What's More Aggressive? Sanding or Multiple Compounding Passes? - [RUPES Replies Episode 030]
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 ноя 2020
- Previous episodes of RUPES Replies have discussed sanding techniques, aggressive compounding, paint thickness, and preserving clear coat, but this has sparked discussion around what methods of defect removal are the most aggressive. Is sanding really less aggressive than multiple heavy cutting stages with a coarse compound and pad? How much material are we removing with these approaches? In this episode of RUPES Replies our Global Director of Training, Jason Rose, methodically compares 3 options for heavy defect removal to compare the relative rates of material removal and show that maybe what you assume about sanding isn't completely true.
PRODUCTS USED IN THIS VIDEO:
Rotary Polishing System
-BigFoot LH19E Rotary Polisher
-Twisted Wool Cutting Pad (9.BL___H series)
-BigFoot Rotary Coarse Compound (9.BRCOARSE)
Random Orbital System
-BigFoot LHR15 Mark III Polisher
-D-A Wool Coarse Pad (9.BW150H)
-D-A Coarse Compound (9.DACOARSE)
Sanding System
-Skorpio III 6mm Pneumatic Palm Sander (RH356)
-X-Cut Foam Backed Abrasives, 6" 3000 grit disc (9.45303)
#rupesreplies #rupes #bigfootpolisher #skorpiosander #colorsanding #wetsanding #paintcorrection #scratchremoval #buffer #carpolish #autodetailing #polishingcompound
Which removes the most material? Watch the whole episode to find out!
For more information: www.rupes.com/contact-us/
subscribe to the channel: ruclips.net/user/rupesspa...
___________________________
RUPES WORLD
RUPES Corporate: www.rupes.com/
RUPES USA: rupesusa.com/
RUPES News: www.rupes.com/news/
RUPES Events: www.rupes.com/events/
RUPES Distributors: distributor.rupes.com/
RUPES BigFoot center: bigfootcentre.rupes.com/
RUPES Marketing center: download.rupes.com/
__________________________
RUPES SOCIAL
Facebook:
Global / rupestools
North America / rupesusa
Instagram:
Global / bigfootrupes
North America / rupesusa
Linkedin:
Global / rupes-s-p-a-
North America / rupesusa
Twitter: / rupesspa 
Авто/Мото
![The Fastest Way To Remove Deep Scratches - [RUPES Replies Episode 029]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Rv0-6kV-sr0/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Fastest Way To Remove Deep Scratches - [RUPES Replies Episode 029]](/img/tr.png)
![Basic Rotary Tips - [RUPES Replies Season 02 Episode 09]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EWkUTRBr2Nk/mqdefault.jpg)
![ian - Fit Check (Feat. VonOff1700) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sDGWDBg45Dw/mqdefault.jpg)
Appreciate the video very good information, but I agree with the others above. It would be great to see the hood before the techniques and then after. Of course after sanding you will have to compound and possibly polish. It would be a better comparison if you had a hood with deep scratches and perform removal of the deep scratches and finished the paint to a satisfactory finish with sanding and then a DA vs a Rotary including the amount of time it takes from start to finish as some of the member are production detailers where time is money while others are less critical of time.
We appreciate the comment, however the point of the video was simply to show rate of material removal of different approaches commonly used, not necessarily a target result. Each section after the heavy correction is going to have a different amount of refinement required, and the target finish is also going to be wildly different based on the specific industry and expectation. For most common express detail and even bodyshop work the DA section would have been more than sufficient and considered "delivery ready" in most shops. To a detailer that finish would have been unacceptable and would have required at least 1 refinement step. The sanded area and rotary area would have also had varying degrees of "clean up" needed... so to what standard do we deliver? Finishing, distinction of image, and gloss readings are already on the list for future topics and we'll perform similar comparisons in that range as well. Stay tuned!
Thank you all for another very informative video as always. Also thank you for your time and sharing of knowledge 👍
Our pleasure! Thanks for watching.
Cut with Rotary finish with dual action, wool pad for rotary, foam pad for dual action
Always great information. Many thanks!
Our pleasure! Glad it was helpful.
Great work fantastic content im hooked i started watching your videos now I purchased rupes lhr15 bigfootmark III and rupes ibrid nano! Your representation matches the rupes craftsmanship! Simply brilliant!
Great 👍 Thank you for watching!
thanks for the video Jason! this is one of those topics that will bring about a method discussion every time....my experience with handling a few bad scratches on a vehicle is with the use of trizac sanding disks, as opposed to mowing the panel down with a 3 step rotary process. I was trained to believe this minimizes the surface area you are dealing with, swelling, and the amount of paint you're removing. It's a fearful subject at time; but like Ivan L says "sanding is a body shop entry level skill, then you get promoted to bathroom cleaning duty..." The guy has a great sense of knowledge and humor!
Your question on the previous video was excellently timed and you make great points. So often someone will grab really aggressive cutting combos, like microfiber and compound on their DA or wool and coarse compound like we showed here and go after a defect with repeated applications, but the precision of sanding allows you to stop exactly where you need to. Plus it does so without the heat and other unwanted byproducts.
@@RUPES Thanks. Keep up the great work!
Great video
Thank you!
Rupes #1 ,,,Thank You 👍
Thank you too
Good stuff! What's the best RUclips video where Jason explains/shows DA sanding in detail? Im having great results on the duetto speed 1, with 2k for nasty paint ...but find myself with occasional pigtails. I'm blowing out the pad often and I can get them out with 3k on my duetto or rotary (not DA, interestingly) so just wanting a refresher ....
It is a topic for a future video. Pigtails can be traced back to a few things:
- load of material on the disc (clear coat)
- foreign particle introduced to the disc (dirt)
- hook/velcro material from the backing plate or interface telegraphing through the disc
- poor quality/inconsistent abrasives
- worn out/over used discs
If you are seeing pig tails address the contamination possibilities by making sure the surface is cleaned, cleaning the disc more frequently, reducing cycle time, and even reducing application area.
Also look at your product combo and make sure you're not introducing it with telegraphing.
Once we do sanding we have to compound, right. So what will be the finished areas thickness
Would depend on what approach is used to remove the sanding mark. In the case of the rotary or 3000grit sanded areas, very little material removal would be required to take the finish out to "delivery ready" but there is some material removal needed. In the orbital section it was already at an excellent finish level, but could be improved with very fine polishing. Ultimately, the target for the finish, the hardness of paint, etc. would determine what, if any follow up steps would be required. The purpose of this video was simply to illustrate how much material each "aggressive" step removes relative to the others.
A great video. And that is exactly the reason why i buy Rupes products. Great importance is placed on the transfer of knowledge, the topics are scientifically processed and all users and customers benefit from it.
Since the paint and also the texture of the pre material changes, it is all the more important for end users or processors to provide this information.
For me it would be interesting how you would prepare gelcoat? Are there any new methods in this segment? For example sanding followed by DA (without using rotary)? This would be a very interesting topic !
Thx Rupes
Greets from Europe Austria
Thank you and good suggestions. We can look into doing those topics.
@@RUPES Thx. Maybe you can introduce different methods? Which devices are essential for marine applications? Do you still need the rotary polishing machine? Is wet sanding followed by random orbital the new way to go?
What is the most effective way to compund/sand/polish gelcoat? A very interesting topic for all marine detailers!
This is an awesome video! I have found myself in this position many times. My most recent experience was removing an old ceramic coating to apply a new one. I did all three steps from coarse with coarse wool pad, fine with medium wool and uno pure with white pad. Is there another way to remove effectively the ceramic coating before adding a new one?
There is a lot of variability in the coating industry. Some coatings can be removed with nothing more than a strong solvent, others require sanding. The best way to know is consult the manufacturer and if you don't know who that is then its trial and error.
Hi Jason and the Rupes fam, I have question at what speed was each machines running at; because thats a big factor to consider. Like on the Rupes rotary i rarely go pass 3 level.
Gracias por traducirlo al español
Love the content guys and also the tour I took in Colorado, I think a good question to answer is in terms of speed, when would 2000 grit be more appropriate then trying to repetitively aggressive compound? This video proves that in a 3000 grit comparison, compounding is actually more aggressive. I’ve found this to be very true, but am curious to hear a 2000 grit or 2500 grit answer, as in my opinion sometimes it just makes more sense to sand then sit there trying to compound over and over.
Severity of defect and hardness of paint would be considerations for a 2000 grit, or even a 1500 grit, sanding approach. Then there is the "what next?" question - on an average paint system our DA products are capable of jumping from 1500 if necessary, but a refinement sanding with 3000 grit makes for an easier buff out. On some really hard paints we've seen 3000 grit not even cut the surface... those paints are out there and when you encounter then going to a coarser grit is the only way you can make progress.
@@RUPES I figured, that’s been my usual approach. Thanks!
Could you demonstrate close up shots of the tools working? I struggle to find a right pressure operation for the Nano and Mini, as they seem to deform the pads. Or is it related to the smaller curves of panels?
This video explains the pressure required for the nano in great detail: ruclips.net/video/n5M2SXsx4ZA/видео.html
Consider, downward pressure is only beneficial to cutting rate with forced action tools. So the LK900E mille (gear driven) or LH19E (rotary) will cut more when the user applies more pressure. With random orbital tools you need only apply enough pressure to keep the pad flat to the surface and slightly compress the foam. Additional pressure on that type of movement does not improve performance, and in some cases may actually reduce performance.
@@RUPES thank you very much!
What’s the difference in method/equipment between Gelcoat and paint correction?
Dear Jason Rose Rose! If we take the abrasive P1500, we will have less varnish left than on rotation with a fur disk?
Thanks for your videos. Really helpful. I wanted to ask if you can use the Rupes X Cut foam disc with the LHR 15 MK II? Or can this only be used with the Duetto and Numatic machines?
Thanks for watching! You can use them with the LHR15, just be aware that as orbit size increases so does the rate of material removal, so use caution when sanding with larger orbits.
@@RUPES Thank you so much for replying. I really appreciate it.
Mindblow
Happy you found the content interesting.
excellent video ! and very informative ......what compounds did you use ? rgds hus , n cyprus
Thanks for the compliments. We list out the products used in the video description along with the part codes.
Most Paint correction usually involves more than 3k grit. Isn’t it 1500 or 2000 then 3000 as a last if not unnecessary step. Little skeptical to be honest because of using such a super fine grit sandpaper.
We'd have to respectfully disagree. It certainly can involve heavier grits. 1000 grit and even 800 are not unheard of in some cases, however, "detail sanding" where you're attempting to replace heavy compounding steps with a damp sanding step (as we teach in our BigFoot Academy) is quite common. 3000 grit is great for surfaces where you have layers upon layers of swirl marks and neglect, but maybe not any deeper isolated scratches. Additionally, as factory paint gets thinner and thinner using methods that preserve as much integrity in the clearcoat as possible are important. Some new cars don't have enough clear from day 1 to support a 1500/3000 process.
What's the best process for really heavy swirls and scratches. The normal course one seems to take a long time to get these defects out. I went back over it with the wool pad and it was much better
Thanks for commenting. There really is no "best" process because of how many variables are involved. Paint hardness, severity of defect, and your mix of available products/skillset all impact how efficient a correction can be.
In the case of severe defects on hard paint, a sanding step may be the most efficient way to go. On a softer paint system or less severe scratches you may be able to realize 100% defect removal and high quality finish if you get the combination of product and technique right.
Every application and every vehicle is going to be different, which is why the test spot becomes so integral to the entire process. If you haven't yet, we'd recommend watching BigFoot 101, specifically the chapters on test spot and adjustments.
ruclips.net/p/PLkX3qMzwBy1EOnBML1roW5F_CDx3eblWy
You have mentioned before about heat generation and lettings things cool. Is there an ambient temperature below which paint correction should not be done? Also, I would really appreciate video just on the use of the Cyclo dual RA machine, including pad selection and compounds. Thanks.
Ambient temperature honestly isn't the main concern, sustained frictional heat is. Obviously ambient heat will warm the panel and thus cause everything else to heat up faster as well, but the main thing you need to be worried about is the sustained frictional heat which becomes an issue starting around 70C/160F. Surfaces often exceed or even double these temps due to radiant heat - think black paint, in the sun, on a summer day. The paint is built to handle those conditions, what it cannot withstand is the frictional heat generated by polishing when it exceeds that range. Ambient heat just makes things less pleasant to work with. Compounds will dry faster, cycles will be shorter, and it is just uncomfortable to work when it is hot, but you can still polish things when ambient temps are high, you just need to mitigate the impact by adjusting your technique.
This video is great for covering the negative impacts of heat on polishing
ruclips.net/video/NX5n2q09jlA/видео.html
And this one is great for ways to mitigate it
ruclips.net/video/mKCs1hP-TAs/видео.html
Thanks for the reply, but I am not sure that actually answers my question. Can I polish in 40 to 50 deg. F ambient air temperatures (assuming I don’t overheat the paint from friction)? Is there a lowest ambient air temperature below which the compounds won’t work? Or does the friction from the polishing warm them up enough to still work properly?
40-50° F is well within a reasonable range to polish. As stated in the original reply, ambient temps (except for on the extreme ends of the spectrum) won’t impact much other than how long it takes the pad to reach operating temp, or in hot climates how much work you do to mitigate excessive heat.
If it’s cold enough to freeze the compound (a water based product) then it’s too cold to polish. And it’ll be hard to get the product out of the bottle in the first place 🥶
Thank you!
whats the best combination of procedures to remove the orange peel from european paint systems? i like rotary a lot for sanding mark removal but i use foam pads for heavy cutting not tufted wool
Sanding to level texture requires the use of a film backed abrasive disc. The abrasive used in this, and other videos in the series, is a foam backed which is designed specifically NOT to remove texture.
Great, could you check whether you can remove the orange peel and inclusions faster dry (by machine) or wet by hand?
Texture (orange peel) can really only be removed by using an abrasive to do that. Polishing products as they are designed do not remove texture. A foam backed sandpaper, or pad materials designed specifically for texture removal are the only ways to remove texture.
Q, How cold is too cold to correct paint?
Living in the UK and without a garage I often correct paint outside, I wondered if you had advice for correcting paint through the cooler months, typically 5-9 Degree Celsius (41- 48F)
I think higher temperatures are bad for detailing... I'm working in a garage but there is no more than 10C and everything is ok... I think coldness will affect more on you than on polishing... :D
Great question - cold is less of an issue as the process of correction being friction based will warm up components and the surface as you work. Really the threshold for cold on correction is going to only be limited to a temp range that would result in compound viscosity being impacted (freezing or close to) and pad materials being too rigid. Our blue foam for example, is very rigid and needs some warmth to soften up and start use... in colder temps this can be a challenge so it would be difficult to work with until the material could be brought up to a reasonable operating temperature.
Good day! please tell me why you used a sander with 6mm stroke and not 3mm?
6mm would be our most popular orbit size and offers the best all around performance, so it is a commonly used orbit in most applications. It gives a good balance between rate of material removal and sanding mark quality. You might find this episode of the RUPES Replies series helpful:
ruclips.net/video/CrpF7eDMRNU/видео.html
Hi, can we have a video on glass polishing?
Great suggestion! We'll see if we can come up with something.
I’ve just sprayed my van and I need to cut it back as it’s got bad orange peel and some pain spits would you use a denim pad and I’m not sure what compound to use any advice cheers
Sorry, but we don't have any real recommendations on what to use with a denim pad. It isn't a product we have in our range, so we haven't validated it. Our recommendation for orange peel removal is going to be sanding since it keeps the temperatures on the surface down and is a far more controlled leveling process.
@@RUPES thanks I just watched osren showing you could use the denim pad and no sanding needed but it’s usa and I can only get the pad in the U.K. not the compound . So seems ill have to use sand paper
Can I use my ibrid sanding disc and paper for removing RIDS or is that strictly for denibbing? I suppose the answer is already clear in this video that compounding is in fact more aggressive anyway, so perhaps I answered my own question 🤣
Thanks for posting the question, but don't completely misinterpret the message of the video. Heavy compounding CAN be more aggressive than sanding. The takeaway should really be that sanding (3000 grit foam disc) isn't as big a leap in terms of rate of material removal vs. heavy compounding as many people assume it is. All these methods should be options for you and your job as a professional is to understand when and how to use those options most appropriately.
On to your question about the iBrid Nano and adhesive discs that come in that kit - can you? Absolutely you can, however the setup is intended primarily to be a denibbing tool. Because the discs we provide are film backed and the sanding backing pad is a fairly rigid vinyl the result of sanding with it will level texture. If you're on a relatively flat paintjob or in an isolated area where it will not be noticeable it doesn't matter. However, if you intend to do larger (longer RIDS) or the paint has a fair amount of orange peel, the spot you sand with that approach will become very obvious. This might not be a result your customer wants!
We would recommend, in most cases, the use of a foam backed abrasive like our XCUT paired with a foam interface. We don't produce these in nano size, but you will find them in the appropriate size for the LHR75E mini. Check out this video for a closer look at the process and products: ruclips.net/video/Rv0-6kV-sr0/видео.html
Do we need a special pad and paste for polishing lights or chrome? Thank you
In many cases, especially for head light or tail light restoration, the same products used for paint correction will work very well for these surfaces. We actually have a video on that topic: ruclips.net/video/PMSsRQbCyYk/видео.html
Thank you very much
Es fácil decir que lijando se remueve menos cantidad de material cuando te habala una marca tan importante como rupes y tenes todas las herramientas necesarias,pero para uno que se esfuerza día a día y corrije con la única máquina que tiene,rotativa o roto orbital,la verdad que con la cantidad inexplicable de plata que les entra podrían elegir a ciertos "detailers" y equiparlos un poco,saludos desde San Luis Argentina...mi taller se llama #AMPesteticavehicular
But after the sanding when you use the compound to remove the sanding marks, don't you remove more of the paint? And the possibility to remove more paint than the rotary with wool and compound
Yes, correct. We are using a 3000 grit foam disc, not a film disc...so the material removal is relatively much less. The sanding mark does in fact need an additional polishing step, which yes...will remove more material. However, the rotary also needs additional step/s to finish. The DA polishing procedure may or may not need additional step. The point of the video is to raise awareness of foam-disc type sanding as an alternative for severe paint defect removal. And that "sanding" especially with foam-disc sanding technology, should not be as scary as most people think it is.
That's correct! Foam disc sanding is in some case a better solution than rotary wool compound and for sure you can do more damage with a rotary than with foam disc sanding
Rotary and wool usually equals 3.5-4.5 microns removed every time you work an area. Sanding if done right removes much less and doesnt involve heat from friction and is far more efficient and uniform. Sand more - polish less. The finer you sand the less steps. Sand to 5000, 8000 or even micro mesh 12000 and then one easy polishing step with a finishing polish and your done. Beats grinding away with a rotary or DA over and over
Good video 👌🏼 but how is it possible that you remove the orange peel with sanding but its not the biggest "damage" to the paint and that the rotary is doing more damage??
Tnx for the awnser.
I'm not sure that you can remove orange peel with 3000 sand paper... They should test with 2000 grit... That rotary wool pad from rupes is quite aggressive...
Dutch detailing Center - a foam backed abrasive, like the one used in the video, is designed to NOT remove orange peel. The substrate of the abrasive is what determines if it levels the surface or not. For texture removal you would use a film backed abrasive like our HQ series. Those, regardless of grit, will remove orange peel.
Igor - as mentioned in our reply to the original commenter, the abrasive grit does not determine if it does or does not remove texture. The abrasive substrate does. A film backed 3000 grit disc can very easily remove texture. The disc used in the video is foam backed, which is designed to maintain texture.
So you mean there are special discs to remove orange peel?? I tought the 1000 1500 2000 and 3000 sanding discs where the only options to remove the orange peel on a custom paintjob.
The type of disc, not the grit, determines whether or not texture is removed. Foam backed, as used in this video, will not remove texture. Film backed discs will remove texture.
Я живу в Узбекистане. Как я могу заказать ваши инструменты. Спс за внимание
You will never get as flat of a surface without sanding first
That is one thick layer of paint/coating on that hood
not sure about this cause the pressure isn't measured
Short of building a rig to make the passes the best we can do is have the same technician do all the applications, in this case Jason. The point of the video is really to illustrate that the rate of material removal of 3000 grit foam backed sanding is not as aggressive as many people assume it is, and rotary wool compounding is more aggressive than many people believe it is.
So, you just gonna leave it hazing like that, call it done? Shouldn't you finish it till shine and sunny before measure total clear removal?
Correct, but the point of the video was just to demonstrate relative material removal rate of various cutting processes (not the entire process) because many technicians assume sanding is always more aggressive than heavy compounding, when the opposite can be true in several situations.
3 braços kkkk😂
Sand with 1500 by hand than you read!with 3000 on machine you canot remove deap schratces