I like it how they ignore her, look you want a badass female character? She literally takes down 1-2 stormtroopers then starts talking down to Vader all in the first time we see her. That's a strong female character.
I don't know why they thought Rey could be a role model for girls. If she never struggles, what is there to relate to or even empathize with? When we watched Luke, we cheered for him. When we watched Anakin, we felt sorry for him. There isn't much we can feel about Rey. I found myself cheering more for Jaina Solo in the Legacy of the Force series than Rey.
Agreed. Ahsoka or Padme or Leia would be better examples. Even though two of them come from royalty, they have individual challenges they have to overcome and aren't perfect. Same with Ahsoka. They all make mistakes or make decisions that some see as controversial, and have to struggle to succeed.
@@fazepapasito8166 #1 Why would she be able to bring back luke or redeem Kylo? she has no connection to either at that point #2 She gets her ass kicked in the last movie after dunking on that same character two movies in a row? that seems more like Kylo is the traditional protag there :)
I also liked the story arc of Mara Jade in the EU, as she was someone that had to struggle to overcome her past demons and learn to accept that there was a better way to go forward. Her story is one that perhaps everyone can at some level relate to.
She was still basically the same character at the end of the trilogy that she was at the beginning of it. You can't say that about Anakin or Luke at the end of their respective trilogies. The only real difference is that she now knows how to use the Force, and is no longer 'alone' in the galaxy.
What I got from the sequels, was that Rey wasn’t really supposed to develop but rather help others to. She was the driver for the character arcs of Luke, Finn, and Ben. Ideally, they would have planned the story better to make her a little more interesting, but as someone who has seen characters like Rey in other media, I don’t really have a problem.
turkeydinnerchewie you think they were going for the flat archetype , because flat characters still go through challenges throughout their stories and if you want to show Rey like a flat character affect others surrounding her, try actually showing it, during FA she was with a small amount of characters, the resistance never saw her succeed at beating Kylo Ren. They only heard about her victory. Same for TLJ, where while everyone is struggling she just come in at the end and save the day. That’s the first time the remainder of the resistance actually sees her doing something. In ANH Luke got to meet and connect with his fellow soldiers and fight along side them to destroy the Death Star. He didn’t just spend his time with Obi wan ,Han, Leia, Chewbacca C3PO, and R2D2. Everyone respected and looked up to Luke because they got to see him once or twice throughout all three films fighting for the rebellion weather it was the battle of Yavin, Hoth, or Endor. The Resistance only sees their only Hope fight twice, the battle of scariff and the final battle during Ros. If Rey was supposed to be a flat character she was written badly as one, plus even flat characters are written to be relatable in some ways, Like Goku, Obi Wan, Indiana Jones, etc. (I know Obi Wan went through some small changes but his core values stayed the same which makes him a flat character as well in my book.)
@@turkeydinnerchewie2499 see that alone could be interesting for example Girono Giovana is a fairly static character and is a support to the group and is the protagonist so idk why Disney couldn't do that if that was the intent
Infinity Nexus Reviews Rey isn’t the main character. They didn’t even make toys for her. Finn was the main character of TFA if there was one. What was Leias development in the OT? Oh yeah, being a strong leader who becomes Luke’s sister for no reason.
Anyone else notice that since writers focused on writing strong Female characters instead of just good characters who happen to be female they have been, less than stellar.
Funng thing is, this is far from new. As soon as expanded media started coming out, one of the FIRST things the writers do is fill it up with cool, interesting, badass females...of course, since the media and casual fans don't consume any of that, and only watch the movies, they are left with the misapprehension that SW is sexist because there are only a couple of girls in it. The real difference, I think, is the lack of quality control since Lucas left...
Today you cant show a woman being venerable, emotional or having any flaws. They can't just be good they need to be better than everyone else. Every fight Rey had she won, can't have a woman lose against a man. A experenced female fighter could beat an experienced male fighter, but an inexperienced female fighter couldn't.
Because they’re trying to be like Viktor Frankenstein, piecing together qualities and attributes that they think make for a strong female character. Stop trying to be Frankenstein and be more like Mary Shelley. I mean, all they have to do is watch Aliens. You have three strong female characters in that movie. Four strong female characters in Avatar. Did they not do any research?
@@stue2298 One exception to that would be the women on "The Orville". They are strong but are also vulnerable and have emotions and flaws. And, people like these characters. Go figure.
Rey had huge potential but it was wasted by poor storytelling and a lack of an overall narrative plan. I love Ahsoka, I love Sabine, I love Hera, Carasynthia Dune was pretty badass, what now, SJWs?
that's the thing, these people never cared for feminist icons in SW, they never cared until they had this Main Film character in a big franchise to tick their box
@@meetra5073 one thing I found annoying about Sabine is kinda summed up with "by this point, it wouldn't surprise me if she was force sensitive" - I liked her okay, but not up there
In all honesty, the only negative feelings I have for this character are of disappointment. I don’t hate her, I just hate the way she was handled. Rey could’ve been a great addition to the universe, but she just has such a distorted background-she was created because of feminism and remained a blank piece of paper because of it. I just hate how the writers of the sequel trilogy wasted her character.
I don't know that the character was created to appease feminists, though it's clear that she ended up doing so. The character doesn't particularly even act in any way that could be considered feminist...to do so, they'd have had to actually write in more personality than they did.
@AlphaStorm7652 Their attempts at fixing the movies are always killing off the new characters and making the Sequels be all about the OT cast again. That's garbage.
"Rey could’ve been a great addition to the universe" No, the OT fans made it clear they didn't want new characters who weren't useless idiot sidekicks to the old cast. Rey never stood a chance.
Rey was such a mary sue. they wanted to make her everything. she was herself with a staff, but with an xwing helmet. she is a great pilot. then solo gave her a gun. so stick and gun and bb8 who belongs to poe. then she gets the falcon. an expert at it. she gets lukes saber. never gives up the staff or the gun. so she has all weapons. she gets the xwing and the skywalker name too. she is luke han and leia and lightning from palpatine! she is starwars! lol they pushed to much. I was intrigued with her as a scavenger with a staff. i actually though the staff would have a light saber combo down the road. a clone idea wouldve been great to connect the trilogies, and fin wielding a lightsaber together with her. but have to accept what we got and forget this trilogy and focus more on the past pre maRey sue.
@@kingofmysoregaming4602 I recall Anakin accidentally blowing up the Separatist base at age 9 was also poorly received. At least, I know I hated it. As I remember it, Anakin was in general poorly received. No one called the character a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu because those terms weren't in the general lexicon. The most unfortunate aspect of this is that Jake Lloyd ended on the receiving end of a lot of negative attention. Shame when people can't separate the actor from the role they play. He was just a little kid reading the awful dialogue George Lucas gave him. What did they want from the little guy?
Mary Sue is gender neutral. Use Gary Stew if for male characters if you get your panties in a bunch. But what ever you call it, it is a poorly written character with inexplicable skill and power, has no significant flaws, and is instantly liked by everyone. Rey fits this description perfectly.
@@AndreNitroX yeah I burst out laughing in TLJ where she lifts 100 boulders and her eyes expression was like "what? am I really the one who doing this" while Yoda had to focus lifts several rocks in AoTC
Agreed. Luke was the original Mary Sue. At least Rey was fighting someone learning as well. Nothing in Star Wars is less believable than Luke besting Vader. Farm boy to beating the best pilot in galactic history with no training. Add in Luke's leave it to beaver attitude and he's just as bad as Rey.
You're forgetting the most important part. They bend the rules of the universe around them. Characters can have some of these traits, maybe even all, but if it makes sense for the story and universe that was set up it isn't an issue. The issue is when they break the rules of the universe we've been told and it breaks suspension of disbelief. Had we set up Rey as a trained force user from the get go I don't think the accusation of Mary Sue would have popped up. My suspension of disbelief wouldn't have been shattered when she did the Mindtrick and I wouldn't have had to hold my tongue from yelling BS in the theater because it would make sense how she knows to do it.
Blake Tyson The way I understand, a Mary Sue is a character a fan writer uses to integrate themselves into the story that is basically perfect in every way. What other characters are there that are commonly referred to as Mary Sues that aren't that?
@@Babyboss65 Mary Sue was originally a characature of bad fanfiction characters, but it's evolved into a sort of "catch-all" term for fictional characters who are inexplicably perfect and flawless, author self insert or not.
@@Babyboss65 "a Mary Sue is a character a fan writer uses to integrate themselves into the story " A Mary Sue is a character with a rather well defined set of attributes. The reason for a Mary Sue to exist is very often, but not always, the mentioned self insertion. It CAN be argued that Rey is the self insert of Kathleen Kennedy.
Unfortunately my research has made me only realize how much she's just a composite Frankenstein character made of pieces of Jaina and Ania Solo's stories without the WHY (the heart) of those stories. It's just a tragedy and a shame because I used to DEFEND TFA by saying "the rest of the trilogy will fix things."
I knew the Force Awaken was shit the moment she was able to angle the Falcon into a position so that Finn could shoot down a Tie Fighter But I still had hope for the movie. Because I felt the villain Kylo Ren could save it from the bullshit that was going on with Rey. But when Kylo Lost to Rey easily That destroyed all of my hope for the sequel Trilogy I was done! I knew this was going to be a feminist propaganda movie and Disney Star Wars would never get a penny of my money. I take that back I saw Rogue One So Disney Star Wars did get some more of my money, but that was the last one I gave a watched
Same. Oh how naive we were thinking they'd actually PLANNED this trilogy. I mean, thinking things through, who does that? Oh, wait, GOOD STORY TELLERS!
Yeah she is a Mary Sue but really they could have showed us more training scenes and actual development in TLJ, even TFA has her be stronger than kylo with no training so she definitely is a Mary Sue.
@@marlbartony1621 Some goal for her should have also been nice. I don't understand why she does what she does. Only thing she wants, is to get her parents back...at age 30'ish.
Marlbartony for me, TLJ *almost* gave her some development with her parents being revealed to be “nobody”. It wasn’t really a flaw, and the reveal isn’t the result of any failure of her actions, but at least it touched on something important to her ‘character’: her dependence of finding her family. also yeah, there should’ve been a scene or two of Luke giving her lightsaber training or something.
They ignored his PTSD. They ignored his friendships with other storm troopers. They ignored his possible relationship with Phasma (sp) They ignored his childhood. They ignored the possibility he might be force sensitive (given how he wielded light sabers). Yea-- there was an entire movie there. He had great promise.
Honestly, after Force Awakens I hoped we would get dualing protagonists with Rey and Finn. Rey could be taught by Luke while Finn got some Force instructions from Leia. Then when they meet up later, both can build off of what the other has learned. But nope, they just focus on one, give neither of them any interesting dynamics or character arcs to work with, and thus, both suck in the end.
@@macmcleod1188 Such a false advertisement, I remember seeing the posters of TFA exited to see Finn, and his story is the most compelling in TFA. Then Disney decides to shut his character down because China hates a Black Main Character. (China is disney's biggest revenue)
I knew from the begining that Rey was supposed to be Lukes daughter. You just know JJ would have loved to make I am your cousin in the second movie. How original
@@dakotasherman632 It was the ONLY thing that should have happened. This was meant to be a family saga. It is sad that we never got George Lucas' actual sequels. He had Kira Skywalker as the main young protagonist who was a student of Master Luke.
And they gave her a story reason for being a Mary Sue. In Rise of Skywalker it was because of Midichlorian manipulation by Sidious and her being the daughter of his Clone. Basically just born to be a vessel for Palpatine's evil Spirit. Which was destroying his clone body. A poor remake of Dark Empire.
I gave her a chance for FA but then TLJ confirmed it for me she was a Mary Sue. TROS doesn’t change that view for me. It wouldn’t be that much of a issue but Rey isn’t even a interesting character so overall I wish her character never existed. They should have taken notes from characters like Padme, Leia and Ashoka.
Schlock Jocks they’re was much potential in the beginning however I sense that a lack of planning and forced gender politics ruined all that was the sequel trilogy 😔
Schlock Jocks You know that the head of Disney Star Wars Kathleen Kennedy hasn’t shy’d away from openly sharing her political stances. And on multiple occasions Disney writers and herself have mentioned inclusion of more female characters in Disney. Their intentions may be innocent sure however when we get characters as bad as *Rey Palpatine* and are criticize for not liking them it’s not hard to see why fans like myself think theres bad political messaging being forced into Star Wars
@@kingxkai1179 Star Wars was always political, Lucas injected HIS politics into the series! As for "Rey Palpatine", that's no worse than Vader being Luke's father. If the internet has been around back then fans would be complaining just as much about that!
@@AndreNitroX A lot easier to identify yourself with Luke than Rey - Luke was a teenager that was still not sure what he should do and a lot of people could recognize themselves in him. Rey was OK in the beginning of The Force Awakens but there wasn't much of a personality to the character or her background.
AndreNitro X1000 I mean... I wouldn’t say Rey has no dark side exactly, but it’s definitely much less prominent than Luke’s, more just simmering self-doubt
@@gamedifficulty_4230 Plus what even motivated Rey to be good? Luke's aunt and uncle who raised him were murdered by the Empire, and he had a connection to the Jedi through his father and Obi Wan.
Rey isn't relatable on any level. She isn't even a character, she's a blatant archetype that never grows or develops, never shows personality, and is never interesting. What's worse is that she is overpowered for no logical reason, is skillful at everything despite having no experience, has perfect morals despite having no motivation or path that lead her there, logic and the in universe laws just bend to her will, and she is just given everything without having to earn it. She isn't just a marry sue, she is THE marry sue.
Yoda in ROTS can't beat Sidious despite being Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Rey defeats Palpatine 12 months after holding a lightsaber for the first time. Anakin was trained for years and still got smashed by Dooku!
@@Eki718 Sidious did clearly throw the fight when he holds his lightsaber right up to Mace's chest. I do however think he let his guard down by underestimating Mace's use of vaapad and was surprised when Windu disarmed him. However he was never truly in danger as he still had the force.
@@emberfist8347 I wonder why no one is bothered by Luke whoafter 1 year of training beat the force user WHO trained for decades by literally overpowering him and cutting his hand off.
How is Rey supposed to be an icon for anyone? Almost every conflict she faces, she wins with little to no effort on her part. What is that going to teach little girls? That all your problems will fall beneath you if you close your eyes?
Alex Chaudhari they decided to give her actual characterisation in the last movie of a trilogy. Also Palpatine's lightning was decimating a fleet and somehow it's no problem for rey
@@achaudhari101 Not really. None of the mistakes she makes has any real consequence. She accidentaly killed Chewie! Oh no she didn't. She killed Kylo Ren! Oh no she didn't. She fucking died! Oh no she didn't. See what I mean?
Fun fact: the idea of a female jedi was made by Kennedy, but the actual character of Rey was created by Lawrence Kasdan (co-writer of ESB and RotJ), J.J. Abrams, and Michael Arndt. I found it hard to believe myself. Source: www.wga.org/writers-room/features-columns/the-craft/2015/star-wars-the-force-awakens-kasdan-abrams-arndt
Rey did not know anything about the Force until episode 7 and considered it a myth. Since childhood, she lives on Dzhaku, drives only the speeder, collects trash and immediately sells. Swing a pipe with a sword has nothing to do, because the sword has no weight. All. And suddenly she: 1) a mega-pilot who can jewelryly guide an unfamiliar ship through the ruins. Who taught her? Huckster who does not give money? Or other homeless people? 2) The sniper, who, for the first time picking up a gun, shot the attack aircraft from 50 meters. 3) The Jedi, the victorious Sith, who by force stops shots, cuts down, paralyzes, reads thoughts, strangles. Kylo grabbed her, put her in a chair ... and she raises Bond, although she does not even know about the deception of the Force. The whole workout. 4) She knows the language of Wookiees (where from?) And droids (people cannot make out their morse code at all). 5) Episode 8 goes immediately after 7. Luke does not train her, she only watches from afar how she waves her sword, like a club. And then she defeats him. Hmm .. 6) Yoda says: There is nothing in your books that she did not know. Well, that is, you are a sucker, and she is a goddess. 7) Defeats almost all the guards and saves Kylo. 8) Raises multi-ton debris without tension and blows three tyfayters out of the gun. 9) 9 episode. Levitates with a blissful expression (without straining). I can trample a cigarette in the gym too. 10) Reflects Palpatine's lightning with which he demolishes ships. Even Anakin, being a Padawan, could not immediately repel Dooku's lightning. 11) Immediately a bunch of superpowers: teleportation, healing, shooting down ships, a yellow sword literally from nowhere.
@Lionard Kirsch Did Leia know about flying, healing, lighting or teleportation, if she just got a base course from young Luke? And hold on one place flying spaceship which is pulling by another strong forceuser...I thought Starkiller was Sue, but this...
But, wasn't the first Mary Sue literally named Mary Sue? Thor just stated it in the video, so shouldn't she be the icon for Mary Sues? But I suppose that no one reads or cares about old Star Trek fan fictions in this day and age, so yes. Rey is the new and eternal icon of Mary Sue. MA-REY SUUUUUUUUEEEEEE.
Rey is the definition of a Mary Sue. Even if we only use this example: She told Han how she fixed the Falcon....his ship for decades, after she was in it for, what, an hour? She can do everything, at any time, with no problems!
What got me was when Han died. Who does Leia, the love of Han's life, hug? Chewie, Han's best friend for decades? No, the new character that she and Han barely knew. Everything and everybody only mattered in relation to Rey.
they showed Finn being the Jedi in the promotional material. Hell, they even showed him wielding a lightsaber in the posters but no Rey's the Jedi somehow
Honestly - it just seems to me to be that JJ Abrams from the beginning wanted Rey to be a Skywalker. He likely told Daisy this during the filming of the first movie. But since the second basically became an ego-project of subverting expectations, movie three had to salvage what it could. Rey went from (first movie) being a character who's abilities could be easily explained by prior training, legacy and having to fend for herself for most of her life, to - agreed - a mary sue. To me that feels like the biggest punch in the gut about this trilogy. The first movie to me had potential still - I found Finn and Poe likable, and Rey to me had the potential to be good. Had to second, and subsequently, the third, movie continued along the same path that (it seems to me) JJ Abrams wanted, then it could have been a fine trilogy. But instead it just kind of turned into a shitshow because Johnson wanted to make his typical rule-breaking subversion movies, rather than dealing with the genre and universe that the movie was already set in.
I agree 100%. Literally everything about the TFA pointed to Rey being Luke's daughter. Personally I thought TFA low key was tying Rey to both the Skywalker and Palpatine bloodlines.
Couldn't agree more! How anyone allowed such an insanely expensive brand to be 'managed' without looking over any overarching story framework for the trilogy seriously boggles my mind.
@@edpistemic I blame Kathleen Kennedy. My theory based on all the evidence is that initially Abrams was hired to do the entire trilogy. Which would explain him writing treatments for the entire trilogy. But KK wanted too much creative control so she could push her feminist agenda. Ultimately somewhere in the process JJ and KK had some major disagreement/s and so she decided to limit Abrams to just episode 7. They agreed for appearances it would be best to have it seem like JJ wasn't interested in doing the entire trilogy(which in hindsight makes no sense considering he came back for episode 9). So Kennedy was forced to find a writer/director who would take on the project short notice(which is evident by the fact that Johnson wasn't around from the beginning) and be willing to give her the film she wanted. So she made a deal with Johnson that he could do whatever with the story so long as his script aligned with her feminist views. And the rest was history...
@@thaThRONe Do you know what? That all sounds bloody plausible to me! That's my head-canon going forward (along with the fact that the Disney films never happened in the SW universe, of course!)
and whats good about her? her typical celebrity smug, her priviledged background or the fact she didnt work a single acting job before taking on a lead role in fuckin Star Wars? or is t something else I missed?
It's just like the Karen thing. Since most Karens are women (male Karens tend to me more the dangerously aggressive people), the Karens are like this is class-ist and sexist. Same goes for Mary Sue. Male Mary Sues would just be ignored and forgotten, but female characters live longer as women rarely are represented in media and are more attached to their sister on screen. Female Mary Sues stand out, hence mostly women are described, hence women say it's sexist.
Yes, you see, “Strong Female Characters” don’t have to be strong characters. They don’t need to be well written or three dimensional or complex. They don’t need to grow. They are strong by virtue of being female and proclaimed feminist icons. Suggesting that they need to actually be a strong character is to suggest that simple being female is not enough to be amazing.
It’s the prepackaged response to valid criticism, otherwise know as redirection. It’s been happening ever since the first fan dared criticize MaRey Sue. And it hasn’t stopped since.
Jaden Korr right. ‘You are such a disgusting, bigoted individual that your criticisms can be completely ignored.’ It’s a tool in internet discussions and a demonstration of how ridiculous things can become when the parties are hiding behind a keyboard and a mouse, every disagreement eventually escalates to an accusation of or comparison to nazism.
History has proven with characters like Ripley, Sarah Connor, Michelle Yeow and Zhang Ziyi(Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), The Bride, and many more that no one has a problem with a “well written” female role.
Biggest example for Starwars- Ahsoka Tano - Most fans didnt like her at first, but now she is a fan favorite because we saw her growth thru trials, tribulations , traning and actual gorwing up.
I like Rey in TFA and figured whatever issues I had would be explained in future films. This story really failed her because she could have become something everyone would have been ok with at least.
Imagine if Rey was Luke's daughter and he had Han Solo watching over her (like Obi Wan did for him) because he knew Kylo could be turned back to the good side and he needed to make sure his daughter (Rey) needed to stay safe so he could finish her training in the future. She would be 10/10 and no complaints would be uttered about the sequel trilogy (except for maybe copying the original trilogy).
alienclay2 having Rey as the main character and not knowing how she fits into the story is a big problem. You put her into this story where Anakin Skywalker fell, Luke Skywalker redeemed him and Rey... Palpatine... becomes the ultimate Sith/Jedi by killing a clone of Sheev? Yes TLJ didn’t make any sense, but making Rey a mystery of TFA, then making her a nobody in TLJ then finally making her a somebody in RoS makes no sense what so ever. If they planned Rey to be Rey Skywalker the daughter of Luke from the beginning the 2 other movies would make 1000x more sense
You explain this with great great accuracy and in great detail. This is exactly what is needed for all sides of this controversy to gain understanding and reconcile and finally put this bickering behind us. Additionally, your presentation underscores the point that Lucas film & Disney need to work with the fans not against or in spite of the fans. Thank you so much.
Agreed. The Force Awakens isn't part of a larger story. It doesn't continue the story from ROTJ, let alone Episodes 1 to 6. And ultimately it is NOT George Lucas' story. Ergo it ruined the saga.
@@darkjediknight2923 "iTs nOt LuCaS's ViSiOn" yeah neither is basically all of legends but y'all suck that off. You can say a lot about the sequels but "Its not part of George Lucas' story isnt how you do it. Also innit TFA literally continues the story of the main characters of ROTJ? Theres a timeskip so some are off doing their own thing but they still continue to have a presence in the story if not appear for a extended time.
The Most Iconic Mary Sue, she can levitate herself and rocks in training but cannot do it when in danger in Quicksand But Force Healing has broken the Force Lore beyond repairs
The only reason she doesn't levitate is because the story needs her to fall into the quicksand so they can learn that ochi died because he starved to death and somehow his ship is there and fully operational despite it being there long enough for ochi to turn into a skeleton
I think her being a Palpatine was a way of making her power a little more understandable. Not the perfect decision, but I think it helped when it comes to completing her story arc from where it was at
JJ was like “HAHA REYS A PALPATINE YOU CANT SAY SHES A MARY SUE NOW RIIIIIGGHHT?” and even though we kinda now know why she’s so powerful the explanation they gave is still a really REALLY stupid one imo so to me she’s still a Mary sue
It could have, had it been properly set up. We don't find out until the third movie, and by then her heritage had been retconned so much that it was essentially just another retcon to explain her incredible power.
Just being powerful by lineage wasn't enough. Especially when fans had 2 years to shake JJs mystery boxes (that were wispering Luke or Obiwan as father) and get disappointed when RJ opens it to a "surprise! You were wrong!" Felt like the suprise of someone leaving a burning pile of poop on your front doorstep. When it became clear the the fans were pointing out how poorly written and illogical it was with all the build up of the previous movie, having a desperate JJ, pick up the discarded 'nobodies' box and say "surprise! you were kinda right?" When it was obvious that it was desperation and not well planned out story went over like..... Finding stale candy bar wrapped in poop and left burning at your door step. Nobody wants it now or even cares any more.
That hardly works as an explanation. Luke and Leia were the children of The Chosen One, but they weren't immediately born with great Force power like him, they still had to work for it.
This is actually a very well thought out and in-depth examination of this topic. Awesome job; can’t wait to see how you’ll tie it all together with your third video on the subject.
I think it be cool to get some of the biggest star wars youtubers to make a documentary about their veiws on star wars, like sw only, hello greedo, sw theory, and thor himself
To be honest, an easy fix for Rey's character (that wouldn't have made her Luke's daughter or Obi-Wan's descendant) is to have Rey have been a clone made by Palpatine while he was trying to create a new vessel for his spirit (sort of taking elements from Dark Empire comics and the original Thrown trilogy). But something happens (like one of the clone makers, Palpatine's assistants, etc grows a heart) and Rey is whisked away for her own safety (and she thinks this person or people are her parents). But then she is left behind by her 'parents' because they have been tracked by Palpatine's agents and they leave to keep her safe. That would have explained her insane level of Force abilities with very little training, though for conflict, I would have also thrown in that she becomes frightened of her powers because seemingly each time she uses them, someone gets hurt and her main arc throughout the trilogy is learning to accept and control her powers.
Hate to say it, but this sort of thing is exactly what Thor is talking about when he says the more complex the theory, the less likely it is to happen...The average audience (and critic's) eyes would have glazed over before your first paragraph was onscreen!
I remember before The force awakes came out I was so excited. The scene in the trailer when Rey was inside the crashed ISD was mind blowing and it felt like Star Wars was truly coming back. I was perfectly fine with a female lead character, I just wish she'd actually been a character and not a JJ mystery box.
1. Can fly the Falcon better than Han 2. Can fix the Falcon better than Han 3. Can do Jedi mind tricks like Obi Wan with no training 4. Defeated and almost killed a trained sith with no training 5. Saved a trained Sith who was overwhelmed in the throne room 6. Shot down three tie fighters with one shot 7. Moved a small mountains worth of boulders 8. Can levitate in the air with rocks circling like Aang from avatar 9. Can bring a ship back down to earth using the force 10. Random force lightning 11. Can sail a ship like an expert, even though she grew up on a DESERT planet 12. Ultimately, defeats Palps which apparently NO one was able to accomplish including Anakin 13. She even takes BB-8 from Poe, even though that makes zero sense. 14. She is also somehow a better pilot than Poe, even though Disney said he is one of, if not the best pilot. MaRey Sue and Holdo broke Star Wars. Thanks JJ, KK, and RJ !!!
15) Totaly master of fighting on wet slippery stones. even though she grew up on a DESERT planet, but Luke slip on his own bakyard there he have lived for years? 16) Can dodge a exploding lightsaber then Kylo is beaten unconscious by the same explotion.
TFA - TRoS is maybe 12 months? That means Rey went from scavenger on Jakku to defeating Palpatine in about a year. Yoda, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar all Jedi Masters and very powerful couldn't beat Palpatine. Hell 3 of them died in seconds! Rey beats him after a year of knowing about the force 🤢
I think again with this part you have hit the nail on the head for the turning point and a lot of this was access media vs fans. For me Rey was always a Mary Sue to start off with as she had nothing she could not overcome with no effort and even fought and beat the big bad evil guy with her no training and his training. But the one thing i would say Rey had on her side was people still wanted to know her story, they had accepted that disney played too safe with the first movie(almost re-writing a new hope/star wars) the talk was still on going years after so all she needed was a on screen justification for how she was so powerful. Maybe in addition something to show her being humbled a bit like maybe luke showing her she got very lucky because kylo had underestimated her and she got a critical blow in due to this which should not have happened. The explanation of her raw power level (which from most of the thoery's did not require her to be a skywalker) and something to reset the threat level of Kylo Ren, most liking though teaching from Luke was all the needed progression for the story to move forward and keep the story unique, as a matter of fact you could have set up a reveal by luke at the start with the big bad evil guy (Kylo, snoke or palpatine assuming he was really discussed that early which i doubt very much) revealing a different lineage which then means she has to face the final chapter with doubts and although she has now been trained her ability to focus enough is now brought into question. Instead she again faces no challenge she cannot overcome and even managed to teach herself an entirely new style of weapon fighting (from staff fighting to single sword fighting) which have very different ways of applying to combat and again nothing like a flashback showing this was how she pretended to fight as a kid or something to demonstrate why. And sadly in episode 9 her story got no further developed due to jj seeming to have a massive checklist of things he needed to happen in the movie which shot the pace of it to ruins. And so the only explanation for Rey's powers was a very poor on screen explanation a quick training sequence with Liea which was more assault course than force training (at least to my mind/eyes) and nothing else which sadly left Rey a Mary Sue. Her character had a lot of potential as did so many others in the trio of movies but was not used or developed well as was also true with so many others, but no others at her power level.
Her Marysueness in TFA could have been excusable if the rest of her story was good, unfortunately it wasn't. A good example of a GOOD star wars sequel story is uniquenameosorus' rewrite.
I always hoped it would be revealed that she actually was trained from a young age, but something happened causing her to lose her memory and get stranded on Jakku. Unfortunately the only explanation they gave eventually is just "she's a palpatine", which isn't by far sufficient. Even Palpatine was trained by a sith master.
She isnt that much of a mary sue Tho. She only beats kylo cause of him being shot by a bow caster and visibly bleeding out of the wound, as well as him not being in the best emotional state or veryfocused. She isnt a great characte, but she isnt that much of a mary sue.
Yeah really! imagine getting a role to one of the biggest franchises ever. She was so excited as was everyone else. And then getting so much hate for trying your best at acting and portraying a character. 😔
People can't see past the horror the new star wars has brought over and will see the actor/actress and the character as the same entity. She had nothing to do with the movie or how bad her character was, just was dealt a bad hand. People of both sides, for and against the new star wars has gone after her. Hell after the 9th movie came out butt hurt Reylo shippers attacked Reys and Kylos actor/actress just because their ship never happened or at least not to the extent they had in mind. Like it or not Daisy's picture has been tainted by these movies and some people will never forgive her even tho she did nothing wrong. It's honestly sad, I just hope the heat will die down eventually if it hasn't done so already.
@@emberfist8347 not only that, but they needed saving. Anakin was saved from Maul by Qui Gonn, Luke was saved multiple times by Ben. Rey on the other hand saved herself from captivity.
@@austinjohnsen4430yeah but I always looked at that as a combination of chosen one extreme force sensitivity and his gifted pioleting. While the force is kinda bs sometimes anakins extremely good pioleting skills were pretty well established across all the movies which is one the thing he never struggled with, so him blowing up the ship never bothered me to much
Golden Class The whole thing is almost played off as a joke with the whole spinning is a good trick bit, and him going oops when he accidentally destroys the reactor.
Lionard Kirsch People like to justify Rey’s skills by pointing out that she learned them while growing up on Jakku. This of course raises the question of HOW did she learn these skills. Surely she didn’t just learn them all by herself. Because if she did, then that just makes her even more of a Mary Sue.
I'd like to compliment you - not only have you always been a very calm, moderate voice in all your criticisms of the Disney trilogy (which I still think is important if we're all to ever get out of this culture war hell) but this is actually very important work which highlights the truth behind the misinformation that has been spun SINCE Ep.8. Thank you!
First one needs to go to the core of the problem with the triology itself the writing. It starts at the very head of Lucas film KK. I understand her wanting to give as many legs up to women as she could once she took over. Example she bragged that her writing team consisted of seven writers five of whom were female. That is fine with me just as long as they all understand the mythos of SW and apparently they didn't. Rey reminds me not of a movie character but that of a play station game character who find all the people and things she needs in a choreographed fashion. To answer your question if Rey is a modern definition of a Mary Sue the answer Is yes. Rey is the antithesis of Iconic. Iconic implies a person who overcomes the challenges in their lives and often times fail as well. Rey never did any of those things. Example How did she obtain a lightsaber? The game I'm sorry the story gives her one. Not just any old lightsaber Luke's lightsaber. How convenient. Second she goes to confront Snoke fors she win ? Absolutely not Kylo kills her. Also JJA and RJ were the absolute worst choices for these movies. You needed true story tellers not magic boxes, your mama jokes, a car chase that lasts an entire movie and the reappearance of a dead iconic character to try and save your butt. Rey a nobody Finn a janitor Poe a fumbling idiot unless in a plane. Luke a washed up alcoholic drug user hiding from reality Leia Mary Poppins Han deadbeat dad Chewie completely lost C3pO useless R2D2 no existent. Thank you KK JJA and RJ thank you for nothing but identity politics and a special need to try and include everyone in the alphabet that did nothing to tell a coherent triology.
You are spot on with your analysis, Thor. I listen to Professor Geek (who's a professor of mythology) and he says that a certain group of people sees characters as symbols and not characters in and of itself. They then do not want to see the character go through trials and tribulations (which usually leads to character development), as they will see that as an affront to the symbol that must be "protect at all costs". As a result, these characters are static and perfect. Some that are not perfect will have "endearing" weaknesses (namely, naivety).
Wow, that explanation starting at 6:50 sounds amazing and ties the whole saga together, having high potential for a good story and strong ending to the 40-year-old series, from which we could then, afterward, move forward with non-Skywalker stories!
I remember when I first heard of it, it was labeled for characters that were considered perfect. Or not even perfect but received something that others didn't because... reasons...
I remember having no problems with Rey in Force Awakens; people made way too much of Rey defeating Kylo in a duel, hommie just got cratered by Chewie with a lazbolt to the gut.
Rey had never picked up a lightsaber before this, she picks one up and beats someone who was trained by one of the most powerful Jedi of all time(Luke). It’s impossible to justify
H i Was Luke on of the most powerful Jedi of all time? I just thought he was the person who helped Anakin redeem himself and that ultimately Anakin as the chosen one was the “most powerful Jedi”. Another question is, are lightsabers purely force weapons or for all intents and purposes a lazer sword? I mean if Charlemagne was given a lightsaber, wouldn’t he still be as proficient with it as if it was a steel sword? If so, it wouldn’t matter that she’d never held a lightsaber before if she had weapons training
Shawn Wood The blade length of a sword but the weight of a dagger sounds like a boon to most sword users? I concede the pain thing though, only counterpoint would be that Kylo is a phoney sith haha
@@MurdocIsASaint yes luke was, in legends he had the potential of the chosen one and he achieved that power. Another thing is that Rey isn't knowledgeable enough in the force to create a force wall. All Kylo needed to do was knock her out again with a force push, stasis, or force choke.
Now I see some symbolisms here, perhaps, just perhaps what if Rey = Kathleen Kennedy and Palpatine = George Lucas. Kennedy seriously destroyed Lucas' empire.
I really love Rey. I wanted her to be a nobody. But I read an interview with Daisy Ridley and she said that J.J. told her that Rey was a nobody. Also J.J. said that he wanted her to be a nobody. He obviously saw all the critics and changed her story (bad idea).
Yeah, what a great role model she is: you got a problem, then scream at him (cause your problem is always male) until he disintegrates... people expect me not to laugh at this?
The main problem with the term “Mary Sue” nowadays is that both sides aren’t using the same definition. The media is using it as a sexist term whilst the fans are using it to complain about a character. Another problem with this whole thing is that it’s really easy to get clicks when you want somebody to hate something. I personally don’t think that it’s a sexist term and I complain about Mary Sues of any gender.
A character is not strong by doing cool things but by confronting their flaws and fears and experiencing pain but not letting it to devalue you but to develop you. Ahsoka,mara jade,bastila shan,leia and jaina solo are great examples of that.
I was actually looking for to seeing Rey but the minute she got into the Falcon I knew she was a Mary Sue. The entire Disney trilogy is absolute SJW propaganda! There's no hope for Star Wars as long as Katherine Kennedy is still in a job.
As a female I can totally and 100% see the problem with Rey. She simply has no flaws. Even when she “died” at the end of ROS I was just sitting there like I she isn’t really dead. I never felt any danger for her. We were scared for Luke when he went against Vader and we felt sorry for Anakin. Nothing for Rey
I mean... The Star Wars fandom was pretty toxic even before the sequels, it just didn't got so much attention. (I'm not talking about not liking the sequels, I'm talking about being shitty to other people.) The fans basically bullied George Lucas into selling the whole thing.
The first time I heard the term Mary Sue used to describe Rey, I knew exactly what it meant despite never hearing it before. Its perfect to describe her
7:46 Made sense?! Firstly how the f*** would have Luke lost her and not been able to find her? Secondly the lightsaber would still need an explanation for how it got there and you are still meant to bond with your own kyber crystal. Thirdly her bloodline doesn't work as an explanation as Luke was the son of the chosen one and he still had to train and learn from experience. Fourthly I don't think she would've been old enough to receive any training let alone remember any of it. The fact is she had to come from nowhere, all the fan theories didn't make any logical sense and where really just the fans in denial over how there was never going to be a logical explanation for Rey's power thanks to JJ. At best this theory would have mitigated the damage, not fixed it.
With Rey, they should've capitalised on the 'these are your first steps' in 7 and made her a descendant of Obi Wan. Explains her great power in the force? Check. Gives her some sort of meaningful link to the pre existing characters? Check. Milking money from nostalgia for an eventual Skywalker-Kenobi 'reunion' with Kylo? Check. Is it the most creative idea? F*ck No but order of magnitude more coherent than what we got.
I remember after this movie that the dude behind SW Theory made several clips about Snoke's golden slippers and the ring from Mustafar. That made me resilient to fan theories that had little basic in anything
An important part of "Mary Sue" that people have forgotten is tied into its use as a fan fiction origins: It's a NEW character, *added to an already ongoing story*, who upstages previously established characters at their own specialties. This is why original characters who start their own franchises, such as Batman or Wonder Woman, are not really MS, no matter HOW powerful or skilled they are...because it's THEIR story. An example of a potential MS done well, is Saavik in Star Trek II (ironically, the very franchise that brought us the term): She's an interesting new character, with a uniquely special background, but she fits appropriately into the story, and *doesn't* steal the show in any way; in the same movie were made today, it would bend over backwards to impress us with how awesome she is, by having her out-logic Spock and save the ship...just like the original Mary Sue!
10:29 these points are terrible. Luke: 1. is mentioned multiple times in the movie to be a good pilot and his t16 is a model used to train x wing pilots as the controls are similar and they are made by the same company. 2. Ben reaches out to him, not the other way around. Also this ignores all the lore around force ghosts. 3. That is a straight up lie, you can clearly see Luke with a blaster rifle in the sandpeople scene and the stormtroopers were ordered to let them escape. Anakin: I agree that the phantom menace version is a Garry stu, but the podracing one isn't valid as he isn't a non-force sensitive human and basic precognition is literally the easiest force power to learn as seen in A New Hope Rey: 2. And then escapes all on her own by using a force power that can take months even years to learn. 3. She killed 3 in the forest and then a few more inside the thermal oscillator. 4. Kylo was still strong enough to fight her and Finn, this is literally her first time wielding a lightsaber and no her improvised skill with a staff does not translate over, Kylo Ren has years of training and experience under Luke and Snoke, he is very strong with the force due to his bloodline, and lastly Rey can't conjure a force wall so all he had to do was incapacitate her instantly using the force (which he did but then didn't do to Finn as well for whatever reason)
By the end of TFA, the character fits the description of a Mary Sue. They had two movies to prove otherwise, yet she ended TROS exactly as she first appeared. Just with a load of stuff she nicked along the way.
I actually have my theory as to why Rey inexplicably knows how to do these things and it's because originally we we're suppose to be shown her early on flying the Millenium Falcon and her training with Luke. From what I've heard early concept work showed Rey flying the Millenium Falcon in search of the Luke Skywalker map which establishes her knowledge of flying the Flacon. For some reason they cut this out, my guess is to have the Tantive IV moment with Poe and BB-8, but still wanted the moment where she flies the Falcon like an expert. So from what I can gather about the early Lucas outlines and from what Michael Arndt even had planned according to his own words in a 2016 EW Interview with the writers of TFA Luke Skywalker was originally set to appear much earlier in The Force Awakens. Paraphrasing here, but Michael Arndt described it as Rey having her home destroyed, she finds Luke Skywalker and then kicks the bad guys ass. The issue they had was Luke kept taking the limelight from the other characters especially the main character Rey and so they eventually wrote him more, or less out of the movie. I think what happened is they ran out of time to write the movie. Michael Arndt left less than six months before photography do to script writing issues and J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan were still writing it well into photography. They wanted Rey to kick the bad guys ass and show off how awesome she was, but they didn't have enough time to write a more suitable scenario. So her flying the Falcon and having inexplicable knowledge of Force abilities and skill was a relic of an earlier script. I also have a feeling one reason Rey is so powerful is either it's because she's the fan insert, and/or that it was an attempt to keep her from being outshined by Luke Skywalker. I also recently found a video by a little known RUclipsr named DonLasagna and he makes a really interesting point about how Rey has her own sort of story arc in TFA, but it makes no sense because it's her story arc in Luke Skywalker's story and my running theory is that it's another relic of the early scripts based of George Lucas's outlines. Because they decided to make TFA more like A New Hope, but retain Rey's original character arc you end up with this mismatch of story and character.
I think they set out to explicitly make Rey an icon without having any of the writing or character development to justify it and it makes me sad because I truly from the deepest pit of my soul wanted to like Rey. I was still fine with her after TFA but the films after that truly made me understand why people were upset.
On a side note, I feel really bad for Daisy Ridley. Imagine landing the role of a lifetime - main character in a Star Wars trilogy! - and then having to work with that.
"Rey is the first female hero"
Leia : i exist
Leia: am I a joke to you?
ahsoka: excuse me?
@Jynx97 oh yeah apparently she is :/
My the force be with you, Princess Leia, always!
I like it how they ignore her, look you want a badass female character? She literally takes down 1-2 stormtroopers then starts talking down to Vader all in the first time we see her. That's a strong female character.
I don't know why they thought Rey could be a role model for girls. If she never struggles, what is there to relate to or even empathize with?
When we watched Luke, we cheered for him. When we watched Anakin, we felt sorry for him. There isn't much we can feel about Rey.
I found myself cheering more for Jaina Solo in the Legacy of the Force series than Rey.
Agreed. Ahsoka or Padme or Leia would be better examples. Even though two of them come from royalty, they have individual challenges they have to overcome and aren't perfect. Same with Ahsoka. They all make mistakes or make decisions that some see as controversial, and have to struggle to succeed.
@@fazepapasito8166 #1 Why would she be able to bring back luke or redeem Kylo? she has no connection to either at that point
#2 She gets her ass kicked in the last movie after dunking on that same character two movies in a row? that seems more like Kylo is the traditional protag there :)
I also liked the story arc of Mara Jade in the EU, as she was someone that had to struggle to overcome her past demons and learn to accept that there was a better way to go forward. Her story is one that perhaps everyone can at some level relate to.
Jaina is awesome, even in legacy of the force I loved her
Miguel Trujillo Mara is probably my favorite mom in all of fiction honestly
She was still basically the same character at the end of the trilogy that she was at the beginning of it. You can't say that about Anakin or Luke at the end of their respective trilogies. The only real difference is that she now knows how to use the Force, and is no longer 'alone' in the galaxy.
What I got from the sequels, was that Rey wasn’t really supposed to develop but rather help others to. She was the driver for the character arcs of Luke, Finn, and Ben. Ideally, they would have planned the story better to make her a little more interesting, but as someone who has seen characters like Rey in other media, I don’t really have a problem.
@@turkeydinnerchewie2499 How is having a main character that experiences no growth good writing?
turkeydinnerchewie you think they were going for the flat archetype , because flat characters still go through challenges throughout their stories and if you want to show Rey like a flat character affect others surrounding her, try actually showing it, during FA she was with a small amount of characters, the resistance never saw her succeed at beating Kylo Ren. They only heard about her victory. Same for TLJ, where while everyone is struggling she just come in at the end and save the day. That’s the first time the remainder of the resistance actually sees her doing something. In ANH Luke got to meet and connect with his fellow soldiers and fight along side them to destroy the Death Star. He didn’t just spend his time with Obi wan ,Han, Leia, Chewbacca C3PO, and R2D2.
Everyone respected and looked up to Luke because they got to see him once or twice throughout all three films fighting for the rebellion weather it was the battle of Yavin, Hoth, or Endor. The Resistance only sees their only Hope fight twice, the battle of scariff and the final battle during Ros. If Rey was supposed to be a flat character she was written badly as one, plus even flat characters are written to be relatable in some ways, Like Goku, Obi Wan, Indiana Jones, etc. (I know Obi Wan went through some small changes but his core values stayed the same which makes him a flat character as well in my book.)
@@turkeydinnerchewie2499 see that alone could be interesting for example Girono Giovana is a fairly static character and is a support to the group and is the protagonist so idk why Disney couldn't do that if that was the intent
Infinity Nexus Reviews Rey isn’t the main character. They didn’t even make toys for her. Finn was the main character of TFA if there was one. What was Leias development in the OT? Oh yeah, being a strong leader who becomes Luke’s sister for no reason.
-What is your name?
-Rey!
-Rey who?
-Ma Rey Suuuueeeee!
Haha funny :)
Muh Rey Sue
Reyd Shadow Legends, the most ambitious RPG project of blah blah blah!
@@MrDrProfessor4 Reydy Shady
@@francescolombardi3438 I.E. Kathleen Kennedy's self-insert. Rey is how she sees herself, the bitch. XD
Anyone else notice that since writers focused on writing strong Female characters instead of just good characters who happen to be female they have been, less than stellar.
Funng thing is, this is far from new. As soon as expanded media started coming out, one of the FIRST things the writers do is fill it up with cool, interesting, badass females...of course, since the media and casual fans don't consume any of that, and only watch the movies, they are left with the misapprehension that SW is sexist because there are only a couple of girls in it. The real difference, I think, is the lack of quality control since Lucas left...
Today you cant show a woman being venerable, emotional or having any flaws. They can't just be good they need to be better than everyone else. Every fight Rey had she won, can't have a woman lose against a man. A experenced female fighter could beat an experienced male fighter, but an inexperienced female fighter couldn't.
Because they’re trying to be like Viktor Frankenstein, piecing together qualities and attributes that they think make for a strong female character. Stop trying to be Frankenstein and be more like Mary Shelley. I mean, all they have to do is watch Aliens. You have three strong female characters in that movie. Four strong female characters in Avatar. Did they not do any research?
@@stue2298 One exception to that would be the women on "The Orville". They are strong but are also vulnerable and have emotions and flaws. And, people like these characters. Go figure.
@@gastronomist the sad state of affairs is that a parody show like the orville is more true to form. Than the new shows they put out...
From now on, when I see a Mary Sue in media I'm gonna say:
"Dude that character is such a Rey."
Anyone now pretty much
I'd say: "She's the Rey for...(insert story)" or "She's the new Rey"
As for male characters, I just go with Gary Stu.
@Lionard Kirsch *this*
I use maRey sue
What about Pucca? *Now your childhood is ruined.*
Rey had huge potential but it was wasted by poor storytelling and a lack of an overall narrative plan.
I love Ahsoka, I love Sabine, I love Hera, Carasynthia Dune was pretty badass, what now, SJWs?
AntonymicallyCorrect and there are many more that are amazing, especially in legends.
Lionard Kirsch can I ask why? I like her character a good amount but I know some dislike her and want to figure out why
that's the thing, these people never cared for feminist icons in SW, they never cared until they had this Main Film character in a big franchise to tick their box
@@meetra5073 one thing I found annoying about Sabine is kinda summed up with "by this point, it wouldn't surprise me if she was force sensitive" - I liked her okay, but not up there
It’s proof that SJW’s can barely tell good stories. Especially with grand franchises like STAR WARS.
In all honesty, the only negative feelings I have for this character are of disappointment. I don’t hate her, I just hate the way she was handled. Rey could’ve been a great addition to the universe, but she just has such a distorted background-she was created because of feminism and remained a blank piece of paper because of it. I just hate how the writers of the sequel trilogy wasted her character.
Bro same, such potential, wasted .
.....How they wasted a character, a trilogy, a franchise, 4 billions dollars and a lot more....
I don't know that the character was created to appease feminists, though it's clear that she ended up doing so. The character doesn't particularly even act in any way that could be considered feminist...to do so, they'd have had to actually write in more personality than they did.
@AlphaStorm7652 Their attempts at fixing the movies are always killing off the new characters and making the Sequels be all about the OT cast again. That's garbage.
"Rey could’ve been a great addition to the universe"
No, the OT fans made it clear they didn't want new characters who weren't useless idiot sidekicks to the old cast. Rey never stood a chance.
She's just a bland, uncharismatic, uninteresting character. She doesn't have any personality traits at all.
Rey was such a mary sue. they wanted to make her everything. she was herself with a staff, but with an xwing helmet. she is a great pilot. then solo gave her a gun. so stick and gun and bb8 who belongs to poe. then she gets the falcon. an expert at it. she gets lukes saber. never gives up the staff or the gun. so she has all weapons. she gets the xwing and the skywalker name too. she is luke han and leia and lightning from palpatine! she is starwars! lol they pushed to much. I was intrigued with her as a scavenger with a staff. i actually though the staff would have a light saber combo down the road. a clone idea wouldve been great to connect the trilogies, and fin wielding a lightsaber together with her. but have to accept what we got and forget this trilogy and focus more on the past pre maRey sue.
Do the tpm characters have character traits but rey has
If u use ur brains Anakin is also a Mary sue he blew up a whole separatist base as a joke at age 9
Qui gone gin did not have any flaws
@@kingofmysoregaming4602 I recall Anakin accidentally blowing up the Separatist base at age 9 was also poorly received. At least, I know I hated it. As I remember it, Anakin was in general poorly received. No one called the character a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu because those terms weren't in the general lexicon.
The most unfortunate aspect of this is that Jake Lloyd ended on the receiving end of a lot of negative attention. Shame when people can't separate the actor from the role they play. He was just a little kid reading the awful dialogue George Lucas gave him. What did they want from the little guy?
Mary Sue is gender neutral. Use Gary Stew if for male characters if you get your panties in a bunch. But what ever you call it, it is a poorly written character with inexplicable skill and power, has no significant flaws, and is instantly liked by everyone. Rey fits this description perfectly.
Agreed. When master yoda can lift only one boulder and she lifts a 100 there’s something wrong
@@AndreNitroX yeah I burst out laughing in TLJ where she lifts 100 boulders and her eyes expression was like "what? am I really the one who doing this" while Yoda had to focus lifts several rocks in AoTC
Ryan Gosling is a better name anyway
Agreed. Luke was the original Mary Sue.
At least Rey was fighting someone learning as well. Nothing in Star Wars is less believable than Luke besting Vader. Farm boy to beating the best pilot in galactic history with no training.
Add in Luke's leave it to beaver attitude and he's just as bad as Rey.
You're forgetting the most important part. They bend the rules of the universe around them. Characters can have some of these traits, maybe even all, but if it makes sense for the story and universe that was set up it isn't an issue. The issue is when they break the rules of the universe we've been told and it breaks suspension of disbelief. Had we set up Rey as a trained force user from the get go I don't think the accusation of Mary Sue would have popped up.
My suspension of disbelief wouldn't have been shattered when she did the Mindtrick and I wouldn't have had to hold my tongue from yelling BS in the theater because it would make sense how she knows to do it.
"Kennedy honoring George Lucas..." WRONG... WRONG... OH BOY WERE WE WRONG! 😂
Rey could force heal people
But obi wan couldn't heal qui gon
Force healing is stupid
Yoda couldnt heal padme
If Rey could heal Kylo Anakin should have been able to heal Padme and I I wan should have healed qui gon.
@Chaplain-of Faith Debatable on Legends
/cry
Rey is so much of an icon they forgot to give her character until it was too late.
How iconic.
you mean
*ironic
@@epsilon1372 No, she is Iconic. An Icon of terrible characters alongside Captain Marvel.
*Fans in 2015 seeing KK is rebooting star wars* :
Are you an angel?
*KK In 2020* :
YOU TURNED THEM AGAINST ME!
*Fans* :
You have done that yourself.
KK=Krusty Krab
Fans: Kathleen! The sequel trilogy is evil!
KK: from my point of view, the fans are evil!
F: well then you are lost
The main reason I'd say Rey is not exactly a Mary Sue: Mary Sues are written by fans. No one involved in this trilogy was a Star Wars fan.
Blake Tyson The way I understand, a Mary Sue is a character a fan writer uses to integrate themselves into the story that is basically perfect in every way.
What other characters are there that are commonly referred to as Mary Sues that aren't that?
Pretty sure it was the by-product of Kathleen Kennedy and Katie McGrath (J.J. Abrams’ wife).
@@Babyboss65 Mary Sue was originally a characature of bad fanfiction characters, but it's evolved into a sort of "catch-all" term for fictional characters who are inexplicably perfect and flawless, author self insert or not.
@@Babyboss65 "a Mary Sue is a character a fan writer uses to integrate themselves into the story "
A Mary Sue is a character with a rather well defined set of attributes.
The reason for a Mary Sue to exist is very often, but not always, the mentioned self insertion. It CAN be argued that Rey is the self insert of Kathleen Kennedy.
@@Babyboss65 that was its origins but since then it has expanded to included professional made overpowered characters.
Unfortunately my research has made me only realize how much she's just a composite Frankenstein character made of pieces of Jaina and Ania Solo's stories without the WHY (the heart) of those stories. It's just a tragedy and a shame because I used to DEFEND TFA by saying "the rest of the trilogy will fix things."
I felt the same way until we got TLJ and Bob Iger released his book. Now, Disney can piss off.
That's basically what everyone, no matter thier thoughts on TFA thought.
Don't forget possible bits of Bastila Shan from _Knights of the Old Republic_ .
I knew the Force Awaken was shit the moment she was able to angle the Falcon into a position so that Finn could shoot down a Tie Fighter But I still had hope for the movie. Because I felt the villain Kylo Ren could save it from the bullshit that was going on with Rey. But when Kylo Lost to Rey easily That destroyed all of my hope for the sequel Trilogy I was done! I knew this was going to be a feminist propaganda movie and Disney Star Wars would never get a penny of my money. I take that back I saw Rogue One So Disney Star Wars did get some more of my money, but that was the last one I gave a watched
Same. Oh how naive we were thinking they'd actually PLANNED this trilogy. I mean, thinking things through, who does that? Oh, wait, GOOD STORY TELLERS!
I'd say she's both. She's a Mary Sue, and an icon on the division of the Star Wars fandom as a whole.
Wrong Leia and Ashoka are icons not Rey
@@caliente2512 Because they're secondaries, not leads.
No flaws. No failures. Not one. Every great character has flaws or makes mistakes they learn from, male or female. She’s a Mary Sue.
Yeah she is a Mary Sue but really they could have showed us more training scenes and actual development in TLJ, even TFA has her be stronger than kylo with no training so she definitely is a Mary Sue.
@@marlbartony1621 Some goal for her should have also been nice. I don't understand why she does what she does. Only thing she wants, is to get her parents back...at age 30'ish.
Marlbartony for me, TLJ *almost* gave her some development with her parents being revealed to be “nobody”. It wasn’t really a flaw, and the reveal isn’t the result of any failure of her actions, but at least it touched on something important to her ‘character’: her dependence of finding her family.
also yeah, there should’ve been a scene or two of Luke giving her lightsaber training or something.
there’s no way u actually believe this
@@americancow9055 so u think her strength is perfectly fine and justified?
Finn would have made a better protagonist than Rey.
They could have dropped Rey altogether and focused on Finn as a defector who becomes a Jedi.
They ignored his PTSD.
They ignored his friendships with other storm troopers.
They ignored his possible relationship with Phasma (sp)
They ignored his childhood.
They ignored the possibility he might be force sensitive (given how he wielded light sabers).
Yea-- there was an entire movie there.
He had great promise.
@@macmcleod1188 I know, right? Kinda sad they ditched all that in favor of an over-powered Mary Sue.
Honestly, after Force Awakens I hoped we would get dualing protagonists with Rey and Finn. Rey could be taught by Luke while Finn got some Force instructions from Leia. Then when they meet up later, both can build off of what the other has learned. But nope, they just focus on one, give neither of them any interesting dynamics or character arcs to work with, and thus, both suck in the end.
@@macmcleod1188 Such a false advertisement, I remember seeing the posters of TFA exited to see Finn, and his story is the most compelling in TFA.
Then Disney decides to shut his character down because China hates a Black Main Character. (China is disney's biggest revenue)
I knew from the begining that Rey was supposed to be Lukes daughter. You just know JJ would have loved to make I am your cousin in the second movie. How original
That's what they were going for easily. I remember leaving the theater with my dad and brother and we all thought it
It would certainly have made sense to have each trilogy of the fucking Skywalker Saga fronted by a Skywalker.
i would have prefered her to be a kenobi
@@dakotasherman632 It was the ONLY thing that should have happened. This was meant to be a family saga. It is sad that we never got George Lucas' actual sequels. He had Kira Skywalker as the main young protagonist who was a student of Master Luke.
Like her or hate her she’s now the definitive icon of the Ultimate Mary Sue: Nobody is gonna be able to take that title away from her anytime soon.
Captain Marvel came close.
Michael Burnham is trying but she's kinda already killed the whole franchise of Star Trek so she probably won't even be remembered lol
@DaBomb8493 Anakin was challenged and needed help. The things he did were believable. Reys were not.
And they gave her a story reason for being a Mary Sue. In Rise of Skywalker it was because of Midichlorian manipulation by Sidious and her being the daughter of his Clone. Basically just born to be a vessel for Palpatine's evil Spirit. Which was destroying his clone body. A poor remake of Dark Empire.
Agreed, indeed, the term Mary Sue is no obsolete. Instead, the term a "Rey" will be used.
I gave her a chance for FA but then TLJ confirmed it for me she was a Mary Sue. TROS doesn’t change that view for me. It wouldn’t be that much of a issue but Rey isn’t even a interesting character so overall I wish her character never existed. They should have taken notes from characters like Padme, Leia and Ashoka.
"Rey could’ve been a great addition to the universe"
Secondaries?
Schlock Jocks they’re was much potential in the beginning however I sense that a lack of planning and forced gender politics ruined all that was the sequel trilogy 😔
@@kingxkai1179 "Forced gender politics" oh come on, that's conspiracy nonsense
Schlock Jocks You know that the head of Disney Star Wars Kathleen Kennedy hasn’t shy’d away from openly sharing her political stances. And on multiple occasions Disney writers and herself have mentioned inclusion of more female characters in Disney. Their intentions may be innocent sure however when we get characters as bad as *Rey Palpatine* and are criticize for not liking them it’s not hard to see why fans like myself think theres bad political messaging being forced into Star Wars
@@kingxkai1179 Star Wars was always political, Lucas injected HIS politics into the series!
As for "Rey Palpatine", that's no worse than Vader being Luke's father. If the internet has been around back then fans would be complaining just as much about that!
If Rey isn't THE textbook definition of a Mary Sue then I don't know who else could be.
Rey is iconic for NOT being a good female character
So, she's infamous, right?
Also, I think Rey's personality is pretty bland. She's just a good girl because has to be.
Exactly luke was a good boy too but he had turmoil he had development he had a visible dark side to him
@@AndreNitroX A lot easier to identify yourself with Luke than Rey - Luke was a teenager that was still not sure what he should do and a lot of people could recognize themselves in him. Rey was OK in the beginning of The Force Awakens but there wasn't much of a personality to the character or her background.
AndreNitro X1000 I mean... I wouldn’t say Rey has no dark side exactly, but it’s definitely much less prominent than Luke’s, more just simmering self-doubt
@@gamedifficulty_4230 Plus what even motivated Rey to be good? Luke's aunt and uncle who raised him were murdered by the Empire, and he had a connection to the Jedi through his father and Obi Wan.
Rey is just an awful character period.
Rey isn't relatable on any level. She isn't even a character, she's a blatant archetype that never grows or develops, never shows personality, and is never interesting. What's worse is that she is overpowered for no logical reason, is skillful at everything despite having no experience, has perfect morals despite having no motivation or path that lead her there, logic and the in universe laws just bend to her will, and she is just given everything without having to earn it. She isn't just a marry sue, she is THE marry sue.
Yoda in ROTS can't beat Sidious despite being Grandmaster of the Jedi Order.
Rey defeats Palpatine 12 months after holding a lightsaber for the first time.
Anakin was trained for years and still got smashed by Dooku!
>never develops
Looks like we watched the different star wars.
Also, Windu could kill Sidious if Anakin didn t interrupt. How about that?
@@Eki718 Sidious did clearly throw the fight when he holds his lightsaber right up to Mace's chest. I do however think he let his guard down by underestimating Mace's use of vaapad and was surprised when Windu disarmed him. However he was never truly in danger as he still had the force.
@@emberfist8347 I wonder why no one is bothered by Luke whoafter 1 year of training beat the force user WHO trained for decades by literally overpowering him and cutting his hand off.
How is Rey supposed to be an icon for anyone? Almost every conflict she faces, she wins with little to no effort on her part. What is that going to teach little girls? That all your problems will fall beneath you if you close your eyes?
Exactly
I mean she did fuck up in TROS.
Alex Chaudhari they decided to give her actual characterisation in the last movie of a trilogy. Also Palpatine's lightning was decimating a fleet and somehow it's no problem for rey
@@achaudhari101 Not really. None of the mistakes she makes has any real consequence. She accidentaly killed Chewie! Oh no she didn't. She killed Kylo Ren! Oh no she didn't. She fucking died! Oh no she didn't. See what I mean?
@@generalkenobi3909 all it took was 2 lightsabers. DAMN IT
Mace Windu could've saved the galaxy by picking an extra lightsaber off the dead masters
Rey is at best a footnote of Star Wars.
She is in fact a Mary Sue
how is she a Mary Sue
How is Luke not a Mary Sue?
Apocalyptic Signs how about losing a lot? Having to actually train? LOSING A DAMN HAND!
Speedysparrow55 she literally never makes a mistake, she wins every fight, and is completely infallible
Her powers in TFA were perfectly explainable.She was given super feminism powers by Darth Kathleen Kennedy.
Fun fact: the idea of a female jedi was made by Kennedy, but the actual character of Rey was created by Lawrence Kasdan (co-writer of ESB and RotJ), J.J. Abrams, and Michael Arndt. I found it hard to believe myself. Source: www.wga.org/writers-room/features-columns/the-craft/2015/star-wars-the-force-awakens-kasdan-abrams-arndt
Oh grow up you crybaby, you don't see people whining this much about Wonder Woman.
Rey did not know anything about the Force until episode 7 and considered it a myth. Since childhood, she lives on Dzhaku, drives only the speeder, collects trash and immediately sells. Swing a pipe with a sword has nothing to do, because the sword has no weight. All.
And suddenly she: 1) a mega-pilot who can jewelryly guide an unfamiliar ship through the ruins.
Who taught her? Huckster who does not give money? Or other homeless people?
2) The sniper, who, for the first time picking up a gun, shot the attack aircraft from 50 meters.
3) The Jedi, the victorious Sith, who by force stops shots, cuts down, paralyzes, reads thoughts, strangles.
Kylo grabbed her, put her in a chair ... and she raises Bond, although she does not even know about the deception of the Force. The whole workout.
4) She knows the language of Wookiees (where from?) And droids (people cannot make out their morse code at all).
5) Episode 8 goes immediately after 7. Luke does not train her, she only watches from afar how she waves her sword, like a club. And then she defeats him. Hmm ..
6) Yoda says: There is nothing in your books that she did not know. Well, that is, you are a sucker, and she is a goddess.
7) Defeats almost all the guards and saves Kylo.
8) Raises multi-ton debris without tension and blows three tyfayters out of the gun.
9) 9 episode. Levitates with a blissful expression (without straining). I can trample a cigarette in the gym too.
10) Reflects Palpatine's lightning with which he demolishes ships. Even Anakin, being a Padawan, could not immediately repel Dooku's lightning.
11) Immediately a bunch of superpowers: teleportation, healing, shooting down ships, a yellow sword literally from nowhere.
@Lionard Kirsch Did Leia know about flying, healing, lighting or teleportation, if she just got a base course from young Luke? And hold on one place flying spaceship which is pulling by another strong forceuser...I thought Starkiller was Sue, but this...
@Lionard Kirsch Her personality was "Naive woman child" and the in universe reasoning for her powers was the same as Rey's.
I may sound rey-cist but there is a old saying: You can take the "Rey" out of Ma-Rey Sue but you can never take the Mary Sue out of Rey.
Ma-Rey Sue...
Rey-cist
Disney did it cause of the name with a political egenda
Stop
You're going to make me die of laughter
I think you're confusing racism and sexism.
@@gabrielr.4110 I think you are confusing bad fanfic-level writing with either. Rey-cism is why we got those sequels.
Genius! xD
To everyone out there i'm just gonna say this Rey is a icon she it the icon of mary sue she is Marey Sue
You mean maRey Sue right
Maaaa Rey suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
But, wasn't the first Mary Sue literally named Mary Sue? Thor just stated it in the video, so shouldn't she be the icon for Mary Sues? But I suppose that no one reads or cares about old Star Trek fan fictions in this day and age, so yes. Rey is the new and eternal icon of Mary Sue. MA-REY SUUUUUUUUEEEEEE.
@@zjungta to be fair to Mary Sue she was only parody maRey Sue is the perfect example and thus can be the true icon
@@loganfournier8852 love it when e;r says that
Rey is the definition of a Mary Sue. Even if we only use this example: She told Han how she fixed the Falcon....his ship for decades, after she was in it for, what, an hour? She can do everything, at any time, with no problems!
Also, on her first time flying the Falcon she was single-handedly doing acrobatics that rivaled anything that Solo and Chewie could do as a team.
What got me was when Han died. Who does Leia, the love of Han's life, hug? Chewie, Han's best friend for decades? No, the new character that she and Han barely knew. Everything and everybody only mattered in relation to Rey.
they showed Finn being the Jedi in the promotional material. Hell, they even showed him wielding a lightsaber in the posters but no Rey's the Jedi somehow
Someone should've sued Disney for false advertising.
Honestly - it just seems to me to be that JJ Abrams from the beginning wanted Rey to be a Skywalker. He likely told Daisy this during the filming of the first movie. But since the second basically became an ego-project of subverting expectations, movie three had to salvage what it could. Rey went from (first movie) being a character who's abilities could be easily explained by prior training, legacy and having to fend for herself for most of her life, to - agreed - a mary sue.
To me that feels like the biggest punch in the gut about this trilogy. The first movie to me had potential still - I found Finn and Poe likable, and Rey to me had the potential to be good. Had to second, and subsequently, the third, movie continued along the same path that (it seems to me) JJ Abrams wanted, then it could have been a fine trilogy. But instead it just kind of turned into a shitshow because Johnson wanted to make his typical rule-breaking subversion movies, rather than dealing with the genre and universe that the movie was already set in.
I seriously think that Rey being Luke's daughter would have been incredibly cheap.
I agree 100%. Literally everything about the TFA pointed to Rey being Luke's daughter.
Personally I thought TFA low key was tying Rey to both the Skywalker and Palpatine bloodlines.
Couldn't agree more! How anyone allowed such an insanely expensive brand to be 'managed' without looking over any overarching story framework for the trilogy seriously boggles my mind.
@@edpistemic I blame Kathleen Kennedy. My theory based on all the evidence is that initially Abrams was hired to do the entire trilogy. Which would explain him writing treatments for the entire trilogy. But KK wanted too much creative control so she could push her feminist agenda. Ultimately somewhere in the process JJ and KK had some major disagreement/s and so she decided to limit Abrams to just episode 7. They agreed for appearances it would be best to have it seem like JJ wasn't interested in doing the entire trilogy(which in hindsight makes no sense considering he came back for episode 9). So Kennedy was forced to find a writer/director who would take on the project short notice(which is evident by the fact that Johnson wasn't around from the beginning) and be willing to give her the film she wanted. So she made a deal with Johnson that he could do whatever with the story so long as his script aligned with her feminist views. And the rest was history...
@@thaThRONe Do you know what? That all sounds bloody plausible to me! That's my head-canon going forward (along with the fact that the Disney films never happened in the SW universe, of course!)
The only good thing about the Rey character is Daisy Ridley. That's it.
And her baseball swing. Did you see her in TLJ.
Agreed. She played the role fine, it's just that the role was written terribly. Hope she goes on to better movies following this.
I never liked her politics she claimed calling ray a mary sue was sexist
and whats good about her? her typical celebrity smug, her priviledged background or the fact she didnt work a single acting job before taking on a lead role in fuckin Star Wars? or is t something else I missed?
David Cohen she actually had different acting roles in the past. She was the decoy queen in Phantom Menance
Wait, people think that "Mary Sue" has something to do with disliking women?
It's just like the Karen thing. Since most Karens are women (male Karens tend to me more the dangerously aggressive people), the Karens are like this is class-ist and sexist.
Same goes for Mary Sue.
Male Mary Sues would just be ignored and forgotten, but female characters live longer as women rarely are represented in media and are more attached to their sister on screen. Female Mary Sues stand out, hence mostly women are described, hence women say it's sexist.
@@trillionbones89 That's How MarySuefia Works
Yes, you see, “Strong Female Characters” don’t have to be strong characters. They don’t need to be well written or three dimensional or complex. They don’t need to grow. They are strong by virtue of being female and proclaimed feminist icons. Suggesting that they need to actually be a strong character is to suggest that simple being female is not enough to be amazing.
It’s the prepackaged response to valid criticism, otherwise know as redirection. It’s been happening ever since the first fan dared criticize MaRey Sue. And it hasn’t stopped since.
Jaden Korr right. ‘You are such a disgusting, bigoted individual that your criticisms can be completely ignored.’
It’s a tool in internet discussions and a demonstration of how ridiculous things can become when the parties are hiding behind a keyboard and a mouse, every disagreement eventually escalates to an accusation of or comparison to nazism.
History has proven with characters like Ripley, Sarah Connor, Michelle Yeow and Zhang Ziyi(Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), The Bride, and many more that no one has a problem with a “well written” female role.
Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi are actresses, not characters; but I do see your point.
Biggest example for Starwars- Ahsoka Tano - Most fans didnt like her at first, but now she is a fan favorite because we saw her growth thru trials, tribulations , traning and actual gorwing up.
Furiosa, Alita, Hanna, etc...
Selene from Underworld
@@koizumiizumi5426 It took years for fans to like her, years Rey didn't have.
I’m so over the characters, but I always rooted for the actors and wish them success far far away from the disaster that is Star Wars sequels
Thanks to the sequels I know what a Mary Sue is. At least there was something educational
I like Rey in TFA and figured whatever issues I had would be explained in future films.
This story really failed her because she could have become something everyone would have been ok with at least.
I didn't even like her in TFA.
Imagine if Rey was Luke's daughter and he had Han Solo watching over her (like Obi Wan did for him) because he knew Kylo could be turned back to the good side and he needed to make sure his daughter (Rey) needed to stay safe so he could finish her training in the future. She would be 10/10 and no complaints would be uttered about the sequel trilogy (except for maybe copying the original trilogy).
better to fully copy the O Trilogy instead of branching out into madness
Oh no, the problems of the ST are far beyond Rey alone
alienclay2 having Rey as the main character and not knowing how she fits into the story is a big problem. You put her into this story where Anakin Skywalker fell, Luke Skywalker redeemed him and Rey... Palpatine... becomes the ultimate Sith/Jedi by killing a clone of Sheev? Yes TLJ didn’t make any sense, but making Rey a mystery of TFA, then making her a nobody in TLJ then finally making her a somebody in RoS makes no sense what so ever. If they planned Rey to be Rey Skywalker the daughter of Luke from the beginning the 2 other movies would make 1000x more sense
You explain this with great great accuracy and in great detail. This is exactly what is needed for all sides of this controversy to gain understanding and reconcile and finally put this bickering behind us. Additionally, your presentation underscores the point that Lucas film & Disney need to work with the fans not against or in spite of the fans. Thank you so much.
The Force Awakens is not part seven of a larger story. Its a mediocre cash grab.
I M It was a great film - was happy as can be leaving the cinema and watched it three times. Was great, until the TLJ.
@@violator7964 or it at least had potential. I’d say it’s worse now that all that it built up to has been shit
Agreed. The Force Awakens isn't part of a larger story. It doesn't continue the story from ROTJ, let alone Episodes 1 to 6. And ultimately it is NOT George Lucas' story. Ergo it ruined the saga.
@@darkjediknight2923 "iTs nOt LuCaS's ViSiOn" yeah neither is basically all of legends but y'all suck that off. You can say a lot about the sequels but "Its not part of George Lucas' story isnt how you do it. Also innit TFA literally continues the story of the main characters of ROTJ? Theres a timeskip so some are off doing their own thing but they still continue to have a presence in the story if not appear for a extended time.
When Thor posts the poll for Rey's character... It's not gonna look good for her.
Agreed!
The Most Iconic Mary Sue, she can levitate herself and rocks in training but cannot do it when in danger in Quicksand
But Force Healing has broken the Force Lore beyond repairs
The only reason she doesn't levitate is because the story needs her to fall into the quicksand so they can learn that ochi died because he starved to death and somehow his ship is there and fully operational despite it being there long enough for ochi to turn into a skeleton
Mary Sue
Rey is the Mary Sue' Mary Sue
Muh Rey Suuuuuuuuuueeeeeeeeee
I feel like some Rey supporters are gonna attack this comment soon. Quick! Activate the Rey shields!
I think her being a Palpatine was a way of making her power a little more understandable. Not the perfect decision, but I think it helped when it comes to completing her story arc from where it was at
JJ was like “HAHA REYS A PALPATINE YOU CANT SAY SHES A MARY SUE NOW RIIIIIGGHHT?” and even though we kinda now know why she’s so powerful the explanation they gave is still a really REALLY stupid one imo so to me she’s still a Mary sue
It could have, had it been properly set up. We don't find out until the third movie, and by then her heritage had been retconned so much that it was essentially just another retcon to explain her incredible power.
It is still cheap and basically just a band-aid.
Just being powerful by lineage wasn't enough. Especially when fans had 2 years to shake JJs mystery boxes (that were wispering Luke or Obiwan as father) and get disappointed when RJ opens it to a "surprise! You were wrong!" Felt like the suprise of someone leaving a burning pile of poop on your front doorstep. When it became clear the the fans were pointing out how poorly written and illogical it was with all the build up of the previous movie, having a desperate JJ, pick up the discarded 'nobodies' box and say "surprise! you were kinda right?" When it was obvious that it was desperation and not well planned out story went over like..... Finding stale candy bar wrapped in poop and left burning at your door step. Nobody wants it now or even cares any more.
That hardly works as an explanation. Luke and Leia were the children of The Chosen One, but they weren't immediately born with great Force power like him, they still had to work for it.
I have 6 nieces in the 6-13 range and all absolutely LOVE Rey. She's an icon to them. Going to watch the video now. Always enjoy your content Thor.
Rey would have been fine as a character... If they had actually bothered to write her story. But I digress... Such is the Disney trilogy as a whole.
Spaceballs is better star wars than the sequel trilogy
@@JoshB_TheTower without a doubt.
This is actually a very well thought out and in-depth examination of this topic. Awesome job; can’t wait to see how you’ll tie it all together with your third video on the subject.
Make a movie called Star Wars The Fandom Wars
I think it be cool to get some of the biggest star wars youtubers to make a documentary about their veiws on star wars, like sw only, hello greedo, sw theory, and thor himself
@@joshuar8261 That would definitely be cool :)
Don't forget to add Mauler andthe rest of efap (minus Wolf of course)
@Lionard Kirsch I hope he does :))
@Lionard Kirsch oh and Lord Doomcock
To be honest, an easy fix for Rey's character (that wouldn't have made her Luke's daughter or Obi-Wan's descendant) is to have Rey have been a clone made by Palpatine while he was trying to create a new vessel for his spirit (sort of taking elements from Dark Empire comics and the original Thrown trilogy). But something happens (like one of the clone makers, Palpatine's assistants, etc grows a heart) and Rey is whisked away for her own safety (and she thinks this person or people are her parents). But then she is left behind by her 'parents' because they have been tracked by Palpatine's agents and they leave to keep her safe.
That would have explained her insane level of Force abilities with very little training, though for conflict, I would have also thrown in that she becomes frightened of her powers because seemingly each time she uses them, someone gets hurt and her main arc throughout the trilogy is learning to accept and control her powers.
Hate to say it, but this sort of thing is exactly what Thor is talking about when he says the more complex the theory, the less likely it is to happen...The average audience (and critic's) eyes would have glazed over before your first paragraph was onscreen!
Mary sue is an outdated term, nowadays we call them rey
I remember before The force awakes came out I was so excited. The scene in the trailer when Rey was inside the crashed ISD was mind blowing and it felt like Star Wars was truly coming back. I was perfectly fine with a female lead character, I just wish she'd actually been a character and not a JJ mystery box.
Mary Sue definition - the main character of the sequel Star Wars trilogy
1. Can fly the Falcon better than Han
2. Can fix the Falcon better than Han
3. Can do Jedi mind tricks like Obi Wan with no training
4. Defeated and almost killed a trained sith with no training
5. Saved a trained Sith who was overwhelmed in the throne room
6. Shot down three tie fighters with one shot
7. Moved a small mountains worth of boulders
8. Can levitate in the air with rocks circling like Aang from avatar
9. Can bring a ship back down to earth using the force
10. Random force lightning
11. Can sail a ship like an expert, even though she grew up on a DESERT planet
12. Ultimately, defeats Palps which apparently NO one was able to accomplish including Anakin
13. She even takes BB-8 from Poe, even though that makes zero sense.
14. She is also somehow a better pilot than Poe, even though Disney said he is one of, if not the best pilot.
MaRey Sue and Holdo broke Star Wars. Thanks JJ, KK, and RJ !!!
15) Totaly master of fighting on wet slippery stones. even though she grew up on a DESERT planet, but Luke slip on his own bakyard there he have lived for years?
16) Can dodge a exploding lightsaber then Kylo is beaten unconscious by the same explotion.
TFA - TRoS is maybe 12 months?
That means Rey went from scavenger on Jakku to defeating Palpatine in about a year.
Yoda, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar all Jedi Masters and very powerful couldn't beat Palpatine. Hell 3 of them died in seconds!
Rey beats him after a year of knowing about the force 🤢
Yeah thats about right
The lack of a TimeSkip really hurt this Trilogy
I think again with this part you have hit the nail on the head for the turning point and a lot of this was access media vs fans.
For me Rey was always a Mary Sue to start off with as she had nothing she could not overcome with no effort and even fought and beat the big bad evil guy with her no training and his training.
But the one thing i would say Rey had on her side was people still wanted to know her story, they had accepted that disney played too safe with the first movie(almost re-writing a new hope/star wars) the talk was still on going years after so all she needed was a on screen justification for how she was so powerful.
Maybe in addition something to show her being humbled a bit like maybe luke showing her she got very lucky because kylo had underestimated her and she got a critical blow in due to this which should not have happened.
The explanation of her raw power level (which from most of the thoery's did not require her to be a skywalker) and something to reset the threat level of Kylo Ren, most liking though teaching from Luke was all the needed progression for the story to move forward and keep the story unique, as a matter of fact you could have set up a reveal by luke at the start with the big bad evil guy (Kylo, snoke or palpatine assuming he was really discussed that early which i doubt very much) revealing a different lineage which then means she has to face the final chapter with doubts and although she has now been trained her ability to focus enough is now brought into question.
Instead she again faces no challenge she cannot overcome and even managed to teach herself an entirely new style of weapon fighting (from staff fighting to single sword fighting) which have very different ways of applying to combat and again nothing like a flashback showing this was how she pretended to fight as a kid or something to demonstrate why.
And sadly in episode 9 her story got no further developed due to jj seeming to have a massive checklist of things he needed to happen in the movie which shot the pace of it to ruins.
And so the only explanation for Rey's powers was a very poor on screen explanation a quick training sequence with Liea which was more assault course than force training (at least to my mind/eyes) and nothing else which sadly left Rey a Mary Sue.
Her character had a lot of potential as did so many others in the trio of movies but was not used or developed well as was also true with so many others, but no others at her power level.
Just imagine if Dave Fuloni was the next man in charge after Lucas oh wow the whole star wars fandom would be happy
No. He turned Darth Vader into a chump to save his Author's Pet. With _time travel._
Filoni is a hack.
Her Marysueness in TFA could have been excusable if the rest of her story was good, unfortunately it wasn't. A good example of a GOOD star wars sequel story is uniquenameosorus' rewrite.
I always hoped it would be revealed that she actually was trained from a young age, but something happened causing her to lose her memory and get stranded on Jakku. Unfortunately the only explanation they gave eventually is just "she's a palpatine", which isn't by far sufficient. Even Palpatine was trained by a sith master.
She isnt that much of a mary sue Tho. She only beats kylo cause of him being shot by a bow caster and visibly bleeding out of the wound, as well as him not being in the best emotional state or veryfocused.
She isnt a great characte, but she isnt that much of a mary sue.
@Archangel17 I mean she technically trained in self defense.
What really baffles me is how she was able to LIFT A MOUNTAIN in TLJ with little to no effort
@@achaudhari101 when?
i kinda feel bad for daisy ridley... feel like she got screwed over
Yeah really! imagine getting a role to one of the biggest franchises ever. She was so excited as was everyone else. And then getting so much hate for trying your best at acting and portraying a character. 😔
Underrated comment. She is a great actress just wasted like the rest of the sequel trilogy’s cast.
Pretty much all the new stars got the short end of the stick. Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo could have been so much more. It's kinda sad really.
People can't see past the horror the new star wars has brought over and will see the actor/actress and the character as the same entity. She had nothing to do with the movie or how bad her character was, just was dealt a bad hand. People of both sides, for and against the new star wars has gone after her. Hell after the 9th movie came out butt hurt Reylo shippers attacked Reys and Kylos actor/actress just because their ship never happened or at least not to the extent they had in mind. Like it or not Daisy's picture has been tainted by these movies and some people will never forgive her even tho she did nothing wrong. It's honestly sad, I just hope the heat will die down eventually if it hasn't done so already.
To anyone who says that Anakin and Luke were Mary Sues too, just remember that Rey is a bigger one than both of them put together.
@@emberfist8347 not only that, but they needed saving. Anakin was saved from Maul by Qui Gonn, Luke was saved multiple times by Ben. Rey on the other hand saved herself from captivity.
Blake Tyson Could it maybe be argued that child Anakin was a bit of a Mary Sue in episode 1? Blowing up the droid ship and all that.
@@austinjohnsen4430yeah but I always looked at that as a combination of chosen one extreme force sensitivity and his gifted pioleting. While the force is kinda bs sometimes anakins extremely good pioleting skills were pretty well established across all the movies which is one the thing he never struggled with, so him blowing up the ship never bothered me to much
Golden Class The whole thing is almost played off as a joke with the whole spinning is a good trick bit, and him going oops when he accidentally destroys the reactor.
Lionard Kirsch People like to justify Rey’s skills by pointing out that she learned them while growing up on Jakku. This of course raises the question of HOW did she learn these skills. Surely she didn’t just learn them all by herself. Because if she did, then that just makes her even more of a Mary Sue.
I don't even get why Rey is a feminist Icon, her final story is her falling in love with the bad guy?
@Tom Ffrench yeah i agree, but her falling in love with the dude makes no sense and actually seems more superficial than anything
I'd like to compliment you - not only have you always been a very calm, moderate voice in all your criticisms of the Disney trilogy (which I still think is important if we're all to ever get out of this culture war hell) but this is actually very important work which highlights the truth behind the misinformation that has been spun SINCE Ep.8. Thank you!
First one needs to go to the core of the problem with the triology itself the writing. It starts at the very head of Lucas film KK. I understand her wanting to give as many legs up to women as she could once she took over. Example she bragged that her writing team consisted of seven writers five of whom were female. That is fine with me just as long as they all understand the mythos of SW and apparently they didn't.
Rey reminds me not of a movie character but that of a play station game character who find all the people and things she needs in a choreographed fashion.
To answer your question if Rey is a modern definition of a Mary Sue the answer Is yes. Rey is the antithesis of Iconic.
Iconic implies a person who overcomes the challenges in their lives and often times fail as well. Rey never did any of those things.
Example
How did she obtain a lightsaber? The game I'm sorry the story gives her one. Not just any old lightsaber Luke's lightsaber. How convenient.
Second she goes to confront Snoke fors she win ? Absolutely not Kylo kills her.
Also JJA and RJ were the absolute worst choices for these movies. You needed true story tellers not magic boxes, your mama jokes, a car chase that lasts an entire movie and the reappearance of a dead iconic character to try and save your butt.
Rey a nobody
Finn a janitor
Poe a fumbling idiot unless in a plane.
Luke a washed up alcoholic drug user hiding from reality
Leia Mary Poppins
Han deadbeat dad
Chewie completely lost
C3pO useless
R2D2 no existent.
Thank you KK JJA and RJ thank you for nothing but identity politics and a special need to try and include everyone in the alphabet that did nothing to tell a coherent triology.
So true. So true...
You are spot on with your analysis, Thor. I listen to Professor Geek (who's a professor of mythology) and he says that a certain group of people sees characters as symbols and not characters in and of itself. They then do not want to see the character go through trials and tribulations (which usually leads to character development), as they will see that as an affront to the symbol that must be "protect at all costs". As a result, these characters are static and perfect. Some that are not perfect will have "endearing" weaknesses (namely, naivety).
You fought in War of Star Wars Fandom?
Yes. I was once a star wars fan, the same as your father
Wow, that explanation starting at 6:50 sounds amazing and ties the whole saga together, having high potential for a good story and strong ending to the 40-year-old series, from which we could then, afterward, move forward with non-Skywalker stories!
Yeah, the Disney Wars Trilogy is what a set of movies looks like when someone wipes their ass with three films.
I remember when I first heard of it, it was labeled for characters that were considered perfect. Or not even perfect but received something that others didn't because... reasons...
This is Darth Bullsith of the Galactic Notification Empire! All wings, report in!
Bullsith, standing by!
Purrgil Leader, standing by!
Brown Leader, standing by!
Blue Flower Child, standing by!
Red 69 standing by!
The worst part of episode 9 is that Rey didn't stay dead
I remember having no problems with Rey in Force Awakens; people made way too much of Rey defeating Kylo in a duel, hommie just got cratered by Chewie with a lazbolt to the gut.
Rey had never picked up a lightsaber before this, she picks one up and beats someone who was trained by one of the most powerful Jedi of all time(Luke). It’s impossible to justify
H i Was Luke on of the most powerful Jedi of all time? I just thought he was the person who helped Anakin redeem himself and that ultimately Anakin as the chosen one was the “most powerful Jedi”.
Another question is, are lightsabers purely force weapons or for all intents and purposes a lazer sword? I mean if Charlemagne was given a lightsaber, wouldn’t he still be as proficient with it as if it was a steel sword? If so, it wouldn’t matter that she’d never held a lightsaber before if she had weapons training
@@MurdocIsASaint It's not the same as a sword, no weight other than handle. Also dark side users are supposed to get stronger with pain.
Shawn Wood The blade length of a sword but the weight of a dagger sounds like a boon to most sword users?
I concede the pain thing though, only counterpoint would be that Kylo is a phoney sith haha
@@MurdocIsASaint yes luke was, in legends he had the potential of the chosen one and he achieved that power. Another thing is that Rey isn't knowledgeable enough in the force to create a force wall. All Kylo needed to do was knock her out again with a force push, stasis, or force choke.
Now I see some symbolisms here, perhaps, just perhaps what if Rey = Kathleen Kennedy and Palpatine = George Lucas. Kennedy seriously destroyed Lucas' empire.
No point blaming the character or Daisy's acting for the whole misconceived trilogy.
The character is the locus of "the whole misconceived trilogy."
@@TheNthMouse Indeed. And Ridley is just as arrogant as her character.
*Looks at title*
Both, she is both. Rey is the most iconic Mary Sue of our generation.
Leia: Icon
Rey: sjw mary sue
Leia was a secondary who barely changed throughout the OT and got weaker over time.
I really love Rey. I wanted her to be a nobody. But I read an interview with Daisy Ridley and she said that J.J. told her that Rey was a nobody. Also J.J. said that he wanted her to be a nobody. He obviously saw all the critics and changed her story (bad idea).
@@emberfist8347 I honestly don't think so.
Yeah, what a great role model she is: you got a problem, then scream at him (cause your problem is always male) until he disintegrates...
people expect me not to laugh at this?
The main problem with the term “Mary Sue” nowadays is that both sides aren’t using the same definition. The media is using it as a sexist term whilst the fans are using it to complain about a character. Another problem with this whole thing is that it’s really easy to get clicks when you want somebody to hate something.
I personally don’t think that it’s a sexist term and I complain about Mary Sues of any gender.
“We the fans” is not that simple.
Loving this series so far!
Mary Sue!!!!
A character is not strong by doing cool things but by confronting their flaws and fears and experiencing pain but not letting it to devalue you but to develop you.
Ahsoka,mara jade,bastila shan,leia and jaina solo are great examples of that.
I was actually looking for to seeing Rey but the minute she got into the Falcon I knew she was a Mary Sue.
The entire Disney trilogy is absolute SJW propaganda!
There's no hope for Star Wars as long as Katherine Kennedy is still in a job.
As a female I can totally and 100% see the problem with Rey. She simply has no flaws. Even when she “died” at the end of ROS I was just sitting there like I she isn’t really dead. I never felt any danger for her. We were scared for Luke when he went against Vader and we felt sorry for Anakin. Nothing for Rey
I bet Thor wouldn't respond to this comment. ;D
Correct
Bait much?
It just hit me, I subbed to you a month or two before TFA! 5 years ago!!! D: time flies! An enjoyable 5 yrs being subbed to you though :)
I mean... The Star Wars fandom was pretty toxic even before the sequels, it just didn't got so much attention. (I'm not talking about not liking the sequels, I'm talking about being shitty to other people.) The fans basically bullied George Lucas into selling the whole thing.
The first time I heard the term Mary Sue used to describe Rey, I knew exactly what it meant despite never hearing it before.
Its perfect to describe her
excellently researched, cogently argued. Seems spot on, to me. Cheers!
7:46 Made sense?! Firstly how the f*** would have Luke lost her and not been able to find her? Secondly the lightsaber would still need an explanation for how it got there and you are still meant to bond with your own kyber crystal. Thirdly her bloodline doesn't work as an explanation as Luke was the son of the chosen one and he still had to train and learn from experience. Fourthly I don't think she would've been old enough to receive any training let alone remember any of it. The fact is she had to come from nowhere, all the fan theories didn't make any logical sense and where really just the fans in denial over how there was never going to be a logical explanation for Rey's power thanks to JJ. At best this theory would have mitigated the damage, not fixed it.
With Rey, they should've capitalised on the 'these are your first steps' in 7 and made her a descendant of Obi Wan.
Explains her great power in the force? Check.
Gives her some sort of meaningful link to the pre existing characters? Check.
Milking money from nostalgia for an eventual Skywalker-Kenobi 'reunion' with Kylo? Check.
Is it the most creative idea? F*ck No but order of magnitude more coherent than what we got.
I remember after this movie that the dude behind SW Theory made several clips about Snoke's golden slippers and the ring from Mustafar. That made me resilient to fan theories that had little basic in anything
An important part of "Mary Sue" that people have forgotten is tied into its use as a fan fiction origins: It's a NEW character, *added to an already ongoing story*, who upstages previously established characters at their own specialties. This is why original characters who start their own franchises, such as Batman or Wonder Woman, are not really MS, no matter HOW powerful or skilled they are...because it's THEIR story.
An example of a potential MS done well, is Saavik in Star Trek II (ironically, the very franchise that brought us the term): She's an interesting new character, with a uniquely special background, but she fits appropriately into the story, and *doesn't* steal the show in any way; in the same movie were made today, it would bend over backwards to impress us with how awesome she is, by having her out-logic Spock and save the ship...just like the original Mary Sue!
10:29 these points are terrible.
Luke:
1. is mentioned multiple times in the movie to be a good pilot and his t16 is a model used to train x wing pilots as the controls are similar and they are made by the same company.
2. Ben reaches out to him, not the other way around. Also this ignores all the lore around force ghosts.
3. That is a straight up lie, you can clearly see Luke with a blaster rifle in the sandpeople scene and the stormtroopers were ordered to let them escape.
Anakin: I agree that the phantom menace version is a Garry stu, but the podracing one isn't valid as he isn't a non-force sensitive human and basic precognition is literally the easiest force power to learn as seen in A New Hope
Rey:
2. And then escapes all on her own by using a force power that can take months even years to learn.
3. She killed 3 in the forest and then a few more inside the thermal oscillator.
4. Kylo was still strong enough to fight her and Finn, this is literally her first time wielding a lightsaber and no her improvised skill with a staff does not translate over, Kylo Ren has years of training and experience under Luke and Snoke, he is very strong with the force due to his bloodline, and lastly Rey can't conjure a force wall so all he had to do was incapacitate her instantly using the force (which he did but then didn't do to Finn as well for whatever reason)
Anakin had auto pilot at the battle of naboo and R2 to help him. I dont see how he was a gary stu.
@@thorthewolf8801 yeah but then r2 turned the auto-pilot off
By the end of TFA, the character fits the description of a Mary Sue. They had two movies to prove otherwise, yet she ended TROS exactly as she first appeared. Just with a load of stuff she nicked along the way.
I actually have my theory as to why Rey inexplicably knows how to do these things and it's because originally we we're suppose to be shown her early on flying the Millenium Falcon and her training with Luke. From what I've heard early concept work showed Rey flying the Millenium Falcon in search of the Luke Skywalker map which establishes her knowledge of flying the Flacon. For some reason they cut this out, my guess is to have the Tantive IV moment with Poe and BB-8, but still wanted the moment where she flies the Falcon like an expert.
So from what I can gather about the early Lucas outlines and from what Michael Arndt even had planned according to his own words in a 2016 EW Interview with the writers of TFA Luke Skywalker was originally set to appear much earlier in The Force Awakens. Paraphrasing here, but Michael Arndt described it as Rey having her home destroyed, she finds Luke Skywalker and then kicks the bad guys ass. The issue they had was Luke kept taking the limelight from the other characters especially the main character Rey and so they eventually wrote him more, or less out of the movie. I think what happened is they ran out of time to write the movie. Michael Arndt left less than six months before photography do to script writing issues and J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan were still writing it well into photography. They wanted Rey to kick the bad guys ass and show off how awesome she was, but they didn't have enough time to write a more suitable scenario. So her flying the Falcon and having inexplicable knowledge of Force abilities and skill was a relic of an earlier script. I also have a feeling one reason Rey is so powerful is either it's because she's the fan insert, and/or that it was an attempt to keep her from being outshined by Luke Skywalker.
I also recently found a video by a little known RUclipsr named DonLasagna and he makes a really interesting point about how Rey has her own sort of story arc in TFA, but it makes no sense because it's her story arc in Luke Skywalker's story and my running theory is that it's another relic of the early scripts based of George Lucas's outlines. Because they decided to make TFA more like A New Hope, but retain Rey's original character arc you end up with this mismatch of story and character.
I think they set out to explicitly make Rey an icon without having any of the writing or character development to justify it and it makes me sad because I truly from the deepest pit of my soul wanted to like Rey. I was still fine with her after TFA but the films after that truly made me understand why people were upset.
On a side note, I feel really bad for Daisy Ridley. Imagine landing the role of a lifetime - main character in a Star Wars trilogy! - and then having to work with that.