One thing I have noticed about sappers is their X-ray vision! If you have a mountain barrier shielding you they will often attack what seems to be a random part of it... and they 'uncover' a hidden area which means they are a LOT closer to your inner area than you had expected. Damn cheats! :)
That's a good point. The pathfinding algorithm just scores the path -- it doesn't bother to check whether the raider has any way to *know* about it. (The same way the raider *knows* to path around your turrets even if those turrets are hidden behind a wall.)
Just to follow up a year later, I only recently purchased the game. The sapper omniscience is still there and is a bit unfair. I had one break down an untouched compact steel deposit. It was a weak spot in my already weak defense line, but the sapper should not have had any way to know that I had mined it out from my side.
I had recently a sapper raid. Half of my people were on a trip outside of the base. They started diging through a mountain where it was thinner. Folks in the base were kinda shit fighters, my best pawns were on the way home. So i started building granite walls, to buy time, while the raiders digged from the other side. Everytime they dug deeper, there was new wall waiting. Eventually they gave up, even before my fighters could get back home.
That sounds like a comedy. Sapper:OH FOR FUCKS SAKE Bandits:Another wall? *sigh* it's the thirs time this month. Alright, screw this. WE'RE GOING HOME BOYS *Meanwhile, inside* Every colonist:*Smugly giggles while sipping psychoid tea*
From your colonists that was a very tense moment, for the raiders it was a nightmare of cosmic horrors, and for us it is a comedy. You can apply this for any thing in Rimworld.
Initial thought... Do doors count as blocking the turret's value the same way that walls do? If yes, you should be able to bait them into a killzone with turrets behind a "wall" of doors. Then set the doors to hold open and have a pawn run through them. Also would depend on if the sappers recalculate their path after certain events.
+Eric Larkin Ooh, I likes the cut of your jib, sir! I didn't think to test doors, but now I wish I had. As for pathing: They will wander and then repath after being hurt. But (a) the turrets can maybe take them down while wandering, and (b) if they're close enough to their destination it might not be worth it to them to path back outside of the turret. It might not work, but it's definitely worth checking out.
The only problem I can see with that is that you'd risk the pawn getting mowed down by crossfire from the turrets. Game needs a way to command doors to open/close without needing to walk through them, like fallout 4's workshop has.
Nishe Siel I agree, that should be a function with the autodoor tech which allows colonists to run through without having to touch it and slow you down. Idk, maybe a future update.
I used a strategy that I've actually never seen anyone use by exploiting artillery shell placement for chain bombing. Maybe you could look into the mechanics of it since I didnt fully test it out. I had a huge kill box at the front of my base (wait for it...) BUT I built a thin wall at the back of my base with a huge pathway for sappers that wanted to sneak in. Along that hallway I placed 1 artillery shell every here and there just so they would chain explode. You can place only 1 artillery per square by making it a deposit with highest priority and then forbidding that same square just so your colonist will place the next shell in another deposit instead of stacking 25. By the end of that pathway (closest to my base) I have an explosive trap that will trigger the chain explosions. By the time a raider steps on that one, all the others are already inside and along the pathway and 100% of them die EVERY time (given you have a long enough hallway). It requires a lot of micromanaging to build but once done you dont need to lift a finger to defeat the entire raid lol. Its too funny too watch them get obliterated by one wrong step xD
I don’t understand the way you get them to only place 1 per tile. I understand it would be doable if you’re making new shells and carting them over one at a time. But what if you already have a large stack? Is there any way to split them?
@@coops3600 Right-clicking on a stack gives an option to have the selected colonist pick up just part of that stack. That _might_ be from a mod though, and if so I don't remember which one.
BUT: If someone of a faction has walked into a trap, the faction will try to avoid that place the next time they raid you. So after they have found a trap, it will be caclulated for the paths cost.
Right, I had forgotten about that. A bit of googling tells me the following: (1) If some members of a raid survive a raid, any traps that raid triggered will be remembered. (2) The memory will last for 3600000 ticks, which is one in-game year. So the strategy I suggested can have problems. But I don't know they're going to be all that bad. First, notice that in the smallish raid I spawned, no more than half the traps were sprung. (And I used sandstone traps, which are low output -- if I had used something strong like steel, probably fewer would have sprung b/c people would have died faster.) So the same faction with a similar sized raid *and* spawning on the same side of the map can still path to the same trap area; they'll just hit different traps. Plus, the odds of getting two (or more) sappers, within a year from each other, all spawning on the same side of the base, are pretty low. You can also make the system safer by using more trapping/shooting spots -- maybe two a side instead of one, with some on either side of the killbox. It gets expensive, but I think that's just the game balance. As you get richer / more likely to get sapped, you have to spend more resources preparing for it.
David Campbell Click the I in the traps context menu. It should show the amount of damage there. Alternatively, you can take a look at the Rimworld wiki.
Essentially, stronger materials do more damage as traps: plasteel > steel > wood Sander's is right though, you click the 'I' for the trap to see what it does in damage, so you'll know what's best before you build them.
I just love how Sol goes to sleep just when the raiders enters the base at the beginning 0:35 :p This video was really informative. Thanks for making this, I'm surprised how mush I can still learn from this game even after almost 900 hours of play time.
I've had good success lining the inside of my walls with dumping stockpiles full of stone chunks. Like 4-8 tiles thick. Even if they do decide to go through the wall, they move really slow through the chunks and are easy targets.
Nice. I took this idea, and made a longer kill box right next to my standard one. The only difference is this one has no turrets, and is capped of on the outside end with walls. Then i placed some turrets around the base with exception of the line going down that hall and then and then right to my apartment building. So, normal raiders go into the normal killbox, and die. Sappers pop the wall 4 squares away, and go down the turretless kill hallway then leads to the houses but ultimately still ends in death. Because it is right next to the standard killbox, my guys can just change position in a few seconds. Hasn't had a problem yet.
once had a sapper ignore my 3-5 block walls (can't remember) to just dig straight through a mountain, they also exposed some compacted steel so that was pretty good
I’ve figured out some effective ways to counter sappers. One of the best strategies was using a base design where normal raids would enter through one of 3 sides (top / left / right), and a sapper raid would only come through the bottom (which was a small kill box). The reason behind why this works is because all my bedrooms are central, and for a sapper to cut through my walls - it’s considered too expensive due to my defences. So they come through the bottom. You can keep an auto door open on the bottom as well - and when a raid occurs, if it’s a normal raid you can shut the door, or if it’s a sapper raid you leave it and they come through bottom. The bottom kill box is still very effective, just not as lethal as the defence system defending the top / left / right
Great video! I think most of this is still valid in the final version of Rimworld, but it seems like if the lead sapper dies now, then the person with the next highest mining skill just takes over. Still, the pathing information is still incredibly useful.
@@josfb8 Have you ever played this game? Have you even watched the video? The raiders path to a completely out of site part of your base, of course they can see through walls. Raiders in RimWorld cannot see traps however (unless they are smart raiders or the same faction is attacking your base again)
All I do is make a moat on the open side of my base with no cover, long walls on each side, 2 turrent tables and snipers with cover shooting from afar. Then I have two doors for my melee fighters that the enemies pass to get to the fight. This is so when their raiders with good weapons try to flee I bring them in behind them to clean up and take their gear.
I have a weak point on my mines that sappers try to mine trough so I just put a door in my mine and whenever they do I just throw a few molotov cocktails in it and repeatedly repair the door.
I’ve noticed a silly thing about sappers. When they try to blow up things, they don’t account for friendly fire. I had a little gap in defenses in my colony, and for some reason (I don’t remember) I’ve decided to build a snaky corridor with doors in random places. Sometimes, when sappers target this corridor, the sapper will walk inside to attack one of the doors, but since there are a lot of turns he has to stay close to that door and will literally blow himself up. I haven’t yet tried to abuse that fact, but there might be a good strategy.
Haha, oh wow! I've noticed that the sappers don't try to avoid their friends when throwing explosives (you can even see it a bit in the little intro clip to this video, I think), but I've never seen one blow himself up. That's kind of awesome!
I assume the avoidance of turrets is also a factor when they drop in from the sky, since it seems like they always find the most awkward spot to drop in with no turret coverage. I don't know how I feel about it, just like with turrets they can't see behind walls, yet still path around. The best solution would seem that a system would be implemented where survivors would tell their faction where the turrets (and maybe even dead fall traps) were last spotted, and future attacks of that faction would now avoid that spot. So basically, to defend effectively, you'd have to rearrange your defences multiple times, or make sure there aren't any survivors and perhaps a trade-off, for sending prisoners back to their faction in exchange for good will. As it is now, I kinda feel it's a bit bs, and also think they should try to avoid deadfall traps to the extend just mentioned. It would also be interesting to know if Infestations also avoid turrets when spawning.
Guess this explains why a sapper went after a completely exposed ancient danger rather than my actual base. (I mined the steal from around one wall, exposing it)
once you get turrets set up to stop sappers the game will use more drop pod attacks. apparently, though i havent personally tested it, you can use the beacon to lure them into kill boxes by setting it outside and they will be more likely to drop on it
Great science as usual. Obvious questions : what about people ? Do sappers prefer room with people or without ? Do they take into account the firepower of the person inside the room? What about hospital beds ?
Oh, good followup questions. (I suspect the answer is 'no' to people, just because it would require more complex code, and the dev aims to make the code as simple as possible. But the hospital beds I didn't think to try.
I had a sapper event as my last raid on base builder; Phoebe Chillax, in alpha 17, shortly before I launched all 14 of my colonists. I just had the master/masters draft and run out towards where the sappers had started from and where they were going to. I let the grenader take out the wall, and then released my swarm of boars, muffalos, alpacas, pigs, cows, chickens, and even three elephants. The main, large swarm didn't even make it to the hole in the wall as some alpacas, boars, pigs, and my pregnant elephant sacrificed themselves soon enough, I captured three downed prisoners, and I think buried four corpses. A little while later, after I had launched, I accepted a refuge who turned out to be incapable of violence. The remnants of my previous swarm (and some infants) took out a larger raiding party than the one above, and only like one or two of the raiders were heading towards my killbox where the main group of animals were waiting for them. I'm new to Rimworld, but my opinion goes that animal handling makes for an underrated defensive strategy and can prove rather powerful (you don't have to hunt for fine meals afterwards, everyone can practice medicine, your colonists might not suffer any damage, and I would guess that more raiders just end up downed for more potential captures/conversions). Even more so with fast animal swarms like boars or powerful animals like cougars, bears, muffalos, elephants, rhinos, and I wouldn't even underrate alpacas. You might only need special zones during the raid for the animals, and perhaps you have the potential to defend all corners of the map without walls. Though, manhunter animal packs would make for my biggest worry, but a killbox can take care of that.
I found animal swarms extremely good at stopping manhunter packs to. Also boomrats can be good for triggering infestation honeypots; just keep an animal area in reserve and use it to direct a few rats into the honeypot, insects down/kill the rats and the fires incinerate the bugs.
They might path to it. If it's the only owned bed, they will. But I think they choose their pathing object as soon as they spawn in, so if you change bed ownership after they show up to get them to come to your killbox, it might not work.
i was messing around and i hit on an idea: sappers do not avoid turrets blocked by walls, but do sappers avoid turrets blacked by doors? i'm trying out a new kill box built around the idea that you build a wall of doors with turrets spaced out every other spot behind them. when the raiders get into range i step some of my colonists into the doorways directly in front of the turrets, the rest of my colonists use the unopened doors as cover and shoot through opened ones.
Great videos. I'd love to see one on raid size/frequency/composition. I know wealth affects size but it would be nice to know how much building wealth affects this versus item wealth (if there is a difference). I'd also like to know if the composition of the raids is influenced by any factors. By composition, I mean what gear the raiders carry, mech versus pirate raids, etc. There may not be any factors that affect frequency other than the storyteller, but this would be nice to know. I also have a couple of questions regarding things you've already covered: How are infestation affected by roof types? If I remove a thin rock roof can they still spawn on that tile? Regarding cover, when standing behind a wall, what is the shooting angle reduced to?
Hmm, good questions about raids -- probably they would require a code dive, though! I suspect there are too many variables to figure out by just running tests. (Still, doesn't mean I can't do some research.) Also, I think if you're *behind* a wall it doesn't affect your shooting angle at all -- it's when there's *another* wall that gets in the way that you have a problem. Like, when you have: XO X Where X = pawn and O = wall, there's no shooting penalty. But if you have X O X then sometimes you can't hit. (Although the details of this are fuzzy, and now that I'm typing this out, this seems not 100% right either. NEED MORE EXPERIMENTS!) On the infestations: They can't spawn at all unless they're under a thick roof (overhead mountain). If there were a way to remove thick roof you could stop infestations, but you can't, at least not without dev tools.
Maybe -- I think it's not that complicated. I mean, once you have a killbox (whatever it's like), it's just a matter of making sure you drop some turrets around your base but leave some un-turreted areas for the raiders to path. Then cover them with traps.
The idea is too guess the common target for sapper, and build a "specialized killbox" for them. I had used a similar idea, no need for complicative mechanic. I just welcome the first few sapper wave, see where they are most likely heading too then build an completely man-made, trap armed kill box separated from my main kill box. I think you only need one of this kind of killbox.
Got a question - How does Cassandra Classic's 'Steadily-increasing curve of challenge and tension ' work? Does it depend on wealth or how many good/bad events happened? Or is it just how much time passed in the colony?
Ooh, good question. From what I know it depends on a lot of stuff (time passed, wealth, how much good/bad has already happened, etc.) But I would have to look into things in a lot more depth for the details.
From what I've seen, playing with various modded factions and in vanilla too, the size of a raid (regardless of the faction) is mainly affected by colony wealthy and how long that colony has existed. 'Wealth' includes colonists, pets, and every other asset as your disposal though. Unfortunately, this doesn't take into account the state of that colonist (whether they're crippled or unable to fight at all), and it takes the Combat Readiness Check mod to fix that issue. In the base game, Wealth can be calculated unfairly, which is how raids constantly grow larger, even if half your colonists are sick/injured and can't fight at their full potential. Game doesn't even care if they're armed with great weapons or not. If an item is laying on the ground, it counts as being part of your colony wealth, as does any structure you claim or build, and any gear held by a colonist. The stupid part is that ALL items on the ground count towards Wealth, even ones outside of your base and not in stockpiles. Unless I'm mistaken, even the loot inside of ancient dangers counts towards Wealth, just not the hostile pawns or cryo caskets. Thankfully (most) storytellers do hold off on raids if you've had really terrible events recently, depending on the difficulty setting. Except Randy. Randy don't play by the rules.
Yeah, some people were pointing that out. I'm not too sure what to do about that. But I think if they have no real other option, they'll still path through a trap.
one thing about the traps/bombs is the AI cant see them unless their faction has previously triggered that trap/bomb so eventually the traps/bombs might become effective as deterrents
Yeah, people have pointed that out before. May need to rethink. (If you put the traps in a checkerboard pattern, it helps -- they CAN avoid the traps, they just won't unless they remember they're there.
I noticed something really odd in A15. Sappers didn't try to go through walls with different types of materials. So I had 1 layer of wood surrounding my base immediately followed by 1 layer of Granite. Sometimes they would throw at the granite, but after the granite blew up, they would give up on the wall. They wouldn't go through the wood. I haven't tried this on A16.
Hmm, I didn't try layering. That might do interesting things with their algorithms. I did try just making a big wall out of different kinds of materials all around, and they didn't seem to show a preference for which kind of wall they wanted to come to.
I am on a map seed called Excalibur and thanks tot he internet I have coordinates for a mountain map with an _huge_ mountain pocket that has but one way in. Thus far my only real problems, in terms of enemies anyway, are sapper attacks bypassing my trap-fields and maze and Centipedes just saying meh all the way into my turret assisted kill box. My point? This video is right up my street given this colony is my first successful colony which means I will have to take my knowledge to a non mountainous map once I build a start ship, Randy permitting, and one I have not pre-scoped out at that lol.
Big groups of sappers will struggle big time vs spaced wall lines, they tend to take cover once they break walls and hey end up hitting each other with the grenades, sometimes to the point they run back home on without you intervining. Once they break through couple of wall lines outside there would be 1-2 rangers and 2-3 mlee guys easy to be killed by your group.
That's some really good investigative work and VERY useful intel! Question tho: what are those two high-tech looking things (with orange circles inside) at north entrance to your base? 12:23
So you could effectively trick the AI into going for the stronger defended areas by using wooden walls and having your colonists blow them up as soon as the enemies are close enough for you to feel like it'd be most effective? Using IEDs for example to get the turrets line of sight and to blow up any that try to retreat once walls destroyed?
A strategy I use is unclaim home areas from my outside walls and it appears they avoid anything not claimed by me, so long as they have a way to get into my base through tunnels and such. Maybe look into that?
Hmm, interesting thought. But they will dig through unclaimed walls that are in their way -- I've seen them dig through an Ancient Danger, which is unclaimed...
Can you direct sappers in as you've shown, have a line of turrets in range BUT blocked by a simple wall, and when the sappers break through, deconstruct the walls and run away?
... maybe? I think they re-calculate their path on the way in, but I don't know if/when they re-target. They might switch paths and start going somewhere else if the walls come down too soon. But it's something I ought to test out.
Interesting, i hear about killboxes but with my base i build a perimiter wall with embrasures, bags, put turrets on all corners to give me some coverage and then i mass turrets around the entire base at chokepoints between buildings, to cover certain areas etc, and as a result i never get sappers yet instead i get very large raids that swarm my turrets and simply overpower them, and its at that point that i have to rely on mortars to damage enough raiders so they will flee as my 25 colonists in pa cant take out 500 raiders.
i have the same problem. i came to this video because i just had a sapper raid where 4 had a triple rocket launcher and 2 a doomsday launcher. it was a raid of 20+ if not more. i think it might be your colony wealth
So I built a great tomb for my rimworld characters and noticed that the zippers started to target it, its also the highest value room in my base, I think that may be what the sappers target more so than bedrooms
Another awesome video, thanks for sciencing this one. One question - do they avoid turrets based on the turret's range or just a certain radius? Since there are multiple types of turrets (especially with mods) it'd be good to know
Thank you! And a good question. They don't seem to care what material the turret is made out of, but I don't know how it will work with mods which have different turret styles.
Yeah, other people were saying something similar. Raiders remember traps for one year, so long as at least some of the original raiders escape. If there are lots of traps (as I have them here) they won't care. I'm not 100% sure how pathing get rebalanced for sappers when they factor in traps -- they'll try to avoid them, but I don't know if they'll cost around them. MORE TESTING IS NEEDED!
12:55 This doesnt work, which is why I came to this video. As soon as you add doors for your colonists to reset traps, the sappers just take out those doors and avoid the traps completely. So my problem is how do I create a spot covered with traps that my colonists can walk through safely.
well this video was made 3 years ago so the information may not be up to date but if u want them to reset the traps you could just mirco manage it by forcing them to do it in order
Yeah, they will do that -- I think they did in one of my trials, too. Not sure if they will in A17 though. Their AI has been updated to be a bit smarter in general...
the question is what happens if the turrets are behind doors, better said behind open doors istead of walls. does it count as a wall and so the turret doesnt count against cost of traspassing. that would be nice for the killbox with turrets.
Its easy to make it so they cant avoid traps such as mines you just build a straight line of mines around your base and watch them eat dirt as they splode from walking in to them.
Can you set up a couple of beds on the corner of the map and at the moment of the attack assign them to your colonists and put a bunch of turrets around that?
They ignore the traps because theyre invisible to the AI because the way youre supposed to use them by placing them right where the AI would route past.
I saw in the 21 width rock test that they chose a 1 thick wall instead, but what if it was a one thick wall with turrets? Or a two thick. I'm wondering about bases built into mountains. At what point will they attempt to dig into your rock base instead of going through your front door guarded by turrets.
There's not a single tipping point. It's just costs. Turrent-covered tiles are way more expensive than walls for them (rock or otherwise), but they might choose to go through a shorter path of more expensive tiles than a longer path of cheap tiles, because the many cheap ones add up to a higher cost than a few expensive ones.
I have question. Two questions. 1. Is there difference if worker is sitting or not? I mean if a... cook has chair next to stove does it make it different than cook without chair? 2. Have you already done RimWorld Science about this? I can't find it.
On 2: Nope, no science has been done on that to my knowledge. I'm not sure the answer to 1. I mean, I know having them sitting makes them happier (you can see the 'comfortable' buff in the Needs tab), but I don't know if it makes a different if for example your sculptor will make better quality sculptures in a chair.
why not have the colonist beds ourside of the main base? that way they will go straight for the beds where a buttload of turrets are. The real base isnt even getting attack then
So, my next question would be how hunters decide what animal to hunt if you have multiple selected. I keep having issue's with hunters going to the other side of the map to hunt a rat when there is another one marked for hunting next to the base. Also, do they try to avoid hunting animals like panthers? It would be great to know.
Ooh, that's a good question. It might have a lot to do with pathing generally. (Like: When a pawn is hungry, how do they decide where to go eat?) If you're really interested, you might want to look at Tynan Sylvester's video on how he programmed the 'regions' system for pathfinding: ruclips.net/video/RMBQn_sg7DA/видео.html. As far as avoiding hunting animals -- don't they only hunt animals you tell them to? Or do you mean: If a panther and a hare are both set to hunt, will they prioritize the hare?
![RimWorld Guide: Pathing & Collision - Make Raiders go where you want them! [1.5, 2024] Check Comment](/img/1.gif)
..... Finding out sappers path to beds is worth a thumbs up.
Owned beds, mind you. They tend to ignore the unowned ones.
@@BjornStrongndarm What if you change bed ownership during a sapper raid?
DamnDaimen they also path to high value locations
One thing I have noticed about sappers is their X-ray vision! If you have a mountain barrier shielding you they will often attack what seems to be a random part of it... and they 'uncover' a hidden area which means they are a LOT closer to your inner area than you had expected. Damn cheats! :)
That's a good point. The pathfinding algorithm just scores the path -- it doesn't bother to check whether the raider has any way to *know* about it. (The same way the raider *knows* to path around your turrets even if those turrets are hidden behind a wall.)
yeah, but hopefully they expose machines and get killed :)
I've had them take out most of the ancient evil, and all of the raiders died off.
Jimboola oh hell yeah. It's pretty annoying
Just to follow up a year later, I only recently purchased the game. The sapper omniscience is still there and is a bit unfair. I had one break down an untouched compact steel deposit. It was a weak spot in my already weak defense line, but the sapper should not have had any way to know that I had mined it out from my side.
I had recently a sapper raid. Half of my people were on a trip outside of the base. They started diging through a mountain where it was thinner. Folks in the base were kinda shit fighters, my best pawns were on the way home. So i started building granite walls, to buy time, while the raiders digged from the other side. Everytime they dug deeper, there was new wall waiting. Eventually they gave up, even before my fighters could get back home.
That sounds like a comedy.
Sapper:OH FOR FUCKS SAKE
Bandits:Another wall? *sigh* it's the thirs time this month. Alright, screw this. WE'RE GOING HOME BOYS
*Meanwhile, inside*
Every colonist:*Smugly giggles while sipping psychoid tea*
There is anotha!
From your colonists that was a very tense moment, for the raiders it was a nightmare of cosmic horrors, and for us it is a comedy. You can apply this for any thing in Rimworld.
It's not that they ignore traps, they just don't see them.
I understood your name reference.
Although I'm sure on THIS thread, most people do, so... there ya go.
unless the same faction attacks multiple times, then they sometimes know about your traps...
And they do know turrets are there even behind walls right? Dumbass
Nitpicking comment of the year
@@kanavkohli794 they recon your base with satellites before coming.
So great to see small youtubers doing great content!
Thanks, man -- I appreciate the kind words!
STOP ASKING ME TO CHANGE MY NAME GOOGLE! Hdfgffggcdevn ttvrhgjj'😕😕😕😕😕😢😔😛😛😖😨😨😨😖😨
Initial thought... Do doors count as blocking the turret's value the same way that walls do? If yes, you should be able to bait them into a killzone with turrets behind a "wall" of doors. Then set the doors to hold open and have a pawn run through them. Also would depend on if the sappers recalculate their path after certain events.
+Eric Larkin Ooh, I likes the cut of your jib, sir! I didn't think to test doors, but now I wish I had.
As for pathing: They will wander and then repath after being hurt. But (a) the turrets can maybe take them down while wandering, and (b) if they're close enough to their destination it might not be worth it to them to path back outside of the turret. It might not work, but it's definitely worth checking out.
Glad someone asked this, I was curious about this too. It'd be fun to give the sappers a nasty surprise
"hehehe, they left a bunch of doors open... OH SHI- *gunfire* "
The only problem I can see with that is that you'd risk the pawn getting mowed down by crossfire from the turrets. Game needs a way to command doors to open/close without needing to walk through them, like fallout 4's workshop has.
Nishe Siel I agree, that should be a function with the autodoor tech which allows colonists to run through without having to touch it and slow you down. Idk, maybe a future update.
I used a strategy that I've actually never seen anyone use by exploiting artillery shell placement for chain bombing. Maybe you could look into the mechanics of it since I didnt fully test it out. I had a huge kill box at the front of my base (wait for it...) BUT I built a thin wall at the back of my base with a huge pathway for sappers that wanted to sneak in. Along that hallway I placed 1 artillery shell every here and there just so they would chain explode. You can place only 1 artillery per square by making it a deposit with highest priority and then forbidding that same square just so your colonist will place the next shell in another deposit instead of stacking 25. By the end of that pathway (closest to my base) I have an explosive trap that will trigger the chain explosions. By the time a raider steps on that one, all the others are already inside and along the pathway and 100% of them die EVERY time (given you have a long enough hallway). It requires a lot of micromanaging to build but once done you dont need to lift a finger to defeat the entire raid lol. Its too funny too watch them get obliterated by one wrong step xD
Sounds like a lot of fun. I might have to try it in my own base! Also, gets around the problem of raiders remembering traps when they flee, too...
That's genius for any kind of raid!
What kind of walls do you recommend?
I don’t understand the way you get them to only place 1 per tile. I understand it would be doable if you’re making new shells and carting them over one at a time. But what if you already have a large stack? Is there any way to split them?
@@coops3600 Right-clicking on a stack gives an option to have the selected colonist pick up just part of that stack. That _might_ be from a mod though, and if so I don't remember which one.
BUT: If someone of a faction has walked into a trap, the faction will try to avoid that place the next time they raid you. So after they have found a trap, it will be caclulated for the paths cost.
Right, I had forgotten about that. A bit of googling tells me the following:
(1) If some members of a raid survive a raid, any traps that raid triggered will be remembered.
(2) The memory will last for 3600000 ticks, which is one in-game year.
So the strategy I suggested can have problems. But I don't know they're going to be all that bad. First, notice that in the smallish raid I spawned, no more than half the traps were sprung. (And I used sandstone traps, which are low output -- if I had used something strong like steel, probably fewer would have sprung b/c people would have died faster.) So the same faction with a similar sized raid *and* spawning on the same side of the map can still path to the same trap area; they'll just hit different traps. Plus, the odds of getting two (or more) sappers, within a year from each other, all spawning on the same side of the base, are pretty low.
You can also make the system safer by using more trapping/shooting spots -- maybe two a side instead of one, with some on either side of the killbox.
It gets expensive, but I think that's just the game balance. As you get richer / more likely to get sapped, you have to spend more resources preparing for it.
How do I see how much damage different material traps make? I've been using wood/bamboo which sounds like a mistake.
David Campbell Click the I in the traps context menu. It should show the amount of damage there. Alternatively, you can take a look at the Rimworld wiki.
Essentially, stronger materials do more damage as traps:
plasteel > steel > wood
Sander's is right though, you click the 'I' for the trap to see what it does in damage, so you'll know what's best before you build them.
Yea, traps count as sharp damage.
I just love how Sol goes to sleep just when the raiders enters the base at the beginning 0:35 :p
This video was really informative. Thanks for making this, I'm surprised how mush I can still learn from this game even after almost 900 hours of play time.
Yeah, Sol's little "Im'a stroll through a firefight and get my sleep on" cracked me up!
And thanks for the kind words! I really do appreciate them.
I've had good success lining the inside of my walls with dumping stockpiles full of stone chunks. Like 4-8 tiles thick. Even if they do decide to go through the wall, they move really slow through the chunks and are easy targets.
This is the best rimworld guide video I've ever seen.
I like using a comatose colonist to mark a bed outside the main base, inside a room, and riddled with traps.
Nice. I took this idea, and made a longer kill box right next to my standard one. The only difference is this one has no turrets, and is capped of on the outside end with walls. Then i placed some turrets around the base with exception of the line going down that hall and then and then right to my apartment building. So, normal raiders go into the normal killbox, and die. Sappers pop the wall 4 squares away, and go down the turretless kill hallway then leads to the houses but ultimately still ends in death. Because it is right next to the standard killbox, my guys can just change position in a few seconds. Hasn't had a problem yet.
once had a sapper ignore my 3-5 block walls (can't remember) to just dig straight through a mountain, they also exposed some compacted steel so that was pretty good
those walls were XTRA THICC
thats what makes the furnace trap defense so deadly. no turrets, dont even need traps. (except maybe an incendiary IED to start the fire inside.
Wow Bjorn this science is top-notch. I really appreciate the effort you put into these videos. Keep up the great work man.
Thanks, man. I really appreciate the kind words.
finaly i wanted such a video for soooooo Long
12:04 The name of the sap leader is "Engie, Engineer"... THE ENGINEER IS SAPPING MAH SENTRY!... wait what? o.o
That engineer is a spy! *baps*
What's funny is that in real life, a "Combat Engineer" is actually the guy who blows up walls.
wow thanks for explaining!
You're welcome!
I've had sappers go through like 10 mountain tiles and 2 wall tiles instead of 3 wooden walls and 2 granite
Sappers are just so strange.
I’ve figured out some effective ways to counter sappers. One of the best strategies was using a base design where normal raids would enter through one of 3 sides (top / left / right), and a sapper raid would only come through the bottom (which was a small kill box). The reason behind why this works is because all my bedrooms are central, and for a sapper to cut through my walls - it’s considered too expensive due to my defences. So they come through the bottom. You can keep an auto door open on the bottom as well - and when a raid occurs, if it’s a normal raid you can shut the door, or if it’s a sapper raid you leave it and they come through bottom. The bottom kill box is still very effective, just not as lethal as the defence system defending the top / left / right
Thanks Bahroo
Great video!
I think most of this is still valid in the final version of Rimworld, but it seems like if the lead sapper dies now, then the person with the next highest mining skill just takes over. Still, the pathing information is still incredibly useful.
I'm curious how accurate this still is after 1.3's rework of sappers.
I cam confirm 100% that they still ignore IEDs
Very informative, didn't know about the owned beds.
Well done. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I was going about defences all wrong.
They ignore traps because they don't know they're there mate
And that's why they call em traps.
And they do know turrets are there even behind walls right? Dumbass
@@josfb8 Have you ever played this game? Have you even watched the video? The raiders path to a completely out of site part of your base, of course they can see through walls. Raiders in RimWorld cannot see traps however (unless they are smart raiders or the same faction is attacking your base again)
Why are you calling everyone dumbasses?
@@yancieb he cant handle the truth he is one
All I do is make a moat on the open side of my base with no cover, long walls on each side, 2 turrent tables and snipers with cover shooting from afar. Then I have two doors for my melee fighters that the enemies pass to get to the fight. This is so when their raiders with good weapons try to flee I bring them in behind them to clean up and take their gear.
8:28 I watched this without checking the date and after I did I was like "So THAT'S why I can't place traps next to each other!"
I have a weak point on my mines that sappers try to mine trough so I just put a door in my mine and whenever they do I just throw a few molotov cocktails in it and repeatedly repair the door.
I’ve noticed a silly thing about sappers. When they try to blow up things, they don’t account for friendly fire. I had a little gap in defenses in my colony, and for some reason (I don’t remember) I’ve decided to build a snaky corridor with doors in random places. Sometimes, when sappers target this corridor, the sapper will walk inside to attack one of the doors, but since there are a lot of turns he has to stay close to that door and will literally blow himself up. I haven’t yet tried to abuse that fact, but there might be a good strategy.
Haha, oh wow! I've noticed that the sappers don't try to avoid their friends when throwing explosives (you can even see it a bit in the little intro clip to this video, I think), but I've never seen one blow himself up. That's kind of awesome!
I assume the avoidance of turrets is also a factor when they drop in from the sky, since it seems like they always find the most awkward spot to drop in with no turret coverage.
I don't know how I feel about it, just like with turrets they can't see behind walls, yet still path around.
The best solution would seem that a system would be implemented where survivors would tell their faction where the turrets (and maybe even dead fall traps) were last spotted, and future attacks of that faction would now avoid that spot.
So basically, to defend effectively, you'd have to rearrange your defences multiple times, or make sure there aren't any survivors and perhaps a trade-off, for sending prisoners back to their faction in exchange for good will.
As it is now, I kinda feel it's a bit bs, and also think they should try to avoid deadfall traps to the extend just mentioned.
It would also be interesting to know if Infestations also avoid turrets when spawning.
Great, informative, high quality video. Keep up the masterworks!
I was playing Rimworld and using this as background and when I heard that raid noise in the video I legit had a mini heart attack
Hahah! RimWorld Science(TM) cannot be held responsible in the event of cardiac arrest from mis-management of our resources. ;P
Guess this explains why a sapper went after a completely exposed ancient danger rather than my actual base. (I mined the steal from around one wall, exposing it)
7:58 *Casually erases a man from existence*
once you get turrets set up to stop sappers the game will use more drop pod attacks. apparently, though i havent personally tested it, you can use the beacon to lure them into kill boxes by setting it outside and they will be more likely to drop on it
you only need one side with the sapper traps and should make the trap area bigger for larger raids that eventually come
Great science as usual. Obvious questions : what about people ? Do sappers prefer room with people or without ? Do they take into account the firepower of the person inside the room? What about hospital beds ?
Oh, good followup questions. (I suspect the answer is 'no' to people, just because it would require more complex code, and the dev aims to make the code as simple as possible. But the hospital beds I didn't think to try.
I had a sapper event as my last raid on base builder; Phoebe Chillax, in alpha 17, shortly before I launched all 14 of my colonists. I just had the master/masters draft and run out towards where the sappers had started from and where they were going to. I let the grenader take out the wall, and then released my swarm of boars, muffalos, alpacas, pigs, cows, chickens, and even three elephants. The main, large swarm didn't even make it to the hole in the wall as some alpacas, boars, pigs, and my pregnant elephant sacrificed themselves soon enough, I captured three downed prisoners, and I think buried four corpses.
A little while later, after I had launched, I accepted a refuge who turned out to be incapable of violence. The remnants of my previous swarm (and some infants) took out a larger raiding party than the one above, and only like one or two of the raiders were heading towards my killbox where the main group of animals were waiting for them.
I'm new to Rimworld, but my opinion goes that animal handling makes for an underrated defensive strategy and can prove rather powerful (you don't have to hunt for fine meals afterwards, everyone can practice medicine, your colonists might not suffer any damage, and I would guess that more raiders just end up downed for more potential captures/conversions). Even more so with fast animal swarms like boars or powerful animals like cougars, bears, muffalos, elephants, rhinos, and I wouldn't even underrate alpacas. You might only need special zones during the raid for the animals, and perhaps you have the potential to defend all corners of the map without walls. Though, manhunter animal packs would make for my biggest worry, but a killbox can take care of that.
I found animal swarms extremely good at stopping manhunter packs to. Also boomrats can be good for triggering infestation honeypots; just keep an animal area in reserve and use it to direct a few rats into the honeypot, insects down/kill the rats and the fires incinerate the bugs.
I think it's just because it's way harder to replace and takes much more time, even if less resources
What happens if you put a bed in the killbox?
They might path to it. If it's the only owned bed, they will. But I think they choose their pathing object as soon as they spawn in, so if you change bed ownership after they show up to get them to come to your killbox, it might not work.
i was messing around and i hit on an idea: sappers do not avoid turrets blocked by walls, but do sappers avoid turrets blacked by doors? i'm trying out a new kill box built around the idea that you build a wall of doors with turrets spaced out every other spot behind them. when the raiders get into range i step some of my colonists into the doorways directly in front of the turrets, the rest of my colonists use the unopened doors as cover and shoot through opened ones.
Hmm, good question. I should check this out when I get a chance. If you try it, let me know how it works!
Dude.. This video is incredibly insightful. Thank you for sharing. I'll give you my sub just for this.
Great videos. I'd love to see one on raid size/frequency/composition. I know wealth affects size but it would be nice to know how much building wealth affects this versus item wealth (if there is a difference). I'd also like to know if the composition of the raids is influenced by any factors. By composition, I mean what gear the raiders carry, mech versus pirate raids, etc. There may not be any factors that affect frequency other than the storyteller, but this would be nice to know. I also have a couple of questions regarding things you've already covered: How are infestation affected by roof types? If I remove a thin rock roof can they still spawn on that tile? Regarding cover, when standing behind a wall, what is the shooting angle reduced to?
Hmm, good questions about raids -- probably they would require a code dive, though! I suspect there are too many variables to figure out by just running tests. (Still, doesn't mean I can't do some research.) Also, I think if you're *behind* a wall it doesn't affect your shooting angle at all -- it's when there's *another* wall that gets in the way that you have a problem. Like, when you have:
XO X
Where X = pawn and O = wall, there's no shooting penalty. But if you have
X
O
X
then sometimes you can't hit. (Although the details of this are fuzzy, and now that I'm typing this out, this seems not 100% right either. NEED MORE EXPERIMENTS!)
On the infestations: They can't spawn at all unless they're under a thick roof (overhead mountain). If there were a way to remove thick roof you could stop infestations, but you can't, at least not without dev tools.
This is quite a brilliant design! Too bad it's so complicated. Rigging up this kind of killbox is pretty tough.
Maybe -- I think it's not that complicated. I mean, once you have a killbox (whatever it's like), it's just a matter of making sure you drop some turrets around your base but leave some un-turreted areas for the raiders to path. Then cover them with traps.
The idea is too guess the common target for sapper, and build a "specialized killbox" for them. I had used a similar idea, no need for complicative mechanic. I just welcome the first few sapper wave, see where they are most likely heading too then build an completely man-made, trap armed kill box separated from my main kill box. I think you only need one of this kind of killbox.
Doble walls with a space in the middle. Fill the middle space with turrets 😂
Got a question - How does Cassandra Classic's 'Steadily-increasing curve of challenge and tension ' work? Does it depend on wealth or how many good/bad events happened? Or is it just how much time passed in the colony?
Ooh, good question. From what I know it depends on a lot of stuff (time passed, wealth, how much good/bad has already happened, etc.) But I would have to look into things in a lot more depth for the details.
Alright, Thanks a lot for this video, Explained a lot and I learned some stuff!
From what I've seen, playing with various modded factions and in vanilla too, the size of a raid (regardless of the faction) is mainly affected by colony wealthy and how long that colony has existed. 'Wealth' includes colonists, pets, and every other asset as your disposal though. Unfortunately, this doesn't take into account the state of that colonist (whether they're crippled or unable to fight at all), and it takes the Combat Readiness Check mod to fix that issue.
In the base game, Wealth can be calculated unfairly, which is how raids constantly grow larger, even if half your colonists are sick/injured and can't fight at their full potential. Game doesn't even care if they're armed with great weapons or not. If an item is laying on the ground, it counts as being part of your colony wealth, as does any structure you claim or build, and any gear held by a colonist. The stupid part is that ALL items on the ground count towards Wealth, even ones outside of your base and not in stockpiles.
Unless I'm mistaken, even the loot inside of ancient dangers counts towards Wealth, just not the hostile pawns or cryo caskets. Thankfully (most) storytellers do hold off on raids if you've had really terrible events recently, depending on the difficulty setting. Except Randy. Randy don't play by the rules.
@ZakTheFallen There is one exception, floors don't count to the Wealth of a colonie. So it's a good idea to spend money in goldtiles ;)
@@difictly1 i actually prefer randy random he often sends cargo pods in an easy difficulty
Fantastic vid as always
Thank you!
one thing you overlooked factions remember trap locations so first time they will ignore traps but next time they will try and avoid them
Yeah, some people were pointing that out. I'm not too sure what to do about that. But I think if they have no real other option, they'll still path through a trap.
one thing about the traps/bombs is the AI cant see them unless their faction has previously triggered that trap/bomb
so eventually the traps/bombs might become effective as deterrents
Yeah, people have pointed that out before. May need to rethink.
(If you put the traps in a checkerboard pattern, it helps -- they CAN avoid the traps, they just won't unless they remember they're there.
I noticed something really odd in A15. Sappers didn't try to go through walls with different types of materials. So I had 1 layer of wood surrounding my base immediately followed by 1 layer of Granite. Sometimes they would throw at the granite, but after the granite blew up, they would give up on the wall. They wouldn't go through the wood. I haven't tried this on A16.
Hmm, I didn't try layering. That might do interesting things with their algorithms. I did try just making a big wall out of different kinds of materials all around, and they didn't seem to show a preference for which kind of wall they wanted to come to.
I am on a map seed called Excalibur and thanks tot he internet I have coordinates for a mountain map with an _huge_ mountain pocket that has but one way in. Thus far my only real problems, in terms of enemies anyway, are sapper attacks bypassing my trap-fields and maze and Centipedes just saying meh all the way into my turret assisted kill box.
My point? This video is right up my street given this colony is my first successful colony which means I will have to take my knowledge to a non mountainous map once I build a start ship, Randy permitting, and one I have not pre-scoped out at that lol.
Big groups of sappers will struggle big time vs spaced wall lines, they tend to take cover once they break walls and hey end up hitting each other with the grenades, sometimes to the point they run back home on without you intervining.
Once they break through couple of wall lines outside there would be 1-2 rangers and 2-3 mlee guys easy to be killed by your group.
Hmm. I like the sound of that...
you could make a path of land 1 wide and then ? long with traps and then have turrets coverage not touch it but be right next to it
this is an awesome series idea
Thanks -- glad you like it!
That's some really good investigative work and VERY useful intel!
Question tho: what are those two high-tech looking things (with orange circles inside) at north entrance to your base? 12:23
they don´t see traps.
thats why i got mods for that!!
just to make my life more difficult
still a good video and series
Subscribed, this is just so cool!
Thanks, and welcome to the channel!
7:55 ok noted for our border walls :3
Just keep a psychic shock or insanity lance in case of sappers. They don't come that often to make your defences around them.
Good job. I learned a lot from this.
So you could effectively trick the AI into going for the stronger defended areas by using wooden walls and having your colonists blow them up as soon as the enemies are close enough for you to feel like it'd be most effective? Using IEDs for example to get the turrets line of sight and to blow up any that try to retreat once walls destroyed?
I feel physical pain watching youtubers individually order colonists to positions without Achtung
A strategy I use is unclaim home areas from my outside walls and it appears they avoid anything not claimed by me, so long as they have a way to get into my base through tunnels and such. Maybe look into that?
Hmm, interesting thought.
But they will dig through unclaimed walls that are in their way -- I've seen them dig through an Ancient Danger, which is unclaimed...
Make a video about Luiferium. It's awesome. In particular, luciferium given to animals, like bears, or turtles.
Thanks for the idea!
0:36 "ooo fuck dis shit. imma go sleep"
"hey keep it down"
Can you direct sappers in as you've shown, have a line of turrets in range BUT blocked by a simple wall, and when the sappers break through, deconstruct the walls and run away?
... maybe? I think they re-calculate their path on the way in, but I don't know if/when they re-target. They might switch paths and start going somewhere else if the walls come down too soon. But it's something I ought to test out.
1: Make beds close to front of base close to kill box.
2: place turrets close to double walls around base except for kill box
3: profit?
What do you habe to swich to show.colorful paths in rimworld 1.1
thank you, this information will help
You're welcome! Glad it's helpful to you!
Interesting, i hear about killboxes but with my base i build a perimiter wall with embrasures, bags, put turrets on all corners to give me some coverage and then i mass turrets around the entire base at chokepoints between buildings, to cover certain areas etc, and as a result i never get sappers yet instead i get very large raids that swarm my turrets and simply overpower them, and its at that point that i have to rely on mortars to damage enough raiders so they will flee as my 25 colonists in pa cant take out 500 raiders.
i have the same problem. i came to this video because i just had a sapper raid where 4 had a triple rocket launcher and 2 a doomsday launcher. it was a raid of 20+ if not more. i think it might be your colony wealth
So I built a great tomb for my rimworld characters and noticed that the zippers started to target it, its also the highest value room in my base, I think that may be what the sappers target more so than bedrooms
How do you show the rainbow algorithm? I tried with draw paths on but it's not showing
me too, but it's show me just sometimes
Another awesome video, thanks for sciencing this one. One question - do they avoid turrets based on the turret's range or just a certain radius? Since there are multiple types of turrets (especially with mods) it'd be good to know
Thank you! And a good question. They don't seem to care what material the turret is made out of, but I don't know how it will work with mods which have different turret styles.
Great video! Still relevant^^
In 2:45 I don't know if you have auto tone or you just have a beautiful voice
I think they don't care about traps since they didn't know they were there.
what if a earlier raid set them off the next raid may avoid THEM
Yeah, other people were saying something similar. Raiders remember traps for one year, so long as at least some of the original raiders escape. If there are lots of traps (as I have them here) they won't care. I'm not 100% sure how pathing get rebalanced for sappers when they factor in traps -- they'll try to avoid them, but I don't know if they'll cost around them.
MORE TESTING IS NEEDED!
12:55 This doesnt work, which is why I came to this video. As soon as you add doors for your colonists to reset traps, the sappers just take out those doors and avoid the traps completely. So my problem is how do I create a spot covered with traps that my colonists can walk through safely.
well this video was made 3 years ago so the information may not be up to date but if u want them to reset the traps you could just mirco manage it by forcing them to do it in order
"here i add thick walls nope he is digging lets add more walls hmm I NEED MORE WALLS!"
I dunno why but my last run all the sappers kept running into my killbox which was reaaaally convenient because they were but normal raid :D
once in a mountain map, sappers drilled into the mountain, and released the ancient danger
Yeah, they will do that -- I think they did in one of my trials, too.
Not sure if they will in A17 though. Their AI has been updated to be a bit smarter in general...
the question is what happens if the turrets are behind doors, better said behind open doors istead of walls. does it count as a wall and so the turret doesnt count against cost of traspassing. that would be nice for the killbox with turrets.
How does doors effect the walls. Do they alter the cost for stalkers? would 20 doors be as good as 20 thick walls?
7:42 If it not because of rock, why don't you add those with normal walls?
Its easy to make it so they cant avoid traps such as mines you just build a straight line of mines around your base and watch them eat dirt as they splode from walking in to them.
Would love to see the same test done with the current release version. V1.0.2408
Can you set up a couple of beds on the corner of the map and at the moment of the attack assign them to your colonists and put a bunch of turrets around that?
Do you know what raiders are more willing to path over, deadfall traps or turret gunfire?
They ignore the traps because theyre invisible to the AI because the way youre supposed to use them by placing them right where the AI would route past.
I saw in the 21 width rock test that they chose a 1 thick wall instead, but what if it was a one thick wall with turrets? Or a two thick. I'm wondering about bases built into mountains. At what point will they attempt to dig into your rock base instead of going through your front door guarded by turrets.
There's not a single tipping point. It's just costs. Turrent-covered tiles are way more expensive than walls for them (rock or otherwise), but they might choose to go through a shorter path of more expensive tiles than a longer path of cheap tiles, because the many cheap ones add up to a higher cost than a few expensive ones.
I have question. Two questions.
1. Is there difference if worker is sitting or not? I mean if a... cook has chair next to stove does it make it different than cook without chair?
2. Have you already done RimWorld Science about this? I can't find it.
On 2: Nope, no science has been done on that to my knowledge. I'm not sure the answer to 1. I mean, I know having them sitting makes them happier (you can see the 'comfortable' buff in the Needs tab), but I don't know if it makes a different if for example your sculptor will make better quality sculptures in a chair.
Ok, thanks
Place more turrets in areas you don't want em to go to funnel them to your KB with some turrets
You are awesome!!
Thanks!
why not have the colonist beds ourside of the main base? that way they will go straight for the beds where a buttload of turrets are. The real base isnt even getting attack then
How about hiding turrets behind closed doors and opening them when the enemy reaches your base?
You can definitely do that. The hard part is opening the doors fast enough and at the right time (and without getting caught in crossfire).
nice set up nice sound :D
What happens if the entirety of your base is surrounded by 20+ thick walls? Will they just not attack, or will they power through the nearest one?
So, my next question would be how hunters decide what animal to hunt if you have multiple selected. I keep having issue's with hunters going to the other side of the map to hunt a rat when there is another one marked for hunting next to the base. Also, do they try to avoid hunting animals like panthers? It would be great to know.
Ooh, that's a good question. It might have a lot to do with pathing generally. (Like: When a pawn is hungry, how do they decide where to go eat?) If you're really interested, you might want to look at Tynan Sylvester's video on how he programmed the 'regions' system for pathfinding: ruclips.net/video/RMBQn_sg7DA/видео.html.
As far as avoiding hunting animals -- don't they only hunt animals you tell them to? Or do you mean: If a panther and a hare are both set to hunt, will they prioritize the hare?
Oh thank you! Really helps
Handy, im gonna mess around with some plans similar to this
Cool. Let me know what you come up with!