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Your report is misleading. I purchased a brand new 2020 Navion and it must have been built the day after Winnebago fired the Quality Department. The coach door handle didn't work (might be installed upside down), the door didn't fit, the window behind the range was a fire hazard and had to be replaced (should be a recall) the electric plug receptacles are horizontal under cabinets so you need to lay on your back to attach, they picked the cheap version of the Mercedes Sprinter that doesn't have Sirus, the MCD blinds were switched out for a cheap version. The dealers couldn't fix so I had to drive 500 miles to Forest City. They kept the unit for 3 weeks and then I picked it up, all at my expense. Another couple came to my unit in the Winnebago parking lot and they had the same problems. The Winnebago lobby was full of people waiting for their repairs. Good thing its a big lobby. I traded in the unit with 7000 miles for another manufacturer that is much better. At best Winnebago can get an "A" for false adverstising. I am not here to advertise for another so I withhold the name of the like unit but it is night and day better.
As a cabinet maker I believe the quality of a RV must take into consideration the quality of the woodwork. Very few reviews go deep into woodwork quality. Is the finish on the back of the door as good as the finish on the front of the door? Do you feel like you’re going to get a “paper cut” when you run your finger across the edge of the cabinet or door? What kind of fastners are used to assemble the cabinets? Do the drawers have dovetail joints? Are they solid wood? Do they have undermount self closing full extension drawer slides?
I own a 2020 wayfarer. Regarding the CCC, if it is a big concern just put 30 gallons on the fresh water (same as Navion) and carry less propane (because the generator is diesel) get you about 100-150#). Also, the Wayfarer comes with auto leveling. Which I would suspect is a bulk of the weight differential. It is too early for me to comment on overall quality but to me the Navion feels like a camper and the Wayfarer feels like a coach.
As the time gets closer for me to buy my first RV, with the intention of eventually living in one full time, my focus has expanded beyond just Class B homes and into both Class C and truck campers. Any reviews you do on these are must watch features, so yes, please do expand your focus.
thanks for letting me know @Ralph Rainwater. I love Class C's and truck campers as well. Now if I could just meet my goal on Patreon to reach 100 patrons I could hire some help!
@Robin Nuttall - you've been a long time subscriber so you can imagine how happy I am to hear that you moving into making your RV lifestyle a reality! Noted!
The Wayfarer has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 11,030 pounds, a 15,250-pound gross combination weight rating (GCWR), and a stated net cargo carrying capacity of 1,150 pounds. A 5,000-pound trailer hitch is standard. The test coach was weighed with full fuel and water, a driver, and optional accessories. The scale showed a 3,580-pound front axle weight, a 6,620-pound rear axle weight, and a 10,200-pound total weight, leaving 830 pounds for additional cargo. With a front gross vehicle axle weight rating (GAWR) of 4,410 pounds and a rear GAWR of 7,720 pounds, that shows the weight is evenly distributed across the Wayfarer.
After owning 3 brand new Tiffin Class A motorhomes, we downsized to the 2019 Navion 24D and love it. The Tiffins were always back in the shop needing to get up to 30 items at a time fixed. With the Winnebago, our fix-list is only 5 items long after 6 months of ownership.
@@Tableaux15 the winnebago class A diesel pusher Forza is interesting. I feel like the Navion/ unity fx require you to give up on sleeping spaces. I need to sleep 4 to 5 + one child.
@@dhirajjdewan8069 My question was concerning if he had had problems with a Class A Winnebago. I know people that had a Winnebago diesel pusher and they had hell with it right from the beginning.
If you are concerned about Customer Service no one compares to Tiffin! They are tops in the industry. Family owned since the beginning. We just attended a Tiffin Wayfarer Rally in TN and the company no only give educational seminars for three days they also had a Service Team there that went to every Wayfarer customer who requested and they make all sorts of minor repairs, adjustments and even replaced parts if they had them. It was awesome. As for OCC... we have a 2019 TW (twin bed) and fully loaded with gear and fuel and 1/3 tank of fresh water we weighed in just under the OCC limit. If you do a lot of camping in areas that does not have 30amp electric you will be really glad you have a diesel generator and not propane. It is much easier to find diesel fuel than propane. The diesel generator adds some weight over the propane one. As for ride quality hands down the Wayfarer outshines the Navion. It comes standard with Sumo springs and you will end up adding those to your Navion. literally no squeaks or rattles when driving the Wayfarer. I can't say that about the Navion. You will notice the difference immediately. You really need to compare the two and not look at specifications alone. Tiffin builds a better unit and guess what it is the number one Sprinter Class C topping Winnebago!
My wife and I really like the Wayfarer TW so could you please tell us what the OCC is on your rig, we haven't found a Class C that has the same build quality as Tiffin, Thanks and have a blessed day
Jon Harney I am out of town for a few weeks and don’t have access to my RV so I can’t give you exact figures but I will say you need not be concerned. There were 160 Wayfarers at the Rally and no one had any issues or concerns. You can carry all the normal stuff that you would need to carry. I travel with a 1/3 tank of fresh water and other tanks empty.
One thing you should have mentioned: the Wayfarer comes standard with hydraulic leveling. The Navion does not. With the absorption refer in the Wayfarer, this is more important, less important in the Navion with the compressor driven refer (although you still want to be pretty level. Another thing that deserves mention: the Wayfarer does not come with a ladder, but the Navion does. I’m a Tiffin guy. I love my Phaeton, and I’d really like to love the Wayfarer. But, it seems to me that Winnebago is ahead of the pack in terms of tech. That said, I would have liked to see the Navion with extra fresh water capacity instead of extra grey water capacity. I say this to manufacturers’ reps all the time when I see them at shows...there is no need for larger grey water tanks if you have a small fresh tank. Overall, good job on the comparison though. Love your videos. I’ll be in the market to buy one of these (most likely) in the fall, in addition to my Phaeton. The Phaeton will be used for the longer RV park trips to escape the Phoenix summer heat, and the (most likely) Navion will be for Spring and fall 3-4 day trips to forest/lake/river/stream state/national park type campgrounds for some dry camping.
Hey @Mark Du Ree - thanks for watching even though you're a Class A fan! I hope to eventually branch out to Class A rigs. Good point on the hydraulic leveling jacks. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree that more fresh water is important. That black tank on the Wayfarer though needs to be increased in size.
Ultramobility boondock and be a bear. In the woods. Cause they do $&@“ there. Love your stuff. Get those long takes down, less jump cuts. Keep it up. You saved me from big mistake and would be literally homeless god bless!
What I understood from my sales person (via the Tiffin rep) re: OCCC is that Wayfarer is lower because they already accounted for the weight of tanks full. So, in your graph, you should add the 315lbs back in to the Wayfarer because it was already counted - Winnebago does not account for full tanks. You may want to confirm this before you share more videos with this claim!
The DOT defines OCCC NOT the mfg. Your salesperson is either misinformed or flat out lying to you. Wayfair in no way shape or form defines what OCCC is. When we were looking between the Wayfair and the Winnebago I was stunned at the lies told by salespersons at different dealerships. They had been working RVs long enough to know they were lying.
One other thing to remember is, the chassis are Mercedes and are shipped over here from Germany. If you have a problem with anything related to the chassis (engine, electrical, batteries, etc) you will have to take it to a Mercedes dealer to get it fixed. My neighbor just bought a 2020 Winnebago on a Mercedes frame, same size as these, and has had to take it to Mercedes 3 times for different issues. Yesterday it was to replace a control module that required them to remove the steering column. Just letting you know.
this one was really helpful. I hope you do lengthy reviews of each unit. I'd really been looking at the wayfarer but I liked the better storage on the Navion and I like it's streamlined look. I hope you do more class c's as long as it is smaller class c's like these 2.
Hi Neil, I just want to say that I have been waiting for this review for months now. The fact that your knowledge of RV’s and the integrity and honesty that you bring to your videos - exceeds most other RUclips influencers by miles. I am a couple of months away from purchasing one of the 2 RV’s that you reviewed and have been heavily researching both of these models. Sadly most of the RV dealers that sell these brands dont seem to have the latest facts or updates on the new 2020 models. My wife is hands down in favor of the Winnebago and I am still contemplating the Wayfarer. Clearly the View has now exceeded the Wayfarer in a number of areas including available Lithium which will come with a diesel generator as the option package, standard 2K inverter, standard Solar, airplane quality entry door, newly insulated front overhead cap, standard aluminum, wheels and almost double the OCCC to boot (makes you wonder how they did that) and yes they do have jacks, but not auto-leveling as I understand. Also colors of both interior and exterior are now almost identical between the 2 coach’s. Linen white is becoming a common choice for both. Once again, thanks for the review and thanks for keeping the manufacturers honest. I look forward to your update on this one.....thanks a bunch
Remember you can hardly bring belongings with you in the Wayfarer. Big problem to me, and probably your wife. How can she run your lives on 100 pounds?
I disagree about the electrical systems. The Wayfarer comes with the diesel generator which is going to be more fuel efficient plus you will be able to use the same fuel tank as the chassis. Also, you didn't mention anything about the roofs. Another point to consider is the customer service aspect. I know that this is a big deal with Tiffin but don't know anything about Winnebago. Good video.
Neil...glad to see you review Class Cs! Keep them coming! You didn't mention build quality on these. I think it's better in the Tiffin...probably why less CCC, Tiffin is using solid wood everywhere...
could be daniel. i'll have to reserve judgment until i do full reviews. my parents have a tiffin allegro and i have to be honest: not impressed with the build quality. hopefully tiffin's class c is better. we'll see...
@@Ultramobility I think the build quality is better on the deisel class A's and looks pretty tight on the Wayfarer's. Although, some of the Wayfarer floorplans are really awkward. Tiffin is new in the Class C market...I think they have some things to work out but they are on the right track. Navion also not bad...special lightweight cabinetry that looks OK. I test drove both Navion and Wayfarer, neither has too many squeeks and rattles. Thanks again for the review!
Thanks Neil. Great to see the C's. Tempting, all the room. But the nimbleness of the B is superior. The vast storage under the lounge seats can only hold a lot of potato chips on the Wayfair according to those weight figures.
@playhooky - probably in their cabinet construction maybe? i'd have to do a factory tour to find out. also if the wayfarer has more standard components those have to be counted against the occc.
Really appreciate your thought process and the way you boil down the choices so clearly. Makes it so helpful for people to decide on their own. Also appreciate your repeated emphasis on OCCC. So often left out of reviews. Would the weight of fuel not also need to be included? About 175lbs for 25gal of diesel. And your putting in additional visuals makes your videos stand out quite a bit. Encourage you to go even farther with those - maybe superimposing bed measurements and the like. Usability with the slide closed would be good to include. I believe both can acccess the toilet & fridge. Thanks again.
At 2:45 you say that we are seeing the 2018 model year Sprinter cutaway chassis, but that the 2019 will be available later. The picture shown IS the 2019 model
oh you viewers :-) Yep you are correct that is an editing error and I knew some observant viewer would catch it. I caught it after I had burned the video during review but it was 10pm and I had to get it uploaded and get the thumbnail made before I hit the sack so... you found it!
Technically he was correct as talking about two different things and the 'model year' becomes confusing. Cutaway chassis model year refers to when they left the MB factory and the VIN# assigned. In that respect, chassis leaving in 2018 were the 'old' chassis, but the 2019 cutaway chassis he was referring to coming later is the "next generation" MB cutaway chassis. 8th digit back on the VIN identifies the year (I use to sell cars is the reason I know that). What makes it confusing, the 2019 model being reviewed is the build-out year where the RV was completed and named as a 2019 model despite being built on a 2018 chassis. In reality, no late build of a 2019 has a 2019 chassis, as those began with the 2020 models, and if they still had unbuilt 2018 chassis in inventory at the chassis, some manufacturers did a stealth transition mid 2020, or like Winnebago, created new models like the cheaper Porto to build on the remaining 2018 chassis and beginning the 2020 Navion/View with the next generation 2019 chassis.
@@larrygray1557 Kind of irrelevant now, 10 months later, but my point was that there was natural model confusion because of M-B's late-year model change. Right now I'm wondering what will happen to my favorite RV manufacturers, because people aren't traveling and many businesses are closing and destination parks are turning away visitors.
"No upgrade path to Lithium?" If that simple fact is wrong I don't even want to guess what else is. Am I to assume that my conversion to Lithium batteries was a figment of my imagination? I did it myself. Pulled out the lead acid batteries that came with the Wayfarer, dropped in two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries, dropping that weight in half. Oh, and for extra credit I added a Victron 712 battery monitor, a Battery Isolation Manager, and updated my Progressive Dynamics converter (none of these 3 extras I opted to self-install were required). Also noticed no mention of seamless slides. Loving my Wayfarer 24BW. Watched mine get built over three days while at their factory. For laughs they pulled in two competing rigs next to the assembly line to let their workers compare features and build quality. Didn't take long for parts to start to accumulate as they came off in people's hands.
I have a question on the OCCC calculation. What I understand the OCCC already considered (deducted) the weight for the passengers, fresh water... Here the definition I found. Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) - The CCC is the GVWR minus the UVW, the SCWR, the weight of a full tank of propane, and the weight of all fresh water in the system including a full fresh water tank and a full water heater. UVW - (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) - New in 1996, this is the weight of the vehicle as delivered with full fuel, oil, and coolant, but without manufacturer's or dealer-installed options and before adding passengers, driver, propane, or fresh water. Sleeping Capacity Weight Rating (SCWR)- is calculated by multiplying the number of sleeping positions by 154 pounds. Meaning that we have more capacity than we thought.
Oups! I have just realized that I took the old CCC definition that is different than the OCCC. The OCCC do not consider the weight of the fresh water and passenger. Sorry for the confusion!
Good job as usual in comparing! I can't believe Tiffin's carrying capacity is so low...it is almost unusable for anyone's purpose, and having all those places for people to sleep but unable to carry them is almost misleading. I also notice that the Tiffin has the same interior height, but exterior is about 6 inches greater--wonder why. That would certainly impact mpg and driving dynamics as well.
yeah the occc rating is always something to look for. manufacturers rarely like to talk about it. also i agree on the sleeping berths. why have them if you can't carry passengers in safety? not sure why the height is more on the wayfarer - i reached out to tiffin before the review but they never got back to me.
@Majorie Hall - thank you for noticing. BTW, in doing this review I got a call back from Russ Garfin at Winnebago who had heard I was doing the review and wanted to answer any of my questions. What a treat and what a great guy.
@Marjorie Hall - He really is a class act. He called me from the floor of a show just to ensure that I got all my questions answered. That says a lot about Winnebago and Russ.
Working up to getting a Winnebago View 24V. Rear twin\king bed, dry bath, cab over bunk, fold out couch bed. Meets all my needs. I'd love a B class but I need sleeping for 3 large adults with very different sleep schedules.
there's a huge jump in livability moving from a class b to a class C. huge. it makes a big difference for many use cases and needs. yes the rv is less stealthy but for many that doesn't matter. i love class c rvs as much as i love class b's.
Tiffin uses solid materials (countertops, doors, cabinets, etc. etc.) in their coaches including the Wayfarer. I had a coach that everything was paper thin. Countertops would buckle, walls were as thin as paper, you couldn’t lean on anything or hardly touch anything. I was a nervous wreck when we had several people in there. I was afraid someone was going to go through the wall or floor! Tiffin builds quality and stands right with their customer throughout any and all problems that may arise and yes they aren’t perfect but you want customer service that they offer when something does happen you will not have to go it alone. Thanks for sharing...
Latada thanks so much for sharing your RV ownership experience. some class A rigs are really flimsy. These coaches are much better although i wish both had longer warranties.
Yes, but that is why they are so heavy and can't be loaded with any cargo. 95lbs of net cargo carrying capacity is a joke. One good sized toolbox and some bedding and you are overweight. There is a woman who has a RUclips channel named RV Creativity that is terribly overweight with her Tiffin and she is oblivious to the issue. She thinks that just because she can cram more stuff into the available space that it is OK. She is a hazard on the road and possibly destine to a dangerous accident in the near future.
Yes on the Class C reviews. We are cash in hand buyers and have been appalled at what we see on the dealers property. The models we have interest in are the Navion/View, Wayfarer and Dynamax Isata. We have delayed our purchase now out of fear of what the quality is.
We have a fully loaded 2017 Navion and for the most part love it. The engineering is second to none, but the installation is only average to marginally average. Especially on a new RV one must retain the most anal RV inspector you can find. For example, the factory installers of our upgraded max fan did not seal screw holes in the flange on the hinge side. Therefore, we had water intrusion after 2 years. Next, the electrical installers failed to correctly secure the relays under the passenger seat as well as failed to correctly install the wiring to the circuit breakers which resulted in an electrical fire. Every drawer has to be taken out every seat has to be removed every furnace, truma water heater, air conditioner, toilet plumbing has to be meticulously checked. Otherwise, one will be paying the price later down the road.
I have a 2020 Wayfarer TW which has had nothing but issues, sink not hooked up, speakers not working, air-conditioner drain not hooked up, today I found out the the warning light on my dash about a rear light out was due to the Wayfarer wiring harness not have all of the connecters protected, Mercedes will not cover this under warranty and told me within a couple of years the whole system will most likely fail. Now back to Tiffin. If you own one of these look at the connections under the rear of the coach to see if they ares sealed or just left uncovered.
I know this video is 3 years old when I'm watching but it is very useful. It was helpful to have a floor plan back to back. The Tiffin has a shorter counter. And I don't like that. The difference is that Winnebago puts the wardrobe in the bathroom and there is a smaller window.
Love the color scheme on the Tiffin. And I think the Diesel generator is a better choice assuming it sips off the gas tank. Just pack light 😀. Wow that cab on the new MBZ is a huge upgrade. What a difference. Tiffin makes really nice Class A motor homes. Didn’t realize they made Class C’s. The very first Class A I ever looked at was a Tiffin Allegro Breeze, it was the shortest one on the market at the time at only 25 feet! That’s short for a class A. Sadly they no longer manufacture them but still see them for sale used. If I knew I wasn’t going to be very mobile, that 25 foot Allegro Breeze would certainly be on my wish list as would this Wayfarer, really like the interior layout and the large bathroom is very nice.
We have the Nav outside of the dang radio “which is a combo camera and other thing component”being replaced twice once under warranty and the other time at our expense at around 1k it has been great! I find we take more 6 hour or less trips than before with our old A and B class...I never towed a car! We’ve done Gatlinburg many times!
My review of these two Cs: the layout in both is BRILLIANT. Wayfarer’s interior is bright and BEAUTIFUL while Navion’s decor looks dreary-made of 1980’s leftovers. I prefer the Wayfarer’s placement of TV in the lounge rather than over the kitchen workspace. Still Nav’s solar set up and storage would make it my choice but ...I’ll wait fur the next model year to see if they come up with a decor I’d care to live in. Q: Can one sit up in bed?
Thank you! Been waiting on this! I knew you would do an amazing job on the comparisons, they’re so similar that it’s easy to miss some of the differences! 😎
Tracy, you got it. I'm glad that you found my presentation helpful. I try to highlight the good and the bad so that you can make an informed decision. thanks for the comment.
Thanks for this video. You saved us from making a big mistake ! We were ready to buy the Tiffin and then saw this video, re; OCCC capacity. That was a deal breaker...don't know how they can even sell it that way. Bought a new 2019 VIEW (Navion) and are very happy with our choice.
We were the same way When Tiffin first came out with their class C. The OCCC turn us off immediately. Their engineers and furniture designers are used to class A's with lots of room for cargo capacity and it shows they did not adjust their thinking for class C's which are minimalist. We bought the Navion J model and love it.
Neil, your reviews are incredibly helpful to those of us preparing to shop for used RVs next year! Consider sharing a prioritized feature matrix so we know what’s most important and who offers what. An all-inclusive 3 year 36k mile warranty should be table stakes in my opinion.
I can't agree with Mark, on his "More Fresh Water, than Black or Gray Water". One of the first thing as you pull into a site. Short or longer stay. You hookup to water. I like to spend less time a the waste trap!
5 лет назад
Outstanding comparison. Intelligent and meaningful. Flawless presentation save a few edit hops. Thanks you so much.
Probably the biggest is what comes standard on the Wayfarer and optional on the Navion/View. The most obvious is the 4 point Big Foot leveler standard Tiffen which adds 200-300 lbs. Then there are the furnishings like the heavy wood treatment and even grade of fabric/leather. Heavier wooden cabinets and do you really need the heavy wood panel on the fridge, or even the bathroom and wardrobe doors. The biggest problems with Navion is the option pricing. Diesel generator upgrade isn't that much heavier but is priced at full replacement cost as if your generator died with no credit for the standard LP that is in the MSRP, so you are paying for it anyway. Similar for other options like the 2 lithium batteries upgrade is $5000 where you can get 2 Battleborn's @ $1000 each, but it is not a straight swapout as other programmming does need to be made to the inverter vs standard battery. And then finally, you find a low MSRP Navion only to discover that it has a $8000 credit as they downgraded the Mercedes removing some of the safety (land assist, etc) and convenience (NAV) features.
OCCC for my 2021 Navion is only 886 lbs. Better to get a Class C that uses the Ford E450 cab chassis and have an OCCC of more than 3,500 lbs. and more towing capacity as well.
Good morning Neil!if you remember a few months back I told you we bought a coach house platinum lll...we absolutely love it ...but we were down to two choices and wayfarer was our other consideration.the smaller galley Space would not be a problem for me because we would definitely get the dinette which gives me extra space for chopping etc. and typically I preferred to cook outdoors anyway. I don’t like my bed smelling like food LOL I do love the new flat cabinets in the Tiffin and generally I just think it’s more my style. I love the white cabinets and light interior.I am hoping they do something about the cargo capacity. I am definitely keeping my eye on them as far as quality carriers listening to people that buy them and checking on their forum and Facebook page for problems. I think in three or four years I may buy something new hopefully with lithium and more storage. If I have a minimal amount of problems with the coach house which by the way we have had zero problems so far, knock on wood, I would probably get another one. We put a stowaway box on the back of ours for a little more storage space.We have twin beds right now and I would really like a queen size bed instead. I am happy that you are reviewing class c coaches! Keep up the good work… And if you come to Texas absolutely let me know. I would love to meet you although I feel as if we are friends LOL thank you again… I own a barbecue place and would love you to be our guest.Ruth
Wow RUth - that's very kind of you. If I come to Texas I will let you know. I love a good BBQ! Thank you so much for sharing your ownership experience with your Platinum III. I know that other prospective buyers will find it very helpful. Also thank you for continuing to be one of my loyal viewers even after you've purchased!
Ruth LeClere we recently had a factory tour at Coachhouse...VERY impressed with their build quality, floor plan, tanks, etc...We found one big downside, besides the high price, was the cab area. The ‘house’ side is wonderful then there is a cab that looks like it came from a fleet line of working trucks. So disappointing and actually the reason we have removed it from our list of potentials (it was #1). There are no updated safety features, navigation upgrades, dashboard/radio, 2 swivel seats, no heated seats, etc...looks and feels cheep on a $190k unit. We were really shocked at this. Back to the drawing board for us. Keep those class “C” reviews Co ing, Neil!
Barbara Callahan we do have heated seats in ours although they do not swivel....we sit at our dinette....so that did not bother us...I love the 4 season capability...we use our phones for navigation....we are a couple of Texas gals so we are used to trucks..lol good luck on your search
As an engineer, I scrutinize the details. Tiffin had such great reputation with class A's that when they came out with their class C I instantly jumped thinking it would beat out the Winnebago Navion. I could not believe the OCCC was a little over 500 lb. The Navion we bought is almost 1300 lb and it's fully loaded with the exception of the levelers which I didn't want because that's 300 lb. I don't understand how tiffin can legally sell an unsafe motorhome they know will always be overweight. If I were a Tiffin owner, I'd be frightened somebody would sue the socks off of me if we had an accident because being 500-750 from overweight is so easy to litigate. Avg individual weight 175 * 2=350 + fresh water 15gal*8.4 = 126lb + black 5gal*8.4=42lb + cold & unfrigerated food 100lb + linen, clothes, toiletries= 100lb + LP 40lb + tools = 40lb for Grand Conservative total of 798lb.
Neil I truly find it interesting how a manufacturer would create some thing like the Wayfarer With such limited cargo curing capacity and market it for people. And then I find it interesting how a manufacture that is building the Navion doesn’t put an opening window in the bathroom allowing hot steamy air to escape. Why can’t one manufacture is put together the ultimate vehicle and give us everything? Solar, macerator, lithium batteries, a one piece fiberglass roof, on off switches for like the steps, and most importantly carrying capacity. As a consumer if someone bought hey wayfarer Would they be able to beef up the suspension with Shox and more leaf springs to increase his carrying capacity of and drive safely down the road???????
i agree. it's the reason why i point out all these things. it's really hard to find videos on youtube that talk about the good and the bad of these expensive rigs. thanks for watching larry!
Great comparison as always Neil. As others have stated, the OCCC is almost useless on the Tiffin, especially given that it sleeps up to six. You almost would have to drive the other occupants separately. That is just criminal if someone doesn't pay attention to those fine, but very, important details. To be honest, the OCCC is low for the Navion as well but usable if your not taking a full load of people. One question I have Neil, regarding the build quality of these units, has Winnebago upped it's game on the 2020? Is it still stick and staples? How does it hold up to the Wayfarer standards? The only negative of the Navion, and it's a big one, is the propane for the generator (what a buzz kill). Also, the 2020 Navion/View models, if you haven't seem them, have seriously upped it's exterior and interior aesthetics from the previous models. I just wonder if the build quality has followed suit. In final summation, I would have to say the Winnebago wins by a knock-out with the significantly better OCCC, electrical package, tank sizes, galley and upgraded 2020 aesthetics.
Yes, I too was going to ask the same question concerning “stick & staple” construction. Also as far as colors go, for 2020 both are now offering White interiors and it looks like Tiffin has changed their cabinet doors to basic straight, square doors with a gloss white color.
Great video. With these smaller units I would personally do more Boondocking or Natl Forest with limited hook ups - so water capacity is very important. Second to that would the the carry capacity. Both of those would steer me toward the Navion, but in reality I’d have to go for a larger Class C where I would be able to carry more cargo.
Neil, back to CCC. I did not read all of the comments to this video; however, is there any indication or did you figure out why the cargo carrying capacity of the Tiffin is so different (less) than the Winnebago? Are the Tiffin accessories that much heavier? Miss-abeling? Creative weighing? Etc etc. Confused in Seattle.
Robin of RV Creativity needs to see your video and the table at 2:05. Her last video of her organization and walk-thru of her Tiffin is photographic proof to any insurance company that she is severely over loaded with cargo. She is an accident waiting to happen.
Excellent video as usual, and very interesting to see these smaller class Cs. One thing you normally mention but didn't go into this time was the build quality. Any comments about that? I really liked the Navion's features, but you usually don't recommend Winnebago because of their build quality.
Considering US prices for class B vans maybe you could review the Thor 19g class C as an alternative to class Bs. if enough interest is shown for 19g, maybe the manufacture will bring it back to the public instead of just selling to rental companies.
I don't think you are done with the B's yet. I'm looking at a Lexor FL very seriously because of the gas engine and generator. I also just came across the coachmen Beyond which has the same setup on a Ford chasis. Only one of your side by sides could help me narrow it down and I think these two are unique in the industry. Thanks.
Would love to see you do a full review of the Winnebago 2020 24D. My research so far has me zeroed into this model as the best choice in the small class C diesel market. Best OCCC with toad car capability. Murphy Bed layout approaches the interior space of a small class A (practically speaking). Love your full reviews.
You are amazing at differentiating the choices:) Thank you! I wish the Navions aesthetic design was as light as the Wayfarer.Shocking that Tiffin didn't consider cargo capacity! Also wish Navion had a skylight to see the night stars. Wonder if you can still get an oven option these days... Great job Neil!
hey there - head on over to www.winnebagoind.com and check out the 2020 Navion. It has a redesigned interior which is lighter and more modern. I like it.
Hi Neil: Could you please do a review of the Winnebago Navion/View. I really learned a lot while watching the Tiffin vs Navion video, but would like to see a more in depth review on the Navion/View. Thanks!
Thank you so much for this video, these are the exact two we are considering for an upgrade. Can you please explain the difference between the 2 types of refrigerators. Is one type better than the other? We like the larger one in the 2020 View but don’t really know much about the type. Thanks
I am probably around 2 years out and I am very interested and excited to see more class c. I'm also interested in trailers that weigh around 8000 lbs or less. Would like to find an rv that can tow a Ford Expedition or a trailer that can be towed by an Expedition.. Thanks for sharing about the cargo carrying capacity. Trailers explain it better but are so far behind driving rv's when it comes to generators, lithium batteries, solar panels, etc. I have been looking at a toy hauler because I have pets. I want a way to accommodate them. There just seems to be so much to consider when buying an rv. Your videos are extremely informative. I really look forward to watching.
Can either of the Murphy beds in these models be lowered with the slides in vs. out ? I'm also tentatively encouraged by the way Winnebago is upping their build quality in the new Boldt (getting away from "sticks & stapes"). Hopefully that will carry over to their other models soon...
Hey! Still trying to decide on what type of unit we want, B or B+. What are you thoughts on v 6 being able to climb mountains. Im in flat Texas so I have no experience with mountains. I was recently told v6 wont make it in the mountains
The best small RV review channel expands to Class C!! Hip, Hip, Hooray! Surprised you didn't start with B+ models first (no cabovers) but no big deal. Great point about CCC. Agree with your conclusions about Navion (and its identical sister View). Do you know if the low profile will be available on the Navion/View in 2020, eliminating the cabover? Great Job as always.
@@Ultramobility Right. The View/Navion could be had in a B+ version called "low profile" but heard that it might be going away in 2020 with redesign of cabover. Here's a LichtsinnRV video of what we're talking about but in a different floorplan: ruclips.net/video/Bllw3M1Jzag/видео.html
I know your telling the importance of not going over the capacity weight for braking safety reasons but you can tow a 3000 lb trailer that does not require brakes legally?
Unfortunately a side by side spec review is only half the review and something anyone can do without leaving the kitchen table. Whatever happened to touch, feel, quality, fit and finish, and drive reviews? You can’t do a proper review without driving them and seeing how everything works together. Build quality which is one of the most critical factors can’t be determined on paper from your kitchen.
Yep which is why i always to a full review in person. Every review can't be a full review which is why you need to head over to my Community Tab and vote for the coaches that you want me to do a full review on. The coaches that get the most votes get full reviews. Still these mini-comparisons are super helpful because they cover lots of things that no one else is covering on RUclips and they help buyers to narrow down their choices quickly and easily.
Also, sponsor Neil on Patreon. He does a great job of keeping Patreons informed, and sponsoring him will help him do more in person reviews. I have several people I sponsor and he's by far the best as far as keeping his Patreons involved and engaged.
@@Ultramobility Here's what I figure. The more I know, the better the decision I will make when I purchase. When contemplating spending over $100k on a vehicle I will only use part time, I need it to be right. I do not want to get into the cycle of trading RVs every few years. I want to understand the manufacturers and the industry. I don't want to be taken advantage of. When you think of it from that angle, spending a few dollars a month to support someone who does a good amount of needed research for me, and who may end up saving me thousands of dollars in purchase or repair costs down the line... it's an easy investment to make.
Hello great videos packed full of info . I have a question I have a Medwest passage It has 100w solar charger 225 amp hour battery my refrigerator is 12/110 volt how long should the battery’s hold . Thank for your help
depends on how often and long you may be driving. the engine alternator will do a good job of recharging your coach batteries. if you're sitting tho that 100w of solar will not keep your batteries topped up with a compressor driven refrigerator. you'll need to monitor and drive around if you see the battery level going down.
THANK YOU for hitting on the OCCC. Nobody else advertises that, and that is the single biggest downfall to these otherwise perfectly-sized RVs. Makes it unfeasible for a family of 4...
Great Job Neil! Can any of these two have the Murphy Beds down with the slide in? I heard that trifold beds can be really comfortable. Can a trifold replace the Murphy bed ? Is it illegal to ride with children in the back with 2 point seat belts? Seems like the Navion is more passenger friendly. I like the bigger galley over the bigger bathroom. It's nice to be able to shower and have all your clothes in the same area. How many seatbelts are in the back? The Wayfarer had 2 seatbelts facing foward and none facing back on the lounger? Does that mean passengers can only sit facing foward? The Navion has 2 facing each other. Are there seatbelts on the rear Lounge? CHP told me that if there are no seatbelts then none are required for those passengers. One RV dealer said that that's the limo law? What say you? Wayfarer Drive 2 sleep six? I've seen Class Cs with the overhead compartment jammed packed. With OCCC being what they are most RV are most likely over the limit and asking for trouble. Can and should RV'S use the weigh stations? Should they? Sound like the Navion will be better for dry camping.
I have to check if either can have the murphy down when the slide is in for my full review. I think they can be down but no walk around room. A trifold cannot replace the murphy bed. on the wayfarer you can replace the dinette with a tri-fold sofa. I wouldn't travel with kids in it. It's not safe.
No sure. My rig has shoulder restraints on front captain seats. Belts retraints for the sailors in the back. I sold my LTV because it did not have any kind of restraints for the passengers. We need to keep pushing these manufacturers. Sik em Niel!
These reviews are great, but would it be possible to show whether or not the beds can be used without putting out the slide? On both of these models it did not appear this would be possible.
I think it may be possible on the navion. there would be no walk around space though. doesn't look like it is possible on the wayfarer. i can confirm when i do their full reviews.
I suspect they're using heavier materials, like solid surface counter tops and maybe solid wood cabinetry, maybe heavier furniture...but that's just a guess. Also, if the hydraulic levelers are factored in, they weigh about 180 pounds. The Navion/View only has rear stabilizers.
How would a Wayfarer representative respond to you calling out what is seemingly a deal breaker? I’m referring to the low load capability. Not sure how they could design an RV with such a limitation. Curiosity to read how your pro-Wayfarer viewers would respond. Appreciate your quality videos.
I was so disappointed that Mercedes didn't come out with a stronger diesel engine in order to up the OCC capacity in these RVs. But I guess their more targeted market is the business side of things. ie Amazon and other companies.
MB has a 12k GVW Cab Chassis coming out. For some reason, WGO isn't going to use it. The engine isn't really an issue. The drive train is good for 15K GCWR.
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Your report is misleading. I purchased a brand new 2020 Navion and it must have been built the day after Winnebago fired the Quality Department. The coach door handle didn't work (might be installed upside down), the door didn't fit, the window behind the range was a fire hazard and had to be replaced (should be a recall) the electric plug receptacles are horizontal under cabinets so you need to lay on your back to attach, they picked the cheap version of the Mercedes Sprinter that doesn't have Sirus, the MCD blinds were switched out for a cheap version. The dealers couldn't fix so I had to drive 500 miles to Forest City. They kept the unit for 3 weeks and then I picked it up, all at my expense. Another couple came to my unit in the Winnebago parking lot and they had the same problems. The Winnebago lobby was full of people waiting for their repairs. Good thing its a big lobby. I traded in the unit with 7000 miles for another manufacturer that is much better. At best Winnebago can get an "A" for false adverstising. I am not here to advertise for another so I withhold the name of the like unit but it is night and day better.
As a cabinet maker I believe the quality of a RV must take into consideration the quality of the woodwork. Very few reviews go deep into woodwork quality.
Is the finish on the back of the door as good as the finish on the front of the door? Do you feel like you’re going to get a “paper cut” when you run your finger across the edge of the cabinet or door? What kind of fastners are used to assemble the cabinets? Do the drawers have dovetail joints? Are they solid wood? Do they have undermount self closing full extension drawer slides?
I own a 2020 wayfarer. Regarding the CCC, if it is a big concern just put 30 gallons on the fresh water (same as Navion) and carry less propane (because the generator is diesel) get you about 100-150#). Also, the Wayfarer comes with auto leveling. Which I would suspect is a bulk of the weight differential. It is too early for me to comment on overall quality but to me the Navion feels like a camper and the Wayfarer feels like a coach.
Who wants me to branch out to more Class C reviews?
As the time gets closer for me to buy my first RV, with the intention of eventually living in one full time, my focus has expanded beyond just Class B homes and into both Class C and truck campers. Any reviews you do on these are must watch features, so yes, please do expand your focus.
thanks for letting me know @Ralph Rainwater. I love Class C's and truck campers as well. Now if I could just meet my goal on Patreon to reach 100 patrons I could hire some help!
I'm now looking more B+ or smaller C, so I would LOVE you to do more of them! Maybe anything with a motor attached?
@Robin Nuttall - you've been a long time subscriber so you can imagine how happy I am to hear that you moving into making your RV lifestyle a reality! Noted!
Absolutely. I think with the demise of Hymer, you are going to run out of material.
The Wayfarer has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 11,030 pounds, a 15,250-pound gross combination weight rating (GCWR), and a stated net cargo carrying capacity of 1,150 pounds. A 5,000-pound trailer hitch is standard. The test coach was weighed with full fuel and water, a driver, and optional accessories. The scale showed a 3,580-pound front axle weight, a 6,620-pound rear axle weight, and a 10,200-pound total weight, leaving 830 pounds for additional cargo. With a front gross vehicle axle weight rating (GAWR) of 4,410 pounds and a rear GAWR of 7,720 pounds, that shows the weight is evenly distributed across the Wayfarer.
After owning 3 brand new Tiffin Class A motorhomes, we downsized to the 2019 Navion 24D and love it. The Tiffins were always back in the shop needing to get up to 30 items at a time fixed. With the Winnebago, our fix-list is only 5 items long after 6 months of ownership.
Paul - thank you so much for sharing your ownership experience! very helpful to others here and glad that you're happy with your Winne!
Did you ever own a Winnebago Class A and if so what was your experience with it?
@@Tableaux15 the winnebago class A diesel pusher Forza is interesting. I feel like the Navion/ unity fx require you to give up on sleeping spaces. I need to sleep 4 to 5 + one child.
@@dhirajjdewan8069 My question was concerning if he had had problems with a Class A Winnebago. I know people that had a Winnebago diesel pusher and they had hell with it right from the beginning.
Similar experience. 4 small items on our 6 month punch list. I'm picky so I was shocked.
If you are concerned about Customer Service no one compares to Tiffin! They are tops in the industry. Family owned since the beginning. We just attended a Tiffin Wayfarer Rally in TN and the company no only give educational seminars for three days they also had a Service Team there that went to every Wayfarer customer who requested and they make all sorts of minor repairs, adjustments and even replaced parts if they had them. It was awesome. As for OCC... we have a 2019 TW (twin bed) and fully loaded with gear and fuel and 1/3 tank of fresh water we weighed in just under the OCC limit. If you do a lot of camping in areas that does not have 30amp electric you will be really glad you have a diesel generator and not propane. It is much easier to find diesel fuel than propane. The diesel generator adds some weight over the propane one. As for ride quality hands down the Wayfarer outshines the Navion. It comes standard with Sumo springs and you will end up adding those to your Navion. literally no squeaks or rattles when driving the Wayfarer. I can't say that about the Navion. You will notice the difference immediately. You really need to compare the two and not look at specifications alone. Tiffin builds a better unit and guess what it is the number one Sprinter Class C topping Winnebago!
Thank you for sharing an actual owner experience!
My wife and I really like the Wayfarer TW so could you please tell us what the OCC is on your rig, we haven't found a Class C that has the same build quality as Tiffin, Thanks and have a blessed day
Jon Harney I am out of town for a few weeks and don’t have access to my RV so I can’t give you exact figures but I will say you need not be concerned. There were 160 Wayfarers at the Rally and no one had any issues or concerns. You can carry all the normal stuff that you would need to carry. I travel with a 1/3 tank of fresh water and other tanks empty.
One thing you should have mentioned: the Wayfarer comes standard with hydraulic leveling. The Navion does not. With the absorption refer in the Wayfarer, this is more important, less important in the Navion with the compressor driven refer (although you still want to be pretty level. Another thing that deserves mention: the Wayfarer does not come with a ladder, but the Navion does. I’m a Tiffin guy. I love my Phaeton, and I’d really like to love the Wayfarer. But, it seems to me that Winnebago is ahead of the pack in terms of tech. That said, I would have liked to see the Navion with extra fresh water capacity instead of extra grey water capacity. I say this to manufacturers’ reps all the time when I see them at shows...there is no need for larger grey water tanks if you have a small fresh tank. Overall, good job on the comparison though. Love your videos. I’ll be in the market to buy one of these (most likely) in the fall, in addition to my Phaeton. The Phaeton will be used for the longer RV park trips to escape the Phoenix summer heat, and the (most likely) Navion will be for Spring and fall 3-4 day trips to forest/lake/river/stream state/national park type campgrounds for some dry camping.
Hey @Mark Du Ree - thanks for watching even though you're a Class A fan! I hope to eventually branch out to Class A rigs. Good point on the hydraulic leveling jacks. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree that more fresh water is important. That black tank on the Wayfarer though needs to be increased in size.
Ultramobility boondock and be a bear. In the woods. Cause they do $&@“ there. Love your stuff. Get those long takes down, less jump cuts. Keep it up. You saved me from big mistake and would be literally homeless god bless!
Please more class C reviews Neil
We count on you.
Thank you
Thank you 🙏🏽 for saying that Mark.
Thank you for taking a look at these Class C's Neil! As always, love your vids.
you are more than welcome. really enjoyed it! will be branching out to more class C's this year.
I would love for you to review the smaller C’s like the Fuse and compass/gemini. Thank you!
@Allan Kawakami - noted!
What I understood from my sales person (via the Tiffin rep) re: OCCC is that Wayfarer is lower because they already accounted for the weight of tanks full. So, in your graph, you should add the 315lbs back in to the Wayfarer because it was already counted - Winnebago does not account for full tanks. You may want to confirm this before you share more videos with this claim!
The DOT defines OCCC NOT the mfg. Your salesperson is either misinformed or flat out lying to you. Wayfair in no way shape or form defines what OCCC is. When we were looking between the Wayfair and the Winnebago I was stunned at the lies told by salespersons at different dealerships. They had been working RVs long enough to know they were lying.
Personally, I like the option of the seatre theating.
LOL - me too! I love you viewers who are smart A$$es.
@@Ultramobility that's what she said. (Insert extreme cringe boomer face here, bow my head in shame and exit stage left)
One other thing to remember is, the chassis are Mercedes and are shipped over here from Germany. If you have a problem with anything related to the chassis (engine, electrical, batteries, etc) you will have to take it to a Mercedes dealer to get it fixed. My neighbor just bought a 2020 Winnebago on a Mercedes frame, same size as these, and has had to take it to Mercedes 3 times for different issues. Yesterday it was to replace a control module that required them to remove the steering column. Just letting you know.
this one was really helpful. I hope you do lengthy reviews of each unit. I'd really been looking at the wayfarer but I liked the better storage on the Navion and I like it's streamlined look. I hope you do more class c's as long as it is smaller class c's like these 2.
@Wendi martin i'm really glad that you found value in my video. makes my day. thanks for letting me know and noted on more class c reviews.
@@Ultramobility is the BUILD quality better then Leisure Class B Models
Navion on Galley but Wayfarer on Color....it is interesting how much more room there seems in the WHITE decor! Well done Neil, THX.
you're welcome! check out the 2020 Navion on Winnebago's site. new interior design is more modern.
Hi Neil, I just want to say that I have been waiting for this review for months now. The fact that your knowledge of RV’s and the integrity and honesty that you bring to your videos - exceeds most other RUclips influencers by miles. I am a couple of months away from purchasing one of the 2 RV’s that you reviewed and have been heavily researching both of these models. Sadly most of the RV dealers that sell these brands dont seem to have the latest facts or updates on the new 2020 models. My wife is hands down in favor of the Winnebago and I am still contemplating the Wayfarer. Clearly the View has now exceeded the Wayfarer in a number of areas including available Lithium which will come with a diesel generator as the option package, standard 2K inverter, standard Solar, airplane quality entry door, newly insulated front overhead cap, standard aluminum, wheels and almost double the OCCC to boot (makes you wonder how they did that) and yes they do have jacks, but not auto-leveling as I understand. Also colors of both interior and exterior are now almost identical between the 2 coach’s. Linen white is becoming a common choice for both. Once again, thanks for the review and thanks for keeping the manufacturers honest. I look forward to your update on this one.....thanks a bunch
thank you! also thanks for sharing your thinking behind these two coaches. looking forward to welcoming you into the RV lifestyle with one of them!
Remember you can hardly bring belongings with you in the Wayfarer. Big problem to me, and probably your wife. How can she run your lives on 100 pounds?
Thank You for Bringing to our attention the cargo carrying capacity that’s the decision maker for me. We needed the wardrobe
I disagree about the electrical systems. The Wayfarer comes with the diesel generator which is going to be more fuel efficient plus you will be able to use the same fuel tank as the chassis. Also, you didn't mention anything about the roofs. Another point to consider is the customer service aspect. I know that this is a big deal with Tiffin but don't know anything about Winnebago. Good video.
I swear the outtakes are the best part of your videos! :-D
The clapping and cheering at the end was a nice touch too!
thanks! that line about "seater theating" was the worse deliver of my youtube career!
Neil...glad to see you review Class Cs! Keep them coming! You didn't mention build quality on these. I think it's better in the Tiffin...probably why less CCC, Tiffin is using solid wood everywhere...
could be daniel. i'll have to reserve judgment until i do full reviews. my parents have a tiffin allegro and i have to be honest: not impressed with the build quality. hopefully tiffin's class c is better. we'll see...
@@Ultramobility I think the build quality is better on the deisel class A's and looks pretty tight on the Wayfarer's. Although, some of the Wayfarer floorplans are really awkward. Tiffin is new in the Class C market...I think they have some things to work out but they are on the right track. Navion also not bad...special lightweight cabinetry that looks OK. I test drove both Navion and Wayfarer, neither has too many squeeks and rattles. Thanks again for the review!
@Daniel Morean - I really want to see if either uses stick framing and staples. i'm pretty certain the Navion does.
A dealer that handles both told me that Winnebago weighs units empty and Tiffin weighs with full fluids and propane. Is this perhaps the difference?
I believe that’s something they are telling you to sell the unit. All occc ratings are with a full tank of fuel but empty holding tanks.
Thanks Neil. Great to see the C's. Tempting, all the room. But the nimbleness of the B is superior.
The vast storage under the lounge seats can only hold a lot of potato chips on the Wayfair according to those weight figures.
i think those potato chips would push it over its limit.
@@Ultramobility Any ideas on what might explain why the occupant & content weight capacity is so much lower on the Navion???
@@playhooky You mean lower on the Wayfarer? The Navion/ View probably has more light weight composite material than the Wayfarer.
@playhooky - probably in their cabinet construction maybe? i'd have to do a factory tour to find out. also if the wayfarer has more standard components those have to be counted against the occc.
Really appreciate your thought process and the way you boil down the choices so clearly. Makes it so helpful for people to decide on their own.
Also appreciate your repeated emphasis on OCCC. So often left out of reviews. Would the weight of fuel not also need to be included? About 175lbs for 25gal of diesel.
And your putting in additional visuals makes your videos stand out quite a bit. Encourage you to go even farther with those - maybe superimposing bed measurements and the like.
Usability with the slide closed would be good to include. I believe both can acccess the toilet & fridge.
Thanks again.
weight of fuel is already taken into account so you don’t need to subtract it out
At 2:45 you say that we are seeing the 2018 model year Sprinter cutaway chassis, but that the 2019 will be available later. The picture shown IS the 2019 model
oh you viewers :-) Yep you are correct that is an editing error and I knew some observant viewer would catch it. I caught it after I had burned the video during review but it was 10pm and I had to get it uploaded and get the thumbnail made before I hit the sack so... you found it!
Technically he was correct as talking about two different things and the 'model year' becomes confusing. Cutaway chassis model year refers to when they left the MB factory and the VIN# assigned. In that respect, chassis leaving in 2018 were the 'old' chassis, but the 2019 cutaway chassis he was referring to coming later is the "next generation" MB cutaway chassis. 8th digit back on the VIN identifies the year (I use to sell cars is the reason I know that). What makes it confusing, the 2019 model being reviewed is the build-out year where the RV was completed and named as a 2019 model despite being built on a 2018 chassis. In reality, no late build of a 2019 has a 2019 chassis, as those began with the 2020 models, and if they still had unbuilt 2018 chassis in inventory at the chassis, some manufacturers did a stealth transition mid 2020, or like Winnebago, created new models like the cheaper Porto to build on the remaining 2018 chassis and beginning the 2020 Navion/View with the next generation 2019 chassis.
@@larrygray1557 Kind of irrelevant now, 10 months later, but my point was that there was natural model confusion because of M-B's late-year model change. Right now I'm wondering what will happen to my favorite RV manufacturers, because people aren't traveling and many businesses are closing and destination parks are turning away visitors.
"No upgrade path to Lithium?" If that simple fact is wrong I don't even want to guess what else is. Am I to assume that my conversion to Lithium batteries was a figment of my imagination? I did it myself. Pulled out the lead acid batteries that came with the Wayfarer, dropped in two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries, dropping that weight in half. Oh, and for extra credit I added a Victron 712 battery monitor, a Battery Isolation Manager, and updated my Progressive Dynamics converter (none of these 3 extras I opted to self-install were required). Also noticed no mention of seamless slides. Loving my Wayfarer 24BW. Watched mine get built over three days while at their factory. For laughs they pulled in two competing rigs next to the assembly line to let their workers compare features and build quality. Didn't take long for parts to start to accumulate as they came off in people's hands.
Mark Lawler thanks. We are buying a wayfarer. I will upgrade the solar as you did. The batteries are also much lighter.
I have a question on the OCCC calculation. What I understand the OCCC already considered (deducted) the weight for the passengers, fresh water...
Here the definition I found.
Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) - The CCC is the GVWR minus the UVW, the SCWR, the weight of a full tank of propane, and the weight of all fresh water in the system including a full fresh water tank and a full water heater.
UVW - (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) - New in 1996, this is the weight of the vehicle as delivered with full fuel, oil, and coolant, but without manufacturer's or dealer-installed options and before adding passengers, driver, propane, or fresh water.
Sleeping Capacity Weight Rating (SCWR)- is calculated by multiplying the number of sleeping positions by 154 pounds.
Meaning that we have more capacity than we thought.
Oups! I have just realized that I took the old CCC definition that is different than the OCCC. The OCCC do not consider the weight of the fresh water and passenger. Sorry for the confusion!
Good job as usual in comparing! I can't believe Tiffin's carrying capacity is so low...it is almost unusable for anyone's purpose, and having all those places for people to sleep but unable to carry them is almost misleading. I also notice that the Tiffin has the same interior height, but exterior is about 6 inches greater--wonder why. That would certainly impact mpg and driving dynamics as well.
yeah the occc rating is always something to look for. manufacturers rarely like to talk about it. also i agree on the sleeping berths. why have them if you can't carry passengers in safety? not sure why the height is more on the wayfarer - i reached out to tiffin before the review but they never got back to me.
@@Ultramobility Pointing out these types of important facts is what makes your channel unique and highly useful! So refreshing.
@Majorie Hall - thank you for noticing. BTW, in doing this review I got a call back from Russ Garfin at Winnebago who had heard I was doing the review and wanted to answer any of my questions. What a treat and what a great guy.
@@Ultramobility Wow, Russ Garfin is a class act. Nice.
@Marjorie Hall - He really is a class act. He called me from the floor of a show just to ensure that I got all my questions answered. That says a lot about Winnebago and Russ.
Working up to getting a Winnebago View 24V. Rear twin\king bed, dry bath, cab over bunk, fold out couch bed. Meets all my needs. I'd love a B class but I need sleeping for 3 large adults with very different sleep schedules.
there's a huge jump in livability moving from a class b to a class C. huge. it makes a big difference for many use cases and needs. yes the rv is less stealthy but for many that doesn't matter. i love class c rvs as much as i love class b's.
Tiffin uses solid materials (countertops, doors, cabinets, etc. etc.) in their coaches including the Wayfarer. I had a coach that everything was paper thin. Countertops would buckle, walls were as thin as paper, you couldn’t lean on anything or hardly touch anything. I was a nervous wreck when we had several people in there. I was afraid someone was going to go through the wall or floor! Tiffin builds quality and stands right with their customer throughout any and all problems that may arise and yes they aren’t perfect but you want customer service that they offer when something does happen you will not have to go it alone. Thanks for sharing...
Latada thanks so much for sharing your RV ownership experience. some class A rigs are really flimsy. These coaches are much better although i wish both had longer warranties.
Yes, but that is why they are so heavy and can't be loaded with any cargo. 95lbs of net cargo carrying capacity is a joke. One good sized toolbox and some bedding and you are overweight. There is a woman who has a RUclips channel named RV Creativity that is terribly overweight with her Tiffin and she is oblivious to the issue. She thinks that just because she can cram more stuff into the available space that it is OK. She is a hazard on the road and possibly destine to a dangerous accident in the near future.
Yes on the Class C reviews. We are cash in hand buyers and have been appalled at what we see on the dealers property. The models we have interest in are the Navion/View, Wayfarer and Dynamax Isata. We have delayed our purchase now out of fear of what the quality is.
We have a fully loaded 2017 Navion and for the most part love it. The engineering is second to none, but the installation is only average to marginally average. Especially on a new RV one must retain the most anal RV inspector you can find. For example, the factory installers of our upgraded max fan did not seal screw holes in the flange on the hinge side. Therefore, we had water intrusion after 2 years. Next, the electrical installers failed to correctly secure the relays under the passenger seat as well as failed to correctly install the wiring to the circuit breakers which resulted in an electrical fire. Every drawer has to be taken out every seat has to be removed every furnace, truma water heater, air conditioner, toilet plumbing has to be meticulously checked. Otherwise, one will be paying the price later down the road.
I have a 2020 Wayfarer TW which has had nothing but issues, sink not hooked up, speakers not working, air-conditioner drain not hooked up, today I found out the the warning light on my dash about a rear light out was due to the Wayfarer wiring harness not have all of the connecters protected, Mercedes will not cover this under warranty and told me within a couple of years the whole system will most likely fail. Now back to Tiffin.
If you own one of these look at the connections under the rear of the coach to see if they ares sealed or just left uncovered.
Two BIG thumbs up (way up!) for reviewing smaller (
I know this video is 3 years old when I'm watching but it is very useful. It was helpful to have a floor plan back to back. The Tiffin has a shorter counter. And I don't like that.
The difference is that Winnebago puts the wardrobe in the bathroom and there is a smaller window.
One year warranty, shows their confidence..
Love the color scheme on the Tiffin. And I think the Diesel generator is a better choice assuming it sips off the gas tank. Just pack light 😀. Wow that cab on the new MBZ is a huge upgrade. What a difference. Tiffin makes really nice Class A motor homes. Didn’t realize they made Class C’s. The very first Class A I ever looked at was a Tiffin Allegro Breeze, it was the shortest one on the market at the time at only 25 feet! That’s short for a class A. Sadly they no longer manufacture them but still see them for sale used. If I knew I wasn’t going to be very mobile, that 25 foot Allegro Breeze would certainly be on my wish list as would this Wayfarer, really like the interior layout and the large bathroom is very nice.
ben, did you see the photo of the new 2020 Navion interior? very nice.
We have the Nav outside of the dang radio “which is a combo camera and other thing component”being replaced twice once under warranty and the other time at our expense at around 1k it has been great! I find we take more 6 hour or less trips than before with our old A and B class...I never towed a car! We’ve done Gatlinburg many times!
I love the “Seater Theating” option on the Waferer 😃😃😃😃. Great bloopers!
omg - i could not get that line out!
My review of these two Cs: the layout in both is BRILLIANT. Wayfarer’s interior is bright and BEAUTIFUL while Navion’s decor looks dreary-made of 1980’s leftovers. I prefer the Wayfarer’s placement of TV in the lounge rather than over the kitchen workspace. Still Nav’s solar set up and storage would make it my choice but ...I’ll wait fur the next model year to see if they come up with a decor I’d care to live in. Q: Can one sit up in bed?
Thank you! Been waiting on this! I knew you would do an amazing job on the comparisons, they’re so similar that it’s easy to miss some of the differences! 😎
Tracy, you got it. I'm glad that you found my presentation helpful. I try to highlight the good and the bad so that you can make an informed decision. thanks for the comment.
Thanks for this video. You saved us from making a big mistake ! We were ready to buy the Tiffin and then saw this video, re; OCCC capacity. That was a deal breaker...don't know how they can even sell it that way. Bought a new 2019 VIEW (Navion) and are very happy with our choice.
We were the same way When Tiffin first came out with their class C. The OCCC turn us off immediately. Their engineers and furniture designers are used to class A's with lots of room for cargo capacity and it shows they did not adjust their thinking for class C's which are minimalist. We bought the Navion J model and love it.
Neil, your reviews are incredibly helpful to those of us preparing to shop for used RVs next year! Consider sharing a prioritized feature matrix so we know what’s most important and who offers what. An all-inclusive 3 year 36k mile warranty should be table stakes in my opinion.
I can't agree with Mark, on his "More Fresh Water, than Black or Gray Water". One of the first thing as you pull into a site. Short or longer stay. You hookup to water. I like to spend less time a the waste trap!
Outstanding comparison. Intelligent and meaningful. Flawless presentation save a few edit hops. Thanks you so much.
I`m wondering how can the OCCC be so different when they both use the Sprinter chassis?
Probably the biggest is what comes standard on the Wayfarer and optional on the Navion/View. The most obvious is the 4 point Big Foot leveler standard Tiffen which adds 200-300 lbs. Then there are the furnishings like the heavy wood treatment and even grade of fabric/leather. Heavier wooden cabinets and do you really need the heavy wood panel on the fridge, or even the bathroom and wardrobe doors. The biggest problems with Navion is the option pricing. Diesel generator upgrade isn't that much heavier but is priced at full replacement cost as if your generator died with no credit for the standard LP that is in the MSRP, so you are paying for it anyway. Similar for other options like the 2 lithium batteries upgrade is $5000 where you can get 2 Battleborn's @ $1000 each, but it is not a straight swapout as other programmming does need to be made to the inverter vs standard battery. And then finally, you find a low MSRP Navion only to discover that it has a $8000 credit as they downgraded the Mercedes removing some of the safety (land assist, etc) and convenience (NAV) features.
OCCC for my 2021 Navion is only 886 lbs. Better to get a Class C that uses the Ford E450 cab chassis and have an OCCC of more than 3,500 lbs. and more towing capacity as well.
Wonderful review! Really appreciate your comparisons.
Thanks for watching!
Good morning Neil!if you remember a few months back I told you we bought a coach house platinum lll...we absolutely love it ...but we were down to two choices and wayfarer was our other consideration.the smaller galley Space would not be a problem for me because we would definitely get the dinette which gives me extra space for chopping etc. and typically I preferred to cook outdoors anyway. I don’t like my bed smelling like food LOL
I do love the new flat cabinets in the Tiffin and generally I just think it’s more my style. I love the white cabinets and light interior.I am hoping they do something about the cargo capacity. I am definitely keeping my eye on them as far as quality carriers listening to people that buy them and checking on their forum and Facebook page for problems. I think in three or four years I may buy something new hopefully with lithium and more storage. If I have a minimal amount of problems with the coach house which by the way we have had zero problems so far, knock on wood, I would probably get another one. We put a stowaway box on the back of ours for a little more storage space.We have twin beds right now and I would really like a queen size bed instead. I am happy that you are reviewing class c coaches! Keep up the good work… And if you come to Texas absolutely let me know. I would love to meet you although I feel as if we are friends LOL thank you again… I own a barbecue place and would love you to be our guest.Ruth
Wow RUth - that's very kind of you. If I come to Texas I will let you know. I love a good BBQ! Thank you so much for sharing your ownership experience with your Platinum III. I know that other prospective buyers will find it very helpful. Also thank you for continuing to be one of my loyal viewers even after you've purchased!
Ruth LeClere we recently had a factory tour at Coachhouse...VERY impressed with their build quality, floor plan, tanks, etc...We found one big downside, besides the high price, was the cab area. The ‘house’ side is wonderful then there is a cab that looks like it came from a fleet line of working trucks. So disappointing and actually the reason we have removed it from our list of potentials (it was #1). There are no updated safety features, navigation upgrades, dashboard/radio, 2 swivel seats, no heated seats, etc...looks and feels cheep on a $190k unit. We were really shocked at this. Back to the drawing board for us. Keep those class “C” reviews Co ing, Neil!
Barbara Callahan we do have heated seats in ours although they do not swivel....we sit at our dinette....so that did not bother us...I love the 4 season capability...we use our phones for navigation....we are a couple of Texas gals so we are used to trucks..lol good luck on your search
As an engineer, I scrutinize the details. Tiffin had such great reputation with class A's that when they came out with their class C I instantly jumped thinking it would beat out the Winnebago Navion. I could not believe the OCCC was a little over 500 lb. The Navion we bought is almost 1300 lb and it's fully loaded with the exception of the levelers which I didn't want because that's 300 lb. I don't understand how tiffin can legally sell an unsafe motorhome they know will always be overweight. If I were a Tiffin owner, I'd be frightened somebody would sue the socks off of me if we had an accident because being 500-750 from overweight is so easy to litigate. Avg individual weight 175 * 2=350 + fresh water 15gal*8.4 = 126lb + black 5gal*8.4=42lb + cold & unfrigerated food 100lb + linen, clothes, toiletries= 100lb + LP 40lb + tools = 40lb for Grand Conservative total of 798lb.
thank you for your comment
Thanks for adding class c to your reviews
You're more than welcome. thanks for watching @Matthew Blau
Neil I truly find it interesting how a manufacturer would create some thing like the Wayfarer With such limited cargo curing capacity and market it for people. And then I find it interesting how a manufacture that is building the Navion doesn’t put an opening window in the bathroom allowing hot steamy air to escape. Why can’t one manufacture is put together the ultimate vehicle and give us everything? Solar, macerator, lithium batteries, a one piece fiberglass roof, on off switches for like the steps, and most importantly carrying capacity. As a consumer if someone bought hey wayfarer Would they be able to beef up the suspension with Shox and more leaf springs to increase his carrying capacity of and drive safely down the road???????
i agree. it's the reason why i point out all these things. it's really hard to find videos on youtube that talk about the good and the bad of these expensive rigs. thanks for watching larry!
Great comparison as always Neil. As others have stated, the OCCC is almost useless on the Tiffin, especially given that it sleeps up to six. You almost would have to drive the other occupants separately. That is just criminal if someone doesn't pay attention to those fine, but very, important details. To be honest, the OCCC is low for the Navion as well but usable if your not taking a full load of people. One question I have Neil, regarding the build quality of these units, has Winnebago upped it's game on the 2020? Is it still stick and staples? How does it hold up to the Wayfarer standards? The only negative of the Navion, and it's a big one, is the propane for the generator (what a buzz kill).
Also, the 2020 Navion/View models, if you haven't seem them, have seriously upped it's exterior and interior aesthetics from the previous models. I just wonder if the build quality has followed suit.
In final summation, I would have to say the Winnebago wins by a knock-out with the significantly better OCCC, electrical package, tank sizes, galley and upgraded 2020 aesthetics.
I have to do a full review of the Navion to see its build quality. It likely still uses stick framing and staples but I have to verify.
Yes, I too was going to ask the same question concerning “stick & staple” construction. Also as far as colors go, for 2020 both are now offering White interiors and it looks like Tiffin has changed their cabinet doors to basic straight, square doors with a gloss white color.
A diesel generator has always been an option for the Navion.
Love these comparisons
Thank you
Going to rent the Wayfarer next month
you’re welcome
Great video. With these smaller units I would personally do more Boondocking or Natl Forest with limited hook ups - so water capacity is very important. Second to that would the the carry capacity. Both of those would steer me toward the Navion, but in reality I’d have to go for a larger Class C where I would be able to carry more cargo.
Neil, back to CCC. I did not read all of the comments to this video; however, is there any indication or did you figure out why the cargo carrying capacity of the Tiffin is so different (less) than the Winnebago? Are the Tiffin accessories that much heavier? Miss-abeling? Creative weighing? Etc etc. Confused in Seattle.
Robin of RV Creativity needs to see your video and the table at 2:05. Her last video of her organization and walk-thru of her Tiffin is photographic proof to any insurance company that she is severely over loaded with cargo. She is an accident waiting to happen.
i'm not sure what her occc is for her tw but it likely not too much higher so yes she should be careful with how much she's loading up her rig!
Excellent video as usual, and very interesting to see these smaller class Cs. One thing you normally mention but didn't go into this time was the build quality. Any comments about that? I really liked the Navion's features, but you usually don't recommend Winnebago because of their build quality.
Thank you very much I was trying to figure out which one. And your guide through each help me make a decision for the Navion.
Considering US prices for class B vans maybe you could review the Thor 19g class C as an alternative to class Bs. if enough interest is shown for 19g, maybe the manufacture will bring it back to the public instead of just selling to rental companies.
Thanks for being almost alone in disclosing OCCC
(head humbly bowed) you're welcome!
Any thoughts about build quality of the Winnebago Navion vs Tiffin Wayfarer?
I don't think you are done with the B's yet. I'm looking at a Lexor FL very seriously because of the gas engine and generator. I also just came across the coachmen Beyond which has the same setup on a Ford chasis. Only one of your side by sides could help me narrow it down and I think these two are unique in the industry. Thanks.
Good review Neal! Nice to see a review on 2 class Cs. Thank You!
@Carrie Jo - thanks for watching!
What's the point of lap belts if they can't be used for travel?
Would love to see you do a full review of the Winnebago 2020 24D. My research so far has me zeroed into this model as the best choice in the small class C diesel market. Best OCCC with toad car capability. Murphy Bed layout approaches the interior space of a small class A (practically speaking). Love your full reviews.
As usual, a good work. You became the reference in the industry.
thank you
You are amazing at differentiating the choices:) Thank you!
I wish the Navions aesthetic design was as light as the Wayfarer.Shocking that Tiffin didn't consider cargo capacity! Also wish Navion had a skylight to see the night stars. Wonder if you can still get an oven option these days...
Great job Neil!
hey there - head on over to www.winnebagoind.com and check out the 2020 Navion. It has a redesigned interior which is lighter and more modern. I like it.
Convection microwave no good? Curious
A skylight used to be the option we have it on our 2017.
Always informative and valued Neil. How would you rank the jayco Melbourne prestige, navion, and wonder in terms of quality? Thx
Peter
Hi Neil: Could you please do a review of the Winnebago Navion/View. I really learned a lot while watching the Tiffin vs Navion video, but would like to see a more in depth review on the Navion/View. Thanks!
I love the Unity Murphy bed version.
You do great reviews. Thank you, John
Thank you so much for this video, these are the exact two we are considering for an upgrade. Can you please explain the difference between the 2 types of refrigerators. Is one type better than the other? We like the larger one in the 2020 View but don’t really know much about the type. Thanks
I am probably around 2 years out and I am very interested and excited to see more class c. I'm also interested in trailers that weigh around 8000 lbs or less. Would like to find an rv that can tow a Ford Expedition or a trailer that can be towed by an Expedition.. Thanks for sharing about the cargo carrying capacity. Trailers explain it better but are so far behind driving rv's when it comes to generators, lithium batteries, solar panels, etc. I have been looking at a toy hauler because I have pets. I want a way to accommodate them. There just seems to be so much to consider when buying an rv. Your videos are extremely informative. I really look forward to watching.
really glad to hear that my videos are helping you! if you have any questions i'm happy to answer them here if i can.
Can either of the Murphy beds in these models be lowered with the slides in vs. out ?
I'm also tentatively encouraged by the way Winnebago is upping their build quality in the new Boldt (getting away from "sticks & stapes"). Hopefully that will carry over to their other models soon...
maybe the navion? i have to verify when i see one. also hope that the boldt's quality is improved as well.
No
Hey! Still trying to decide on what type of unit we want, B or B+. What are you thoughts on v 6 being able to climb mountains. Im in flat Texas so I have no experience with mountains. I was recently told v6 wont make it in the mountains
The best small RV review channel expands to Class C!! Hip, Hip, Hooray! Surprised you didn't start with B+ models first (no cabovers) but no big deal. Great point about CCC. Agree with your conclusions about Navion (and its identical sister View). Do you know if the low profile will be available on the Navion/View in 2020, eliminating the cabover? Great Job as always.
i love my fans! can always rely on you guys to make my day. not sure about a low profile navion/view. you mean like a b+?
@@Ultramobility Right. The View/Navion could be had in a B+ version called "low profile" but heard that it might be going away in 2020 with redesign of cabover. Here's a LichtsinnRV video of what we're talking about but in a different floorplan: ruclips.net/video/Bllw3M1Jzag/видео.html
Will review
I know your telling the importance of not going over the capacity weight for braking safety reasons but you can tow a 3000 lb trailer that does not require brakes legally?
I like the winnebago's numbers, but does it have to be so ugly inside? The wayfair looks really nice inside and even has very cool looking rims.
I would appreciate you branching out to class c reviews in the same format as the Tiffen / Winnebago. Gear job!
Unfortunately a side by side spec review is only half the review and something anyone can do without leaving the kitchen table. Whatever happened to touch, feel, quality, fit and finish, and drive reviews? You can’t do a proper review without driving them and seeing how everything works together. Build quality which is one of the most critical factors can’t be determined on paper from your kitchen.
Yep which is why i always to a full review in person. Every review can't be a full review which is why you need to head over to my Community Tab and vote for the coaches that you want me to do a full review on. The coaches that get the most votes get full reviews. Still these mini-comparisons are super helpful because they cover lots of things that no one else is covering on RUclips and they help buyers to narrow down their choices quickly and easily.
Also, sponsor Neil on Patreon. He does a great job of keeping Patreons informed, and sponsoring him will help him do more in person reviews. I have several people I sponsor and he's by far the best as far as keeping his Patreons involved and engaged.
@Robin Nuttall - thank you so much for the shout out. Really appreciate your patronage and support. always.
@@Ultramobility Here's what I figure. The more I know, the better the decision I will make when I purchase. When contemplating spending over $100k on a vehicle I will only use part time, I need it to be right. I do not want to get into the cycle of trading RVs every few years. I want to understand the manufacturers and the industry. I don't want to be taken advantage of.
When you think of it from that angle, spending a few dollars a month to support someone who does a good amount of needed research for me, and who may end up saving me thousands of dollars in purchase or repair costs down the line... it's an easy investment to make.
@Robin Nuttall - I will continue to work hard to create value for you and others. thank you.
Hello great videos packed full of info . I have a question I have a Medwest passage It has 100w solar charger 225 amp hour battery my refrigerator is 12/110 volt how long should the battery’s hold . Thank for your help
depends on how often and long you may be driving. the engine alternator will do a good job of recharging your coach batteries. if you're sitting tho that 100w of solar will not keep your batteries topped up with a compressor driven refrigerator. you'll need to monitor and drive around if you see the battery level going down.
truly enjoyed the video
THANK YOU for hitting on the OCCC. Nobody else advertises that, and that is the single biggest downfall to these otherwise perfectly-sized RVs. Makes it unfeasible for a family of 4...
Neil, where are you? Missing your reviews!
Mark: I’m thinking the same thing. Concerned if he’s OK.
thank you all so much. i needed a break. i am back now and making videos again
Thanks for the great presentation! can you do more small c or B plus van reviews they are great if you don't want to tow a car. Thanks in advance!
You need to update this to 2021. I’m interested.
Great Job Neil!
Can any of these two have the Murphy Beds down with the slide in?
I heard that trifold beds can be really comfortable.
Can a trifold replace the Murphy bed ?
Is it illegal to ride with children in the back with 2 point seat belts?
Seems like the Navion is more passenger friendly. I like the bigger galley over the bigger bathroom. It's nice to be able to shower and have all your clothes in the same area. How many seatbelts are in the back?
The Wayfarer had 2 seatbelts facing foward and none facing back on the lounger? Does that mean passengers can only sit facing foward?
The Navion has 2 facing each other.
Are there seatbelts on the rear Lounge?
CHP told me that if there are no seatbelts then none are required for those passengers. One RV dealer said that that's the limo law? What say you?
Wayfarer Drive 2 sleep six?
I've seen Class Cs with the overhead compartment jammed packed.
With OCCC being what they are most RV are most likely over the limit and asking for trouble. Can and should RV'S use the weigh stations? Should they?
Sound like the Navion will be better for dry camping.
I have to check if either can have the murphy down when the slide is in for my full review. I think they can be down but no walk around room. A trifold cannot replace the murphy bed. on the wayfarer you can replace the dinette with a tri-fold sofa. I wouldn't travel with kids in it. It's not safe.
It also would be great you see the inside of these units with the slide in.
So ok to carry grown ups in the back but not kids?
i guess you would have to be comfortable with any one being in lap restraints.
No sure. My rig has shoulder restraints on front captain seats. Belts retraints for the sailors in the back. I sold my LTV because it did not have any kind of restraints for the passengers. We need to keep pushing these manufacturers.
Sik em Niel!
Great review. Yes more class c reviews would be nice and I would also like to see reviews on these manufacturers customers service.
great idea about customer service! thanks!
how can Tiffin increase the cargo carrying capacity safely?
These reviews are great, but would it be possible to show whether or not the beds can be used without putting out the slide? On both of these models it did not appear this would be possible.
I think it may be possible on the navion. there would be no walk around space though. doesn't look like it is possible on the wayfarer. i can confirm when i do their full reviews.
@@UltramobilityThanks for the reply. Can't wait for your full review.
You had me in tears!
Thanks for the laugh & the review!
i had myself in tears! i'm usually pretty good with my takes. one take! but not this video...
Can you comment on the Winnebago 24v vs the LTV Unity twin bed?
Great video! Thank you for your effort
My pleasure!
Great presentation! Very helpful
Great reviews, thanks! Yes more C reviews, please. And could you please include some that are wheelchair accessible? The tempest has one, I believe.
thank you Sharon. Noted!
Thanks Neil!!! Very helpful
you got it jeff. thanks for watching.
Excellent video loved it!!
really happy to hear that Kyle!
Why the disparity in cargo-carrying capacity? Same chassis, right?
I suspect they're using heavier materials, like solid surface counter tops and maybe solid wood cabinetry, maybe heavier furniture...but that's just a guess. Also, if the hydraulic levelers are factored in, they weigh about 180 pounds. The Navion/View only has rear stabilizers.
How would a Wayfarer representative respond to you calling out what is seemingly a deal breaker? I’m referring to the low load capability. Not sure how they could design an RV with such a limitation. Curiosity to read how your pro-Wayfarer viewers would respond. Appreciate your quality videos.
I was so disappointed that Mercedes didn't come out with a stronger diesel engine in order to up the OCC capacity in these RVs. But I guess their more targeted market is the business side of things. ie Amazon and other companies.
that's exactly it jay. the manufactuers are hamstrung by the chassis manufacturers whose larger clients are folks like Amazon.
MB has a 12k GVW Cab Chassis coming out. For some reason, WGO isn't going to use it. The engine isn't really an issue. The drive train is good for 15K GCWR.