Thanks for watching! Any questions, chuck em here and I'll see if I can answer them. Please keep it civil in comments so we can have a productive discussion Part 1 can be found here: ruclips.net/video/T-DqsbBYakg/видео.html
I wonder how did we come to this, how all these "gaming" sites become the cesspool they are today... All this hate. I think it runs much deeper than gamergate.
Well, I think what was/is an outlet for a lot of us growing up has been used to manipulate the culture as a whole. A lot of devs use games to push ideology, the goal isn't to make a good game anymore. One can argue that the same influence that corrupts the film industry took notice of the budding game industry, then proceeded to pump money and resources to produce games that serve as simply a medium to push their ideas. That's why independent devs are being championed by the culture as a whole. We are all sick of being treated the way we have been by triple A game developers.
The bad journalism does. Kane and Lynch 2 review buying and Driv3rGate are proof of it. GamerGate was basically when some dude wrote a bitter screed about some girl he had relations with that had wider industry implications, everyone noticed, and instead of doing the right thing and largely ignoring it, said some girl decided to send out a DMCA strike and journalists circled the wagons. Does it run deeper? Yeah. But no one would really know that if it wasn't for GamerGate blowing up.
@Harley_Mitchelly I always get frustrated when people say GG was because of Quinn. It's like saying WW1 was just because of Archdude Ferdinand's assassination. The room was already filled with paper and and gunpowder.
Thank you for the video! I wish I had a fraction of your speech-skills and knowledge as I often stumble when I wish to convey topics I want to chat about.
Thanks! I really appreciate it. If it's any encouragement, I'm not that articulate, you can probably tell my voice sometimes cuts in the editing. Sometimes it takes me many takes to get what I'm trying say across and I have to write out everything. Like anything though, the more you do it the better you get at it.
Rather than having civil conversation, both sides went for their swords. This is one of the major problems of internet relations. We can never come to common ground and identify if the person is actually a good person or bad person...
How do you engage in conversation with people that reflexively hurl accusations of bigotry, racism, sexism lgbthobia etc at the first whiff of a challenge to their behaviour or worldview, then go private and block everyone while continuing to make up narratives that your existence is dangerous without engaging with the people they’re making up narratives about, all the while trying to cancel, or purge you from what for many is the only thing that provides a relief from the daily grind of life?
@@abletobeconfused Usually I find if I happen to meet that type of person in real life, which is rare, they don’t start up with saboteur tactics. Anonymity doesn’t exist when they’re face to face with people, and that voids any sense of prestige or power they think they possess over others. Since there’s no opportunity there to gaslight people, I can go about my day. I’ve often found that these are just reclusive if not miserable individuals who by their own volition disassociate from others in a social setting. Basically a Gollum or Wormtongue at the closing of LOTR. You just end up pitying these people and move on.
Can't say both sides if one side simply blocks you, calls you an -ist or -phobe, threatens to kill you or dox you all while you're simply trying to show them the reciepts.
Both Side? When one side is being accused, being called "-ism", "-ist", and "-phobic", no one says anything. But when that side decided to fight back, people start complaining about how both side didn't wanna have Civil conversation. The talks like yours are like the criticism from "Human Rights Group". It doesn't care the facts---it only blames the side that fights back. Just like how Human Rights Group saying that El Salvador lock up gangster is inhumane, yet ignore tons and tons of lives that being taken away.
Recently I just came back from a trip to Mexico and taking those 2 weeks off from the Internet has done my mental being wonders. Unfortunately, from what I've noticed pretty quickly, the corruption and poorly researched topics about gamers and representation from online news sites have been so politically driven and biased that they've gained enough support to quash what actual gamers are trying to say. I find it all the more demeaning that we, both gamers and these online journalists, don't want toxicity to fester within the community but these wounds are self-inflicted, and the concept of taking/accepting responsibility has been ignored and replaced for finger pointing or stubbornness.
As someone who was involved with communities that got greatly involved with gamergate in years leading up to it, one thing many people dont realize with these retrospectives is there was a long build up of sentiment against games journlaists and them not being ethical. We grew more and more discontent with how the journalists would get more and more elaborate Swag Boxes from the companies alongside the review copies. They get money writing about the unboxing of rhe box and all the nice things the company sent them, then turn around and sell the swag on ebay and bragged on social media how much money it got them. And then they make glowing reviews of the game without disclosing in that article they got such nice gifts from the company. A lot of us were making comparisons to the Gamespot Kane and Lynch debacle that had occured some years before this wave of discontent started growing. This discontent built over time and then it combined with a discontent over seeing articles clearly not aimed at gamers start to become the norm. So that volatile storm brewed until Zoey Quinn became the straw that broke it
Thanks for your insight. I did go into it that in part 1. But you are right, I didn't go into the gift giving and favours side in great depth. That could be a whole episode on its own I think. It's crazy how now we have a similar problem with youtubers and streamers. Though, I think it's much easier to gauge the integrity of an individual and read their bias vs an entire company.
@@livaveragegamer oh most definitely, and it also reminds me of how the hospital network my mother worked at had to ban any of those little giveaway gifts or any other favors from pharmaceticuls, like those bone shape pens with a drug name on it or catering. It indeed got to the point the ladies in charge of scheduling started turning away sellers if they weren't supplying lunch for the day. But yes, so much more happened before the actual catalysts of gamergate. And of course things didn't help when you had people enter the fight who STRICTLY had the motivation of fighting SJWs and Political Correctness culture. It was a perfect cocktail of discontentment
This is exactly what I keep trying tk tell people People act like the animosity against games journos came out of nowhere when it was already there. People got swept up in Gamergate because it vindicated existing negative sentiment and strained relations the gaming community had with them already. I love that the first part touches the fact gamers already were complaining about the nature of the game review space and how screwy it was because it gets to the heart of the actual reason any of it took off. I wasn't even myself in gamergate, but I was in the gaming community at the time and was sympathetic to it because I was already fed up and frustrated with the entire space feeling like stuck up people that didn't even care about games yet getting to control the narratives around the hobby, as well as the general sentiment they cares more about their circle jerk and had an elitist view of us etc. Once the journos all coluted to lambast all gamers, it was a confirmation of all thr native views we already had about the people in these positions. I'm a transgirl and not even white is the worst part.
He was absolutely right - the problem is that there are sides. We're just playing games, and that's what should be important. The problem begins when very small amount of people with ill intentions gain too much influence to shape future of those games. It really seems that the entire original gamergate situation was just a group of journos realizing they can restart intense bullying of their own audience, get out of it scot-free, and than everyone decided to do that. Division was just manufactured by those journos.
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' - this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats" - Aldous Huxley Your right about the actions of both sides. Its easy to forget or justify your actions under the banner of retaliation. Eventually dehumanizing each other just becomes sport. However, maybe I'm negative, but I think this was always the inevitable outcome. What do you do when one side explicitly says they don't care about the other and draws lines in the sand for you? Its not an advocation to be uncivil, but when someone kicks over the tables and rages war, what do you do? Looking back I don't think people understood what was really going on. It wasn't a group of people trying to invade a space. It was more like a group of people who where already within the space trying to consolidate and exert power over it. Then when challenged where explicitly in intention. Which leads to was Gamergate worth it? In reality I think it was always inevitable and unavoidable. Gamers just want to be left alone and it seem like these people just didn't like their audience. They wanted something else (next to the corruption) which people where receptive to. How they got to these positions who knows. But its also important to factor the escalating political climate at the time. Mariel Cartwright of Skullgirls is a good example of this erosion of "dream" for the pull of personal politics overtime. Where they always like that? Who knows, but what they wanted to insert was never going to gel with gamers. At the end of the day GG I think was always a losing battle. The "Gamers" were people on the ground against the "other" which was a group with press and developer connections. The "gamers" being a large uncontrollable group, who could have a single unhinged face exposed, boosted to paint them all in a light. - Jace Conners of Deagle Nation. While the Journalists could just never address a controversy, downplay it to a mass audience or conflate the whatever was going on. You notice with their articles or responses how they constantly talk around the points and try and lump in a bunch of other factors to try and shame whoever is acting. The only way to get something conclusive from them was if someone broke ranks. Meanwhile these advocates went on to speak at the United Nations and game devs to shape the narrative (like Wikipedia). I feel like it was the beginning of what we see today. Both sides are just happy with having "their" narrative on the events and couldn't care less for what the other thinks. So while it was mess beyond believe. I think these was the best outcome. While it really is a story of 2 sides - And Im sure people will write you off for even getting into the nitty gritty of the side they dislike. The fact that corruption was exposed and a seed was planted in the minds over everyone best that could be hoped for. Thanks for trudging through the sludge to make this video.
Another perfectly level headed take, that's why I really enjoy your content, you don't feel overly partisan, though I think it's interesting that we have the threads of a nefarious conspiracy of self promotion and protection and on the other we have the guilty party, people of all colors, walks of life, nations and political leanings coming together to defend their hobby. Because like you said, they attacked our outcast identity, they chased us out, we left, we built something and now the cool and hip kids who shunned us now wanted in, but the nerds, the geeks, the freaks didn't want them and their spurious, incestuous, self preferential and referential relationships, so it was time to chase us out, is like that one Alex Norris "webcomicname" (the "oh no" comics) where they chase us out, we make our own thing, they invade our space, and now they wanna chase us out. Again funny how all of the figures on their side were named and had brands and influences and connections and yet the only remarkable name of that era was a journalist for a digital magazine (Milo) and TotalBiscuits who either him or AngryVideogameNerd (who really wasn't a figure in the controversy) is understood to have been the one who leaked the e-mails for the coordinated attack on gamers. The rest all marched in lockstep wanting to be with the ideological orthodoxy of the accepting and benevolent. The rest of the figureheads? Sargon of Akkad, ShoeOnHead, TheAmazingAtheist, Armored Skeptic, Computing Forever, Andy Warski, a bunch of ideologically varied individuals with a sole intention, getting videogames to keep being a medium for gamers, not for a bunch of griefters. And as for gamers: it's simple, we need to split from these people, some self selected set of creatives, I've said it once and I'll say it again, before the clout, before the fame, before the money, women, the few and far between that were, they were making games, playing games, the self selected few that wanted to, the ones who genuinely liked it. Roberta Williams, the one who liked text adventures so much she wanted to make them more immersive by adding art to the games and invented with her husband Ken Willians the graphic adventure genre of games. Or Amy Henning (based aunt) who wrote the Uncharted franchise, is one half of the two people team that made The Last of Us 1 into what it is and wrote Legacy of Kain, who on an interview a few years ago said, when asked if the industry was sexist, she answered "no, I think it's all a matter of skill, if you're good at what you do the industry will welcome you with open arms". And even on smaller roles, like the environmental texture artist for a small title you might not have heard of called "Half Life" was a woman. But again, need and self selection took them there, not a need to invade. We must separate the wheat from the chaff, keep the people who work hard and get rid of the identity obessed activist. Who aren't women black and lesbian but politically a woman, politically black and politically a lesbian.
Just finished part 1 and I'll be finishing part 2 when I'm taking a walk later. Thanks for all the information man. Also no UR Formidable yet unfortunately, but we're getting her muse form! Edit: Also Live2D skin!
Gamers have been "dead" for a decade, strangely enough, the gaming industry rakes in larger and larger revenue somehow considering that gamers are supposedly "dead".
Yeah, well it's a really interesting take. One of the articles claimed that it was the extinction scream of our "identity" but really it far more accuratley describes the decline in journalism. Even on its face it doesn't make sense unless you think the western world is suddenly about to turn to heavy socialism. You can't "kill" a customer base as long as there is demand. You can however, "kill" redundant services.
They'd argue that by turning away from 'gamers' to the wider audience, they've been proven correct. Given the popularity of pre-ordering and the endless waves of garbage games that sell the same thing every year, they're sort of right.
@@livaveragegamer I would really hope gaming journalism is reborn and performed by passionate gamers, not activists and failed politics writers... I remember when I got my ps2, reading gaming articles for Price of Persia to get over a level and finding the water sword. I hate how it went from that to heavy politics and hating their customer base. Kotaku was about to take a stance to bring that kind of content back, but again they revoked their decisions to stop making gaming guides...
There's a lot of games being played in the background. I recognize some but not all. Can I get a source for all the games being played? Please and thank you.
Great video. That last message about the language we use - YES, stop falling into the trap of talking at their level with their lingo. Right-wing, woke-ideology, this shit isn't actually helpful to describe the issues we have, nor is it really defensible under scrutiny. If entertainment history is going to remember this moment, I want it to show that the bad faith actions of journalists have gaslight and entire community and caused divisiveness where there was none. When I debated this point to a "friend" this weekend, he staunchly believed that gamers don't want women to play their games and they're mad about it. Also, "it's a Trump conspiracy". It's so.... exhausting. Love the video, I wish this and the last one got more attention from the likes of Asmongold. You're 100% right, well researched, and actually seem to have good faith. You deserve more coverage.
Absolutely, the terms being used are incredibly fluid. "you can't be racist to whites" - "Oh, no, white means any person or race that is a benefactor of the patriarchy" Don't let people like this push you around. Make them define their terms and hold them to their definitions. Never take their terms as a known common understanding.
I mean, I've never spared gaming journalists much thought outside of the one time where we questioned them for not getting through the cuphead tutorial.
banger video. when you started quoting kyle around 15:26 my jaw hit the floor. it's *worse* than I thought I knew. I'm very interested in what's to come. I mainly keep out of online drama, including the current sweet baby inc stuff. So I only know some base facts, I'm really curious what you'll uncover. oh yeah I forgot to ask last time, have you seen Airplay and did you have any specific thoughts about it?
.... 😭 When you miss a really important piece of information in making a video. I've watched it now. It's a great resource that is more in depth than my work. It gives more context than I could. I wasn't willing to cover certain allegations in that level of depth because I felt like it was distracting from the core talking points. Airplay also covers the history in a lot more detail which is great. I'm sad that no one seems to know about it. I think they need to change the title though
@@livaveragegamer This has been something in the works for years at this point, and there's even a director's cut/part 2 on the patreon/SubscribeStar/whatever it is they used. It's all basically the most underground documentary ever, and AIRPLAY's name has actual significance to the deep lore of GamerGate. MentisWave, if you don't mind out and out political RUclips discussing this, has also covered not only why the Wikipedia article is stupid wrong about it, but also why people keep wanting to make this about harassment against females, AND why the research on this is shoddy at best. Signed, an old-head of GamerGate who saw that stuff unfold in real time. Games Urinalism, because I'm gonna call it what it is with that, has been terrible for quite some time and this precedes anything GamerGate by a bit. See the Kane and Lynch 2 review buy scandals and Driv3rGate.
@@Harley_Mitchelly thanks for adding to the conversation, truly appreciate it. Mentiswave is fascinating, his video on the wikipedia page was part of my research so you may see some overlap there.
This was the culture war basically gearing up. On the side of things I watched at the time. Personal anecdote of course, This was the shift. At the beginning, it was "freedom of speech". To let everyone speak their mind, and let the good ideas gain ground. Do not stoop to bad tactics like gatekeeping and censorship. Basically taking the moral high ground, and never doing anything the other side was doing. But as more and more of our hobbies were infected and strip mined, that line of thinking went away. Now it was war. Whatever they were willing to do, do it back to them. It reached a point TODAY, where we are happy that people are losing their jobs to AI in localization. Dimitri Monroe, local femboy has some good words about this; ruclips.net/video/4FDeFibU07s/видео.htmlsi=Vk3f4ljhZ8dvHSGe My suggestion, keep your head down, and just vote with your wallet. Don't let the culture war turn you into a scumbag that harasses people.
The wizard chan thing...during the time of ZQ "harassment" claim is it a well known site during that time?how do you get there?what is the age range of the site visitor?do they have any convicted police record beside fines/summons and etc. I would like to know more but I am not an authority.
I keep seeing all these interesting games so I'm just going to ask this time. What's the game at 28:39. Secondly, I'm wondering what the game at 18:39 is. And Thirdly the game at 31:25.
1. Punishing grey raven 2. Romancelvania 3. Soulstice. Always welcome to ask if its about games ✌️ ... Side note, I'm not sure if your tag for 1. Was punishing grey raven or... subverse... Do not look up that game unless you are looking for adult content.
I never had an xbox so I can't really speak to halo 3 without revealing my playstation bias 😂 but you're not wrong. Recent studies are showing it too. Game devs in 2024 don't understand what legacy is beyond a brand name.
As much as I can empathize with the "just use plain english" sentiment, terminology will always exist to describe very specific things. There certainly is a rampant problem of this terminology losing its meaning when many people have a superficial understanding of it and the meaning rapidly changes. This makes discussions involving said terminology to be counter-productive when two parties are on different pages, but without it discussions can become impossibly verbose. Additionally, I've noticed a pointedly reactionary drift in which terminology can get co-opted as shorthand to dismiss entire points of view, which I believe deserves to be pointed out and pushed back against because it's frankly disingenuous. A good example of this is "woke".
I think we are in agreement. I could have explained my position better. I use terminology as well but I use established terminology and if I think there will be any confusion then I define it before continuing. I think this needs to be basic etiquette if you want to engage in sensitive topics. But yes, you'll see in part 4 how "diversity" is disingenuously used within the full scope of what it can mean when portrayed as a positive but only defined in the scope of DEI when attempting to apply change. I think we agree on words like "woke" as well. I think you can define it but I also think people use it poorly, same with "reactionary" You are using it correctly. But like... Yes, a lot of people will just react with the least/most charitable base derivative they can to things they don't like/ like. I wonder if attention spans and internet culture has anything to do with it 😂
@@livaveragegamer It now occurs to me that I used "reactionary" incorrectly, or at least not for the meaning I meant. I'm struggling to find a word that adequately describes it, but your description, "a lot of people will just react with the least/most charitable base derivative they can to things they don't like", is a perfect representation of the behavior I'm getting at. Just goes to show that being aware of the problem doesn't make it magically go away 😂
That really wasn't a thing when I was growing up. gamers were there, we or know one really cared to use out loud. Talked about games all the time even the ones we played and or preferred over others. the only time nerd came up or the thought of for any such thing were on movies like revenge of the nerds and the more recently big bang theory. But Games as hole I guess the only people that really got made fun of were the guys playing with pokemon and yugi-oh cards in highschool.
I agree with the last sentiment. There are millions of good people in the gaming space and some of them are even journalists! But it is the small number of assholes on both Gamers' side and the activists on journalists' side that we have a bad connection!
@@livaveragegamer it is. dont spend your money on the products infested with the nonsense. if what we believe to be true, is those products will die out. The only agenda is profit. somehow the big producers have been convinced the profit lies with appeasing what most consider to be a vocal minority that doesnt even consume the product. Time will ultimately tell us who is right.
Thanks for watching! Any questions, chuck em here and I'll see if I can answer them. Please keep it civil in comments so we can have a productive discussion
Part 1 can be found here: ruclips.net/video/T-DqsbBYakg/видео.html
Great video. Looking forward to part 3.
I wonder how did we come to this, how all these "gaming" sites become the cesspool they are today... All this hate. I think it runs much deeper than gamergate.
Well, I think what was/is an outlet for a lot of us growing up has been used to manipulate the culture as a whole. A lot of devs use games to push ideology, the goal isn't to make a good game anymore. One can argue that the same influence that corrupts the film industry took notice of the budding game industry, then proceeded to pump money and resources to produce games that serve as simply a medium to push their ideas.
That's why independent devs are being championed by the culture as a whole. We are all sick of being treated the way we have been by triple A game developers.
The bad journalism does. Kane and Lynch 2 review buying and Driv3rGate are proof of it. GamerGate was basically when some dude wrote a bitter screed about some girl he had relations with that had wider industry implications, everyone noticed, and instead of doing the right thing and largely ignoring it, said some girl decided to send out a DMCA strike and journalists circled the wagons.
Does it run deeper? Yeah. But no one would really know that if it wasn't for GamerGate blowing up.
@Harley_Mitchelly I always get frustrated when people say GG was because of Quinn. It's like saying WW1 was just because of Archdude Ferdinand's assassination.
The room was already filled with paper and and gunpowder.
As someone who was there since the beggining, I'm very thankful for your efforts in these videos, Liv. Simply fantastic work. Thank you so so much.
Thank you for the video! I wish I had a fraction of your speech-skills and knowledge as I often stumble when I wish to convey topics I want to chat about.
Thanks! I really appreciate it. If it's any encouragement, I'm not that articulate, you can probably tell my voice sometimes cuts in the editing. Sometimes it takes me many takes to get what I'm trying say across and I have to write out everything. Like anything though, the more you do it the better you get at it.
You are doing a necessary and very professional job here. Thank You.
Rather than having civil conversation, both sides went for their swords. This is one of the major problems of internet relations. We can never come to common ground and identify if the person is actually a good person or bad person...
How do you engage in conversation with people that reflexively hurl accusations of bigotry, racism, sexism lgbthobia etc at the first whiff of a challenge to their behaviour or worldview, then go private and block everyone while continuing to make up narratives that your existence is dangerous without engaging with the people they’re making up narratives about, all the while trying to cancel, or purge you from what for many is the only thing that provides a relief from the daily grind of life?
@@abletobeconfused Usually I find if I happen to meet that type of person in real life, which is rare, they don’t start up with saboteur tactics. Anonymity doesn’t exist when they’re face to face with people, and that voids any sense of prestige or power they think they possess over others. Since there’s no opportunity there to gaslight people, I can go about my day. I’ve often found that these are just reclusive if not miserable individuals who by their own volition disassociate from others in a social setting.
Basically a Gollum or Wormtongue at the closing of LOTR. You just end up pitying these people and move on.
Both sides? That’s just plain wrong
Can't say both sides if one side simply blocks you, calls you an -ist or -phobe, threatens to kill you or dox you all while you're simply trying to show them the reciepts.
Both Side? When one side is being accused, being called "-ism", "-ist", and "-phobic", no one says anything. But when that side decided to fight back, people start complaining about how both side didn't wanna have Civil conversation.
The talks like yours are like the criticism from "Human Rights Group". It doesn't care the facts---it only blames the side that fights back. Just like how Human Rights Group saying that El Salvador lock up gangster is inhumane, yet ignore tons and tons of lives that being taken away.
Recently I just came back from a trip to Mexico and taking those 2 weeks off from the Internet has done my mental being wonders. Unfortunately, from what I've noticed pretty quickly, the corruption and poorly researched topics about gamers and representation from online news sites have been so politically driven and biased that they've gained enough support to quash what actual gamers are trying to say. I find it all the more demeaning that we, both gamers and these online journalists, don't want toxicity to fester within the community but these wounds are self-inflicted, and the concept of taking/accepting responsibility has been ignored and replaced for finger pointing or stubbornness.
As someone who was involved with communities that got greatly involved with gamergate in years leading up to it, one thing many people dont realize with these retrospectives is there was a long build up of sentiment against games journlaists and them not being ethical. We grew more and more discontent with how the journalists would get more and more elaborate Swag Boxes from the companies alongside the review copies. They get money writing about the unboxing of rhe box and all the nice things the company sent them, then turn around and sell the swag on ebay and bragged on social media how much money it got them. And then they make glowing reviews of the game without disclosing in that article they got such nice gifts from the company. A lot of us were making comparisons to the Gamespot Kane and Lynch debacle that had occured some years before this wave of discontent started growing.
This discontent built over time and then it combined with a discontent over seeing articles clearly not aimed at gamers start to become the norm. So that volatile storm brewed until Zoey Quinn became the straw that broke it
Thanks for your insight. I did go into it that in part 1. But you are right, I didn't go into the gift giving and favours side in great depth. That could be a whole episode on its own I think. It's crazy how now we have a similar problem with youtubers and streamers. Though, I think it's much easier to gauge the integrity of an individual and read their bias vs an entire company.
@@livaveragegamer oh most definitely, and it also reminds me of how the hospital network my mother worked at had to ban any of those little giveaway gifts or any other favors from pharmaceticuls, like those bone shape pens with a drug name on it or catering. It indeed got to the point the ladies in charge of scheduling started turning away sellers if they weren't supplying lunch for the day.
But yes, so much more happened before the actual catalysts of gamergate. And of course things didn't help when you had people enter the fight who STRICTLY had the motivation of fighting SJWs and Political Correctness culture. It was a perfect cocktail of discontentment
This is exactly what I keep trying tk tell people
People act like the animosity against games journos came out of nowhere when it was already there. People got swept up in Gamergate because it vindicated existing negative sentiment and strained relations the gaming community had with them already.
I love that the first part touches the fact gamers already were complaining about the nature of the game review space and how screwy it was because it gets to the heart of the actual reason any of it took off.
I wasn't even myself in gamergate, but I was in the gaming community at the time and was sympathetic to it because I was already fed up and frustrated with the entire space feeling like stuck up people that didn't even care about games yet getting to control the narratives around the hobby, as well as the general sentiment they cares more about their circle jerk and had an elitist view of us etc.
Once the journos all coluted to lambast all gamers, it was a confirmation of all thr native views we already had about the people in these positions.
I'm a transgirl and not even white is the worst part.
He was absolutely right - the problem is that there are sides. We're just playing games, and that's what should be important. The problem begins when very small amount of people with ill intentions gain too much influence to shape future of those games. It really seems that the entire original gamergate situation was just a group of journos realizing they can restart intense bullying of their own audience, get out of it scot-free, and than everyone decided to do that. Division was just manufactured by those journos.
Exactly
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' - this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats" - Aldous Huxley
Your right about the actions of both sides. Its easy to forget or justify your actions under the banner of retaliation. Eventually dehumanizing each other just becomes sport. However, maybe I'm negative, but I think this was always the inevitable outcome. What do you do when one side explicitly says they don't care about the other and draws lines in the sand for you? Its not an advocation to be uncivil, but when someone kicks over the tables and rages war, what do you do?
Looking back I don't think people understood what was really going on. It wasn't a group of people trying to invade a space. It was more like a group of people who where already within the space trying to consolidate and exert power over it. Then when challenged where explicitly in intention. Which leads to was Gamergate worth it? In reality I think it was always inevitable and unavoidable.
Gamers just want to be left alone and it seem like these people just didn't like their audience. They wanted something else (next to the corruption) which people where receptive to. How they got to these positions who knows. But its also important to factor the escalating political climate at the time. Mariel Cartwright of Skullgirls is a good example of this erosion of "dream" for the pull of personal politics overtime. Where they always like that? Who knows, but what they wanted to insert was never going to gel with gamers.
At the end of the day GG I think was always a losing battle. The "Gamers" were people on the ground against the "other" which was a group with press and developer connections. The "gamers" being a large uncontrollable group, who could have a single unhinged face exposed, boosted to paint them all in a light. - Jace Conners of Deagle Nation. While the Journalists could just never address a controversy, downplay it to a mass audience or conflate the whatever was going on. You notice with their articles or responses how they constantly talk around the points and try and lump in a bunch of other factors to try and shame whoever is acting. The only way to get something conclusive from them was if someone broke ranks. Meanwhile these advocates went on to speak at the United Nations and game devs to shape the narrative (like Wikipedia).
I feel like it was the beginning of what we see today. Both sides are just happy with having "their" narrative on the events and couldn't care less for what the other thinks.
So while it was mess beyond believe. I think these was the best outcome. While it really is a story of 2 sides - And Im sure people will write you off for even getting into the nitty gritty of the side they dislike. The fact that corruption was exposed and a seed was planted in the minds over everyone best that could be hoped for. Thanks for trudging through the sludge to make this video.
Another perfectly level headed take, that's why I really enjoy your content, you don't feel overly partisan, though I think it's interesting that we have the threads of a nefarious conspiracy of self promotion and protection and on the other we have the guilty party, people of all colors, walks of life, nations and political leanings coming together to defend their hobby.
Because like you said, they attacked our outcast identity, they chased us out, we left, we built something and now the cool and hip kids who shunned us now wanted in, but the nerds, the geeks, the freaks didn't want them and their spurious, incestuous, self preferential and referential relationships, so it was time to chase us out, is like that one Alex Norris "webcomicname" (the "oh no" comics) where they chase us out, we make our own thing, they invade our space, and now they wanna chase us out.
Again funny how all of the figures on their side were named and had brands and influences and connections and yet the only remarkable name of that era was a journalist for a digital magazine (Milo) and TotalBiscuits who either him or AngryVideogameNerd (who really wasn't a figure in the controversy) is understood to have been the one who leaked the e-mails for the coordinated attack on gamers. The rest all marched in lockstep wanting to be with the ideological orthodoxy of the accepting and benevolent. The rest of the figureheads? Sargon of Akkad, ShoeOnHead, TheAmazingAtheist, Armored Skeptic, Computing Forever, Andy Warski, a bunch of ideologically varied individuals with a sole intention, getting videogames to keep being a medium for gamers, not for a bunch of griefters.
And as for gamers: it's simple, we need to split from these people, some self selected set of creatives, I've said it once and I'll say it again, before the clout, before the fame, before the money, women, the few and far between that were, they were making games, playing games, the self selected few that wanted to, the ones who genuinely liked it. Roberta Williams, the one who liked text adventures so much she wanted to make them more immersive by adding art to the games and invented with her husband Ken Willians the graphic adventure genre of games. Or Amy Henning (based aunt) who wrote the Uncharted franchise, is one half of the two people team that made The Last of Us 1 into what it is and wrote Legacy of Kain, who on an interview a few years ago said, when asked if the industry was sexist, she answered "no, I think it's all a matter of skill, if you're good at what you do the industry will welcome you with open arms". And even on smaller roles, like the environmental texture artist for a small title you might not have heard of called "Half Life" was a woman. But again, need and self selection took them there, not a need to invade. We must separate the wheat from the chaff, keep the people who work hard and get rid of the identity obessed activist. Who aren't women black and lesbian but politically a woman, politically black and politically a lesbian.
Just finished part 1 and I'll be finishing part 2 when I'm taking a walk later. Thanks for all the information man. Also no UR Formidable yet unfortunately, but we're getting her muse form!
Edit: Also Live2D skin!
Flop yeah! I practically had nothing to do with it but I'm taking the credit 😤
@35:38 was a gamers' creed that brought tears to my eyes
Enjoying the history lesson, thanks.
Gamers have been "dead" for a decade, strangely enough, the gaming industry rakes in larger and larger revenue somehow considering that gamers are supposedly "dead".
Yeah, well it's a really interesting take. One of the articles claimed that it was the extinction scream of our "identity" but really it far more accuratley describes the decline in journalism. Even on its face it doesn't make sense unless you think the western world is suddenly about to turn to heavy socialism. You can't "kill" a customer base as long as there is demand. You can however, "kill" redundant services.
They'd argue that by turning away from 'gamers' to the wider audience, they've been proven correct. Given the popularity of pre-ordering and the endless waves of garbage games that sell the same thing every year, they're sort of right.
The most dangerous human is a desperate simp, as gamer gate proved
Gamergate is my favourite time of the year
Holy moly, I hope it stays a once a decade thing personally.
@@livaveragegamer gentlemen, I want to see blood!
Listen, I'm just saying, this could have been all been solved with a best of 5 MK 9 match
@@livaveragegamer I would really hope gaming journalism is reborn and performed by passionate gamers, not activists and failed politics writers... I remember when I got my ps2, reading gaming articles for Price of Persia to get over a level and finding the water sword. I hate how it went from that to heavy politics and hating their customer base. Kotaku was about to take a stance to bring that kind of content back, but again they revoked their decisions to stop making gaming guides...
There's a lot of games being played in the background. I recognize some but not all. Can I get a source for all the games being played?
Please and thank you.
Great video. That last message about the language we use - YES, stop falling into the trap of talking at their level with their lingo. Right-wing, woke-ideology, this shit isn't actually helpful to describe the issues we have, nor is it really defensible under scrutiny. If entertainment history is going to remember this moment, I want it to show that the bad faith actions of journalists have gaslight and entire community and caused divisiveness where there was none.
When I debated this point to a "friend" this weekend, he staunchly believed that gamers don't want women to play their games and they're mad about it. Also, "it's a Trump conspiracy". It's so.... exhausting.
Love the video, I wish this and the last one got more attention from the likes of Asmongold. You're 100% right, well researched, and actually seem to have good faith. You deserve more coverage.
Absolutely, the terms being used are incredibly fluid. "you can't be racist to whites" - "Oh, no, white means any person or race that is a benefactor of the patriarchy"
Don't let people like this push you around. Make them define their terms and hold them to their definitions. Never take their terms as a known common understanding.
@@livaveragegamer Redefining what words mean in the moment is the most tiresome tactic.
I mean, I've never spared gaming journalists much thought outside of the one time where we questioned them for not getting through the cuphead tutorial.
Please add game tags for the games in the background.
banger video. when you started quoting kyle around 15:26 my jaw hit the floor. it's *worse* than I thought I knew.
I'm very interested in what's to come. I mainly keep out of online drama, including the current sweet baby inc stuff. So I only know some base facts, I'm really curious what you'll uncover.
oh yeah I forgot to ask last time, have you seen Airplay and did you have any specific thoughts about it?
I don't think I know about Airplay... Unless you are talking about apples wirless projection protocol 😅 Can you tell me anything more about it?
@@livaveragegamer AIRPLAY is a GamerGate documentary made to represent the actual GamerGate side of things. It's one of those in-the-know things.
.... 😭 When you miss a really important piece of information in making a video. I've watched it now. It's a great resource that is more in depth than my work. It gives more context than I could. I wasn't willing to cover certain allegations in that level of depth because I felt like it was distracting from the core talking points. Airplay also covers the history in a lot more detail which is great. I'm sad that no one seems to know about it. I think they need to change the title though
@@livaveragegamer This has been something in the works for years at this point, and there's even a director's cut/part 2 on the patreon/SubscribeStar/whatever it is they used. It's all basically the most underground documentary ever, and AIRPLAY's name has actual significance to the deep lore of GamerGate.
MentisWave, if you don't mind out and out political RUclips discussing this, has also covered not only why the Wikipedia article is stupid wrong about it, but also why people keep wanting to make this about harassment against females, AND why the research on this is shoddy at best.
Signed, an old-head of GamerGate who saw that stuff unfold in real time. Games Urinalism, because I'm gonna call it what it is with that, has been terrible for quite some time and this precedes anything GamerGate by a bit. See the Kane and Lynch 2 review buy scandals and Driv3rGate.
@@Harley_Mitchelly thanks for adding to the conversation, truly appreciate it. Mentiswave is fascinating, his video on the wikipedia page was part of my research so you may see some overlap there.
Thank you for making this.
No problem
This was the culture war basically gearing up. On the side of things I watched at the time. Personal anecdote of course,
This was the shift. At the beginning, it was "freedom of speech". To let everyone speak their mind, and let the good ideas gain ground. Do not stoop to bad tactics like gatekeeping and censorship. Basically taking the moral high ground, and never doing anything the other side was doing.
But as more and more of our hobbies were infected and strip mined, that line of thinking went away. Now it was war. Whatever they were willing to do, do it back to them. It reached a point TODAY, where we are happy that people are losing their jobs to AI in localization. Dimitri Monroe, local femboy has some good words about this;
ruclips.net/video/4FDeFibU07s/видео.htmlsi=Vk3f4ljhZ8dvHSGe
My suggestion, keep your head down, and just vote with your wallet. Don't let the culture war turn you into a scumbag that harasses people.
Wallets are always the best way to vote when it comes to entertainment.
Localizers brought it on themselves
@@ExpertContrarian right? if the AI does a better job, thats your fault, not the tech
The wizard chan thing...during the time of ZQ "harassment" claim is it a well known site during that time?how do you get there?what is the age range of the site visitor?do they have any convicted police record beside fines/summons and etc. I would like to know more but I am not an authority.
I keep seeing all these interesting games so I'm just going to ask this time. What's the game at 28:39.
Secondly, I'm wondering what the game at 18:39 is.
And Thirdly the game at 31:25.
1. Punishing grey raven 2. Romancelvania 3. Soulstice. Always welcome to ask if its about games ✌️
... Side note, I'm not sure if your tag for 1. Was punishing grey raven or... subverse... Do not look up that game unless you are looking for adult content.
Just playing some Halo 3, what a masterpiece, No reason to get a Ps5 series X the old er games are better.
I never had an xbox so I can't really speak to halo 3 without revealing my playstation bias 😂 but you're not wrong. Recent studies are showing it too. Game devs in 2024 don't understand what legacy is beyond a brand name.
A bit off topic, but what are the games from 21:44, 22:02 and 27:40? Looked interesting.
21:44 would be Soulstice
As much as I can empathize with the "just use plain english" sentiment, terminology will always exist to describe very specific things. There certainly is a rampant problem of this terminology losing its meaning when many people have a superficial understanding of it and the meaning rapidly changes. This makes discussions involving said terminology to be counter-productive when two parties are on different pages, but without it discussions can become impossibly verbose.
Additionally, I've noticed a pointedly reactionary drift in which terminology can get co-opted as shorthand to dismiss entire points of view, which I believe deserves to be pointed out and pushed back against because it's frankly disingenuous. A good example of this is "woke".
I think we are in agreement. I could have explained my position better. I use terminology as well but I use established terminology and if I think there will be any confusion then I define it before continuing. I think this needs to be basic etiquette if you want to engage in sensitive topics. But yes, you'll see in part 4 how "diversity" is disingenuously used within the full scope of what it can mean when portrayed as a positive but only defined in the scope of DEI when attempting to apply change. I think we agree on words like "woke" as well. I think you can define it but I also think people use it poorly, same with "reactionary" You are using it correctly. But like... Yes, a lot of people will just react with the least/most charitable base derivative they can to things they don't like/ like. I wonder if attention spans and internet culture has anything to do with it 😂
@@livaveragegamer It now occurs to me that I used "reactionary" incorrectly, or at least not for the meaning I meant. I'm struggling to find a word that adequately describes it, but your description, "a lot of people will just react with the least/most charitable base derivative they can to things they don't like", is a perfect representation of the behavior I'm getting at. Just goes to show that being aware of the problem doesn't make it magically go away 😂
That really wasn't a thing when I was growing up. gamers were there, we or know one really cared to use out loud. Talked about games all the time even the ones we played and or preferred over others. the only time nerd came up or the thought of for any such thing were on movies like revenge of the nerds and the more recently big bang theory. But Games as hole I guess the only people that really got made fun of were the guys playing with pokemon and yugi-oh cards in highschool.
So when one goes through a gamergate, where are they going and where did they come from???
What game is being played in the background at 2:50.
I agree with the last sentiment. There are millions of good people in the gaming space and some of them are even journalists! But it is the small number of assholes on both Gamers' side and the activists on journalists' side that we have a bad connection!
Ugh... gamers rise up?
😅 If only it were that simple.
@@livaveragegamer it is. dont spend your money on the products infested with the nonsense. if what we believe to be true, is those products will die out.
The only agenda is profit. somehow the big producers have been convinced the profit lies with appeasing what most consider to be a vocal minority that doesnt even consume the product. Time will ultimately tell us who is right.
lol gamers are dead, that's among the dumbest shit I've heard journos and others like them have said in a damn good while.
Electric Boogaloo!