Hey guys, just something I've been noticing lately but sometimes fix my list seems to be turning into build a list. For example, in the Kauyon list, you only kept the Stealthsuits and the Riptides, everything else was either deleted or loadout swapped into a completely new unit and the final result was a very different Kauyon list to what was proposed with almost nothing in common with the original list. I know you're a competitively focussed channel (I've learnt a lot even without being able to afford to be a war room member) and naturally certain options are going to be more competitive but I feel like fix my list is the chance to explore alternate build themes and really try your best to make just the smallest adjustments you can to edge a list in the right direction without completely dismantling it. Anyway, feel free to completely ignore me, just my tiny little bit of feedback on one of my favourite types of video you guys do, as always, thanks for the vid! :D
I second this. It does feel a bit like delete XYZ sub-optimal units and add these auto-take units, which are most often 3 Riptides, Breachers and Sunforge. If that is the case then Tau does not seem as balanced as an army internally as it is portrayed, or it just does not have enough options available to really be diverse.
I'd put a limit of max changing 20% of the army approx . I might not have x more crisis, so my idea is, with what I have plus some small changes, how can I make the most out of it
I think its tricky, maybe with the submissions they need people to state what they feel is the core and what they want to keep. Otherwise, they'd have to just kinda guess what the submitter wanted to build around.
Mech-wise: Most of the Imperium is the Battleteck faction, Eldar is the Evangelion faction, Knights is the Gundam faction, Tau is the Armored core faction
I 3d printed gundam00 bodies for all my suits in 3 different sizes (crisis, broadside, riptide) but used the normal weapons so its easy to read for opponents who die for the greater good. "Celestial being" is a very tau thing to implement on the imperiums worlds.
Old video, but in case anyone is watching this in later 2024, Flamer Starscythes do have a specific use in Ret Cadre-only. If you're running a Crisis-heavy list (I have one that runs no breachers, no kroot, no strikes, no pathfinders), you don't have enough sighting units. Flamer Starscythes become a very punchy sighting unit that's pretty good at holding objectives due to their extremely dangerous Overwatch. If they eat a charge, they can overwatch after the charge move due to Big Guns Never Tire for -2 AP +1 STR against anything non-monster/non-vehicle charging them. It's enough to kill 2.5 Exalted Oathbound on average with Overwatch. Throw a Flamer Enforcer on them for -1 enemy AP, and you have an extremely durable OC unit that can sight without penalty for other Crisis units deep-striking in.
@@brandongama9887 Fire Overwatch says "starts or ends a [...] charge move." Target is "one unit within 24" of that enemy unit that would be eligible to shoot if it were your Shooting phase." Big Guns Never Tire says "units are eligible to shoot in their controlling player's Shooting phase even while they are within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units." A charged vehicle unit is eligible shoot if it were their shooting phase and the target is the eligible target enemy unit that just charged them. I fail to see the issue.
@@Russlem just because it says “as if it were your shooting phase, does not mean it is your shooting phase. Big guns never tire states it needs to be the controlling players shooting phase. So it doesn’t work 🤷♂️
Edit: It does however work at the start of the charge. If you're charged from behind cover it wont work. Or if you are in engagement range already and try to overwatch something passing by it wont work
@@brandongama9887 The stratagem says the target can end a charge move as the trigger. Charge moves must end in engagement range which disables shooting. If Big Guns Never Tire didn't work, why would the stratagem include this stipulation if the activating condition literally disables all shooting? Specific beats general, does it not?
railgun hammerheads are statistically way better than ion hammerheads against vehicles with invulnerable saves. and ion hammerheads are pretty terrible into horde armies they only get 6.5 shots on average plus a few extra shots with blast if youre lucky. IMO hammerheads are railguns or not at all. If I want something big with anti-horde ill just go with a burst cannon riptide instead which gives you 12 shots with 2 damage each to help get past FNPs.
How would you build out the Broadsides in the Montka list? They said probably take Weapon Support System. What should go with it? Missile Drones and Twin Plasma Rifle or Missile Drones and Seekers? Something else?
broadsides are terrible at 110 points i wouldnt use them at all. for 20 more points you get a hammerhead. i dont know what they were thinking making broadsides 110 points. They should be 100 at most but I think they were fine at 90.
For the first list when you needed to fill 70 points. What about two units of krootox riders? Think people are sleeping on these guys for cheap action units and scoring points.
Typically what you do is have at least one or two devilfish tucked safely into cover. You jump breachers out of them and and then jump a new squad into the empty devilfish, staging for next turn.
@@startingfromlevelone9510 not if you target flying units. i take one skyray specifically to counter necrons and inceptors and a few other niche things that fly and have 3 wounds. i would not take 3 skyrays. 1 skyray and 2 hammerheads works great though.
I was super hyped for Tau but sadly seeing both Montka and Kauyon basically play the same stuff and just cutting everything fun for Breachers really makes me sad. I know its optimal I just wish it wasnt xD
Feels bad to see all of the Ghostkeels get cut in the Ret Cadre list. I personally love running a pair in mine, one as a forward deployed fusion to threaten opponents' tanks and take the heat off the rest of my suits, and one with a cyclic that generally protects the backfield fairly safely. I certainly don't play against the calibur of players that Richard does though, so I definitely respect his opinion 🤣👍
ghostkeels are bad for 160 points. they are way overcosted. for 20 more points you can just get a riptide which gives you way more threatening firepower on a tougher body with an invulnerable save. For 60 less points you get shadowsun whos a better lone operative.
Seems like the average player is underwhelmed when they play as Tau. While I appreciate a few tactics I can employ as Tau, I personally find a lot to be lacking in pretty much every game I play. What I have noticed however, is the pro players who just spam breachers when they can (seigler, pantheon studios, Kyle Grundy) have an absolute hard on for the faction. I think that breachers being so relatively good props up the faction and is a crutch for its shortcomings for a most people
Kroot detachments have been doing well with no breachers. Let’s be real though, majority of armies have those 2-3 units that are basically an auto include in almost every list.
I keep hearing you guys say Tau are A tier but haven’t seen a lot of wins from them on the bigger tourney stages. I keep seeing a lot of data showing them on the lower end of winning in tournies compared to a large amount of over factions.
The lack of variety in seemingly every army has taken the fun out of 40k, period. Nothing actually resembles an actual army, let alone a real wargame. It's just spam a few things that are good, ignore 90% of the book. it's ridiculous IMHO. Been in this hobby since 1996 and it's the worst it's ever been IMHO unless you're a meta-chaser who doesn't care about anything else. It's basically a dice game with minis as counters now, not a wargame.
@@brianhutton2370 easier said than done with barely any support from GW, and the same core rules causing issues. GW really dropped the ball on having something in between "seasonal tournament mission" and "narrative campaign". There's nothing there anymore for people who just want to have casual for-fun games without it being part of Crusade or tournament style.
If you’re not playing competitively, then it doesn’t really matter. Just pick the units you want to play and find other players that play causally. As for balance of the game, 10th is far better than the past few editions.
Hey guys, just something I've been noticing lately but sometimes fix my list seems to be turning into build a list. For example, in the Kauyon list, you only kept the Stealthsuits and the Riptides, everything else was either deleted or loadout swapped into a completely new unit and the final result was a very different Kauyon list to what was proposed with almost nothing in common with the original list. I know you're a competitively focussed channel (I've learnt a lot even without being able to afford to be a war room member) and naturally certain options are going to be more competitive but I feel like fix my list is the chance to explore alternate build themes and really try your best to make just the smallest adjustments you can to edge a list in the right direction without completely dismantling it. Anyway, feel free to completely ignore me, just my tiny little bit of feedback on one of my favourite types of video you guys do, as always, thanks for the vid! :D
I second this. It does feel a bit like delete XYZ sub-optimal units and add these auto-take units, which are most often 3 Riptides, Breachers and Sunforge. If that is the case then Tau does not seem as balanced as an army internally as it is portrayed, or it just does not have enough options available to really be diverse.
I third this.
That's how these segments have always gone.
I'd put a limit of max changing 20% of the army approx . I might not have x more crisis, so my idea is, with what I have plus some small changes, how can I make the most out of it
I think its tricky, maybe with the submissions they need people to state what they feel is the core and what they want to keep. Otherwise, they'd have to just kinda guess what the submitter wanted to build around.
Wow, I love when my favorite team from my favorite tabletop wargame discusses my favorite RTS and some of my favorite players - Maru and Serral ❤
Many of us went to see the Starcraft matches after our games were done!
@@ArtofWar40k so cool! It would be very interesting to learn what are the faction preferences of the AoW team in SC2 😻
Shoutout to kroot grenades. Noone sees the danger of that coming :'D
Mech-wise: Most of the Imperium is the Battleteck faction, Eldar is the Evangelion faction, Knights is the Gundam faction, Tau is the Armored core faction
I 3d printed gundam00 bodies for all my suits in 3 different sizes (crisis, broadside, riptide) but used the normal weapons so its easy to read for opponents who die for the greater good. "Celestial being" is a very tau thing to implement on the imperiums worlds.
With the new point changes what would you say is the best updates to a montka list should be
Did I hear that right? In Kauyon, the guiding unit get sustained turn 3-5 on the spotted unit; in addition to the guided unit? Great vid, thanks.
Yes sir!
Skyrays feel reaaaaaaaaaaaaly good... surprised not mentioned at all
Old video, but in case anyone is watching this in later 2024, Flamer Starscythes do have a specific use in Ret Cadre-only. If you're running a Crisis-heavy list (I have one that runs no breachers, no kroot, no strikes, no pathfinders), you don't have enough sighting units. Flamer Starscythes become a very punchy sighting unit that's pretty good at holding objectives due to their extremely dangerous Overwatch. If they eat a charge, they can overwatch after the charge move due to Big Guns Never Tire for -2 AP +1 STR against anything non-monster/non-vehicle charging them. It's enough to kill 2.5 Exalted Oathbound on average with Overwatch. Throw a Flamer Enforcer on them for -1 enemy AP, and you have an extremely durable OC unit that can sight without penalty for other Crisis units deep-striking in.
Big guns never tire doesn’t work for fire overwatch
@@brandongama9887 Fire Overwatch says "starts or ends a [...] charge move." Target is "one unit within 24" of that enemy unit that would be eligible to shoot if it were your Shooting phase." Big Guns Never Tire says "units are eligible to shoot in their controlling player's Shooting phase even while they are within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units."
A charged vehicle unit is eligible shoot if it were their shooting phase and the target is the eligible target enemy unit that just charged them. I fail to see the issue.
@@Russlem just because it says “as if it were your shooting phase, does not mean it is your shooting phase. Big guns never tire states it needs to be the controlling players shooting phase. So it doesn’t work 🤷♂️
Edit: It does however work at the start of the charge. If you're charged from behind cover it wont work. Or if you are in engagement range already and try to overwatch something passing by it wont work
@@brandongama9887 The stratagem says the target can end a charge move as the trigger. Charge moves must end in engagement range which disables shooting. If Big Guns Never Tire didn't work, why would the stratagem include this stipulation if the activating condition literally disables all shooting? Specific beats general, does it not?
railgun hammerheads are statistically way better than ion hammerheads against vehicles with invulnerable saves. and ion hammerheads are pretty terrible into horde armies they only get 6.5 shots on average plus a few extra shots with blast if youre lucky. IMO hammerheads are railguns or not at all. If I want something big with anti-horde ill just go with a burst cannon riptide instead which gives you 12 shots with 2 damage each to help get past FNPs.
No thoughts for adding Darkstrider to one of the pathfinder units in retaliation?
I’m surprised you didn’t use Darkstrider at all?
I was also wondering why he was not considered for the first two list. Has the meta changed so much that it is not a requirement?
How would you build out the Broadsides in the Montka list? They said probably take Weapon Support System. What should go with it? Missile Drones and Twin Plasma Rifle or Missile Drones and Seekers? Something else?
broadsides are terrible at 110 points i wouldnt use them at all. for 20 more points you get a hammerhead. i dont know what they were thinking making broadsides 110 points. They should be 100 at most but I think they were fine at 90.
They are taking missiles at every option, potentially swapping the seeker misile out for the weapon support system.
For the first list when you needed to fill 70 points. What about two units of krootox riders?
Think people are sleeping on these guys for cheap action units and scoring points.
On the Montka list, how would you use the 2 breacher units not with a devilfish?
Typically what you do is have at least one or two devilfish tucked safely into cover. You jump breachers out of them and and then jump a new squad into the empty devilfish, staging for next turn.
@@patrick_fell_over ahh makes sense thanks
3 skyrays feel so good in every list. I use em instead of pathfinders in ret cadre
Interesting tech, it has the markerlight keyword? Also don’t they then miss out on being spotted?
@@startingfromlevelone9510 not if you target flying units. i take one skyray specifically to counter necrons and inceptors and a few other niche things that fly and have 3 wounds. i would not take 3 skyrays. 1 skyray and 2 hammerheads works great though.
I was super hyped for Tau but sadly seeing both Montka and Kauyon basically play the same stuff and just cutting everything fun for Breachers really makes me sad. I know its optimal I just wish it wasnt xD
maybe if fire warriors were not as trash and were more points effective, we might see some list variation, but at 80 right now they're hot garbage
For the Algorithm!!!
T'au let's gooo!
Feels bad to see all of the Ghostkeels get cut in the Ret Cadre list. I personally love running a pair in mine, one as a forward deployed fusion to threaten opponents' tanks and take the heat off the rest of my suits, and one with a cyclic that generally protects the backfield fairly safely.
I certainly don't play against the calibur of players that Richard does though, so I definitely respect his opinion 🤣👍
I felt it in my soul when he dunked on ghostkeels
Who are you talking to? I was finishing up assembling my 3rd ghostkeel as I was watching this so….
ghostkeels are bad for 160 points. they are way overcosted. for 20 more points you can just get a riptide which gives you way more threatening firepower on a tougher body with an invulnerable save. For 60 less points you get shadowsun whos a better lone operative.
No Kroot? 😢
Seems like the average player is underwhelmed when they play as Tau. While I appreciate a few tactics I can employ as Tau, I personally find a lot to be lacking in pretty much every game I play. What I have noticed however, is the pro players who just spam breachers when they can (seigler, pantheon studios, Kyle Grundy) have an absolute hard on for the faction. I think that breachers being so relatively good props up the faction and is a crutch for its shortcomings for a most people
Kroot detachments have been doing well with no breachers.
Let’s be real though, majority of armies have those 2-3 units that are basically an auto include in almost every list.
I keep hearing you guys say Tau are A tier but haven’t seen a lot of wins from them on the bigger tourney stages. I keep seeing a lot of data showing them on the lower end of winning in tournies compared to a large amount of over factions.
This past weekend they had several event wins with different detachments
Yeah, we arent looking at the same win rates if you think this is A tier.
MFM?
Munitorum Field Manual
The lack of variety in seemingly every army has taken the fun out of 40k, period. Nothing actually resembles an actual army, let alone a real wargame. It's just spam a few things that are good, ignore 90% of the book. it's ridiculous IMHO. Been in this hobby since 1996 and it's the worst it's ever been IMHO unless you're a meta-chaser who doesn't care about anything else. It's basically a dice game with minis as counters now, not a wargame.
play narrative.
@@brianhutton2370 easier said than done with barely any support from GW, and the same core rules causing issues. GW really dropped the ball on having something in between "seasonal tournament mission" and "narrative campaign". There's nothing there anymore for people who just want to have casual for-fun games without it being part of Crusade or tournament style.
you can always use legends units if you want more variety
If you’re not playing competitively, then it doesn’t really matter.
Just pick the units you want to play and find other players that play causally.
As for balance of the game, 10th is far better than the past few editions.
Let me fix the Tau lists.
Pick them up in your right hand, throw them out the window.
You are now free