Despite her lack of experience in acting, Lili did absolutely amazing work! She is a better actress than many experienced ones. Kate was brilliantly portrayed by her from the very beginning. I loved her character as well as the other main characters on the show. Lost was my obsession!
@@bbt305haha I’m the same, on my 17th watch and showing my new girlfriend it for the first time, we just watched the other 48 days haha. Wa unfortunate one relationship only lasted until “special” 😂 something THAT relationship was not
As soon as i see that you posted a new video, I immediately click and like, no need to watch it first to know it is going to be great ! 28:59 later: I can only confirm, thanks again for everything you do with this show. Glad you are planning to do a montage of Sawyer's nicknames, they always bring just a little bittersweet and very much loved pinch of... Sawyerness...
I actually love that episode's final montage, I thought it was perfect for what we could call the first episode: the music, the lyrics, the montage... love it!
It's probably the only pop song montage sequence from the series that works for me, particularly the moment where Sayid throws fruit to Sawyer as a peace offering. It's a cheesy sequence of its time, but dramatically justified. Not sure about some of the other song montages in Season One though!
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 obviously you’ll probably get to that scene when you cover that episode, but you dont fancy the music montage at the end of episode 6 I believe when Kate decided to stay at the beach instead of going to the caves?
@@edvincovic1801 I don't hate it but I just think ending episodes with these musical montages of the group either brooding or bonding (even with good songs) feel a bit dated to me, especially seeing as LOST goes on to become a show with truly amazing endings and cliffhangers. I think they make for generally corny outros.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108Yeah I get you man. I disagree though, and it might be my artsy side shining through but I really like these outros in moderation, and I think LOST does them well. I like the stripped down nature of them and they tend to be very artistic (like good shots, satisfying choice of music and overall mood) and I also sort of like how they invite you to reflect with the characters. I’ll be tuning in to the next video man! Take care
i’ve been a fan since season 5 aired but only in the last couple years found the fandom and was genuinely so surprised by the amount of hate she got! she’s not my favourite character but the hate ppl have for her is so unfounded and so rooted in misogyny whether they realise or not 🥲 she’s such an interesting character and Lilly plays her so well, thank you for the deep dive !!
I never knew why Kate wanted to leave the island. I assume another reason to run and leave, like she does. I know if I was in her situation, I'd want to stay
I love this series so much -both LOST and your episode guide😊Kate is also one of my favourite characters so I really appreciate your in depth character analysis of her. I love Walkabout, but the episode that really got me hooked was White Rabbit. Thanks so much for your efforts❤
I appreciate your attempt to redeem Kate, but Im on the Kate hate bandwagon. I have also worked to understand her, but her inability to empathize and put herself in other shoes while acting like her actions are wholly right is her undoing. Her only redeeming quality is her desire to help, but her inability to understand the consequences of her thoughts and actions always causes her to be nothing but a problem for everyone else. She judges harshly but refuses to be judged herself. Kate never redeems herself. If she had just one episode where she realized and admitted she was wrong about killing her "step father" and learned from that, I might have finally seen her as redeemable, but she is borderline sociopathic. I love your videos and hope you choose to keep making more. Thanks for all the hard work you put into your content!
A few thoughts: -That first clip is a hilarious way to start the discussion of the Kate Hate. -"Hate for Kate is overStated." This is the kind of subtle wordsmithery that elevates this channel. Also the top tier media analysis, but the rhyming goes a long way.
I never thought much about Sawyer missing the heart. To me it was just someone who, like a lot of people, had the wrong idea of where the heart is. The heart is closer to the center of the chest than most people think. But Sawyer didn't know that so he shot the Marshal's left lung instead.
Can’t wait for you to tie up the Kate hate rebuttal with “I saved you a bullet.” Never thought about it with quite this nuance, but after hearing what you said, this is a perfect end to Kate’s arc, considering that she steps up and takes care of the problem instead of running away or manipulating someone else to be her proxy. She knows that there *is* no one else at that point, and fully embraces “live together, die alone”. In the end, she is with Jack to solve the Locke problem. Forget “strong female character”, that’s just strong character development.
I will concede that I have a blind spot when it comes to whatever Character terry o Quinn is playing. So from ny obviously right (tongue in cheek) point of view Kate was nasty to john and pushed him over the edge to kill himself -checkmark in Kate sux category, and Kate "i saved a bullet for you" she then killed the MIB who was the true heir ti the island (I'm special) and the righteous original "good guy" as he slayed the original evil (mother) and just wanted to go home. Jacob took up the cause of mother so since Jacob took up the cause of evil he is evil (he kidnaps people and sentences them to certain death on an island) and anyone who supports team Jacob is a trash POS bad guy. Much love for the discourse
Omg you're seriously doing a hard work in these videos, thank god I found your Chanel at the right time, if you didn't show up I would have gone crazy ! This show is very complicated ! Thanks to your efforts I do understand what's going on now ❤ . . . . Don't stop keep going we need you here bro 😁
You really should also make a supercut of every time they say "Lost" on the show while you're at it. I was devastated when I found out there wasn't one on YoutTube already.
LOST is such a great, layered, character driven show. Thanks for your work. I never was a Kate-hater. On later rewatches, I find her background less exciting than others, but she is a strong and important character in the show. Yes, the writers didn’t use her full potential, but Evangeline Lilly did an incredible job of fleshing out Kate’s character.
I was never a huge Kate fan but with every rewatch i learn to love her more and more! This video also makes me understand her more and appreciate her more! Thank you for that! Can’t wait for a Juliet episode! She is my favorite
Another fine example of why I love this show, and this channel. See ya in another life brotha... I never really understood all the Kate hate. I liked her. I do prefer her when she's not bouncing between Jake and Sawyer though.
Absolutely, I’ve got Walkabout coming soon (hopefully end of this week). It’s already live on my Patreon and would have dropped on YT last weekend but I’ve got to wait for those pesky copyright strikes to lift first.
Question for you. My 12 year old son is watching the show for the first time and is just starting season 6, do you think it’ll be easier to follow for him if I tell him what the secondary story is or let him wait and find out? Just curious
I would let him watch it through for the first time without any spoilers or explanations. Let him experience it purely so he can get the full impact of the surprises. After it ends, if he has questions or confusions then you can start discussing the details with him. The show opens up lots of thought avenues, no matter what the age. I think he will have questions but within those questions lie the most rewarding conversations that you can have between the two of you. That would be my advice :-)
I always found it curious that the series goes from flash backs in the early seasons, over flash forwards in season 4 to flash sideways in season 6. They really got all their flashes covered.
Imagine a plot line of Jack saving the Marshall but he has amnesia. The tension from Kate and the viewers knowing but he has no idea during interactions (is he remembering flashes or is he oblivious). Maybe it would stunt the growth of Kate’s character from the path they wanted to use. Probably an over played plot line and glad it’s not there. But….. …some things the Marshall would say sarcastically could be funny to us (alarming to Kates flight response) or building on the idea of a second chance on the island (where her flight response to him would go away) only to have the reality off the island and accountability of her previous actions would hit her character harder (Oceanic 7? Sawyer jumping would still make sense due to weight). We could be shown that the Marshall is testifying, but as the Marshall or on her behalf as his Island self- tension for us and Kate not knowing. It could of worked while looking cheap in the beginning He might of even sided with Jack; being at his core, more pragmatic and seeing things as purely black and white. But the shock of him going from a hard-nose Marshall to being all about destiny on the island is a thought. Flashbacks of him chasing Kate would have weight for both characters Maybe this is too much of a thought tho. Interested to hear constructive thoughts - not trying to provoke hateful lil quibs
Good video - showing Kate was a powerful and strong but flawed character that became a key part of LOST as Lilly grew into the character and made it her own. The few people I knew who hated Kate were women. Maybe some of them saw Kate in themselves? I see parts of myself in Hugo, Locke and Jack. I had no idea that originally Jack was to be killed off and essentially replaced by Kate. Glad the showrunners decided to change that.
Initially when crafting the Pilot episode, the idea was to introduce Jack as the lead then kill him off at the end of the episode. They wanted to cast Michael Keaton in the role and build a lot of the promotional material around his star casting, only to then pull the rug out from beneath the audience. Basically, what happens to the Pilot in the cockpit is what would have happened to Keaton’s Jack. Killed by the monster and his pulverised body dropped in a tree! But the network put the kibosh on that idea. Like you, I’m glad that never happened! It would have been a shock but it also would have robbed the show of a character who the series came to be built around. Fascinating part of the show’s early development process though!
It’s not everyone, only some. But they are very vocal. If you’ll scroll through the comments you will see multiple takes from those who have nothing good to say about her. To me, it’s never made sense considering the nature of various characters on the show. Sawyer, Ben, and even the Man in Black, all will receive passionate defences from many of the same fans too. They think Kate was the worst thing to happen to The Island. It’s a really weird social phenomenon within the fanbase. I don’t agree with their criticisms. If they hold Kate to a higher standard than the aforementioned male characters then I find that to be a rather *double* standard. If Sawyer gets a pass, Kate should get a pass. They are similar characters. The major difference is that Kate is a woman and the linchpin of a divisive love triangle.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Ah, I see. "Some". My bad. I always found her character intriguing. I always found all the characters intriguing actually. I fell in love with the show for its characters. I recall, when I was younger (when the show first came out and I was watching each episode as it was released), I remember losing interest around season 3 and then stopped watching at season 4/5.... It was back in 2023 that I decided to rewatch it again and found that the seasons beyond season 3 were really great. I LOVE the whole show of lost. That is when I discovered your channel, after I watched the entire series through. I remember, when I was younger, thinking the later seasons were very silly. Now, I find that they are very moving and... Fantastic.... It is a very great show and I feel that the ending is so very good. Thank you for making videos on Lost. :) They are very interesting and they make me enjoy the show even more.
Yes, it’s interesting. I only really started to come across “Kate hate” in the postscript of the series. You are far more likely to encounter it now on Reddit and Facebook (and in a few comments under this very video!). But by no means do I think it is a majority held opinion.
the problem with kate is that her backstory is simple and overdone. just one or two would have sufficed, instead we got half a dozen all saying the same thing. in contrast island mystery is sketch and brief and rarely repeated. when i rewatch, keep the remote handy to skip kate, rewatch island mystery.
Kate is THE WORST. she is completely selfish and motivated strictly by her own selfish motivations. She is a liar, a cheater, a murderer and kidnapper, who couldn't follow orders and always messed things up. John (the most selfless character on the show) asks her to help her friends and asks if she even cares and she laughs in his face and insults him...only to do what he wanted her to do after she basically bullied John into suicide. Her absolute selfishness is what sets her apart from every other character on the show. F Kate, you don't get to do 1 good thing and think that makes up for her being trash for 5 1/2 seasons. Kate is the worst edit... as always your videos are the best and you are the LOST authority, and I am remiss if I didn't say thank you
I hear ya, but we can take those exact same criticisms you have made of Kate and apply them to someone like Sawyer. He is also a liar and a murderer (who killed an innocent man in cold blood); he is always frustrating the plans of the group because of his own twisted hangups and schemes; he hoards supplies, he bullies and belittles, he is bigoted, he is cruel to animals, he even gets several of our main characters killed in the final season when he messes with the bomb. Now, there are reasonable explanations for all of the behaviours and flaws in both characters, but I find it fascinating how Kate is held to a higher standard than Sawyer is, even though he is by far and away the more problematic personality between them, especially in the first couple of seasons. Both characters have flaws and do questionable things in their own self-interest, and both eventually overcome those flaws in the final half of the series. I honestly think a lot of this comes down to likeability factor. Sawyer, even when he's being absolutely horrid, is simply more charming, and audiences love a bad boy. He gets to be the rogue. Whereas Kate becomes the lynchpin of a love triangle and languishes for a couple of seasons as the object of affections, and that makes her less likeable because of the flip-flopping between men. However, I maintain that Kate did no worse than Sawyer on or off the island and that they should at least be judged equally. Also, if the fanbase can embrace a selfish sociopathic personality like Ben (who genuinely puts everyone in harms way for his own ends quite frequently) then they can give poor old Kate a break lol! She's in no way *that* bad, at least not from where I am sitting. p.s. thank you for the kind words added at the end there! I hope to strike up some more of these debates going forward as I think they are really fun and illuminating. I'm going to wade into the love/hate debates around several other major characters very soon too, including Locke, Jack and Charlie. All of them have vocal fans and vocal detractors. It's gonna get wild!
@LOSTEXPLAINED108 no problem, it's not hard to say kind words when they are true. And I am not saying sawyer or any other lostie isn't a terrible person... they all are. It's just that Kate is the worst becuase of selfishness. Every other character had self motivation but not the sole motivation and that's where her problem stems from. The only 2 characters in my opinion who had the right priority (the island, as it is the source of all) john, who we know what Kate did to him, and Ben, who foe all his thirst for power always knew the island was priority #1(see alex) the rest of them were tr a sh people but I enjoyed there journey and story none the less. Thanks for the dialog, and massive respect for your dedication and overall awesomeness
Never in my wildest dreams would I ever have imagined reading people who disagree on RUclips comments be so respectful 😂 faith in humanity restored a little bit. Keep up the good videos!
@GenshinIntervention normally is am overwhelmed with hate for this exact take, but this guys channel is like the mecca of LOST and I would never dare disrespect him (if possible)
@msto1987 it's kinda crazy cuz I totally see both of your points so like to me even, both of yall are kinda right 😆 For me, in the same line of reasoning yall already based your opinions on, I'd have to say I have a particular distaste for Jack's character and motivations up until maybe the last season
Rewatching Lost (fav show ever cause of the cast and their great acting) for like the 20th time, but first time with my boyfriend who has only seen season 1. We are on season 4 episode 5! Started like two weeks ago lol ❤😊and …. I LOVE KATE!
Hey man, loving these videos! Question, did you use an AI voice for some of your earlier videos? I'm rewatching them all and noticed a massive different in voice
Yes, that's correct. I didn’t have recording equipment back when the older videos were made so I used a text-to-speech voice. But as the channel grew, so too did the calls for me to get a mic and use my real voice. So, I did just that and remade all of the old videos using my own voice and better quality footage from the show, adding more detail and information as well. The Theory of Everything six-part series contains everything that was touched upon in those earlier, shorter videos.
Doesn't help that the showrunners were openly sexist. When asked which three people he would want to spend time on the island with? I recall he told a fan he would choose Kate because he wanted some eye candy. And now all the revelations that came out in the new book about misogyny and racism and so on the production of the show... It's definitely disappointing
It amazes me how this show progressed from being stranded on a mysterious island to the spiral stories that stitched together by the final episode. At first I found myself disliking Kate but it had more to do with her romantic flip flop (Skate or Jate?). After rethinking it, my dislike has more to do with who Kate became when she was with either guy. I liked Kate when her stories weren't about the guys in her life on or off the island. Those were her better moments imo.
I agree - Kate was always at her most compelling when she was dealing with her own baggage and storylines. I think the writers recognised this (eventually) and made Kate’s main mission in the final two seasons about going back for Claire. Kate’s whole arc was about getting her to stop running away and to stand and face her past actions and mistakes, but she didn’t really get to start doing that until the latter half of the series. I agree she was kept in stasis with the love triangle, but so were many other aspects of the general storytelling during that period.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 so glad the writers eventually realized how to develop Kate as her own character. I agree that other aspects at the start were also in stasis. I think Kate not being set in a specific place was another part of why I initially didn't like her. When I understood that was part of her character I liked her character more. I tend to have trouble seeing the bigger picture but once I got a grasp on it I think it helped me understand better (even the show). Makes for a better viewing experience imo.
I don't think it's an overwhelming majority, just a significant, vocal contingent of the fanbase in places like Reddit and Facebook. I think a majority of audiences don't even judge characters in stories all that harshly, they tend to go with the flow. As long as characters don't act "out of character" for the sake of moving the plot along, people don't tend to take issue. Usually, if there is a wide dislike of a character it comes down to either the nature of their role within the story (villains get a lot of hate from the public, like the poor guy who played Joffrey on Game of Thrones) or it is about a general dislike of the actor playing the character. Out of the millions of people who watched LOST, I honestly don't think Kate was hated by majority numbers.
Another excellent video. It’s no reflection on your work, but I still don’t understand the Kate hate. She’s a flawed, complex character who grows over time and redeems herself. She’s gutsy and heroic, as well as very easy on the eyes. She kills the Man in Black! Also, as murders go, her father had it coming. People, save your ire for Nikki and Paulo!
Evangeline Lily best described Kate in an interview where she answers Google questions, "What did Evangeline Lily do on Lost?" And the first thing she said was "Well, I crashed on an island. I flirted with two boys..."
I recently played through the lost video game "via domus" and it had a lot of interesting things considered canon as well as a confusing plot that lines up with events on the show. I haven't seen many people talk about it in a real way. Would you consider making content on the lost game?
I've never actually played Via Domus before as I'm not much of a gamer. However, I am aware of the general story and I have used the still of "the incident room" from the game several times throughout my videos. It is a really cool depiction of what the button was discharging on the other side of that barrier.
Hey, I’ve watched most of your videos and haven’t really seen this spoken about but maybe I’ve missed it. I was just wondering, do you know how they decided who would survive the island? So Kate, Sawyer etc. It’s always seemed really odd to me that they got to survive, but Jin and Sun didn’t
They always knew that Jack would survive until the last scene and the show would end with his death. I think they also always planned for Locke to eventually meet his demise and that to be the turning point in the show. But as for other characters who died and those who survived to the end, it was mostly down to what the writers felt worked best for the story/audience at the time. If we were to break down the logic behind those final choices... Jin and Sun's deaths were designed to help contextualise just how dangerous the Man in Black was to the group and to give us extra reason to hate him as the arch villain. We needed a tragic set of main characters deaths to help do that. I think Kate couldn't die because Jack's final fate was never in doubt, so the woman he loved had to live on so he could have a victory/comfort in his final moments. Whereas Sawyer and Hurley were both too wildly popular to kill off -- I think they knew that killing off the fan favourites would have left a bitter aftertaste. However, we could tinker with the show in our heads to come up with an alternative set of survivors. Example: Sawyer dies in the finale in a moment that redeems his actions on the submarine, while Jin survives the sub to go back to raise Ji Yeon.
You should make a video on the theory that Kate was pregnant by Jack on the second flight to the island and that David (in the flash sideways/ purgatory) is actually Jack and Kate's son and not a construct of Jack's mind to work through his daddy issues. The second time they flew out to the island, Eloise said that they should recreate events of the first flight on Oceanic ... And indeed most of them were recreated, like there was a coffin on the plane, a prisoner, someone with a guitar, a married woman, and what's left? A pregnant woman! And that's Kate.... I read this theory a lot and someone very smartly pointed out the recreation of events... And apparently Kate's pregnancy and David being her and Jack's son was confirmed by an executive product on Twitter and by Eva. Lilly herself on Instagram? Would love to hear your take on this... I need to know if there is any trurh to this so I can rest lol Thanks
I never realized Kate was so hated. I’ve been obsessed with Lost for so long, but I never spent time on the forums or really even discussing with other people because I felt like I was always trying to convince people that my favorite show was, in fact, good… and that’s annoying. I’ve always loved Kate and identified with her most of all the original characters. I love a complicated female character who is smart, strong, and self sufficient.
She is vocally hated by a portion of the fanbase but by no means is that hatred as widespread as it seems. It comes from Reddit and Facebook threads about her, which themselves stem from old forum discussions many moons ago. I think she splits opinion - some of whom absolutely love her and those who intensely dislike her. What I don’t like is the vitriolic nature of the criticism. It gets very ugly sometimes. I personally have never understood people who get that enraged by fictional characters. I’ve always liked Kate - she’s a great wild card character - although the writing for her in Seasons Two and Three trapped her in that love triangle stasis. I think she came into her own more in the second half of the series once she got storylines that went beyond the dynamics with Jack and Sawyer.
I only started watching this because of the weird C4 advert with the opera theme I was like what is that?! after two episodes though the only reason I kept watching was because Evangeline Lilly was in it😉 she was lovely and so cool at the same time, then the mystery deepened and they clearly were making one of the cleverest TV programmes of all time so I had to watch it all like 10 times tbf maybe 15 once Desmond and time travel were introduced
Grazie, sempre grazie per le condivisioni! Personalmente penso che Kate sull'isola è la persona che più ha convertito la sua vita precedente. Semplicemente ha smesso di scappare ed ha cominciato ad essere. Come donna è stata la contraddizione e la divisione contraddittoria sentimentale, carnale e passionale e...ma se fosse stata uomo a farlo forse avrebbero perdonato😂 grazie ed un abbraccio grande e pieno di gratitudine dall'Italia! ❤
Can you address how Sun's baby got a raw deal and theories that might soften that? I like to imagine she ended up friends with Aaron or even adopted by Claire, but how when her evil grandparents have her now 😢
I will eventually get around to discussing all of the raw deals that characters got as a result of The Island's machinations (and some of the writersroom more questionable choices). This episode guide will cover it all, including all of the Jin and Sun storylines.
When I watched the show the first time when it aired originally 20 years ago I liked all of the survivors characters more or less, including Kate, except Michael. But while rewatching the show now, 20 years and a lot of my own life experiences later, I do not like her anymore and that from the very start. Kate was a coldhearted, selfish and manipulative bitch and behind Michael I hate her the most. She disguised behind a friendly, nice and helpful facade, but she only cared for herself, never listened, could not take a no, stuck her nose into everything even when being told not to, because she thought herself being so clever which she was not and therefore brought the group in difficulties due to her irrational behavior more often than not. And she never ever showed any remorse and shrugged off lightly every bad action she's ever made and never thought twice about it. What brought me up against her irrevocably was how she used Sun when she was devastated by losing Jin while he prepared to leave the island on Michael's boat. Kate manipulated Sun to poison Jin so he would fall sick and would not be able to leave with the boat and his place on the boat could then be taken by Kate. This was a despicable thing to do and Sun even thanked Kate for giving her that idea, and Kate looked very pleased with herself and never ever regretted it or confessed to Sun, as Charly did after he abducted Sun. But this showed me that Kate only was on the outside seemingly nice and helpful to people because this way she could find out how she could use them or a knowledge about them for her own advantage, and she never showed any remorse, regret or even questioned herself or her actions. Even with the murder of her stepfather she always felt that she did the right thing, and was appalled that the world did not think the same way and kept on getting other people in danger, hurt and killed to get her will. I hate it very much that Jack even fell for her and Kate was always lashing out and overreacting when she did not get her will with Jack, i.e. using Sawyer to sleep with him, although she knew very well that Sawyer loved her. She was toxic and no good for anyone. Sawyer instead did not hide his character and everybody knew what to expect of him, but he showed more insight, self-loath and redeeming qualities than Kate ever did. Behind Sawyer's hard shell one could spot his inner turmoil and self-loath. He made people hate him on purpose because he thought of himself as not being lovable for all that he had done. Kate never questioned her actions and deeds; she thought of herself being in the right. And that is the big difference.
Kate is awesome. I think unfortunately she gets hate for things that both Sawyer and Sayid get a pass for. If she was a man, fans would have called her badass and a great antihero. Kate is resourceful, brave, a little dodgy and broken yet loyal. If she was a dude, fans would be saying she's a complex character, however, she's written off as annoying because we are not used to seeing her type of female characters.
Exactly! If she had been a male character she would have been closer to a Sawyer type - a criminal interested in self-preservation - and we know the fandom embraces him without many reservations, despite some of his extremely ugly behaviour during the first two seasons. He is far more of a problem to the group than Kate ever was. So, I tend to agree with your take on this. It’s certainly an unfair double standard. That’s not to say that Kate’s arc doesn’t get frustrated by all of the love triangle melodrama (I think the writing for her is uneven in Seasons Two and Three) but she gets much better material once she is off the island and decides to go back on her own terms.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 The love triangle didn't bother me much because in my opinion it was handled better than love triangles in other shows. It did not last the entire series. It was explored more in depth in season 2 and 3, and a little in season 4. Kate was indeed confused by her feelings for Sawyer and Jack and the actress portrayed that perfectly. It did not bother me as much as Sayid falling "in love" with Shannon while he claimed he was searching for Nadia, then just going back to Nadia like he never fell in love with Shannon, and I say this because Sayid is my favorite character. Kate is a complex character. I always hated how in season 2 and 3, Jack excluded her from missions. I would have her on my team any day.
To be honest, I quite enjoyed the love triangle too. But I do see the criticism of how Kate’s character became the lynchpin of that triangle for those two seasons, and that became her only major storyline essentially. At least until she got off the island. But then we could make that case for several characters who get trapped in stasis between Season 1-3 because the story had to spin its wheels. I still like Kate and think she is a great character on the show. Never agreed with the hate she got. I too would have her on my team if I were on the island, she’s extremely resourceful and loyal to the Oceanic group.
The thing is sawyer not comitted to anyone kate technically in love with jack and get jealous when jack talk with other women its not cause she women pls get ur point rit....
I didn’t even know there was Kate hate. I felt in her interactions with men off the island she only responded manipulatively because of the obvious predicable effect she had on them, to be immediately desired. I imagine this was tiring, considering it was something she had to endure continually with her stepfather. It’s no wonder she used this to her advantage whenever she could to survive
I was just wondering since I dont remember very well eveything, when Sawyer & Co go back in time and they merge with the Dharma, Sawyer start talking with Richard, but did he ever meet him before that moment? and if not how did he knew who he was? and he start talking about how he's waiting for john locke to came back, how did he knew this?
I believe that is their first scene together but it's worth remembering that Juliet has been with Sawyer's group the whole time (she is in the house with Sawyer when Richard shows up at the barracks). We see her telling the Oceanic survivors about The Others at various points, including specifically mentioning Richard to Locke. So, we can assume Sawyer learned about Richard from her too. Sawyer says to Richard the following: "I also know that 20 years ago, some bald fella limped into your camp and fed you some mumbo jumbo about being your leader. And then poof... he went and disappeared right in front of ya. Any of this ringin' a bell? That man's name is John Locke, and I'm waitin' for him to come back." Sawyer was saying that he himself is waiting for Locke to come back, not that he thinks Richard is waiting for Locke. He only references events that he is aware of having taken place in some form.
ok I'm in the middle of a rewatch and atleast one time Sawyer heard the name of Richard, in S5 ep 03 during Juliet's conversation with the captured Others in Latin she says "Ricardo Alpert"@@LOSTEXPLAINED108
I am going to try my best to keep videos coming each month. In an ideal world, I would like to release one every two weeks, but that would require me to make them full-time and, as of yet, the channel isn't quite justifying a 24/7 commitment. If subs continue to increase and ad revenue goes up a bit more, or I get more patrons, I'll be able to invest extra time into the project and speed up the release schedule.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 No worries. I'll flip the usual rewatch process on its head. I'll wait until your episode drops and then watch the episode after that. That way it will be fresh in my mind.
SPOILERS FOR _LOST_ (OBVIOUSLY), _FORREST GUMP_ AND _INSIDE OUT 2_ I always viewed the hate Kate attitude (at least from what I've seen) from fans as some of them thinking her playing people against each other is a flaw in the writing when it is her character's attitude because she is on the run. The same thing happens with _Forrest Gump_ fans hating on Jenny for her childhood effecting why she doesn't stick around with Forrest. Both characters have have reasons behind their bad behavior, but are still critisized by some without those some understanding why they act that way. You might as well say Riley in the Inside Out 2 movie is evil. It just doesn't work that way.
I still think Jenny was pretty mean to Forrest it’s not like he had it easy either she was obviously traumatised but that doesn’t excuse all bad behaviour Xander Harris often alludes to absent parents his still a jerk to Cordy and Willow and Anya !
@@buckdancer8916 Xander Harris sticks around to yell at his friends and hold their issues against them (not just who you mentioned, but Buffy, Giles, Riley and others, as well). Jenny deals by not being around and, sadly, that is how she needs to get better. Perhaps Forrest could have helped, but he also live too close to where it all happened. And Jenny clearly has trouble with that. Forrest also didn't comprehend exactly what happened. It's not a coincidence that Xander's true turning point of dealing with his issues starts in the comics after Sunnydale is destroyed (the place where his dad was abusive). The same works for Jenny as well. Both characters issues are understandable even if pepople don't always like their actions. And that was the point of my original comment: the difference between intentional character issues and actions vs writing flaws.
I was loving Kate at the beginning but as through the ending jack-kate-sawyer love triangle really gets boring. And since she is the center of this crisis her story becomes boring. She was represented as a woman who can't just decide the man she loves. When she was with sawyer in season 3, jack and juliet started flirting and we saw kate was uncomfortable with it. When they got rescued, we saw kate-jack were engaged, but it didn't work. Still, it was clear that jack loves her so they were in a complicated situation. Then they went back to the island and saw sawyer-juliet have been in love for 3 years and happy. Even her past with jack and sawyer's present with juliet, an awkard atmosphere was created between these two. It seemed like the writers were trying to push kate-sawyer at background. When juliet died and we get to the end, kate told jack she loves him and show ended with kate-jack love in the purgatory. Love her for her work in the island but after a certain time, I couldn't stand that love triangle and kate's uncertainity about her feelings towards jack-sawyer.
I think this is very fair and astute criticism of the character. Her being the lynchpin of the love triangle was a detriment to her arc and development in those first few seasons in particular. I think it was tempered more in those final seasons as she had her own goals and motivations beyond the triangle, like dealing with her own fugitive past, raising Aaron and going back to find Claire.
I was one of those fans and still am. She never redeem herself for me even after 6 seasons. I don't know why exactly but she is so unlikable to me. Even Charlotte got to kind of likable state and that says a lot about how unlikable Kate is in my eyes 😂 P.s. I've been rewatching my other favorite series from the 2000s Fringe and i gotta say it is a masterclass at writing characters and especially a female lead. It is nothing like the modern "strong whamen character" trope. Characters written under that trope don't feel human... Olivia is one of the most human characters on TV ever.
lol, you literally bring up one of the annoying aspects as a supposedly redeeming characteristic: You compare Kate (25 years old) to Locke (52 years old), because they both go against the group. She is even in the trusted inner group despite not being trustworthy. Boone was 25 years old (at least the actor was), and look at the difference in behaviour and privilege of Boone vs Claire, especially in their interaction with Jack. Boone is wise enough to know that people who are 15 years older than him might have more experience
The point was that Locke doesn’t get the same level of hate for the same behaviours, neither does Sawyer. Kate is held to a higher standard in her actions by some fans who will find excuses for the terrible actions of other characters quite often. Boone was not wise lol. He followed Locke to his death because he thought Locke knew what he was doing.
Delirious with fever and annoyed with Kate? I’ll throw my vote with this choice…I never hated Kate, but overall (not all the time) I found the character to be fairly annoying.
Because of misogyny being acceptable on message boards in the 2000s. Also some of the original writers were Buffy alumni, and her characterization was in the Buffy/Faith vein. It was supposed to be revealed that she was Ben and Annie’s daughter.
Kate was my favourite character, she was a brilliant character. I never understood why her crime was made to be this terrible thing, she saved her mom and herself from a violent abuser - i saw this story as a reflection of double standards.
I think whichever way we look at it, Kate still committed murder. Yes, Wayne was a horrible, abusive sleaze. I wasn’t sorry to see him go boom. But she didn’t kill him in a moment of self-defence or in a way that the law might take a sympathetic view on. It was a very carefully planned premeditated act of cold blooded murder. And Kate was treated like any premeditated killer, it didn’t matter what her motives were. So, while I view her crime as understandable in many ways, it was treated as a terrible act by the law for justifiable reasons. Her mother saw it this way too, which is why she called the cops on her own daughter. Kate’s actions were ultimately wrong. As the great philosopher Buffy Summers once said: you can’t beat evil by doing evil.
Kate denied it later but it was clearly hinted that his father did something really wrong to her. And not just violence. That explains her behaviour a lot. Can we expect her to be rational and trusting all the time after that? She was feeling better when when she was a good parent to Aaron. After all I think there was a lot of logic in her charater’s behaviour. She was not feeling good mentally for obvious reasons during first seasons.
I couldn’t and can’t stand Kate. Maybe I’m Jack biased but soon as she hooked up with Sawyer I was done with her. Not to mention how smart she thought she was but wasn’t. I was just watching “the variable” yesterday and she couldn’t even comprehend What Daniel was saying and opposed Jack. F Kate. Sorry not sorry. But I gotta admit as a stand alone character she was a great redemption story. Very complex as you say.
Where do I start…she used her childhood boyfriend to see her mother which led to his death…she had a boyfriend rob a bank to steal a toy plane that she didn’t keep…and she stringed Jack and James a long throughout the show. Then once Jack and her were off the island, she did not tell Jack that James asked her to provide money to his daughter which led Jack not trusting her. The when she went back to an island, she damaged James’ relationship with Juliet. Based on her past with James, she should had given him space because he was in a serious relationship. I didn’t hate her character…but I found her frustrating with how she used men who loved her to get what she wanted.
I think if we were to take a more popular character and break them down in this same way we could highlight all of their terrible decisions and flaws in a similar light. Let’s use Sawyer. He used Cassidy in a long con, got her pregnant, manipulated and betrayed her, then disowned his own child for years (make a great case on Judge Judy!). He killed an innocent man whilst on a revenge kick. Whilst on the island, he sewed disharmony amongst the survivors constantly, including hoarding supplies; being wantonly cruel to people like Jack, Sayid, Hurley, etc; stealing all of the guns when they were in the middle of a life or death war with The Others just so he could gain some power within the group, using Charlie to rough up Sun in the process; he was sometimes cruel to animals; and that’s just all in the first two seasons! I haven’t even mentioned the fact that he is with Juliet for three years then the moment Kate comes back he starts making doughy eyes at her, which Juliet notices and reacts too. Or that Sawyer’s reckless actions on the sub indirectly lead to multiple deaths including Sayid, Jin and Sun. Could do the same negative breakdown with Charlie or Sayid or Locke. When we judge character actions in the harshest, least sympathetic light, they will always cast long and dark shadows. I just find that people tend to hold Kate to a higher standard than they do with other characters who, arguably, do a lot worse and a lot more harm than she ever did. Yet someone like Sawyer remains a fan favourite, regardless of how heinous or annoying some of his behaviour was. I just find that double standard of judgment unfair yet somehow also rather fascinating in terms of audience and fan psychology.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 true…but the title of the video was why people hate Kate. James was a character who changed on the island the longer he stayed. When he had a chance to leave and go back and save his mother, he decided to stay on the island and convinced Juliet to stay with him when she wanted to leave. James was an awful human being before he came to the island because the real Sawyer destroyed his family which had him follow a similar path. Once the island allowed his path to cross with Sawyer and he killed him…he changed. I don’t think James would had killed Sawyer and he just wanted to explain to this man how he destroyed his family, but that man was pure evil and didn’t care that he destroyed Sawyer’s family. Even when James did the same con to woman, once he found out they were parents he walked away from the deal when the husband was going to give him the money. When Juliet died and he briefly started to go on a dark path again with the MIB, that finally broke the spell Kate had over him. Once he knew Juliet was gone, he knew he lost his chance at happiness. I really felt bad for Juliet because she was also happy with James. She saw her parents divorce as a child, her former husband cheated on her and was going to blackmail her for her knowledge with medicine cures, her lover on island was sent on dangerous mission with the passengers of 815 and was killed once they figured out they had a spy living with them. Then Juliet finds happiness with James, but she sees how James looks at Kate which showed he still had feelings for her. And once her and James are on the sub leaving the island 🏝️…then Kate is placed on the sub at the very last minute. I don’t hate Kate…but found her so frustrating at times.
I'm playing devil's advocate here really because I like both Kate and Sawyer as characters, and have no real beef with either. What this video and my comments are trying to convey is that I find the hate that Kate gets incredibly disproportionate to her overall arc and function within the narrative, and I have never really understood the reasoning people often give. My comparison to Sawyer, and the reason for writing out his laundry list of awful past and present deeds (which either equal or outnumber Kate's), was to essentially compare two similar characters and how one gets a lot of hatred while the other not only gets a pass, but is somehow canonized into this weird form of fandom sainthood. When I see the reasons people often give for Kate hate, they almost invariably come down to the same sins that someone like Sawyer has committed. How many lives were ruined because of Sawyer's years of conning people out of their life savings? Sure, he walked away from that last deal with the couple because he saw the kid, but that wasn't his first time. He had that con down to a fine art. He didn't go through with that one because seeing the boy reminded him of his own tragic childhood, and how a con artist destroyed his family. It's at this moment that Sawyer realised he had become the man he was hunting. But that doesn't wash away the pain and suffering he caused past victims. He still goes on to kill Frank Duckett in cold blood. Then his behaviour on the island itself? I mean, he is so incredibly horrid to the other survivors for such a long time. He hoards vital supplies then extorts people to get access to them; he threatens and physically injures other passengers; he racially abuses Sayid; he is cruel to animals as we see with the boar piglet and when he crushes that poor old tree frog in front of Hurley, etc. I could go on. In real life, Sawyer would be considered a toxic human being and shunned by everyday people like us. Yes, his attitude and behaviour improve across the series, especially once he is thrown into a leadership position in Season Five. But it's a very long journey to get there. Kate is, arguably, far more relatable than Sawyer. Sure, she's a criminal, but she wants to help her fellow passengers survive and thrive. She's resourceful and mucks in whenever asked. She is compassionate and cares about the new friends she has made. All these things that Sawyer does not care about for a very long time. Kate's biggest sin to people seems to be her flip-flopping between men which, in the grand scheme of sins committed on that island, is fairly minor lol. Yes, she is self-interested, and stubborn, and duplicitous at different points, but never to the extent that Sawyer is. He literally hoodwinks the entire camp to gain control over the guns in a silly power play that puts everyone's safety at risk in a way that Kate's actions never did. Kate also goes through changes in the last few seasons too. She learns to care for someone else other than herself (Aaron), she stops running away from her responsibilities (goes back to the island), she becomes a more moral, responsible person (protecting children, trying to prevent more violence, being the voice of reason), etc. Kate might not have the dramatic change in arc that Sawyer has, but she had a lot less changes to make in the first place. Because, unlike Sawyer, she wasn't nearly as damaged. Basically, the whole point of my comparison here is not to take anything away from either character, but to simply say: if we are going to judge Kate by all of her faults and flaws, we have to judge Sawyer by the same measurements. I can't selectively apply judgements to one character simply because they didn't have as fully realised of an arc. Perhaps that is what it comes down to: Sawyer's arc was better than Kate's. He's also more charming, even when he is being bad. People love a bad boy! And I honestly believe that it's no small thing that Kate is a woman, and women get judged more harshly in these kinds of stories. I found both characters frustrating at different points for different reasons, but I don't think I judged Kate more harshly for her mistakes than I did Sawyer. To me, they were shadow selves of one another; very similar personalities, which is why they were a good romantic pairing for a while. However, when you are too much like someone, it can burn bright and fast then fizzle out. Anyway, sorry for the essay lol. I appreciate your frustrations with Kate. She has a rough time of it for a couple of seasons, but I think the character recovers in the second half of the series when the focus moves away from all of the love triangle stuff.
she fucks around 2 of the most beloved characters in the show, she never listens to anyone and it often costs the group in some way, she acts like a victim after getting Tom killed. she was hot was about the only good thing going for her until they turned her in to aarons mother
Kate is hated because she never once stops to think why her life is a mess, for the same reasons in civilization as it was on the island. She doesn't listen, she just reacts and does whatever the hell she wants, damn the consequences, and then gets mad at someone else for not following along with her bullshit. Every time I watch Lost, I hate her even more. Jack, too, for that matter for being a self righteous hypocrite. The Marshal, was he ever a candidate? Maybe the island was done with him. Side note - A 9mm isn't killing a polar bear.
Funny, your description could actually describe John Locke too, and Sawyer. Yet they tend to be fan favourites. I don’t buy this reasoning at all. It’s a double standard as far as I can see.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Sawyer was the exact opposite of Kate. He knew he was a bad person and even acted worse to push people away. Kate was a bad person, but actually thought she was righteous in everything she did. Locke was entirely on his own journey, whose circumstances were unique entirely. There is no double standard, it sounds like you're just scared of being called a sexist. You don't have to buy shit, a lot of people see it. Any woman I've introduced the show too hate Kate and it's 100% for those reasons - Because she's a self righteous, hypocritical pain in the ass who fucks up everything she touches and never learns from her lesson. Sawyer at least had a true arc, he genuinely cared about people some later on, but was still self loathing.
This is maybe the third time now that you have gotten very hostile in the comments of my videos. So, firstly, you need to calm down and get some perspective. Kate is a fictional character in a TV show, not your ex-wife seeking an alimony check lol. Secondly, more relevantly, Sawyer was not the exact opposite of Kate. They were *incredibly* similar. He even points that out on multiple occasions, and that's why they have a bond. They are kindred spirits. Although I can see why you have to deny this and pretend Sawyer is the polar contrast because it totally torpedoes your rant otherwise. Let's do a quick laundry list of all of Sawyer's offences, shall we? We don't know how many lives were ruined because of his years of conning people out of their life savings, but we know he was at it for years. Sawyer might realise he is a bad person but that didn't stop him from being a PoS whenever the money suited. He used Cassidy in a long con, got her pregnant, manipulated and betrayed her, then disowned his own child for years and became a deadbeat dad (someone call Judge Judy!). Then he went on to kill a completely innocent man on the other side of the planet. Whilst on the island, he sewed disharmony amongst the survivors constantly, including hoarding supplies and extorting fellow passengers who needed things; being wantonly cruel to people; being racist and bigoted towards Sayid; stealing all of the guns when they were in the middle of a life or death war with The Others just so he could gain some power within the group, using Charlie to rough up poor Sun in the process; we see him being cruel to animals, crushing that tree frog just to upset Hurley; and that’s just all in the first two seasons. And I'm leaving stuff out. All of his behaviours are far worse than anything stupid Kate says or does. Now, why does does Sawyer get a pass for all of that, yet Kate has to burn in your bonfire? I personally like Sawyer and I like Kate despite their flaws (of which they both have many), but I certainly don't judge one over the other with some weird calculus I made up to suit my own preferences. Some people can at least admit they have double standards here, they can acknowledge the hypocrisy of the hate. And there are others who simply didn't like Kate because they found her annoying or they didn't like her flip-flopping between men, and the focus on the love triangle melodrama. I can understand those criticisms. I don't think Kate is without issues. But those aren't your problems with the character, and you are performing every mental gymnastic you can to forgive Sawyer the same sins that you apply to Kate. I wonder why that is, Adam G. I've never been called sexist in my life. Somehow I doubt you could make that same claim.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Low IQ to conflate cussing or condescension with hostility. Grow some balls, toughen up, and accept that your analysis isn't always right or doesn't need to be blindly accepted by everyone else. "Perspective", you mean only see things your, which as a highly analytical and intelligent person, I can objectively say that you're the one who has no perspective. Again, nut up, snowflake. I can say 100% criticize you while being completely calm.
You don't sound calm at all lol! I interact with many people via this channel and I can instantly tell the difference between passion and hostility. You sound very, very angry and frustrated as a man, projecting a lot of that frustration onto randos like me on the internet. You are even invoking some clichéd insults too, as if this were the usual political arguments you get into with people on Reddit or Facebook. I'm a snowflake who needs to "nut up" because I judge two characters on a TV show by the same the standards. Yeah, you sound incredibly well adjusted, objective and reasonable in your responses there, Adam G. Definitely no anger management issues or problems with women there at all. Nuh uh. 😐
Um, I start talking about that 4 minutes into the video and how the love triangle is widely considered to be why so many people came to dislike her, including the actress herself. The question in the title is not rhetorical for me to completely answer, it is an active question to get people sharing their own thoughts in the comments. And you will find a wide array of opinion on the matter. Otherwise I would have phrased it "WHY THE FANS HATE KATE!" like one of those BS clickbait videos. But the focus of the video itself is primarily on Kate’s first centric episode Tabula Rasa, how it launches her character arc, and where it fits within the overall story and mythology. There will be plenty of opportunity to delve into some of the character’s more divisive actions/decisions as we come across them by episode. The conversation about the character is far from over.
I disagree with this take. Sawyer killed Frank Duckett (a totally innocent man) in cold blood and frequently used everyone on the island for his own ends, even instructing Charlie to cause physical harm to Sun as part of his long con to get the guns. That was disgusting too. Yet he doesn’t get judged by the same standard that Kate is held to.
Sure, but this is a channel about LOST, and the hate this character gets is often disproportionate to her portrayal in the show, so it makes for interesting and relevant discussions.
Despite her lack of experience in acting, Lili did absolutely amazing work! She is a better actress than many experienced ones. Kate was brilliantly portrayed by her from the very beginning. I loved her character as well as the other main characters on the show. Lost was my obsession!
Started watching LOST for the 5th time. reached S01-EP04.....
Walkabout! Just finished recording the narration for that episode, and working on the video for it now.
Im on the 12th time. Just finished. I revisit once a year. W every new gf lol!😂
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Best episode of the show!
@@bbt305haha I’m the same, on my 17th watch and showing my new girlfriend it for the first time, we just watched the other 48 days haha.
Wa unfortunate one relationship only lasted until “special” 😂 something THAT relationship was not
Cant wait!
As soon as i see that you posted a new video, I immediately click and like, no need to watch it first to know it is going to be great ! 28:59 later: I can only confirm, thanks again for everything you do with this show. Glad you are planning to do a montage of Sawyer's nicknames, they always bring just a little bittersweet and very much loved pinch of... Sawyerness...
I actually love that episode's final montage, I thought it was perfect for what we could call the first episode: the music, the lyrics, the montage... love it!
It's probably the only pop song montage sequence from the series that works for me, particularly the moment where Sayid throws fruit to Sawyer as a peace offering. It's a cheesy sequence of its time, but dramatically justified. Not sure about some of the other song montages in Season One though!
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 obviously you’ll probably get to that scene when you cover that episode, but you dont fancy the music montage at the end of episode 6 I believe when Kate decided to stay at the beach instead of going to the caves?
@@edvincovic1801 I don't hate it but I just think ending episodes with these musical montages of the group either brooding or bonding (even with good songs) feel a bit dated to me, especially seeing as LOST goes on to become a show with truly amazing endings and cliffhangers. I think they make for generally corny outros.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108Yeah I get you man. I disagree though, and it might be my artsy side shining through but I really like these outros in moderation, and I think LOST does them well. I like the stripped down nature of them and they tend to be very artistic (like good shots, satisfying choice of music and overall mood) and I also sort of like how they invite you to reflect with the characters.
I’ll be tuning in to the next video man! Take care
i’ve been a fan since season 5 aired but only in the last couple years found the fandom and was genuinely so surprised by the amount of hate she got! she’s not my favourite character but the hate ppl have for her is so unfounded and so rooted in misogyny whether they realise or not 🥲 she’s such an interesting character and Lilly plays her so well, thank you for the deep dive !!
Love seeing your Patreon list grow! Thanks again for all your hard work!
And you're one of my OG patrons, Christian! Been with me for pretty much the whole journey. Your ongoing support is truly humbling 🙏
I never knew why Kate wanted to leave the island. I assume another reason to run and leave, like she does. I know if I was in her situation, I'd want to stay
Because if they got rescued, she's going to jail. If she leaves on a raft or a helicopter, she can slip out and run at the right time.
I love this series so much -both LOST and your episode guide😊Kate is also one of my favourite characters so I really appreciate your in depth character analysis of her. I love Walkabout, but the episode that really got me hooked was White Rabbit.
Thanks so much for your efforts❤
been rewatching one episode a day since the anniversary. glad to be back on the island
I love that this channel exists 😍
There he is! I've been waiting for a new video, and here it is! I'm only just starting the video, but I know it'll be a good one as always!
I love this channel! Nothing has truly captivated me like Lost did
I appreciate your attempt to redeem Kate, but Im on the Kate hate bandwagon. I have also worked to understand her, but her inability to empathize and put herself in other shoes while acting like her actions are wholly right is her undoing. Her only redeeming quality is her desire to help, but her inability to understand the consequences of her thoughts and actions always causes her to be nothing but a problem for everyone else. She judges harshly but refuses to be judged herself. Kate never redeems herself. If she had just one episode where she realized and admitted she was wrong about killing her "step father" and learned from that, I might have finally seen her as redeemable, but she is borderline sociopathic.
I love your videos and hope you choose to keep making more. Thanks for all the hard work you put into your content!
For me she’s just annoying and makes dumb decisions
I love your work and dedication, one of the best YT channels out there
A few thoughts:
-That first clip is a hilarious way to start the discussion of the Kate Hate.
-"Hate for Kate is overStated." This is the kind of subtle wordsmithery that elevates this channel. Also the top tier media analysis, but the rhyming goes a long way.
I am so pleased that someone noticed that haha!
So excited for this video! Love your channel so much. I’ve rewatched all your videos so many times. Thanks for everything you do!
Ragarding Kates love for Jack. I think Anna Lucia summed it up perfectly when she tells Jack " Your hot, shes hot"
That's a great line lol!
I never thought much about Sawyer missing the heart. To me it was just someone who, like a lot of people, had the wrong idea of where the heart is. The heart is closer to the center of the chest than most people think. But Sawyer didn't know that so he shot the Marshal's left lung instead.
I like to think it was wryly symbolic: Sawyer missing the heart because he didn’t know how to find it yet.
Can’t wait for you to tie up the Kate hate rebuttal with “I saved you a bullet.” Never thought about it with quite this nuance, but after hearing what you said, this is a perfect end to Kate’s arc, considering that she steps up and takes care of the problem instead of running away or manipulating someone else to be her proxy. She knows that there *is* no one else at that point, and fully embraces “live together, die alone”. In the end, she is with Jack to solve the Locke problem. Forget “strong female character”, that’s just strong character development.
I will concede that I have a blind spot when it comes to whatever Character terry o Quinn is playing. So from ny obviously right (tongue in cheek) point of view Kate was nasty to john and pushed him over the edge to kill himself -checkmark in Kate sux category, and Kate "i saved a bullet for you" she then killed the MIB who was the true heir ti the island (I'm special) and the righteous original "good guy" as he slayed the original evil (mother) and just wanted to go home. Jacob took up the cause of mother so since Jacob took up the cause of evil he is evil (he kidnaps people and sentences them to certain death on an island) and anyone who supports team Jacob is a trash POS bad guy. Much love for the discourse
Omg you're seriously doing a hard work in these videos, thank god I found your Chanel at the right time, if you didn't show up I would have gone crazy !
This show is very complicated ! Thanks to your efforts I do understand what's going on now ❤
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Don't stop keep going we need you here bro 😁
You really should also make a supercut of every time they say "Lost" on the show while you're at it. I was devastated when I found out there wasn't one on YoutTube already.
Great work as everything else on this channel. I look forward to the next episode!
your videos are ace and you have made an INSANE amount of material!
LOST is such a great, layered, character driven show. Thanks for your work. I never was a Kate-hater. On later rewatches, I find her background less exciting than others, but she is a strong and important character in the show. Yes, the writers didn’t use her full potential, but Evangeline Lilly did an incredible job of fleshing out Kate’s character.
I’ll never forgive her for getting on the submarine 😭 Juliet was SO close to going home
How dare she get arrested? lol
I was never a huge Kate fan but with every rewatch i learn to love her more and more! This video also makes me understand her more and appreciate her more! Thank you for that!
Can’t wait for a Juliet episode! She is my favorite
been waiting for this!!
Kate is one of my all-time favorite female protagonists. I did not like her in the Hobbit movies though. Due to the character, not her acting.
Wait Kate is in the Hobbit? Thought that was Evangeline... you learn something new every day!
Another fine example of why I love this show, and this channel. See ya in another life brotha...
I never really understood all the Kate hate. I liked her. I do prefer her when she's not bouncing between Jake and Sawyer though.
Love your videos! You are a true phiLOSTopher :)
love it. you should do individual character video essays at some point,that’d be rad!
I’m hoping to cover all of the character arcs in these videos, so you will get a complete picture of all the main players over time.
I really hope you do continue doing these 🙏
Absolutely, I’ve got Walkabout coming soon (hopefully end of this week). It’s already live on my Patreon and would have dropped on YT last weekend but I’ve got to wait for those pesky copyright strikes to lift first.
Aw man those are very cool, can't wait to see the next ones.
Dammit, I forgot to turn notifications on. Sorry I’m late to the party. I am so pumped to watch this video.
Question for you. My 12 year old son is watching the show for the first time and is just starting season 6, do you think it’ll be easier to follow for him if I tell him what the secondary story is or let him wait and find out? Just curious
I would let him watch it through for the first time without any spoilers or explanations. Let him experience it purely so he can get the full impact of the surprises. After it ends, if he has questions or confusions then you can start discussing the details with him. The show opens up lots of thought avenues, no matter what the age. I think he will have questions but within those questions lie the most rewarding conversations that you can have between the two of you. That would be my advice :-)
I always found it curious that the series goes from flash backs in the early seasons, over flash forwards in season 4 to flash sideways in season 6.
They really got all their flashes covered.
Don’t forget about Desmond’s flashes before his eyes!
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108flashes inwards, if you will
How could anyone hate Kate? She was amazing (and acted so beautifully by Evangeline).
Imagine a plot line of Jack saving the Marshall but he has amnesia. The tension from Kate and the viewers knowing but he has no idea during interactions (is he remembering flashes or is he oblivious). Maybe it would stunt the growth of Kate’s character from the path they wanted to use. Probably an over played plot line and glad it’s not there. But…..
…some things the Marshall would say sarcastically could be funny to us (alarming to Kates flight response) or building on the idea of a second chance on the island (where her flight response to him would go away) only to have the reality off the island and accountability of her previous actions would hit her character harder (Oceanic 7? Sawyer jumping would still make sense due to weight). We could be shown that the Marshall is testifying, but as the Marshall or on her behalf as his Island self- tension for us and Kate not knowing. It could of worked while looking cheap in the beginning
He might of even sided with Jack; being at his core, more pragmatic and seeing things as purely black and white. But the shock of him going from a hard-nose Marshall to being all about destiny on the island is a thought. Flashbacks of him chasing Kate would have weight for both characters
Maybe this is too much of a thought tho. Interested to hear constructive thoughts - not trying to provoke hateful lil quibs
Good video - showing Kate was a powerful and strong but flawed character that became a key part of LOST as Lilly grew into the character and made it her own. The few people I knew who hated Kate were women. Maybe some of them saw Kate in themselves? I see parts of myself in Hugo, Locke and Jack. I had no idea that originally Jack was to be killed off and essentially replaced by Kate. Glad the showrunners decided to change that.
Initially when crafting the Pilot episode, the idea was to introduce Jack as the lead then kill him off at the end of the episode. They wanted to cast Michael Keaton in the role and build a lot of the promotional material around his star casting, only to then pull the rug out from beneath the audience. Basically, what happens to the Pilot in the cockpit is what would have happened to Keaton’s Jack. Killed by the monster and his pulverised body dropped in a tree! But the network put the kibosh on that idea. Like you, I’m glad that never happened! It would have been a shock but it also would have robbed the show of a character who the series came to be built around. Fascinating part of the show’s early development process though!
I never knew "everyone" hated Kate. I never did.
It’s not everyone, only some. But they are very vocal. If you’ll scroll through the comments you will see multiple takes from those who have nothing good to say about her. To me, it’s never made sense considering the nature of various characters on the show. Sawyer, Ben, and even the Man in Black, all will receive passionate defences from many of the same fans too. They think Kate was the worst thing to happen to The Island. It’s a really weird social phenomenon within the fanbase. I don’t agree with their criticisms. If they hold Kate to a higher standard than the aforementioned male characters then I find that to be a rather *double* standard. If Sawyer gets a pass, Kate should get a pass. They are similar characters. The major difference is that Kate is a woman and the linchpin of a divisive love triangle.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Ah, I see. "Some". My bad. I always found her character intriguing. I always found all the characters intriguing actually. I fell in love with the show for its characters. I recall, when I was younger (when the show first came out and I was watching each episode as it was released), I remember losing interest around season 3 and then stopped watching at season 4/5.... It was back in 2023 that I decided to rewatch it again and found that the seasons beyond season 3 were really great. I LOVE the whole show of lost. That is when I discovered your channel, after I watched the entire series through. I remember, when I was younger, thinking the later seasons were very silly. Now, I find that they are very moving and... Fantastic.... It is a very great show and I feel that the ending is so very good.
Thank you for making videos on Lost. :)
They are very interesting and they make me enjoy the show even more.
That’s really delightful to hear! Thank you for letting me know 🙏
I watched Lost as it aired and participated frequently on Lost TV forums and there was never any particular "Kate hate".
Yes, it’s interesting. I only really started to come across “Kate hate” in the postscript of the series. You are far more likely to encounter it now on Reddit and Facebook (and in a few comments under this very video!). But by no means do I think it is a majority held opinion.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Interesting, I am getting back into this. I think I will do a rewatch and see what the Reddit commotion is about haha. thanks!
the problem with kate is that her backstory is simple and overdone. just one or two would have sufficed, instead we got half a dozen all saying the same thing. in contrast island mystery is sketch and brief and rarely repeated. when i rewatch, keep the remote handy to skip kate, rewatch island mystery.
Kate was my crush
Kate is my favorite character…. I can’t stand that people talk bad about her.
Kate is the worst character in Lost. She only have looks on her side that is why some like her
@@GöstaHöstassonshe can’t be the worst when Zoey exists 😂
@@jamescarr1265 True but worst of the big characters at least :)
@@GöstaHöstasson I agree. Claire is also very boring.
Kate is THE WORST. she is completely selfish and motivated strictly by her own selfish motivations. She is a liar, a cheater, a murderer and kidnapper, who couldn't follow orders and always messed things up. John (the most selfless character on the show) asks her to help her friends and asks if she even cares and she laughs in his face and insults him...only to do what he wanted her to do after she basically bullied John into suicide. Her absolute selfishness is what sets her apart from every other character on the show. F Kate, you don't get to do 1 good thing and think that makes up for her being trash for 5 1/2 seasons. Kate is the worst
edit... as always your videos are the best and you are the LOST authority, and I am remiss if I didn't say thank you
I hear ya, but we can take those exact same criticisms you have made of Kate and apply them to someone like Sawyer. He is also a liar and a murderer (who killed an innocent man in cold blood); he is always frustrating the plans of the group because of his own twisted hangups and schemes; he hoards supplies, he bullies and belittles, he is bigoted, he is cruel to animals, he even gets several of our main characters killed in the final season when he messes with the bomb.
Now, there are reasonable explanations for all of the behaviours and flaws in both characters, but I find it fascinating how Kate is held to a higher standard than Sawyer is, even though he is by far and away the more problematic personality between them, especially in the first couple of seasons. Both characters have flaws and do questionable things in their own self-interest, and both eventually overcome those flaws in the final half of the series. I honestly think a lot of this comes down to likeability factor. Sawyer, even when he's being absolutely horrid, is simply more charming, and audiences love a bad boy. He gets to be the rogue. Whereas Kate becomes the lynchpin of a love triangle and languishes for a couple of seasons as the object of affections, and that makes her less likeable because of the flip-flopping between men.
However, I maintain that Kate did no worse than Sawyer on or off the island and that they should at least be judged equally. Also, if the fanbase can embrace a selfish sociopathic personality like Ben (who genuinely puts everyone in harms way for his own ends quite frequently) then they can give poor old Kate a break lol! She's in no way *that* bad, at least not from where I am sitting.
p.s. thank you for the kind words added at the end there! I hope to strike up some more of these debates going forward as I think they are really fun and illuminating. I'm going to wade into the love/hate debates around several other major characters very soon too, including Locke, Jack and Charlie. All of them have vocal fans and vocal detractors. It's gonna get wild!
@LOSTEXPLAINED108 no problem, it's not hard to say kind words when they are true. And I am not saying sawyer or any other lostie isn't a terrible person... they all are. It's just that Kate is the worst becuase of selfishness. Every other character had self motivation but not the sole motivation and that's where her problem stems from. The only 2 characters in my opinion who had the right priority (the island, as it is the source of all) john, who we know what Kate did to him, and Ben, who foe all his thirst for power always knew the island was priority #1(see alex) the rest of them were tr a sh people but I enjoyed there journey and story none the less. Thanks for the dialog, and massive respect for your dedication and overall awesomeness
Never in my wildest dreams would I ever have imagined reading people who disagree on RUclips comments be so respectful 😂 faith in humanity restored a little bit.
Keep up the good videos!
@GenshinIntervention normally is am overwhelmed with hate for this exact take, but this guys channel is like the mecca of LOST and I would never dare disrespect him (if possible)
@msto1987 it's kinda crazy cuz I totally see both of your points so like to me even, both of yall are kinda right 😆
For me, in the same line of reasoning yall already based your opinions on, I'd have to say I have a particular distaste for Jack's character and motivations up until maybe the last season
Rewatching Lost (fav show ever cause of the cast and their great acting) for like the 20th time, but first time with my boyfriend who has only seen season 1. We are on season 4 episode 5! Started like two weeks ago lol ❤😊and …. I LOVE KATE!
Hey man, loving these videos! Question, did you use an AI voice for some of your earlier videos? I'm rewatching them all and noticed a massive different in voice
Yes, that's correct. I didn’t have recording equipment back when the older videos were made so I used a text-to-speech voice. But as the channel grew, so too did the calls for me to get a mic and use my real voice. So, I did just that and remade all of the old videos using my own voice and better quality footage from the show, adding more detail and information as well. The Theory of Everything six-part series contains everything that was touched upon in those earlier, shorter videos.
Love it man! I think your voice fits really well with the vids, so I was a bit disappointed when I went back and noticed that ahaha
Have you got a discord at all?
I don’t have a Discord, mainly because I have no idea how to use the platform lol!
I loved that outros with the music because the songs were always great. Yes they were corny but whoever picked the songs had good taste imo.
Doesn't help that the showrunners were openly sexist. When asked which three people he would want to spend time on the island with? I recall he told a fan he would choose Kate because he wanted some eye candy. And now all the revelations that came out in the new book about misogyny and racism and so on the production of the show... It's definitely disappointing
It amazes me how this show progressed from being stranded on a mysterious island to the spiral stories that stitched together by the final episode.
At first I found myself disliking Kate but it had more to do with her romantic flip flop (Skate or Jate?). After rethinking it, my dislike has more to do with who Kate became when she was with either guy. I liked Kate when her stories weren't about the guys in her life on or off the island. Those were her better moments imo.
I agree - Kate was always at her most compelling when she was dealing with her own baggage and storylines. I think the writers recognised this (eventually) and made Kate’s main mission in the final two seasons about going back for Claire. Kate’s whole arc was about getting her to stop running away and to stand and face her past actions and mistakes, but she didn’t really get to start doing that until the latter half of the series. I agree she was kept in stasis with the love triangle, but so were many other aspects of the general storytelling during that period.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 so glad the writers eventually realized how to develop Kate as her own character. I agree that other aspects at the start were also in stasis. I think Kate not being set in a specific place was another part of why I initially didn't like her. When I understood that was part of her character I liked her character more. I tend to have trouble seeing the bigger picture but once I got a grasp on it I think it helped me understand better (even the show). Makes for a better viewing experience imo.
Steely Dan must hate her:” Katie Lied”
I never figured people did dislike her, never heard that was a thing.
I don't think it's an overwhelming majority, just a significant, vocal contingent of the fanbase in places like Reddit and Facebook. I think a majority of audiences don't even judge characters in stories all that harshly, they tend to go with the flow. As long as characters don't act "out of character" for the sake of moving the plot along, people don't tend to take issue. Usually, if there is a wide dislike of a character it comes down to either the nature of their role within the story (villains get a lot of hate from the public, like the poor guy who played Joffrey on Game of Thrones) or it is about a general dislike of the actor playing the character. Out of the millions of people who watched LOST, I honestly don't think Kate was hated by majority numbers.
Another excellent video. It’s no reflection on your work, but I still don’t understand the Kate hate. She’s a flawed, complex character who grows over time and redeems herself. She’s gutsy and heroic, as well as very easy on the eyes. She kills the Man in Black! Also, as murders go, her father had it coming.
People, save your ire for Nikki and Paulo!
Next one can’t be far away now
Almost! It’s already live on my Patreon, I’m just waiting for the copyright strikes to clear on RUclips. Hoping it will be this week or next! 🙏
Evangeline Lily best described Kate in an interview where she answers Google questions, "What did Evangeline Lily do on Lost?" And the first thing she said was "Well, I crashed on an island. I flirted with two boys..."
I recently played through the lost video game "via domus" and it had a lot of interesting things considered canon as well as a confusing plot that lines up with events on the show. I haven't seen many people talk about it in a real way. Would you consider making content on the lost game?
I've never actually played Via Domus before as I'm not much of a gamer. However, I am aware of the general story and I have used the still of "the incident room" from the game several times throughout my videos. It is a really cool depiction of what the button was discharging on the other side of that barrier.
Let's go I'm here for every single breakdown of every single episode going to be unique going through the seasons like this
Also I would like to know if you’ve heard of the Philadelphia experiment about the uss elderridge? And the military organization DARPA?
Hey, I’ve watched most of your videos and haven’t really seen this spoken about but maybe I’ve missed it. I was just wondering, do you know how they decided who would survive the island? So Kate, Sawyer etc.
It’s always seemed really odd to me that they got to survive, but Jin and Sun didn’t
They always knew that Jack would survive until the last scene and the show would end with his death. I think they also always planned for Locke to eventually meet his demise and that to be the turning point in the show. But as for other characters who died and those who survived to the end, it was mostly down to what the writers felt worked best for the story/audience at the time.
If we were to break down the logic behind those final choices... Jin and Sun's deaths were designed to help contextualise just how dangerous the Man in Black was to the group and to give us extra reason to hate him as the arch villain. We needed a tragic set of main characters deaths to help do that. I think Kate couldn't die because Jack's final fate was never in doubt, so the woman he loved had to live on so he could have a victory/comfort in his final moments. Whereas Sawyer and Hurley were both too wildly popular to kill off -- I think they knew that killing off the fan favourites would have left a bitter aftertaste. However, we could tinker with the show in our heads to come up with an alternative set of survivors. Example: Sawyer dies in the finale in a moment that redeems his actions on the submarine, while Jin survives the sub to go back to raise Ji Yeon.
Hello bro please enter the turkish subtitle,i cant explain how love this series,but i cant understand anything
iyi şanslar!
You should make a video on the theory that Kate was pregnant by Jack on the second flight to the island and that David (in the flash sideways/ purgatory) is actually Jack and Kate's son and not a construct of Jack's mind to work through his daddy issues.
The second time they flew out to the island, Eloise said that they should recreate events of the first flight on Oceanic ...
And indeed most of them were recreated, like there was a coffin on the plane, a prisoner, someone with a guitar, a married woman, and what's left? A pregnant woman!
And that's Kate....
I read this theory a lot and someone very smartly pointed out the recreation of events... And apparently Kate's pregnancy and David being her and Jack's son was confirmed by an executive product on Twitter and by Eva. Lilly herself on Instagram?
Would love to hear your take on this... I need to know if there is any trurh to this so I can rest lol
Thanks
I did touch upon this in my video of the sideways and talk about that theory towards the end of the analysis: ruclips.net/video/DHAWeG_0hPk/видео.html
I never realized Kate was so hated. I’ve been obsessed with Lost for so long, but I never spent time on the forums or really even discussing with other people because I felt like I was always trying to convince people that my favorite show was, in fact, good… and that’s annoying. I’ve always loved Kate and identified with her most of all the original characters. I love a complicated female character who is smart, strong, and self sufficient.
She is vocally hated by a portion of the fanbase but by no means is that hatred as widespread as it seems. It comes from Reddit and Facebook threads about her, which themselves stem from old forum discussions many moons ago.
I think she splits opinion - some of whom absolutely love her and those who intensely dislike her. What I don’t like is the vitriolic nature of the criticism. It gets very ugly sometimes. I personally have never understood people who get that enraged by fictional characters.
I’ve always liked Kate - she’s a great wild card character - although the writing for her in Seasons Two and Three trapped her in that love triangle stasis. I think she came into her own more in the second half of the series once she got storylines that went beyond the dynamics with Jack and Sawyer.
I only started watching this because of the weird C4 advert with the opera theme I was like what is that?! after two episodes though the only reason I kept watching was because Evangeline Lilly was in it😉 she was lovely and so cool at the same time, then the mystery deepened and they clearly were making one of the cleverest TV programmes of all time so I had to watch it all like 10 times tbf maybe 15 once Desmond and time travel were introduced
Grazie, sempre grazie per le condivisioni! Personalmente penso che Kate sull'isola è la persona che più ha convertito la sua vita precedente. Semplicemente ha smesso di scappare ed ha cominciato ad essere. Come donna è stata la contraddizione e la divisione contraddittoria sentimentale, carnale e passionale e...ma se fosse stata uomo a farlo forse avrebbero perdonato😂 grazie ed un abbraccio grande e pieno di gratitudine dall'Italia! ❤
Sono d'accordo con te! 🙏
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 💕🙏
I met few people with her demeanor and I wish I didn't. However, while she was insufferable to me, she still wasn't the worst.
Completely insufferable.
Can you address how Sun's baby got a raw deal and theories that might soften that? I like to imagine she ended up friends with Aaron or even adopted by Claire, but how when her evil grandparents have her now 😢
I will eventually get around to discussing all of the raw deals that characters got as a result of The Island's machinations (and some of the writersroom more questionable choices). This episode guide will cover it all, including all of the Jin and Sun storylines.
The real villian in Lost: Jack
When I watched the show the first time when it aired originally 20 years ago I liked all of the survivors characters more or less, including Kate, except Michael. But while rewatching the show now, 20 years and a lot of my own life experiences later, I do not like her anymore and that from the very start.
Kate was a coldhearted, selfish and manipulative bitch and behind Michael I hate her the most. She disguised behind a friendly, nice and helpful facade, but she only cared for herself, never listened, could not take a no, stuck her nose into everything even when being told not to, because she thought herself being so clever which she was not and therefore brought the group in difficulties due to her irrational behavior more often than not.
And she never ever showed any remorse and shrugged off lightly every bad action she's ever made and never thought twice about it.
What brought me up against her irrevocably was how she used Sun when she was devastated by losing Jin while he prepared to leave the island on Michael's boat. Kate manipulated Sun to poison Jin so he would fall sick and would not be able to leave with the boat and his place on the boat could then be taken by Kate. This was a despicable thing to do and Sun even thanked Kate for giving her that idea, and Kate looked very pleased with herself and never ever regretted it or confessed to Sun, as Charly did after he abducted Sun.
But this showed me that Kate only was on the outside seemingly nice and helpful to people because this way she could find out how she could use them or a knowledge about them for her own advantage, and she never showed any remorse, regret or even questioned herself or her actions. Even with the murder of her stepfather she always felt that she did the right thing, and was appalled that the world did not think the same way and kept on getting other people in danger, hurt and killed to get her will.
I hate it very much that Jack even fell for her and Kate was always lashing out and overreacting when she did not get her will with Jack, i.e. using Sawyer to sleep with him, although she knew very well that Sawyer loved her. She was toxic and no good for anyone.
Sawyer instead did not hide his character and everybody knew what to expect of him, but he showed more insight, self-loath and redeeming qualities than Kate ever did. Behind Sawyer's hard shell one could spot his inner turmoil and self-loath. He made people hate him on purpose because he thought of himself as not being lovable for all that he had done.
Kate never questioned her actions and deeds; she thought of herself being in the right. And that is the big difference.
She has her hateable moments, just like many other liked characters. But still cant hate the character itself.
It's tough. She's typically great on island and in the flashforwards but her backstory is definitely flawed a bit.
Kate is awesome. I think unfortunately she gets hate for things that both Sawyer and Sayid get a pass for. If she was a man, fans would have called her badass and a great antihero. Kate is resourceful, brave, a little dodgy and broken yet loyal. If she was a dude, fans would be saying she's a complex character, however, she's written off as annoying because we are not used to seeing her type of female characters.
Exactly! If she had been a male character she would have been closer to a Sawyer type - a criminal interested in self-preservation - and we know the fandom embraces him without many reservations, despite some of his extremely ugly behaviour during the first two seasons. He is far more of a problem to the group than Kate ever was. So, I tend to agree with your take on this. It’s certainly an unfair double standard. That’s not to say that Kate’s arc doesn’t get frustrated by all of the love triangle melodrama (I think the writing for her is uneven in Seasons Two and Three) but she gets much better material once she is off the island and decides to go back on her own terms.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 The love triangle didn't bother me much because in my opinion it was handled better than love triangles in other shows. It did not last the entire series. It was explored more in depth in season 2 and 3, and a little in season 4. Kate was indeed confused by her feelings for Sawyer and Jack and the actress portrayed that perfectly. It did not bother me as much as Sayid falling "in love" with Shannon while he claimed he was searching for Nadia, then just going back to Nadia like he never fell in love with Shannon, and I say this because Sayid is my favorite character. Kate is a complex character. I always hated how in season 2 and 3, Jack excluded her from missions. I would have her on my team any day.
To be honest, I quite enjoyed the love triangle too. But I do see the criticism of how Kate’s character became the lynchpin of that triangle for those two seasons, and that became her only major storyline essentially. At least until she got off the island. But then we could make that case for several characters who get trapped in stasis between Season 1-3 because the story had to spin its wheels. I still like Kate and think she is a great character on the show. Never agreed with the hate she got. I too would have her on my team if I were on the island, she’s extremely resourceful and loyal to the Oceanic group.
The thing is sawyer not comitted to anyone kate technically in love with jack and get jealous when jack talk with other women its not cause she women pls get ur point rit....
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108sawyer is not in love with anyone... but kate is.... with jack and get jealous when jack hangout with other women.......
I didn’t even know there was Kate hate. I felt in her interactions with men off the island she only responded manipulatively because of the obvious predicable effect she had on them, to be immediately desired. I imagine this was tiring, considering it was something she had to endure continually with her stepfather. It’s no wonder she used this to her advantage whenever she could to survive
I was just wondering since I dont remember very well eveything, when Sawyer & Co go back in time and they merge with the Dharma, Sawyer start talking with Richard, but did he ever meet him before that moment? and if not how did he knew who he was? and he start talking about how he's waiting for john locke to came back, how did he knew this?
I believe that is their first scene together but it's worth remembering that Juliet has been with Sawyer's group the whole time (she is in the house with Sawyer when Richard shows up at the barracks). We see her telling the Oceanic survivors about The Others at various points, including specifically mentioning Richard to Locke. So, we can assume Sawyer learned about Richard from her too.
Sawyer says to Richard the following:
"I also know that 20 years ago, some bald fella limped into your camp and fed you some mumbo jumbo about being your leader. And then poof... he went and disappeared right in front of ya. Any of this ringin' a bell? That man's name is John Locke, and I'm waitin' for him to come back."
Sawyer was saying that he himself is waiting for Locke to come back, not that he thinks Richard is waiting for Locke. He only references events that he is aware of having taken place in some form.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 This def makes more sense thank you, everytime I'm doubtful about something in Lost I know where to ask ;)
ok I'm in the middle of a rewatch and atleast one time Sawyer heard the name of Richard, in S5 ep 03 during Juliet's conversation with the captured Others in Latin she says "Ricardo Alpert"@@LOSTEXPLAINED108
They should have got Willem Dafoe to play the Marshall lol
Possible spoiler alert
I think Mikhail lost his eye by the hands of Jin in the sideways flash, in the restaurant kitchen scene with Keamy & Sun.....😊
Dude, is there a release schedule for this rewatch?
I am going to try my best to keep videos coming each month. In an ideal world, I would like to release one every two weeks, but that would require me to make them full-time and, as of yet, the channel isn't quite justifying a 24/7 commitment. If subs continue to increase and ad revenue goes up a bit more, or I get more patrons, I'll be able to invest extra time into the project and speed up the release schedule.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 No worries. I'll flip the usual rewatch process on its head. I'll wait until your episode drops and then watch the episode after that. That way it will be fresh in my mind.
SPOILERS FOR _LOST_ (OBVIOUSLY), _FORREST GUMP_ AND _INSIDE OUT 2_
I always viewed the hate Kate attitude (at least from what I've seen) from fans as some of them thinking her playing people against each other is a flaw in the writing when it is her character's attitude because she is on the run. The same thing happens with _Forrest Gump_ fans hating on Jenny for her childhood effecting why she doesn't stick around with Forrest. Both characters have have reasons behind their bad behavior, but are still critisized by some without those some understanding why they act that way. You might as well say Riley in the Inside Out 2 movie is evil. It just doesn't work that way.
I still think Jenny was pretty mean to Forrest it’s not like he had it easy either she was obviously traumatised but that doesn’t excuse all bad behaviour Xander Harris often alludes to absent parents his still a jerk to Cordy and Willow and Anya !
I agree that some audiences tend to conflate intentional character flaws with flaws in the actual narrative or the writing itself.
@@buckdancer8916 Xander Harris sticks around to yell at his friends and hold their issues against them (not just who you mentioned, but Buffy, Giles, Riley and others, as well). Jenny deals by not being around and, sadly, that is how she needs to get better. Perhaps Forrest could have helped, but he also live too close to where it all happened. And Jenny clearly has trouble with that. Forrest also didn't comprehend exactly what happened. It's not a coincidence that Xander's true turning point of dealing with his issues starts in the comics after Sunnydale is destroyed (the place where his dad was abusive). The same works for Jenny as well. Both characters issues are understandable even if pepople don't always like their actions. And that was the point of my original comment: the difference between intentional character issues and actions vs writing flaws.
I was loving Kate at the beginning but as through the ending jack-kate-sawyer love triangle really gets boring. And since she is the center of this crisis her story becomes boring. She was represented as a woman who can't just decide the man she loves. When she was with sawyer in season 3, jack and juliet started flirting and we saw kate was uncomfortable with it. When they got rescued, we saw kate-jack were engaged, but it didn't work. Still, it was clear that jack loves her so they were in a complicated situation. Then they went back to the island and saw sawyer-juliet have been in love for 3 years and happy. Even her past with jack and sawyer's present with juliet, an awkard atmosphere was created between these two. It seemed like the writers were trying to push kate-sawyer at background. When juliet died and we get to the end, kate told jack she loves him and show ended with kate-jack love in the purgatory. Love her for her work in the island but after a certain time, I couldn't stand that love triangle and kate's uncertainity about her feelings towards jack-sawyer.
I think this is very fair and astute criticism of the character. Her being the lynchpin of the love triangle was a detriment to her arc and development in those first few seasons in particular. I think it was tempered more in those final seasons as she had her own goals and motivations beyond the triangle, like dealing with her own fugitive past, raising Aaron and going back to find Claire.
I was one of those fans and still am. She never redeem herself for me even after 6 seasons.
I don't know why exactly but she is so unlikable to me.
Even Charlotte got to kind of likable state and that says a lot about how unlikable Kate is in my eyes 😂
P.s. I've been rewatching my other favorite series from the 2000s Fringe and i gotta say it is a masterclass at writing characters and especially a female lead. It is nothing like the modern "strong whamen character" trope. Characters written under that trope don't feel human... Olivia is one of the most human characters on TV ever.
lol, you literally bring up one of the annoying aspects as a supposedly redeeming characteristic: You compare Kate (25 years old) to Locke (52 years old), because they both go against the group. She is even in the trusted inner group despite not being trustworthy. Boone was 25 years old (at least the actor was), and look at the difference in behaviour and privilege of Boone vs Claire, especially in their interaction with Jack. Boone is wise enough to know that people who are 15 years older than him might have more experience
The point was that Locke doesn’t get the same level of hate for the same behaviours, neither does Sawyer. Kate is held to a higher standard in her actions by some fans who will find excuses for the terrible actions of other characters quite often. Boone was not wise lol. He followed Locke to his death because he thought Locke knew what he was doing.
I just fell like Kate and more specially the love triangle draged down some characters especially during season 2.
That’s very fair. And I agree with this. Season Two and Three dragged the love triangle plot line out to breaking point.
Delirious with fever and annoyed with Kate?
I’ll throw my vote with this choice…I never hated Kate, but overall (not all the time) I found the character to be fairly annoying.
The Marshall was also not a candidate
kate was hot
Because of misogyny being acceptable on message boards in the 2000s.
Also some of the original writers were Buffy alumni, and her characterization was in the Buffy/Faith vein. It was supposed to be revealed that she was Ben and Annie’s daughter.
I think Jack was the most annoying character.
Who would watch LOST without Kate?
Yeah need someone who always gets caught by the enemy and gets everyone horny
Blind people
Kate was my favourite character, she was a brilliant character. I never understood why her crime was made to be this terrible thing, she saved her mom and herself from a violent abuser - i saw this story as a reflection of double standards.
I think whichever way we look at it, Kate still committed murder. Yes, Wayne was a horrible, abusive sleaze. I wasn’t sorry to see him go boom. But she didn’t kill him in a moment of self-defence or in a way that the law might take a sympathetic view on. It was a very carefully planned premeditated act of cold blooded murder. And Kate was treated like any premeditated killer, it didn’t matter what her motives were. So, while I view her crime as understandable in many ways, it was treated as a terrible act by the law for justifiable reasons. Her mother saw it this way too, which is why she called the cops on her own daughter. Kate’s actions were ultimately wrong. As the great philosopher Buffy Summers once said: you can’t beat evil by doing evil.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 i forgive her, she can come and live with me! But then she became an Elf …
Kate denied it later but it was clearly hinted that his father did something really wrong to her. And not just violence. That explains her behaviour a lot. Can we expect her to be rational and trusting all the time after that? She was feeling better when when she was a good parent to Aaron. After all I think there was a lot of logic in her charater’s behaviour. She was not feeling good mentally for obvious reasons during first seasons.
Are you the Coursera plus guy it's uncanny if not
I don't even know what Coursera is lol.
Seriously the guy who did these videos a few years ago. Coursera advert it
@@domflint1863 Na, you'll have to link it.
K8 is Gr8
Don't h8 K8
This aint b8
Not only is Kate an awesome character she is also good eye candy.
All women yeah.
???
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 She if fit.
i.e. All women hate her.
Hahaha, my girl said the same. She couldn't stand her and her antics.
I couldn’t and can’t stand Kate. Maybe I’m Jack biased but soon as she hooked up with Sawyer I was done with her. Not to mention how smart she thought she was but wasn’t. I was just watching “the variable” yesterday and she couldn’t even comprehend What Daniel was saying and opposed Jack. F Kate. Sorry not sorry. But I gotta admit as a stand alone character she was a great redemption story. Very complex as you say.
I hate Kate. But like the actress.
Where do I start…she used her childhood boyfriend to see her mother which led to his death…she had a boyfriend rob a bank to steal a toy plane that she didn’t keep…and she stringed Jack and James a long throughout the show. Then once Jack and her were off the island, she did not tell Jack that James asked her to provide money to his daughter which led Jack not trusting her. The when she went back to an island, she damaged James’ relationship with Juliet. Based on her past with James, she should had given him space because he was in a serious relationship. I didn’t hate her character…but I found her frustrating with how she used men who loved her to get what she wanted.
I think if we were to take a more popular character and break them down in this same way we could highlight all of their terrible decisions and flaws in a similar light.
Let’s use Sawyer. He used Cassidy in a long con, got her pregnant, manipulated and betrayed her, then disowned his own child for years (make a great case on Judge Judy!). He killed an innocent man whilst on a revenge kick. Whilst on the island, he sewed disharmony amongst the survivors constantly, including hoarding supplies; being wantonly cruel to people like Jack, Sayid, Hurley, etc; stealing all of the guns when they were in the middle of a life or death war with The Others just so he could gain some power within the group, using Charlie to rough up Sun in the process; he was sometimes cruel to animals; and that’s just all in the first two seasons! I haven’t even mentioned the fact that he is with Juliet for three years then the moment Kate comes back he starts making doughy eyes at her, which Juliet notices and reacts too. Or that Sawyer’s reckless actions on the sub indirectly lead to multiple deaths including Sayid, Jin and Sun. Could do the same negative breakdown with Charlie or Sayid or Locke.
When we judge character actions in the harshest, least sympathetic light, they will always cast long and dark shadows. I just find that people tend to hold Kate to a higher standard than they do with other characters who, arguably, do a lot worse and a lot more harm than she ever did. Yet someone like Sawyer remains a fan favourite, regardless of how heinous or annoying some of his behaviour was. I just find that double standard of judgment unfair yet somehow also rather fascinating in terms of audience and fan psychology.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 true…but the title of the video was why people hate Kate. James was a character who changed on the island the longer he stayed. When he had a chance to leave and go back and save his mother, he decided to stay on the island and convinced Juliet to stay with him when she wanted to leave. James was an awful human being before he came to the island because the real Sawyer destroyed his family which had him follow a similar path. Once the island allowed his path to cross with Sawyer and he killed him…he changed. I don’t think James would had killed Sawyer and he just wanted to explain to this man how he destroyed his family, but that man was pure evil and didn’t care that he destroyed Sawyer’s family. Even when James did the same con to woman, once he found out they were parents he walked away from the deal when the husband was going to give him the money. When Juliet died and he briefly started to go on a dark path again with the MIB, that finally broke the spell Kate had over him. Once he knew Juliet was gone, he knew he lost his chance at happiness. I really felt bad for Juliet because she was also happy with James. She saw her parents divorce as a child, her former husband cheated on her and was going to blackmail her for her knowledge with medicine cures, her lover on island was sent on dangerous mission with the passengers of 815 and was killed once they figured out they had a spy living with them. Then Juliet finds happiness with James, but she sees how James looks at Kate which showed he still had feelings for her. And once her and James are on the sub leaving the island 🏝️…then Kate is placed on the sub at the very last minute. I don’t hate Kate…but found her so frustrating at times.
I'm playing devil's advocate here really because I like both Kate and Sawyer as characters, and have no real beef with either. What this video and my comments are trying to convey is that I find the hate that Kate gets incredibly disproportionate to her overall arc and function within the narrative, and I have never really understood the reasoning people often give. My comparison to Sawyer, and the reason for writing out his laundry list of awful past and present deeds (which either equal or outnumber Kate's), was to essentially compare two similar characters and how one gets a lot of hatred while the other not only gets a pass, but is somehow canonized into this weird form of fandom sainthood. When I see the reasons people often give for Kate hate, they almost invariably come down to the same sins that someone like Sawyer has committed.
How many lives were ruined because of Sawyer's years of conning people out of their life savings? Sure, he walked away from that last deal with the couple because he saw the kid, but that wasn't his first time. He had that con down to a fine art. He didn't go through with that one because seeing the boy reminded him of his own tragic childhood, and how a con artist destroyed his family. It's at this moment that Sawyer realised he had become the man he was hunting. But that doesn't wash away the pain and suffering he caused past victims. He still goes on to kill Frank Duckett in cold blood. Then his behaviour on the island itself? I mean, he is so incredibly horrid to the other survivors for such a long time. He hoards vital supplies then extorts people to get access to them; he threatens and physically injures other passengers; he racially abuses Sayid; he is cruel to animals as we see with the boar piglet and when he crushes that poor old tree frog in front of Hurley, etc. I could go on. In real life, Sawyer would be considered a toxic human being and shunned by everyday people like us. Yes, his attitude and behaviour improve across the series, especially once he is thrown into a leadership position in Season Five. But it's a very long journey to get there.
Kate is, arguably, far more relatable than Sawyer. Sure, she's a criminal, but she wants to help her fellow passengers survive and thrive. She's resourceful and mucks in whenever asked. She is compassionate and cares about the new friends she has made. All these things that Sawyer does not care about for a very long time. Kate's biggest sin to people seems to be her flip-flopping between men which, in the grand scheme of sins committed on that island, is fairly minor lol. Yes, she is self-interested, and stubborn, and duplicitous at different points, but never to the extent that Sawyer is. He literally hoodwinks the entire camp to gain control over the guns in a silly power play that puts everyone's safety at risk in a way that Kate's actions never did. Kate also goes through changes in the last few seasons too. She learns to care for someone else other than herself (Aaron), she stops running away from her responsibilities (goes back to the island), she becomes a more moral, responsible person (protecting children, trying to prevent more violence, being the voice of reason), etc. Kate might not have the dramatic change in arc that Sawyer has, but she had a lot less changes to make in the first place. Because, unlike Sawyer, she wasn't nearly as damaged.
Basically, the whole point of my comparison here is not to take anything away from either character, but to simply say: if we are going to judge Kate by all of her faults and flaws, we have to judge Sawyer by the same measurements. I can't selectively apply judgements to one character simply because they didn't have as fully realised of an arc. Perhaps that is what it comes down to: Sawyer's arc was better than Kate's. He's also more charming, even when he is being bad. People love a bad boy! And I honestly believe that it's no small thing that Kate is a woman, and women get judged more harshly in these kinds of stories. I found both characters frustrating at different points for different reasons, but I don't think I judged Kate more harshly for her mistakes than I did Sawyer. To me, they were shadow selves of one another; very similar personalities, which is why they were a good romantic pairing for a while. However, when you are too much like someone, it can burn bright and fast then fizzle out.
Anyway, sorry for the essay lol. I appreciate your frustrations with Kate. She has a rough time of it for a couple of seasons, but I think the character recovers in the second half of the series when the focus moves away from all of the love triangle stuff.
she fucks around 2 of the most beloved characters in the show, she never listens to anyone and it often costs the group in some way, she acts like a victim after getting Tom killed. she was hot was about the only good thing going for her until they turned her in to aarons mother
Kate is hated because she never once stops to think why her life is a mess, for the same reasons in civilization as it was on the island. She doesn't listen, she just reacts and does whatever the hell she wants, damn the consequences, and then gets mad at someone else for not following along with her bullshit. Every time I watch Lost, I hate her even more. Jack, too, for that matter for being a self righteous hypocrite. The Marshal, was he ever a candidate? Maybe the island was done with him. Side note - A 9mm isn't killing a polar bear.
Funny, your description could actually describe John Locke too, and Sawyer. Yet they tend to be fan favourites. I don’t buy this reasoning at all. It’s a double standard as far as I can see.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Sawyer was the exact opposite of Kate. He knew he was a bad person and even acted worse to push people away. Kate was a bad person, but actually thought she was righteous in everything she did. Locke was entirely on his own journey, whose circumstances were unique entirely. There is no double standard, it sounds like you're just scared of being called a sexist. You don't have to buy shit, a lot of people see it. Any woman I've introduced the show too hate Kate and it's 100% for those reasons - Because she's a self righteous, hypocritical pain in the ass who fucks up everything she touches and never learns from her lesson. Sawyer at least had a true arc, he genuinely cared about people some later on, but was still self loathing.
This is maybe the third time now that you have gotten very hostile in the comments of my videos. So, firstly, you need to calm down and get some perspective. Kate is a fictional character in a TV show, not your ex-wife seeking an alimony check lol.
Secondly, more relevantly, Sawyer was not the exact opposite of Kate. They were *incredibly* similar. He even points that out on multiple occasions, and that's why they have a bond. They are kindred spirits. Although I can see why you have to deny this and pretend Sawyer is the polar contrast because it totally torpedoes your rant otherwise.
Let's do a quick laundry list of all of Sawyer's offences, shall we? We don't know how many lives were ruined because of his years of conning people out of their life savings, but we know he was at it for years. Sawyer might realise he is a bad person but that didn't stop him from being a PoS whenever the money suited. He used Cassidy in a long con, got her pregnant, manipulated and betrayed her, then disowned his own child for years and became a deadbeat dad (someone call Judge Judy!). Then he went on to kill a completely innocent man on the other side of the planet. Whilst on the island, he sewed disharmony amongst the survivors constantly, including hoarding supplies and extorting fellow passengers who needed things; being wantonly cruel to people; being racist and bigoted towards Sayid; stealing all of the guns when they were in the middle of a life or death war with The Others just so he could gain some power within the group, using Charlie to rough up poor Sun in the process; we see him being cruel to animals, crushing that tree frog just to upset Hurley; and that’s just all in the first two seasons. And I'm leaving stuff out. All of his behaviours are far worse than anything stupid Kate says or does.
Now, why does does Sawyer get a pass for all of that, yet Kate has to burn in your bonfire? I personally like Sawyer and I like Kate despite their flaws (of which they both have many), but I certainly don't judge one over the other with some weird calculus I made up to suit my own preferences. Some people can at least admit they have double standards here, they can acknowledge the hypocrisy of the hate. And there are others who simply didn't like Kate because they found her annoying or they didn't like her flip-flopping between men, and the focus on the love triangle melodrama. I can understand those criticisms. I don't think Kate is without issues. But those aren't your problems with the character, and you are performing every mental gymnastic you can to forgive Sawyer the same sins that you apply to Kate.
I wonder why that is, Adam G. I've never been called sexist in my life. Somehow I doubt you could make that same claim.
@@LOSTEXPLAINED108 Low IQ to conflate cussing or condescension with hostility. Grow some balls, toughen up, and accept that your analysis isn't always right or doesn't need to be blindly accepted by everyone else. "Perspective", you mean only see things your, which as a highly analytical and intelligent person, I can objectively say that you're the one who has no perspective. Again, nut up, snowflake. I can say 100% criticize you while being completely calm.
You don't sound calm at all lol! I interact with many people via this channel and I can instantly tell the difference between passion and hostility. You sound very, very angry and frustrated as a man, projecting a lot of that frustration onto randos like me on the internet. You are even invoking some clichéd insults too, as if this were the usual political arguments you get into with people on Reddit or Facebook. I'm a snowflake who needs to "nut up" because I judge two characters on a TV show by the same the standards. Yeah, you sound incredibly well adjusted, objective and reasonable in your responses there, Adam G. Definitely no anger management issues or problems with women there at all. Nuh uh. 😐
Wow!! 40 minutes of jibberidhhhh and not once did u mention why they hate Kate. My time is LOST!!!!! 🤬
Um, I start talking about that 4 minutes into the video and how the love triangle is widely considered to be why so many people came to dislike her, including the actress herself. The question in the title is not rhetorical for me to completely answer, it is an active question to get people sharing their own thoughts in the comments. And you will find a wide array of opinion on the matter. Otherwise I would have phrased it "WHY THE FANS HATE KATE!" like one of those BS clickbait videos. But the focus of the video itself is primarily on Kate’s first centric episode Tabula Rasa, how it launches her character arc, and where it fits within the overall story and mythology. There will be plenty of opportunity to delve into some of the character’s more divisive actions/decisions as we come across them by episode. The conversation about the character is far from over.
I was never her fan. Least fav. And i never knew i wasn’t the only one. Even the actor w all that plastic surgery now is nasty.
Her mom explained it best. You can't help who you love. She murdered Wayne in cold blood. The way she used Sun was disgusting. Kate just sucks.
I disagree with this take. Sawyer killed Frank Duckett (a totally innocent man) in cold blood and frequently used everyone on the island for his own ends, even instructing Charlie to cause physical harm to Sun as part of his long con to get the guns. That was disgusting too. Yet he doesn’t get judged by the same standard that Kate is held to.
Fully agree. It's very hypocritical lol. She wasn't bad the first watch but the more I watched LOST the more I hated her.
She is the wooooooorrrrrrssssssttttttt
Every character has people that don’t like them this isn’t exclusive to Kate or lost
Sure, but this is a channel about LOST, and the hate this character gets is often disproportionate to her portrayal in the show, so it makes for interesting and relevant discussions.