quran. You have no proof your messages are really from God & you show your disrespect for God by attributing messages to him that you have no proof he really sent those messages.
When Moses freed the Israelites from Egypt, only the tribe of Levi was allowed to participate in the priesthood ordinances of the ark of the covenant. So Moses was racist towards all the other tribes. But most people today will not understand how the priesthood works and how it is implemented. As elder Holland said. " the policy was racist, but the doctrine is sound"
The doctrine is fiction. God commanded that only men from the tribe of Levi had the Aaronic priesthood. No man from any other tribe had the Aaronic priesthood. Not even Jesus Christ, his disciples or those in the Book of Mormon had the Aaronic priesthood. Numbers 8 Only men from age 25-50 had the Aaronic priesthood. Twelve year olds were not slaughtering animals. In the New Testament, all believers, men, women, children and even black people have been priests now for 2,000 years. It is not a position in a church. I Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10; Only the LDS Heavenly Father is racist.
Moses didn't exist but the Bible describes him as a terrible person... the most humble terrible person, but still a terrible piece of trash. How much respect can you really have for God when you attribute messages to him when you have no proof he really sent the message?
Good for you!! They also believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. Jesus is not the Jesus that died on the cross. They belief an angel named Moriah. Paul warned about the doctrine that men or angels should say a different doctrine.
It's funny because that warning is from 1 Timothy. Which almost every single scholar says was pseudepigraphical. Meaning it was not written by Paul, but by someone writing after his death pretending to be him so their words will have more weight. Just some random Christian author pretending to be Paul. Like a hundred years later. Look it up.
@@pcoleman2562 "Scholars" agree until they don't. "Most scholars" thought at one point that diseases were caused by bad air, and they'd burn you at the stake figuratively if you said otherwise. So using what "most scholars" agree with as an authoritative argument can convince some people that don't know better, but is not as effective as you think with more learned individuals. That being said, to a Christian believer, 1 Timothy is authoritative because it is in the Bible, not because it was written by Paul or Karen. In fact we're not even sure who "Mark", or "Luke" were, and there are different theories, but their gospels are as authoritative as you can get in the Christian world. So basically what I'm saying is: what was your point?
@@Dan_Capone Lol thanks for proving my point. That belief in the Bible is arbitrary and a purely faith-based decision. Have you studied all the Gnostic Gospels that never made it into the Bible? The infancy Gospels? The book of Judas, book of Thomas, etc? Even the Apocrypha? (Well maybe that one you have if you're Catholic). What was included vs what was excluded in the Bible is purely due to the political agenda of the early Roman church and believing in it as the singular inerrant, unchanging "word of God" is a position of faith only. So then why would you think you'd be able to convince a Mormon, whose position is also based purely on faith and not logic, to come to your way of thinking? Especially since there's just about as many different interpretations of the Bible as there are Christians. I'm no longer a Mormon, but Bible bashing them isn't going to convert a single one. Because they're both inherently faith based positions and not rational.
@@pcoleman2562 I don't think it's arbitrary. There was a reason why some writings weren't included, and it has more to do with the fact that some of them were later writings or they belonged to a particular sect and were produced internally, like the ones we now call "Gnostics". It's not about politics, it's about whether people thought they were authentic from witnesses or they were later fabrications. If you trust that process then logically you'll come to the conclusion that there's also a reason why the books of the Bible are in the Bible, and that's why they're authoritative. Even if a letter that was once believed to be written by Paul, like Hebrews, turns out that most people now agree its anonymous, it doesn't change the fact that it's an integral part of the Bible, and that's why all Christian churches around the world still read Hebrews and try to extract its meaning. Basically, saying "we don't know who wrote it" is a weak rebuttal.
This kid is so intelligent, but he can’t not even communicate. I watched the episode, but I wanted to stop my torture, lol. He is not a likable kid either. I hope you find yourself. He does not care for anything. Probably because of the brain washing or something else. I read a book that says talent is not enough, and I think being smart is not enough either. I feel bad for the kid, even though I can only deal with math on the 2+2=4. Lol. He does not think his indoctrination is affecting him at all. He looks lost, but maybe this is only me.
Indoctrination? Like your own indoctrination? You haven't explained how he's indoctrinated but you probably think the bible is of supernatural origins & have no proof of that.
Now you're manipulating people's native concern for children to score cheap shots Vendingdude? You clearly didn't watch the vid. That kid is way smarter than John.
Watch the entire episode! M.I.T. or Mormon Mission? - James Camacho | Ep. 1806
ruclips.net/video/Yp5s9io8NMU/видео.html
Still waiting for my episode on this podcast
I absolutely recommend this podcast to anyone it’s is fascinating
What do I need to do to get on this podcast
They were racist and it was doctrine.
Yep, racist was an easy mark for the cultification process.
Yup
You’re speaking in the past tense when you should be using present tense.
It was doctrine, yet the members today will fight to say it was not. My question is, if it was not doctrine, why was there a need for a revelation?
There wasnt any revelation they just say stuff thst isnt true
@@ATD1990well of course we know that, but why did they feel the need to market it as a revelation?
@@ATD1990 From the Mormon's point of view, Pres. Kimball received a revelation to stop banning the Priesthood from the Black people. The Letter is now canonized in their scripture.
@trevorjex3146 bc they say so. it's all part of the narrative making their fairy tale reality. We are not allowed to "see" the mere mortal behind the curtain. We must ask no questions and simply be deaf, dumb, blind, and mute. Otherwise we are simply "on the road to apostasy". Minds are made up, font confuse them with the truth. Pure examples & definition of cognitive dissonance.
I have heard the defense that some of these changes were changes in "policy" not doctrine. But if your policies are not rooted in doctrine, what is their basis? And I agree, a new revelation indicates new doctrine in this case.
If they were wrong about this, maybe they were wrong about... Everything.
Maybe??
Yep
So does that mean you are either always wrong or always right?
Yea.
Good comment.
Profound.
@@ellimorley1593 Of course not. But how will you teach the truth if you are believe in so many lies?
It seems the LDS doesn’t like to be questioned.
No cults or narcissists like being questioned. They just want instant obedience.
No they do not
It was described as doctrine by multiple prophets and church leaders. Explained many times by them that blacks were that way because of choices in the pre earth life. How it was ordained of God. Etc. Then it became a policy and had no explanation and members are okay with that explanation. No critical thinking. No checking sources. It is all face value full acceptance. And... People wonder why this high demand religion isn't mentally healthy?
That's a good point. Care to provide sources for your claims? Where is the doctrine that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood due to pre earth life choices? I am a critical thinking active member of the Church. I don't have a problem looking at the real answers to these questions. I just never cease to be amazed how so many people were mindless members of the Church - who then leave to be mindless ex members, but more bitter. You have no answers to a million difficult questions regarding God and the nature of reality. Derivations of which you pretend to corner the Church with - because when you were a mindless member, those questions would've cornered you.
My point is - provide sources and at least try to be half as open minded as you're criticizing church members for not being. You're not looking for answers. You're looking for any perceived crack in how you understand the Church so you can say "Ha! see, I'm justified". You're always going to feel so smart in an echo chamber of people doing that. Looking for genuine answers on the other hand.... that's a lot harder.
I told this to a Mormon and reminded him that this came from Brigham Young and that we were promised that the “prophet” would be removed by God if he misled the church. He misled the church and God didn’t remove him. So the guy said BY didn’t mislead the church but he was wrong. So let me understand this; he denied the priesthood to blacks which denied them all the “saving ordinances” for over 100 years, but BY didn’t mislead the church. Well, these are the intellectual knots one must twist oneself into trying to defend Mormon doctrine. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@gomifunelives6085 well, you'd make a bad attorney at least. The misleading the Church quote came after Brigham Young. Your legalist efforts are poor at best. Not that I subscribe to any form of legalism.
It does seem accurate that Brigham Young started the policy of blacks not holding the priesthood. You're wrong again in that whatever salvation baptism offers was not withheld from them. Get that hand on your face again and at least realize you're feeling so dug in about an issue you are cloudy on the facts about.
From there you'd have to try to answer some real questions. You're using a modern lens of "everything's oppression". But what is your answer for the great disparity among nations and entire races throughout history? Do you believe in God? If so, why would he let it all happen? Do you believe in evolution as god? If so - why are you trying so hard to interfere with it based on your imagined morality?
You don't have answers - you're just deciding that your viewpoint now represents righteousness. You've never tried to build a worldwide Church in the aftermath of US slavery - and know what the consequences of your chosen policies would be. You have very likely never built anything interesting that would demonstrate the superior light and knowledge of your judgement. It's easy to pick at old policies for the Church and pretend like you are some sort of righteous and open minded defender of the oppressed and opposer of oppressive religion - however you offer no alternatives. What evidence is there that anyone should pay any credence to your opinion at all? Or who is your god that you now follow, and why should anyone follow that?
@@gomifunelives6085 when I have said the same thing, people have insisted the ban must have been of god but we don't understand the reasons... Now people say it's clear they were speaking as men... So many apologetic responses before admitting maybe the church just isn't true?
Show me a religion that is mentally healthy, especially when you have questions or need things to make sense.
This, brothers and sisters, is why you do not mess with gen-z.
They were born in fire. 🔥👶🔥
They see ALL our BS ... and they will require us to own it.
Yea trying to get any parts of my family over 40 to agree with anything i say is difficult let alone near impossible for actualy serious issues they just complain about the delivery driver not hand passing them thier package and instead leaving it on their deck or around the back to the most visible entrance which is where they normally place them
Yassssss! 👏 I’m gen X, and always said this about y’all!
@@dishmeup or that we don't want to do work or that we're 'too sensitive' lol. like you raised us?? 😭😭
@savannah6508 fr cant accept thier own mistakes and just pin it on us for being stupid or lazy like nah i jist got crippling anxiety and depression from being yelled at for the smallest infraction that would be ok or not depending on thier mood makes it really hard to know what it acceptable to do and not
Good on you mate....from Australia 🇦🇺...proud of you....❤
I had the same exact situation at that age. I brought a lot of questions to my seminary teacher and he tried his best but couldn’t come up with anything more than lame excuses. I took those same questions to the bishop and he also couldn’t answer them. Just told me this was “a drop in the bucket of what could be waged against the church but I needed to walk by faith”. That’s exactly what I did, I walked out on the Mormon church in faith that I was doing the right thing.
When asked if oral sex was considered sex before marriage, our seminary teacher said “Just remember this. Oral is moral.” That absolutely stunned me as a sixteen year old but I started questioning the church at around the age of 7 and by the age of 15-16, I knew I was absolutely not Mormon and wanted nothing to do with it. I am so grateful that I found my way back to Jesus and today I am proud to say I am a born again Christian ❤
Reading this just absolutely stunned me as a grown woman 😯😳🥺
Well, rhyme replaces reason, for cults.
Oral is moral?
I’ve heard that before from Mormons.
It blows me away because I was raised evangelical Christian and we were told “what is it called?! It’s called ‘oral _sex_ ‘, so obviously that’s not what a righteous Christian does.”
They wouldn’t even fully admit whether or not you were allowed to do it _after_ marriage.
I got the impression that literally the only sex or sex act they would say is “moral” is hetero, married, missionary position, solely for the purposes of procreation.
Even though _no one_ in the church followed that.
Religion with the sexual repression = morality bs just makes me shake my head and laugh
They literally pulled the religion out of a hat, like a real hat. How does anyone believe any bit of it.
Yes! Asking questions is a no no in any cult. Asking questions is embraced in true Christianity and directed towards the Lord God himself.
"Is this what exmos feel like every day in Utah?!"
YES. the answer is always yes & it's not just in Utah
I had nearly this exact experience in seminary as well. Only difference was that I was assaulted by someone that was having a hard time hearing things different than what they were taught, and my seminary teacher did nothing about it. That was my last day in seminary, and the beginning of my faith crisis.
So sorry I hope you got supportive community around you - check out the Mormon stories podcasts in full even listening to other with same realisations is helpful
This issue is why I left. I was raised with a lot of racist ideas that my own conscience had a problem with but I was made to accept. Then later they want to gaslight me that it wasn’t actually doctrine and those feelings were on me?
If past prophets’ teachings can always be overridden by the current prophet, the church is reduced to having one doctrine: follow the current prophet. And they teach that that obedience is righteous even if the prophet misleads you so that you aren’t even supposed to question if he’s right.
This is where it stops being a church and starts being a cult. It’s no longer about what Jesus said, or Joseph Smith, or anything written in scripture, it’s all about making your free agency subservient to the will of the current prophet.
Well said 👏
I think the worst part, that was mentioned in gospel topic essays, is Bruce McConkie admitting that what Brigham declared was “limited understanding.” Instead of revelation.
The church seriously just confessed right there that a modern day prophet really did lead us astray? As a justification for a historical racist doctrine?
If I am not mistaken aren't Mormons the same young men that wear white shirts and ride bikes? I remember about 23 years ago when I was in college. One of these young men knocked on my door. Now I am African American Christian woman raised in the church. I had seen these young men before but on this particular day 1 came by my apartment. The first thing he said when he entered was he wasn't supposed to be alone with a woman. Me a devout Christian immediately was convicted. I didn't know what to say. Although we were doing nothing wrong but just standing in the foyer, I never want to be anyone's downfall in the faith.
The next couple of minutes were the strangest. We just stood there in silence. He looked as if he wanted to cry. Finally, he told me that he was afraid of what the other young men were going to think when I opened the door. The look of fear on his face, baffled me. I reassured him that he did nothing wrong and it would be ok. He apologized and sure enough, as I opened the door they were waiting outside on their bikes. I quickly thanked him for his time and told him I enjoyed the message he shared, etc... That was the strangest encounter. I wonder how that young man well older man is doing today.
I shared all that to say, as a person who has grown up in church, I know what it is like to be stuck between church traditions and your faith. You find yourself questioning everything trying to live up to man's ideology when God is the one we should follow.
Yeah i love how they think that the hate is going to make you stay more.
They (religious "leaders") use fear, shame, and guilt to control the masses, keep them from questioning anything, and to keep them throwing money at the church. It's all about power, control, and wealth. I remember being told, as a child, that if i even had a thought in my head questioning God that i would burn in hell forever. I have seen kids absolutely panic when another child questions God or religious beliefs, and, to me, or seems that is because of that threat- if you even think about questioning, you'll burn in hell. It's a terrifying notion for children, especially, but can cause much fear and guilt in adults, as well. What finally changed my belief in that was when Mother Theresa admitted that she had had a crisis of faith. I knew she was a good Christian and did amazing work helping the less fortunate, and that she would not be burning in hell for questioning. I am no longer a believer in the God of the Bible- or any other man-like representation of a god. I believe there is more to our existence than we realize and that there is a power/force/energy in the universe related to that, but no longer think of it as a Go8 living up in the sky who can see and hear every single thing we say and do, and will judge us accordingly. It has been freeing to come to that place.
What is true today, is true yesterday, tomorrow and forever...The truth doesn't change with the times. There are no "true" churches on the earth only corporations making $$$. Get to know Christ on a personal level & you'll understand... God is love. If you belong to a church that practices anything other than love for ALL of God's children, you may need to reconsider it's validity.
AMEN
Why should anyone care what the Bible says
What they'll say is that it just wasn't time yet, all things the lords time they say. It's pretty convenient, really. Now they can claim anything
@@joshuaboehner4652 You'll get the answer to that very soon. 🤫
@@DiscoveredTV that's is the most pathetic response to that question I have ever received. Is there any way to test to confirm that what you believe is anything more than imaginary?
Not only ex Mormons but non Mormons. People would always assume I was and say the most horrible judgmental things to my face thinking I believed the same things. I can say I know for a fact that while this church is based on Christ’s teachings, it’s a shield to what the church *actually* is.
My seminary teacher said “If you weren’t born white, Mormon and in America - you aren’t a choice spirit of god”. His name was Eric Shields and we lived in Tooele, Utah. It was when I was in 10th grade in the early 1990s. He also used to call his new baby daughter “Sexy Lexie”. Such a disgusting man.
.....Many will come in his name......many will be charlatans, heretics, blasphemers. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the light of the world. Jesus Saves. Let no religion put ANY name before his. NO Pope No Prophet Just JESUS and his church.
Prove it. Oh wait, you can't.
@@TruthSpeaker. Why don't you prove it. Oh wait, you cant
The complexity and magnitude of the Creation around you PROVES the creator exists. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is KING. @@TruthSpeaker.
don't mess with gen z!
I remember voicing the same thing as a believing Mormon in high school in 2007, before the Prop 8 stuff, although I felt at the time that the church would eventually come around as they did with blacks and the priesthood.
I don't know why people think that being a Black person is just like being gay. It's completely different being a Black person. Having a sexual orientation is far different from living as a Black person.
The Mormon Church permitted Black's to enter because they wanted more money for their Masonic founder's church (Joseph Smith).. Masons help Mason's. My Dad went to the temple in Utah, and the rituals were Masonic. That angels name is Moroni=God of the dead and appears to stand on an obelisk. If the Book of Mormon is so correct, why was it changed over 100 times.
At 17 i asked the bishop as to the prupose of tithe if god says multiple times in the bible that he doesnt care about wealth and neither should we. I got told that it was "fire insurance" to prevent me from burning in hell....
Ex mormons, and none mormons.
Comparing blacks not being int the priesthood to gay marriage?? Not even the same ballpark.
He didn’t compare being black to being gay. He said that if the previous prophets were wrong to prohibit Black people from holding the priesthood, which proves they have been wrong before, then they may also be wrong to prohibit gay marriage.
It isn’t a comparison of black and gay, it’s a comparison of past and current leaders of the church.
Why do exmormon people stay in Utah? Why?! I don't get it at all
Family, friends, jobs, real estate... picking up and moving states on a whim isn't easy
It's their home... why should they leave their home?
It's an entire state. There is more than just Mormons in Utah, even if it's a very large part
Although there is so much more to Utah than just Mormons, we left because of the pervasive Mormon culture. Neighbor kids were asking our kids why we didn't go to church and making them feel like our family was doing something wrong. Just moved to the East Coast! Now we only have overzealous evangelicals to worry about!
Move just for being ex Mormon? I think there is a lot going on in Utah other than Mormonism.
It's a cult. Glad you are asking questions and breaking out. Ok
The religious doctrine was based on a personal power agenda. Not the scriptures.
Well did you know the term " white and delightsome" was taken out of the book of Mormon. It was speaking of skin color. It's all through old mormon literature by their prophets. They assumed the white race was superior in God's eyes. So saying they are the mouth piece of god is a joke
One whole day to ask the hard questions.
That was an individual's opinion.
they literally are.. they just try to cover it up nowadays
☦️ TELLING The TRUTH FOR 2000 years.. PERIOD!!
That is not true. That teacher had his own ideas and no facts....They are not to just spew stuff out they personally think might be. Sorry that happened to you.
Pretty much. Bunch of nasty gossips.
Are the Mormons the ones with the weird underwear ?
Yep
He is not correct, there has never been a churchwide policy of segregation in the church, and all races were able to be baptized into the church, despite the racist opinions of many in the church, it was never doctrine. And today the church stand for racial integration and inclusiveness to all.
It's not just Mormonism. I ask Christians n Catholics questions all the time n they either get offended or tell me I'm wrong. I can show them in the Bible what I'm referring to n they'll just ignore it.
Yeah they are wrong about everything.
This is back in the Wild West times, the Civil War was still remembered, everybody was "racist" as in the races stayed apart from others unless there was business to be done. Mostly by choice.
kind of half true, separatism kind of waxes and wanes through US history. around the time of the Wilson presidency racism was ridiculous, Birth of a Nation was accepted as history. For someone that was never really around African Ameircans it would have been extremely powerful telling them they were trying to destroy democracy, rape white women, etc.
It would be interesting if the LCMS, along with all other religious bodies, said that their doctrines are the things that their community has decided and upon which they agree. None of this was revealed by a God, deity, or other mystical entity. It's just the way they see things. Authority would then be found in agreement, not in divine revelation.
Blacks? In the priesthood? Whaaaaaaassaaaaat?😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
It wasn’t doctrine it just wasn’t the right time in history. Prophets asked God many many times and every answer they got was to wait.
Early church leaders probably were racist. Everyone during the early years of the church was probably racist.
We're products of our time now, sure enough the early church leaders were products of theirs.
Marriage between a man and woman is doctrine and a fundamental in the church. Priesthood being withheld from black members was a policy born from prejudice and uncertainty surrounding that time period.
I've enjoyed listening to some of your podcasts, but there are a great number of your videos with some really confused guests on them. And you don't really do a whole lot to push back on their strange reasoning even though you can probably see through their issues. Makes for some cringey, low impact content.
That’s what happens when you challenge or leave a cult
So what do you think happens to someone who doesn't believe in any religion 👀
I'm doing this as a public service announcement...
There is nothing saintly about you mormons.
That is all...
hm... is this how mormons feel every single day of their lives?
This kid is hyper-intellectual for sure. I saw the whole episode too. It would be interesting to see how he develops as he gets older. Brains don't fully develop until they're 25. Because have some interesting ideas though about math being elegant. He's a prodigy for sure. I bet to be an entrepreneur of some kind.
When atheists say there's no God how did they explain the existence of so much beautiful nature
Before Darwin atheism lacked explanation for some substantial matters. Many of the US founders were deists which was about as far as you could go on the evidence before Darwin. ... but in a post Darwin world atheism has sufficient explanatory heft that full-on atheism is now viable in a way that it previously was not.
Science doesn't know everything. Probably won't ever know everything. But we have enough science now to dismantle all but the most gaseous forms of superstition.
How could anyone believe it’s all from God. Like, GOD. Come on!😩😩😡😑
Exactly why I left the church the moment I could !
Racists...absolutely, but they paraded it around as if it was from the Lord, that's the way God wanted it, what a bunch of bologna
The Bible
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus. Once you remove Jesus as LORD of All, you are lost.
I'm not sure if the doctrine is more shocking, or the fact this young man is old enough to have graduated and to have been to seminary already.
🤭
Mind you, the doctrine was not so shocking, as it was something I had already known so.... ya.
Mormonism is false, as are numerous other ideologies.
No agenda, I'm sure.
It's how the world feels to western religions tbh
Not only in Utah pal
It definitely was doctrine
Why are there so many edits....... in a 30 second video?
Probably to get it down to 30 seconds.
I hope you come to the true Catholic Church
Incredible
The doctrine was not racist. God gave Cain offspring despite Cain being evil. It was mercy, he required Cain's descendants to live a lesser law that would bring less condemnation if they did not live by it. We learn in Romans that the heathen are judged differently than the believers.
It was mercy, not racism that caused God to not require the descendants of cain to hold the priesthood.
Let’s just talk about the fact that you believed Joseph smith dug stuff up found in America of all places and and that he was a prophet and you believed at one point that you could become a God of another planet- that’s what Mormons believe-
Let’s talk about how you believed such cockananny in the first place!
They had no idea he was gay. None
it just doesn't cross their mind that a gay person can be normal, they must have horns and a tail
This young man did a whole podcast and he is not gay which makes his question even greater as none of his questions were for self interest for his own identity but because he seeks justice for everyone - watch the full podcast at Mormon stories it’s facinating
Bull crap!!!
What is the point of this? Basically your spewing hate and negativity, to accomplish what? Spend this energy for a positive purpose and you could do some good in the world.
Jesus said that he would divide people and families. The truth naturally divides people. To be worthy of Jesus and eternal life, one must side with God's truth even if it divides his own family.
The point is exposing your false beliefs.
@@TruthSpeaker. God bless you!
To show people that the so called church is full of lies and deceit. I mean come on aren't their prophets supposed to be the mouth piece of god? Don't want people to join something so wrong
It's not what exmormons feel like...that was the sound of your shelf breaking.
It IS how 100% how exmos are treated and talked about.
@@TS-iv9ml no because if you're an exmormon they can't collectively gang up on you because you're not physically there to question or be vindicated. So it's the sound of his shelf breaking as they respond emotionally to any form of healthy criticism.
Gay marriage?? Jesus Christ gave the law to Moses that allowed the killing of homosexuals that outwardly did gay things... Does God really now say... OH ... its ok... I was wrong in what I said and did?????????
Jesus wasn't around when Moses was this is false
@@loriolson1143 Well Lori... I can tell you don't know much about Jesus. You should study the Bible a bit more.
Jesus was often threaten by stoning of the Jews because he claimed to be Jehovah... who was the God of the Old Testament. And he was the God of the Old Testament. He was the God known and called "God is Spirit".... for he was a spirit.
Then... Jehovah left heaven and came to earth in a body of flesh and blood. And the body that he enter through was the woman called Mary... the mother of Jesus.
So God... became Jesus. So when God gave the Law of Moses to Moses... Jesus remembers giving Moses the Law. For he was the God of the Old Testament.
Now you know something more about Jesus that you didn't know before!!!
Money making chuch.
Blacks and the priesthood wasn't doctrine. It was policy. Brigham Young himself said that it wasn't going to last forever. This is why context is important. Read his freaking talk!
Rotten “fruit” policies can only come from rotted “root” doctrine. Or was Jesus mistaken when He said, ‘By their fruits ye shall know them…’ Oh, and the $5Million fine levied by the SEC and paid by the Church for using shell companies to hide $32billion in assets? The fruits tell the story…
Lying for Jesus, heh?
@@TruthSpeaker. You obviously haven't read anything on the subject, so I don't know why you're even commenting.
@@jacobbuzan374 Okay, so let's assume for a moment you're right - it wasn't doctrine. Where does that put us in relation to the quest for spiritual truth? Nowhere! How much respect can one have for God when such a one is attributing messages to God that we have no proof weren't forged?
You wouldn't like it if people went around claiming you sent a message when infact they aren't absolutely sure if it's forged or really a message from you, so how do you think God likes it? Do you think God appreciates people claiming to know what his opinions are based on things people wrote?
This is why I neither respect nor trust people who claim to know what God thinks.
@@TruthSpeaker. You don't need to assume I'm right. I've actually studied this subject quite a bit because it bothered me a lot in the past. You obviously haven't. Like I said, do some research, get the whole context of this history of the church, scriptures, etc. and then you can have your opinions and accusations and "lying for Jesus" if you wish.
Mormons also believe that works save you, but real Bible believing Christians know we are saved by Grace, not works lest someone should boast.
No True Scotsman logical fallacy
@@TheRastacabbageFor if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(Romans 4:2 KJV)
"Glory" (Greek: kauchēma) means "boast." You absolutely have something to boast about for simply following the commandments, if doing so contributes to your salvation. And 2 Nephi 25:23, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" is absolutely one's obedience contributing to their own salvation.
Bah! The Mormons are wrong, Joseph Smith made it all up. But the Christians are wrong too. God's not real. The Bible is just a collection of random iron age writings that contradict each other and make stuff up.
@@TheRastacabbage
If you follow the commandments, you would not worship an exalted man from another planet. That's idolatry.
You would not make fun of Jesus Christ and say that he is a created being the brother of Satan. That's blasphemy, breaking the third commandment.
You would not lie and say that Christ requires 10% of your income, a worthiness interview, confession of sins to a bishop (Only God can forgive sins.), earn forgiveness (Forgiveness is free.), go through a masonic Endowment Ceremony, put on Lucifer's power and priesthoods, learn secret grips, tokens, signs, handshakes, and passwords, get married, believe the Book of Mormon is true, believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God even though he had many false prophecies, etc.. When you lie you are breaking the ninth commandment.
God requires perfection to get into heaven. You need the righteousness of God. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect.
@@TheRastacabbage "Works that God has given" is exactly what works are mentioned here in Romans 4. Circumcision is a "work that God has given." Paul uses that same work as a stand-in for all works contributing to one's own righteousness later in this passage, saying "how then was it (righteousness) reckoned?...Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision," meaning Abraham was righteous apart from works God gave him.
With your phrase "works that are bloody rags" being a substitute for "works" mentioned here, this passage doesn't make sense, because verse 4 says "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." If justification is owed ("reckoned of debt") to you for your works, it would have to be "works that God has given." If your works were bloody rags, you'd be owed nothing, let alone a "reward." This is God's talking points, not mine.
It was doctrine likely made by rascist leaders, ie Brigham Young. Under Joseph Smith a few black men had been ordained to the priesthood.
As to the Gay issue, the bible is clear that God created man and woman and commanded them to procreate. Gays cannot procreate. Each person is given agency as a gift from God. God has given us agency to do what we will as long as we do not harm another or impede their agency. Choices have consequences, others do not have to approve or support those choices.
So, should a sterile person never get married? Should a couple only have sex when the woman is in the fertile part of her cycle, and never use birth control? Once a woman goes through menopause, should she stop having sex? Or does sex have a purpose beyond procreation of bonding two people together?
Or, is sex such a powerful part of being human, that an organization that can say when, where, and with whom you have sex with does so in order to exert control over the people and keep them in line?
You can choose to live by a religion, you don’t get to make everyone else live by your beliefs. Choices have consequences, others do not have to approve or support your choices. Religion is a choice
@@yorgasor I shared what I believe and stated everyone is an agent unto themselves. You'll have to ask someone else those questions. It is not my place to tell others how to live. I expect the same courtesy.
@@mommyofkittens4809 I agree.
Why should anyone care what the Bible says?
As to the comparison with gay marriage I'd say that in real Scripture, like the Bible, is said that Salvation is available to everyone on Earth, so excluding black people or any other group from it is clearly contrary to that, but in those same Scriptures it is said that marriage is between a man and a woman, and gay behavior is clearly condemned. It's not like some "Mormon prophet" just said that gays are bad when the whole of Christianity thinks otherwise based on the Bible, on the contrary, that's a prevalent teaching in all branches of Christianity for centuries. We can modify our understanding of it, like condemning the behavior instead of just simply being gay, but we can't just form our own religion and say that every Christian for 2000 years has been wrong.
So, eating pork and shellfish was clearly condemned as well. So, body art and tattoos were clearly condemned as well.
Why the hypocrisy and cherry-picking which laws to follow, and which laws to ignore?
• Don’t eat animals with split hooves (11:4-7).
• Don’t eat animals that don’t have fins and scales (11:9-10).
• Don’t mate two different kinds of animals (19:19).
• Don’t plant two different kinds of seed in your field (19:19).
• Don’t wear clothing made from two different types of fabric (19:19).
• Don’t trim off hair at your temples (19:27).
• Don’t trim your beard (19:27).
@@missl6975 There's no cherry-picking at all. You're quoting Leviticus, and that's not the only source from where Christians get those laws. We're not bound by the ritual laws of the old Hebrews, like the dietary laws, as those were for a particular people at a particular time. But there are other laws that are for everyone for all time, like "you shall not kill", and that's why murder is a universal sin but there's not a single instance in the Bible where God condemns a non-Jew for eating pork or not following any ritualistic rule. When Jesus came he affirmed those moral laws, he affirmed that all sexual relationships are not clean by condemning adultery, while he said that all foods are clean, and Paul also speaks against sexual immorality while saying that you don't need to be circumcised to be Saved, again reinforcing the idea that we don't need the ritual laws from the Old Testament but we do need to abide by God's moral code. Also in Romans and Corinthians you have a wide condemnation about those practices, so it's not only Leviticus in the OT, but the purely Christian scriptures also.
The Bible is no more real than the Quran. You have no proof your messages are really from God & you show your disrespect for God by attributing messages to him that you have no proof he really sent those messages.
When Moses freed the Israelites from Egypt, only the tribe of Levi was allowed to participate in the priesthood ordinances of the ark of the covenant. So Moses was racist towards all the other tribes.
But most people today will not understand how the priesthood works and how it is implemented.
As elder Holland said. " the policy was racist, but the doctrine is sound"
The doctrine is fiction. God commanded that only men from the tribe of Levi had the Aaronic priesthood. No man from any other tribe had the Aaronic priesthood. Not even Jesus Christ, his disciples or those in the Book of Mormon had the Aaronic priesthood.
Numbers 8 Only men from age 25-50 had the Aaronic priesthood. Twelve year olds were not slaughtering animals.
In the New Testament, all believers, men, women, children and even black people have been priests now for 2,000 years. It is not a position in a church.
I Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10;
Only the LDS Heavenly Father is racist.
Typical gaslighting: policy based on “doctrine” bad; the roots bearing rotten fruit good! Unbelievable!
Moses didn't exist but the Bible describes him as a terrible person... the most humble terrible person, but still a terrible piece of trash.
How much respect can you really have for God when you attribute messages to him when you have no proof he really sent the message?
Good for you!! They also believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. Jesus is not the Jesus that died on the cross. They belief an angel named Moriah. Paul warned about the doctrine that men or angels should say a different doctrine.
It's funny because that warning is from 1 Timothy. Which almost every single scholar says was pseudepigraphical. Meaning it was not written by Paul, but by someone writing after his death pretending to be him so their words will have more weight. Just some random Christian author pretending to be Paul. Like a hundred years later. Look it up.
Uhm. There is only one Jesus and he died on the cross. I think you don’t really understand what they believe.
@@pcoleman2562 "Scholars" agree until they don't. "Most scholars" thought at one point that diseases were caused by bad air, and they'd burn you at the stake figuratively if you said otherwise. So using what "most scholars" agree with as an authoritative argument can convince some people that don't know better, but is not as effective as you think with more learned individuals. That being said, to a Christian believer, 1 Timothy is authoritative because it is in the Bible, not because it was written by Paul or Karen. In fact we're not even sure who "Mark", or "Luke" were, and there are different theories, but their gospels are as authoritative as you can get in the Christian world. So basically what I'm saying is: what was your point?
@@Dan_Capone Lol thanks for proving my point. That belief in the Bible is arbitrary and a purely faith-based decision. Have you studied all the Gnostic Gospels that never made it into the Bible? The infancy Gospels? The book of Judas, book of Thomas, etc? Even the Apocrypha? (Well maybe that one you have if you're Catholic). What was included vs what was excluded in the Bible is purely due to the political agenda of the early Roman church and believing in it as the singular inerrant, unchanging "word of God" is a position of faith only. So then why would you think you'd be able to convince a Mormon, whose position is also based purely on faith and not logic, to come to your way of thinking? Especially since there's just about as many different interpretations of the Bible as there are Christians. I'm no longer a Mormon, but Bible bashing them isn't going to convert a single one. Because they're both inherently faith based positions and not rational.
@@pcoleman2562 I don't think it's arbitrary. There was a reason why some writings weren't included, and it has more to do with the fact that some of them were later writings or they belonged to a particular sect and were produced internally, like the ones we now call "Gnostics". It's not about politics, it's about whether people thought they were authentic from witnesses or they were later fabrications. If you trust that process then logically you'll come to the conclusion that there's also a reason why the books of the Bible are in the Bible, and that's why they're authoritative. Even if a letter that was once believed to be written by Paul, like Hebrews, turns out that most people now agree its anonymous, it doesn't change the fact that it's an integral part of the Bible, and that's why all Christian churches around the world still read Hebrews and try to extract its meaning. Basically, saying "we don't know who wrote it" is a weak rebuttal.
This kid is so intelligent, but he can’t not even communicate. I watched the episode, but I wanted to stop my torture, lol. He is not a likable kid either. I hope you find yourself. He does not care for anything. Probably because of the brain washing or something else. I read a book that says talent is not enough, and I think being smart is not enough either. I feel bad for the kid, even though I can only deal with math on the 2+2=4. Lol. He does not think his indoctrination is affecting him at all. He looks lost, but maybe this is only me.
Indoctrination? Like your own indoctrination? You haven't explained how he's indoctrinated but you probably think the bible is of supernatural origins & have no proof of that.
Now you're manipulating children to make a buck John? Smh
Now you're manipulating people's native concern for children to score cheap shots Vendingdude? You clearly didn't watch the vid. That kid is way smarter than John.
He's an adult, try again.
I guess no more than an organization baptizing second graders and pushing them to give them money.