Amazing video and concept to share! One thing i would like to highlight is that a 2 wave cycle is the best strategy to get the most amount of trading windows onto the enemy champion by pressuring them off their last hits or rather trading with them if they decide to last hit. This can be taken to the next level by being very intentional with every auto attack on the wave and desyncing the minion hp from your and enemies minions so you can put your full mental stack on trading without losing creeps. Chovy is the absolute master of this i really recommend studying every single of his auto attacks. Anyways if you guys have questions don't hesitate to reach out!
Can you apply this method to melee champions which are weaker early in lane? How would you go about maximizing trading windows on assasins which are limited on the early levels e.g. Katarina, Qiyana etc.?
@@yorckenke5248 This is the BEST strategy to go about into them. since you maximize trading windows theyll have to fight for every CS. its even better into melees then into ranged characters. Ofcourse theres some melees that may stat check you hard for example into yasuo you might get destroyed anyway
@@small_dud3 If im specifically playing for a bounce back and try to freeze it on my side a 3 wave stack is slightly better sicne we dont want a bounceback after wave 2 on a cannon since its hard for us to thin and hold. + we might lose the level 3 level up timer and get zoned
@@CoachMysterias That's what lacked in the video imo. But that's not the only case. For example, if you want to put a deep ward in enemy jungle, crashing 3rd wave gives you much more time. If you crash the 2nd one, you most likely won't have enough time - before you come back to lane, you will have already lost control over the wave (unless you have an insanely good matchup, obviously) or even missed some gold/xp. The video was meant to be short and just highlight the general issue (which is great! people do this mistake so often and it is a HUGE one), not getting deep into it, I guess, but it still could have been mentioned that "this is just a simplified thought process, we might get into more specific scenarios in another videos".
I'm an Emeral ADC and I FREQUENTLY feel the way Curtis described "I'm perma choving, but it feels unconfortable". I'm now excited to try this way of managing waves
It is kinda weird to figure out if we're managing the lane the proper way(sometimes), right? But, at least, you're aware of what you are doing, you're doing stuff consciously, far better than most players already
This 2-wave stacking method is insane in easier matchups. Like I tried this against a Vex and stomped really hard in the early levels. The extra space afforded by the 2 wave stack was HUGE for poking her down, which allowed my jungler to come over twice for easy ganks. We snowballed really easily from there. BUT This technique only works if you are extremely aware of enemy cooldowns, have good movement, and consistently land all your poke. In the early levels, if I ate any Q's and E's from here, then this Vex would be the one snowballing. So in the video you showcased the Hwei vs Leblanc matchup. I'm a plat hwei onetrick who played this exact matchup yesterday. Unfortunately the leblanc in this video doesn't seem to understand spacing or Hwei's cooldowns because she ate every single Q and didn't know how to trade back. In a real game you will potentially face Leblanc's who rush tier 2 boots and have good spacing. A good leblanc will not lose half her hp from your Q poke, and if you take a bad trade then uhh, you're the one down half HP with zero control over the wave, giving her the tempo advantage she needs to roam bot and get a double kill. Worse, the enemy could have an AD jungle, in my case Leblanc+Hecarim is extremely strong gank setup. Can't even rely on warding & leaning which ruins any chance for me to posture aggressively. If hecarim is anywhere near mid with ghost up, I am a free kill.
@@exyl_sounds I am glad I wasnt the only one who noticed this thing in Curtis`s video. Does the "2-wave stack" from this video sound almost identical as "Taking turns" or "Tempo" to you too?
It makes so much sense, I've had this problem for such a long time. Makes me wonder how I didn't think of it myself, it's such a simple concept "wait for the second wave so your minions deal more dmg and you can shove the wave faster" but for some reason the thought never crossed my mind. Thanks for the video, this will be a great tool for me to use
that's pretty much what I need to do with TF to survive the laning phase . I sometimes even intentionally trade cs for damage , and chunk the enemy just to put my wave in this state. it's definitely a good strategy
@Coach Curtis 3rd wave crash is the sauce in toplane tho. Even 4th wave crash CAN be possible but its very hard to pull off. Is there any place for this in mid? Or is the lane just too short? Top main here 😅
Hey Curtis, excellent video, just had a couple questions: 1) Would you do this 2 wave crash as a melee vs range or melee vs melee match up (like if you were playing as Diana or Sylas) 2) Is there any use in 3 wave crashes like you do in side lanes?
An even more efficient way for worse players to pick this up is watch BLG knight play and see the way he slow pushes in mage match ups , especially on ahri. It's ever so different to how chovy does it and probably easier to learn for a newer player because he does it more in a pattern than chovy
Is this only, or more so, viable on ranged champs rather than melee champs? Since melee champs might prefer a long lane if you let the enemy push it out a bit?
When is it better to, instead of immidiatly pushing when the wave is neutral, let the wave push towards you so you can freeze until you eventually start slowpush from there? What are to pros and cons of these 2 options/under which conditions should you do them?
Seems quite useful, but this only applies if you have the winning matchup and can guarantee the push right? So it won't work if say I'm playing Vlad and I'm facing a syndra or hwei who can outrade and outpush me early? What should i do wave management-wise in that case? I'm guessing try to freeze the wave near my tower and farm but how do I accomplish that?
Hello, I'm wondering what to build against tanks with armor when i play qiyana (AD Assassin). Do i go for seryldas quickly for the armor pen or do i go for something like BT for the sustain and high AD? Im a Qiyana mid main and i need help against these sions mid, etc..
What if i'm in a bad match up and i can't make the 2 wave cycle or when a mage x mage match up me opponent is trimming the wave because de match is more favorable to him, what can i do in this situations?
apart from the fact that its midlane and the lane is way shorter than sidelanes so its much harder to do so - is it also useful to do a 3wave crash? is it even possible/applicable? i feel like its being utilized in bot/top so much and wonder if its also valid in mid?
Only if you're forced to, you either fked up or you can be ganked lvl3, bcs after 2 waves your lane opponent will hit lvl3 earlier and could reset first
Chovy slow pushing that is good because it makes sure he wins trades and secures he gets push for the next waves so he can move. If the enemy jungler wasn't Skarner or Chovy dodged or flashed the Syndra Q+E then it would be extremely good because Skarner would waste his time and ruin his tempo for that play while Hwei would still have priority for crab or any play Vi does. For the Azir example: Azir is very weak pre lvl 7 in terms of trading power and push power compared to Hwei because Azir needs points in W and components to start playing. You win any trade and if anything happens you can instantly push the wave as Hwei. So your wave management kinda doesn't matter because you have full control. For the Leblanc example: It's a really bad example because a LeBlanc should never lose trades 1v1 to a Hwei this early if he hasn't bought nullmagic-mantle/mercs.
In the first clip, the Hwei should have held his QE on the first wave and instead QQ'd at the Syndra while autoing the wave in order to secure a small minion advantage. Then, with the minion advantage and the stacked wave closer to the middle, he could safely QE the next wave to crash it without having to risk burning flash or dying to the gank. For the second point, the wave control does matter when you have "full control" of the lane as a stronger champion, because if you crash two waves instead of one you've extended your harass window. Even if you're the stronger champion, trying to hard shove a single wave often results in the wave not actually crashing and freezing instead. Further, if the single wave does manage to crash, the window that you have bought yourself where you don't have to last hit and the enemy does is shorter because less minions are under the tower.
You should always shove waves. Getting ganked is a consequence of being better than your opponent. Riot is punishing players who are mechanically better than others, that's why shutdown gold exists.
Amazing video and concept to share! One thing i would like to highlight is that a 2 wave cycle is the best strategy to get the most amount of trading windows onto the enemy champion by pressuring them off their last hits or rather trading with them if they decide to last hit. This can be taken to the next level by being very intentional with every auto attack on the wave and desyncing the minion hp from your and enemies minions so you can put your full mental stack on trading without losing creeps. Chovy is the absolute master of this i really recommend studying every single of his auto attacks. Anyways if you guys have questions don't hesitate to reach out!
question for either of you coaches but when would you do a 3 wave crash over a 2 wave cycle?
Can you apply this method to melee champions which are weaker early in lane? How would you go about maximizing trading windows on assasins which are limited on the early levels e.g. Katarina, Qiyana etc.?
@@yorckenke5248 This is the BEST strategy to go about into them. since you maximize trading windows theyll have to fight for every CS. its even better into melees then into ranged characters. Ofcourse theres some melees that may stat check you hard for example into yasuo you might get destroyed anyway
@@small_dud3 If im specifically playing for a bounce back and try to freeze it on my side a 3 wave stack is slightly better sicne we dont want a bounceback after wave 2 on a cannon since its hard for us to thin and hold. + we might lose the level 3 level up timer and get zoned
@@CoachMysterias That's what lacked in the video imo. But that's not the only case. For example, if you want to put a deep ward in enemy jungle, crashing 3rd wave gives you much more time. If you crash the 2nd one, you most likely won't have enough time - before you come back to lane, you will have already lost control over the wave (unless you have an insanely good matchup, obviously) or even missed some gold/xp.
The video was meant to be short and just highlight the general issue (which is great! people do this mistake so often and it is a HUGE one), not getting deep into it, I guess, but it still could have been mentioned that "this is just a simplified thought process, we might get into more specific scenarios in another videos".
I'm an Emeral ADC and I FREQUENTLY feel the way Curtis described "I'm perma choving, but it feels unconfortable". I'm now excited to try this way of managing waves
It is kinda weird to figure out if we're managing the lane the proper way(sometimes), right?
But, at least, you're aware of what you are doing, you're doing stuff consciously, far better than most players already
This 2-wave stacking method is insane in easier matchups. Like I tried this against a Vex and stomped really hard in the early levels. The extra space afforded by the 2 wave stack was HUGE for poking her down, which allowed my jungler to come over twice for easy ganks. We snowballed really easily from there.
BUT
This technique only works if you are extremely aware of enemy cooldowns, have good movement, and consistently land all your poke. In the early levels, if I ate any Q's and E's from here, then this Vex would be the one snowballing.
So in the video you showcased the Hwei vs Leblanc matchup. I'm a plat hwei onetrick who played this exact matchup yesterday. Unfortunately the leblanc in this video doesn't seem to understand spacing or Hwei's cooldowns because she ate every single Q and didn't know how to trade back. In a real game you will potentially face Leblanc's who rush tier 2 boots and have good spacing. A good leblanc will not lose half her hp from your Q poke, and if you take a bad trade then uhh, you're the one down half HP with zero control over the wave, giving her the tempo advantage she needs to roam bot and get a double kill. Worse, the enemy could have an AD jungle, in my case Leblanc+Hecarim is extremely strong gank setup. Can't even rely on warding & leaning which ruins any chance for me to posture aggressively. If hecarim is anywhere near mid with ghost up, I am a free kill.
Exyl commenting on a coach curtis video?? I didn't see this one coming
@@Vortex_Tornado Lmao
@@exyl_sounds
I am glad I wasnt the only one who noticed this thing in Curtis`s video.
Does the "2-wave stack" from this video sound almost identical as "Taking turns" or "Tempo" to you too?
It makes so much sense, I've had this problem for such a long time. Makes me wonder how I didn't think of it myself, it's such a simple concept "wait for the second wave so your minions deal more dmg and you can shove the wave faster" but for some reason the thought never crossed my mind. Thanks for the video, this will be a great tool for me to use
Welcome BBCers… ah wait
This type of video is so good and people don't realize good it is
2 wave cycle, basically finally bringing down the standard toplane/botlane concept now optimized into midlane. I love it !
that's pretty much what I need to do with TF to survive the laning phase .
I sometimes even intentionally trade cs for damage , and chunk the enemy just to put my wave in this state.
it's definitely a good strategy
Nice lesson, I like this style better, much more practical like skillcapped stuff
Keep up the great work Curty ❤
@Coach Curtis 3rd wave crash is the sauce in toplane tho. Even 4th wave crash CAN be possible but its very hard to pull off. Is there any place for this in mid? Or is the lane just too short? Top main here 😅
Been playing league for a long time. You are 100% right.
Is it viable to do a 3rd wave crash as a ranged with early poke into melee to deny the level 3 window that a lot of melee mids have?
Hey Curtis, excellent video, just had a couple questions:
1) Would you do this 2 wave crash as a melee vs range or melee vs melee match up (like if you were playing as Diana or Sylas)
2) Is there any use in 3 wave crashes like you do in side lanes?
An even more efficient way for worse players to pick this up is watch BLG knight play and see the way he slow pushes in mage match ups , especially on ahri. It's ever so different to how chovy does it and probably easier to learn for a newer player because he does it more in a pattern than chovy
This! Exactly this!!
Took me so much time to identify!
fire thumbnail
Has anyone noticed that hwei actually didn't kill last minion twice in a row, and he let syndra auto him so the wave changed agro and didn't crash?
Are you gonna do a hwei guide?
Is this only, or more so, viable on ranged champs rather than melee champs? Since melee champs might prefer a long lane if you let the enemy push it out a bit?
When is it better to, instead of immidiatly pushing when the wave is neutral, let the wave push towards you so you can freeze until you eventually start slowpush from there?
What are to pros and cons of these 2 options/under which conditions should you do them?
coach curtis coach Curtis coach Curtis coach cur
great video thanks!
Very nice video. But lets do a perspective change. What to do against this tactic?
how would you adapt this for melee mids?
Seems quite useful, but this only applies if you have the winning matchup and can guarantee the push right? So it won't work if say I'm playing Vlad and I'm facing a syndra or hwei who can outrade and outpush me early? What should i do wave management-wise in that case? I'm guessing try to freeze the wave near my tower and farm but how do I accomplish that?
Hello, I'm wondering what to build against tanks with armor when i play qiyana (AD Assassin). Do i go for seryldas quickly for the armor pen or do i go for something like BT for the sustain and high AD? Im a Qiyana mid main and i need help against these sions mid, etc..
I need this video for bot lane
I thought 3 wave crashes were the thing to do, I never thought of doing it 2, I will try it... also can you do this with melee champions?
Would you still do this once champions hit waveclear breakpoints?
why not 3 wave or 4 wave cycles curious
great one really powerfull strategy
Good knowledge here
What if i'm in a bad match up and i can't make the 2 wave cycle or when a mage x mage match up me opponent is trimming the wave because de match is more favorable to him, what can i do in this situations?
THIS IS THE SAUCE
apart from the fact that its midlane and the lane is way shorter than sidelanes so its much harder to do so - is it also useful to do a 3wave crash? is it even possible/applicable? i feel like its being utilized in bot/top so much and wonder if its also valid in mid?
how you can draw on a video ?!
When doing this in the first waves what makes you go for a 2 wave instead of a three wave crash?
Only if you're forced to, you either fked up or you can be ganked lvl3, bcs after 2 waves your lane opponent will hit lvl3 earlier and could reset first
Curtis is kinda mogging Chovy
If this is emeralnd wave controll Im challenger
If you ever want content for a video I’ll volunteer. 5+ year old account lvl 132, naturally leveled iron 4.
mfw wave management (they just oneshot the wave with whatever AoE they have WPGG)
Chovy slow pushing that is good because it makes sure he wins trades and secures he gets push for the next waves so he can move. If the enemy jungler wasn't Skarner or Chovy dodged or flashed the Syndra Q+E then it would be extremely good because Skarner would waste his time and ruin his tempo for that play while Hwei would still have priority for crab or any play Vi does.
For the Azir example: Azir is very weak pre lvl 7 in terms of trading power and push power compared to Hwei because Azir needs points in W and components to start playing. You win any trade and if anything happens you can instantly push the wave as Hwei. So your wave management kinda doesn't matter because you have full control.
For the Leblanc example: It's a really bad example because a LeBlanc should never lose trades 1v1 to a Hwei this early if he hasn't bought nullmagic-mantle/mercs.
In the first clip, the Hwei should have held his QE on the first wave and instead QQ'd at the Syndra while autoing the wave in order to secure a small minion advantage. Then, with the minion advantage and the stacked wave closer to the middle, he could safely QE the next wave to crash it without having to risk burning flash or dying to the gank.
For the second point, the wave control does matter when you have "full control" of the lane as a stronger champion, because if you crash two waves instead of one you've extended your harass window. Even if you're the stronger champion, trying to hard shove a single wave often results in the wave not actually crashing and freezing instead. Further, if the single wave does manage to crash, the window that you have bought yourself where you don't have to last hit and the enemy does is shorter because less minions are under the tower.
You should always shove waves. Getting ganked is a consequence of being better than your opponent. Riot is punishing players who are mechanically better than others, that's why shutdown gold exists.
low iq take, getting ganked just means you are absorbing pressure for your teammates