you didn't talke about setting the coolers at different temps to save energy watts . .example set 4 coolers to -10 -8 -6 and -4 that way all the coolers aren't running at 200x4 watts trying to keep it below 0 degrees and the room only use (200+20+20+20 watts)what it's need to keep them cold
Ahhrgh! You're right, and I had originally planned to talk about exactly this and then forgot! I'll have to slip it into a later video somehow or other.
A myth, IIRC. Coolers/heaters on low power mode doesn't generate anything IIRC. If your freezer is at -10, then that single cooler set at -10 is enough. The rest are only backups for heatwaves.
? umm that's what I said . .there isn't any point to having all the freezers set to the same temp when if ones enough . .the others will run at a lower wattage use
I like to use Shelves to make a dedicated mini-freezer for my kitchen to use, rather than a large freezer. You really only need one shelf for meat, one for eggs/animal products, one for vegetables, and one for meals. Meals take a while to expire under normal temps, so you can actually have a shelf in your dining room to cut down on foot traffic into the fridge. I usually have a separate barn (temp controlled fridge) for crop storage and a meat locker (freezer with butcher table) separate from the kitchen (large carcasses are stored whole rather than immediately butchered as this is more space efficient), and use the priority system to manage keeping the kitchen stocked. Shelves are amazing at making sure a ready supply of ingredients are located near where they are needed in general, such as a hay-dedicated shelf in an animal pen and another next to a butcher table for making kibble. This cuts down a lot of travel time.
I have gotten to the point where my freezer airlock is inside the freezer itself, not on the outside edge. Usually accomplish this by making it big enough for a short hall along one wall that exits outside. When you do this and only single wall it between this room and the freezer proper, then it seems like you don't lose a lot of heat since the airlock itself is kept cool by the temperature equalization with the freezer.
What about a triple door airlock? The middle one slow and the outer two fast doors. The middle one will stop your person long enough for the door behind them to close all the way.
2:00 Oh shit! That's what I was doing wrong. I built my base into a mountain and had the 'hot side' of the coolers going into a small cave, trapping the hot air inside. I was like holy shit, why aren't you bastards cooling my stuff! Thanks for the video, it really helped me out!
I usually use a 3x3, or 5x5 airlock (allows for mood-enhancing statues and similar props)... ...which, I guess, would allow the use fast doors without risking a fully open system?
Excellent work as usual! Does the type of floor affect heating or cooling? Maybe if there are enough questions you can make a video containing all of them from all your science videos.
You know, that's what I was intending to do -- make a video here going over follow-up questions from earlier videos. (I was thinking maybe for #10.) I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is 'no', but it would make great fodder for the follow-ups video!
Not sure if someone asked this, but can you check on the next video the impact of using coolers in serial as opposed to parallel? I mean a room inside a room, you had a similar setup but with vents, what would happen if those are coolers as well? Then you could have freezers deep within a mountain venting into a corridor which eventually runs to a series of coolers venting into outside.
From the graph alone it looks like the ceiling loses heat as well as the walls. Larger rooms have fewer walls per tile, but all rooms always have one ceiling per tile. Given that the slope is relatively shallow for rooms larger than 8x8 I would say that the walls aren't doing much given their resource consumption. I'd hazard a guess that the resources for building the wall exceed the value of adding another cooler and necessary power capacity.
Something else to look into is if you have another room around your freezer if it would be better to: 1) Have 1 cooler for the outside room and 1 cooler for the freezer. 2) Have 2 coolers for the outside room cooling the freezer. 3) 2 coolers for the freezer. From what I have seen from the test you have done it would seem that having the outside room cooling the freezer wouldn't work out well and as for the coolers in the freezer room they would have the benefit of cooling off the outside room. But I wonder if having the outside room being at least partially cooled off will do more to help maintain the freezer rooms temp than just stuffing the freezer with more coolers?
Sorry, I just meant: Normally, a room with no roof should use outdoor temperature. But a 1x1 room doesn't use outdoor temperature. I was assuming that was a bug (why would a roofless room not use outdoor temperature?), but maybe it's intended behavior? You're right that a larger roofless room will work fine. In fact, a 4x4 room with 5 unroofed tiles will use outdoor temperature, and will work too. (I hadn't tried 3x3 without roofs, but I'm not surprised they work.)
I typically use 3x1, and that seems to be the sweet spot. You can vent as much as you like into it (I use 3 coolers) and it is considered outdoor temp.
No, 1x1 rooms are still bugged. You can watch the temps "fluxuate" in a connected 1x1 room, 30->60, pulsing every second, for no reason, when next to a freezer an touching the outside world, with an outside temp of 90 and an inside temp of 0. It is as if the temps for "hot" and "cold" are two individual values, instead of being just one value, within each space. It has a "heat tick slot", followed by a "cooling tick slot", instead of just cooling by X-units, each turn. (Taking the average of both phases, instead of pushing UP on second #1, then cooling DOWN on second #2. In a large room, it is less noticeable, because the more "cells" you have, the more of a space-buffer you have. Having four coolers, in one space, you can have overlapping ticks for heating and the isolated cooling ticks. So one second it is 1, then 2, then 1, then 3, then 2, then 2, then 4, while heat is always every other second tick. A cooler only heats one block, the coolness has to travel to the walls and other blocks, at the same time, heat on the other ticks, is doing the same thing, from outside.) In short, because each is running at the same time... they can all see 40 as the "base temp", when calculating the "new temp"... Instead of each one taking-turns, one seeing 40, the next seeing it 39, the next seeing it 38, and the last seeing it 37, followed by the heat-bleeding (one tick), of increasing it to 40 again, in one shot. Instead, they all see 40, or only two see 40, or three, {the bug}, and the final result of the change is only 1 degree from 4 coolers, or none {which makes it rise to 45, which is uncooled plus the 5 that leeched in} The other design flaw, in code, is the fact that the hot output on the wall, comes back into the AC unit and the surrounding wall-blocks, because it has to bleed-out into the outside room blocks. (You only see the generic "outside temp", but this is why it fails in a stacked series, inside too.)
I know this video is somewhat old now, and there have been updates, but the largest I have been able to have a room without a hole in the roof is 12x12. I have tried larger, but they always leave a gap in the roof in the center. You said here that the largest without a gap is 18x18, and while that might have been true 3 years ago (not sure what version that was), it now seems (as of version 1.1, at least), that is no longer the case.
Alright, after your in and out test the wooden door and steel door were at -109, then at the end you say that the sandstone auto door is the best overall when it ranked in at -97. What you didn't test was the steel normal door vs the stone autodoor on walk through speed, if the normal door speed is relatively close to the auto-door, that would make wood or steel the best?
Thanx Bjorn as I learnt here and will try to apply at our next base :) Something you don't mention that I use: Make passive coolers all over the place the moment a heat wave is coming. Helps fridges, people and animals quite a bit. But we get 50+ degrees Celcius for a coupe days in our base. Imagine with 3k Meat if a Solar thingy occurs at same time?
In bottom left room at 12:20 temp is -105, at 12:47 temp is -94 already. Why it heat up so fast? There was only one "door run". It will be interesting to compare a single fast autodoor and regular doors with airlock. Is it really worthwhile to make an airlock?
Yeah, with no coolers running, when you're at about 125C warmer than the outside, even with double walls those rooms will heat up pretty fast. Suppose he room EQ is at something like 5C, which isn't crazy for that size room and temperature differential. Then the room heats up every 120 ticks = 2 seconds. If a single door run through a stone door airlock takes 4 seconds, there's your difference of 10C right there. (The last video went a lot more into these mechanics.) I too wonder whether airlocks are worth it. In this scenario the difference was only a degree or two after 10 runs immediately in a row, and that's without a cooler running in the freezer trying to make up the difference. In a regular freezer, where you've got it set to like -5C, and if you've build it so that pawns aren't regularly pathing through it, you might not save enough to really make it worthwhile. (On the other hand, if you have animals going in and out *constantly*, as I have had in some colonies, the airlock might be a real lifesaver. So I guess that's probably where the tradeoff lies -- in how much traffic your freezer sees.
Thanks. Somehow I missed that initial temperature was -270 :) So in 10 walks rooms heat up by ~160, in the last run by ~10, this makes sense. For me the main conclusion is that difference caused by walking is about 5-8 degree. Or only 3-5% from total heat up. Pretty negligible difference for the most scenarios. Thank you for the science!
I realize this is an old video but jade auto-doors are said to be the fastest type of auto-door. Would it provide the same benefits as the stone auto-doors since they should be shut by the time the other is open?
If you put 2 or maybe 3 blocks between the air locks using auto doors, then you could get the benefit of having no movment be impeeded and keeping the air inside the cooler
It depends on size and ambient temperature and how many times colonists open the doors, but...about half a day, if you block all doors and have proper insulation(double walls and doors) in a place that isn't an extreme desert. It usually isn't supposed to be problem, since solar flares don't last a lot more than a day and even foods with the shortest spoilage time last about three times that. All in all, it's not something to be worried about. Heat waves can't really be beaten by vanilla coolers(hint: Hygiene) and solar flares don't last long, so food spoilage shouldn't be a problem. If you can't restore power, then whatever cold you managed to trap in your walk in freezer will dissipate in a couple of hours, at best. Once your cooler stops, the temperature will rise rapidly until it is in equilibrium with the outside, regardless of what you do. In short: Not long enough, but it's(mostly) okay. P.S.: This is why it's a good idea to stockpile a couple thousand units' worth of rice and/or potatoes and keep a nutrient paste dispenser. Sooner or later, you *will* get into a situation where you will need to persist despite the lack of available food gathering opportunities. You get a raid with sappers, then a quadrum of toxic fallout, your crops get eaten by blight and then all your dedicated farmers come down with the sleeping sickness. You will thank your lucky stars for having stockpiled an Armageddon's worth of tubers and a Noah's Ark worth of animal meat.
according to your graph, the outside temperature is very much an influence on the cooling capability, so what if you make a room of 3x3 cooled by 1 or 2 cooler, with a single wall, then the room outside of that (surrounding wall with 1 air gap) is also cooled by 2-3 maybe more coolers, etc etc, see how cold you can get?
I tried that sort of thing -- it turns out to be just about equally effective as just using all those coolers in a room. I mean, if you have a 3x3 room with one cooler into it, surrounded (more or less) by a 5x5 room with one cooler into *it*, the 3x3 room will get colder than if it was just a 3x3 room with a single cooler. But it will get slightly LESS cold than if you had just made the 3x3 room and used *two* coolers (which you had to do to make the setup I described anyway). So, it's balanced pretty well to make it hard to exploit.
Huh. I guess they changed how mountain temperatures change. Back in A14 and lower, any roofed wall tile automatically stabilizes to outside temp unless surrounded by an empty tile (with a mountain roof) acting as an air buffer. This meant most mountain freezers, their temp is constantly being influenced by the outside temp of the walls if there is no air buffer.
Then you'd have a larger area , so the room would equalize faster. This is optimal, although you might do a little better with one auto door and one regular door, would require more testing.
You tested up to 4 coolers, but I was wondering if keeps going? Obviously there is a limit to how many you can put on a room, but at what point does adding more coolers do more harm than good?
So, given what we've seen, I'm guessing that as the rooms get larger, you can put more coolers into them before you start losing cooling power. (Maybe some large rooms can take coolers indefinitely?) We already see this happen with 4 coolers at a 1x1 room and even a 2x2 room. I guess we could chart: for each nxn room, what is the number of coolers that get the lowest temp?
I wonder whether putting the airlocks in the corners does anything. I'd never done this until I was rearranging rooms and it was a way to maximise useful space. It is a peculiar airlock that I haven't seen elsewhere. After watching the temperature equalisation one, I wondered whether, by substituting the tile across the door with a wall, some of it is saves. I also wonder whether putting the coolers on the outer layer of wall does something. It is valuable in fridges since it gives an extra tile to put things in. Finally, I found out that rooms with 2 unroofed tiles make for effective vents indeed, but I wonder if it makes any difference to it being actually outdoors.
Good stuff here. I'm having a hard time envisioning exactly what you mean by putting the airlock in a corner, but I can see there might be some gain to be had there. And the point about coolers on the outside wall seems like a good one (I'm going to start using that) -- whether or not there's any gain, you get the extra space. The only thing I was thinking with the 'vent-to-outdoors' is that there's never any risk of not venting fast enough, because the outdoors never heat up. You're right that there are other configurations that will work well too. I didn''t really look at that in detail, though. Would be interesting to look into it more.
It is a peculiar setup that I wouldn't have thought of if it hadn't showed up accidentally. it's having the inner airlock door at one of the tiles immediately adjacent to the corner, and using the dead space in the corner to run the airlock, so that you have an airlocked fridge in a perfect double walled square: i.imgur.com/dhHh0aS.png
a good idea is to use a fast wooden door inside the cooler and a slow stone door outside ... 3 tiles apart ... the cold stays in the room better and the airlock slows the person down enough to allow the inside door to close before the outside one opens ... trapping the best amount of heat or cold inside the building I prefer wooden inside and granite outside ... yeah always granite ... makes my cooler my panic room then
I actually don't use airlock to my freezer, it slows my pawns down too much, I rather stick there another cooler to keep it around -39°C all the time and 1 door doesn't really affect it. Maybe if I didn't have enough space for wind turbines/steam geysers/solar panels then I may use it with less coolers, but in heat wave you will need more coolers to keep your freezers below freezing point.
This is awsome man haha, I want to share my experiece with my freezer too... i put an cooler in the airlock hall too (-30celcius), so it will reduce the heat loss when the door open, and make my freezer temperature consistent
wondering if the airlock for the steel auto doors had been made 2-3 spaces longer, would the temp have been better then the stone doors? since the outside door would have time to close?
I was thinking about using two squares between the doors, with a jog to the left or right. So, go in the outer door, then one square left or right, and then in.
Tnx for theses test. What about cooling the sas access to lowest temp instead of the fridge? And use a sas access longer instead of 1x1 to maximise the closing speed effect and the sas effect?
Would having your coolers inside the room with a double walled chimney cause any issues (as long as it Isn't a single square chimney) Or would the double wall negate the heat produced by the coolers?
So, I think wYc7T imf had a similar suggestion here too. I suspect that by adding a chimney, you'll make the room less effective 'cause you're upping the number of walls and lowering the room size, and I'm not sure what advantage you'd get. But I could be wrong about that; if/when I run some more tests, I'll be including that one.
Does the cooler work to heat some place (to act like radiator) in the same time that cool another place. Or we need radiator ? And what if we combine this?
Well, it will make a small one insofar as the larger room will change heat levels slower, and if the tunnel is long enough it'll change which door patterns are better. But it's got to be fairly long before they really change, I think.
I'm concerned that the only thing making the stone autodoors the winners of your door comparison is their speed compared to the other autodoors. When you mouse over the regular door rooms they have the same temperature (not counting stone) as the stone autodoor room. So the final comparison should be between regular doors (wood and steel) and the stone autodoors. The regular doors have the advantage of not being slower in case they're out of power. Maybe a regular wooden door or regular steel door is preferable to a stone autodoor?
Yes, it is absolutely the speed, and you're right that when the power goes out they become the worst. IIRC, there is a *slight* improvement for stone autodoors over wood doors, but it's very small. In my own playthroughs, I seldom-if-ever make autodoors, and always just put wood doors on my freezers. For whatever that's worth...
Autodoors are well worth it, the time saved in moving through them is good for high traffic rooms. Especially for emergency scenarios when you have to respond to an immediate threat, that extra couple of seconds can be important in getting a few extra shots off against an incoming threat.
I know this was made a while ago.. but the conclusion would be that for freezers normal wooden and steel doors are better than autodoors if you have such a short airlock?
What about a mix of an auto door and a regular door? What about making a small room in the center of the freezer and putting the hot ends of the coolers there? Also, I find your videos to be very interesting, please keep making them!
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm seeing why venting to a middle chimney would be better than just venting out a wall -- you're upping the amount of walls space and lowering the room size, while still having the same amount of coolers. But, like I said somewhere else on the thread, I'm thinking of doing a follow-up video where I check out a bunch of these suggestions, and I can definitely throw this one into the mix.
Bjorn Strongndarm You can surround your cooler with other rooms though, i.e. you don't have to break the layout because of the chimney. It's also looks nice. Just to be clear: I'm not saying it'd be more efficient than venting out a wall, I'm rather interested in how much of a trade off in terms of temperature efficiency this is.
Have you considered studying some engineering on this? Or looking at the code and trying to figure out how the game mathematically handles the dynamic models between heat duty and temperature change?
One other test Freezer small room, freezer into big room, and or First freezer into a 'corridor room' single wall to the main freezer. (effectively making a freezer in a freezer with an airlock that surrounds the whole room rather then just one square.
You had an example where you had a freezer into a small room, with a vent to the main area. The basic idea is to replace the vent with a second freezer, and compare that to two side by side freezers. And to make that 'small room' bigger so it wraps around the entire main area (single wall) to further reduce temperature loss.
I'm pretty sure what happens is that you have both doors open at the same time (b/c the first door is still open while you're walking into the second) so you lose more air than with the space in between. But when I do a follow-up, I should look at that, to be sure.
I was wondering if you'd done any math regarding movement speeds, ie jogger or fast walker or pets hauling things for you (or bionics, if you cover that sort of thing) and cooler airlocks?
There is more surface area when it's not a square but if you double wall does that really matter? Your last video did not test to see if there is a temperature difference between double triangle (odd shape) and normal triangle. Most likey I just miss understood something.
Actually, we did do that in the earlier video, towards the beginning. We had a bunch of 5x5, double-walled rooms, and some odd-shaped rooms also with 25 tiles, and the odd-shaped 25-tile rooms did a bit worse than the square ones. So yeah, it matters even for double-walling (and it's even *worse* if you're single-walling.)
What about Coolers in serial. Specialy for a warm biome. Say you have +40C outdoors. You cool the indoor to +20. then cool the frezzers to -200C something. Is that more efficient? The coolers uses 200W and the heaters use 175. I tried using the coolers as a heat pump. It turned oun that the coolers only produced 150W of heat while producing 200W of cold. This is the opposite to how it works in reality. That suggest to me that putting coolers in serieal you may reduce the amount of power that is cooled of for every step.
I guess this is kind of what i was trying to do when I had the little 'rooms' off to the side each being cooled down to 20C or so, and the bigger freezer in the middle cooling to way down. What I found was weird -- basically the opposite. The side-room coolers just turned off, because the big freezer was acting as a heat sink for them, and it only cost the freezer like one degree over what it would have been getting if it had just been double-walled.
What hapepns if you stack coolers? like 2 or 3 in a row in a 1xX corridor, with (and without) a 1x1 space between the coolers. W = Wall, H = Hot side, M = cooler Machine, C = Cool side, _ = Space: ---------------WWWWWWWWW outside---HMC_HMC_HMC---Room ---------------WWWWWWWWW
So, I gave it a little test -- it's a little bit more efficient (more cooling power) than just having one cooler into the room, but it's a lot LESS efficient than just having three coolers into the room. The reason is that each cooler in your line is blowing heat into the room next to it, and so the next cooler over has to work against that heat as well.
Great information, but I disagree with the open roof chimney. It worked fine for me in vanilla RW 10 through 18. Then too, my chimney is 2 to 3 tiles wide because I placed my coolers next to one another, and that may have made all the difference.
I had two wind turbines to power 2 coolers and I couldn’t even get one to cool the room. I had a flashing power symbol. But my turbines were building power and my AC was taking power from the line. I thought the 2nd wind turbine would help power my few ACs get power :(
I didn't test those ones, but my understanding is no, and for the same reason the wood autodoors weren't so good: both doors will have to be open at the same time, so you lose a lot of cold air. You need that block in between so one door can close before the other opens.
I'm pretty sure it's possible -- at least, I've heard of people doing it -- but I've never figured out the skill myself, so I'm probably not a very helpful person to ask.
There is no remote-controlled doors, as far as I know so it may not work. Intruders will just destroy your door, normalising temperature before it even harm them. Good Idea for a mod, though.
I saw a video where the player had made a long tunnel the raiders go into, then he had a colonist on the far side throw moltov's inside on carpet and wooden stuff to start a fire, then built walls at both ends of the tunnel, sealing it completely. Every raider died horribly as the temperature inside reached ridiculous levels.
actually it might work going in but not coming back out :( if only there was a way to make the person stay in the airlock till the door behind them closed
Maybe somebody can help me. I have a really good round with lost tribe. I explored the science and in theory i can build coolers. But in my buildingoptions i cant build it!! I just can build a heater and earlier things.. i tried it for hours and stared game new.. but i just cant build the fcking cooler... :(((
I put my butchers table in my freezer too. Just takes a second to butcher, but this way they don't have to walk all over to get meat from a dead animal...or person.
Hi, sir, how about a two walls with an air between them? Something like this: i.imgur.com/lvdf58u.png I heard it's the best possible design for heat insulation.
So, I think in real life this is the best way to insulate heat. (That's how double-glazed windows work, for instance.) But I would expect that this is going to be less effective than just double-walling. The insulating room is going to contribute some extra heat to the main freezer just because of how the wall equalization is calculated. But I'm thinking of doing a follow-up video where I check out a bunch of these suggestions, and I'll definitely throw it into the mix. (NameGeneratorFailed's results suggest what's gonna happen, but we can still check it out.)
4:10 31-4 = 26 now that's some serious science there
Haha! *facepalm* That's what happens when I don't submit my work for peer review before publishing, I guess. ;P
@@BjornStrongndarm This IS the peer review.
you didn't talke about setting the coolers at different temps to save energy watts . .example set 4 coolers to -10 -8 -6 and -4 that way all the coolers aren't running at 200x4 watts trying to keep it below 0 degrees and the room only use (200+20+20+20 watts)what it's need to keep them cold
Ahhrgh! You're right, and I had originally planned to talk about exactly this and then forgot! I'll have to slip it into a later video somehow or other.
btw you do some great videos! and I think they are super valuable!
Thank you! I really appreciate that!
A myth, IIRC. Coolers/heaters on low power mode doesn't generate anything IIRC.
If your freezer is at -10, then that single cooler set at -10 is enough. The rest are only backups for heatwaves.
? umm that's what I said . .there isn't any point to having all the freezers set to the same temp when if ones enough . .the others will run at a lower wattage use
I like to use Shelves to make a dedicated mini-freezer for my kitchen to use, rather than a large freezer. You really only need one shelf for meat, one for eggs/animal products, one for vegetables, and one for meals. Meals take a while to expire under normal temps, so you can actually have a shelf in your dining room to cut down on foot traffic into the fridge. I usually have a separate barn (temp controlled fridge) for crop storage and a meat locker (freezer with butcher table) separate from the kitchen (large carcasses are stored whole rather than immediately butchered as this is more space efficient), and use the priority system to manage keeping the kitchen stocked. Shelves are amazing at making sure a ready supply of ingredients are located near where they are needed in general, such as a hay-dedicated shelf in an animal pen and another next to a butcher table for making kibble. This cuts down a lot of travel time.
I have gotten to the point where my freezer airlock is inside the freezer itself, not on the outside edge. Usually accomplish this by making it big enough for a short hall along one wall that exits outside. When you do this and only single wall it between this room and the freezer proper, then it seems like you don't lose a lot of heat since the airlock itself is kept cool by the temperature equalization with the freezer.
Oh, good point. I hadn't ever thought of the eq of having the airlock inside, but your'e right that it should work like that.
@@BjornStrongndarm i cant picture this design from your description but i wish i could it sounds cool
What about a triple door airlock? The middle one slow and the outer two fast doors. The middle one will stop your person long enough for the door behind them to close all the way.
2:00 Oh shit! That's what I was doing wrong. I built my base into a mountain and had the 'hot side' of the coolers going into a small cave, trapping the hot air inside. I was like holy shit, why aren't you bastards cooling my stuff! Thanks for the video, it really helped me out!
I usually use a 3x3, or 5x5 airlock (allows for mood-enhancing statues and similar props)...
...which, I guess, would allow the use fast doors without risking a fully open system?
It might. I'm not sure at what distances the fast doors no longer are all open together.
I hadn't thought of using statues like that for something pawns have to go through every day. That's a clever idea, I'll have to try that out!
Excellent work as usual!
Does the type of floor affect heating or cooling?
Maybe if there are enough questions you can make a video containing all of them from all your science videos.
You know, that's what I was intending to do -- make a video here going over follow-up questions from earlier videos. (I was thinking maybe for #10.) I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is 'no', but it would make great fodder for the follow-ups video!
Nothing in the definition files indicate that floor type has any effect
Not sure if someone asked this, but can you check on the next video the impact of using coolers in serial as opposed to parallel? I mean a room inside a room, you had a similar setup but with vents, what would happen if those are coolers as well?
Then you could have freezers deep within a mountain venting into a corridor which eventually runs to a series of coolers venting into outside.
I think someone else suggested that, yeah. I hope to do a coolers follow-up, and if I do, I'll definitely look at this then.
@13:45 your manual door average was -108/109 yeah? So manual doors (not auto) win then right?
Did I miss it or didn't you mention wall material? Does it make a difference what material the freezer walls are made from?
no.
not cloth lol
From the graph alone it looks like the ceiling loses heat as well as the walls. Larger rooms have fewer walls per tile, but all rooms always have one ceiling per tile.
Given that the slope is relatively shallow for rooms larger than 8x8 I would say that the walls aren't doing much given their resource consumption.
I'd hazard a guess that the resources for building the wall exceed the value of adding another cooler and necessary power capacity.
Something else to look into is if you have another room around your freezer if it would be better to:
1) Have 1 cooler for the outside room and 1 cooler for the freezer.
2) Have 2 coolers for the outside room cooling the freezer.
3) 2 coolers for the freezer.
From what I have seen from the test you have done it would seem that having the outside room cooling the freezer wouldn't work out well and as for the coolers in the freezer room they would have the benefit of cooling off the outside room.
But I wonder if having the outside room being at least partially cooled off will do more to help maintain the freezer rooms temp than just stuffing the freezer with more coolers?
plz do a 1.0 version.
the little exhaust rooms are not bugged , you just need a bigger room than just 1x1 , try at least 3x3 for 1 cooler that should be enough
Sorry, I just meant: Normally, a room with no roof should use outdoor temperature. But a 1x1 room doesn't use outdoor temperature. I was assuming that was a bug (why would a roofless room not use outdoor temperature?), but maybe it's intended behavior?
You're right that a larger roofless room will work fine. In fact, a 4x4 room with 5 unroofed tiles will use outdoor temperature, and will work too. (I hadn't tried 3x3 without roofs, but I'm not surprised they work.)
I typically use 3x1, and that seems to be the sweet spot. You can vent as much as you like into it (I use 3 coolers) and it is considered outdoor temp.
No, 1x1 rooms are still bugged. You can watch the temps "fluxuate" in a connected 1x1 room, 30->60, pulsing every second, for no reason, when next to a freezer an touching the outside world, with an outside temp of 90 and an inside temp of 0. It is as if the temps for "hot" and "cold" are two individual values, instead of being just one value, within each space. It has a "heat tick slot", followed by a "cooling tick slot", instead of just cooling by X-units, each turn. (Taking the average of both phases, instead of pushing UP on second #1, then cooling DOWN on second #2. In a large room, it is less noticeable, because the more "cells" you have, the more of a space-buffer you have. Having four coolers, in one space, you can have overlapping ticks for heating and the isolated cooling ticks. So one second it is 1, then 2, then 1, then 3, then 2, then 2, then 4, while heat is always every other second tick. A cooler only heats one block, the coolness has to travel to the walls and other blocks, at the same time, heat on the other ticks, is doing the same thing, from outside.)
In short, because each is running at the same time... they can all see 40 as the "base temp", when calculating the "new temp"... Instead of each one taking-turns, one seeing 40, the next seeing it 39, the next seeing it 38, and the last seeing it 37, followed by the heat-bleeding (one tick), of increasing it to 40 again, in one shot. Instead, they all see 40, or only two see 40, or three, {the bug}, and the final result of the change is only 1 degree from 4 coolers, or none {which makes it rise to 45, which is uncooled plus the 5 that leeched in}
The other design flaw, in code, is the fact that the hot output on the wall, comes back into the AC unit and the surrounding wall-blocks, because it has to bleed-out into the outside room blocks. (You only see the generic "outside temp", but this is why it fails in a stacked series, inside too.)
I know this video is somewhat old now, and there have been updates, but the largest I have been able to have a room without a hole in the roof is 12x12. I have tried larger, but they always leave a gap in the roof in the center. You said here that the largest without a gap is 18x18, and while that might have been true 3 years ago (not sure what version that was), it now seems (as of version 1.1, at least), that is no longer the case.
Alright, after your in and out test the wooden door and steel door were at -109, then at the end you say that the sandstone auto door is the best overall when it ranked in at -97. What you didn't test was the steel normal door vs the stone autodoor on walk through speed, if the normal door speed is relatively close to the auto-door, that would make wood or steel the best?
2:32 this is now changed and has no effect. It actually is the best thing to do as raiders go for coolers rather than your base entrance
Ah, videos like this make me want to subscribe for even more sciency goodness.
So I did.
Thank you! Welcome to the channel!
Thanx Bjorn as I learnt here and will try to apply at our next base :) Something you don't mention that I use: Make passive coolers all over the place the moment a heat wave is coming. Helps fridges, people and animals quite a bit. But we get 50+ degrees Celcius for a coupe days in our base. Imagine with 3k Meat if a Solar thingy occurs at same time?
sooooo useful!!! can't imagine how much time you put in... great job!
thank you very much. you saved a big research worth of tens of hours !!
In bottom left room at 12:20 temp is -105, at 12:47 temp is -94 already.
Why it heat up so fast? There was only one "door run".
It will be interesting to compare a single fast autodoor and regular doors with airlock. Is it really worthwhile to make an airlock?
Yeah, with no coolers running, when you're at about 125C warmer than the outside, even with double walls those rooms will heat up pretty fast. Suppose he room EQ is at something like 5C, which isn't crazy for that size room and temperature differential. Then the room heats up every 120 ticks = 2 seconds. If a single door run through a stone door airlock takes 4 seconds, there's your difference of 10C right there. (The last video went a lot more into these mechanics.)
I too wonder whether airlocks are worth it. In this scenario the difference was only a degree or two after 10 runs immediately in a row, and that's without a cooler running in the freezer trying to make up the difference. In a regular freezer, where you've got it set to like -5C, and if you've build it so that pawns aren't regularly pathing through it, you might not save enough to really make it worthwhile.
(On the other hand, if you have animals going in and out *constantly*, as I have had in some colonies, the airlock might be a real lifesaver. So I guess that's probably where the tradeoff lies -- in how much traffic your freezer sees.
Thanks.
Somehow I missed that initial temperature was -270 :)
So in 10 walks rooms heat up by ~160, in the last run by ~10, this makes sense.
For me the main conclusion is that difference caused by walking is about 5-8 degree. Or only 3-5% from total heat up. Pretty negligible difference for the most scenarios.
Thank you for the science!
5:00 if you say 24 hour do you mean the real world or the ingame time?
Ingame time.
just wanna ask uh.. the blue means cold and the red means hot right?
I realize this is an old video but jade auto-doors are said to be the fastest type of auto-door. Would it provide the same benefits as the stone auto-doors since they should be shut by the time the other is open?
OK, I tested this and they both seem to be open on a 2 space hallway, but going to 3 allows one to be closed.
If you put 2 or maybe 3 blocks between the air locks using auto doors, then you could get the benefit of having no movment be impeeded and keeping the air inside the cooler
Yeah, it might be worth seeing how long you have to make the corridor before you stop letting the hot in.
All the room have their corners cut. No 2x2 walls at each corners.
Wouldn't that effect the temperature?
what I wanted to know is if you sett the cool room to max cold how long does it last with no power during a heat wave?
It depends on size and ambient temperature and how many times colonists open the doors, but...about half a day, if you block all doors and have proper insulation(double walls and doors) in a place that isn't an extreme desert.
It usually isn't supposed to be problem, since solar flares don't last a lot more than a day and even foods with the shortest spoilage time last about three times that.
All in all, it's not something to be worried about. Heat waves can't really be beaten by vanilla coolers(hint: Hygiene) and solar flares don't last long, so food spoilage shouldn't be a problem.
If you can't restore power, then whatever cold you managed to trap in your walk in freezer will dissipate in a couple of hours, at best. Once your cooler stops, the temperature will rise rapidly until it is in equilibrium with the outside, regardless of what you do.
In short: Not long enough, but it's(mostly) okay.
P.S.: This is why it's a good idea to stockpile a couple thousand units' worth of rice and/or potatoes and keep a nutrient paste dispenser.
Sooner or later, you *will* get into a situation where you will need to persist despite the lack of available food gathering opportunities.
You get a raid with sappers, then a quadrum of toxic fallout, your crops get eaten by blight and then all your dedicated farmers come down with the sleeping sickness.
You will thank your lucky stars for having stockpiled an Armageddon's worth of tubers and a Noah's Ark worth of animal meat.
Why isn't the edge scroll working on the video?
I wonder how insulating a nutrient paste dispenser is vs the same freezer without one and double-thick walls? A common configuration.
very nice and in-depth tutorial on cooling
have you trie a freezer within a freezer ? the outer freezer is just to keep the inner freezer walls cool. usefull during heatwaves
according to your graph, the outside temperature is very much an influence on the cooling capability, so what if you make a room of 3x3 cooled by 1 or 2 cooler, with a single wall, then the room outside of that (surrounding wall with 1 air gap) is also cooled by 2-3 maybe more coolers, etc etc, see how cold you can get?
I tried that sort of thing -- it turns out to be just about equally effective as just using all those coolers in a room.
I mean, if you have a 3x3 room with one cooler into it, surrounded (more or less) by a 5x5 room with one cooler into *it*, the 3x3 room will get colder than if it was just a 3x3 room with a single cooler. But it will get slightly LESS cold than if you had just made the 3x3 room and used *two* coolers (which you had to do to make the setup I described anyway). So, it's balanced pretty well to make it hard to exploit.
Huh. I guess they changed how mountain temperatures change. Back in A14 and lower, any roofed wall tile automatically stabilizes to outside temp unless surrounded by an empty tile (with a mountain roof) acting as an air buffer. This meant most mountain freezers, their temp is constantly being influenced by the outside temp of the walls if there is no air buffer.
stone auto doors did not guess that, i was using one auto and one normal
I had not even considered stone auto-doors because of the slow down. TBH I only do steel auto-doors because it's very 'trekkie'!
The Trek factor is well worth an extra degree here or there!
Exactly...
if you had the doors spaced out more than one so the first door has time to shut than maybe the wooden doors would win
Then you'd have a larger area , so the room would equalize faster. This is optimal, although you might do a little better with one auto door and one regular door, would require more testing.
Hey, i have been wondering...
What affects the *chances of infection* ?
Yes! I'm hoping to get another medical episode done here in the not-too-distant future, and I'll have to remember to include something about this!
You tested up to 4 coolers, but I was wondering if keeps going? Obviously there is a limit to how many you can put on a room, but at what point does adding more coolers do more harm than good?
So, given what we've seen, I'm guessing that as the rooms get larger, you can put more coolers into them before you start losing cooling power. (Maybe some large rooms can take coolers indefinitely?) We already see this happen with 4 coolers at a 1x1 room and even a 2x2 room. I guess we could chart: for each nxn room, what is the number of coolers that get the lowest temp?
i wanna see that chart :)
Me too!
What about autodoor plus regular door
Hey, is it still viable in the end of 2021?
I wonder whether putting the airlocks in the corners does anything. I'd never done this until I was rearranging rooms and it was a way to maximise useful space. It is a peculiar airlock that I haven't seen elsewhere. After watching the temperature equalisation one, I wondered whether, by substituting the tile across the door with a wall, some of it is saves. I also wonder whether putting the coolers on the outer layer of wall does something. It is valuable in fridges since it gives an extra tile to put things in. Finally, I found out that rooms with 2 unroofed tiles make for effective vents indeed, but I wonder if it makes any difference to it being actually outdoors.
Good stuff here. I'm having a hard time envisioning exactly what you mean by putting the airlock in a corner, but I can see there might be some gain to be had there. And the point about coolers on the outside wall seems like a good one (I'm going to start using that) -- whether or not there's any gain, you get the extra space.
The only thing I was thinking with the 'vent-to-outdoors' is that there's never any risk of not venting fast enough, because the outdoors never heat up. You're right that there are other configurations that will work well too. I didn''t really look at that in detail, though. Would be interesting to look into it more.
It is a peculiar setup that I wouldn't have thought of if it hadn't showed up accidentally. it's having the inner airlock door at one of the tiles immediately adjacent to the corner, and using the dead space in the corner to run the airlock, so that you have an airlocked fridge in a perfect double walled square: i.imgur.com/dhHh0aS.png
Joan Carles Q Looks kinda ugly with the door sort of floating in the air, but the layout itself is actually extremely nice and compact.
a good idea is to use a fast wooden door inside the cooler and a slow stone door outside ... 3 tiles apart ... the cold stays in the room better and the airlock slows the person down enough to allow the inside door to close before the outside one opens ... trapping the best amount of heat or cold inside the building I prefer wooden inside and granite outside ... yeah always granite ... makes my cooler my panic room then
I actually don't use airlock to my freezer, it slows my pawns down too much, I rather stick there another cooler to keep it around -39°C all the time and 1 door doesn't really affect it. Maybe if I didn't have enough space for wind turbines/steam geysers/solar panels then I may use it with less coolers, but in heat wave you will need more coolers to keep your freezers below freezing point.
This is awsome man haha,
I want to share my experiece with my freezer too... i put an cooler in the airlock hall too (-30celcius), so it will reduce the heat loss when the door open, and make my freezer temperature consistent
That's some serious dedication to constant temperature. Can get costly, but it should certainly keep the warms down!
wondering if the airlock for the steel auto doors had been made 2-3 spaces longer, would the temp have been better then the stone doors? since the outside door would have time to close?
A number of people have been asking that. Sounds like I need to do a follow-up!
I was thinking about using two squares between the doors, with a jog to the left or right. So, go in the outer door, then one square left or right, and then in.
Surely the faster moving auto doors are better overall, as long as you have a long enough airlock so that both are not open at the same time.
Tnx for theses test.
What about cooling the sas access to lowest temp instead of the fridge? And use a sas access longer instead of 1x1 to maximise the closing speed effect and the sas effect?
I will say as a new player, the removed roof for a 1x1 room has been fixed, after 6 years I’d hope so lol.
Would having your coolers inside the room with a double walled chimney cause any issues (as long as it Isn't a single square chimney) Or would the double wall negate the heat produced by the coolers?
So, I think wYc7T imf had a similar suggestion here too. I suspect that by adding a chimney, you'll make the room less effective 'cause you're upping the number of walls and lowering the room size, and I'm not sure what advantage you'd get. But I could be wrong about that; if/when I run some more tests, I'll be including that one.
MrPandaCavalry It can be usefull for defending(no weakspot in the wall).Or you can wall the exaust with walls with no roof instead
Does the cooler work to heat some place (to act like radiator) in the same time that cool another place. Or we need radiator ? And what if we combine this?
Yes, it's a heater on the other side. I use this mostly for indoor plant growing to keep them little warmer then outside in winter.
Does the length of the gap between your airlock doors make a difference?
Well, it will make a small one insofar as the larger room will change heat levels slower, and if the tunnel is long enough it'll change which door patterns are better. But it's got to be fairly long before they really change, I think.
I'm concerned that the only thing making the stone autodoors the winners of your door comparison is their speed compared to the other autodoors. When you mouse over the regular door rooms they have the same temperature (not counting stone) as the stone autodoor room. So the final comparison should be between regular doors (wood and steel) and the stone autodoors. The regular doors have the advantage of not being slower in case they're out of power. Maybe a regular wooden door or regular steel door is preferable to a stone autodoor?
Yes, it is absolutely the speed, and you're right that when the power goes out they become the worst. IIRC, there is a *slight* improvement for stone autodoors over wood doors, but it's very small.
In my own playthroughs, I seldom-if-ever make autodoors, and always just put wood doors on my freezers. For whatever that's worth...
Autodoors are well worth it, the time saved in moving through them is good for high traffic rooms.
Especially for emergency scenarios when you have to respond to an immediate threat, that extra couple of seconds can be important in getting a few extra shots off against an incoming threat.
Very useful Rimworld science. Thanks!
I know this was made a while ago.. but the conclusion would be that for freezers normal wooden and steel doors are better than autodoors if you have such a short airlock?
Not better than stone autodoors, which are the same speed, IIRC. (But maybe better just because cheaper!)
What about a mix of an auto door and a regular door?
What about making a small room in the center of the freezer and putting the hot ends of the coolers there?
Also, I find your videos to be very interesting, please keep making them!
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm seeing why venting to a middle chimney would be better than just venting out a wall -- you're upping the amount of walls space and lowering the room size, while still having the same amount of coolers. But, like I said somewhere else on the thread, I'm thinking of doing a follow-up video where I check out a bunch of
these suggestions, and I can definitely throw this one into the mix.
Bjorn Strongndarm You can surround your cooler with other rooms though, i.e. you don't have to break the layout because of the chimney. It's also looks nice. Just to be clear: I'm not saying it'd be more efficient than venting out a wall, I'm rather interested in how much of a trade off in terms of temperature efficiency this is.
What about triple and double walls?
Have you considered studying some engineering on this? Or looking at the code and trying to figure out how the game mathematically handles the dynamic models between heat duty and temperature change?
I got a fun Idea, can you ever have enough coolers (or heaters) to heat the whole map? Or have any impact whatsoever.
Nope. You can only affect closed-off (and roofed) rooms. Otherwise the temperature just reverts to 'outdoor' and the coolers/heaters do nothing.
Awww shucks, no global warming in rimworld lol
Nah. You just have to do all your global warming during worldgen. ;P
One other test Freezer small room, freezer into big room, and or First freezer into a 'corridor room' single wall to the main freezer. (effectively making a freezer in a freezer with an airlock that surrounds the whole room rather then just one square.
I think I'm following, but I might be missing part of the picture. Does the 'inside' freezer have a cooler running into it?
You had an example where you had a freezer into a small room, with a vent to the main area.
The basic idea is to replace the vent with a second freezer, and compare that to two side by side freezers.
And to make that 'small room' bigger so it wraps around the entire main area (single wall) to further reduce temperature loss.
I was wondering what difference it makes if the air lock is made with adjacent doors, I.e. No air block we tweet them
I'm pretty sure what happens is that you have both doors open at the same time (b/c the first door is still open while you're walking into the second) so you lose more air than with the space in between. But when I do a follow-up, I should look at that, to be sure.
Thank you, I'd be interested to see the outcome
I was wondering if you'd done any math regarding movement speeds, ie jogger or fast walker or pets hauling things for you (or bionics, if you cover that sort of thing) and cooler airlocks?
Absolutely amazing!
There is more surface area when it's not a square but if you double wall does that really matter? Your last video did not test to see if there is a temperature difference between double triangle (odd shape) and normal triangle. Most likey I just miss understood something.
Actually, we did do that in the earlier video, towards the beginning. We had a bunch of 5x5, double-walled rooms, and some odd-shaped rooms also with 25 tiles, and the odd-shaped 25-tile rooms did a bit worse than the square ones. So yeah, it matters even for double-walling (and it's even *worse* if you're single-walling.)
Sounds like we should triple our doors.
What about Coolers in serial. Specialy for a warm biome.
Say you have +40C outdoors. You cool the indoor to +20. then cool the frezzers to -200C something.
Is that more efficient?
The coolers uses 200W and the heaters use 175. I tried using the coolers as a heat pump. It turned oun that the coolers only produced 150W of heat while producing 200W of cold.
This is the opposite to how it works in reality. That suggest to me that putting coolers in serieal you may reduce the amount of power that is cooled of for every step.
I guess this is kind of what i was trying to do when I had the little 'rooms' off to the side each being cooled down to 20C or so, and the bigger freezer in the middle cooling to way down. What I found was weird -- basically the opposite. The side-room coolers just turned off, because the big freezer was acting as a heat sink for them, and it only cost the freezer like one degree over what it would have been getting if it had just been double-walled.
What hapepns if you stack coolers?
like 2 or 3 in a row in a 1xX corridor, with (and without) a 1x1 space between the coolers.
W = Wall, H = Hot side, M = cooler Machine, C = Cool side, _ = Space:
---------------WWWWWWWWW
outside---HMC_HMC_HMC---Room
---------------WWWWWWWWW
So, I gave it a little test -- it's a little bit more efficient (more cooling power) than just having one cooler into the room, but it's a lot LESS efficient than just having three coolers into the room.
The reason is that each cooler in your line is blowing heat into the room next to it, and so the next cooler over has to work against that heat as well.
How about for next video, what type of workbenches or stuff like that will heat up a room inside? Stoves, deep drills, etc?
Ahh, good question. I'm pretty sure it doesn't say in the info screen -- maybe it should!
I'm sure you could do some tests to figure it out tho?
Oh, yeah. I was meaning, if it *was* in the info screen, it'd be pointless to do tests. But if it's not, well, gotta find out somehow!
fair enough loll
if steel auto doors are so fast, 2 spaces between them?
2 might not be enough, to be honest!
Thanks you. The game is out on PlayStation, this helped.
Great information, but I disagree with the open roof chimney. It worked fine for me in vanilla RW 10 through 18. Then too, my chimney is 2 to 3 tiles wide because I placed my coolers next to one another, and that may have made all the difference.
Not funny, punk
Could do a fast door on the outer air lock and a slow door on the inner
Works going in but not going out
Make the airlock 3 long for steel autodoors? What's the travel speed difference? ..ya know, in the name of Rimworld science
Thanks homie :) Very very helpful!! :D
Yo... vents work like this?
Do they still?
If so, I need to build my freezers differently. I have one big one for raw stuff and one for meals.
now they work so they try to make both sides the same temperature
Omg... You broke out the MATLAB graphs..... @_@ LOL!
I had two wind turbines to power 2 coolers and I couldn’t even get one to cool the room. I had a flashing power symbol. But my turbines were building power and my AC was taking power from the line. I thought the 2nd wind turbine would help power my few ACs get power :(
So Uranium doors would also be a poor choice because they are the fastest?
Oh, are they faster than wood? Didn't realize -- then, yeah, they'd be pretty bad, too. (And expensive!)
I love you right now. Thank you.
i keep my double doors back to back, is that not effective as an airlock?
I didn't test those ones, but my understanding is no, and for the same reason the wood autodoors weren't so good: both doors will have to be open at the same time, so you lose a lot of cold air. You need that block in between so one door can close before the other opens.
Thanks for the science !
can really hot or really cold temperatures from coolers/heaters be used in combat, like if you can make a killbox that's negative 50C
I'm pretty sure it's possible -- at least, I've heard of people doing it -- but I've never figured out the skill myself, so I'm probably not a very helpful person to ask.
There is no remote-controlled doors, as far as I know so it may not work. Intruders will just destroy your door, normalising temperature before it even harm them. Good Idea for a mod, though.
I saw a video where the player had made a long tunnel the raiders go into, then he had a colonist on the far side throw moltov's inside on carpet and wooden stuff to start a fire, then built walls at both ends of the tunnel, sealing it completely. Every raider died horribly as the temperature inside reached ridiculous levels.
+Adam funny idea }:¬)
+Midwinter Snow woow da bad bad boy ^o^
one side cools.
one side heats.
*done.*
I use a long airlock and triple doora
what if the outer door was fast and the inner door was slow?
I'll have to check that out...
actually it might work going in but not coming back out :(
if only there was a way to make the person stay in the airlock till the door behind them closed
There is a way! Longer airlock. Obviously ;).
Well, freezer walls is certainly a good one.
Nooooooo, I did the compartmentalized coolers! So much wasted component!
So.... More coolers?
Why does my air-condition looses power no matter how I build it
Because you touch yourself too often
Maybe somebody can help me.
I have a really good round with lost tribe. I explored the science and in theory i can build coolers. But in my buildingoptions i cant build it!! I just can build a heater and earlier things.. i tried it for hours and stared game new.. but i just cant build the fcking cooler... :(((
Yo, dawg, I heard you like coolers, so we put a cooler inside another cooler and... well, I don't know if it would work actually. I'm betting no.
This shit slaps wtf I love everything I just learned
I put my butchers table in my freezer too. Just takes a second to butcher, but this way they don't have to walk all over to get meat from a dead animal...or person.
if you put one behind another one it works a lot better since its cooling the hot air from the first one
Coolers are op, pls nerf. How tf is a tiny little window unit gonna chill something down to within three degrees of absolute zero?
Pulling a vacuum
I know im 11 months late but thats just a goal, it doesnt actually get to that point.
@@professionalfire3902 with enough coolers you can get that low
cool vid!
cool
4:14 31-4=27
Hi, sir, how about a two walls with an air between them? Something like this: i.imgur.com/lvdf58u.png I heard it's the best possible design for heat insulation.
So, I think in real life this is the best way to insulate heat. (That's how double-glazed windows work, for instance.) But I would expect that this is going to be less effective than just double-walling. The insulating room is going to contribute some extra heat to the main freezer just because of how the wall equalization is calculated. But I'm thinking of doing a follow-up video where I check out a bunch of these suggestions, and I'll definitely throw it into the mix. (NameGeneratorFailed's results suggest what's gonna happen, but we can still check it out.)
2:03 is... is that cat vomiting?!
im american can you put fahrenheit translations?
cant tell whats worse you putting so much time into figuring out a videogame or me watching you...
Um... I'm calling it a tie.