What's the Gaelic Controversy in FOURTH WING?? (comment response)
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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As a Scottish Highlander, I'm kind of ashamed I don't know Gaelic. My cousins do because they went to a Gaelic school where they basically learned the language for the first three years, but it's hard to balance learning it in secondary school when you have to sacrifice another area of education to take it and the only real advantage is if you wanted to go into Gaelic media.
And looking at Scotland now, it's a symptom of a larger problem. A lot of the time the Southern Scots who make up the majority of the population show a phenomenon known as "Scottish cringe" where our cultural elements are deemed as weird and something to only be embraced ironically. It's bizarre to experience as a highlander because I grew up with my friends going to highland dancing classes and reading Scottish story books to us. It's like our culture is dying within itself and we have the exact same issues and homogeny as England (there's actually a lot of campaigns about Scottish independence from the UK but that's a whole other topic.)
I say this to explain there's a primal rage within a lot of us who see our culture being shared in a way where the author doesn't just mispronounce it, but says "I like to pronounce it this way" as if it's some sacrifice where she's letting the culture evolve when really she's just smearing her own faeces on the face of Gaelic's comatose dying body.
I don’t know I live central and we have Scottish dancing, ceilidh’s, Scottish stories about kelpies etc. I think it just depends where you are, we also have a push on people learning bagpipes, and Gaelic. So it enrages me also to see it used in this way. I do have a lot of family up north too though so spend plenty time in both. Sounds like you’ve met some shite people though, but not all southern Scot’s are like that and the vast majority I know are actively trying to promote our culture especially with our kids etc.
As an Irish person I feel very similar about Gaelic
I'm learning Scottish Gaelic on Duolingo as I do not want this beautiful language to die! Alba gu bràth! 🏴❤️ edit: I am also Scottish, and I've gotten a few comments asking why I'm learning Scottish Gaelic instead of a "useful" language which saddens me as I personally find it important to help preserve this beautiful language.
As a Scottish person, born and raised. the butchering of a language that we were forced not to speak and is indicative of of the attempted mass destruction and suppression of our culture it’s offensive that she put so little effort into her intent behind the words used. To add insult she then decided that she could say these words how ever she wished is just next level oblivious and obnoxious.
I’m from the US and have very little Irish heritage, but I’m learning Irish anyway. Partially because I wanted to be Irish when I was small, but also to do a little something about keeping Gaelic tongues alive.
If I might also expand on this as others have, the issues and attitude to Gaelic are so complicated, and it really annoys me that the author and no one on her team thought to reach out to a native Gaelic speaker from Scotland or Nova Scotia. For clarity, I'm a Highlander but I do not speak Gaelic beyond a few words and phrases - the only language I speak fluently is English. But I do live in Scotland and I know that there is a massive anti-Gaelic sentiment still here today.
It didn't just naturally die out by itself - it was actively suppressed by English speakers, especially in schools where you would have Gaelic-speaking children show up and then be punished for using their mother tongue in the classroom over English. Luckily those days are far behind us and Gaelic is now a protected language but you still have people who belittle it. A few years ago, one of Scotland's former First Ministers set up his own political party and he named it Alba - the Gaelic name for Scotland. EVEN THEY MISPRONOUNCE IT - they say Al-ba while the Gaelic pronunciation is more like Al-a-pah. On top of this, there are so many ways that Gaelic has influenced modern Scottish English, and it in itself is a beautiful language.
It grinds my gears to see other Scots treat Gaelic poorly so I've really got no time for someone else seeing it and adding it to their own novel simply because it looks cool. By all means share in the culture, in particular I invite anyone to check out any of the renditions of a song called Cànan Nan Gàidheal, but don't straight up misappropriate an endangered language, please and thank you.
As someone with so much scottish history in my family, i feel like, or felt like i didnt care about it because there are worse forms of appropriation and its still a fairly well known culture, but the more i think about it, the less i like it and it is kind of messed up in the same way it would be of any other place. I wouldnt mind it being used, but its also not some fantasy language, just use it correctly, or at least be clear that its just an inspiration for a fantasy language because i think thats fine if you take inspiration from the sounds.
Good topic for discussion. Also Katie's outfit is giving me a teacher vibe 😊
I’ve been studying Irish for about two years on Duolingo because I’ve always felt drawn to Ireland. I’m also hoping to study Welsh. I think maybe I’m just trying to make all my English ancestors really mad.
Ok, not Scottish, but I’ve been learning Gaelic for about a year now. I didn’t listen to the audiobook at allllll so for me I had fun reading the Gaelic names and knowing what they meant. Like Tairn’s name instantly stood out and I was like oh thunder. Dope. Then she has a lightning power…so boom. I think people are pissy about her not pronouncing Gaelic words correctly, but honestly I think it’s dope to use a dying language in a book so that people have interest. Outlander was a huuuge catalyst for people beginning to learn Gaelic and that interest will help keep a dying language alive.
Also Gaelic can be hard as hell to pronounce. Even in class we laugh about alllllll the ways to pronounce each effing word. There are so many dialects with Gaelic. Each island and area in Scotland says something different. It’s bananas. So I really feel like people need to chill the hell out and if you can read Gaelic then pronounce it correctly in your head.
Will is looking extra ruggedly handsome!
I'm really loving this new segment! ^_^
I disagree, that it's not her responsibility to do this. If you pull words from foreign language it is you responsibility, as an author, to care about things you pulling. When somebody uses things from another culture like that without any care and research, it's cultural appropriation, and it shouldn't be done. If you as an author can't do the bare minimum, you shouldn't be able to cash in on it.
It's not even an opinion thing, this literally is a textbook example of negative cultural appropriation. Scottish people being white has no bearing on whether or not it's that, neither has their location being within the British isles.
I mean thats why usually fantasy authors minimum tweak and alter to like avoiding that. I guess its the laziness part thats offensive. And fantasy taking names isnt uncommon, but usually they really care about the language, or slight alter it. And she did neither. Which is lazy.
@marocat4749 I also think that taking inspiration from it FOR a fantasy name/language is fine or at least more ok, just make it clear by not using 1 to 1 naming. Like how in game of thrones the names are all just a little off how they're spelled in reality
@@danielbroome5690 I though of games of thrones too
+take a shot kady
Exactly. It’s a must. It has direct influence and this is a hyped book.
im in the process of reading this book with a friend of mine, and i reached the level of pettiness to go page by page and list out all the new named characters. as of page 510 where i last left off there are 109 (give or take cuz my memory of characters in the first book isn't perfect), and across all of them there is literally no cultural cohesiveness. im fully convinced yarros has the fantasy name generator constantly open on another tab while she was writing cuz this is honestly just baffling
AND, mild spoiler here, there's a part later in the book where there could've been a cool naming convention for the gryphons' names to end in -LAIR but yarros just has one of the characters shoot down the idea as stupid like??? rebecca you're writing fantasy, what do you think you're here to do??
NO BUT I READ THE BOOK (Technically i didn't finish because what's the point) but i was so upset about her not putting any effort into the culture INCLUDING NAMES. Like i started a slideshow about how the book could be improved entirely out of spite and I included a slide just about names. That and she should've developed other parts of the culture like how magic works. Imagine if, instead of just fucking around with name generators, each prominent rider lineage was to have a name referencing the abilities that riders from those lineages most often manifest. That would link up magic and naming, and develop the culture, also showing the reader that there are expectations of those born into rider families (interesting discussion to be had about being forced into a path you don't want) and that family members tend to manifest similar abilities (instead of just "oh the dragon looks into your soul and gives you powers and btw one power is illegal and you'll be murdered for getting it). If i were a dragon I'd make every rider I get an inntinsic or whatever. Fuck those shitty ass riders. I hate the book.
This comment made me go through a list and she called a character "Sun" (Soleil) and im screaming bc that's just like naming them table skskskekeke
Love these type of vids. Btw Katie's fit slaps 😎
Luckily, at least with Scottish its not in danger of actually dying, just in danger of not being spoken anymore. Its well preserved enough that it CAN* be learned. Unlike several native languages which anthropologists are rushing to record while they still can.
According to Wikipedia, language death occurs when there are no more native speakers. For example, Cornish, another Celtic tongue suppressed by the English, actually did lose all its native speakers and was dead. There were enough people who cared and enough resources for people to start speaking it again, but there’s always going to be a discontinuity in its transmission. It’s important for there to be native speakers.
u are describing language death mate, nobody speaking it fluently is how they classify languages as dead
If a writer from another culture decided to name some characters and things words and names from American cultures, I think most Americans would get (rightfully) offended. At least I know I do when I hear others butcher French names and words thinking their "exotic". Hell, I get fucking pissed when people butcher occitan thinking "awww what a quirky language". I 110% understand the people that are offended and hurt by her disregard for their tongue.
This is why I read books and don't listen to them, then I can pronounce the names anyway I please in my own head🤣
My friends still make fun of me for pronouncing the Tolkien name Celleborn my own way. (Sellaborn not Kelleborn, at least for myself. Kinda like how we call them the Boston Celtics with an S.)
100% it's lazy writing. I said the exact same thing on another channel reviewing the Lightlark sequel. Thoughtful world-building and storytelling revolves around cohesion. "Make it make sense," as they say. The issue with authors like Yarros and Aster is that they aren't sticking to their foundational concepts and building upon them. Instead, they're taking lots of ideas and concepts that they find interesting, and then whip-stitching it carelessly together.
From a cultural perspective, that is insincere. I am firmly against the concept of cultural appropriation. I feel culture should be shared and welcomed for all to explore. But for that to work, we must be mindful and respectful of cultures that aren't ours. Yarros wasn't being respectful. And that very much is an author's duty. You both said that it's not her responsibility, but yes it damn well is. That was her responsibility the moment she decided to use authentic Gaelic names. Let's hold authors to higher standards. If you are going to be inspired by someone else's culture, have the decency and self-respect to treat it with a bit of care. Is that really too much to ask?
This is just a show case for the shallowness of this book series. Do your homework. While we enjoy the quality of some masterpieces written to children using a prose she never will reach this is a hyped book? Give her as gift Earthsea from Ursula Le Guin to learn some art about words and names.
Obviously there's been backlash about this already, but imagine if it was a language from a more 'traditional' ethnic group, like Chinese. I feel people would be even more upset because it would be so disrespectful to take someone else's native language and just pronounce it however you want, which I feel is as much what she did as anything. Not just that she was lazy, but this was what she thought sounded cool when she saw the names and then she didn't bother to check the actual pronunciation.
I'm not saying there should be more backlash, but I do think people are more willing to dismiss it because they don't think of the Scottish as an ethnic group in the same way as Chinese or Indian or Nigerian, and I don't think that should be a reason to dismiss the issue. If you're going to pull from any language, you should make the effort to check pronunciation. Google is right there, it won't take long.
Now I know foreign words can be difficult. I don't know how tricky Gaelic is, but Chinese has some letter combinations and pronunciations that are weird to English speakers, plus the tones, and it's articulated in a different part of the mouth. And there's people like my roommate who can't even get English right all of the time (she said it, not me). I get that. I wouldn't expect someone to pronounce Chinese names perfectly. But I would expect an effort to be made, and there doesn't seem to have been any effort here.
Guys, it would have been nice if you put the part of the video you're referencing to or at least gave the link. And the correct pronunciation.
How long has Katie been sorting out her cupboards?
Omg bro, I know okay. It’s taking a while.
I think its nitpicky, as it distracts from way worse things about the book,
but then its so easy to alterwords and not straight take them without knowing to aay them. Like bo blame, burt would be so easy to treak gaelic names i imagine.
.She sdidnt nead to take it inaltered, she could havew slight tweaked to whatever and, ... i think its the laziness to not do the minor tweak yout words even minor to not aproviate without knowing that.
Really a lot fantasy do that , its not hard.
Navarra is the spanish word
when i write other languages into my work, i do insane research on grammar, historical/pop culture differences as well as just contextual differences in how certain words are used. like for example, some languages do not use "i love you" the same way we do in english, and some slang words replace more "textbook" words so your book reads like google translate. also a lot of languages dont do names and nicknames the same way english does! language is a beautiful thing and to just blatantly not care about the history and culture around the language ur profiting off of is so upsetting and disrespectful to me
it's just bizarre that people are up in arms about this. yeah the author borrowed from a known language in the real world but insisting that it's true to the source material is weird, because um, Scotland or Ireland doesn't exist in this made-up world. but everything else she does is pretty shit so i can't defend the books too much.
She still used a language that almost disappeared because of oppression towards its speakers, while butchering the pronounciation because she felt hers was cooler; still not cool ^^"