Calvinist Overlords and Open Theism: Predicting the Future of Ex-Calvinists
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- Опубликовано: 27 июн 2021
- Today I discuss my prediction of where ex-calvinists will end up on the theological spectrum when they finally abandon Calvinism.
I mentioned a docu-series by Good Fight Ministries called "They Sold Their Souls for Rock n Roll". There is a 10hr series or a 3hr. It will blow your mind! Here is the link to buy:
www.goodfight.org/product/the...
www.goodfight.org/product/the...
Here also is a link to the teaching by Joe Schimmel at Good Fight Ministries on "Calvinism Refuted": www.goodfight.org/product/cal...
Visit My Website: www.noncalvinistarchive.com/
Email Me: simplebibleman@gmail.com
#ReformedTheology #OpenTheism #Calvinism
I think you are doing great ! Keep it up. Your encouragement to those who have left the Calvinist fold to come out and make videos is an EXCELLENT suggestion. And Yes, I also believe and pray that as people go a little farther down the reformed rabbit hole they will be shocked into reality and reject the unavoidable consequences of that doctrine. The Calvinist cognitive dissonance is mind-numbing.
Thanks for the encouragement! Agreed!
1. Stop going to Reformed seminaries
2. Stop frequenting Reformed websites and sharing their articles
3. Ex-Calvinists must Get on RUclips and make a testimony regarding how you got out of Calvinism
4. Prominent Calvinist pastor or seminary professor who outs calvinism's failures
5. Don't be intimidated and don't be afraid of being called a heretic
Actually, you will be a heretic. One should fear that.
@@slamdancer777 Reformed are Gnostic. Not sure what's more heretical than that. And obviously you haven't understood Reformed theology if you think it isn't a heresy
@@slamdancer777 You just validated noel enliva's point. Calvinist are not putting their faith in Christ, they are putting their faith in THEIR DOCTRINE ABOUT Christ. Calvinist are NOT saved! Calvinist have turned their doctrine into a god and their intellect into a type of holy spirit. and have become disciples of both. I was deceived by Calvinism for 23 years and now I put my faith in Christ alone.
Calvinism is simply history repeating itself. Just as the doctrines and traditions of the Pharisees kept their followers from expressing and experiencing Godly love, now, it’s the doctrines and traditions of our forefathers, including those of John Calvin, that are doing the same thing. The doctrines and traditions of men contain enough truth to allow the enemy to lead us away from the narrow path just far enough, that our pride will keep us from seeking the way back. And as a result, we’re unable to express or experience the fullness of the Father’s love. Check out our teaching called: "Salvation Explained using the 5 points of Calvinism" for how we come to this conclusion. Blessings!!
Calvinist are not putting their faith in Christ, they are putting their faith in THEIR DOCTRINE about Christ.
Very nice video. Except that open theism was never defined. I made several videos on Calvinism. Next week another one will go life.
I think its not so necessary is its not being critiqued or defended, because then specifics of what it is or isn't is vital.
Instead I feel he's just topically riffing on his perception of trends.
As such labels are adequate, because it's just from the hip and isn't addressing what's true or not.
Audio is clear which is a great improvement over previous videos, but the volume is very low. If you could record at full volume, it would further improve the listening quality. Thanks
Open theism's strength is in the adherence to the plain reading of scriptures. The easiest converts to that belief, will be groups that previous staked their claims on "sola scriptura" because of this.
I think the groups who move to it most readily are Christians whose theology is completely organically and biblically tied to missions, to the great commission, to 2 Peter 3's more OT oriented conditional model of God's unfolding plan and providence.
Because of that my first exposure was from YWAM. I spent 3 years in YWAM and it was never beat over my head, but I ran into occasional teachers, lectures or books that speculatively raised the Openness perspective, along with Annihilationism, as well as a more interactive personal holiness model including 2 way communication with God, and a generally more semi-annimistic attitude towards the supernatural because of how often missionaries come under supernatural attacks and minister in a folk religion or occult laiden environment.
But I was a pretty grounded guy, so I took it all in on a tentative level but maintained a more CS Lewis style of Arminianism.
But after years (almost 2 decades) of wrestling with the Word over this topic, I can't deny its the most straight forward, yet non-wooden, and narrative affirming model of theology over God's revealed divine power in the context of relationship, covenant, history, soteriology and prophecy/judgment.
Good insight 👏
5:50 funny suggestion to subscribe to a magazine which shall go nameless here... How can I look it up if I can's spell it?🤣🤣👍
Thanks for the shout out. I didn't embrace an open view as a response to leaving Calvinism. But rather as a result of wrestling with what Scripture says. I do agree with you that radical open views are problematic and worrisome, but foreknowledge itself requires an open view.
There is a dangerous trend of a pendulum swing, where those leaving legalism run to liberalism, or those leaving liberalism run to legalism... from one extreme view to another. In that regard, many ex-Calvinists have run headlong into an extreme view of Open Theism which is extremely problematic. So I understand your concern.
However, acknowledging God is free and living, knowing both certainties and possibilities, able to make both conditional and unconditional decrees isn't an extreme reaction to Calvinism... it's just what the Bible teaches.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I definitely didn't mean to imply that you embraced an open view simply as a reaction to Calvinism. Just noting that you as an ex-Calvinist do embrace an open view. I myself am moving toward a more open view because it's all over the Bible. Main caution is for anyone to avoid extremes because of newly found zeal.
@@simplebibleman5792 amen and amen. I see that pendulum swing all the time. This is the danger of holding any theological position as foundational. When folks see it isn't they then begin doubting actual foundational truths or running back and forth between extremes. They may arrive at a truth, but that's not the way to get there.
So the first thing I always tell someone coming out of Calvinism is slow down, don't be in a hurry to settle anywhere. Keep digging and studying Scripture, pursuing as much certainty on a matter as possible. Then stop, write out what you believe and try to disprove what you've laid out... look for inconsistency, contradiction, etc.
This was a scary process at first but I really enjoyed the exercise.
@@simplebibleman5792 yeah it's important to stay strapped in when flying the friendly open theist skies. There's some crazy out there.
However, as someone who has teetered on the edge of Open Theism for 15 years before diving in, with a tentative state of mind, perhaps 6 years ago or so, I can tell you that the trend in vocal Open Theism has been that of one of 2 new trends: biblically conservative (like Sanders, Enyart and Fisher), and philosophically conservative (like Mcgrew, Wagner, Boyd... myself?), and the liberal strain, represented by Pinnock's speculative works, Ord, etc, these guys seem to not be gaining as much traction as "Dynamic Omniscience", or Fischer's pragmatically biblical view.
We're not the enemy. And the sooner people like Winger stop treating us like ignorant devils who MUST NOT BE LISTENED TO, the better. It's backward and unproductive.
It's a shame for us all that you stopped making vids ... maybe you'll sometimes do an ad-hoc video about where you are now with your views and what, if anything, has changed since you stopped RUclips...
This is a great video. Thank you so much for sharing. I was curious if you are still part of a Calvinist Church. If so, what is keeping you there? Do you plan on leaving? I am an ex-Calvinist and I’m still at a Calvinist church. I have been there 16 years and it is family. It is very easy to walk away from Calvinism but very difficult to walk away from all the wonderful friendships I have there. It is more of a “secret service” Calvinist church. They do not preach it every Sunday or talk much about Tulip, but if you know the doctrines you can detect them in the sermons. For the non-suspecting they are being indoctrinated and don’t even know it. They usually come out more boldly with the doctrines in the Sunday school theology courses, but not everyone attends those. would love to hear your thoughts. :)
We have actually been attending an SBC Church for 11 years now. More for proximity reasons and the people. It is not really Calvinist at all. Perhaps sympathetic to a few points, but that's it. Sounds like you're in a good Church overall. If it's solid, not hard determinist, and they are not demeaning toward non-Calvinists, then it sounds like a good place to be; especially if you have strong relationships with the people. I have pretty well concluded for myself that I could not go back to a consistent Calvinist Church unless I had no other viable option. But everyone is different for sure. You can view my original video of my full story here, it's only 22min long: ruclips.net/video/LWJsWNR_0NQ/видео.html
God bless.
@@simplebibleman5792 I watched it and really enjoyed it. That’s when I subscribed. Thanks for your response. Very comforting. It’s hard to watch all the leighton flowers stuff and not get worked up. I love his content, but I think it started to make me anti-calvinist and I’m surrounded by Calvinists, so that’s not good:)
@@AlanaL3 I can understand your feelings I think, but in perspective it's good to be anti-Calvinist. Knowing what we know, and what that doctrine professes, we cannot be otherwise. But it can be hard on friendships which are founded in and on Calvinism. Most people's fundamental belief system pervades every area of life. It can be almost unbearable experiencing the cognitive dissonance which is so evident within most Calvinists, and to which they are both seemingly unaware, as well as impervious, (it's their super power). When you hear those you care about speak in daily casual conversation in ways that are so much at odds with what you know they claim to believe about God, it does take a special 'grace' to endure it. I visit a friend's SBC church from time to time that has accidentally hired a 'stealth' Calvinist pastor who is focused on reforming the unsuspecting congregation and I'm so 'triggered' with what he says and the 'deceptive' manner in which he says it I spend the entire sermon writing rebuttals on index cards and stuffing them in my Bible !!! 🤣🤣🤣 I don't know how my friend is surviving, he resigned his long held position as elder over the issue, very sad. His 30yr old son has bought into it hook line and sinker, and has Piper going 24/7 in his earbuds. It has become the elephant in the room whenever they're together.
I went through this myself, never having been a Calvinist but being 'baptized' by fire running in to an old friend who has become Calvinist/reformed. I boned up on it with the help of Flowers/Thompson/ Hunt's book "What Love Is This" etc. My friend's daily conversation on any subject...every subject, was riddled with obvious inconsistencies I couldn't stand to keep my mouth shut for letting him get away with it. I expected more of him than what to me was literally intellectually dishonest. For me to have spoken like that holding to what he believes of Calvinism would be as if I ever said something along the lines of, " well abortion is fine you know"... and then find my self having to go back and clarify or correct myself... THAT would just never happen.
He condemned Obama as vile Godless plague on the face of the earth until I reminded him that He believed he was God's man for the hour and shouldn't he be pleased that God's will is being done in the earth and that abortion was advancing like a cancer in our society. He said I was right and that he repented... but I'm not sure I believed him🙄
The common saying is; Believe determinism is true but live like it's isn't. ( A double minded man in unstable in all his ways.)
Alana, I feel your pain, really. I pray God will give you wisdom in these relationships while holding on to what we know is truth, God loves all of His creation and gave of Himself to make redemption possible for all of it. Some will believe, some will not, .... Anyone can.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT I am very torn. I see/feel both sides. I wish it was easier to know what to do. How you feel at your friends church is how I feel very often at mine.
@@AlanaL3 My friend was in a position of influence and some authority as an elder in this church where he grew up. He abdicated that out of a sense of integrity not being able to support the new pastor. Now, a year later, he regrets this and is convinced he should have stayed at the table and kept his voice. You situation is different in that your church IS Calvinist and there will likely be no change in what they teach. True, it's tough. It's not necessarily the same, but there is some similarity to when a person gets saved and tries to hang out with all their old friends and still stay true to their new faith. Not the best illustration but not too far afield re; "what to do".
I remember when I first enjoyed, your interview with Warren/Idol Killer. I think you commented how difficult it was to "come out" and if I understood right, at least up to that point, not many, if any, of your friends knew you no longer embraced Calvinism. I am seeing more and more vids and comments from people who have made their way out of the ideology and taken off the 'glasses' which prevent them from seeing a more clear understanding of Calvinist "prooftexts". And understand the loving nature of our Heavenly Father towards ALL of His creation. These testimonies are much needed to strengthen and encourage others to know they're not alone. And to reject the fear of being called a Pelagius heretic which many Calvinists will declare them to be. The psychology of maintaining a paradigm to which we have been emotionally attached, and in some cases financially reliant, in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary it quite something. (a little K.Thompson thrown in for good measure😁😁)
This thought just occurred to me. I think I know the conflict you feel sitting in the pew and listening to sermons which carry the subliminal messages only you pick up on and with which you fundamentally disagree. My friend's new pastor prayed out loud saying "And Lord we know that Christ died for some...".... It went by so fast he had to play the fb tape 3 times before his wife even caught it that afternoon! I can relate to your struggle of wondering if your friends will still be your friends once they come to grips with your opposition to what they believe about God, and the logical conclusions of Calvinism and the questionable nature of God they're willing to accept?
Can or will they swallow their differences with what you believe in order to maintain friendship? How strong is the friendship if they will not?
In my lifetime I've experienced church splits albeit on a somewhat larger scale. Usually those who stay believe they're as right as those who leave and each begins to think the other is wrong for their choice to stay or leave. This inevitably throws cold water on the social aspects of their relationship and they move on in different directions. Coming to realize the friendship was more centered around being a member of the "club" than they realized. It's a little like one's friends at work after you get a new job.
I've experienced this with people we vacationed with for 15yrs and who even had me listed in their will to help take care of their children if they died. But who no longer call after we changed churches. Sad but true.
It's often the case that when someone leaves a church, or even doesn't attend for a few weeks, no one notices or cares enough to find out why on a personal level. There may be someone delegated on a committee to make a call from a list. They may not miss you as much as you think. You're on my prayer list for wisdom and patience,(the kind without the tribulation)😉
Will you please post link to they sold their souls for rick n roll? Thanks
Just added to show notes. www.goodfight.org/product/they-sold-their-souls-for-rock-n-roll-10-hr/
@@simplebibleman5792 Thanks for posting this link. I used to own the dvd set but lost it in a move. I’ve watched it many times and it always has an impact. On another note; I was, several yrs ago, starting to fall into Calvinism but it just never took hold and I’m grateful for that. Keep on sharing, these videos are edifying.
Lol. Rick and Roll.
wait, Mark Driscoll is no longer a calvinist? never thought Id see the day
it’s also funny how it’s encouraged and praised here to “come out” as a non-calvinist to your community. in this case, ‘personal experience matters’. It would be nice to see this same graciousness and love be given to those who come out with non-traditional sexual orientations, (or open views of the future for that matter). the only truth I see anymore is that we’re trying to figure stuff out and it’s REALLY messy. there needs to be LOTS of grace and love for PEOPLE. because everyone has views alternative to our own opinions and dispositions. you don’t offer that kind of love until you need it yourself, and then you understand. there has to be a willingness be wrong for there to be true humility.
What does God say about ?It's an abomination. Even if man validates that lifestyle, God doesn't. After the price that Jesus paid for me, me who didn't deserve it, I will gladly submit my will and desires to His will. Let God be true, and every man a liar.
I have a running document on my computer of all of the places in the Bible where God calls a man "good" or where God calls man to make a decision, and/or where God changes his mind in response to a man's or a nation's actions. The book of Proverbs talks about the law of sowing and reaping....if a man has no choice to sow to righteousness or wickedness...then what it the point of that book even?
To glorify God... God either knows all things or God learns things He doesn't know... one of these is biblically accurate and the other is heresy.
When reading verses you speak of we need to read it from the eternal perspective, God's not surprised by our choices, and He does not have to adapt to our mistakes or our plans. He works all things after the counsel of His will, and He does so eternally.
@@sendshaneemail thayd called eisegesis. You're assuming a Greek philosophically-derived concept of "eternity" which isn't found in scripture, and impose it on the text such that you are unable to actually read the text at face value without reinteroreting through the lense of the B-theory of time and/or a calvinist model of sovereignty which is never established by scripture.
I did not come to the view that the future is open because of Calvinism, I do view that God has planned out the future and that He is able to perform what He has planned, and no one can thwart his plans, I think this is clearly why God is all powerful and why He says nothing is too hard for Him, the big problem is the way you are looking at the future and what you believe time is. you might not realize this but your view of time you force on the scripture, the future has not happened, God knows what is going to happen because He has planned for the events that will happen, if you watch when Leighton has Brian Wagner on Soteriology, he has a really good view of open theism, which I really think is Biblical, I really think a plain reading of Genesis 6:6 which I assume you have taken into account supports an open theist view, really appreciate your videos on Calvinism
Amen. Good thoughts. I know some of Brian Wagner's view, and it does seem very Biblical. I think an Open View is really the default view of Scripture. It's only teased out differently by its proponents.
Also, thanks for the kind comments on videos of Calvinism
I love Mike Winger but even he is binding more to church history rather than taking an honest look at the open view. I mean, a biblical open view. There is one.
Well said. Winger does have some really great stuff. I'm always amazed at Protestants who hold firmly to Sola Scriptura only to appeal to ancient Church councils or historical figures that supposedly settled the matter once and for all.
@@simplebibleman5792 "... that supposedly settled the matter once and for all. " That is the key right there, you nailed it. I have to be honest, my journey into the open view is a bit jaded and I by no means have it in my mind as a sure thing. But it's jaded because since I first learned of the classical view of how God works and how he judges and how hell (eternal conscious suffering) seems so inevitable for the masses... learning all of that completely destroyed my childhood thoughts of God as a loving father to everyone. I mean... i was blessed with a loving family... but my parents disciplined harshly at times and it was for the better, it helped keep me more on the straight and narrow... but the discipline was temporary, not permanent like hell. God's love is supposed to be unconditional and steadfast but i struggle so badly in my mind and heart trying to praise and worship Him when the threat of hell feels more like a gun to head rather than just loving Him simply because He loves me, like a real relationship. So I've come to the conclusion we are greatly misunderstanding many things in the Bible, the nature of some of the things God did in the old testament and even the nature of what hell actually is. Otherwise, it's so hard to marry things like the prodigal son story or how Jesus treats sinners to things like the story of nadab and abihu or stoning violators of the law outside if the camp. I pray about it all the time, trying to patiently wait on him. I'm just afraid He already has answered with what augustine and others have come up with. If that's the case then I have to find a way to deal.
And what so many staunch calvinistic types don't understand is this isn't me trying to rebel against God... this is me feeling a general love and hope for even individuals that probably kill for fun. I pity them. I don't buy the idea of purgatory or universalism, but if it were true calvinists almost seem like they'd be angry about it. Almost like how the pharisees were angry that someone came and told them a lot of what they believed, was wrong all that time. I just see so many parallels of the pharisees to the religious elite from around augustines time onward
@@keithjacoby6635 Thanks for your candor. God is love. It is part of His nature (1 Jhn 4:8). Justice is also part of his nature. The topic of punishment for those outside of Christ is getting more attention these days. With many rejecting Hell altogether. I see this from the more so-called "Progressive Christian" side.
I would sincerely caution anyone against this. It seems more reactionary than anything. There may be differing views on what it actually looks like, but to abandon it wholesale would be to reject so much of what the Bible, particularly from the lips of Jesus, has to say on this subject. Conditional mortality is coming more into the mainstream alongside the traditional view. The universal view, however, is inherently structured in such a way to permit anti-nomianism, whether its adherents are anti-nomian themselves or not.
I'm not sure where you fall on these views exactly, but I just caution anyone who is moving toward the sometimes slippery slope of a more open view from sliding headlong into unbiblical characterizations of God and his final justice.
Mike Winger isn't perfect... the one thing we need to adhere to is biblical truth and not how we feel about a verse... our perspective should be God's perspective and not our own perspectives...
Simple Bible Man, you are a humanists, your theology is based on your own perspective... all your videos are you sharing your perspective...
I haven't seen a good argument for Arminianism theology... ever..
Look up Matt Slick or Greg Koukl, they are challenged plenty and defend Calvinism ie Eternal Security etc...
Simple Bible Man you have a limited opinion, look these guys up and openly show them in error... biblically.
"That God can hypothetically sin"
That's not unbiblical. The bible doesn't rule out hypotheticals, it rules out that God EVER WILL sin.
That's what faith is for, because we TRUST God. You don't have to trust a fixed necessary algorithm to keep being a fixed necessary algorithm. God isn't a fixed necessary algorithm.
He's necessary in that he's self existent and everything else is contingent on him in sime sense, but his will can't be necessary if he's in any sense free. His goodness flows from his character which is defined by his good choices in light of the alternatives.
That he hypothetically can do otherwise is what it means to be a volitional agent. Trust is relational. Faith is in him as a personal God with promises and goals, not in a fact set of assertions.
That's definitely true on search for Calvinism. Even DDG is starting to get bad on legitimate search. That should tell us a lot. But I do pray for the Calvinist who are in this system that aren't trying to deceive. They are just caught in the web like a flie.
Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, something personal not doctrinal.
Where will they end up? Leightonism. Man-centered and man-elevating theology. Molinism. Open Theism. Easy Believism. When people give up Biblical doctrines, they don't wind up in any good places.
I'm glad you mentioned Leighton Flowers. What a hero. A voice crying in the wilderness to Calvinist's who desperately need to heed his message of God's love and provision for all people.
@@simplebibleman5792
Sir, the express teaching of Scripture is that Christ was “delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because (on account of) our justification” (Romans 4:25). This passage clearly asserts that those for whose offenses Christ died, for their justification He rose. If Christ died for all mankind, all must also be justified, or the Lord fails in His aim and design.
@@lawrencestanley8989 "Memento Mori" An interesting icon to represent a preachy calvinist. Your theology leads to death. Perhaps that explains your meditation and promotion of death.
@@johnriegle7099
Perhaps you should research the use of the phrase in the early church. And then do some research on what Calvin actually taught because apparently you don't know.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Yep, they love using John Calvin as their strawman. It's what the Bible teaches, not John Calvin. I must add, that Easy Believism is another man-made term, because if you hold to that Man is DEAD in trespass and in sin (like the bible teaches), then it's NOT easy to believe ;)